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- [00:00]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. With almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments, Bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify bill pay and maximize cash flow. Want to learn more? Visit bill.comproven for a special offer
- [00:39]
Acast Announcer
ACAST powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend
- [00:48]
Zibby Owens
Hi, this is Zibby Owens, host of Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books in my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like Grammy Award winning singer Alicia Keys, critically acclaimed author Judy Blume, and Academy Award winning screenwriter John Irving every single day. With Totally Booked, you aren't just listening, you're part of the story. So don't miss out. Follow Totally Booked with Zibby on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now.
- [01:41]
Acast Announcer
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
- [01:52]
Narrator/Interviewer
Imagine for a moment that you wake up tomorrow and your freedom is gone. Not because you did something wrong. Not because you made a terrible choice or crossed the line you knew you shouldn't cross, but someone else had and have let you take the fall. Your freedom is taken from you by forces you can't control, can't reason with, and can't fight. You know you're innocent. You know it with every fiber of your being. But the people with the power, the ones with the uniforms, the badges, and more importantly, the keys. Well, they're telling you something different. They're saying you're guilty and there is nothing you can do about it. You can't scream your way out of it. You can't fight. You can't lash out. Because all of that will just make it worse. All of that just confirms what these people already believe about you. I deal with these stories constantly on my other show, One Minute Remaining. The anguish of innocent people trapped in the American justice system, desperately trying to prove what they know to be true while battling against the legal maze so complex it feels like another language completely. The frustration, the helplessness, the slow psychological torture of being powerless against a system that was supposed to protect you. But now imagine something even more terrifying. Imagine it literally is another language, another culture, another country, another thousands of miles from home, from anyone who knows you, anyone who can help. And you're told you'll be spending not months, but years in prison in conditions you can't fathom, under laws you don't understand. How would you cope? How would you survive? How do you adapt when everything, your freedom, your identity, your very sense of reality has been stripped away based on something you didn't do? Well, that was the reality for Barry Holtz.
- [03:50]
Barry Holtz
Are we on? There he is.
- [03:53]
Narrator/Interviewer
There he is.
- [03:54]
Barry Holtz
Can you hear me, mate?
- [03:55]
Narrator/Interviewer
I've got you loud and clear, my friend. How are you?
- [03:57]
Barry Holtz
Brilliant.
- [03:58]
Narrator/Interviewer
How's your day been, mate? Barry found out the answers to all of those questions in the worst way possible. With almost 10 years inside Indian prison, taking the fall for someone he thought he knew, and an ordeal that would test every limit of human endurance.
- [04:17]
Musician/Singer
Moon in the sky I'm looking at the moon in the sky this shouldn't come as a surprise But I can't sleep War in my mind I'm trying to fight a war in my mind I don't know who's the winner tonight but it ain't.
- [04:47]
Narrator/Interviewer
Chapter one. I thought it was nothing. India is home to over 1.4 billion people. It's a country stooped in history, faith as well as chaos. The streets are busy, the traffic is wild. It's hot and humid. But with beaches, mountains, hills and coastline all jammed into a relatively small geographical area. The climate is quite diverse. It's a country that around 40,000 tourists will visit each year. And a man from Manchester in the UK was one of those many who loved India. Little did Barry know that India would end up going from his little piece of paradise to. To his utter hell.
- [05:41]
Barry Holtz
I used to travel to Goa in India quite a lot from around 2001. I first went there. I loved the place, the culture, the beaches. And I loved. It was so cheap because I'm quite tight and so it's been so cheap, like a bit of a paradise for me. Used to travel there, try to get once a year, basically over Christmas period. I used to go with different girlfriends or family members, whatever.
- [06:07]
Narrator/Interviewer
Goa is a state in western India with coastlines stretching along the Arabian Sea. It's got A long history as a Portuguese colony prior to 1961. And it's evident in its preserved 17th century churches and the area's tropical spice plantations. Goa is also known for its beaches and is a very popular tourist destination. As Barry says, he traveled there quite a bit, going with family, girlfriends and the occasional mate. And one particular year he and a mate decided to take a trip together. Was this a. A person you'd known for quite a while or is it just someone recently?
- [06:53]
Barry Holtz
Well, yeah, yeah, I'd not. I'd known him for a few years. He was a sort of. He was a good friend at the time, you know, it was quite pal
- [07:01]
Narrator/Interviewer
with the trip to India. Was it you that suggested going or was he. Did he already like going to India? How did that all come about, that he went with you?
- [07:07]
Barry Holtz
Well, what had actually happened was he traveled to India the year before with me and the following year at the Christmas we went like for a couple of weeks over there. I think it was November time. Then the following year, like I say, 2006, I was over with my girlfriend. He booked for the same Christmas period with his girlfriend. He was staying in another area, but we met up a few times and had drinks and whatnot. Even though I've been quite a few times, I wasn't that familiar with a place, you know, further in inland. Yeah, just used to stay on the beaches the year before. I traveled with him and I took home a few ornaments, like a Buddha and like an elephant. They were quite heavy ornaments, you know, just gifts for the family. And at customs at the airport, they charged me like over £100 for them, you know, to get them free because of the weight. So this guy, my friend, suggested that the post office is a lot cheaper.
- [08:02]
Narrator/Interviewer
So just a bit of friendly advice from Barry's mate that he keeps in the back of his mind as they continue about their holiday fun, enjoying the sun, the beaches and the crystal blue waters of the Arabian Sea. One day, the friends decide to head off to visit a local market called Anjuna Market. Described as delightfully chaotic, the flea market is billed as one of the best places to visiting Goa, a treasure trove for those who love to shop. With thousands of stalls adorning the market every week and Barry picks up a
- [08:34]
Barry Holtz
few items and we bought a few. Like I bought Garnier greens and T shirts and incense sticks and loads of bits, basically because my sister had a stall as well, so she used to sell them on as well. So basically we're saying, why are you taking home in the luggage I said well I'll pay the extra, the weight. So he said no, no, it'll only cost you 40 pound at the post office. But where is it? Said I'm posting mine. He said I'll bring all the details. And next day brought the declaration form. I filled that out with what was inside, a passport copy. I give him the papers basically and that was that for me. Come home, couple of weeks later, he was sort of in touch saying, have you received your, your gifts and stuff? What you bought was like, no. So I can't understand why I've not received him. So anyway, the only value, the value is maybe 50 pound of everything. So I didn't really think nothing, I
- [09:33]
Narrator/Interviewer
wouldn't worry about it. Yeah.
- [09:34]
Barry Holtz
Now then he heard a rumor sort of in February because we come on in the January. I heard a rumor from, from friends and stuff saying he put some sleeping tablets in your box. Now by saying that I just farted through a few strips and because you buy them over the counter basically in the, the pharmacy. We used to get Viagra and we used to buy a few strips from the pharmacy because it's, you know, it's just something that you can buy over the counter. Not thinking it was a, you know, it's not heroin, it's not cocaine or something, you know. So basically I just, I just thought nothing of it. We've lost them. It's not a problem.
- [10:09]
Narrator/Interviewer
The drug that his mate was rumored to have chucked in with his parcels home was Diazepam, which for those who are unfamiliar, it's essentially Valium that people can use as an aid to help them sleep. Here in Australia and many western countries around the world, Diazepam is a drug that you can only get with a prescription from your doctor. But in India at the time that Baz was visiting, it was happily sold over the counter. As he mentions, he thinks nothing of it and goes on about his life. And in March he heads back to India.
- [10:44]
Barry Holtz
Now, the declaration formula filled out, you had to fill where you were staying. So the hotel I was staying at stayed in the same hotel in the match. I arrived three months after I had a letter from the receptionist. They'd give me the letter. I opened it. It was a letter from the customs in Mumbai saying basically they've been misdeclared the goods and inside the sleeping tablets, if you want, if you want to collect them, come to Mumbai, which is like a 3 hour flight or 12 hour drive or something, you can collect your goods, but if you want, you want these tablets, you need proof of purchase, basically a medicinal license to say that you can. You're allowed to have them to export or whatever you're going to do with them. So I just threw the paper away. I just thought, it's nothing.
- [11:34]
Narrator/Interviewer
Barry continues on with his holiday as planned and then heads home. He says when he gets home, he did try and get in touch with his mate about the letter he'd received, but he says this guy had gone over to Ireland and he couldn't reach him. However, yet again, there was no issues that Barry needed to worry about, he thought. He threw away the letter and carried on with his life. He would return again to India both in 2007 and 2008. He and his mother had decided to go in on a property together in India, type of investment holiday home that they'd purchased off plan.
- [12:10]
Barry Holtz
It was like £26,000 so you could pay over five years. So both our savings was putting money in. Every year we'd go over and we'd. We'd buy this property off plan sort of thing. So 2009, the property was ready. I went home for a week on my own to furnish it, basically, and I went over in the November. I went on my own this time.
- [12:47]
Narrator/Interviewer
So Barry lands, as he always did in India, excited. His apartment is finally ready to take possession of. He's going to have a holiday and furnish his new place. He grabs his bags and makes his way to immigration. As he steps up to the desk, he hands his passport over. Little did he know that there was a lookout circular against his name in every airport in India. A lookout circular is essentially a letter used by authorities in India to check whether a traveling person is wanted by the police. And this one against Barry's name had been in place since 2006.
- [13:27]
Barry Holtz
It's like it was a big terrorist in all the airports within India.
- [13:31]
Narrator/Interviewer
But you'd never been stopped previously?
- [13:33]
Barry Holtz
No. Maybe three or four times I traveled back over even though. So it's a human error. They'd not noticed, actually, that, you know, these guys wanted for something. And then that's where the nightmare began.
- [13:54]
Narrator/Interviewer
He's taken to a side room and he says it all starts out quite civil. He's brought a cup of tea and he sits and waits for the next six hours as customs officers fly in from Mumbai to pick him up. He's nervous, of course, but he knows he's done nothing wrong. Well, they'll get to the bottom of this and they'll have it all straightened out by the afternoon and he'll Be back to his holiday in his new apartment the next day. Well, the officers arrive to inform Barry that he needs to travel with them to Mumbai and he's soon on another plane that afternoon.
- [14:29]
Barry Holtz
Yeah. So basically they come over and they explained on the plane that this is about sleeping tablets, the Azipam sleeping tablets to me. So put two and two together and then it was worrying about the quantity. How many was in these boxes that he sent, you know. So we landed there, got interrogated and there's a few slaps about and stuff. But I heard some horror stories in the prison where they electrocute your testicles and put your own stretches and all sorts. You know, it's so archaic. You know, it's so sort of back in the day, these countries, there was fire. Me meant they believe, you know, they believe what they was. I was telling them, you know, this is the truth, what's happened. And then they only seen, like one parcel and they found this other parcel, you know, so they say, no, no, this other one. And then it just all went crazy. I was interrogated till five in the morning, then took to the court the next day. I was walked around like a circus animal. You know, everyone's staring and pointing and it was just so bizarre. In our countries, you can get a lawyer first before you make a statement or you make it, you know, there you've got to make your statement. And they was writing stuff down in India and I don't know what they're writing. So like I say, it was just. I was just in another world, you know, it was just so bizarre.
- [15:50]
Narrator/Interviewer
Barry makes his statement. He's got no idea what's being written. And eventually he's given a phone to speak with a lawyer. He speaks with a man named Tarek Syed who tells him not to worry, he will meet him at the court in the morning.
- [16:03]
Barry Holtz
Gets to the court, a guy runs down the stairs and he goes, Shakespeare. And he goes, okay, okay. So says Tariq said he went, yeah, yeah, yeah. Goes up the stairs, comes down, turns the back. He said, how much have you got? So I had roughly 70 pound in the rupees on me. So I'll give it a minute. That'll do. That'll do. Goes in the court, sat on the floor in the back of the court. They're all talking. Next minute, guy in another suit comes in, a tall guy, and he says, barry, ulcer. I'm so excited. No, he's terrified. No, I'm sorry. No, he is basically got cheated.
- [16:43]
Narrator/Interviewer
Barry has his initial court appearance where plenty is discussed. He stands there lost, confused as to what is going on and what on earth has happened to his life. All of a sudden his attorney turns to him and tells him he's off to jail.
- [16:59]
Barry Holtz
He turned me to the side after the judge said, you know, you get a two week extension. He said, you're going to go to the jail. And he said, be prepared basically because it'd be nothing like you've ever seen before.
- [17:12]
Narrator/Interviewer
Jesus.
- [17:12]
Barry Holtz
You know, it's not like your jails in England. And I'd never even been to the jail in England, you know, it was my worst nightmare. So yeah, it was a big shock basically.
- [17:21]
Narrator/Interviewer
Yeah, I'd imagine. Obviously going into a jail as a westerner in India, I mean you're pretty outnumbered, you don't speak the language, completely different culture. I mean it would have been terrifying. I mean, you hear all these horror stories about normal prison. Well, now this is in India.
- [17:37]
Barry Holtz
I mean, well, I mean you had to adapt to the prison life. And I mean it's all like a barrack system. In the first jail, which is called Arthur Road.
- [17:46]
Narrator/Interviewer
Arthur Road. It's known for its overcrowding, inhumane conditions, abysmal health facilities, rampant corruption and sodomy. It's a holding facility and maximum security prison located in one of the most crowded areas of Mumbai. Home to gangsters, murderers, terrorists, rapists and VIP prisoners. Despite recommendation by various government and judicial committees to decongest this prison, not much has happened over the years. It was first built in 1926. It's counted as one of the largest and most crowded prisons in India, which sits on around two acres of land. And it's had its fair share of violence. In fact, just three years before Barry would find himself incarcerated in 2006, there was a deadly clash between two gangs that saw many inmates injured. Many claim there is rampant corruption throughout the prison and would say that jail officials would use old inmates to abuse and intimidate newcomers. And Barry was about to be the new guy and he instantly struggled with the conditions.
- [18:55]
Barry Holtz
You got your two foot mat by six foot, like you lay on the floor, you got your washing line where you can hang your clothes, you know, all in the barrack. But these barracks are made for 80 men, rectangular stone structures, but there's 220 men in that time. Deary me, there's six toilets, only three work and a stink. And you know, a few early fans and you can imagine the heat. Yeah, it was very, very hard to adapt.
- [19:36]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash. Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. With almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments, Bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify bill pay and maximize cash flow. Want to learn more? Visit bill.comproven for a special offer.
- [20:14]
Acast Announcer
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [20:22]
Jameela Jamil
What if you laughed all through your commute? Or if you heard the funniest story while at the gym? Well, now you can. I'm Jameela Jamil and guests on my new podcast Wrong Turns share their most mortifying and hilarious disaster stories. I'm talking people like Mae Martin, Bob the Drag Queen, Katherine Ryan, Jake Johnson, Margaret Cho, Simon Pegg, Penn Badgley, and so many more. So listen wherever you get your poggio Wrong Terms where dignity goes to die.
- [20:52]
Acast Announcer
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
- [21:04]
Narrator/Interviewer
Chapter 2 a prison within the Prison Although being a westerner in an Indian prison may seem like it's a death sentence waiting to happen, he says being a white foreigner he believes worked in in some way to his favor as inmates were fascinated by him and especially his tattoos.
- [21:24]
Barry Holtz
The old he was touching, you know, like tattoos, I'd be there and the Village People, you know, they don't understand anything, They've never seen tv. Then they touch in my arms and I was, I was going crazy. I was nearly killing everyone in the first couple of months. The bathing situation, it's in a. Well, you've got to run down in the morning, fast, get your jug and get washed as quick as you can, you know. So everything was just horrendous. The noises, the smells. I mean, the smells you can't describe, but it was just an absolute living nightmare. Yeah.
- [22:03]
Narrator/Interviewer
This is now Barry's new normal, his new hell. And the worst part was he hadn't even been sentenced yet. That would take years.
- [22:15]
Barry Holtz
I was only sentenced after three years, eight months. And that was a fast trial.
- [22:20]
Narrator/Interviewer
Holy shit.
- [22:21]
Barry Holtz
That was a fast trial that apparently.
- [22:24]
Narrator/Interviewer
Jack, I'm assuming you don't have access to phones in there so you can't like call family and go, what on earth's going on?
- [22:30]
Barry Holtz
Well, money gets everything. A little nocular cost 250, 300 pound. But, but also I would say the Biggest, we call them grass but they like the biggest culture of informants they call cabra, that's what they call them, they call them cabri in Hinda.
- [22:49]
Narrator/Interviewer
Right.
- [22:49]
Barry Holtz
There's so many, you can give them the phone to use and then they'll go and tell the officer, gotta be so, so careful. Oh, it's horrendous mate, horrendous.
- [23:03]
Narrator/Interviewer
In the prisons that I deal with on a day to day basis with my other show, One Minute Remaining. The prisons are all across the United States and I hear all the time about the violence. Men and women fighting over possessions, inmates regularly being extorted for canteen and creature comforts, gambling and drug debts will find you in serious situations very quickly. But Barry says it's not like that in India.
- [23:29]
Barry Holtz
The superintendent pulled me to the one side and I was nearly beating people up and I was, you know, I was on my guard basically. You know, you don't know what to expect. But yeah, it's not like an American jail where it's full of violence. I mean this violence happens but there's nothing to fight over. You've got one TV channel that a lot of the fights actually happened over water because these poor people would have a pot to eat out of and actually washed from as well. So they'd all be trying to get the trickles of water and fight me the next minute. Bang on the red. No, the first few mornings it was funny but after a bit, yeah, yeah. So the superintendent said to me, right, I'm gonna put you in a new area. I went to this new area. One of the dons was there from the, from the bomb blasts in 2006 I think or 93 bomb blasts. This was, it's called Mustafa Dosa.
- [24:22]
News Reporter
A series of 13 coordinated blasts ripped through Mumbai leaving over 250 people dead, 700 others injured and property worth 28 crores destroyed. More than two decades after a series of blasts ripped across Mumbai leaving 200 people dead. The top court is all set. The Special Terrorism and Disruptive Activities act court on Friday pronounced its long pending decision. In the 1993 Mumbai blast case. The TADA found Mustafa Dossa Firoz Khan, Tahir Merchant, Karimullah Sheikh Abu Saleb and Rhea Siddiqui guilty of conspiracy and murder activity.
- [24:57]
Barry Holtz
He's very big don. He was a millionaire basically, used to run the jail, he used to pay the guards, used to get McDonald's in some days and all types of stuff. It was crazy. So I was living nicely for three months. Then that building was falling down. He had 24 hour running water. And it was such a massive, massive commodity. It was the biggest thing that you can have. Rather than have it once in the morning, once at night you can have water whenever you want, you know.
- [25:25]
Narrator/Interviewer
He would eventually be moved to another area of the prison that had been built especially to house a terrorist.
- [25:39]
Barry Holtz
Now Andabarak is in Hindi, it's a prison within a prison, circular structure where they can have a guard walking around the middle. It's for, it's for high security prisoners. There was a guy called Ajmal Khasab. He's the lone surviving terrorist from the 2008 Mumbai terror attack.
- [25:57]
News Reporter
It began just after 9 o' clock on the evening of November 26 when the gunman landed at the gateway of India in inflatable boats.
- [26:05]
Narrator/Interviewer
On Wednesday 26th November 2008, 10 members of a militant Islamist organization from Pakistan began to carry out a series of 12 coordinated attacks across Mumbai that would last for four days.
- [26:20]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Heavily armed Indian troops clad in black have been raiding hotels in Mumbai trying to free hostages and confront the terrorists who plunged the city into chaos.
- [26:31]
Narrator/Interviewer
Over the course of the four days of terror more than 170 people would lose their lives.
- [26:37]
News Reporter
We will take the strongest possible measures to ensure that there is no repetition of such terrorist acts.
- [26:45]
Narrator/Interviewer
On the final day the attackers were cornered in two hotels that would be surrounded by Marine commandos and members of the NSG commandos. The security forces stormed the hotels and and nine of the ten attackers were killed.
- [27:00]
News Reporter
Across the peninsula troops secure Naruman house but the bodies of a number of hostages are found in the debris. And finally on Saturday, in a last maneuver by Indian security, the siege at the Taj was brought to an end. The last remaining gunmen had been dealt with but scores of people had lost their lives.
- [27:17]
Narrator/Interviewer
The only one to survive and be apprehended was Ajmal Kassab. Ajmal Kassab is the only gunman to have been captured alive charged with waging war against India. His trial is underway in Mumbai and
- [27:31]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
could end in a death sentence.
- [27:34]
Narrator/Interviewer
Authorities would build a bomb proof barrack within Arthur Ode to ironically protect him while he was tried and eventually would be sentenced to death. That death sentence was carried out in 2012.
- [27:55]
Barry Holtz
So yeah, he got moved out basically so I got moved in there and then over the next three years I was in there in the underbarrack and I met a sort of some massive gangsters that got extradited from Thailand, become one of me like closest friends. His actual opposites was in the next area and I was Friends with them as well. I'm sort of friends with everybody. And it was fine, though, because I'm not in there, you know, I'm not in their politics. You know. Some of the people I met, Bollywood stars. I don't know if you've heard of Bollywood.
- [28:24]
Narrator/Interviewer
Well, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, well. And some of them were getting locked up because they're superstars in that country.
- [28:30]
Barry Holtz
Well, you have a couple of them in rape cases. There was one in for a Batman to suicide for one girl because he dumped it and stuff. Because the law is just so crazy, absolute crazy. You can. I've met guys that say, you know, they'd offered to marry a woman, six months later, they didn't marry her. So they get done for rape. That's why the judicial system is so backed up. The Chief justice was on the TV one time actually crying. He said, we will never clear the backlog because his people in jail for 10, 12 years and the sentencing may be only seven.
- [29:05]
Narrator/Interviewer
A rare sight in recent memories. The Chief justice of India getting emotional and in tears, appealing to the government to increase the strength of judges, which has been in cold storage for over three decades.
- [29:16]
News Reporter
American Supreme Court decides 81 cases per year. The entire Supreme Court average disposal of an Indian judge is 2,600 cases.
- [29:29]
Narrator/Interviewer
Barry is doing his time waiting for trial. And he says as he's waiting, every two weeks the prosecution are bringing forward more and more witnesses.
- [29:41]
Barry Holtz
So basically every two weeks you get a witness. So they produce 16 witnesses from somewhere. So basically the post office master. So there's no CCTV of me going in, obviously, because I didn't go in there. But they can't produce none of them either. But the handwriting's mine. I filled it out. I told them that. So they didn't need a handwriting expert. But they brought like, they have punch witnesses. So you'll punch one, I'm punched too. So you will get the box and say, that's the box. I will take the tape off. Punch three will set the bags out. Punch four will set the stuff out. Punch five will make sure it's that. So they have all these witnesses, basically. And all the guys I was speaking to be saying, they said, cheap tiger. Meaning, like, you'll go. You'll go like you got a small case, it's nothing. Do you know what I mean? So it went three years, eight months. Every two weeks, wait for your guard. Sometimes there'd be no guards escort. Sometimes the judge won't be present, the prosecutor won't be present, or, you know, Lawyer mainly wouldn't be present because he's got that many people. It was just a shit show, basically. So actually, funnily enough, the judge, on his summing up when I did get sentenced, said to me, I'd like to thank you both the prosecutor and the defense for doing such a speedy trial. And you know what he said? I sentence you to 20 years. But I didn't hear that. He said, I sentence you to 10 years for possession and 10 years for export. I wasn't caught in possession and I wasn't exporting them, but they obviously presumed they did. In his eyes, it took all day, you know, my mum, obviously England's five and a half hours behind. My mum was up from 4am waiting for the verdict. You know, we've been waiting for three years, eight months. All my family and I asked the judge for a phone call. He said no, absolute. I just think he hated me. I heard him talking once about the ranch and I'd sit behind at the back while they're speaking and picked a bit of Hindi up. And I know what they talk about. And the prosecutor and my lawyer, they'd be pulling each other's coat tails and that. And I'm thinking, this is my life and you're all right pulling each other's things, flicking his head and that, you know, behind the judge's back, acting like
- [32:01]
Narrator/Interviewer
a couple of school kids.
- [32:02]
Barry Holtz
Well, yeah, and it's fine. Do it on someone else's life. Yeah, it's my life. Yeah, you give me 10 plus 10. Now, there's no provision in Indian law to do a consecutive sentence. Yeah, it should be concurrent. I get back to the jail about 10 at night. I had to phone my family. Luckily I was with Santosh in his cell like a big gang. Said he had a phone. Phone me, mum. I saying, Look, I've got 10 years, but there's a way out, you know, there's another way out. I can get parole and we can do summer. Because he knew some setting people, big people. So there's another way out, don't worry.
- [32:44]
Narrator/Interviewer
Barry has received a 20 year sentence. But he didn't at the time realize this. He believed he'd been sentenced for 10 years for his crimes. 10 years for possession and 10 years for exporting. What Barry didn't realise at the time was this sentence was to run consecutive, which means back to back serve 10 years and then you serve the next. Now, in many jurisdictions around the world, you will get multiple sentences. However, they are to be served concurrently. So at the same time for Instance, you may get three years for a robbery, six years for having a firearm and 15 years for an attempted murder. All to run concurrent. So the most you will serve is 15 years. Even though he was unaware that his sentence was actually 20 years at the time, he is still, of course, struggling with the thought of having to do 2010.
- [33:44]
Barry Holtz
Got to do it not once again, but twice again. That three years every eight months felt like 38 years, you know, so it was a. It was a big head. And I've gone into the Barrett number eight and there's a guy there from London he was in touch with. That was the other English guy that I met over there and basically said, I'm really sorry, mate. I can't believe he's giving you 20 years. I went, it's not got 20 years. He pulled the newspaper out. British man gets 20 years.
- [34:21]
Narrator/Interviewer
Chapter three in isolation. You find out exactly who you are.
- [34:27]
Barry Holtz
Doesn't get on my charge sheet and everything. Me conviction copies. Look through me judgment copyright 10 years for possession to run consecutive, not concurrent. So finish 10 and do another 10. And if I don't pay, it was about. Worked about 5,000 pound at the time. Rate of exchange. Did pay that fine as well. I got an extra four years. So 24 years, in essence, for 75,000 sleeping tablets. So my options were, because we've got a bilateral agreement, you can be extradited back to your own country and then do 50% of the remaining sentence. It takes up to 18 months, apparently, to do. I would have done maybe five years total by then. And out of the 10 years, I would have done two and a half in England. But I had 20 years on paper, not 10. So I had no option but to go to the High Court to fight it. The High Court took six years.
- [35:41]
Narrator/Interviewer
At this point, Barry is just shy of a decade of being incarcerated in India. Three years and eight months waiting to be sentenced and now another six waiting for the decision from the High Court. Once the High Court had heard all of the evidence against him, they would take another three months to hand down their decision.
- [36:01]
Barry Holtz
I got sentenced on the 5th of July 2013 and I got acquitted on the 5th of July 2019. Exactly six years from sentence to acquittal. And all my arguments were finished, like between the prosecutor and the defense again before the judge. That was finished in, I think it was March. I had to wait three months for the verdict.
- [36:27]
Narrator/Interviewer
Must have been the worst three months of your life.
- [36:29]
Barry Holtz
I mean, well, that was the hardest three months. Every day listening for the Tannoy you know, to shout my name. They say like telepath, bistro, like you, you play and you part and you bet in. You take that and you're gone. So I think every day at weight and by this point I'd actually managed to arrange every two weekly or three weekly phone calls on the superintendent's phone with a three way conversation with the embassy involved. So it was good. So we're still keeping up to date because I didn't have the phone at the time.
- [37:02]
Narrator/Interviewer
At any point, did you regret not having just gone down the route of the whole going back to the UK and doing your time there?
- [37:09]
Barry Holtz
No.
- [37:10]
Narrator/Interviewer
Right.
- [37:11]
Barry Holtz
I'd say, because do you know what I do? I try and be positive. I try and take the positives out of everything.
- [37:16]
Narrator/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [37:17]
Barry Holtz
And it's a bit of a universe, you know, now I can get in my hot bubble bath and I feel like a king. Yeah, I do.
- [37:24]
Narrator/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [37:25]
Barry Holtz
I can switch my light off at night. It's not on 24 hours, you know, and I just feel so privileged. It really opened it. When you're on your own sort of 15 to 17 hours a day in your own cell, because I did have my own cell towards the end. You've got a lot of you time and you can find out who you really are and you can sort of really structure your life and think, you know, you're only here so long and you have got a grab everything, you know, with two hands.
- [37:58]
Narrator/Interviewer
Barry was finally a free man and heading home from being a prisoner for almost 10 years. And sadly, when he arrives back in the UK, Covid hits not long after. And then he, he would lose two of his closest supporters not long after
- [38:17]
Barry Holtz
his release, unfortunately, I come home, Covid hit. I lost my stepfather February 21st, and then I lost my mum sort of the year later then as well. And we didn't get the time to do everything, you know, the stuff me mum done for me, I couldn't have done it, you know, she was just, she was my angel, you know, without her I couldn't have done it. And just a shame that we didn't get that time, quality time, you know, for a holiday and. But, you know, it's life. We all, we all have ups and downs, I suppose, mate, don't we?
- [38:52]
Narrator/Interviewer
Well, yeah, I mean, some of us have bigger ups and downs than others and you know, obviously what you went through was just utter insanity. Did you ever track down this guy, you know, that put you in this position?
- [39:02]
Barry Holtz
Well, I believe he was around my area and you know, when I come Home. I was hunting for him and I was driving there. I known address is his mums and stuff wouldn't like to get his family involved. And then I thought, you know, if we see it, what we're going to do, well, they end up sort of really earning to the point where I'll get another 10 years in jail or something or more for murderer. And I just thought, you know what? I've got to move on. I've got to move on. And you know, because I mean was trying to chase him up to hell with money at the time and he done nothing. You know, if he, if he turned around and said there's a few thousand. Well, we lie years we got ripped off with different lawyers, try to do different things and it would have sort of softened the blow. But yeah, but like I say, karma, karma me, I believe in karma. So we'll get ease eventually.
- [39:52]
Narrator/Interviewer
How did you go mentally sort of adjusting back into sort of normal civilization back home?
- [39:58]
Barry Holtz
Well, it's a funny question. It's because I always thought at the time I was just me. Now it took me 12 months, I'd say to sort of readjust because I still had the Indian headwater, you know, and I was still speaking Hindi. The odd word, Hindi word had come out. You're in that culture. I mean, I come home, I sat on the floor to have me tea. What was going, what you doing? I was like, oh yeah, the chair. She said to me, sleep on the floor tonight. I said, not a chance. Getting in that double bed. Got right in the double bed and slept like a baby. I did on this. Yeah. I said, you just got to adapt to situation. People say I could never do it. And I look back and I used to say it, I couldn't survive. And people have been there and they say I've been here for bed three years. How have you done it? And then you just find you do day by day and. But if you've got the support network that I had and all the, you know, the love behind me. I had three grandkids while I was in there, you know, so I wanted to meet them. So there's so much going for you. Just call. I used to look another thing, there's a lot of disabilities, people with no arms and they had to get people to wash their ass for a. You know, and it's like, I'm not that bad, you know. People in there were loving to eat rice three times a day, you know, because they've never had a juicy steak and stuff, you know. So I Think what you miss more, what you've, you know, if you've had something, you're gonna miss it a lot more. So it's harder for people that have experienced luxuries and good living to sort of live like, like that.
- [41:49]
Narrator/Interviewer
You'd think after his experience, he would never want to set foot back in India ever again. But strangely, he says that not long after he returned, returned home, he felt that he would like to go back to Goa. However, thankfully, he would never actually make it.
- [42:06]
Barry Holtz
18 months after I come home, I fancy going back to Goa. It was only a month after that when I was thinking of doing it. There's a, there's a place in, just outside Manchester. The Openshaw International Police sent me a letter saying India had wrote to him asking for an order of service. Now he asked me a letter what that means and it's basically they wanted me back in the country so they could challenge my High Court acquittal. Because I got acquitted in the High Court, you see. Yeah, they wanted to challenge that in the Supreme Court. That would have took maybe another 12 years.
- [42:39]
Narrator/Interviewer
If you'd gone any earlier, they would
- [42:40]
Barry Holtz
have got me in that system and
- [42:42]
Narrator/Interviewer
they would have trapped me.
- [42:43]
Barry Holtz
Yeah, yeah. So now when I travel, I go
- [42:50]
Narrator/Interviewer
west, completely the opposite direction.
- [42:52]
Barry Holtz
Barbados and stuff. This side only, you order. Because even if I was going to go to island and they had to make a detour and land in India. Yeah, you would be like, you just never know. Me just never know, you know.
- [43:11]
Narrator/Interviewer
Barry Holtz found himself held essentially captive. Now, of course, he was being held as a prisoner by authorities that believed him to have broken the law. The conditions were terrible and his day to day life was bleak. But as he said, he never faced violence, never really feared too much for his life. For him it was the mental anguish of not knowing when he would be able to return home to his family. In Barry's worst case scenario, that could have meant 20 years behind bars in India. A pretty heavy emotional toll. However, what would happen if you took all of that angle, all of that emotional toll and added the fact that you may never go home, that your captives may in fact murder you to make a political statement, what if your captives weren't people who were part of a recognized judicial system? What if they were in fact part of a known terrorist organization and an organization that were known for beheadings and violence of unspeakable magnitudes? What if you were being held captive by the Taliban?
- [44:17]
Barry Holtz
He jumped to my bed with a knife and he said, don't worry, it's not for you. I just wanted to show you the knife I killed an American with. I cut this throat and I'm like, oh my God.
- [44:25]
Narrator/Interviewer
Next time on what I Survived.
- [44:28]
Musician/Singer
Moon in the sky. I'm looking at the moon in the sky. This shouldn't come as a surprise, but I can see sleep war in my mind I'm trying to fight a war in my mind I don't know who's the winner tonight, but it ain't me.
- [45:05]
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- [46:05]
Acast Announcer
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Christian Bale was preparing for his role in American Psycho. Dressing the part, hitting the gym for the first time in his life, even getting his teeth redone. There was just one. One problem. He didn't actually have the part. Leonardo DiCaprio did. Listen to our podcast what went wrong every week as we unearth the chaos behind Hollywood's biggest movie flops and most shocking successes. Available wherever you get your podcasts,
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