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We're Out of Time
What Does an Ambassador Really Do? Gordon Sondland former United States Ambassador to the European Union
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
Former United States Ambassador to the European Union, Gordon Sondland joins the we're out of Time podcast.
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Gordon Sondland
In the movies, an ambassador is someone who is always dressed formally. They're giving parties. There's an orchestra playing in the background, and they're saying very profound things. What an ambassador really is is an agent and a representative of the President of the United States. So when the president can't be in another country and a president can't be in every country at the same time, you as the ambassador are legally and practically stand in my own background. What really gave me an impetus to do this job, to build my own business, was the fact that I'm the son of Holocaust survivors.
- [00:42]
Podcast Host
We're out of Time has reached number three on the Apple Podcast mental health chart. Thank you for listening, supporting, and sharing this journey with us. Please follow the podcast rate and review. And if you're getting value out of we're out of Time, share it with someone else, you know.
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Richard
Hey, Gordon, how you doing?
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Gordon Sondland
Good, Richard. It's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
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Richard
Yeah, pleasure's all mine. So give me an example. Of what. Of one thing that you are working on, if you can.
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Gordon Sondland
Sure. Well, first of all, let's talk about what an ambassador is. In the movies, an ambassador is someone who is always dressed formally. They're giving parties. There's an orchestra playing in the background. People are sipping champagne and eating canapes, and they're saying very profound things to their, you know, foreign interlocutor about the state of the world with respect to our country and that country. And it's sort of this stilted idea that that's what a diplomat is. What an ambassador really is, is an agent and a representative of the President of the United States. So when the president can't be in another country and a president can't be in every country at the same time, you, as the ambassador, are legally and practically his stand in. So you are essentially running a mini White House in the embassy or the mission that you're in charge of. So all of the people that work there, whether they work for the Agriculture Department or the Defense Department or the Commerce or the intelligence community, the CIA or the other Alphabet agencies, they work for you. They don't work for Washington because you are the President of the United States in that as his surrogate in that place. So it comes with an enormous amount of responsibility and an enormous amount of authority because you actually have the right to bind the United States as the president would.
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Richard
You're so likable.
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Gordon Sondland
Not to the Europeans, I wasn't.
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Richard
Why?
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Gordon Sondland
Because I had to give them some hard news about the state of our relationship and some things that President Trump, who was my commander in chief, and every president, Democrat or Republican, has their ambassadors, and they have to deliver sometimes friendly messages, and they have to sometimes deliver tough messages.
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Richard
Yeah, but you make friends with you. You're so easy to make friends with, isn't. It wasn't. I mean, that had to serve you well. So when you were giving people, you know, uncomfortable news, it would be like, oh, you know, love, Gordon, let's work this out. No, a little.
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Gordon Sondland
A little. To be fair, you know, they were. They didn't like the message, and sometimes they would blame the messenger because I also have a fairly informal personality, which doesn't necessarily go over well with some of the stodgier.
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Richard
You know what? That sucks.
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Gordon Sondland
It does.
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Richard
I hate that. That is so weak.
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Gordon Sondland
You want an example?
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Richard
I do.
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Gordon Sondland
So I'll tell you a story. When I first arrived, I had what was called the country team meeting, which is pretty much all of the senior staff at the mission, and we. The mission. You have an embassy or you have a mission? An embassy is the. Is the organization that is the United States sovereign ground within foreign, in a foreign country. So when you're in the US Embassy in France and you're inside the embassy, you're actually in the United States as long as you're in that building. In the case of the eu, we don't have an embassy because the EU is not a country, it's an organization.
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Richard
Right.
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Gordon Sondland
Belgium, where the EU is based, has a US Embassy, and that's the embassy to Belgium, and It has a U.S. ambassador to Belgium. I was next door, and I had the mission to the European Union, which is like an embassy, but it's called a mission.
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Richard
Yeah, but it seems like it's a bigger deal. How many countries are in the EU? 20.
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Gordon Sondland
There were 28 when I started, and we lost one called the UK because that was during Brexit, and they left. So we wound up with 27.
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Richard
That didn't work out well.
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Gordon Sondland
Well, that's a whole other story.
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Richard
Right.
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Gordon Sondland
So when I. When I sat down with the group, initially, when I first got there, I said, you know, I would like to meet with the president of the European Commission, who was sort of Donald Trump's European equivalent. And they looked at me.
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Richard
Don't tell him that.
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Gordon Sondland
One of the serious. One of the senior people looked at me in sort of a condescending way, like, you know, you'll Learn, sir, this is new to you. President Junker, his name was Jean Claude Junker. President Yer is a president, he meets with other presidents. You are an ambassador, you meet with other ambassadors, which was a not so nice way of saying you're way, you know, you're in way over your skis, right?
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Richard
And I look or you're not important to.
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Gordon Sondland
Or you're not important.
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Richard
That's how I would have taken it.
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Gordon Sondland
That fair enough?
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Richard
That, that, did that piss you off?
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Gordon Sondland
Well, I looked at the woman who delivered this message, who was a senior career diplomat, and I said, I am not an ambassador. And she said, what do you mean you're not an ambassador? I said, I'm the ambassador of the United States of America. We're not all created equal. I said, the ambassador from Malta or the ambassador from Senegal, and the ambassador from the United States, not to pick on those two. Other countries do not have the same status, sorry to say. So please communicate with President Yunker's office that I'd like to see him tomorrow, if possible, at 4:00. And I got a lot of eye rolls. I went back to my office. Two hours later, staff member came into my office. Mr. Ambassador, I have some bad news for you. President Junker cannot see you at 4 o' clock tomorrow. You can see you at 3 o' clock. So I said, great, I'll go over. I just want to talk to him. I want to get to know him. He's about to come to the White House, have a meeting with President Trump. I want to see what's on his mind, how we can bridge any gaps before the meeting to make the meeting go better. They said, sir, that's not how it works. We're going to have to have an intensive briefing. We couldn't even believe you could get this meeting. So now we have to have an intensive briefing and you're going to arrive with a delegation of six or eight people, and they're going to have a delegation of six or eight people. And they describe the whole thing. There's going to be a long table with flags on it, and you're going to sit in the middle on what?
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Richard
Horseshit.
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Gordon Sondland
Exactly. So I said, do we really have to do all of this? I just want to talk to the guy. No, this is the way it works. So the next day I go in my motorcade to the EU building, which is called Burlemont, right? And there's a long sort of hallway that enters where the president of the EU SITs. And they said, you need to walk down the hall, and there'll be a backdrop. You're going to stop at the backdrop, he's going to come out, you're going to both turn. There'll be cameras and press. They'll take your picture, and then you'll start the formal meeting. And I thought to myself, that's the last thing I want to do, because the formal meeting will accomplish nothing. Everyone will have their talking points, everyone will have their script, and it'll be polite and nice, but we're not going to get anything done. So as he's coming toward me, I've never met the guy in my life. I've obviously seen him on tv, seen him in the newspaper. He comes walking toward me, I come walking toward him. And as we get within, I don't know, 10, 20ft of each other, I put out my arms like this, and I go, jean Claude. And he looks at me and he goes, gordon gives me a big hug, gives me a kiss. He's a big kisser, right? And I said, john Claude, it was great for you to see me on such short notice. You know, you've put out a spread here. You have all these people. Do you mind if, before we start all of this, that you and I maybe chat for a couple of minutes, one on one? Of course. Come into my office. Go into his office, shut the door, takes off his shoes, sits in his easy chair, lights up a smoke. He was a huge smoker. We never had the meeting outside. They were all sitting there cooling their heels. There were like 20 people waiting.
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Richard
Good.
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Gordon Sondland
And we talked for an hour and a half. We exchanged cell phone numbers, and that was the end of having the career staff interfere with what I thought was a very, very important and impactful process. Because at that point, I just had. I just called him and he called me, and we had none of this, as you call it, horseshit.
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Richard
That's exactly the way it should be. Exactly the way it should be. Two guys who are friendly, who want to work something out and do. It's the other stuff just drives me insane. What I want to talk about is Vladimir Putin, okay? I'm of the belief that he only responds to strength. That's it. Only he doesn't care about anything else other than expansion, power and money. What's your feeling?
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Gordon Sondland
You're dead on. And I think Trump knows that. Here's the rub.
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Richard
So he just gave him a chain. So what's he doing with this? What's he been doing so far?
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Gordon Sondland
Well, again, there's a bigger issue than Ukraine, and the bigger issue is called China. And Russia has been an important conduit for the survival of Iran, for the survival of North Korea, for the survival of several other malign Middle Eastern countries that are not our friends.
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Richard
Right.
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Gordon Sondland
And I think Trump sees the chess move. He's not playing checkers. He's playing chess. And by the way, Putin is not cooperating with the game necessarily. But I know where Trump is trying to go.
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Richard
He's stringing him along because he has no. No intention. He's an animal. He just wants to kill.
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Gordon Sondland
He does. And the way I say it, not to digress, is Putin's factory default setting is, I'm taking Ukraine. That's his factory default setting.
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Richard
And then Moldova, and then wherever else.
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Gordon Sondland
But let's just leave it at Ukraine for the time being, because you're not wrong. So if that's his factory default setting, then there's only one variable in the conversation. When can I get away with it? He could not get away with it under Trump. 1. He clearly could get away with it under Biden, particularly when Biden said something and it was just in passing. And of course, the press smoothed over it. It was covered, to be fair, and it's out there. You can Google the video. But they did not pummel him the way they said. He said, I will not stand. And I'm not quoting, because I don't know the exact words. I. I will not stand for an incursion unless it's a small incursion, and then we'll see what happens. That's what Biden said.
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Richard
You're kidding.
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Gordon Sondland
No. And it's absolutely. You can look it up online. He absolutely said it. Putin's antenna shot straight up when he heard that. Yeah, because he was looking at it in context. He looked at the withdrawal from Afghanistan. He looked at our general global posture, which had been weakening, and that was his signal for the green light come ahead.
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Richard
It was an invitation.
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Gordon Sondland
Absolutely. So now Trump gets into office and he inherits what has already happened. It did not happen under his watch. And he could do the conventional things. What are the conventional things that everyone has done in the past, both Democrat and Republican? He can condemn Putin. He can get on TV every day and call him a murderer, a massacre, an invader, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Putin will sit in the Kremlin and laugh. He doesn't care. Not at all. He can surge weapons to Ukraine and give Zelensky basically a blank check to hit Putin wherever Zelensky wants to hit him, which would basically then force Putin into a corner because Putin can lose the war, but he can only lose it under very certain conditions that don't cause a collapse of his government. If it causes a collapse of his government, he will use nuclear weapons for sure. Without question.
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Richard
Without question. Because all he cares about is himself.
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Gordon Sondland
Exactly, exactly. You're dead on.
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Richard
So how did Trump.
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Gordon Sondland
So that was the conventional way. That's what everyone has done, Democrat or Republican, not pointing fingers at any party. Trump looks at it differently. What he has done in the past with people like Putin, Kim Jong Un and others is he praises them in public. And first of all, it infuriates the liberal media because they actually think that he believes what he's saying and he doesn't. He praises them in, in public, in private, he says things like, I'm not quoting him, but paraphrasing. Vladimir, you're a great guy. You're unbelievable. I mean, everybody bows and scrapes. You live in these beautiful palaces. You're worth hundreds of billions of dollars. God knows how much I love it. But. And I love you, but just remember, if you hit Ukraine, I gotta bomb the shit out of you. I have no choice and I probably have to kill you. But otherwise we're going to get along great. And that's the sort of public, private message he delivers. He tried to do that this time, but the cat was already out of the bag. Putin had already invaded and was actually making gains. He's already pregnant because of the way Biden had been metering both weapons intelligence and also the use of the weapons. That's exactly because the Ukrainians had this Ferrari that had a 20 mile an hour governor on it. You can only drive the Ferrari at 20 miles an hour, even though the Ferrari will go 200. And that's the problem. So now Biden was turning it on, turning it off. And all that did was encourage Putin more and more and more. Because at the end of the day, with even moderate help from the United States, both intel and weapons, we would crush Putin. I mean, Ukraine would crush Putin would.
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Richard
Absolutely crush him with all of our weapons.
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Gordon Sondland
Well, again, even with moderate support, because we. So our, our intelligence, our weapons sophistication, our strategy and our training between the Ukrainian people and our people are far superior to the Russians. Far superior.
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Richard
So how does this end?
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Gordon Sondland
I think the way it ends is that Putin, sadly, is going to wind up with some Ukrainian real estate. But the deal has to be that we fill Ukraine with US people. And I don't mean soldiers, I mean business people. I mean people who are going to mine rare earths I mean, people who are going to set up investment banks in Ukraine are going to rebuild their infrastructure. And so all of a sudden in the next five to 10 years, Ukraine is going to be full of not just Americans, but Europeans and others. And then the message will go out to Putin. Now if you try it again, you're going to be hitting our people, not Ukrainians. And we're not going to stand for that. Which is sort of an implicit article 5, NATO guarantee without inviting Ukraine into NATO.
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Richard
Do you know what I was thinking? I was thinking, remember at the very beginning of the war when they had those quarter of a million soldiers on the border?
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Gordon Sondland
Yes. You mean when they were massing.
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Richard
That's correct, yes. You know, it really bothered me at that time that we didn't send a bunch of soldiers to the Baltics or Poland or wherever and the rest of the EU did as well, just as a show of force, like, hey, dude, you come in here. We're dealing with this. Because I don't think he would have come in. And I also think that if the EU got to get, and I want to know what you think. If the EU got together and each country donated soldiers. Right, and he knew they were coming.
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Gordon Sondland
Well, that's what a NATO force is.
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Richard
But I think they're done. I think, I think he, I think that, I think that right there says to him, I don't want to have to fire nuclear weapons. Then it's over. Then it's over for me, it's over for everybody. I'm going to, I'm going to call it a day. What do you think?
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Gordon Sondland
There's another alternative.
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Richard
Give it to me.
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Gordon Sondland
The other alternative is to let him save face by keeping a few hectares of Ukrainian territory that he had taken recently and changing our entire paradigm with him. In other words, we know you're a butcher, we know you're a thug, we know you're a dictator. Okay, fine, we don't have to revisit that. But you have a strong interest in a realigned relationship with the United States and with the eu. So why don't you join our team, become Team west and let's go deal with China together. And by the way, as we're working on this, North Korea is toast and Iran is toast. That's the deal. That's where Trump really wants to go, I think.
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Richard
And why won't he let Israel bomb the Iranian oil fields and nuclear buildings?
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Gordon Sondland
Because I think he believes he needs to give them one last shot for a complete non enrichment deal. And if they won't do it. I think they're weeks away from doing something.
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Richard
Why does he believe that these animals will keep their word?
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Gordon Sondland
I don't think he does. I think he knows. Look, one thing then.
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Richard
Why does he want to make a deal first? Why does he want to see if there's a deal?
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Gordon Sondland
I really think it's in order to keep global support.
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Richard
Okay, so it's just to exhaust his legislative remedies?
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Gordon Sondland
Well, it's. It's to exhaust, you know, when you're going to hit, because when, when you hit Iran, you can't do it. You can't tiptoe. I mean, you're going to need a huge arsenal of bunker busters because there are centrifuges deep, deep, deep in the ground in Fordo and in Natanz and in other places. We have great intelligence on what's going on in Iran. I'm obviously not going to share it, but we know where all the stuff.
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Richard
Is, and we're not going to share it off camera.
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Gordon Sondland
No, we know what they've got, and it's going to take a big, big effort. And frankly, our Arab friends are going to help in this if there is going to be an action in terms of airspace use, in terms of all kinds of intel and other things. But you can't. This is where you have to kill the snake. You have to cut the head off. You cannot just, you know, throw a couple of lob, a couple of bombs in, do a little bit of damage.
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Richard
No, you got to take these moolahs out. Yeah, but, but here's my fear. The Iranian people are a good people. They're talented people. They're.
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Gordon Sondland
You ask them. They're the smartest people in the world, right?
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Richard
Well, yeah, if you don't believe.
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Gordon Sondland
There are a few of them around here, by the way. And actually, they are. They're pretty smart.
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Richard
So, yeah, just to touch on Putin in Ukraine again, they're going to have to keep the, the land that they've received. All of it. Not a little of it. All of it.
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Gordon Sondland
I don't know.
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Richard
Peace.
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Gordon Sondland
I don't know.
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Richard
There's no way this guy. On my life, you're the expert, but on my life, there is no way this guy is going to give back anything.
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Gordon Sondland
Well, it's not about giving back. It's really about resetting the table. I think when Trump finally decides he's had enough, and you see the first step has already been taken. Mertz, who is the chancellor, new chancellor of Germany, has already committed $5 million. No no, no. But very importantly, the Germans and the NATO countries have a lot of US Weapons that are in their arsenals. They've been transferred to them for NATO purposes. Those weapons have been sent to Ukraine.
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Richard
Really?
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Gordon Sondland
Yes, a long time ago. But those weapons had the same restrictions on them as weapons that were directly supplied by the US and the Germans.
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Richard
Just took them off.
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Gordon Sondland
And the Germans just took them off. You notice the United States did not object. The United States said, don't you dare. Any US Weapon, I don't care who owns it, you are not to shoot more than five miles over the line or whatever. They haven't done it. And Trump is letting the Europeans take the lead here, but the next move will be for us to surge some weapons and also take the gloves off. Then Putin will be in a position to decide whether he really does want to sit down and have a serious conversation, because, first of all, he'll be displaced from some of the territory he's already taken, and they may push further into Russian territory. So Nord Stream 2 was at the bane of Trump's existence in his first term.
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Richard
Why?
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Gordon Sondland
Well, because all it did was forget about gas. It supplied gas to the. To the Europeans, which they became hooked on. It was like a depend. You know, this. This actually might be in your wheelhouse, which is about dependence.
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Richard
Right.
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Gordon Sondland
They became dependent on Russian gas, which was cheap compared to any other gas they could get.
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Richard
That's right.
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Gordon Sondland
And there was an enormous gush of Western dollars flowing into Russia, and that's what enabled Russia to gear up for this invasion.
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Richard
Why was there American money being funneled to Russia?
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Gordon Sondland
Well, it was European money.
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Richard
Oh, it was European.
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Gordon Sondland
It was European.
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Richard
Okay.
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Gordon Sondland
Western money.
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Richard
Why don't they cut off the. First of all, didn't they go ahead. Didn't the EU go ahead and get together like, a year, year and a half ago and say, we're not buying any more Russian oil?
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Gordon Sondland
Well, so, first of all, someone sabotaged the pipeline.
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Richard
Oh, good.
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Gordon Sondland
So Zelensky did it. And it's. And it shut down. We don't know who did it.
- [23:21]
Richard
You're the best.
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Gordon Sondland
We don't know that.
- [23:23]
Richard
I want to meet you so bad. I want you on this podcast so bad. I can't take it.
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Gordon Sondland
We don't know who did it, but.
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Richard
Right. I don't either.
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Gordon Sondland
But the bottom line is what Trump wanted to do was to say, look, let's curtail your use of that gas, because all it's doing is giving Putin a pile of money to commit malign activities, and let's sell You U. S. Gas. They use the term freedom gas. It's going to cost you a little more.
- [23:53]
Richard
Is that like the Gulf of America?
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Gordon Sondland
Like the Gulf of America, dude, I.
- [23:56]
Richard
Swear to God, I call it the Gulf of America now.
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Gordon Sondland
Yeah, everyone does.
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Richard
Do they?
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Gordon Sondland
People are saying. I mean, everyone I'm talking to, people everywhere are saying it's called the Gulf of America. It's the. It's the biggest and best golf I've ever seen.
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Richard
It's a gorgeous goal.
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Gordon Sondland
It's a gorgeous. It's a beautiful gulf. We don't do anything but beautiful gulfs, right?
- [24:15]
Richard
No.
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Gordon Sondland
And now we have the Arabian Gulf instead of the Persian Gulf.
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Richard
He calls it the Arabian.
- [24:20]
Gordon Sondland
It's now called the Arabian.
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Richard
Why?
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Gordon Sondland
Well, because in honor of our new hosts in Saudi Arabia.
- [24:27]
Richard
That makes sense.
- [24:28]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah. We're going to rename a lot of.
- [24:29]
Richard
Things that makes sense.
- [24:30]
Gordon Sondland
But back to what we asked the Europeans to do is we wanted to start a superhighway across the Atlantic sending LNG ships, liquid natural gas ships back and forth to Portugal, which is sort of the closest point of, you know, disembarkation in Europe between the US And Europe, and basically wean them off of their need for any cheap Russian gas so that it would, number one, lower Russia's leverage. They would have no more leverage because they couldn't shut the valve off. They say, fine, shut the valve off. We're not using your gas anyway. And number two, it would shut off the pipe. The, you know, flow of money to Russia from the. From the eu And Trump, you know, beat that issue senseless through me and through other ambassadors, and the EU was too hooked. It was like crack for them. I mean, it fueled their off. How do they get off?
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Richard
How did they get off? Or are we still.
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Gordon Sondland
Or they're still. They're still taking some of it.
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Richard
This is why.
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Gordon Sondland
Because there are multiple pipes, not just Nord Stream 2.
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Richard
But why would they buy any?
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Gordon Sondland
But now that the invasion has happened, all of a sudden they become very sober, because when this was going on during Trump one, they never thought that Russia would invade again. They had a very, very Pollyannish view of Russia.
- [25:49]
Richard
Why did they not believe it? It was Georgia, it was Crimea. Why did they not believe it could happen again?
- [25:56]
Gordon Sondland
Because that was then and now is now.
- [25:58]
Richard
Got it.
- [25:58]
Gordon Sondland
You know, we have short memories, okay? And I'll tell you, the mood in Europe between 2017 and 2020, which were the Trump years, first Trump years, they thought the, you know, the crying of wolf was completely overblown. Putin is our friend. We're doing business in Russia. He's doing business with us. He's selling us cheap gas. You guys are just starting. Trying to start fights everywhere. That was their attitude, right? Not everyone's. The Easterners. Knew exactly what Putin was up to, right? But the French, the Germans, the Italians, the Dutch, they. They very, very Pollyannish.
- [26:41]
Richard
And Eastern Europeans, they. They had religion. But the other guy.
- [26:45]
Gordon Sondland
Exactly, exactly. But the way the EU works is, first of all, a lot of things in the EU require unanimity. Can you imagine if everything Congress did required a 100% vote? Nothing would get done. Nothing. There's always going to be someone who says no. And that's what the EU faces in almost everything they do.
- [27:06]
Richard
But NATO does the same thing.
- [27:08]
Gordon Sondland
They do. But NATO, the stakes are different in NATO. NATO, you're talking about, you know, nuclear war. You're talking about life and death in Europe, you could be talking about something as simple as, should we sell. Allow the Americans to sell chicken, you know, which they consider chlorinated chicken. It's not. It's actually very sanitary, chicken. We don't get diseases like they do from their chicken because we clean it with a vinegar solution and they call it chlorine. So they say, we don't want to eat your chlorinated chicken. So I sort of asked the group at the European Roundtable one day. I had them all in the heads of every major European company. Were there like 30 people? I said, let me ask you guys a question before we start our lunch and our program. How many of you have a place in the US like an apartment or a house or a condo or something? Everyone raised their hand. Everyone has something in the US because they're here all the time. I said, so let me understand how this works. When you travel to your apartment in New York, do you have your car flown over to New York so you have something to drive? And do you have all your food shipped over to your apartment from Europe? Because you can't possibly drive our cars or eat our food. It's not safe or healthy. And they all laughed and they said, I think the chairman of one of the big companies, who I will not name, said, this has nothing to do with safety or quality. This is all protectionism. And that's what Trump is livid about.
- [28:34]
Richard
Right? Why isn't there a free trade throughout the world? It seems like that would be something that, I mean, to a layperson, okay, it seems like that's something that would resolve all of this.
- [28:49]
Gordon Sondland
Well, Trump proposed that to Junker. The guy that kissed me and took me into his office right early on in the trade negotiations. He said, why don't we try something like this, Jean Claude, why don't we drop all the tariffs, all the non tariff barriers to entry, which is really his issue. It's not about the terrorists, it's about all the rules and the regulations and you can't do this and you can't do that and we're going to fine you and we're going to sue you. Let's drop all of that. We can sell you anything we want to sell you. You can sell us anything you want to sell us. If people don't want to buy the stuff, that's, that's the problem of whoever made it.
- [29:27]
Richard
And you would think that's a better deal for every other country but us because we're the biggest consumers in the world.
- [29:34]
Gordon Sondland
Exactly, exactly. We have the biggest market. The Europeans, by the way, were not interested in that because they want to protect their farmers, they want to protect their automobile industry. They believe without protection they will lose the global war and the global economic battle. That's what they will.
- [29:53]
Richard
What's the solution to this? Like, how does this end?
- [29:57]
Gordon Sondland
Well, I just wrote an op ed today which I believe is going to be published tomorrow on a major site, major network, and it basically says the Europeans this time are going to need to cross their own red lines and give Trump a win on this. Because every president for 40 years has asked the Europeans to drop some of these trade barriers. And they've said no. But they haven't said no. What they've done is they've said, this is very interesting, we'll take this under advisement, we'll get back to you. And to use Trump's term, they just tap the US along and nothing happens. So for the first time, Trump said, okay, fine. While you're thinking about it, it's a 50% tariff which essentially shuts them down. And all of a sudden, within hours, forget about days, weeks, months, years, within hours, the phone rings. Okay, okay, okay. We want to talk. So now they have until, I believe it's July 9, to make a deal. I noticed that the Federal Trade Court just tried to stop these tariffs. I think that's temporary. I think that's going to get overturned or there are so many loopholes in the, in the law anyway, it's like Swiss cheese. Trump will figure out and his team will figure out how to impose these tariffs if the Europeans do not relent on some of their protectionist policies. I really believe that.
- [31:26]
Richard
So that was. That was beautiful and very much appreciated because it drives me insane. Is there anything you want to talk about? Anything you want to get out?
- [31:36]
Gordon Sondland
Well, I mean, just my own background. What really gave me an impetus to do this job, to build my own business was the fact that I'm the son of Holocaust survivors. You know, they. My parents met in Germany. They're both German. They met when they were very young. My mother married my father when she was 15, had my sister when she was 16. My father. They both had to escape Nazi Germany. My father joined the French Foreign Legion. That's the only way he could get out. And was captured and then joined the British army later. And. And, you know, stayed in Europe and fought the war where my mother left for Uruguay, where a lot of European Jews went. Uruguayans took them in, gave birth to my sister. And so my father saw my sister for the first time when she was about seven. And then they ultimately resettled in the United States with nothing and started over again. So it's an. It's a very, very moving background. I was the first in my family born in the United States.
- [32:39]
Richard
Do you know, that's such an. That's so interesting because we're both Jewish, right?
- [32:46]
Gordon Sondland
How can you tell?
- [32:48]
Richard
Because you're handsome as can be, of course. It's like looking in the mirror.
- [32:53]
Gordon Sondland
And we're so annoying, too, Larry.
- [32:56]
Richard
I mean, we're not exactly.
- [32:57]
Gordon Sondland
Curb your enthusiasm. Yeah, no, well, you know, I. I have a very close friend who can't stand watching that show because she says it's. It's her, it's me.
- [33:08]
Richard
Yeah. I don't watch it.
- [33:09]
Gordon Sondland
I don't need. I don't need any more of you. I'm already, already seeing it in you. What do I need to watch Larry David do the same thing?
- [33:16]
Richard
And the funny part is, is he lives on my street, the Hill. Right. And he lives on Napoli. Right. And I've been avoiding him since 2015 because I don't live on the golf course side of the street. I love. I live on the other side of the tracks. Right. And if you run where the poor people live. That's right, where the poor people live.
- [33:44]
Gordon Sondland
Okay.
- [33:45]
Richard
And a tough neighborhood. And what happened is, I was told by many people, rich, you're not going to be able to handle it, because if you ever walk up to him and say, oh, we're neighbors, we're on the same street, he's going to look at you and say, really? What hole? So I've been avoiding him for 10.
- [34:08]
Gordon Sondland
Years because you don't want to tell him there is no hole.
- [34:10]
Richard
I don't want to do it.
- [34:11]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah.
- [34:12]
Richard
I can't do it. Right. So that's his thing. But what I wanted to say was, ever since October 7th, I have never been more proud to be Jewish. Never. I got into a car accident right after it happened with some guy, and he gets out of the car just screaming and belligerent. And I know he's Jewish. I mean, I just know it. We know, right?
- [34:39]
Gordon Sondland
It's Judah.
- [34:40]
Richard
It's Judah. We have Jude R. We do have Judah. And I look at this guy and I go, hey, baby. After last week, we don't treat each other like that anymore. And he goes, where?
- [34:52]
Gordon Sondland
Mishpocha?
- [34:53]
Richard
He goes, you're right. And I gave him a hug. I said, this is just things.
- [34:56]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah.
- [34:57]
Richard
Don't worry about it. Okay.
- [35:00]
Gordon Sondland
There are some gentiles that own insurance companies that will pay for this.
- [35:03]
Podcast Host
That's.
- [35:04]
Richard
That's correct. These wasps in Connecticut. Right. We'll take care of this.
- [35:09]
Gordon Sondland
They'll take care of it.
- [35:10]
Richard
You're so funny. You're such a good time crazy. How did you feel? I mean, I know how I felt. Okay. I was kid happy, remember? Kid happy?
- [35:22]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah.
- [35:22]
Richard
It's like you weren't kid happy. The last time you were kid happy was probably when you were a kid. Right. Okay, me too. Except for when the pagers went off and then the next day when the walkie talkies went off and took out their entire command structure. What was on your mind that will.
- [35:44]
Gordon Sondland
Go down in history, by the way, as one of the most successful intelligence operations ever.
- [35:50]
Richard
Ever.
- [35:50]
Gordon Sondland
Because the amount of time and effort and planning, what it was like seven years, the years that went by to do that, and the fact that they were able to keep it such close hold because, you know, that would have otherwise leaked and someone who was within the need to know that potentially didn't have the same political leanings as the people who initiated that, would have leaked it to the media and it would have been a disaster.
- [36:20]
Richard
So it had to be just a few people dealing with it.
- [36:24]
Gordon Sondland
It was one of the biggest secrets that Israel had. And it was so effective, not because of its lethality, but because of its shock value.
- [36:36]
Richard
Right.
- [36:36]
Gordon Sondland
That something that's so intimate as your personal device that is in your pocket, that someone else has control over it and can kill you, there is a shock value to that that is beyond any amount of boom that, you know, that these explosives were able to generate.
- [36:56]
Richard
I heard these people wouldn't even turn on a computer Or a television. They were, like, afraid of their toaster.
- [37:03]
Gordon Sondland
And they also know this isn't the end. Israel has other tricks up its sleeve. They know this is not a one and done.
- [37:11]
Richard
Yeah, I've. I've never been. I've never been more proud.
- [37:16]
Gordon Sondland
So now we have a situation in Gaza. And of course, again, Trump starts the conversation with an extreme position, which is an interesting position. He's saying, okay, the U.S. is going to take over Gaza and we're going to redevelop it into a luxury area.
- [37:34]
Richard
How's that going to work?
- [37:35]
Gordon Sondland
Well, but think about what he's actually saying.
- [37:39]
Richard
Cut a deal or I'm taking your shit.
- [37:41]
Gordon Sondland
No, not necessarily. What he's saying is, do I want to do this? Do I have other things to do in the world other than develop Gaza? Yes, but I haven't heard from anyone. I haven't heard from the Egyptians, I haven't heard from Assadis, I haven't heard from the Qataris. I haven't heard from anyone that will do this. Who's going to fix this problem? You have a piece of dirt on the Mediterranean that is Swiss cheese right now. You have tunnels underground, everywhere on.
- [38:11]
Richard
One second, I just need to interrupt you.
- [38:13]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah.
- [38:13]
Richard
That thing should never, ever, ever, ever be rebuilt. It should stand as a monument. A monument to around and find out. Otherwise it never ends. It needs to stand as a monument to. This is what's happening to you if you screw around.
- [38:34]
Gordon Sondland
See, I don't agree with that.
- [38:36]
Richard
I want to know why.
- [38:37]
Gordon Sondland
Well, because I do think there is a path forward here, but it's going to take a long time. It's going to take a lot of money. And what it needs to be is it needs to be a community project. And by community, I mean, yes, it needs to involve the Israelis because their security is immediately impacted because of the proximity. It needs to involve all of the Abraham Accords signatories, and hopefully the Saudis will sign on soon. And it needs to be a project where Hamas cannot take root again because there's too many other people there who want to do business, who want to live their lives, who want to make deals. Israel and the US are providing security along with others, not just Israel and the us and all of a sudden, what it does is it denies Hamas a place to exist. And that's the key. But it's going to take an enormous amount of money and time to get the land ready to build on. You can't build on Swiss cheese.
- [39:34]
Richard
Why do you. Why do you think it's A good idea. Why do you think it's better than the idea of leaving it?
- [39:43]
Gordon Sondland
Because I don't think we need any more Holocaust memorials and any more shrines to destruction. I think what we need to do is to move forward and have a great piece of real estate, generate housing for people of Arabs and Jews. I think we need to have economic development there. I mean, I think they're animals.
- [40:04]
Richard
They're going to lob rockets in all the time. It's like, not the French Riviera. Well, I mean, it's great real estate. Don't get me wrong.
- [40:12]
Gordon Sondland
There are groups that are animals and there are groups that. I mean, look at the Arabs living in Israel and peacefully coexist. Different. They are different. But those are the kinds of Arabs you want living in Gaza.
- [40:23]
Richard
Well, those are the kind of God, but they're not.
- [40:26]
Gordon Sondland
But they will be. Especially if the entire area is now controlled by a community not by Iran, not by Israel, but by a little bit of everyone, including the U.S. by the way, I think the U.S. has a role there.
- [40:40]
Richard
I think there's a better chance of me sleeping with Charlize Theron.
- [40:45]
Gordon Sondland
What time's your date?
- [40:47]
Richard
If that girl's smart, she didn't have anything to do with me, that's for sure. So you're the best storyteller and really the best interviewer. So thank you for carrying me today.
- [40:59]
Gordon Sondland
I don't think so.
- [41:00]
Richard
Oh, definitely. Where was your talk with President Vice President Pence? Was it in Florida or was it in the Hamptons?
- [41:08]
Gordon Sondland
I think it was in the Hamptons.
- [41:11]
Richard
I think you're right.
- [41:11]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah, it was in the Hamptons.
- [41:12]
Richard
And so I was speaking there. And right after me, you come on with the vice president, which did not suck, by the way. Made me feel really good.
- [41:25]
Gordon Sondland
We followed you.
- [41:26]
Richard
Right? Right afterwards.
- [41:27]
Gordon Sondland
Yes, that's right.
- [41:28]
Richard
And you come on stage with him, and he's not a comedian. Okay, Very good man. Nice man, loves his country, but he's not a comedian. And you carried that interview so magnificently. I thought this man should have somebody on the talk show.
- [41:52]
Gordon Sondland
Well, Mike is a very, very good person. Right, I got it. And I am really sorry about the rift that occurred between he and President Trump. I like them both very much. I understand why the rift occurred, and I don't expect the vice president, who thought that, A, his life was truly in danger for a moment, and B, that he had no choice other than to do what he did by not going along with the notion that he could somehow interfere in the election process. Trust me, if Anyone wanted to be vice president for another term, it was Mike Pence. He truly enjoyed that job. He truly enjoyed serving with President Trump. He was one of the most important, if not the most important voice in the room talking to President Trump when no one else was in the room. He was sometimes the last voice. So all of those things basically lean toward, yes, I want to keep doing this at all costs, but not at the cost of violating the Constitution or breaking the law. I don't want it that badly.
- [43:04]
Richard
Can I ask you about China for a second? And I know you're not an expert on fentanyl, but one of the things, I like that president, I call him the fentanyl president. Right. One of the things that he's doing right now, I believe, with the tariffs, is getting China's head. Right. Because they're the most surveilled country in the world. They know where all their citizens are at all times. So they're looking the other way when the precursor chemicals to make fentanyl are being shipped to Mexico, right?
- [43:38]
Gordon Sondland
Well, I don't think they're looking the other way. I think they're complicit.
- [43:41]
Richard
No, no, that's what I mean.
- [43:42]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah.
- [43:42]
Richard
If by looking the other way, they are complicit.
- [43:45]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah, no, I mean, I think they're assisting in the effort, not just saying, go ahead.
- [43:48]
Richard
Oh, I don't think they're assisting in the effort.
- [43:50]
Gordon Sondland
Oh, you don't?
- [43:50]
Richard
I don't. I don't think they have to. I think it's motivated by money and she just turns us.
- [43:56]
Gordon Sondland
Well, it. It also is. Is a way of exercising soft power, which is you get people hooked or killed on that substance. And, you know, they don't have to shoot a bullet at an enemy. They let the enemy kill themselves with that drug.
- [44:11]
Richard
Oh, it's worse than that. Because, you know, I own Carrera Treatment center, right. And I also own an affordable center called One Method. And I've been treating the military and veterans for the last 17 years. And I've realized that under the last year and a half, when you walk into treatment, you do an assessment, you walk up to the nurse and she says, what are you using? How much? How long? In the whole health history, right? These people are swearing up and down that they're not doing fentanyl. And they're not lying because half of them or more than half are saying, yeah, I'm doing fentanyl. But the ones that swear up and down that they're not doing fentanyl are doing fentanyl. But they don't know they're doing it. And so I think it's a national security issue. You know, what do you think President Trump is doing to curtail the fentanyl coming? China, sending precursor chemicals to Mexico? Because I think he's done a really good job with the border and not letting fentanyl in.
- [45:29]
Gordon Sondland
Well, you notice that the top of the list, whenever he brings up our trade issues with China and people are saying, what do you want China to do? And there's the usual litany of things we want China to do. Stop stealing our ip, you know, stop stealing our intel, sending people to the university here where we have a free open university system. You're sending your people basically just to steal for you. You know, stop copying our stuff. I mean, that's the usual litany of complaints we have against China. Stop subsidizing industries unnaturally to give them an advantage they would never have but for state subsidies. There's a whole list of the stops. What he's done is he's moved fentanyl to the top of the list. He talks about fentanyl all the time when he talks about China. They're the number one producer of the precursors, and as you say, they're turning their head the other way. So I think he's bringing it to the top of the agenda, where it's going to go and what the Chinese can prove to him tangibly to show that they've actually changed policy. I'm not enough of an expert to know the answer to that.
- [46:41]
Richard
You want to know? It's funny. I read something about you on the way here that was exactly like me. I heard, and correct me if I'm wrong, I heard one time you were talking about turn down service and if a light bulb is out, you go insane. And is that true?
- [47:01]
Gordon Sondland
Sure.
- [47:02]
Richard
The funniest one of my hotels.
- [47:03]
Gordon Sondland
Absolutely.
- [47:04]
Richard
Do you know the funniest thing is, is I run my place like I'm shub night. If there is a light bulb out, I lose my mind. If turndown service isn't perfect, I. I lose my mind. I expect perfection. That's it, just perfection. And I expect them to meet someone's need before they know they have a need.
- [47:27]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah, it's called anticipatory hospitality.
- [47:31]
Richard
Oh, is that what they call it?
- [47:32]
Gordon Sondland
Well, everybody has their own name for it. You know, I remember one of my favorite hotels in the world, actually. It's just down the street, the Peninsula, Beverly Hills.
- [47:42]
Richard
Fantastic.
- [47:43]
Gordon Sondland
One of the best run hotels. And I remember getting into my car, I Was going out for the day on business. And the valets, you know, are trained to be friendly and make small talk, not just hand you your keys, Right. So they reach in and help you with your seatbelt. That's one of the things they're trained to do. They offer you water and they said, you know, Mr. Sondland, did you have a good night's sleep? And they're expecting me to say, yes, it was great, blah, blah, blah. I said, you know, as a matter.
- [48:09]
Richard
Of fact, I stayed up all night doing blow.
- [48:12]
Gordon Sondland
I said, I made some comment about I had a stiff neck or I wasn't sleeping well the night before. He said, I'm so sorry to hear that. Never thought any more about it. I went out for the day and.
- [48:21]
Richard
They brought you Tylenol and Advil.
- [48:23]
Gordon Sondland
No. I got back to my room, probably six o' clock. I go in the room and fanned out on the bed are six different pillows with a note saying, perhaps one of these pillows will help your stiff neck tonight.
- [48:36]
Richard
So magnificent.
- [48:38]
Gordon Sondland
So here is a valet who has nothing to do with housekeeping.
- [48:41]
Richard
That's right.
- [48:41]
Gordon Sondland
Clearly communicating the message. The housekeeping department. Because he picked up on my cue. It wasn't just small talk to him. He was genuinely interested. Because if it was just small talk, that would have been the end of it. He would have taken his tip and moved on to the next car. But he took the time to walk to the phone, call the housekeeping supervisor and say, Mr. Sondland just left. He's in room whatever. Please give him some pillows. He has a neck problem.
- [49:07]
Richard
If you knew his name, I would go to the Peninsula right after this and hire him.
- [49:11]
Gordon Sondland
This happened years ago, but it's an example.
- [49:13]
Richard
Well, now he's. Now he's.
- [49:15]
Gordon Sondland
Now he's. He bought his own hotel.
- [49:16]
Richard
That's right.
- [49:17]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah, exactly.
- [49:18]
Richard
That's right.
- [49:18]
Gordon Sondland
But no, I'm. I'm the same way. And, you know, hospitality is in my blood. And that's why I hate staying at my own hotels because I can never relax.
- [49:27]
Richard
No, no, I won't.
- [49:29]
Gordon Sondland
Even if you're going to go to treatment, you're going to go to someone else's treatment center, right? Yeah.
- [49:33]
Richard
I'm not going to need treatment.
- [49:34]
Gordon Sondland
Good.
- [49:34]
Richard
I'm going to be okay.
- [49:35]
Gordon Sondland
Good.
- [49:36]
Richard
Yeah, man, this was the best time ever.
- [49:41]
Gordon Sondland
Good. Did that work out?
- [49:43]
Richard
Did it work out?
- [49:43]
Gordon Sondland
Yeah. Well, I don't know. I haven't seen your show.
- [49:45]
Richard
I had the ambassador to the European Union on my podcast in my home who's about to take a sandwich with him. Yeah, it worked out well for me.
- [49:57]
Gordon Sondland
That's great. Yeah, I was really enjoyed doing it. Hey, thank you.
- [50:01]
Richard
See you next Tuesday.
- [50:03]
Gordon Sondland
If you or a loved one is struggling, we have a number that you can call and we'll help you find the best treatment that is right for you. Our company, One Call Placement, is dedicated to helping you and we'll find the best treatment that is right for you. So call now at 888-808-6159. Again, that's 888-808-6159.
- [50:29]
Podcast Host
We're out of time. Please subscribe on YouTube, click the thumbs up and leave a comment. Please subscribe on Apple, Please podcast and Spotify and leave a rating and a review and share the we're out of time podcast with others you know who will get value out of it. See you next Tuesday.