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Why Your Emotional Wounds Are Slowly Destroying You — Dr. Guy Winch on Rejection, Loneliness & Healing
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- [00:00]
Dr. Guy Winch
At a time when we're actually supposed to be reviving our confidence, reviving our self esteem, reminding ourselves what we do bring to the table so that we feel good about ourselves, we do the opposite.
- [00:29]
Podcast Host
If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement. That's 888-831-1581 and if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. One call placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers. Joining me today is my friend, psychologist Dr. Guy Winch, who has spent years studying something we all experience but rarely treat properly, emotional pain. He's the author of the book Emotional First Aid and his TED talk on the subject has been viewed by millions of people around the world. His work focuses on the everyday emotional injuries. People experience. Things like rejection, loneliness, failure and heartbreak and why we tend to ignore those wounds until they start affecting our mental health, our relationships, and sometimes even lead to destructive coping behaviors. Guy, it's great to have you with us. Guy. You talk about emotional first aid, treating rejection, failure and loneliness before they fester. In my world, untreated emotional pain is one of the main drivers of addiction. How often do you think addiction is really just untreated emotional injury?
- [01:46]
Dr. Guy Winch
I think most of the time, I mean, addiction is people trying to find a solution to emotional pain. Essentially, if they weren't in pain, then they would have less need to use substances to numb that pain, to distract from that pain. It doesn't necessarily start that way, but it ends up in that way. And loneliness especially is hugely significant when it comes to addiction because not feeling that sense of belonging and then feeling a sense of belonging around other people who are using in the same way that you are using is a major issue.
- [02:29]
Podcast Host
Yeah, for sure. You've talked about, actually you've said that people ignore emotional wounds the way they used to ignore infections before antibiotics. In addiction treatment, we see the end result of that every day. What's the earliest moment someone should intervene with emotional first aid so that it doesn't turn into something destructive?
- [02:57]
Dr. Guy Winch
Oh, immediately. In other words, if you fall down and scrape your knee and it's bleeding, you're not going to ask yourself, how long should I wait before I actually decide to do something about that wound? You'll treat it. And that's what I believe should be be the case when it comes to emotional wounds. Now, not all wounds require immediate treatment. Many of them we can just shrug off and just keep going and it'll hurt for a bit, but then we'll be okay. But let's use rejection as an example. You know, it's a, it's a dating situation, it's a work situation, you got a friend situation, you got rejected. That's going to be painful for most people. Whether you need to do something to revive your self esteem in that moment to, you know, get your mood back to a better place depends on how long that in how sharp that pain is, how long you're carrying it. Some people were like, okay, I just got rejected after a first date. That's going to sting for now, but I'll be fine. You don't necessarily have to do something. But some people are like, I just got rejected from a first date and I literally, I sat there imagining this person will be my future spouse and all and suddenly like, oh no, now you have to do something because that's a much bigger, deeper cut, as it were. So the idea of emotional first aid is like, it's a, it's a toolkit that you have at home. It's a, it's a, it's a first aid box for emotions that you need to, to have and apply and you apply them when necessary.
- [04:19]
Podcast Host
You're so right sized about everything. I just can't stop smiling. I'm so happy to have you here. I don't have the words. Okay, what's the emotional injury you see most often that people pretend doesn't matter but actually changes the entire direction of their life?
- [04:39]
Dr. Guy Winch
There are many. The one I see most lately, just because of where my focus is lately, is burnout. People who are burnt out at work and they don't realize they're burnt out. They think that, no, I'm just grinding, I'm like, you're definitely grinding yourself into the ground is what you're doing. In other words, they are numb, they are exhausted all the time. They've know, kind of withdrawn from life in every other aspect. In many cases they're using substances to get through the day, to get through the overworking. The many industries where the expectation is of overworking is so baked in that so many people start using substances just to be able to, you know, whatever forms of amphetamines, et cetera, opioids, whatever. And they don't realize that oh no, this is a problem. This is not normative coping. This is not just like, oh, I'm tired because I work a lot. This is absolute burnout. This is you really propping yourself up artificially because it's not sustainable otherwise what you're doing. And the price they pay in terms of their health is significant. The World Health Organization has a stat that says around 750,000 thousand people a year die from overworking. Literally, it, it kills them and people.
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Podcast Host
You're kidding.
- [06:08]
Dr. Guy Winch
No, I'm not. And people are just entirely unaware how dangerous that is.
- [06:13]
Podcast Host
You know, that was a surprising answer to me. I did not see that coming. And the reason I didn't see it coming was because Covid, after Covid, it felt to me like everyone was apathetic and nobody wanted to work anymore. Right. People don't work in the office anymore. They work at home. Everybody's got their side hustles and, you know, making money on social media and stuff like that. I don't that. That surprised me. That really did.
- [06:44]
Dr. Guy Winch
But that's a paradox, right? Because what happened, you're absolutely right about COVID What Covid did is it let people feel, I have much more control now over my work life. I can work from home a lot of the time. I can do a side hustle and control those kinds of hours. It gave this illusion that people were regaining control. We had the whole quiet quitting movement to supposedly, you know, rectify the work life balance and make, you know, and add balance to the work life balance. And also companies because of COVID at the time were like, oh, we really need to pay attention. Here are all our resources for, you know, to manage stress in the workplace and all of that. But at the same time that people were regaining control and refocused on a better work life balance, and at the same time, the companies were providing all these resources over the past few years, work stress and burnout are at peak highs. In other words, work stress kept going up, burnout keeps going up. So that's not working and it's not working because psychologically, when we have to keep our eye on the ball and we don't, we don't realize when we're burnt out, we don't realize how much we bring work stresses home into the home. I'll give you one more stat that, you know, like studies show that when one person is really stressed out at their job, their partner will start to develop symptoms of burnout, because that's how much it'll transfer from one person to another. People are completely unaware of these.
- [08:16]
Podcast Host
Well, sure, because it's a heavy. Sure, because it's a heavy weight to carry, right? Dr. It's a heavy weight to carry because you come home, you're burned out, you're stressed, you're giving it to your spouse. Right. And now she's forced to carry all of that. So that makes complete sense.
- [08:33]
Dr. Guy Winch
Except people think that they don't. People think like, no, I leave it at the door. No, I don't. You know, I try and hide it from my family and I'm like, you can't hide it from you. That is the correct response. Thank you. I try not to respond that way when people say that to me, but that is the correct response. Of course. You can't do that.
- [08:49]
Podcast Host
Well, it's only because I knew that that was the only response. Right. That was the only response to have to something like that.
- [08:57]
Dr. Guy Winch
Yeah.
- [08:58]
Podcast Host
All right. You've spent years helping people understand emotional health. Why are we so good at treating physical injuries but often neglect emotional ones?
- [09:10]
Dr. Guy Winch
My science, psychology, has done a terrible job of public relations. You know, they have done a terrible job convincing people that this is a science with a lot of known things. There's a ton we don't know, of course, but there's a lot we do. We've been a science for over 120 years, you know, and there is no mechanism to get that information out to the public. On the physical front, we're literally like 100 years behind where we are, 75 years behind where we are physically. There can be a study about, oh, here's a new trend, trans fat that somebody found, and everyone. Oh, let's read about that. But the basics people don't know. People don't know how to define loneliness, let alone if they're experiencing. They can't distinguish between sadness and depression. They can't distinguish between worry and anxiety. The basic things about their mental operating system people do not know. And again, I blame us. There is no way that we've brought this information out. We don't teach basic things at schools, which we should. We failed people in that regard.
- [10:20]
Podcast Host
Well, there's help on the way.
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Dr. Guy Winch
Yes.
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Podcast Host
Okay. How do you think AI is going to help bridge that knowledge gap?
- [10:32]
Dr. Guy Winch
First of all, I will only be able to bridge the knowledge gap to the extent that people avail themselves of those tools and actually seek that information. And again, there needs to be a basic understanding of what goes wrong or, you know, like a basic curiosity that people need to develop because they don't at the moment about what is going on with me. I am sure that you've seen time and again that you ask people what they're feeling in a certain situation, and they do not have a clue because they don't know how to check in and assess what am I feeling? And if they Come back. It's with an answer. I am feeling. And the answer is usually not even a feeling. Okay, I'm feeling blah. I'm feeling, you know, I'm feeling meh. Like that doesn't tell me anything about what you're feeling. Feeling has come in many, many strands. We have many of them at once with different intensities, but people aren't even, you know, knowledgeable enough. And again, not their fault that no one taught them, but they are knowledgeable enough to actually do and figure out, okay, I'm feeling a little bit of this and a lot of that and some of this. And to be able to accurately figure out what they might need help with. What they are using AI for right now is relationships. Here I'm going to upload all my texts with the person that I'm dating and you tell me if they love me that they're doing.
- [11:51]
Podcast Host
Your TED Talk on emotional first aid has reached millions of people. What do you think resonates most about
- [11:59]
Dr. Guy Winch
that message in that TED Talk? I the continual thread throughout the talk is this comparison between how we prioritize our physical health over our emotional health. And I begin the talk by talking about the fact that I'm an identical twin. And when you're an identical twin, you become an expert at spotting favoritism. Why did he get this and I didn't? And therefore that I notice this favoritism, I notice this thing. And then I talk about very personal things that have happened in my relationship with my brother that brought up emotional, different emotional wounds and what we know about them, what we don't know about them, how we treat them, how we don't treat them, I think that making it personal, talking about my relationship with my identical twin is something that drives the curiosity. But I also think that talking about feelings and emotional wounds, like loneliness or like rejection or like failure, like rumination, talking about these things in a very practical way of how we experience them in our daily life. And to define these things as wounds, most people don't. I just, yeah, they weren't interested in me or I didn't do well, but not. And that left a wound. And now my confidence is shattered and now I'm feeling helpless and now my mood is bad and now I lost self esteem points and you know, like to define that in those kinds of ways I think is a new take on for a lot of people that just makes sense to them because it's correct. That is how we experience it. So I think when somebody explains it like this is actually what's going on and this is why you're feeling the way you are. It resonates, people, clicks. People go like, oh, yes, that makes sense. I've experienced that.
- [13:41]
Podcast Host
Yeah. You and I have been a hundred percent aligned on everything that has come out of your mouth. Absolutely. I mean, I wanted you on the show because we have, like, thinking. There was one thing I heard that I want to ask you about because I feel differently about it than you do. You said that it's not their fault that they don't know. And what my feeling about that is, at some point, it is your fault. Okay? At some point, you, you know, we've got responsibility for our own mental health, our own physical health. We have to be our own advocate, right? So with AI and I get that the science is always 10 or 15 years ahead of the practice that I get, okay? But not with this thing. This thing's changing every six weeks and people are either going to get on board or they're going to be left behind. Okay. If you ain't at the. If you ain't at the dinner, okay, you're on the menu. That's what I'm telling you about this. How do you, how do you feel about the responsibility aspect of it? And when you should, like, say to yourself, okay, I'm the adult now. I'm not in my child. I'm not a victim. I'm responsible for my own happiness?
- [15:10]
Dr. Guy Winch
In theory, yes. I think there are some forces operating against that. I'll mention a couple of them. Number one, on the individual level, we all have a narrative. Our story as we believe it to be. We're not often aware of what our narrative is, but there is this underlying life story we tell ourselves that is a result of our experiences. Now, it can be very incorrect or it can be very slanted because that's how we constructed that story. But there are people who've been through experiences in life which have made them believe that they are victims, have made them believe the world is always against me. Like, I never get a break. Bad stuff always happens to me. I can't rely on anyone. It's like everyone else has a leg up except me. There are people whose life experiences led them to believe that. Now they could also be believing, I've had a lot of hardships and I've survived them. I'm a survivor, I'm somebody, you know like. You could have a much more positive slant on those exact same circumstances. But there are many people, again, who are not aware that they need to edit their life story in a way that empowers them more than, rather than paralyzes them. So there's some people who come with that sense of victimhood and paralysis and helplessness to the equation, and they're not used to thinking in terms of, let me take agency, let me take over, let me get informed, let me find tools to help myself, the adult in the room now. So as an example of individual, you know, forces that can work against a person. And then there, there's. There's cultural forces that can work against a person. Men are often. I'm over generalizing, but so, so don't cancel me. But men are socialized to. For the stiff upper lip. Like, you know, like, it's. Don't come on. Just, just put the feelings aside. Just get on with it. Like, you just keep going forward. You have a responsibility. Be a man. Like, you know, take, you know, be responsible. You're a provider. You. This. Like, they are directed away from their emotional experience in the socialization. And so they are not, you know, so lots of men, obviously not all, but many, many men don't. It doesn't occur to them that they can actually do something. They think a lot of what psychology is, is bullshit, if I may say that. It's just. That's just like that stuff for some people. That's not, you know, like that. It's not real. They don't. They don't get the reality of it. They don't get how profoundly it's impacting them one way or the other. They truly don't know that. So they don't have a reason to believe that those sources and resources would actually be valuable to them. They were trained to think that they shouldn't need them, and it's a weakness to even try and look for them. And that's a big hurdle for a lot of people to overcome. So I agree with you. That's what I'm saying. I agree with you in principle, but there's a lot of factors that block a lot of people from getting there.
- [18:10]
Podcast Host
You absolutely right. You know, you're explaining the guy 10 years ago before ways that's lost okay, for a half hour and refuses to ask for directions.
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Dr. Guy Winch
Right.
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Podcast Host
Okay. But that's unhealthy masculinity. Okay?
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Dr. Guy Winch
Oh, for sure. It's not good. It's very limiting. That's for sure.
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Podcast Host
That's right. And that's why education is so important, because it's, you know, this ain't the 60s or the 70s anymore. This is like, you know, therapy isn't something you have to do, it's something you get to do. It's the ultimate luxury. And it's how responsible people deal with their stressors. And this is a. It's. You're right, man. There are so many people that don't have a basic foundation to even understand, hey, I'm feeling shitty, or why don't I go see a therapist and see what's wrong with me?
- [19:09]
Dr. Guy Winch
It's bizarre to me, you know what I say to those people? Because I, you know, I encounter them as often as you do. I'm sure I say to them, let's get to the nitty gritty. You are in a bad place at the moment. Correct. They'll say, yes. And you have not been able to get yourself out of that bad place. Correct? Correct. So you have two options. Stay in it for whatever reason, I'm not sure. Or get help. Change the change, you know, the frame. Do something different. But to just stay there because you don't know how to help yourself and to stay in a bad place, which you know is bad and stuck for you. That logic I do not see.
- [19:51]
Podcast Host
They can't get out of it, though. They can't get out of it because it's their ache. It's theirs. It's comfortable. Well, it's not comfortable, but it's familiar and they just can't get out of it. How do you do it?
- [20:04]
Dr. Guy Winch
So what would I try and do when I'm talking to someone like that? And I see that as part of my job. If it's in a first session or a first consultation, or if it's in a social thing with a friend, my job is to give them some hope, to show them an alternative that could be different for them. I can't flesh out the whole path, but I can show them that there might be one, that there might be a different way for them and to try and get them. Even if you show them the smallest light at the end of a tunnel, they might walk toward it.
- [20:43]
Podcast Host
What exactly is emotional first aid and why do you believe people should practice it regularly?
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Dr. Guy Winch
Well, again, emotional first aid is the idea that as we go through life, we sustain emotional wounds of kinds. We spoke about rejection, we spoke about loneliness. Talk about failure for a minute. So let's say somebody is failing in some way. At work they had this big presentation. They didn't land the account. They prepared this huge document.
- [21:16]
Podcast Host
Can we do something different? Yes, Doctor. Can we do something different? Yeah, let's do it on rejection, but let's do it together. And we'll do a real, and we'll do a real life thing that's going on with me right now. I don't care if it's embarrassing or not. I don't care. I ain't running for office. Okay, tell me you brought up the text thing. You brought up the text thing. There's a girl that I like, okay, and we've been going back and forth and she says she finds me attractive, okay? But it's the beginning and I'm a love addict, okay? So I'm already planning our wedding, okay? And about on the 4th, okay, a week ago, I, we were texting back and forth, everything's great. And I text her, call me when you get home after you've settled in with a glass of wine. And I don't hear from her for a week. And then she just texts me a heart. I feel rejected and I don't want to reengage because how could this girl really like me, you know? And I don't want to, like, audition for the job. I just wanted to go into this thing slow and organically, right? But it hurts and I feel rejected and now I don't want to call anybody else. What's going on with me?
- [22:51]
Dr. Guy Winch
Okay, when we get rejected, one of the first things we typically do, you didn't mention if you do this, you don't need to. But one of the things we typically do is we try and understand why we're hurting. And in the service quote unquote of that quest, we start to look at all our shortcomings and all our faults and everything we might have done wrong, because that's what we seek to understand. Like, well, if they're not engaging with me, if she's rejecting me, I must not be adequate in some way to her. And then at a time where our confidence and our self esteem is hurting, we actually do the opposite of what we need to do and we start beating ourselves up by doing a review of everything that's in my head potentially might be wrong with me. Whether that was relevant to her or not doesn't matter. Whether those things were even displayed or not doesn't matter. But we literally beat ourselves up when we're already down. It's a very common thing to do. We have this narrative of a self critical voice in our head going, see you idiot. You shouldn't have thought, like, why did you assume such and such. Why did you wear that to the, oh, I shouldn't have said this. All of that is speculation. And so at a time where we're actually supposed to be reviving our confidence, reviving our self esteem, reminding ourselves what we do bring to the table so that we feel good about ourselves. We do the opposite. So that's one thing that's majorly wrong that people do when they get rejected. The second thing they do is that they analyze thoroughly all of them and forget to look at what's happening potentially with the other person. Like, did this actually have something to do with you? Were you misreading the signals? Was she actually not that into it all along? Or was she very tentative all along? Or was she somebody who, you know, like people tell me again, I know nothing about this woman, but people tell me all that like, well, yeah, I know they've never been in a serious relationship, but this time they seemed really engaged. And I'm like, okay, you just like jumped over that initial part that was kind of very important. They've never been in a serious relationship, but you thought you'll be the one. Like in other words. And so if they're not being serious, it's because they don't know how to be in a serious relationship. They have commitment issues, they feel threatened, they don't know how to do it, whatever. The thing is, why are you assuming it's you when there's ample evidence that it's them, you know, so, so here again, I don't know enough. And I'm not suggesting we should, you know, like talk about her, but, but there's some. Something's going on with her because it's an arbitrary thing to wait a week and then send a heart and a red heart. Like I said, use your words. What does that mean? In other words, what's the idea there? So what I ask people to do, especially when there's a lot of text, is I ask them to look at the text and literally count the lines. How many lines are you writing? How many lines are they writing? How many texts did you initiate? How many texts did they initiate? And you will see usually a difference. It's not common that you'll find it even and probably in this scenario, without my knowing anything about it, you might have been texting more, you might have been saying more. Other than this week of disruption, there might have been lulls between her response to texts. Do you know what I mean? I don't know if you said, text me when you get home and you're settled in with a glass of wine, whether that had been a clear plan that you both had, or it was a suggestion, if it was a suggestion. You don't know if she was free or able to do that or you know, if it was a clear plan. And she's reneging on a clear plan that says something about her, that she actually made the plan but then didn't show up to the plan without telling you. You know, that's not convenient. So that's something about her level of communication, her level of responsibility. Again, I'm just speculating, but what I'm saying is there's a lot that you can understand there and what you need to do. And just one other thing to mention. The other thing that rejection does is it makes us hurt. And the research is really interesting. We hurt even if the person who's rejecting us is not someone we're that interested in because we're hardwired.
- [27:11]
Podcast Host
That's, that is exactly where I'm at. I was trying, I was, I, I saw a future and I'm not even that invested yet. But it still feels bad. It's not soul crushing, it's not, but it doesn't feel good, that's for sure.
- [27:29]
Dr. Guy Winch
There are experiments done with rejection in which a person is in a rejection situation. They are rejected by, by research confederates without understanding that that's what actually is going on. They think they were truly rejected by a stranger. And then when they are told in some of these studies because they don't know, the stranger is, hey, that is someone that belongs to a group that you despise, you know, if you're a black participant, oh, that's somebody who belongs to the KKK or you're Jewish participant, that's a neo Nazi, et cetera. And then they are asked how much they still hurt. It doesn't make the hurt go away. And sometimes they're told in these experiments, actually that wasn't real, that was a research confederate who we had act out that part. So the rejection didn't actually happen. It doesn't make the sting go away because it's that hard wired for us to feel rejection as painful. So you have to discount some of it in your head. You'll feel it, but it doesn't mean what you think it might mean. Because most people think like, well, if I'm feeling it, it must mean I really wanted or I'm such a loser or no, it doesn't mean that at all. It means you're hardwired. It likes when you stub your toe and it's hurtful. It doesn't mean anything except that you stub your toe. It doesn't mean anything about you As a person, except watch where you're going. Do you know what I mean? But what that pain then causes people to withdraw because I don't want to expose myself to that again. People become risk averse and they're like, let me stop dating for a while because that was painful. And my response is always, you were dating because you were looking to meet someone. How is not dating for a while A, gonna help your confidence and B, gonna help you meet someone, treat the wound and then go out there again.
- [29:16]
Podcast Host
You're so, you're so great at this. Now let's, let's, let's tie this up. I did write more, not significantly more. If she wrote, you know, a line, I might have written three lines because I'm not, I don't. Brevity isn't my thing. But it certainly wasn't like I've waited to text back because I'm not chasing anybody. It doesn't feel good to me. Right. So now that she's sent that heart after a week and you have that information, what should I do? What's the practical step right now to take to protect my own mental health but not hide in a hole?
- [30:05]
Dr. Guy Winch
When was the hard text? How long now?
- [30:10]
Podcast Host
Yesterday.
- [30:11]
Dr. Guy Winch
Okay. I think it's 24 hours is adequate. And what I would respond, again, not you. This is what I would do in that scenario. I would write back and say I didn't hear from you for a week, period. If you're interested in seeing me again, let me know. If not, wishing you the best, how
- [30:34]
Podcast Host
about I didn't hear from you for a week. I just didn't think you were interested.
- [30:43]
Dr. Guy Winch
And then what's the message though? And therefore what.
- [30:45]
Podcast Host
Let her. That, that's, that that is meant to get a response.
- [30:52]
Dr. Guy Winch
Right? But you, but, but the way you said it kind of doesn't say enough because it doesn't lead actually to something. It doesn't, it doesn't provoke a response because you're not saying, I'm a tester doctor, Testing is doctor, I'm a tester. Testing is not a strategy.
- [31:09]
Podcast Host
It's my. I know.
- [31:11]
Dr. Guy Winch
So I'm, I'm advising against the testing. I'm advising against being more assertive and saying like, I, I had enjoyed our first meetings. If you want to continue, let me know. If not wishing it, like, that's what I'm saying, like I would. She has to come back with yes, I want to keep seeing you or no, but no one, because she's going to go wishy washy. She's going to again, what did the heart communicate after a week? We don't know. So let's not give her a chance to be vague and unclear again, because then you're left with like, and now I still don't understand what's going on. Like, tell her, you know, like, in or out, basically, is it nicely. But that's those. Them's the options.
- [31:53]
Podcast Host
I told you I didn't like it. All right. Loneliness has be. That was beautiful, Doctor. Thank you. And that was very practical, not just for me, but for everybody, because everybody goes through it and everybody feels bad about it. All right, Loneliness has become a huge issue in modern society. Why do you think so many people feel more isolated today?
- [32:19]
Dr. Guy Winch
Look, the. The easy answer there is social media and smartphones and people. And this precedes the pandemic. And people having the comfort of, you know, we can text, we can FaceTime, we can, you know, we can have video calls. There's less of a need to meet in person. You know, we used to have to go out to meet someone. Now you don't. You can stay home. You used to have to go out to socialize. Now you can stay home. So we've lost a lot of FaceTime number one in that loss of FaceTime. We've also lost some of our social skills and some of the sharpness we have about reading social cues and feeling comfortable in social situations. That can be stressful for a lot of people, for many, many, many, many people. And the more you are not in those situations, the more you are virtual, the less and less comfortable you are once you're in person. But the other thing is, the other thing that social media did is it gave us all comparison points before social media, you know, because loneliness is very comparative. It is about your expectation of how connected you feel with other people. If you think, well, I just have a couple of friends, but probably most other people only have a couple of friends, you don't necessarily feel bad. But if you only have a couple of friends and when you look at social media, those friends and everyone else seems to have many friends and they're going to five parties and you've only been to one, then relatively, you start to feel disconnected because it's a relative thing, like, I am not as sufficiently connected as I could be. If, you know, if you're on a desert island with three other people, you know what I mean? Like, you're not necessarily going to feel lonely because you're connected to everyone. You can be. And so that relative comparison is making people feel lonely. One other factor that I want to mention, loneliness is a real trap psychologically, because what it does to us is it makes us, when we really need to reach out, it makes us so hesitant to reach out that we tend to, in our heads, devalue the friendships we do have and devalue the worth that they provide. So it feels like, well, that person hasn't called me in three weeks, so they don't care about me. When. Well, you haven't called them either. And secondly, and you know, it wasn't that. It's not that great a friendship anyway. Those are misperceptions. That's what our brain does to protect us from the feeling of loneliness. Well, let's let. Yeah, they probably didn't care anywhere, so no loss, you know, like a sour grape thing. But those misperceptions then make us even more hesitant to reach out. Why would I reach out to someone who doesn't seem interested in me, even though, again, you didn't seem interested in them? And why would I reach out to someone who wasn't the best friend anyway? Well, because they were decent enough friends. Not everyone has to be a close friend. And so when people do reach out, they will reach out and text something which I've seen time and again. Like, I haven't spoken to you in three weeks. Now, that might seem okay on their end. What it reads like to the other person is accusatory. I haven't spoken to you in three weeks. And so it's not inviting. You're actually pushing people away. And as opposed to saying, like, hey, it's been a while, I miss you. Which will be much more inviting. It's a little more risky emotionally, but that is going to much more likely get you a response of like, I miss you too, let's get together, or, I'm going to go to the party, but I don't know anyone.
- [35:48]
Podcast Host
Why is that risky? I have no problem ever saying, I just missed you and I wanted to call. Why? Why would somebody feel. Feel that that's risky? I mean, I see how a teenager would feel that.
- [36:03]
Dr. Guy Winch
No, anyone would feel it. If you're lonely, what you feel is. And again, this is a natural. Things that happen with loneliness, you feel like, why aren't people reaching out? Don't they understand that I feel lonely? So it's not. You're not saying you love who you trust. Hey, I miss you. You're saying to someone who you feel has failed you, has not been there for you, who hasn't cared about you enough, Hey, I miss You. That's why it feels risky.
- [36:31]
Podcast Host
And it might be that they do care about you enough. Just, they were busy and, you know, you have friends. I have friends. Right. I spoke to my buddy Stuart this morning. I hadn't spoken to him in two weeks. I missed him yesterday. I called him and I said, hey, I haven't spoken to you in a couple of weeks. I miss you. Call me. And so he called me this morning. Okay. It was like, right. Yes, some people feel that way. And.
- [36:58]
Dr. Guy Winch
But that's why I'm saying. I mean, but that's why I'm explaining that that loneliness literally creates a distorted lens. We. It distorts our perceptions, literally. It makes us look at someone who absolutely. And I will say to people like, but did anything happen between you that you think they stopped caring? No. Then they're busy. Then just reach out and nudge them, remind them. But it's like, no, but they don't care because they didn't reach out. I'm like, they're not a mind reader. And you didn't reach out either.
- [37:26]
Podcast Host
So the loneliness creates the rejection. They overlap, and that's why bounce back
- [37:31]
Dr. Guy Winch
and forth alone creates a rejection, which creates more loneliness, which creates, you know,
- [37:35]
Podcast Host
all of that heartbreak is something nearly everyone goes through at some point. Why does the brain react to heartbreak almost like a physical injury?
- [37:45]
Dr. Guy Winch
Well, it's worse. What brain scans illustrate. Functional MRIs show that the brain responding to heartbreak in very similar ways, not exact, but very similar ways, as it does to the withdrawal heroin addict might go through when they're withdrawing from heroin. It literally makes you. Because if you think of a heroin. Heroin addiction addict withdrawing, especially a heroin addict, then you would feel that, yeah, they're going to be focused solely on getting another fix. That's the only thing that's going to matter to them. Nothing else will matter to them. They will do anything to get that fixed. They will, you know, like, do all kinds of things they would never do otherwise to get that fix. And their entire being is oriented towards, how do I get another fix? That would seem not surprising if you saw that behavior in a heroin addict. That's the behavior you tend to see in heartbroken people. And it's shocking because. And it's shocking to them, too, that they're so desperate that they're acting out of character, that they're like, you know, feeling completely crazy because they don't understand that that's what's happening in their brain.
- [38:56]
Podcast Host
Do you know what I think's really happening, doctor? Just. And I'm interested to know what you think when you're coming off heroin. You feel like you're dying. So if the brain images are. Are similar, Right. Then heartbreak feels like you're dying. That's what I think's happening.
- [39:20]
Dr. Guy Winch
Yeah, it feels like your. Yeah, it feels like your purpose for living has been taken away. Like your whole life was oriented toward that person, and they're gone. And therefore, what's it all about now?
- [39:34]
Podcast Host
What are some practical things people can do to recover emotionally after a major loss or breakup? I spent five years in a depression, okay? So let's not go down that route.
- [39:51]
Dr. Guy Winch
Look, if you spent five years in a depression after a breakup, you and many people fall into that morass because of that thing that everyone will tell you, which is incorrect. I mean, it's correct, but it's not sufficient, which is like, time will heal. It just takes more time. And what that does with people when they think that time will heal is it makes them sit by and wait to feel better. But in fact, recovering from heartbreak is an active process of recovery that you need to engage in. There are these voids and huge ones in so many aspects of your life that you have to actively go about identifying and filling. And that's not a passive waiting it out. Waiting it out is not necessarily good in any kind of grief.
- [40:44]
Podcast Host
Can you give me examples? Any example?
- [40:48]
Dr. Guy Winch
Yes. For example, you lose part of your social circle, if not most of it. You have to replace those people. You were a we, now you're an I. Your whole sense of identity has to reorient. Are you going back to the person you were before you met that person? Have you evolved? What aspects of that newness are you keeping? What are you rejecting? How are you reorienting your life with all the vacant spaces that you have for activities that you used to do together? Weekends, where we are doing this, we are doing that doing now. Like, there's literally. There's vacant time. There are vacant friendships. There's empty spaces on the wall. There are empty spaces in your sense of identity. Like, all of those things have to be actively thought through, considered, and actively filled.
- [41:34]
Podcast Host
Beautiful. On this show, we talk about addiction recovery. In your experience, what emotional struggles most often drive people towards addictive behaviors?
- [41:51]
Dr. Guy Winch
Many different things do it. For some, it's a slippery slope. You know, I don't know anyone who intends to become addicted, but they are ignoring the risks. They are. You know, they start, and then, you know, and then it gets more, and then it gets more, and they do not notice that they are addressing Emotional wounds by using substances, they don't notice how deep they're going, but the things that can start them out is just different. Emotional pain, you know, like experiences of emotional pain, disappointment, failures, heartbreak. All kinds of things like that that they're just trying to numb themselves to or they haven't figured out a purpose in life, so they're not actually pursuing something that's giving them meaning and satisfaction. So, you know, I don't need meaning and satisfaction when I'm high because I feel fine, but when I'm not, I don't, you know, like, there are many, many different things that can lead to it. Isolation can lead, you know, to really kind of comes from all different angles. There are many entryways, unfortunately, into addiction.
- [43:00]
Podcast Host
I think if someone listening right now is struggling emotionally but doesn't realize it, what are some of the signs they should pay attention to?
- [43:12]
Dr. Guy Winch
Are they feeling differently than they used to? Are they feeling bad in whichever way you want to interpret that. Sad, anxious, upset, rejected, lonely, Whatever, you know, whatever form that takes continually. Is that persisting? Are they not? Think of it again. The equivalency. With a physical wound. You expect a physical wound to hurt less as time goes on. You expect the flu to get better as time goes on. You expect an infection to go down as. As you're treating it. As time goes on, are things getting better or are they not? Or are they getting worse? And in that case, if you are not getting better, if this is persisting, if you're feeling stuck, if it's inhibiting you of doing the things and being the ways you used to be, then you need help.
- [43:59]
Podcast Host
Yeah, I love. I love the fact that everything we've talked about so far is practical and usable and simple for the masses to understand, because what you do is very heady. So to put it in a package that is usable for the masses is your gift. That is a gift. All right. What is one simple emotional habit people can start today that would improve their mental health?
- [44:40]
Dr. Guy Winch
I can think of 10. I'm going to go with gratitude. Gratitude, and I want to just define it. Gratitude means writing or thinking a little bit about one thing a day that you're actually grateful for. Now, I say that to people and they go like, okay, the sun. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. The sun is not an answer. Why the sun? What does the sun make you feel? How do you feel differently on sunny days? You actually have to elaborate it. You actually have to explain to yourself again in writing, if you can, or in your head why you are grateful for that because what does it give you? What it would be, what would your life be like without. Requires a little bit of depth. But why that practice is very, very useful. Or you can even think in terms of gratitude of like, let me call someone who I did something very helpful was inspiring to me and just tell them how much I appreciate them. That's also an expression of gratitude. If you do one of those a day, it tends to orient you towards optimism. It reminds you about the good parts of life. We are evolved to notice much more troubles on the hor that we are good things. That's just the survival imperative of our evolution. We notice the bad because that's what we need to protect from. We don't notice the good as much. So it forces you to pay attention to the good. If you're doing it every day, you need material. You're actually going to have to be a little bit thoughtful to think about. Okay, what? I can't keep saying the same thing you shouldn't. Like, what's a new thing I can think about? What's an aspect of something I can think about? Oh, you know what I'm grateful for today that was left in the fridge. So I'm going to really enjoy having that for lunch in the middle of the workday. Good enough. Because when I have a good lunch in the middle of the workday, it makes me feel better about the day and I can look forward to it again, elaborate a little bit. But every single day a gratitude exercise is free, it's incredibly effective and it will really improve your emotional health.
- [46:29]
Podcast Host
That's fantastic. And because it was so good, I would like another.
- [46:34]
Dr. Guy Winch
Another is mindfulness. And I don't necessarily just mean meditation, I mean paying attention to your experience because that brings you to the present. For example, when people talk about work life balance, I discuss this in my new book. You know, people say to me, I added an hour of yoga and I'm like, okay, yoga is great. But what the life part of the work life balance actually refers to is regular life. It refers to getting home and making dinner for the kids and going over their homework and putting them to bed and cooking. But we're often checked out of regular life. We're preoccupied, we're ruminating, we're thinking about something else and we're missing it. So mindfulness is being present. It's if you're cooking, take the time to take in the smells, to experience that, to chop, to feel the sensation of the things on the board. If you're Helping your children with homework. Take the time, a moment to say to yourself, literally in your head, like right now, my kids are good. I'm sitting here with them. I'm doing homework. These are precious moments. I know I'm going to miss them. Let me really remember what it smells like, what it feels like. I'm going to lean forward and hug them and smell them so I can remember that. A moment of mindfulness will be very useful too.
- [47:47]
Podcast Host
That was beautiful. I love this. This is fantastic. The fact that you said yes to come onto this thing, I am so happy because to be able. Sometimes we're just having stories and we're talking and we're just shooting the shit. But when I've got somebody on the program that actually can make a difference in people's lives, that gets me going. What's the emotional injury you see most often that people pretend doesn't matter, but that actually changes the course of someone's life?
- [48:19]
Dr. Guy Winch
Look, failure as an example. We talk about rejection. That can matter. Failures can discourage somebody from pursuing a goal or a passion or a career that they might be quite suited to. But that initial failure can be enough to make people think I can't do this, as opposed to like, oh, it's going to take work for me to do this. Which are very different things. Some people have very different learning curves. Some people have, you know, start with a very kind of shallow learning curve, but once they hit a certain point and then they really excel, you'll never find out if you allow a failure to discourage you. Also, we tell people to learn from their failures. And people are like, yes, how? And people don't know how to do that. And the only way to do that is to actually analyze what went wrong. But people don't want to analyze what went wrong because it's emotionally uncomfortable. They have to actually look through the disappointment again and experience that. And then it becomes self critical. All of that stuff discourages them from doing a due diligence there. Doing an accounting and realizing what went wrong. And why that's important is because we don't make a thousand mistakes in life. We make a handful and then we repeat those in all kinds of variations. So if you can figure out what one of your typical mistakes are, you can prevent a lot of failures. It's worth doing. It's unpleasant emotionally, but it's very worth doing. But people again know quite how to go about it or how to extract that information. It's such a worthwhile exercise, but it can really pivot people off course unnecessarily and it's such a shame because they wanted to do something, but I guess I can't. When I applied for PhD programs in the US the first year, I didn't get in anywhere. I wasn't even interviewed, which is the first step anywhere. Now I should have said, all right, take the hint. If they don't even want to interview you, this is not for you. I but I don't think like that. My thought was like, all right, they didn't reject me. You know who? They rejected the pamphlet I sent. That's what got rejected. They didn't meet me, they didn't reject me. The materials were not sufficient. How do I improve the materials? If you think about it in that way, then you go about figuring out how to improve the materials, get around the obstacle, figure, you know, figure the solution, and then you try again. And that's what I wish people would do.
- [50:42]
Podcast Host
Before we close, I just want to reiterate that, that truer words were never spoken. We do not make a thousand mistakes. We make a handful of mistakes over and over and over again. And then if you get the support you need and you're intentional about it and you've had enough pain, you can decide to make the change on one of those five and your life gets immeasurably better. Right?
- [51:12]
Dr. Guy Winch
Right.
- [51:13]
Podcast Host
And thank you for bringing that up. I really appreciate it. Where can people learn more about your work and the resources you offer?
- [51:21]
Dr. Guy Winch
Dr. Well, GuyWinch.com is my website. That's G Y-W-I-N-C-H.com. my newest book is called Mind of a Grind, how to break free when work hijacks your life. And it's about all the psychological ways that work takes over your life that you don't realize. And it's full of very pract, easy solutions that you can do that will make a huge difference both at home and at work.
- [51:47]
Podcast Host
Have you written a book yet about you just did the burnout book. Have you done the book that everybody wants to read about why their relationships fail?
- [51:58]
Dr. Guy Winch
I have not. I do have a book about heartbreak, how to fix a broken heart that's about heartbreak and pet loss. But I'm one of those people. I have 10 books I want to write. It's a three or four year commitment each time you do do it. So I have to choose. But it's certainly a book I would enjoy writing at some point.
- [52:18]
Podcast Host
Good. And I'll read it. All right. Dr. The pleasure was seriously all mine. It really was.
- [52:26]
Dr. Guy Winch
Thank you for having me. Mine too.
- [52:28]
Podcast Host
Thank you for coming on the show. We're out of Time. Please subscribe on YouTube, click the thumbs up and leave a comment. Please subscribe on Apple Podcast and Spotify and leave a rating and a review and share the we're out of Time podcast with others you know who will get value out of it. See you next Tuesday.