Belonging — Talina Zar E3

Summary

What Happened to Talina Zar: Episode 3 "Belonging" – Detailed Summary

Released May 14, 2025 by iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In Episode 3 of "What Happened to Talina Zar," titled "Belonging," host Melissa Jelten delves into the complex and unsettling circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Talina Zar during the COVID-19 lockdown. This episode explores Talina's deep involvement in the controversial Gorean subculture, inspired by John Norman's fantasy novels, and examines the potential dangers and interpersonal betrayals within this community.

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Background on Talina Zar

Talina Zar, originally named Jana Lovick, was a prominent member of the BDSM community and the Gorean subculture, which strictly adheres to the master-slave dynamics depicted in John Norman's novels. Talina's life was characterized by her commitment to these principles, ultimately leading to her mysterious disappearance.

Notable Quote:

"I've been a 24/7 slave owned by Master Zaryus since 2004. One of my friends calls me a pragmatic hedonist. I'm totally down with that."
– Talina Galloway [19:07]

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Understanding the Gorean Subculture

The Gorean subculture is based on the fictional world depicted in John Norman's "Gore" series. Set on a counter Earth called Gorr, the series portrays a society where men are naturally dominant, and women are inherently submissive. This philosophy has transcended fiction, fostering a real-life subculture that emulates these dynamics.

Notable Quote:

"Most Gorean slave girls, once they make the adjustment to the collar, are radiantly happy. Society, particularly its males, rejoices in their existence."
– John Norman [04:43]

Melissa Jelten discusses how this philosophy resonated with a niche group of readers, sustaining Norman's prolific writing despite significant backlash during the rise of feminist movements in the 1960s and 70s.

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Talina's Life within the Gorean Community

Talina's involvement began with her relationship with Tom, also known as Master Zarias. Their master-slave relationship was deeply rooted in Gorean principles, with Tom exerting complete control over Talina's life. Even after Tom's death, Talina remained under the protection of Marty Wolf, another key figure in the Gorean community.

Notable Quote:

"I learned how to shut up. I know it sounds simple and truly it is. However, the amount of willpower necessary to put this into practice is enormous."
– Talina Galloway [25:34]

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Talina's Online Presence and Community Involvement

Talina was an active user of FetLife, a social media platform for BDSM enthusiasts. Her profile, under the handle Talinazar, showcased her as a dedicated member of the Gray Eagle family, a collective within the Gorean subculture. She shared personal essays that revealed her vulnerabilities and aspirations, portraying a multifaceted personality beyond her submissive role.

Notable Quote:

"I've spent too much of my life being so harsh on myself... On more than one occasion I was thrown out of bars for fighting."
– Talina Galloway [21:00]

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Investigation by Jess: The Internet Sleuth

Jess, an internet sleuth from Minnesota, becomes intrigued by Talina's disappearance after discovering her association with the Gorean subculture. Determined to uncover the truth, Jess immerses herself in understanding BDSM and Gorean philosophies, connecting dots that others might overlook.

Notable Quote:

"I started reading the novels and then listening to them on audiobook, and it's different. It's not something I would read, I don't think."
– Jess [43:05]

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Expert Insights: Dr. Gloria Bream and Julie Fennell

Melissa interviews Dr. Gloria Bream, a sex therapist and BDSM educator, who provides a balanced perspective on BDSM practices versus the extreme dynamics found in Gorean subcultures. Additionally, Julie Fennell, a sociologist and BDSM community member, offers insights into the psychological motivations behind individuals choosing submissive roles and the community aspects that sustain these subcultures.

Notable Quote:

"We all feel like this is where the love is... We're not doing it to be emotionally hurt. We're doing it really in hopes of finding joy and ecstasy."
– Dr. Gloria Bream [11:13]

Notable Quote:

"For many people, it feels comforting to not have to be in control all the time. There's this feeling of glorious freedom..."
– Julie Fennell [29:32]

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Potential for Abuse within the Gorean Subculture

The episode does not shy away from the darker aspects of the Gorean subculture. Talina's writings reveal instances where the master-slave relationship crosses into abusive territory, raising red flags about consent and autonomy.

Notable Quote:

"Master reached out his arms... he forced me to my knees while calmly and quietly asking, did you forget something?"
– Talina Galloway [34:52]

Melissa juxtaposes these accounts with her background in reporting domestic violence, highlighting the troubling nature of such dynamics despite Talina's portrayal of them as fulfilling.

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Gorean Community Events and Practices

Talina and her associates participated in events like Gorefest, organized by Marty Wolf. These gatherings reinforced the master-slave hierarchy and fostered a sense of family within the subculture. The strict codes and rituals observed during these events exemplify the intensity of the community's commitment to Gorean principles.

Notable Quote:

"Learn the science behind serving table covers... feel the rush of performing a job well."
– Talina Galloway [27:15]

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Jess's Continued Investigation and New Clues

As Jess delves deeper, she uncovers connections between Talina and other members of the Gorean community, including Marty Wolf. Marty explains that Talina is now an "unowned slave" under his protection, a claim that raises more questions than answers about her safety and autonomy.

Notable Quote:

"He gave me a very PG version of things... it's very not my cup of tea, Jess."
– Jess [43:50]

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Conclusion

Episode 3 "Belonging" provides a comprehensive exploration of Talina Zar's life within the Gorean subculture and the potential risks associated with such extreme master-slave dynamics. Through investigative journalism and expert interviews, Melissa Jelten presents a nuanced narrative that challenges listeners to consider the fine line between consensual BDSM practices and abusive relationships.

Final Notable Quote:

"I don't think that when John Norman published this, he ever imagined that people would try to live like that... Would anybody like to live through Anna Karenina? I mean, fiction is an escape."
– Dr. Gloria Bream [09:40]

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Key Sections and Timestamps

• Introduction and Advertisements [00:00 – 07:48] – Skipped
• Gorean Subculture Overview [07:48 – 19:19]
• Talina's Profile and Online Presence [19:19 – 25:15]
• Expert Interviews with Dr. Gloria Bream and Julie Fennell [09:40 – 33:09]
• Gorean Community Events and Practices [46:54 – 51:12]
• Jess's Investigation and Uncovering Clues [40:39 – 56:30]

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This episode paints a vivid picture of Talina Zar's entanglement with a subculture that blurs the lines between fantasy and reality, shedding light on the potential perils of extreme lifestyle choices. Listeners are left contemplating the complexities of consent, autonomy, and the search for belonging within restrictive communities.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Earth could never know of Gorr, the world always on the opposite side of the sun. But Gorr somehow knew about Earth, as Tarl Cabot soon discovered. Taken by force to that savage world, Cabot was compelled to become a Tarnsman, a warrior trained to master the great warbirds of Korob.

[Melissa Jelten]

This book, it's not the type of fiction I typically gravitate towards its giving pulpy romance novel meets planetary sci fi Vibes. On the COVID is a suggestive illustration. A shirtless, muscular man brandishes a sharp weapon, his stance exuding dominance. Below him, a topless woman kneels, her head bowed in submission, her hands bound behind her back. Looming in the distance, a warrior rides a massive, savage looking bird. I read the first book for research purposes, but honestly, it was a struggle listening as an audiobook on double speed.

[Podcast Host]

Helped among the trees, on the clover, I threw her to my feet. She tried frantically to readjust the folds of her veil, but with both hands I tore it fully away and she lay at my feet. As it is said on Gore face stripped.

[Melissa Jelten]

The Gore series, spelled G O R, starts off pretty tame, following a British professor abducted from Earth and forced into the life of a warrior. On Gorr, Gore is different from Earth in a lot of ways. Fantastical creatures, homestones that hold mythical powers for different clans, that sort of thing. Plus there's your typical array of human activities. Plundering, nomadic wandering, kidnapping wars. But the most notable thing is that men on Gore can own female slaves. They're called kagira. They wear collars and have no rights. These women are considered akin to pets, and this arrangement is mutually beneficial, according to the philosophy described at length by author John Norman, as men are naturally dominant and women are inherently submissive. Here's a typical passage the likes of which is repeated ad nauseam throughout the series.

[Podcast Host]

Most Gorean slave girls, once they make the adjustment to the collar, are radiantly happy. Society, particularly its males, rejoices in their existence. The male fulfills himself in the mastery, and the girl, sheltered and cared for and nurtured and commonly loved, even madly, receives the strict, uncompromising domination without which she could not attain her full womanhood. Society approves of their status, and they themselves desire it. No wonder they walk with grace and beauty. No wonder they walk proudly. They have been found woman enough and feminine enough and exciting enough and desirable enough and beautiful enough to be put in the collar.

[Melissa Jelten]

So, yeah, unsurprisingly, the books were divisive. Released during the 1960s and 70s, as Women Fought for equality and pushed back against patriarchy, there was public backlash. Marion Zimmer Bradley, a sci fi author of the popular Mists of Avalon, shared a publisher with Norman and wrote a book in protest called Warrior Women, in which a female slave fights back against her enslavement. Yet the Gore books resonated with enough readers to sustain Norman's prolific output, roughly one book a year for over two decades. In 1987, the series inspired a Hollywood movie Just remember to hold me and treat me like a sling.

[Podcast Host]

We'll need some more weapons.

[Melissa Jelten]

It looks campy and was widely panned by critics at the time. But despite dismal box office numbers and reviews, a second Gore movie was released a year later. I can't even find box office numbers for that one, so it doesn't seem like it had much of an audience. And it was around this time in the late 1980s, that Norman was dropped by his publisher, a decision he has said was due to pressure from feminist editors. But he didn't stop writing. In the early 2000s, Norman took his work online, publishing more than a dozen ebooks since the advent of the Internet also fostered a devoted subculture of fans. Gore obsessives gathered in chat rooms to debate everything from traditional sword sizes to slave garments to how best to integrate the social structure of the books into one's life. In other words, how to be a Gorean. Not pretend, not role playing on Second Life, but how to be a master or a slave in the home, in the bedroom, in life period. Today, a niche community of self identified Goreans still exists. They practice master slave relationships modeled on the books keeping Norman's controversial vision alive. And that world, well, that was Talina's.

[Podcast Host]

Gorr was a world of slaves and beautiful women, of human domination by the alien secret priest kings. And it was also the world of Talina, the tempestuous daughter of Gorr's great warlord. She waited for the man who could subdue her, the man who would be her master.

[Melissa Jelten]

From iheart Podcasts. I'm Melissa Jelten and this is what happened to Talina Zar when Tom passed. I mean, she was obviously devastated.

[Talina Galloway]

Her world had kind of revolved around him.

[Julie Fennell]

They had one of those bonds that.

[Melissa Jelten]

You know, everybody could aspire to. Little towns have their skeleton. I mean, they're not without.

[Jess]

I'd done some Internet digging and then that popped up with the John Norman Gorean novels and I was like, what the hell are you people into? What is going on here?

[Melissa Jelten]

Episode 3 Belonging I had hoped to speak to John Norman, author of the Gore series, to learn more about his work and the subculture inspired by the books. But his current publisher told me that Norman does not want to be interviewed if the slant is going to be another judgmental feminist attack. He added that Norman is also over 90 years old and like many, that age can be a little cranky. So instead I, I talked to an expert who, despite being a feminist, was surprisingly non judgmental.

[Dr. Gloria Bream]

I don't think that when John Norman published this. He ever imagined that people would try to live like that. Nobody writes a novel thinking, now I'm hopeful that everybody will read my novel and live exactly like that. Would anybody like to live through Anna Karenina? I mean, you know, fiction is an escape.

[Melissa Jelten]

This is Dr. Gloria Bream, a sex therapist and self described kinkster.

[Dr. Gloria Bream]

It could have been the pure product of his imagination and his sexual fantasies, and not a world he would even choose to live in himself, but a fantasy world. And we're all permitted a fantasy world. I mean, I actually read a Gore book when I was probably. I was bored one night and I picked it up and I thought, whoa, this is really interesting. The vibe of the COVID was kind of sexy. It was a guy standing, looking all masterly and, you know, maybe a woman at his feet. It kind of got across its message to readers. I wasn't even aware I was kinky. It was just kind of interesting. It was a wonderful fantasy. And he wrote a ton in the series because the book sold a lot, probably to a lot of kinky people.

[Melissa Jelten]

Gloria has spent her career as a sex educator trying to reduce the stigma around bdsm, an acronym you've probably heard thrown around that stands for bondage, dominance, sadism, and masochism.

[Dr. Gloria Bream]

Certainly since the beginning of recorded history, you can find Roman wall paintings of people being whipped and having ecstasies, and lots of art from the Roman era on that tell us that people have always been interested in extreme or non conventional, non reproductive sex. Looking at it from the outside, it's definitely weird and bizarre, but looking at it from the inside, we all feel like this is where the love is. You know, the real, raw, primal love. We're not doing it to be emotionally hurt. Were doing it really in hopes of finding joy and ecstasy.

[Melissa Jelten]

Though the Gore books were titillating, Gloria never really connected with them. The strict gender roles depicted in the series felt anachronistic on Gore. Men were in charge. Women followed, listened, and served, often while scantily clad, which is why I didn't.

[Dr. Gloria Bream]

Like the book and I didn't care for the series because I'm feminist to the core, and I was from the age of 14, and I actually was raised that way by my parents.

[Melissa Jelten]

Gloria's introduction to Gore was brief, didn't leave that much of an impact. But later in life, when she immersed herself in the BDSM community, she learned that some people felt very connected to the books.

[Dr. Gloria Bream]

A few years later, when I finally did hook up with the BDSM world, there were Goreans among us who took various handles straight out of the novel. It was more about obedience and women serving the will of their master.

[Melissa Jelten]

There's no way to know how many people in the US or in the world call themselves Gorean or try to live according to the principles in the books. But if you move in BDSM spaces, you may come across them once in a while.

[Dr. Gloria Bream]

I once met a Gorean couple where the guy started to tell me, well, you know, all women were born to be submissive. And that was like the end the conversation right there, you know, because really, you know, there's no universal anything about male or female this world.

[Melissa Jelten]

It's been hard to pierce as an outsider reporter and a woman, Goreans are extremely protective of their lifestyle, knowing that their choices are probably not accepted in the mainstream. Those who did talk to me shared fears of being outed and losing their jobs or jeopardizing their families. In order to better understand what it even is to be a Gorean, I spent six months lurking in the online spaces where they hang out these days, Reddit and Discord, and listening in on these conversations I was able to glean some information. For example, there's a spectrum of Gorean participation. On one end are those who keep it virtual where they role play the master slave dynamic online, and on the other end are people who live every day like this. Couples who enter into a contract, sometimes written, sometimes not, where the woman submits to the man relinquishing her rights to choice, Freedom Agency. It sounds shocking, but for some people it is very sexy and very satisfying.

[Dr. Gloria Bream]

I do believe that Goreans, just like other BDSmers, are very choosy and careful about who they give power to and they reserve power for their masters. If you have two really good people who really are compatible, that's going to be fine. But if you are with somebody who is flawed or has mental health issues or is actually really a troubled person, it could be quite dangerous.

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[Talina Galloway]

I've been a 24. 7 slave owned by Master Zaryus since 2004. One of my friends calls me a pragmatic hedonist. I'm totally down with that.

[Melissa Jelten]

I'm looking at a social media account that Talina created. In her bio she describes herself and her husband Tom, AKA Master Zarias.

[Talina Galloway]

We're a Gorean family and belong to the Gray Eagle family. Previous to being owned by Master Zarius, I was a BDSM submissive to a variety of masters and mistresses. I've been in the lifestyle since I was 18.

[Melissa Jelten]

This is a dramatization of some of Talina's writing on FetLife, a dating and social media site for people interested in fetish and bdsm. Picture Facebook, but with dick pics and leather if you're curious. It's not safe for work unless your work is making a podcast about all of this. I was able to see Talena's profile simply by signing up for an account. As far as I can tell, there was a time when Talina was a prolific FetLife user. She connected with new friends, found events to attend, and shared a lot of personal writing. Although FetLife is primarily a sexual forum, there's not much on her page about sex at all. Most of what she shared was overwhelmingly wholesome little essays focused on the banality of everyday life and people would respond with kind comments. This was clearly her chosen community, where she felt safe to be herself.

[Talina Galloway]

I've spent too much of my life being so harsh on myself. My house isn't as clean as my mother's, my waistline isn't as small as someone else's, my hair is too stringy, my taste buds aren't developed enough.

[Jess]

Whatever.

[Melissa Jelten]

Talena revealed a lot about her life, her insecurities, her ongoing weight loss journey.

[Talina Galloway]

I tried on the cute pants first, and they fit like they were made on me. And it happened. A small smile curled the left side of my mouth and for the first time in many weeks, I was able to see my entire body in the mirror and I liked what I saw.

[Melissa Jelten]

Her adventures in baking a short time later.

[Talina Galloway]

Voila. An excellent dessert, which the guys at my office are enjoying right now. As I type this, I cut the result into squares and stacked them to make a cute little strata. Everyone here thinks I'm an excellent baker.

[Melissa Jelten]

Reading through these essays I got a real feel for Talina's personality. She's spunky and adventurous. In one post she talks about skydiving with her niece, but she's also not afraid to be vulnerable.

[Talina Galloway]

I started thinking about how so much of my life has been work to find the best balance between being tough and being soft. I went a little overboard in the toughness department, to the point where I had no soft edges at all. On more than one occasion I was thrown out of bars for fighting. A little before I turned 30, I started getting tired of always having to be so tough, so my pendulum swung the other way. I became all sorts of soft all the time. When I took off the exterior shell of toughness, my soft underbelly was all that was left. I cried at the slightest provocation, my feelings were frequently injured, and I showed hurt puppy dog eyes to my owner when he raised his voice just a few decibels. Okay, so being tough all the time was exhausting and being weak all the time was even worse. Sigh.

[Melissa Jelten]

Talina wrote a lot about her relationship with her husband Tom, who she refers to as Master Zarius or just Master.

[Talina Galloway]

How well did I adapt to being property? Well, that depends on whether you ask me or Master lol.

[Melissa Jelten]

I'm not sure exactly how or when Talina and Tom met, except that they both served in the military and by 2004 they were living together in Indiana. Tolina was 38, Tom 46, and it's possible that it was Tom who introduced her to Gore. According to his own posts on Fetlife, he discovered the books in his youth and they made a big impact on him. Here's a dramatization of Tom's writing.

[Podcast Host]

I began reading the Gore Books in 1979. Within them, the philosophical tenets of a man being a man and a woman being a woman rang true for me. There was a 25 year gap between starting my journey as a Gorian to mastering my first slave. I admit that mastering my Talina these past 10 plus years has been a very rewarding and insightful experience.

[Melissa Jelten]

According to her profile, Talina had been in BDSM type relationships since she was 18 years old. But with Tom she moved into something different, a master slave relationship that required her submission to him 247 I was.

[Talina Galloway]

Not used to not being in charge of my time tasks destiny. It was an ugly adjustment that ended up bringing depth and greater understanding in my relationship with Master. Because we both wanted to be together in our roles so badly, neither of us expected it to be so hard.

[Melissa Jelten]

They lived strictly according to Gorean principles, which meant that Tom was in charge of all decisions and Talina yielded control absolutely to her husband.

[Talina Galloway]

I learned how to shut up. I know it sounds simple and truly it is. However, the amount of willpower necessary to put this into practice is enormous. The self control practiced by all the slaves who I esteem is beyond imagining to most of those who don't serve.

[Melissa Jelten]

For most people, me included, the word slavery does not have any positive connotations. Wars have been waged to abolish it. Generations of people have worked to ensure no one endures such a fate, and here is someone voluntarily living this way. Honestly, I find it hard to wrap my head around and yet the way Tolina described it, their relationship sounded more nuanced than I had expected.

[Talina Galloway]

I see so many posts asking what is normal for a master mistress owner to do. This is my response. A real master gets up at 6am on the weekend to take the dogs out because his slave has a migraine. Our real master waters the basil plants when his slave is away, even if he doesn't like to eat the stuff himself. Our real master goes for a walk rather than taking his anger out on his slave. Our real master understands that his slave won't always perform perfectly while setting the atmosphere for perfection to happen. A real master punishes his slave when she does something wrong because he loves her. A real master uses his hands to hold and comfort a slave when she's overwhelmed with fear. These are all things that I believe a real master should do, and these are all things my master does regularly. I'm a blessed girl.

[Melissa Jelten]

Talina freely shared the inner workings of her relationship with the Gore community and over time became an expert, someone who guided others new to the lifestyle. I discovered from digging through her old posts that at some point she actually began formally teaching classes with Tom on how to be in a dominant submissive relationship. Here's a description of a class they taught in 2013 called Formal Dinner Service, where slaves were taught how to serve food while naked.

[Talina Galloway]

Learn the science behind serving table covers, how to serve formal table settings, napkin folding. Then go deeper into the mindset behind formal service. Take some time to to experience the thrill of coordinated movements. Feel the rush of performing a job well. Acknowledge the place deep inside yourself where a desire to serve naked lives. While you'll walk away with handouts, the most valuable gift you'll receive is the knowledge that setting and serving at a formal table is within your immediate grasp. After the class, join us for a luscious dinner where you can practice Your skills either as a diner or a server.

[Melissa Jelten]

Deep diving into the Gore series, the subculture that has cropped up around it, and Talina's embrace of its principles, I had so many questions. The most pressing being, why would someone so smart, self aware and opinionated like Talina want to engage in a dynamic like this? Don't get me wrong. There's a part of me that understands the allure of seating control. There are plenty of days where I feel so burned out that I don't want to decide anything. What to eat or what to wear, or even what show to put on to decompress. But as a woman, wife and mom, equity in my household is really important to me. My partner and I deliberately strive to share the mental and physical loads of life play acting these roles for kink and pleasure in the bedroom. I get that. But to live within this dynamic where the male partner always has the final say, it goes against every fiber of my being. Why would someone desire this?

[Julie Fennell]

For many people, it feels comforting to not have to be in control all the time. There's this feeling of glorious freedom, actually, in not having to make decisions anymore. You've just become an instrument of somebody else's will. And this is actually liberating because now, instead of being constantly faced with all of these choices that maybe overwhelm you, somebody else is going to make them for you. And that feels good.

[Melissa Jelten]

This is Julie Fennell, a sociologist and longtime member of the BDSM community who studies gender and sexuality. She's the author of Please Scream, A Story of Kink.

[Julie Fennell]

I guess the last thing is just providing pleasure and happiness to another person, which is a very human thing to enjoy doing that. You really get a lot out of seeing your dominant feel pleasure and be happy and knowing that that came from you.

[Melissa Jelten]

Julie told me that people who choose to live as submissives are oftentimes healthy, well adjusted and self confident, making the choice out of free will. But she acknowledges that's not the case for everyone.

[Julie Fennell]

I have data that suggests to me that a lot of people are motivated by unhealthy things, which unfortunately the BDSM community is terrible at actually having frank conversations about. I put the data in my book from 2017 and it's quite clear that submissives have lower self esteem than dominants do. I think a lot of times people are motivated to be submissives because they think they aren't good enough at being a person and so they want somebody else who they think is better at being a person to help them be A person.

[Melissa Jelten]

There's a stereotype that people who are into BDSM must have had bad experiences in their childhood that led them down this path, and that BDSM is a way to grapple with or relive those traumas. And maybe in some cases that's true, but as Julie explained it, many others just like the sensation of a whip on their skin or being tied up with ropes.

[Julie Fennell]

I can take them for a walk. I like putting people on leashes. It's fun.

[Melissa Jelten]

As she said, not everything has to be pathologized. Julie pointed out that a big draw of BDSM is the community aspect, finding others who don't judge you for who you are. Beyond online spaces like FetLife, it's not uncommon for BDSmers to congregate in person, whether that's at nightclubs, backyard barbecues, or or dungeons.

[Julie Fennell]

Any good sociologist can tell you that just being part of a community is usually very good for people's mental health. I think finding community is often the biggest reason why people end up being heavily involved in the BDSM subculture. Like, sure, they might like doing kinky things, but ultimately the thing that really gets them joy and why they keep coming back to this, what is functionally a social club, is because they like the people there and they feel emotional support and validation from them. On the whole, it's pretty beautiful to be around. It can be pretty beautiful to be around other people who share your outlook and values.

[Melissa Jelten]

I get that. But is the Gore community beautiful? I have limited insight, but the conversations I observed in Gore spaces were pretty misogynistic. In one discord forum I joined, the women slaves were constantly talked down to and seemed unable to share their opinions freely. Their names had to be in lowercase letters, and they couldn't even talk about themselves in the first she instead of I. It didn't take long for me to get kicked out of the forum for simply asking one of the women what it was like to identify as a slave. This Gorean culture I observed, it seemed to me to be a cover for old fashioned beliefs about the superiority of men.

[Julie Fennell]

I will hasten to add that that is like way outside of mainstream bdsm.

[Jess]

Right now.

[Melissa Jelten]

Gorean philosophy is an outlier in the BDSM world. Julie says that's because Gore really goes against the current understanding of gender, which is far more fluid and dynamic. She mentioned a survey she conducted among BDSMers, asking them if they agreed with the statement, I believe that men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive. Only 10% did.

[Julie Fennell]

BDSM subculture as a whole is extremely liberal for a variety of reasons. There's this thread in pansexual BDSM community that, like we're all, regardless of our gender, have all DDSM roles equally available to us. The idea of a system that would restrict that is very antagonistic to that norm. And so it's one of many reasons why I would say mainstream BDSM subculture tends to giggle a lot nowadays about Gore.

[Melissa Jelten]

Gore gets a laugh. The sci fi elements, the arcane beliefs. We are so far past women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, but that doesn't mean it's harmless.

[Julie Fennell]

It is not unheard of for people who are in Master slave relationships to say that they have given up their safe word, which means that like whatever the top chooses to do to them, the bottom has said that they will take it.

[Melissa Jelten]

Giving up your bodily autonomy, it can make you vulnerable to abuse, to being in dangerous situations. Which made me wonder, was Talina ever in harm's way? There was one essay she wrote that gave me the shivers.

[Talina Galloway]

Not long ago, Master and I had a we'll call it a difference in viewpoints. That sounds pretty benign, right? Hehehehe. That difference in viewpoint culminated in me making a conscious choice to not follow Master's protocols for greeting him when he came in one evening. Frankly, I had come to the conclusion inside my head that Master didn't care about the greeting ritual and wouldn't mind me skipping it. Boy, was I wrong. When I was close to Master, he reached out his arms. As his lips came close to mine, I thought we were going to have a hug and came kiss. Imagine my surprise when Master's hand went around my throat and he forced me to my knees while calmly and quietly asking, did you forget something? I believe he even had a smile on his face.

[Melissa Jelten]

As a reporter who has spent a decade writing about domestic violence, this story raises all the alarm bells. But I asked Julie what she made of it. She tells it as this story of like that she was grateful to be reminded of. She was happy that he cared enough about it that he would punish her and put her back in her place. But I've spent my career writing about domestic violence, and so for me it's hard to read that essay and not see it as abuse. And like I've seen a lot of victims of domestic violence really come up with really creative ways to justify the behavior and make sense of it in their own relationship.

[Julie Fennell]

You tell me this story and you say this is disturbing and I understand why? But I hear that story and I.

[Jess]

Think oh that's hot.

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[Chelsea Handler]

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[Dr. Gloria Bream]

No.

[Jess]

Not gonna say it.

[Melissa Jelten]

I don't say it.

[Jess]

I think there's something seriously wrong with John Norman and his followers.

[Melissa Jelten]

This is Jess, the Internet sleuth in Minnesota.

[Jess]

I'm not like out there. I am woman. Hear me roar, right? I'm not doing that. But it would be a cold day in hell before my husband whipped me or told me I could or couldn't do anything. Cause he would find himself outside the house.

[Melissa Jelten]

After finding out about Talina's disappearance from a Facebook post. It doesn't take Jess long to connect Talina to the Gorean subculture.

[Jess]

I did some like digging, like her name, Talina Zhar. I was like, that's, that's weird. So I kind of just googled and this Gorean stuff popped up. And then as you go through some of her friends, it'll say Gorian or master this or sister wife or just little odd tidbits. And I'm like, what is that? What is that?

[Melissa Jelten]

Scrolling through Talena's Facebook, Jess comes across A post from January 2020, just a few months before Talena goes missing. It's a photo of Talena's new Oklahoma driver's license, along with her story of dealing with the bureaucracy of legally changing her name.

[Talina Galloway]

Here's the conversation I had at the Social Security office today. Me, I've had a name change and need to get my car changed. Social Security worker. Why did you change your name? Because I wanted to. Did you get married or divorced? No. Then why did you change your name? Because I wanted to so you don't have a reason? Yes, I have a reason. The reason is because I wanted to. I don't feel like we're getting anywhere. Me same.

[Melissa Jelten]

So right before Talina disappeared, she legally changed her name, and not just her last name, both of her given names. She went from Jana Lovick to Talina Galloway. Galloway was Tom's last name. Even though they never formally married and Tom had been dead for over two years, Carrying on his memory in this way seemed important to her. And the name Talina. She'd been using that first name for years amongst friends and family. According to the petition she filed with the state online, she used the handle Talinazar for her social media accounts. Jess isn't sure where Zar comes from, but Talina. It appears she'd taken it directly from the Gore books. The Gore world is one Jess knows that nothing about, but she's willing to learn.

[Jess]

So I started reading the novels and then listening to them on audiobook, and it's different. It's not something I would read, I don't think.

[Melissa Jelten]

And how many did you read?

[Jess]

I think probably 10.

[Melissa Jelten]

While the rest of the country is exploring new hobbies during quarantine, Jess is getting a mini education in BDSM and Gore culture. And from what she learns, she. It seems like a subculture where women could easily be taken advantage of, hurt, or even killed. Jess knows that Talina's late husband Tom couldn't have been involved in her disappearance. But what about the other men in the Gore community? Men who saw women as property, Men who were not used to hearing the word no.

[Jess]

They have very black and white views on I'm the man, it's my job to protect. It's your job to submit to me and never ask questions, ever. You do exactly as I say when I say it, I'm going to put a collar on you. You don't eat dinner until I say so. You have sex with who I say so. You wait on me hand and foot, as I say. So very, very. Just dominant, submissive. Not like 50 shades of gray, but like some of the stuff I saw on FetLife. Because I created a fake profile to creep on these people. I mean, there's women in cages. There's women that they bleed. They'll, like, cut them so they bleed. They do something called kid play where they wear diapers and pretend they're kids. It's very not my cup of tea, Jess.

[Melissa Jelten]

And the Internet sleuths start wondering, is their main source Talina's friend Marty, also a Gorian, for one. There's that photo where he referred to Talina as another of his wives. And then there's his unusual nickname, Wolf or Wolfie.

[Jess]

I remember a conversation where we all refused directly to call Wolf Wolf because we were like, we're not calling you by some pseudo friggin, you know, master name. All of us were like, this is disgusting. We're not into it. And then I came to understand that that was not his Gorean name. So we decided to call him Wolf. And Wolf tried very hard for the first, I want to say, two, three weeks to cover up the Gorean aspect of it, even though we were very convinced that had something to do with it.

[Melissa Jelten]

You did think it had something to.

[Jess]

Do with it initially? I did, absolutely.

[Melissa Jelten]

Still, Jess is not afraid to ask Marty Wolf pointed questions about Gore.

[Jess]

He gave me a very PG version of things. He had told me that it was like live action roleplay of Dungeons and Dragons, but they have sex with each other. That's how he explained it to me. And I said, oh, okay. I didn't want him to think that I was super judging him because I don't want to make anybody feel bad about their sexual preference or what they want to do, as long as everybody's gung ho for it.

[Julie Fennell]

Cool.

[Jess]

Sounds good. But the more I talked about it more, it sounded like these women weren't. They were consenting, but they were all abused or had had really bad lives. And I didn't think that they were mentally capable really, of making the choice to consent to something like that. When I questioned him on it, he just shrugged it off like that. I didn't know what I was talking about, and maybe I don't. I'm not sure.

[Melissa Jelten]

As the COVID shutdown stretches from days to weeks, Marty lets down his guard, opens up about Gore life. He eventually explains to Jess that Talina and Tom and Marty and his wife were all in a Gorean family together called the Gray Eagle family.

[Jess]

To take their family group seriously. The Menno had rings of an eagle, and they all had the same ring because they were in the Gray Eagle family. He was very proud of it. He thought it was great.

[Melissa Jelten]

Talina seemed to be proud of it too. Here's how she identifies at the top of her FetLife profile.

[Talina Galloway]

We are a Gorean family and belong to the Grey Eagle family, who hosts an event in Oklahoma called Gorefest. We always have a fantastic time.

[Melissa Jelten]

Gorefest was a festival created by Marty. Every so often, he and his wife invited Goreans from across the country to their sprawling property in Oklahoma for a weekend of revelry. Talina and Tom loved going to Gorefest, so much so that they ultimately moved to Oklahoma to be closer to Marty and their Gorian friends. It was also at Gorefest where Talina met Corey, who went on to become her roommate after Tom died. I found an old website that Marty ran, dedicated to Gorefest, that includes this little history.

[Podcast Host]

In 1999, a few Gorians from online HTML chat decided to get together for a small gathering to share in real time what they felt in virtual time to honor the spirit that John Norman wrote about in his books. It would be a time for all to come together and share thoughts and ideas while enjoying for a short time what each role plays online, whether free or slave, to enjoy the freedom of being themselves. From the original 13 that were here in the fall of 1999 for the first gathering to the record 75 attending in 2004, there exudes an astounding feeling of family.

[Melissa Jelten]

Clicking around on this old website, I found the list of events. Sparring, axe throwing, Tug o' war, and serving. Slaves could take part in a position competition, testing their knowledge of the 10 submissive positions they should be able to assume upon command according to Gorean philosophy. Don't look these up at work either. And there was also, sigh, a slave auction. On another page was a list of Gorefest attendees divided into two categories. In one list, I found Master Zarias, Master Shakar, Marty. In another, the slave list, Talina. Zar. Zar, as in belonging to Master Zarias. By the time Talina went missing, Master Zarias was dead. So did Talina belong to someone else? Marty explained to Jess that Talina was now an unowned slave. Marty had Talina's, quote, protection collar, which meant that he was looking after her. He wasn't her master, but he was a protector of sorts. Though what she needed to be protected from was unclear.

[Jess]

I asked about the protection collar he said he had for Talena, and then he explained to me when Tom died, he moved in there to help Talina because she hadn't dealt with her own money or anything. When Tom was alive, Talina had no control over her own life. Everything was decided by him. When she went to work, what she wore, what she ate, when they ate, any money she made went straight to him and he covered. You know, he paid the bills. So when Tom died, Wolf lived there and did all that for her. So he said that it was his Talina wife, so it was his second wife, and said the collar was just to protect her from other Goreans trying to take her collar. And at that time, I didn't know what that meant.

[Melissa Jelten]

Other Goreans trying to take her collar. Jess is suspicious of the list of men who attended Gorefest over the years, Masters whose real identities are unknown to her. But Marty is adamant that all this Gore stuff has nothing to do with Talina's disappearance. She's looking in the wrong place. Jess thinks there's more he's not telling her. But as time goes on, she starts to believe he's being earnest.

[Jess]

Um, we built kind of a trust, you know, I feel like he would tell me little bits and pieces of things about his relationship. Relationship. And he'd become really vulnerable with me. He'd cry. He started telling me personal stories about his life, his family, his mom, and we just built a relationship. He'd like to FaceTime with me, and he'd see the kids in the background, and he'd say nice things. You know, he never said anything creepy to me or the kids. To me, he'd sometimes say creepy things, but never to my children. He'd always, oh, look at Maddie. It looks like she's grown since last time I saw her. She looks beautiful. Like, things that you would say to me, you know, you'd be like, oh, your daughter's so pretty, or something. You know, we back and forth, like you'd say nice things about people's kids to them. And we just got close.

[Melissa Jelten]

The two are an unlikely pair. A nosy bartender in Minnesota, a geeky Gorean master in Oklahoma, having intimate conversations deep into the night. Trauma, bonding in the depths of COVID isolation, when all of a sudden, a new clue takes the investigation in an entirely different direction. And I'm telling my buddy this as we're sitting in the garage, and he. He said, do you not think that you just got rid of envy and the possible thing? That's next week on what happened to Talina Czar. What Happened to Talina Zar is a production of iHeart podcast. It's written, reported, and hosted by me, Melissa Jeltson, with writing and story editing by Lauren Hanson. Our executive producer is ryan Murdoch. For iHeart podcasts, executive producers are Jason English and Carl Cadle. Fact checking by Savannah Hughley. Zoe Denkla is our associate producer. Jeremy Thahl is our editor. Original music by Aaron Kaufman with additional music by Jeremy Thal and K. Gideon Crevicet. Episodes are mixed and mastered by Carl Cadle. Voice acting by Lizzie Gore, Chris Ferry, Stephanie Frame, Pete Monica and Molly Maslin. Our logo is designed by Ido Moore. Thanks so much for listening. Does friendly have a taste? If it does, it's probably like hello's peppermint flavored anti plaque and whitening toothpaste. Brush away plaque, show tartar who's boss and remove surface stains to naturally whiten. Hello's thoughtful and flavor forward products make brushing your teeth feel like a confetti filled bathroom dance party. So say hello to hello with the always cruelty free, never tested on animals toothpaste that's made to spread smiles. Visit helloproducts.com and let hello add some everyday Yay into your life.

[Podcast Host]

Spring is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed.

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[Podcast Host]

That's a no. But a banana? That's a yes.

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[Melissa Jelten]

No.

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[Chelsea Handler]

For details all right, listen up people. It is Chelsea Handler and we need to talk about something really important. Orgasms. You heard me right. Orgasms. If you're not making them a priority, pinkcherry.com is there to fix that. Orgasms can boost your mood, lower stress, and even help you sleep better. That's probably why people do it right before they go to bed. And let's face it, with stress levels rising faster than anything else these days, we could all use a little release, if you know what I mean. So if you care about your sexual health. And seriously, who doesn't, head over to pinkcherry.com they've got everything you could ever imagine to help you get there. From the iconic Magic Wand to WE Vibes collection of couples toys to the game changing womanizer, Pink Cherry has a curated collection of hundreds of the best brands to make sure you're having the best time of your life. Whether you're flying solo or inviting someone else to the party. Make your sexual health a priority. Head to pinkcherry.com and save up to 80% off site. Wide pleasure is just a click away. Pinkcherry.com if you know you owe.

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[Podcast Host]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.