What I Survived — "North Korean Crypto Scam? P2" (March 31, 2026)

Podcast: What I Survived
Host: Jack Laurence
Guest: Christopher Ems

Episode Overview

In this gripping continuation, host Jack Laurence delves deep into the extraordinary ordeal of Christopher Ems, a young British crypto advisor caught in an international legal trap following his well-documented, but ill-fated, trip to North Korea for a cryptocurrency conference. The episode follows Chris through North Korea, the curious US indictment, his sudden arrest in Saudi Arabia, and eventual flight to asylum in Russia. Alongside first-hand accounts of arrest, incarceration, and bureaucratic limbo, the episode exposes the Kafkaesque reality of international law and the collateral damage inflicted by overreaching state power.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The North Korea Crypto Conference: Far From Sinister

• A Bizarre, Yet Innocuous Event
  • Christopher describes the conference as "incredibly poorly organized" ([06:43])
  • Talks centered on generic, copy-pasted blockchain topics taken straight from Google.
  • "It's like if you went on Google and typed in 'what is blockchain' and just did a copy paste." – Christopher Ems ([06:56])
• No Valuable Secrets Exchanged
  • The attendees were an uninterested, seemingly bused-in audience.
  • "Anything we said, even the stuff they've quoted in the indictment against me, it's all public knowledge." – Christopher Ems ([10:04])
• Conference "Mal Suits" Misrepresented
  • Wearing North Korean-style suits was meant as a joke, not a gesture of officialdom ([10:45]).

2. The US Indictment and the Aftermath

• Sudden Realization of Legal Trouble
  • Chris hears of Virgil Griffith’s arrest two years later: "I saw from that indictment, I had a very strong suspicion that I was one of the people named as one of the co-conspirators." – Christopher Ems ([12:00])
• Initial Legal Advice: Don’t Worry
  • As a non-US citizen, Chris’s lawyer believes the charges have no teeth, but—
  • "Sleep well. So I was like, okay, fine. Went on with my life as you would..." – Christopher Ems ([12:50])
• Virgil’s Downfall: Naivety vs. Intention
  • Virgil walks into the US Embassy, gives up his phone, talks without a lawyer.
  • "He’s clearly someone that isn’t on the same wavelength as you and I... At the same time, caused a massive mess..." – Christopher Ems ([13:22])
• On the Perils of Plea Bargains
  • "The prosecution will usually come to me and say, look, you say you're guilty, and we'll make sure you do, say 10 years. But if you decide to go to trial and you lose, you could be looking at 30 years or a life sentence." – Jack Laurence ([15:35])

3. Proffer Sessions and Legal Limbo

• The Attempt to Cooperate
  • Chris, through a former prosecutor, initiates 20+ hours of "proffer sessions" with the US government.
  • "We’ll give you a deal... testify at Virgil's trial. We also want you to plead guilty for wire fraud." – Christopher Ems ([16:39])
  • Chris refuses to plead guilty to something unrelated, feeling railroaded.
  • Advised again: "You have never lived in the US... just forget it." ([18:55])

4. The Interpol Red Notice and Saudi Ordeal

• Sudden Detention in Saudi Arabia
  • On a routine business trip, Chris is flagged at the airport: "America, Interpol, red, very bad. And I'm like, okay. Well, this shit's got real." – Christopher Ems ([19:20])
• Arrest and Prison Life
  • Held in a cell with 30 others, he receives unexpected camaraderie.
  • "You see how kind and lovely these people are. They gave me something to eat." – Christopher Ems ([23:37])
• Saudi Legal Process and ‘Justice’
  • Interrogation: "Shall we send you to America now or do you reject extradition? I said, I reject extradition." ([25:53])
  • Warned: "Be prepared to be here for a very long time." ([26:02])
• Temporary Relief & Ongoing Uncertainty
  • Released on bail, but with passport confiscated and bank accounts frozen.
  • "I do not have, nor can I open a bank account in any other country that is in any way affiliated with the United States." ([28:43])

5. Diplomatic Dead Ends and Final Escape

• Unresponsive British Embassy
  • The UK Foreign Office offers no assistance.: "They were next to useless... So essentially, they just left me stranded here." – Christopher Ems ([32:23])
• Desperate Measures: Private Jet Escape
  • Only way out: a private jet directly to Russia, funded by a friend ([33:59])
  • "Even at the airport, we didn't know whether the travel ban had been lifted... That money could have gone right down the drain." ([34:33])
• First Taste of Freedom
  • Upon landing in Russia: "He waves me through, tells the guy, just stamp that. And he goes, welcome home. And that was it." – Christopher Ems ([36:41])

6. Life in Russia & Ongoing Resolve

• No Harassment from Russian Authorities
  • No KGB visits, straightforward asylum process ([37:02])
• Reflections on Justice and Extradition
  • "I'll spend now the rest of my life fighting the injustices that you inflict on other people." – Christopher Ems ([37:57])
• Can’t Return to the UK
  • Fears immediate extradition if stepping foot in the UK due to US-UK treaties ([37:40])
• Resilient Tone and Ongoing Battle
  • Chris remains defiant, promising to use his experience to help others.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the Conference’s Substance:

  • "They bring in these people. None of these people look remotely interested in what we're talking about... All we're doing is we've got these pieces of paper, they don't make any sense, and we're reading along this absolute garbage"
    — Christopher Ems ([07:16])

• On the US Legal System:

  • "There's so many people that I believe to be innocent that have basically been naive when they've gone into an interrogation with law enforcement, not realizing that they're not your friend and that they're targeted just to incarcerate you and get a prosecution."
    — Christopher Ems ([13:22])

• On Prisoners’ Kindness:

  • "You see like how kind and lovely these people are. You know, they gave me something to eat and they said, look, next stage they'll take you to the interrogation."
    — Christopher Ems ([23:37])

• On Escaping Saudi Arabia:

  • "The only way out is to fly private, right? Which is an opulent expense. But being in crypto, I'm very fortunate that I've got a very—a few quite wealthy mates."
    — Christopher Ems ([33:59])

• Arrival in Russia:

  • "He goes, welcome home. And that was it."
    — Christopher Ems ([36:41])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:30] — Chris describes DMZ visit and North Korea’s optimism post-Trump summit
• [06:43] — Arriving at the conference: farce and confusion
• [09:29] — Addressing the indictment’s quoted statements
• [12:00] — Revelation of FBI interest after Virgil’s arrest
• [13:22] — Virgil’s naivety and the dangers of unprotected US interrogations
• [16:39] — Extensive proffer session, US offer to plead guilty to wire fraud
• [19:20] — The Saudi airport arrest, Interpol red notice explained
• [23:37] — Prison camaraderie and extradition advice from other detainees
• [28:43] — US freezes all his international banking
• [32:23] — The unhelpful British Embassy and decision to head to Russia
• [33:59] — Private jet escape plan, funded by a crypto friend
• [36:41] — “Welcome home” in Russia, start of new chapter
• [37:57] — Chris’s vow to fight injustice

Conclusion

Through raw, detailed storytelling, the episode paints a chilling picture of modern extraterritorial justice and the human cost of bureaucratic overreach. Chris Ems’s ordeal—beginning with a misadventure at a dull crypto conference and spiraling into years of arrest, legal uncertainty, and exile—serves as a cautionary tale about international law, due process, and the often tragic collision between technology, travel, and geopolitics.

Chris’s closing resolve:
"I'll spend now the rest of my life fighting the injustices that you inflict on other people so that you can't do it anymore." ([37:57])