North Korean Crypto scam? P2

Summary

What I Survived — "North Korean Crypto Scam? P2" (March 31, 2026)

Podcast: What I Survived
Host: Jack Laurence
Guest: Christopher Ems

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Episode Overview

In this gripping continuation, host Jack Laurence delves deep into the extraordinary ordeal of Christopher Ems, a young British crypto advisor caught in an international legal trap following his well-documented, but ill-fated, trip to North Korea for a cryptocurrency conference. The episode follows Chris through North Korea, the curious US indictment, his sudden arrest in Saudi Arabia, and eventual flight to asylum in Russia. Alongside first-hand accounts of arrest, incarceration, and bureaucratic limbo, the episode exposes the Kafkaesque reality of international law and the collateral damage inflicted by overreaching state power.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The North Korea Crypto Conference: Far From Sinister

• A Bizarre, Yet Innocuous Event
  • Christopher describes the conference as "incredibly poorly organized" ([06:43])
  • Talks centered on generic, copy-pasted blockchain topics taken straight from Google.
  • "It's like if you went on Google and typed in 'what is blockchain' and just did a copy paste." – Christopher Ems ([06:56])
• No Valuable Secrets Exchanged
  • The attendees were an uninterested, seemingly bused-in audience.
  • "Anything we said, even the stuff they've quoted in the indictment against me, it's all public knowledge." – Christopher Ems ([10:04])
• Conference "Mal Suits" Misrepresented
  • Wearing North Korean-style suits was meant as a joke, not a gesture of officialdom ([10:45]).

2. The US Indictment and the Aftermath

• Sudden Realization of Legal Trouble
  • Chris hears of Virgil Griffith’s arrest two years later: "I saw from that indictment, I had a very strong suspicion that I was one of the people named as one of the co-conspirators." – Christopher Ems ([12:00])
• Initial Legal Advice: Don’t Worry
  • As a non-US citizen, Chris’s lawyer believes the charges have no teeth, but—
  • "Sleep well. So I was like, okay, fine. Went on with my life as you would..." – Christopher Ems ([12:50])
• Virgil’s Downfall: Naivety vs. Intention
  • Virgil walks into the US Embassy, gives up his phone, talks without a lawyer.
  • "He’s clearly someone that isn’t on the same wavelength as you and I... At the same time, caused a massive mess..." – Christopher Ems ([13:22])
• On the Perils of Plea Bargains
  • "The prosecution will usually come to me and say, look, you say you're guilty, and we'll make sure you do, say 10 years. But if you decide to go to trial and you lose, you could be looking at 30 years or a life sentence." – Jack Laurence ([15:35])

3. Proffer Sessions and Legal Limbo

• The Attempt to Cooperate
  • Chris, through a former prosecutor, initiates 20+ hours of "proffer sessions" with the US government.
  • "We’ll give you a deal... testify at Virgil's trial. We also want you to plead guilty for wire fraud." – Christopher Ems ([16:39])
  • Chris refuses to plead guilty to something unrelated, feeling railroaded.
  • Advised again: "You have never lived in the US... just forget it." ([18:55])

4. The Interpol Red Notice and Saudi Ordeal

• Sudden Detention in Saudi Arabia
  • On a routine business trip, Chris is flagged at the airport: "America, Interpol, red, very bad. And I'm like, okay. Well, this shit's got real." – Christopher Ems ([19:20])
• Arrest and Prison Life
  • Held in a cell with 30 others, he receives unexpected camaraderie.
  • "You see how kind and lovely these people are. They gave me something to eat." – Christopher Ems ([23:37])
• Saudi Legal Process and ‘Justice’
  • Interrogation: "Shall we send you to America now or do you reject extradition? I said, I reject extradition." ([25:53])
  • Warned: "Be prepared to be here for a very long time." ([26:02])
• Temporary Relief & Ongoing Uncertainty
  • Released on bail, but with passport confiscated and bank accounts frozen.
  • "I do not have, nor can I open a bank account in any other country that is in any way affiliated with the United States." ([28:43])

5. Diplomatic Dead Ends and Final Escape

• Unresponsive British Embassy
  • The UK Foreign Office offers no assistance.: "They were next to useless... So essentially, they just left me stranded here." – Christopher Ems ([32:23])
• Desperate Measures: Private Jet Escape
  • Only way out: a private jet directly to Russia, funded by a friend ([33:59])
  • "Even at the airport, we didn't know whether the travel ban had been lifted... That money could have gone right down the drain." ([34:33])
• First Taste of Freedom
  • Upon landing in Russia: "He waves me through, tells the guy, just stamp that. And he goes, welcome home. And that was it." – Christopher Ems ([36:41])

6. Life in Russia & Ongoing Resolve

• No Harassment from Russian Authorities
  • No KGB visits, straightforward asylum process ([37:02])
• Reflections on Justice and Extradition
  • "I'll spend now the rest of my life fighting the injustices that you inflict on other people." – Christopher Ems ([37:57])
• Can’t Return to the UK
  • Fears immediate extradition if stepping foot in the UK due to US-UK treaties ([37:40])
• Resilient Tone and Ongoing Battle
  • Chris remains defiant, promising to use his experience to help others.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the Conference’s Substance:

  • "They bring in these people. None of these people look remotely interested in what we're talking about... All we're doing is we've got these pieces of paper, they don't make any sense, and we're reading along this absolute garbage"
    — Christopher Ems ([07:16])

• On the US Legal System:

  • "There's so many people that I believe to be innocent that have basically been naive when they've gone into an interrogation with law enforcement, not realizing that they're not your friend and that they're targeted just to incarcerate you and get a prosecution."
    — Christopher Ems ([13:22])

• On Prisoners’ Kindness:

  • "You see like how kind and lovely these people are. You know, they gave me something to eat and they said, look, next stage they'll take you to the interrogation."
    — Christopher Ems ([23:37])

• On Escaping Saudi Arabia:

  • "The only way out is to fly private, right? Which is an opulent expense. But being in crypto, I'm very fortunate that I've got a very—a few quite wealthy mates."
    — Christopher Ems ([33:59])

• Arrival in Russia:

  • "He goes, welcome home. And that was it."
    — Christopher Ems ([36:41])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:30] — Chris describes DMZ visit and North Korea’s optimism post-Trump summit
• [06:43] — Arriving at the conference: farce and confusion
• [09:29] — Addressing the indictment’s quoted statements
• [12:00] — Revelation of FBI interest after Virgil’s arrest
• [13:22] — Virgil’s naivety and the dangers of unprotected US interrogations
• [16:39] — Extensive proffer session, US offer to plead guilty to wire fraud
• [19:20] — The Saudi airport arrest, Interpol red notice explained
• [23:37] — Prison camaraderie and extradition advice from other detainees
• [28:43] — US freezes all his international banking
• [32:23] — The unhelpful British Embassy and decision to head to Russia
• [33:59] — Private jet escape plan, funded by a crypto friend
• [36:41] — “Welcome home” in Russia, start of new chapter
• [37:57] — Chris’s vow to fight injustice

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Conclusion

Through raw, detailed storytelling, the episode paints a chilling picture of modern extraterritorial justice and the human cost of bureaucratic overreach. Chris Ems’s ordeal—beginning with a misadventure at a dull crypto conference and spiraling into years of arrest, legal uncertainty, and exile—serves as a cautionary tale about international law, due process, and the often tragic collision between technology, travel, and geopolitics.

Chris’s closing resolve:
"I'll spend now the rest of my life fighting the injustices that you inflict on other people so that you can't do it anymore." ([37:57])

Transcript

[Jack Lawrence]

Hello Legends. Before we get into the episode, just a quick heads up if you have completed season one of what I Survived. Firstly, thank you for the incredible support for the show and all the lovely comments. I truly appreciate it. I'm madly working on season two which will be out for you very soon. In the meantime though, I have just dropped listed as season two in what I Survived a previous show that I created a couple of years ago called Wanted. The entire show is there for you to binge while you wait for season two of what I Survived.

[Christopher Ems]

Foreign.

[Acast Announcer]

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[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

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[Christopher Ems]

you can't run a business.

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They share real tips and so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target Supplier Diversity was having office hours.

[Pace Case]

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[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

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[Acast Announcer]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Pace Case]

Acast.com what does it mean to live a rich life? It means brave first leaps, tearful goodbyes, and everything in between. With over 100 years experience navigating the ups and downs of the market and of life, your Edward Jones Financial advisor will be there to help you move ahead with confidence. Because with all you've done to find your rich, we'll do all we can to help you keep enjoying it. Edward Jones Member, SIPC

[Acast Announcer]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend.

[Pace Case]

Hi, I'm Pace Case.

[Christopher Ems]

And I'm Bachelor Clues.

[Pace Case]

We host Game of Roses, the world's best reality TV podcast. We're covering every show on reality TV at the highest level possible. We're we analyze the Bachelor, Love is Blind, Perfect Match, Vanderpump, and anything else you find yourself watching with wine and popcorn.

[Christopher Ems]

We break down errors, highlight plays, MVPs, and all the competitive elements that make reality TV a sport and we interview superstar players like Bachelorette Bristow and Big

[Jack Lawrence]

Brother champion Taylor Hale.

[Pace Case]

If you want to know so much about reality TV, you can turn any casual conversation into a PhD level dissertation. You definitely want to check out Game

[Acast Announcer]

of Roses Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize advertise their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

[Jack Lawrence]

The wanted poster has been around since the 1700s. In the United States, slave owners would circulate descriptions of runaway slaves in an effort to force their return. However, the idea of itemizing the country's most hardened criminals originated back in 1949 when a newspaper article profiled several, quote unquote tough guys who were clear in the sights of the FBI. The writer of this article had quizzed the director of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, over a game of cards. After seeing just how popular the story became, Mr. Hoover would approve the idea of releasing a top 10 list as a way of soliciting tips and other helps from the general public. The first name on that list was released in March of 1950, over 70 years before a young English guy named Christopher Ems would find himself on that very list. My name's Jack Lawrence. Welcome to Wanted.

[Acast Announcer]

I'm a wanderer of the soul before the end I plan to be whole But I know I lose myself along the way what's gone is gone what's past is past Let me leave what belongs in the past.

[Jack Lawrence]

So Christopher Ems is a young bloke from the UK who has found his way into the world of crypto. Working for a company called Bitcoin.com. he's invited to North Korea for what he's told is a cryptocurrency conference. So far, the trip has been really what he'd expected. A little bizarre, but nothing at all seemingly that sinister. In fact, if you want to see just what it was like for Chris and his group of other tech enthusiasts on this tour of North Korea, you can just jump onto YouTube and watch any of the many videos of others who have taken a trip here, because every single foreigner gets exactly the same experience and structured tours. However, when Chris arrived in North Korea, it was slightly different because, in fact, it hadn't been long since the American President Donald Trump famously shook hands with the North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.

[Christopher Ems]

We went to the demilitarized zone one day on a very bumpy road out of Pyongyang, basically doing what you can do from one side on the other side. And we were told that when we were there. Really interesting that, you know, we're really excited as North Korea that, you know, we're working towards peace with America. Here's the tree that Donald Trump planted. The two leaders shook hands. Trump on South Korea, Korean soil, Kim Jong Un in the North.

[Jack Lawrence]

They were separated only by a narrow

[Christopher Ems]

concrete strip, the demarcation line between the two Koreas. President Trump asked and was invited to cross. The first sitting American president to set foot on North Korean soil. So we're like, you know, I'm like, sweet, this is, this is great. This is the last time. It sounds like everyone's friend. And it was really interesting going down these ones because you saw South Korean and North Korean soldiers having cigarettes together and chatting. It was a very different environment than, you know, what we're currently living through.

[Jack Lawrence]

So far so good. But eventually it is time for the so called main event. The reason they have all been brought to North Korea, the cryptocurrency conference, which Chris says seemed incredibly poorly organized.

[Christopher Ems]

I mean, we go back and they said, okay, tomorrow's the conference. And we were like, okay, what conference? Because we've not been given anything, right? We've got no materials, there's no anything. And eventually we're given these sort of pieces of paper that are basically copied and pasted from Google, really basic stuff. It's like if you went on Google and typed in what is blockchain and just did a copy paste. And they said, look, these materials have been approved. Can you all speak on one of these topics? So essentially we sat there, looked at each other funny and said, oh, who wants to do this? Okay, you have this, you have this, you have this. I can't remember the ones I got. Really off the top of my head, I know that Virgil got one, which is in the indictment, which is blockchain and peace. Anyway, so we rock up at this building which they call the high tech park. And it's a very impressive building from the outside, right? So it's got like a planet on the top. And you go in, again, impressive building, no one in it, right? So you go through, given a tour, and then we get taken to what can only describe as a big conference room, like a boardroom you'd see in a, in a bank. We go in and we go. And they go, okay, talk about this stuff. And they bring in about, I don't know, I'd say It was around 20, 30 people. I mean, the American indictment said it was hundreds. It wasn't hundreds of people. So they bring in these people. None of these people look remotely interested in what we're talking about in my view, and obviously I'm not from the North Korean government, so I can't tell you who, but in my view, these were people that have been bussed in, right, that are just there to be there. They need an audience. None of these people are remotely interesting. And obviously this is monotonously boring because all we're doing is we've got these pieces of paper, they don't make any sense, and we're reading along this absolute garbage. And of course, you know, this is where we go into the indictment. Of course, when you're doing that, you improvise, right? Because you're not just going to read a piece of paper that makes no sense.

[Jack Lawrence]

Reading this indictment against Chris from the United States. They have a paragraph that is supposedly word for word what Chris would get up and say at this conference, and it states the following. It's a great honor to be leading this delegation here in Pyongyang to explain to you a bit about finance and more specifically about blockchain within finance. My name is Christopher Ems. I am the technology advisor to the Korean Friendship association, which has done a lot of work outside in support, support of the DPRK and the great leaders Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il. So today we're going to explain to you a lot about blockchain, and we're going to talk about how that relates to finance in general, more specifically towards payments and how you can use this technology here in the DPRK to start with. I'm sure a lot of people in this room work within the banking system will understand how predominantly the United States controls the way in which money moves around the world. And this can be very, very unfair.

[Christopher Ems]

And, you know, they. They quote me, the indictment of coming up and presenting the beginning of the group. Now, I did that, but wouldn't you do the same as those people? You're in North Korea. You're not going to go up and say, oh, hi, hi, guys. I hate North Korea. It's shit here. I'm not going to come in and say, this is a load of shit. This is an authoritarian regime. But no, I'm not. I'm going to say nice things. So that's what I did, and that's what we all did.

[Jack Lawrence]

So the conference continues on and Chris says, it's so utterly boring and monotonous that people are starting to fall asleep.

[Christopher Ems]

We do this thing. It's so boring. I fall asleep. And most of the audiences fall asleep. You can hear people snoring. You can imagine. It's just bizarre. And, you know we get up, we give these talks, none of us think anything of it afterwards, because we haven't said anything that is remotely classified, confidential or something that you haven't got from these Google sort of sheets. So there's nothing that any of us thought was, you know, remotely wrong with talking at this thing. And anything we said, even the stuff they've quoted in the indictment against me, it's all public knowledge. I didn't tell them anything that they couldn't have found on Google, like, easily.

[Jack Lawrence]

One thing that would be brought up in the indictment against Chris and Virgil would be certain outfits that they would wear to attend this conference.

[Christopher Ems]

Virgil, myself, and another, an Italian guy called Fabio who was on the trip with us. We bought those North Korean mal suits and we wore them to the conference as a joke, whereas the US have said that we were wearing them because we were some sort of officials. That's absolutely not true. It was just a joke. That's how big a joke this whole thing was. So maybe, obviously it was a silly joke, but I always thought if anyone has a common sense and they look at the evidence of this, they'll just see it for what it is. It was a joke. We come back to the hotel that night, they were like, look, that was a really great conference. We had a great time. And I'm thinking you didn't like, none of us had a great time, but okay. And they took us to the fairground in Pyongyang, which is quite fun, actually. And then they took us for a Korean barbecue dinner, right, which was very nice. And that was it. Got on the plane, got our passports back. See you later, you know, bye. Bye. Off we went back to Beijing. And then everyone made their, you know, went their own separate ways from there back home. And that was the conference, that was the trip in its entirety, and that was that.

[Jack Lawrence]

Chris leaves North Korea and continues on with his life for the next two years, hearing absolutely nothing about the trip or any issues the FBI might have with what had gone on. Until one day he gets a message.

[Christopher Ems]

I always say my life changed dramatically in November of 2019. So I remember it really well. So at the time, I was in my apartment at the time in Malta and someone messaged me and go, didn't you go on that weird North Korea conference? And I was like, yeah, what about it? Someone went, oh, they just arrested this American guy. And I looked and it was Virgil. And I read the indictment. And I could see the. I could see from that indictment, I had a very strong suspicion that I was One of the people named as one of the co conspirators. Turns out I was right. From that point on, I was like, okay, shit, something's going to go down.

[Jack Lawrence]

Now. Instead of ignoring the situation, he's not a US citizen after all, or running away even, Chris's first thought is to find out what on earth is going on and did the FBI want to speak with him. So he jumps on the phone and gets himself an American attorney who can subsequently reach out to the FBI and find out what's going on.

[Christopher Ems]

And I said, look, if this is a problem, it's better I face this head on. Let's face it. And you know, I'm pretty sure be exonerated from this because it's entirely, excuse my French, it's entirely a load of bullshit. So let's face it, the lawyer calls me back, he goes, chris, I've spoken to them. They've got no further questions at this time. You are not an American citizen. There's probably something else to what this virtual fellow has been up to that you aren't involved in. Sleep well. So I was like, okay, fine. Went on with my life as you would, but kept following this case and just the audacity of the things that he was being accused of. I mean, don't get me wrong, Virgil and I wish him all the best, by the way, and you know, hopefully one day maybe he'll get to watch some of this stuff. And I feel really bad for him, but, you know, he was in a way, a bit of an idiot. He didn't really tell us that he'd been to the embassy and they told him not to go. He didn't tell us that. When he came back, he decided it would be a good idea to walk into the US Embassy in Singapore and give them a load of magazines and tell them about his trip. He didn't go into any of the interrogations with the FBI with a lawyer, and he voluntarily gave them his mobile phone, which just basically allowed them to skew the evidence in their favor without him having any kind of defense. And, you know, meeting Virgil in the short time I did, he's clearly someone that isn't on the same wavelength as you and I. And that's probably what makes him a brilliant academic. At the same time, you know, caused a massive mess that I think could have easily been defended in a court of law if you hadn't given the prosecutor all of the. Anything that they could. You know, you deal with this all the time, Jack, when you speak to incarcerated people. I Think, you know, a lot of time, people, especially in the U.S. you know, because that's been part of my life for such a long time now, researching it. There's so many people that I believe to be innocent that have basically been naive when they've gone into an initial interrogation with law enforcement, not realizing that they're not your friend and that they're targeted just to incarcerate you and get a prosecution. So I think that was really what happened in this case.

[Jack Lawrence]

As Chris says, Virgil would seemingly go above and beyond in which to help the FBI with their inquiries as to what he was doing in North Korea. He would in fact, also, on more than one occasion, fly himself to New York to sit down with them for further discussions, handing over his phone voluntarily to be looked at. I mean, it doesn't exactly sound like the actions of a criminal mastermind. Nonetheless, Virgil would eventually, like so many, take a plea deal instead of risking a trial.

[Pace Case]

Former Ethereum developer Virgil Griffith, sentenced to over five years in prison after pleading guilty to one count of conspiracy to violate international sanctions against Ethereum.

[Jack Lawrence]

Developer Virgil Griffith has pled guilty to a conspiracy charge in North Korea sanctions case.

[Pace Case]

Ethereum's foundation's Virgil Griffith pled guilty Monday

[Christopher Ems]

to charges related to his trip to

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

North Korea for a blockchain conference.

[Jack Lawrence]

It is a situation that I'm all too familiar with in my other show, One Minute Remaining. Men and women accused of crimes that they didn't do will so often agree to plea deals because if they choose to go to trial, they're at risk of incredibly high sentences should they lose. The prosecution will usually come to me and say, look, you say you're guilty, and we'll make sure you do, say 10 years. But if you decide to go to trial and you lose, you could be looking at 30 years or a life sentence. So inevitably, many will take the deal. Chris, although being told by this American lawyer to just forget it, is still understandably uncomfortable with what's happening. He decided once more to reach out again to the FBI and see if. If he can get everything cleared up.

[Christopher Ems]

So I say to the lawyer, I said, look, go to them again and ask them if they want to speak. So he goes to the FBI, said they don't want to speak. And this is where it gets really interesting, right? So he goes, but I've got a friend of mine who used to be a prosecutor in the Southern District. You can engage him, and I think that he can get them to talk to you. So I'm like, okay. So we have this call with this guy and he goes, yeah, I've just left the Southern District. I was a prosecutor, I know the two prosecutors on this case send me x thousands of dollars and you know, we'll have a chat and we'll make sure you're all okay. I go, okay, let's do it. Why not? I just want to sleep a bit. We get on the call now and they're ready to talk. Surprise, surprise, right? So we go through around 20 something hours of what the US government called proffer sessions, which is where it puts an agreement that you sign with the government that says that anything you discuss in these meetings they can't use as evidence against you and you can't mention to anyone else apart from obviously your lawyers on the call. So we go through that and it just becomes evident in these meetings, I'm going through 20 odd hours. And you know, it's incredibly stressful. I'm doing it all via video conference, similar to how we're talking now and they're raking over everything. And I just thought, this is ridiculous. And at the end they sort of said, okay, Chris, you know, we'll give you a deal. And this is really exclusive because I've never said this and obviously in Russia now I can. They said, okay, well here's the deal. You can come over, we'll write a nice letter to the judge saying that you've helped us and you can testify at Virgil's trial. We also want you to plead guilty for wire fraud. And I said, but I haven't done, I'm not a con man. And they said, well, in 2018 you went on a video and at the time I was advising a company called Skycoin, I was advising a regulation, and I held up one of their products and said, this is great, it works. Well, it did work because I had it in my house, you could plug it in. And it worked. They said, well, it didn't work. And I said, well, it did. And they said, well, we begged to differ, so we want to charge you with that anyway. I said, absolutely not. I said, we're ending this now. So my lawyers said to me at the end, I took advice from another lawyer in the UK and he said, chris, you're not American. This crime that they're trying to charge you with, it's only applicable under the law. The US citizens and US persons, you are neither one of those. You have never lived in the U.S. you aren't a U.S. person. You don't have a green card, you definitely don't have a US passport, just forget it. So I was like, okay. Still didn't feel very good about it.

[Jack Lawrence]

His feelings would be right, because unbeknownst to Chris, the US had decided to proceed with actions against him. And that meant a grand jury going on thousands of miles away from where he was.

[Christopher Ems]

January 2022, I went from Dubai to Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia was holding a conference on technology. Again, another conference. It's a man of many conferences. And so I thought, well, that's interesting. It's only an hour flight from Dubai to Riyadh. I'll jump on the plane and I'll go and see what this is all about. Went there, pretty mundane conference, interesting. A lot of big tech companies there, but really got nothing done. Met a few mates there. End of that. Get to the airport on the way back and I'm ready. I can't wait. I'm flying back to Dubai. I've got a good lunch with some mates, and I think that's going to be great. Get to the airport nice and early. Do the usual thing. Put your bag in, the check in, go to the passport control as you do in any airport. And the woman sat there, she's looking at my passport and my passport's a bit battered. Like, you know, most people who travel a lot, their passports are never in. And so it didn't really phase me at the beginning. She's looking at it and eventually a couple of guys come over and say, hey, can you come this way? And I'm like, okay, what's this? And the guy just says to me, you know, America, Interpol, red, very bad. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, okay, well, this shit's got real.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast powers. The world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jack Lawrence]

Do you like being educated on things that entertain but don't matter? Well, then you need to be listening to the Podcast with Knox and Jamie. Every Wednesday, we put together an episode dedicated to delightful idiocy to give your brain a break from all the serious and important stuff.

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

Whether we're deep diving a classic movie, dissecting the true meanings behind the newest slang, or dunking on our own listeners for their bad takes or cringy stories, we always approach our topics with humor and just a little bit of side eye. And we end every episode with recommendations on all the best new movies, books, TV shows or music.

[Jack Lawrence]

To find out more, just search up the Podcast with Knox and Jamie wherever you listen to podcasts and prepare to make Wednesday your new favorite day of the week

[Acast Announcer]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Pace Case]

Acast.com what does it mean to live a rich life? It means brave first leaps, tearful goodbyes, and everything in between. With over 100 years experience navigating the ups and downs of the market and of life, your Edward Jones financial advisor will be there to help you move ahead with confidence. Because with all you've done to find your rich, we'll do all we can to help you keep enjoying it. Edward Jones Member, SIPC.

[Jack Lawrence]

Real it got indeed as Chris is flanked by two officers who now escort him down to the airport police station and holding cells, which is in the basement of the airport. Chris, not yet arrested at this stage, in fact says that officers seemingly didn't quite know what to do with him.

[Christopher Ems]

They didn't cuff me, so I'm sat there with these police officers probably two or three hours. You know, I'd given up smoking, but I tell you what, then I'd took it back up again. So policeman's offer me cigarettes. I have a smoke. Come on, just smoke with me. We'll figure this one out. So basically what happened is there's an Interpol red notice that the US specifically put on me when they realized it was in Saudi. Therefore they'd be able to put some pressure, or at least they thought they could. So they put the interval red notice on me. Eventually. I'm letting you.

[Jack Lawrence]

How did they know you were there?

[Christopher Ems]

That's the question, isn't it? So the way, I mean, there's loads of ways that we can sort of speculate, but probably because when you travel, certain most countries will share passenger data information with the United States. It's pinged on some database there. And so if you notice, they, while I'm in Saudi, they go to the grand jury, they wait until I'm in Saudi, then they go to the grand jury. So they thought, right, we can get him now, let's bring charges.

[Jack Lawrence]

Things escalate as Chris has his photo and fingerprints taken, which really only means one thing. In most countries, you are officially under arrested. He's then led into a holding cell with about 30 other detainees. And he says instead of being harassed or facing any sort of intimidation by the other inmates, he in fact finds nothing but kindness and advice.

[Christopher Ems]

You know, I met a lot of guys in there. One guy from Egypt, been stuck in there for nine years waiting for his government to come and pick him up on an Interpol red notice. But they don't, they're not bothered, so they won't do it. So it's awful, but you see like how kind and lovely these people are. You know, they gave me something to eat and they said, look, next stage they'll take you to the interrogation. In the interrogations, make sure that you reject the extradition because they will try and convince you because it's less work for them to accept it. At which point they'll put you straight on a plane to the US and bye bye. I get put in leg irons and in cuffs and this is the airport, right? So they then lead you out of the terminal of the airport into a police car. The people are looking at you, so you sort of let out, you can barely walk. And you get put in the, in Saudi, basically you're put in the boot or the trunk for American people of a police car, right? And you've got to try and hold on. The guy's driving like a maniac at that point. When I'm in there, I'm there, I'm burning up, sweating all over. I was wearing a shirt and trousers because I was, you know, going to a lunch meeting in Dubai. We get to the, what they call the interrogation. So you get led into a big room, no water, and there's probably now about a hundred guys in this one room. I think it's the only time in my entire prison journey in Saudi where I actually did feel a bit threatened because you're in a room with mixed category prisoners. People have just been picked up and they're basically waiting to be read their rights. That's basically what happened. So eventually I'm sat there, I've got no watch, I've got no. They take everything from me. I've got no phone. So I've got no idea what time it is and how long I'm in here. But I see the sun starting to go down. So I think I've been in here for at least a few hours. No water. And I'm starting to. It's boiling hot in this room. I get led eventually into a room with these two gentlemen wearing traditional sort of Saudi dress. So what they call fod, which is the big white gown that Saudi men wear. And they say, Mr. Ems, we are responding to a red interval red notice from the FBI. We will read you what we can here. And they explain it's indictment based on the same charges. Virgil, violation of iipa. They said, are you guilty? I said, no. They said, shall we send you to America now or do you reject extradition? I said, I reject extradition. And they said, okay. The Process now is we will decide if this is a crime. And I said, well, how long is that going to take? And they said, be prepared to be here for a very long time. Mr.

[Jack Lawrence]

Thankfully, the Saudi prosecutor decides that Chris, although wanted by the FBI and having an Interpol Red notice against him, does not appear to be any sort of threat to the public and would grant him bail. His passport is confiscated and he's taken back to the prison where luckily, he would meet a kind guard who makes sure he's out before the office closes for the weekend.

[Christopher Ems]

So I get back to the prison, then the prisoners speak to the guard and, you know, they translate for me because my Arabic's terrible. And they say, look, he's saying that they're going to try and get it, get you out again. This was a time where I encountered, this is the only time, actually, I encountered a very, very friendly and kind prison guard. He went to me, he was undoing my shackles at the airport, and he said, so I'm speaking a little bit of Arabic, he's speaking English, and he basically says to me, you're British. What are you doing in here? He's like, this is not, this is not the usual people that we pick up and, you know, just the, the region, right? So he goes away and he gets the prosecutor's letter. He manages to get it before they close. They let me out. They say, you know, see you later. And I literally get on my phone, I book the nearest hotel possible. I get to the hotel and I start calling. So I'm like, I need a lawyer. I haven't got a lawyer in Saudi. So I reach out to a lady called Radha Sterling, who was amazing. So Radha is essentially someone that helps people that have been detained unjustly. She called me out in five minutes. She goes, no worries, I've got it. I'll get you a lawyer. We'll get this together. We need to do a PR campaign straight away. We need to show how wrong this is, et cetera, et cetera. So I got the lawyer. The lawyer flew down the next day. We went straight to the public prosecution, where I had to report the next day in the center of Riyadh. And, and they said, okay, he's got the information.

[Jack Lawrence]

Wait and wait he does for four months without any word of what's going on. The next biggest issue Chris would face is money.

[Christopher Ems]

The US then published that very interesting FBI wanted poster. Now that post is very interesting because they knew exactly where I was because they detained me. The Saudis had told them where I was. And then the second thing they did is they issued a block on all of my bank accounts. So basically what I was doing is obviously I was trying to save as much money as possible. I was staying in the cheapest hotels you can imagine. And a cheap hotel in Saudi is. It's not very nice. I went to the ATM to withdraw some more cash to pay for the hotel. Obviously, it's a cheap hotel. They take cash only. And my cards don't work.

[Jack Lawrence]

Because you're not even an American citizen. How are they the right to do that?

[Christopher Ems]

It's crazy. And, Jack, until to this day, I do not have, nor can I open a bank account in any other country that is in any way affiliated with the United States.

[Jack Lawrence]

A British citizen with absolutely no ties to the US at all has all of his bank accounts frozen. Without warning, he calls the bank and he's just told, we're very sorry, but we're unable to help you. After a while, Chris eventually gets himself a new lawyer, Dr. Abdullah, who knows this system well and how to play the situation, and he arranges a meeting.

[Christopher Ems]

So what happened is he was like, look, Chris, I'll go to Riyadh and I will meet with the head of Interpol in Riyadh and I will explain and I'll deal with the prosecution. Anyway, after three or four attempts, he managed to get somewhere. So basically what had happened is the Saudis had requested an evidence pact from the United States. So when a country requests extradition, it has a certain amount of time, legally, when it's supposed to follow up with the evidence to the extradition, which is then reviewed by a judge. And then a judge in that country will make the decision as to whether to extradite that person. They sent no evidence for however long. I was there seven months.

[Jack Lawrence]

Eventually, Dr. Abdullah, Chris's lawyer, calls him and says, we're good to get you out of here, but first we need to go down to immigration. You've got a fine to pay for overstaying your visa.

[Christopher Ems]

Like $8,000. I mean, it wasn't a small fine. We go there and then I get arrested again. And this time it wasn't very nice. So at this point, I'd moved actually down to Jeddah because that's where my lawyers were based, which is another city, and it was by the beach. So I just thought, you know, Riyadh is hot in the middle. So I just thought, you know, I'm gonna go there. So anyway, I get arrested. I basically get put in the drunk tank with no water. For. For around eight hours. And that was really horrible. Like, that was. There's no bed. I literally had to take my shoes off and use them as a pillow. Then I got thrown outside in the sort of baking evening heat of Jeddah with no water again. Eventually I get so fed up I'm about to pass out and knock on the door. God takes me. He says, look, I can either put you in a holding cell there, or I can put you in with these really bad people. I said, put me in with the really bad people, please put me in. And they were nothing but lovely. And that's when I. You know, I don't have any evidence to back this, but I surmised that that was the last tactic that the US were going to try and use there. Just send me to America. You know, Saudi, I think, is making massive strides in terms of changing a lot of things. But it's true, if you read anything, the Saudi police force is notoriously corrupt. I wouldn't think it was very difficult for the, the U.S. consulate or FBI in the U.S. to bribe them to do certain things.

[Jack Lawrence]

Although a judge had dismissed this case against Chris and he was free to go, much like in the story of Chad Hauer, for some reason, the local police were refusing to drop the Warrant.

[Christopher Ems]

My lawyer, Dr. Abdullah, he had to go there and go, this is ridiculous. He had to go to the judge and say, order them to do this. And he said, well, they're not doing it. Then he had to go to the police and go, you can't do this. Here's the dismissal of the case. Then I. And then I was taken back to the court again, this interrogation thing. I was kept there all day. And then eventually they just, they put me back in the van, sent me back, said, oh, we're gonna have to come back tomorrow. I get there and they say, yeah, you're free. Off you go. So anyway, I'm like, great, okay, I'm free to go. Now where do I go?

[Jack Lawrence]

So, as we know, Chris is a British citizen, so you might be wondering why hasn't he been talking with the British Embassy to get help in order to sort all this out? Well, he had.

[Christopher Ems]

They were next to useless. I would call them. They go, we're following up. My MP in the UK was, was very vocal about it. He was getting absolutely nothing back from the Foreign Office. So essentially they just left me stranded here. I mean, they had no desire to help. So I was sort of like, well, I'm not going to go to the uk and fortunately, I'd fought on my feet while I was out. So what I did is I thought, well, you know, I can go to Russia. And this was before even the current conflict started. I thought, you know, this is a place if I'm going to be safer anywhere, it's going to be here. And, you know, I was lucky, you know, living in Dubai and things. You know, I knew Russian people. I didn't consider Russian people to be devils with horns. So I set up a Russian company, actually applied for a Russian visa. That took a few months. So I was all ready to go. And I'd also written letters already to the Ministry of Foreign affairs who explained my situation. And they'd written back to me and said, Look, Mr. Ems, we've reviewed this. If you want to come here, we're not going to have any problem. And when you get here, we feel that you have the right to apply for asylum. Then the question was, how do I get to Russia without transiting through? There's no direct flights from Riyadh to Moscow, right? So I'm like, oh, how am I going to do this?

[Jack Lawrence]

With no direct flights to Russia, Chris would likely have to do a connecting flight from another country. The issue. Well, of course, as soon as he lands in another country. Yet again, the saga continues with the Interpol. Red Note is being flagged. Arrest, detention, and again, the possibility of extradition to the United States. So how does one get from Saudi to Russia without stopping?

[Christopher Ems]

Well, the only way out is to fly private, right? Which is an opulent expense. But being in crypto, I'm very fortunate that I've got a very. A few quite wealthy mates. I found this jet. The prices were starting at, like, half a million dollars. I was like, no way. So basically, I had to start this game where I'd ring up loads of different private jet brokers and start playing them off one another. And I book one here and then cancel one here. So I just try and confuse them. And eventually I managed to get, like, a really good price, right? And I was like, book it. My mate said, can I borrow this? And I'll, you know, I'll pay you back over time. He's like, yeah, mate, of course. He's like, you need it. If anyone, if I ever needed to help someone out, now, this is where I'm going to help you. He sent me the money, booked it went to Riyadh, and even at the airport, we didn't know whether the travel ban had been lifted, right? So that money could have gone right down the drain, went to the Private air terminal. Got through, paid the visa fine of $8,000 or whatever. So I got to the. Obviously fine, private. If anyone do it, it's probably the last time, the first and last time I'll ever have that experience in my life. But it's very nice. You go straight through the, you know, like, airport security, straight onto the Runway. So the officer's looking, and he goes and takes a picture of my password. I think, oh, here we go again. And then he stamps my password and he goes, thank you for visiting Saudi Arabia, Mr. Rams. You're welcome anytime. And I said, thank you very much. I won't be back. These two Turkish pilots have flown down from Istanbul to pick me up. You know, it's not like what you can imagine, a private jet. It's not like a Gulfstream knife. It's a real old sort of rickety little jet. And I get on the plane, and just before taking off, they go, Ms. Jefferson, please, just call me Chris. They say, chris, just, you know, we're not allowed to do it. But you probably haven't had a beer, have you, in, like, eight months. I said, no, nothing. They said, we brought an entire bar with us. So we fly. We fly in the air, and these guys come out, Jack Daniels, vodkas, beers, every. I just have my first beer in eight months.

[Jack Lawrence]

So Christopher Emes is finally a free man, still wanted, but free and on his way to Dagestan in Russia.

[Christopher Ems]

Plane opens. I'm greeted by about six Russian immigration officials and a. And a guy, an older guy, is insane clothes. And he goes, oh, Mr. Ems. And so I'd already arranged with Russia today that was going to go on and talk about my story the next day, go through. And he's like, well, oh, why are you here? And I said, look, I'm here to speak on. On Russian television, and I'm moving here due to, you know, some issues I have with America. And he goes, okay, cool. Anyway, we get to the immigration. He waves me through, tells the guy, just stamp that. And he goes, welcome home. And that was it.

[Jack Lawrence]

Chris has nothing but nice things to say about Russia and its people who he says have all been extremely welcoming and quite. Now, my first thoughts about a man wanted by America arriving in Russia is that maybe he might have got a knock on the door from the infamous kgb. But he says, this has never happened.

[Christopher Ems]

So, honestly, that was. I think that was my biggest surprise, right, was I think that would be something you'd expect, right, to happen, but never. Nothing like that ever, ever happened. And I think to be honest, it was because I'd written to the right people. And also, to be honest, I'd filled out all the asylum paperwork, right? So they were fully aware of my case. The asylum process is the same, I think, in Australia and the UK as it is here. You're basically interviewed by someone and then your case is reviewed and it's all done really under international law, under the UN Charter for Refugees or whatever it is.

[Jack Lawrence]

Since our interview, Chris has been granted asylum in Russia and has no plans on leaving anytime soon. His family all still live back in the uk and although he says, of course, it would be lovely to go and visit them, he says that due to the extremely lax extradition treaty between the US and the uk, he has no doubt that he would be immediately sent to the United States to face these charges. And as for if he thinks the US is still keeping tabs on him.

[Christopher Ems]

So, yeah, I mean, if the US So wished to snoop on me here, I shouldn't really say that. But, you know, please go ahead because, you know, I'm not coming back anytime soon. I'm not going to go anywhere you can get me. And to be honest, you, I'll spend now the rest of my life fighting the injustices that you inflict on other people so that you can't do it anymore.

[Jack Lawrence]

This is the story of Christopher Ems, a man who says the charges against him are completely bogus. However, I recently came across a man who was certainly not innocent of his crimes.

[Christopher Ems]

They eventually came back not guilty. Not guilty. Not guilty. Guilty of one count. That was good enough for the judge and he could have handed out life, but he didn't. 15 years. So 10 years in prison. I got a little bit more for

[Jack Lawrence]

the helicopter crimes that would see him facing the death penalty by firing squad until a daring escape would see him wanted to get out from the higher cell.

[Christopher Ems]

This thing had to poke into the night sky. And then I dropped the rope over it and slide down because I had to get over an awning just below us. I couldn't even put a toe on that. It would have crumbled away and alerted the loathsome trustees who slept in the second best cell in the building underneath.

[Jack Lawrence]

Next time unwanted I'm a wanderer of

[Acast Announcer]

the soul before the end I plan to behold But I know I'll lose myself along the way what's gone is gone what's past is past Let me leave what belongs in the past

[Jack Lawrence]

Foreign.

[Acast Announcer]

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[Christopher Ems]

you can't run a business.

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Like it's just one bombshell after another. You know, you're like, I what? What?

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