← WETSU: a BattleshipNJ Podcast
WETSU: a BattleshipNJ Podcast
CDR Mike Holmes: Bringing Big J Back: Inside the 1980s Reactivation
01:05:19
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Foreign.
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Your battle stations.
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Welcome back to wetsu, a Battleship New Jersey Podcast. I'm your host, Marshall Spivak, CEO of the Battleship New Jersey Museum and Memorial. As always, we're proud to be powered by our great partners at ELAC825, the engineers labor Employer Cooperative whose support helped make our historic 2024 dry docking a reality. The we can't thank them enough. Today's guest is someone who truly embodies the WETSU ethos, a man who has spent nearly five decades serving our Navy, our nation. Mike Holmes is a graduate of SUNY Maritime College, where he earned a degree in Marine engineering and began what would become an extraordinary career spanning surface warfare, shipyard engineering, deep submergence programs, and major acquisition programs. He learned aboard ships like the USS McInerney, FFG, USS Leyte, Golf, CG55. For us here, his story is forever tied to his time as reactivation and repair officer on the commissioning crew of our ship USS New Jersey BB62. From Beirut in 1983 to submarine rescue systems to leading modernization efforts for our littoral combat ship program, his career is one of leadership, resilience and innovation. Today, he continues to serve our great battleship as president of the USS New Jersey Veterans association, keeping the legacy of the ship and her sailors alive. Mike Holmes, welcome to wetsu, my friend.
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B
Thank you, thank you for having me.
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A
So I start one place always and that is what made you decide to join the Navy? Was there a specific moment or a person or experience that set you on the path to joining RC service?
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B
Well, when I first went to maritime, I went there as a meteorology and oceanography major. And then during the two weeks of indoctrination, I saw how badly the engineers treated the deck cadets and I said, said I think I want to be an engineer. So I, I went into engineering and I did quite a few tours during summer sea tours, I did some time with Aramco and I saw what the merchant marine was like and I decided at that time that I probably wanted to activate my Navy commission when I graduated instead of just going straight merchant marine. And so that's how I decided to do that. I'd also served weekend drills on the USS Power and the USS William R. Rush, which was commonly known as the William will rust DD714 and 839 old World War II frame can destroyers and they were stationed right there at Fort Schuyler in the Bronx.
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A
Well, what you ended, as you noted, SUNY Maritime, one of our six state maritime academies. What made led you to SUNY Maritime what was that experience like? I wanted to ask you specifically. You noted to me previously a famous quote. The sea is selective, slow in recognition of effort and aptitude, but fast in sinking the unfit. And I think you realized very early on how true that was. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
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B
Yeah. That was Admiral Felix Reisenberg, one of our earlier graduates from Fort Schuyler. I had actually put in and gotten my appointment to Kings Point, and I got a call from my congressman the week before indoctrination was to begin, and he said, I've got some bad news. You can't go to Kings Point anymore. We just did a congressional vote, and we're opening the. The academy up to females, and they did a lottery, and you were one of the nine that was pulled out of the hat for making room for the females to go. And then he said, but there's a state school right across the river from, from Kings Point, and if you'd like, I'll. I'll get you into Fort Schuyler. And I said, yep, I'm all for it. And so that's how I wound up at Fort Schuyler. Little did I know I went back and taught at Kings Point as the executive officer. So it was sort of a complete reversal of roles. But early on, that was one of the statements that we were required to learn. And in my time with at sea, I learned how if you are not. If you don't keep adept to the sea and the conditions of the sea. The sea is a very powerful force and you probably won't live through many, many times at sea that you. That you see heavy waves, bad seas. I had it through my whole career on McInerney. I had it even on Empire State, our training ship in 40 foot seas. That was probably my first learning experience. I opened the deck door on 01 level, and it was the former USNS Harkness, and a wave came down the side of the ship. And if I had been five seconds earlier, I would have been out on deck and swept down the sides of the ship. So I learned at an early stage that this was how powerful the sea could be.
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A
And maybe a little bit of extra luck goes along with that.
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B
Of course. Yeah, my. My whole career was luck.
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A
Yeah. Early on in your career, you've. You're already dealing with some serious seamanship challenges. You mentioned to me offline about an SAR mission off Halifax. Can you talk to us a little bit about that experience? And what do you teach? We'll talk, I think, a little bit later about your time at Kings Point, teaching there. But what did that experience teach you about sort of leadership and, and survival at sea?
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B
We were, we were sent to, up in the North Atlantic. We were off of Halifax, probably about a hundred miles out. And we were in some very heavy seas, 30 to 40 foot seas. And we got a SAR request for a, for a 44 foot sailboat that had been demasted and had called in a Saar. So the captain decided to go for it. We started heading that direction. They wanted to see if we could launch the helo because we had the first, we were the first lamps Mark iii which had the RAS system on board, the recovery assist securing and traversing system which is now standard throughout the fleet. But it allowed us to do more than just Sea state three operations with the helicopter. We had been out doing operations up to sea state 6 and 7 with the helo to see how much could we stretch the envelope with launching and recovering the helo. So we, we were out, we tried to launch the Hilo. I was pulling it out of the barn and we took a really pretty good sized roll and I thought we aren't going to be able to do this. So we put it back in. We had just secured the helo when we took a 53 degree roll with the ship. And we hung for seven seconds at 53 degrees. Wow. I was in the helo control office which is up on, just off of the O2 level on the frigate. And I was standing in the, on the window of the side window and I, I still remember putting my hand on the emergency escape subtle dog to unscrew and undog the hatch. Not thinking that if I went, if we did go over and capsize, I'd be without any kind of flotation device, no life ramp, no right. And in probably 42 degree water. Hypothermia would have set in in under three minutes. So, so I wasn't really thinking too well at that point. But you're just taking action at that moment. So coming back from that, we know we took 53 degrees. Cause the harpoon computer, the guys up in combat had that on so they could measure the rolls. We just, we did decide not to do the SAR mission. It was too dangerous. He got his engine restarted so he was able to continue on towards Halifax. But then we were struggling in the seas and we took another heavy rolled about 47 degrees and I had just walked forward and was going down the ladder next to the wardrobe when we split our entire superstructure open from the main deck. Up the starboard side, across and down 4 inches wide. Because the design of the early Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates was no expansion joint on the ship. And so it was a steel hull with an aluminum superstructure. And when the stringers all went, it sounded like a gun firing every couple of seconds as each stringer popped apart all the way up and all the way across. Then we had flooding water from the O2 level go into the stir equipment room and cause electrical shorts. And then we had a Class Charlie fire in the stir equipment room. And so that was an early impression again of that the sea can be very difficult to manage and you need to, you need to understand and be responsible for what you're doing.
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A
Yeah. You also had a really incredible experience representing midshipman, meeting Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip also probably your typical Navy story. Can you tell us a little bit about what you remember from that day?
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B
That was 1977 for the Queen's Silver Jubilee. We were there on the training ship, went there to be part of the flotilla that was representing the US Merchant Marine. I got selected to be a representative of the midshipman for the merchant Marine. We went, we were taken from the ship down in, in, let's see, I kind of remember where we were. We were in the. Off of Portsmouth for the, for the display of all the ships. There were over 200 ships there. We got taken to the, to a hall where the Queen and Prince Philip were and they had us go through basically a receiving line and introducing all of us to, to the Queen. I still, I, I still remember I had been hot and sweaty on watch that morning. I came off, took a quick shower, got in my whites and was transported up there. And they gave me this beautiful tapestry rug of the Queen silver Jubilee from 1977. And then they put that, I brought that back to the ship and of course everybody was like, how was it? What was it like? And it was like, it's not every day you get to meet the Queen. Yep. And Prince Philip and I had quite a discussion because he was a former naval officer.
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A
Right.
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B
And so we had, we had spent about 10 minutes together just talking about where I wanted to go in my career. And he was interested in what I wanted to do at that point. And I was still, I was still, I was a junior becoming a, a senior at Maritime and I had been one of the indoctrination duty officers and that's why I had gotten selected, because I was a plea. Indoctrination officer. I got selected to go do that tour. So it was, it Was fun. I brought it home. My parents were just overjoyed. My mom wanted to know, what did you say to the queen? I don't remember.
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A
That's great. Awesome story. Really cool experience. Now you're stepping forward a little bit. You're a newly qualified swo. You walk into a gym in Mayport and your life changes. Can you tell us a little bit about getting your orders to the New Jersey?
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B
Well, I knew I was coming up for orders within about six months, and I got this call and it said, you, detailer wants to meet you. They're at the gymnasium in Mayport. So I went over to Mayport and to the gym and walked in and the detailer says, oh, I've got your orders right here. And I said, time out. I thought we were just going to talk about where I wanted to go. My dream sheet. We used to call it a dream sheet back in those days because you put, here's where I want to go first, second, and third.
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I think they still call that, don't they?
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B
I've sort of lost track of that. It is your dream sheet, I will admit. What ports do you want to go to and where do you want to avoid? I wanted to avoid Norfolk. Hate Norfolk. Wanted to avoid Washington. My last tour was in Washington. I walked in, I said, well, let me. I'll reserve judgment. He said, I think you're going to really like these orders. And I said, well, let me reserve judgment on that. And he goes, fishes out my orders. And it was simple. Three line. Detach immediately. No relief identified. Report as reactivation officer, repair officer on the battleship New Jersey and signed Vice Admiral Lando Zach.
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Detach immediately without relief. I'm sure your, your then current CO really enjoyed those orders.
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My CEO, Captain Berg was. He was the center of the football team. So he was this nice, burly. Yeah, yeah, he was a real screamer too. When you were on the bridge, if something went wrong, he would let everybody know what was going on. But I walked back and he was so overjoyed when I told him I got to New Jersey because that was choice duty. And all the officers and the chiefs were hand selected during the first or the fourth recommissioning crew. So he was just tickled pink. And I then he read the rest of my orders that said without relief. And the guy that eventually did relieve me, he had gotten used to somebody being competent and trained and really knew what he was doing with the ship. And he got a guy straight out of. Out of SWAs that didn't have any engineering Background. He was a music major in college. And it was. Yep, it was trying for the McInerney because they were going on deployment within just a few short months after I left. They headed for the med on deployment in the Persian Gulf.
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A
Your first morning walking under the hull of the battleship in the dry dock, Describe that feeling and when it sort of hits you when you. What is. What's the feeling when it hits you when you see the battleship up that close, you're underneath of her, you're touching the hull. What was that first experience like for you? I know it was like for me in the dry dock two years ago. What was it like for you as a.
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B
As a young sailor coming off a frigate? Small ship, 454ft long. I was 54 foot breadth. You know, it was. It was not a big ship. I remember going down into dry dock at Long beach and I started at the bow and I walked from one end to the other and I just was in awe at the size of the ship. Yet all of the. Everything was opened at that time. They had cut out everything so that all the intakes you could look up into the ship. And I remember I spent a good four hours under that hull that day, learning the hull. And I was just mesmerized by the scope, the size, and actually the beauty of it, because one of my minors was naval architecture. So I just was in awe of that experience. When we were in dry dock in 2024, I could not resist going back and walking underneath the hull over and over again because it's just something you don't get to do. And I watched the people from New Jersey and the Philly area coming and they. They had that same look on their face that I must have had that first day walking under.
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A
The greatest look to witness when you came down the stairs at the dry dock in 2024 and you hit that, you know, you get down, it's about 100 steps and you're about halfway there and there's this little platform and then you sort of look up and you're like, holy shit.
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You know what?
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Wow. Wow.
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B
You don't really realize how much is under the water when you see the ship sitting at the pier. I remember we saw it. We were being escorted by one of our submarines during 83. And they heard us coming two days in advance. But they were surprised at how low a silhouette we were in the water because they said we thought at first it was just a destroyer because we had such a low silhouette until they came up close and that's what was amazing was how much was underneath that. That water line is just incredible. And seeing the props and the rudders and it's just truly amazing experience.
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A
Yeah. You were the reactivation and repair officer, which sounds like a polite way of saying, figure it out and make it work. Can you tell us a little bit about your sort of day to day, what the job sort of actually looked like and what it took to get this old lady back out at sea?
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B
A lot of it was interface. Dave Shoy, who is our ops officer, was in charge of the budget. We used to have meetings with the shipyard, with Captain Gilday in the shipyard on a weekly basis. But on a daily basis, you talk with the foreman, find out what they were doing. But you also had to start readying the ship for operations. So at the time, I had just finished writing the FFG damage control manual, which is a small pamphlet for the FFGs. And I showed it to the DCA and to Chang, which was Paul Martineau at the time. And I said, I'd like to write one of these up for the battleship. And they loved it. And. And so I wrote that for the battleship. So while we were doing all the repairs and interfacing with the shipyard, we were also thinking ahead of what do I have? Do I have enough personnel qualified for nuclear, biological, chemical? Do I have fire parties named? Do I have ship's inspection guides done? So it was a combination of both. But we also would get calls. One of my infamous calls was a Sunday morning and I did a call and I had purposely. I had purposely gotten my apartment across the county line into Orange county because at the time we didn't have cell phones. And to get called in, they were required to get into the CO or XO stateroom. And those were the only outside lines we had. So to call me was. It had to be a serious issue. I didn't want to get the call in from, you know, Seaman Raveno. Hey, how do you do this? So I get this call on a Sunday morning saying, Mr. Holmes, you need to come in. I said, really? And he goes, yeah, yeah, you're not going to believe what the shipyard has done here with the halon piping. So I got uniform and I drove in and I walked in and they said. I said, so where is it? He says, no, you got to come down to see it. Bring your tape measure. So I came down and he goes, I looked at the plans and I started measuring it out. And they were piping, the halon piping. They were going to cut Holes through the sides of the boiler uptakes to run the halon piping through the boiler uptakes because somebody didn't own a slide rule or a. Or any kind of measuring device I guess at the shipyard. So we redesigned where the piping was going to go right then and there on the deck plates that Sunday. And then Monday morning I got to go explain it to Captain Gilday and the planning yard manager why we redesigned the halon piping on a Sunday.
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A
On the fly?
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Yeah, on the fly. Because at that point we were just getting ready to start working up towards thinking about lighting off and we were being told that we were going to have to come. We were going to be at a 14th of January commissioning in 83. It was being moved forward because the President was going to recommission us and we were going to have to move it forward to when he was at San Clemente. So that's why you'll see some of our memorabilia says 14-1-83 for commissioning and other stuff says 28-12-82.
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A
Interesting. You've described and let's call it what you. What you've described as creative procurement. Ball caps, dippos, getting what you needed. My hero Beirut. Can you tell us a little bit about your. Some creative procurement?
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B
Yes. I could do anything I wanted with a ball cap and a cigarette lighter on board the ship. If we needed stuff done normally in the Navy you'd see it with. We call it commshaw. I was famous for having survived Gitmo on McInerney where my senior chief and my first class were being arrested for procuring 1455 gallon drums of 2190 tep oil that was headed to a different ship, the Elmer Montgomery. And I came back from dinner with the captain one night and their blue lights flashing all over the pier. And I walk in and the captain here's my first class and he's handcuffed on the front hood of the of the shore patrol car and there's a 55 gallon drum hanging from a J. Davit and we needed the oil. But the senior chief thought they would only take a few drums, not all 14 that the Elmer Fudd had requisitioned. So before we turned it back over, the captain sued the angry beasts of the shore patrol and said I'll take them all to mast. It's since it's on my ship, I'll take care of that. They released my crew and I told them make sure you drain 50 gallons of oil, leave 5 gallons in it, because that'll float on top of the water. Put 50 gallons of water back in the drums and give it back to the Elmer Fudd. So we left port the next morning. We had plenty of oil in our tanks. They got all this lovely 50, 55 gallons of water when I got back. They got back to Mayport one day and the chief engineer came over and said, hey, did you get any of that oil, that bad oil down in Gitmo? It was like it was almost pure water. And I had a hard time keeping a straight face. But I had also damage control equipment. Anybody headed to Gitmo knew that. I knew where damage control equipment was made, was available. And if you had something to trade, we had the. I can say this now because the seven years of liability statute of limitation is passed, but we used to trade that way. Same thing on the New Jersey. If you had a ball cap, if you could get anything. I flew into, from Manila, I flew down.
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A
This is a pre challenge coin era.
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B
Pre challenge coin era. I flew down to Subic Bay with a big repair list. And we were only going to be there for a short period of time. So I had to get them to do a lot of the advanced repairs and be ready to just go right aboard the ship. So ball caps. I brought a case of ball caps, handed them out. Instead of giving coffee in 5 gallon tins or, or 10 pound tubs of peanut butter, it was all ball caps. And I could get anything I wanted for a ball cap. And same thing. When we were in Beirut, I used to fly into Haifa. The Israelis were really good at giving us repair stuff that we needed or supplies. And we had the Puget Sound there when we first got there. I flew aboard with cigarette lighters and ball caps. And the amount of repairs we got done before she went back to Gaeda was just fantastic.
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A
I do get a lot done with ball caps and challenge coins. I will say it. It's still, it still works today. But that deployment to Nicaragua, then later to Beirut, the ship wasn't fully outfitted for what you were being asked to do. So what was it like operating under those conditions?
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B
We were, we were doing a three month east pack and then we were going to come home for a couple of days and then go on a three month west pack. We came home for a couple of days so that the bachelor officers didn't lose their baq. Captain Fogarty had made sure that it was timed properly so that we could maintain our living accommodations back at home. And we headed to the Far east halfway through that junket we were sent back through, it was sort of funny. The we had already been to Subic and when we were leaving Subic, all of the young ladies on McSayside street told us, oh, we'll see you in a couple of weeks. And we said, no, no, no, we're going to the patio beach. And in Hong Kong and Japan, we aren't coming back here. Oh well, no, we'll see you in a couple of weeks. And we were all like, no, honey, sorry, we won't be back. A couple of weeks later we were back on our way to Nicaragua and it was like we'd still scratch our head. How did they know that we were headed to Nicaragua two weeks before we found out? But we got to Nicaragua, we just sailed back and forth along the coast and then we got the orders to Beirut. And like you said, we had not been outfitted for a long term, 11 month deployment. So we got to the canal and then we discovered they put all these big downspouts on either side of the hull. And yeah, they even put the, they even put Air Nixie down along the sides of the hull and we had to unbolt everything, cut everything off so we could get through the canal and then head, head over to, at 27 knots straight all the way to Beirut. So it was very trying because we didn't have a lot of the repair parts, so we had an awful lot that we would requisition. It was flight quarters was a daily occurrence with parts and repair stuff coming in. And then we used the helo to transport stuff back and forth from Haifa as well. And so that little Sh2, it never did any submarine work. It was basically turned into a CH40 transporting stuff back and forth.
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A
Captain Milligan's of course, most famous line, be flexible at that time. How did, how did that really define the culture? As you're doing your Nicaragua and they're, you know, you're ordered through the canal to Beirut, of course, later there, quote, unquote, indefinitely. How did, how did Captain Mogan's words really set the tone for the crew?
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B
We weren't too bad. The crew wasn't that bad until Grenada happened. And that was the relief forces that were going to be coming and taking our place, not just the Marines, but also our place on the line. Yeah, and so that was the first indication that this was going to be a very long duration deployment. And so it was, it was famous, the Be flexible. He would always end his one MC broadcast with we've been extended. Be flexible. And it got so monotonous because you were only doing a knot to three knots off the coast, anywhere from a mile and a half to three miles. Some days you'd be out five miles off the coast, but then it was, you got to go to a high speed run at night you'd get up to go 12 miles to pump and dump at sea and then you'd be back in the morning. So you could. They wouldn't miss us and they'd see all the, all of the Druze militia, the Amal, they would all see us still out there. So that was the only time the engineering plant ever got exercised, was on our pump and dumps out and back. We were, it was, it was really trying and. But when every time the captain would come on and would be telling us, you know the, the old steak and lobster routine, you're being extended with it. Yeah, the whole crew would start mimicking his be flexible. They've turned to each other and just say be flexible.
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A
Hopefully two, two cranes of beer with that as well.
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B
We weren't allowed to have beer. No, I called that.
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A
I don't know if the rule, I don't know what the hard and fast rule is, but today, if there are certain time at sea, along with the steak and lobster situation, every sailor gets two, two beers.
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B
The closest we got to the 45 days cap. Captain Milligan at the time said, we're battleship sailors. We don't need to do the 45 day beer ration. So the closest we got to a beer ration was seeing all The Marine Corps HM 262 and 263 helos coming in and out onto our flight deck. They used to patch the helo with Bavarian beer cans. And so you'd see this patchwork quilt of Bavarian beer can side patches all over. That was closest we got during our deployment.
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C
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- [28:19]
A
Of course, off the coast of Beirut, the ship is there. And then the barracks bombing. Of course we lose Chief Michael Drudginski in the attack. Your friend in chief. Luckily we had nine other sailors, New Jersey sailors who were landside with him luckily missed the same fate. I know this is a sensitive Topic for you? I know it's hard to talk about, but could you. Can you talk to us a little bit about that day and where you were when it happened? What you remember just sort of right in the aftermath of the terrorist attack.
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B
I still remember it like it happened yesterday. I'm reading a new book on Target Beirut. It just came out. And I'm learning a lot about what happened back here in the States with Congress and the president and Secretary of State in this book that I didn't really realize was going on. The first thing we knew, I was running on the flight deck, doing my three miles on the flight deck in the morning. And I remember I was coming around the back of turret three and I was facing Beirut when it happened. And I heard the blast and then saw the column of smoke rising. I immediately ran up to my stateroom and got showered up and got changed out. Because the captain had decided we were going to be flying equipment in. I got the repair department to start pulling together things like pry bars, anything that we could use for digging operations. I knew with rebar reinforced concrete, we'd need cutting torches. So we grabbed all the cutting torch kits out of our repair lockers and got it all up onto the flight deck. The captain asked for volunteers to go in. We sent a group of individuals in to Beirut and some guys came back on day one. Other guys stayed there for a few days.
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A
In addition to the mardet that was. That went over as well.
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B
In addition to the mardet as well? Yeah, a lot of guys from that. It was all volunteering. And so the captain asked for volunteers. We went in and it was really pretty grisly. The guys would come out and they were completely covered. The guys that could come out were completely covered with. With concrete dust. They were just ash and white, grayish white. Then you started as you were digging, doing the digging operations, you found body parts, you and it. And then as time went on, it was still pretty warm in Beirut during that time of year and in October. And so the smell started to permeate everything. A lot of people did not suffer from PTSD at the time. However, as time went on, finally my PTSD came out in 2011 and I had to seek medical attention for the PTSD. I just recently had one of the guys that volunteers and heads up one of our volunteer missions every April from the vets is Glenn McCurdy. And Glenn suffered from PTSD, but he had no record of having come from the ship onto the land because he was on the Iwo Jima at the time being ordered to the ship. So I wrote letters to the VA identifying that, yes, he was with me on the pile. It finally got him his VA support that he needed for his ptsd. But it was not very well documented as to who went ashore, and especially with the va. Plus, we at that time, PTSD wasn't really that well known or died than it is today.
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A
Yeah, talked about. I should was what it was, but not talked about in the way that
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B
it wasn't talked about. I'm sure. I know there was a lot of drinking that went on after World War II and after talking through with the psychiatrists about PTSD, I think that's where a lot of guys from World War II covered their issues, was with drinking in the late 40s, early 50s, and same thing after Korea. So it was a difficult time. I'm glad it's recognized and the guys can get support and help that they need these days.
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A
Quickly, did you know when you got there about the fate of Chief Drudinski, about the fate of our other nine who were there, that they were safe?
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B
Well, the nine, we didn't really realize they had left the night before. They were making up the flight to Larnica and they had missed the 53. Every night there was a CH53 flight that would head to Larnica and then they would pick up at Larnica. They would pick up a C141 or a C5 and head home from there because they were in transfer mode. So we had already detached them from the ship. I remember Captain Milligan told me, check on Chief Garzinski when you get there. It was days before we recognized what had happened. I met a Marine, a former ops officer from the meu, when we were both getting PTSD support. And he looked at me one day in the room and he's like. He's like, I know you. And I looked at him and I said, yeah, I know you too. And we finally realized we had met each other in Beirut off time. And then I didn't remember seeing him on the pile because he was being transferred back home. He was at Ramstein on his way home when Greg was recalled to Beirut because his job was to open the body bags and identify who the Marine was in the body bag. And his PTSD came out at the same time mine did in 2011.
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A
Talking about this offline, you said something I thought was sort of powerful, and you said you were taking losses, but you weren't allowed to fire. The ability, the inability of the ship to, you know, be allowed, I should say to fire by superiors. How did that sort of sit in psychologically with the crew at that time?
- [34:06]
B
It really was devastating to the crew. We would. We really didn't mind being there. It was our job. We wanted to be there. We wanted to support the Marines. But every time we saw the Syrian batteries shooting down an A7, an A6, 14s, when Lieutenant Light, we were told that we were hearing rumors that we were too inaccurate in our firing. And so that's why we weren't being allowed to fire. So the crew was, well, then why. What are we doing here if we aren't going to be allowed to fire? And you keep sending the aircraft in, but the aircraft keep getting. Getting hit with missiles. What are we doing here? It really wore on the crew. And that added to the. To the, you know, besides being flexible for not not knowing when we were going to come home, but also the fact that we weren't able to fire. And then Lieutenant Lang, his A7, got shot down, and it landed in an apartment building. He was trying to make feet wet coming off the beach, and he had a punch out. And the aircraft spiraled in and it leveled an apartment building just before leaving north of Beirut. And that just really tore at the crew. Well, we're inaccurate, but you're losing aircraft and they're crashing into buildings and killing civilians. We could not understand why we were not allowed to fire.
- [35:22]
A
Of course, then, December 1983, the 16 guns are firing ablaze and you are sending shells in country. What was that moment like on board when the fire mission happens and obviously the crew realizes what's going on and you're finally seeking revenge for chief and everything else?
- [35:49]
B
Well, we were being called up to general quarters at least twice a day, if not three times. So that was constant as well. So it wasn't just we were patrolling off and we were just motoring back and forth. We kept getting called up to gq, and then we would not fire. Prepare to fire. Stand down. Prepare to fire. Stand down. And so that wore on the crew as well.
- [36:14]
A
And why was that happening? Because they just couldn't. You couldn't ultimately get the authorization to fire at the end of the day?
- [36:19]
B
Correct. We couldn't get the authorization to fire. And so we would. We would man up, we'd be prepared, and then we would stand down. The Marines would call out for support, and then it would be. We would immediately go to gq, but then we would come back down. I still remember that day. I was back in repair three at the time. And I had got left D.C. central, gone back to repair three down Broadway to take a look and see how the guys are doing back there. Because that's where Mar Debt Berthing was originally when we recommissioned and the Marines and I had a wonderful relationship. I always used to make fun of the Marines back there. The grunts were really call them crane eaters. But we had a great relationship back there. And so I went back to see how everybody was and. And I remember preparing a fire and it was like, okay, prepare to fire again. Here we go again, guys. And I was standing looking at the repair part, the boards, which is now ahead back in. Back in that area. It was repair three. And I remember I was standing looking at the damage control charts and all of a sudden kaboom. And the ripple fire effect. And you could hear it, the muffled sound of the fire inside the armored box. And the ship vibrated and there was silence in the ship. Nobody said a word for about 5, 7, 10 seconds. And then all of a sudden you heard this cheering of. I don't know, just elation that finally we were able to do our job that we were called there to do. And it was. I'll never forget the. The sound of that. And then in February later ON when we fired 288 rounds, it was sort of like, man, are we ever going to stop firing?
- [38:03]
A
Well, I. For those who didn't listen to our WETSU episode with our friend Chris Lehman, who's the brother of of course the Sec Nev at the time, John Lehman, and worked in the National Security Council staff in the White House. He talks about watching the video feed from a plane overhead in the Situation Room with President Reagan watching the New Jersey dropping project into Beirut in real. You know, which was an awesome, awesome story to hear there.
- [38:33]
B
We weren't the only ones cheering, however, I'm sure we go to the. We support the Veterans of America, which is both Navy and Marine Corps for everybody that was there in Beirut. And so we support them. And talking with the Marines when we actually fired, the cheering that went up from them.
- [38:52]
A
Yeah.
- [38:52]
B
And their talk about how it sounded like a freight train going over their heads when the shells were inbound. Different. It was a totally different concept to us who was throwing the shells over hearing them going overhead.
- [39:07]
A
There's also some incredible, I think only on a Battleship stories that you had pointed out to me. Bathing in JP5 pink clouds of PKP 1500 eggs on the pier. I think you've got it behind you. Battleship sailors do it with 16 inchers bumper stickers. What do those moments say about the personality of the crew on the battleship New Jersey? At the time we were the.
- [39:32]
B
Our name plates even said the battleship because at the time. And you talk with Chris Lehman, Senator Tower was opposing bringing the other three out. So we were the only battleship. And so we were the only battleship sailors. And so we were very proud of that. And the fact that Captain Fogarty had hand selected not just the officers and the chiefs, but a lot of the first class petty officers were purposely selected as well. Plus, I don't want to say that it was just those individuals that felt the battleship lore because even the lowest seaman apprentice got orders to the battleship. We were special. We were battleship sailors. And it was. And it went to Navy tradition, Navy lore. I can't tell you how many did you know.
- [40:21]
A
Last of your kind.
- [40:22]
B
We thought we were the last of our kind. And I gotta admit, I've never worn more dress uniforms in my life than I did on board the battleship. And I remember when Captain Fogarty came in and said, okay, all you guys, everybody, all officers have to have swords. And I remember somebody in the, somebody in the wardroom said, I'm only a lieutenant JG I'm not required to have one until I make lieutenant commander. Which was true. Captain Fogarty said, you're a battleship sailor. You will have a sword. Make it happen. And so everybody went out to the, to the exchange and bought their swords. And I had already done a commissioning so as a pre com crew on McInerney. So I had bought one for part of that. But then a little funny story, when Reagan was going to commission U.S. secret Service did not want any of the officers to have an actual sword right in their scabbard because we might attack the President. And it was just one of those things of we had to show the Secret Service how it was impossible to wear a scabbard with the hilt of the sword without the sword blade. They're all interconnected. So then they wanted to talk to us about wiring them all so that you couldn't pull the sword out. It was really one of those humbling moments of you're trusting us with a battleship and 16 inch guns, but you don't want to trust us around the President who's going to be over there with our sword.
- [41:51]
A
And we're talking about commissioning day and talking about President Reagan. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience on commissioning day and having. Of course, we like to talk about it when you walk into the boardroom, you've got President Reagan's flag and some pictures from commissioning day. Only battleship to ever be commissioned or recommissioned by a sitting U.S. president. Can you talk us a little bit through of commissioning day?
- [42:10]
B
We were so proud. We practice and practice for the. Besides doing the regular work that we had to do, we would have set times that we would go out and practice manning the rails where everybody was going to be lining up and what our functions were going to be. I still remember standing there watching the ceremony, watching the President's face and that picture of him when he was presented the piece of teak from the deck he's got, it was like a kid in a candy store getting his first Bazooka Joe bubblegum wrapper. I mean, he was just so elated. And the way he talked to us as being battleship sailors and we were the rebirth of the 600 ship Navy. And John Lehman, when he talked about it, even when we were on sea trials back In September of 82, Tom Gerald asked him, what do you think in this day age of Exocet missiles, what do you think the battleship captain would do? And I'll never forget John Lehman saying, I think you call away sweepers. Sweepers, man your brooms. Because we knew what the ship was made of, we knew how it was constructed, and we knew a small warhead like that was not going to cause any trouble for the ship. So it filled us with real pride. Everybody just wanted to be part of the battleship and the rejuvenation of the 600 ship Navy.
- [43:36]
A
You volunteered, I think, against your father's advice, and ended up having a very unique USO tour on board. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
- [43:46]
B
Yeah, we were XO Dick McKenna called for a meeting in the wardrobe. We all showed up and he said, I'm looking for volunteers. And it's like everyone's favorite sentence there, everybody's favorite line, we're looking for volunteers. And it was coming up towards Christmas, and we didn't know that the USO tour was coming our way at that point. We had just had Wayne Newton's tour come aboard. Fabulous performance, by the way. One of the best, one of the best USO tours I think I've ever witnessed. We get this call for volunteers and I thought, well, maybe I won't have to go into Beirut that day. Maybe it's for duty on Christmas Day. I'll, I'll volunteer. So I raised my hand. Everybody's laughing, you idiot Navy. Never again. Volunteer yourself, you know. And it was like and xo, I remember said anybody else would like to volunteer. Mike's volunteered to be a tour with the USO with Bob Hope when he comes to board. And. And I had the inevitable, inevitable task of, of bringing Brooke Shields around, who is still terrible for you was still under 21. So her mom came along with her. And you know, Brooke was like 6 foot one at the time. Her mom was 5 foot nothing at the time. Very Mutt and Jeff. And they had a very, very interesting relationship. I'll say. Kathy Lee Crosby with her wardrobe malfunction on her way up, up during the show. Jillian Julie Hayek, Vic Damone. Outside of the ship store and the barber shop, we were giving back rubs. And who gives the best back rubs? And only those of us that were party to that little effort will ever understand what that was like for us. But they treated us so kindly and they really. I being with them for that period of time, I just understood that they were doing this to support us and support the troops. They weren't doing it to make a name for themselves. And I still remember Victimone was voted as giving the best back rubs. However, I will say that my time with Angelian was well spent. Ann and I became friends and we still communicate to this day.
- [45:59]
A
That's awesome.
- [46:01]
B
She is. She was just such a wonderful person. There's a. I have a great picture where you're sitting in the wardrobe of Anne and I together in the wardrobe or in the captain's import cabin and she is just laying against my shoulder and she's got just this wonderful face. And we were on a cruise ship and we did the Newlywed Game and my wife was asked who, if you were not here and Mike was to free to marry anybody in the world, who would he marry? And without a pause she said angelian. And everybody had laughed when I said that was going to be the answer. And I mean, she didn't even take a breath. It was just angillian and. And they were shocked.
- [46:45]
A
That's great. Your tour on the battleship finally comes to an end and Captain Milligan personally intervenes in your next assignment. Can you talk a little bit about that and sort of how what did that mentorship mean to you?
- [47:00]
B
Captain and I had a very close relationship. He knew I had had some medical issues while I was there in Beirut. He had also also read my, my, my performance evaluations. He had talked with Captain Fogarty about one of the issues that happened during the pre commissioning days with I. Petty Officer Flakes and I had gone down below decks and recovered two guys that had gotten overcome by CO2 and they inadvertently activated the CO2 flood. And he thought it would deserve more than just to write up in my fitness report, which. So he went to bat for that, unbeknownst to me, until he gave me an award later in my career. But we had a relationship. And he called me to the bridge one day off Beirut, and he said, you're coming up for orders. And I got your orders. They were transmitted in. And he says, I don't think you're going to like them. And after what I had done in Mayport, it was like. And he said, I don't think you're going to like them because I don't like them. And you're a battleship sailor. And I'm not going to allow a detailer or a placement officer to put a battleship sailor into a position where he goes to a job that I don't think he's suited for. I never saw what those orders were. I can't imagine what they were. He never told me, even after the years when he was over here at Annapolis when he was Second Fleet. And a guy I ultimately worked for in my civilian capacity later on in life was his aide. He never told him about was. But with him, I sent. I'm sending a message off. Where would you like to go? And I said, well, I'm due for a shore rotation. I was thinking of teaching and maybe Kings Point or a gas turbine school somewhere. And he said, leave it to me. And a week later, he called me back up and I said, here are your orders. And the orders were to report to the Merchant Marine Academy. And ultimately I became the executive officer there. And also later in that tour, I became executive officer at NAV State New York down in Brooklyn, because their XO had been another one of those ordered out. No, no relief. And, oh, there's an XO relief. Yeah, you can go do that job, too. So one job was teaching young minds. One was taking young minds to mast. Yeah, it was quite a quite interesting relationship, but those were the orders I got was to Kings Point. And so I report there. And the only guys that usually got sent to Kings Point were Kings Pointers. And you never really sent a SUNY
- [49:31]
A
Maritime guys going to Kings Point.
- [49:32]
B
Yeah, there was a big rivalry.
- [49:34]
A
KP people love that, I'm sure.
- [49:36]
B
Yeah, they really loved that Admiral. And then I became president of the Officers Club there, which really.
- [49:42]
A
So you had a great. You had a great experience at Kings Point.
- [49:45]
B
I did.
- [49:46]
A
You're, of course, a SUNY Maritime grad teaching at your at Kings Point. Kings Point being one of our seven service academies for the maritime academies and of course our six state maritime academies. What was it like sort of mentoring the next generation of naval officers of SSOs. Of course you had some famous now famous students along the way. What was your Kings Point experience?
- [50:10]
B
Well, one of the things when we got there, when I got there, the school had lost a rivalry between Skyler and the Point. And I sort of inject some life back into that. And when they heard stories about what we used to do, that was that sort of helped the rivalry start up a little bit again. We also noticed Captain Marshall was Kings Pointer and he was the head of the Navy group there. And we noticed that there was not many guys going on active duty. And the only guys that did go on active duty usually went to the Navy. There was no Air Force, there was no Marine Corps. Some went to the Coast Guard, but it was very rare. Coast Guard Academy and of Kings Point were. They were definite rivals at that point. Yes, the Kings Pointers would always go to the football game for the Transportation bowl. And their favorite thing was pumpkin heads because the Coast Guard Academy helmets were orange. But so we injected aviation indoctrination field training. So I would bring Midshipman, we'd get a C119 and we'd fly them down to either Pensacola or to Be Ville in Kingsville, Texas to the flight school. And we set up to have one week training where they would all get to fly. We opened up Navy nuclear program 1986. We put 46 graduates on active duty, including Air Force, Army Transportation Corps. One Marine, my favorite, John Bevin. He was, he stood up with the commandant of the Marine Corps swearing him in. In a sea of white, one guy up, this guy stands and John Bevin was about 5 foot 2. He was really short and he stood up. And I'll never forget because he, the commandant said, don't worry Marine, you've got him surrounded. And the crowd loved it. They just died laughing.
- [51:57]
A
And that's great.
- [51:59]
B
But we got that as another avenue. It wasn't just the merchant marine or a shoreside component. We got people interested in joining the service as a way. And I used to teach the students, you can make it a career, it's an opportunity. But don't go into it thinking I'm going to make, I'm going to do 30 years. Because I had some students that said I'm going to do 30 years in the Navy. And I thought you got to the
- [52:24]
A
Navy, why Don't you spend one day in the Navy first before you.
- [52:27]
B
Yeah, sometimes, you know, the Navy can be a little irritating and you might not get the right combination of you and your boss. And so you need to just be open to the fact that you might only do four years or six years or you might do 10 or 20. So we did. There was a lot of that mentoring. Probably one of my favorites is Senator Mark Kelly. Mark. Mark was. He wanted to be aviation. And I still remember he had the Navy Aerospace Medical Institute. We call it the Namiwami. They were just having a hard time with his flight physical. And we finally got him through that. He went off to become a. An pilot, combat aviator, an astronaut. And of course his twin brother was an astronaut from Fort Schuyler. So it was great to have that rivalry in space as well, but. And then Mark became a senator. But, you know, it's so you never know when you're teaching these young students what they're going to become. And that's why you had to be open. You had to be receptive in learning and listening to them before, just helping them along when they make decisions.
- [53:37]
A
Yeah. I wanted to focus mostly on your time at the battleship and then in the Navy. But I do want to ask one specific thing about your later on civilian career in the Navy, and that's your work with the littoral combat ship program. Because obviously we here are very familiar with the LCS program. Having just had the USS Billings LCS 15 nested outboard us for the Navy's 250th birthday Freedom Class LCS. And I loved watching you interacting with the LCS sailors. And I think someone said your name is on the manuals still or something. Your name is somewhere there, of course, now. And talking about 2026 and today's present conflict in the Middle East. Independence class LCs are doing great minesweeping missions following the decommissioning of the mcms. What about working in the LCS program was. Was great for you? And then of course, seeing that come to fruition a little bit here with your baby on the LCS and your other baby here at the battleship sort of nested alongside each other.
- [54:43]
B
The LCS program. I had been in the Deep Submergence program for, for quite a few years in submarine escape and rescue. And I finally said, you know, I'm coming up. I know I've only got limited time left before I'm going to retire. I want to go back to the surface Navy and see what they're See what they've done in 40 years. I relived my Young Jo days on the first of the FFGs with the LCS class. Nobody wanted them. They were brought out. The first and second flights were bare bones, minimum stuff. They came up with the fleet that most of them were decommissioned or sent to the reserve force.
- [55:16]
A
Yeah. And here in Philly in the reserve basin. Yeah.
- [55:20]
B
Yep. And nobody knew what to do with the LCS because they were bought in. Block buys. So I took the job as the deputy for fleet introduction and later became the chief engineer and in charge of all their modernization. So my name is all over everything.
- [55:35]
A
Nothing like modernizing a ship that was just commissioned two years prior. A year prior.
- [55:40]
B
Exactly. They were built. We bought a 10 spot of each ship, both classes. So you got 10 years worth basically of equipment and it might be outdated by the time the ship actually delivered. So you had to start modernization at the three year point. And that's what was a little different than the DDGs where they come in with ages. They're 10 year, 10 year program for modernization. We were a three year program, but we were, we could do things faster. And that was one of the, one of the elements we introduced into it was do things faster to give the crew what they need and if there's a problem, get a correction done and then implement it quickly into the hull. That's why when the Billings came up alongside my old ride, Billings and I saw some things when we were walking around Billings and they were like, how do you know this? Well, because, you know, I remember the ops officer was like, how do you know all this stuff in the chief Engineer? Well, because I wrote the. I've signed off.
- [56:38]
A
You wrote the manual.
- [56:39]
B
This, this is the alteration. You need to correct that. And they were like, we didn't even know there was an alteration for that. So we had meetings while probably unbeknownst to you, but they called me down to the wardrobe and I brought my books in because I had it still on my laptop. All of the alterations that were approved and I was able to go through with them. Here's what you need to go back to Squadron. I didn't make any friends at Squadron, I'll tell you. Because now all of a sudden the crew of the Billings and ultimately the crew of Cooperstown knew all the alterations that they needed to do. So I was getting calls from the guys that used to work for me down there going, were you talking to the Billings? Yeah, I was, yeah. They came back with all this information about all these alts. We haven't approved. And I said, yeah, so it was. It was really nice. One of the things the captain said to me just before they departed alongside us was just the amount of time we spent together with the guys from the New Jersey coming on board them and them giving them tours of New Jersey. He said, the crew really feels part of the New Jersey. And now we understand and we feel part of their tradition of what the New Jersey is and was. And he says, I gotta thank you guys for that. And that was really.
- [57:53]
A
Absolutely.
- [57:54]
B
That's passing on to the future generation of naval warriors. And that's part of what we were doing with them being here for the Navy. 250th.
- [58:03]
A
Absolutely. We feel the same way about them as well. Really. Just a week we will not soon forget here, switching gears a little bit to now our museum era. You've seen this ship in combat, you've seen this ship in war. We are now a museum. What does that mean to you to see her preserved here in Camden? And to the extent that we do
- [58:24]
B
it, one of the things. As president of the veterans, I've been trying to link our two groups together more and more because I think the sailors that have served on the ship bring a whole different feeling and meaning to the ship. No doubt about it, where somebody working the ship. I think Ryan is the curator and Libby. They understand it because they see it. They talk to us. You understand it because you talk to us. Trying to interject the two together, because as a museum, it's the future. I see it when I'm up there with you and we see the students coming aboard and when. When guys. Some of the docents say, this is one of the guys that served on board the ship and watching the faces of the students and tell us a story. And I'll tell them a story and they'll be like, wow, that's great. They can then feel a part of it, because if we fail to learn from history, we're doomed to repeat it.
- [59:18]
A
Absolutely.
- [59:18]
B
And. And I think that's one of the great things about the sleepovers on board, which I think is a great program,
- [59:26]
A
of course, ran by another former battleship sailor.
- [59:28]
B
Yep. Run by ken and the 69 crew. Yes. From the third commissioning. But that's one of the great things about it, is we're bringing this to light so that they understand it's not just a ship over there at the piercing. It brings it to life for them. And that's what you do as part of the memorial. I've gone to all the Other battleships all around the country and even overseas. I will say that this ship has the most open spaces and the most interactive capability of any of the ships. Whether they be destroyers, whether they be frigates, submarines. This ship really goes that extra mile to show them everything.
- [60:13]
A
We take great pride in that. Of course you mentioned in my next question was going to be you're the president of the USS New Jersey Veterans Association. You want to just give a little bit of a plug for what the vets association does. Hopefully everyone who's listening to this who is a ship vet is already a part of the association. Just so you know, our listeners know that there is something like that out there.
- [60:31]
B
The Veterans association was, was created years ago and it was. Membership is for anybody that served on board the ship, family members of people that served on board the ship or we have an associate membership for people that just want to be part of the Battleship New Jersey traditions. And so we meet once a year as reunions. We do volunteer work on board. We support the ship in for their political struggles in funding and politics. That's always played. We donate funds to the ship to help maintain and do special projects to bring more things on the ship and its history to light. And we give scholarships and it's scholarships not just to Battleship veterans but to their families. Last year we gave three scholarships to grandchildren. One from a grandchild from the 80s group and two from the Vietnam era. Third recommissioning. But now we've opened it up to the new USS New Jersey SSN 796 because they carry the name and the traditions of the New Jersey forward. And so they are now eligible and their families for that. And the membership has now opened itself to the submarine as well. So we continue the great state of New Jersey and the namesake of our ships and moving forward that's. That's what the Battleship New Jersey veterans are are.
- [61:56]
A
I like to do a quick lightning round so I'm going to ask you a couple questions. I just want you to give me the one word answer. You know what? It's off the top of your head. Favorite place on the ship.
- [62:05]
B
Captain. Port captain and Jillian.
- [62:07]
A
One word to describe the crew.
- [62:09]
B
Professional coffee or mid rats Coffee.
- [62:12]
A
Biggest shit moment at sea.
- [62:14]
B
I was on the pier. It wasn't at sea. Was standing there with 1500 eggs where the crew all thought they were ballutes for the crossing the line ceremony. And watching their faces when they came when the ship came alongside. Nalangapo.
- [62:29]
A
Yeah.
- [62:29]
B
Best port call Patty Beach Island.
- [62:31]
A
One thing only battleship sailors understand.
- [62:34]
B
I Think, think what it means to be a battleship sailor.
- [62:37]
A
Sure. Yeah.
- [62:38]
B
I, I think because it's the lore of the ship and the traditions of battleship sailors, which was semi lost after World War II. Yeah. And there's very few that realize what it really is.
- [62:53]
A
And finally, last but not least, we end this. We end every interview asking about WETU moments. You obviously, more, more than anyone about WETSU moments. Of course, we eat this stuff up or slightly thereof. Leaning into a task, taking on grueling work, doing it with a smile on your face. We've, I think, talked about several of those instances over the last hour we've been talking. Any specific really great WETSU moment that stands out to you? That's really like tops, I think it was.
- [63:24]
B
I always go back to John Layman and the press trying to say the ships are outdated. We've got missile technology these days. Why are we putting a battleship back out? And ultimately four of them. And I think it was just the calmness and the professional response given by the Secretary of the Navy. Just saying, sweepers, sweepers, man your brooms. I mean, you couldn't make that up if you tried. And seeing the President's reaction, commissioning the ship and when we lit off and the guns started to move and elevated and watching him just was just so special. That was a WETSU moment.
- [64:03]
A
Yes, it was. Mike Holmes, this has been an incredible conversation. On behalf of all of us here at the Battleship New Jersey now museum and everyone who walks our decks here today, we thank you. We thank you for your service, your leadership, for keeping our legacy alive. Yes. Show it. And to our listeners, thank you very much. If you haven't been aboard our great warship, the USS New Jersey, please come see us walk our decks, hear our stories. This ship isn't just steel. It is people like Mike who lived it, who breathed it, and who are still doing so. Very much so, Mike, we thank you and we thank our friends at elac. We thank Emma Hermo, our producer. Until next time, this is a WETSU live from the Battleship New Jersey. And we'll see you next time. Thank you.
- [64:49]
C
Operating engineers are the men and women that move mountains. And the engineers labor employer cooperative ELEC puts them to work. They create opportunities for the men, women and union signatory contractors of Local 825 repaving our roads, keeping our homes bright and warm, and even building our favorite team stadium. We understand, understand infrastructure. That's why ELAC and Local 825 are ready to get to work.