Running from Spies MI5 - P2

Summary

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What I Survived – “Running from Spies MI5 – P2”

Podcast: What I Survived
Host: Jack Laurence
Guest(s): Annie Machon (and references to David Shayler)
Date: March 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode concludes the riveting two-part story of Annie Machon and David Shayler, former MI5 officers turned whistleblowers, who exposed illegal activities and operational failures within Britain’s domestic security service. Host Jack Laurence takes listeners deep into their experience: the information that compelled them to turn against their former employer, the fraught process of leaking secrets, their harrowing life on the run across Europe, and ultimately the personal and societal aftermath of their decision. The episode also touches on broader themes of the cost and impact of whistleblowing, psychological toll, and the state of government transparency—linking their story to those of other high-profile figures like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Whistleblowing and Government Accountability (03:02 – 05:53)

• Opening with a reference to Julian Assange and other whistleblowers, Jack frames the broader context: the enormous personal risks taken to expose malpractice within powerful institutions.
• “Julian Assange started his campaign of whistleblowing almost a decade after Annie Machon and David Shayler would go out against their own employer, MI5, a decision which would see them wanted and on the run.” (05:49, Jack Laurence)

2. Why Annie Machon and David Shayler Blew the Whistle (06:17 – 11:31)

• Motivated by a desire for improvement, not revenge: Annie underscores the crucial distinction between protecting national security and institutional cover-ups.
• “A lot of very good people go and work there for the best of intentions... It's just when things go wrong... if there is blanket secrecy, that can cover up mistakes so they don't learn and they don't get better... That bit is the key bit for me.” (06:56, Annie Machon)
• Cases witnessed:
  • Illegal wiretap of journalist Victoria Brittain without court order.
  • Wrongful conviction and jailing of two Palestinian students for the 1994 Israeli embassy bombing—MI5 withheld key evidence that could have overturned their convictions.
• Details the car bomb event itself, the police investigation, and the trial’s flawed outcome.

3. The Gaddafi Assassination Plot: Breaking Point (11:52 – 15:11)

• The failed MI6-backed plot to assassinate Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, green-lighted clandestinely and executed illegally.
• Annie recounts how the plot resulted in innocent casualties and was never properly investigated.
• “...to quote an American phrase, a goddamn cluster fuck. Legalities and results. So that was actually the case that really pushed Dave over the edge.” (15:11, Annie Machon)
• After internal complaints were ignored, the pair privately resolved to expose the truth.

4. Prepping for the Leak and Deciding to Flee (15:55 – 23:39)

• The couple’s extreme caution—holding conversations only in public, never at home, and sustaining “appearances” at work as they built a relationship with journalists.
• Annie recalls living in a constant state of fear, unable to confide in family or friends, watching for signs of surveillance or attempted entrapment.
  • “So I just went out, got another job, pay the rent, all that sort of shit… feeling pretty stressed and not being able to talk to any of our family or friends, honestly, which is horrible.” (18:43, Annie Machon)
• They observed others resigning from MI5 for ethical reasons—there was a “brain drain” of principled staff.
  • “A lot of our peer group had those [ethical concerns] and wanted to leave, which is actually quite sad, because I think these organizations need people with strong ethical framework…” (19:40, Annie Machon)

5. Going on the Run: Crossing Europe, Being Hunted (21:29 – 30:25)

• The leak’s release forces the couple to flee London with little notice—a tense, cinematic escape involving public payphones, taxis, fake names, cash only, and disguises.
  • “...it was a month of literally being on the run and we knew we were being hunted by the Secret Police, Special Branch and also by MI5. So it was a very surreal experience as gamekeeper turned poacher, I suppose is the phrase.” (22:13, Annie Machon)
• Relies on pre-digital “tradecraft”—checking into hotels without ID, altering appearance, and only using brief, untraceable cash withdrawals far from their next destinations.
  • “No absolutely no ATMs, all that sort of stuff? No, it was, it was cash only....use fake names and all that sort of stuff. I mean now it’d be exponentially harder…” (24:25, Annie Machon)
• Details close calls, such as nearly being apprehended after a journalist interview.
  • “News Night…came over…rendezvous with them in Amsterdam, posh hotel. And the guy who did the interview, I think, of course ratted us out...from what I heard afterwards, they got within an hour of us. So…‘we’ve got to go, go now.’” (28:45, Annie Machon)

6. The Role of Media and the Unexpected Impact of History (31:11 – 32:21)

• Annie and David tried to trigger public outcry and reform by making their revelations front-page news, but the plan was disrupted by the global media focus on the sudden death of Princess Diana.
  • “So we were just. Yeah, we just found ourselves lost. So we lost that media support in terms of pushing for an inquiry, pushing for a reform of what the spies were doing. That was our game plan.” (31:34, Annie Machon)

7. Aftermath: Arrests, Trials, Prison, and Fallout (32:21 – 37:09)

• Annie voluntarily returns to the UK and is arrested, held on bail for six months as leverage against David.
  • “So I got arrested, I got threatened. I was interviewed for hours, but didn't say anything and was held on police bail for six months…they basically held me over his head…‘if you keep talking, we're going to do your girlfriend...’” (32:36, Annie Machon)
• David’s extradition, harsh prison conditions, a “kangaroo court” trial with a gagged defence, and eventual imprisonment for whistleblowing.
  • “His sentence was only six months and the trial was such a kangaroo court…it was so surreal…The only time either of us had a chance to say anything about why we’d done what we’d done was after he was convicted...” (34:20, Annie Machon)
• Annie’s chilling description of being in court surrounded by MI5, feeling on display and isolated.

8. The Psychological Toll and Life After Whistleblowing (37:09 – 39:24)

• Living for years as targets, under paranoia and self-censorship, both in their private and activism lives.
  • “Of course it does, yes. And after David had paid his debt to society, he was a free man in 2003. I mean, both of us came out of what had been seven years of this whistleblowing, bloody case. It’s sort of like you come up for air, suddenly you surface and you thought, well, what now?” (37:19, Annie Machon)
• Their subsequent career shifts, with Annie finding a new path in the hacktivist movement and privacy advocacy.

9. Reflections on Success, Limitations, and Ongoing Risk (39:24 – 44:02)

• Annie is frank about the limited immediate impact of their actions, due to timing and the resilience of institutional secrecy.
  • “No, I think it’s based on…Partly because of bad timing, partly because you’re in your late 20s and you know stuff and you think you can do stuff. Right. I mean, Edward Snowden was 29 when he went public as well.” (39:45, Annie Machon)
• Broader commentary on evolving whistleblower tactics (from mainstream media to Discord), the constant risks faced, and the enduring importance of principle over personality in such cases.
  • “If people on the inside come out and try and do something like that, they're doing it for a damn good reason and they need all the support they can get rather than believing the crap that's in the media...” (41:45, Annie Machon)
• Annie confesses the permanent sense of being surveilled, even years later.
  • “But I’m absolutely certain that my phone is compromised...I have no concept that I have privacy here now talking to you.” (43:15, Annie Machon)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the club-like environment inside MI5:
“It’s quite incestuous in that way…we kept getting invited to leaving parties from our friends within MFive who were all leaving for the same reasons, which is really weird.”
— Annie Machon (19:40)

On the MI6 plot to kill Gaddafi:
“So this guy was a walk-in to the Tunisian embassy in 1995…I have a cunning plan…And then a few weeks later…there had been an attack, it had gone wrong, innocent people had died, including innocent bystanders. And Gaddafi, of course, survived…”
— Annie Machon (13:11)

On being a target:
“We knew… we were High targets, high value targets. So it sounds crap to say that, you know, it’s almost like self aggrandizing because, you know, they were after us, but they really were. We caused such a huge amount of embarrassment.”
— Annie Machon (28:22)

On the psychological toll:
“Of course it does, yes… both of us came out of what had been seven years of this whistleblowing, bloody case. It’s sort of like you come up for air, suddenly you surface and you thought, well, what now?”
— Annie Machon (37:19)

On whistleblower motivations vs. media narrative:
“It’s not about the personality; it’s about the principles at stake. And that is what everyone should always remember. And if we don’t stand up for the principles…we will lose our basic freedoms.”
— Annie Machon (41:45)

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Timestamps for Key Moments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|----------------------------------------------| | 03:02 | Framing the whistleblower dilemma (Assange parallel) | | 06:17 | Annie on secrecy, errors, and the job inside MI5 | | 11:31 | The 1994 Israeli embassy bombing and wrongful conviction | | 13:11 | The illegal Gaddafi assassination plot | | 15:11 | “Goddamn cluster fuck” – deciding to leak | | 18:12 | The months spent undercover, prepping to flee | | 21:29 | The leak drops; last-minute escape | | 24:25 | How to evade tracking: tradecraft and runbags| | 28:22 | High value targets, close shaves with police | | 31:34 | Princess Diana’s death derailing media impact| | 32:36 | Annie’s arrest and leveraged bail | | 34:20 | David’s trial, prison, and lack of fair defense | | 37:19 | Psychological aftermath, “coming up for air” | | 39:45 | Did they achieve change? Annie’s honest assessment| | 41:45 | Principles over personality in whistleblowing | | 43:15 | “My phone is compromised.”– Lingering paranoia|

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Summary & Takeaways

• The episode tells the gripping, personal story of Annie Machon and David Shayler, once trusted MI5 operatives whose conscience led them to confront, and flee, the British security establishment.
• Listeners gain insight into what it takes—and what it costs—individuals who challenge secretive, powerful organizations: ethical courage, lifelong consequences, and unique forms of isolation.
• Despite the drama, the guests are clear-eyed about the limited impact of their revelations, but urge the importance of supporting whistleblowers and preserving the social principles they represent.
• The story is a stark reminder that the battle for accountability and human rights remains ongoing and deeply personal—and that secrecy, both official and self-imposed, shapes the aftermath of survival.

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For further reading, Annie’s book “The Primacy Mission: Achieving Ethical Data for Our Lives Online” is mentioned in the show notes.

Transcript

[Jack Lawrence]

Hello Legends. Before we get into the episode, just a quick heads up if you have completed Season one of what I Survived. Firstly, thank you for the incredible support for the show and all the lovely comments. I truly appreciate it. I'm madly working on season two, which will be out for you very soon. In the meantime though, I have just dropped listed as Season two in what I Survived a previous show that I created a couple of years ago called Wanted. The entire show is there for you to binge while you wait for season two of what I Survived Foreign.

[Acast Announcer]

Powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

if you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time. Listen up. This is Nikayla Matthews Akome, host of Side Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a Side Hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips and so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice. Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check out Side Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

Acast.com@vrbo we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support, so we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care Guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay, through the moments in between and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist. But we've got the peace of mind part covered.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend

[Annie or David Shaler]

this season on the Dream. Supplies are being provided by nurses who run out in the middle of the night and purchase diapers, but the hospital is still charging as if they still have these items. We are digging into every topic we've ever wanted to cover on this show. It's a spinning plate analogy. The second that you stop spinning those plates, that crashes. So you can never stop working The Dream Season 4 comes at you weekly starting Monday, January 20th,

[Acast Announcer]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

[Jack Lawrence]

When we think of whistleblowers who have risked their lives and their freedom in the pursuit of keeping those in power accountable for their actions, I think one name will stand at the forefront of most Australian born Julian Assange. We publish CIA reports all the time that are legitimate CIA reports. That doesn't mean the CIA is telling the truth. Who founded the now infamous WikiLeaks in 2006. He would gain worldwide attention in 2010 when WikiLeaks would publish a series of leaks from US army intelligence of footage from airstrikes conducted by US Apache helicopters in 2007 during the Iraq insurgency. These airstrikes would claim the lives of several people, including two journalists and and civilians. The crews can be heard laughing about some of the casualties.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Light them all up.

[Jack Lawrence]

Come on. Fire.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Shoot. God damn it, Kyle.

[Jack Lawrence]

Oh yeah, look at that.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Right through the windshield.

[Jack Lawrence]

Hey, I need to get the rat. The brass to drop rats.

[Annie or David Shaler]

I got a wounded girl.

[Jack Lawrence]

We didn't take the rest of my

[Annie or David Shaler]

fall for bringing their kids to a battle. That's right.

[Jack Lawrence]

In November of 2010, Sweden would issue an arrest warrant for Assange for questioning in an ongoing investigation. After losing his appeal against the warrant, he would breach bail and take refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London.

[Annie or David Shaler]

A security camera shows the rooms inside the Ecuadorian Embassy where the WikiLeaks founder languished under diplomatic protection and therefore immunity from arrest. Yahoo News reported that while Assange was

[Jack Lawrence]

holed up for his fifth year in Ecuador's London embassy in 2017, the CIA,

[Annie or David Shaler]

the CIA and the Trump administration debated plans to kidnap and even kill the exiled journalist.

[Jack Lawrence]

He would be granted asylum by Ecuador in 2012 under political grounds and fears of extradition to the United States. However, this was later revoked in 2019 and British police were invited into the embassy and he would be arrested.

[Annie or David Shaler]

That breaking news. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London London Police have arrested WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. Here you can see him being dragged out of the Ecuadorian Embassy by British police.

[Jack Lawrence]

He was convicted on breach of bail and sentenced to 50 weeks in prison since 2019 has been held in Britain's maximum security prison, Belmarsh, ever since. As the United States continues their efforts to have him extradited. Julian Assange started his campaign of whistleblowing almost a decade after Annie Macron and David Shaler would go out against their own employer, MI5, a decision which would see them wanted and on the run

[Annie or David Shaler]

because it had created such a big scandal. We knew a high value target.

[Jack Lawrence]

My name's Jack Lawrence. Welcome to Wanted.

[Acast Announcer]

I'm a wanderer of the soul before the end I plan to be whole But I know I lose myself along the way what's gone is gone what's past is past Let me leave what

[Jack Lawrence]

belongs in the past. So Annie and David had been privy to information from within MI5, information that concerned them, mistakes that had been made by the organisation, mistakes that had had catastrophic consequences. However, Annie says it was the mere fact that they were seemingly not willing to learn from these mistakes and things were essentially swept under the carpet, which didn't sit well with her and David. She does also point out that there were plenty of very successful missions for MI5.

[Annie or David Shaler]

I mean, there were other operations that were very successful. And that's again part of the weird bit, because you know the full story and then you see the little bit in the news, the national news, and you're sitting there thinking this is a good result, but it's just the tip of the iceberg. And that again goes back to the plate of glass that comes down between you and the real world. Psychologically very odd watching that as well. So I'm, you know, I'm not trying to just diss the intelligence agencies. A lot of very good people go and work there for the best of intentions and they do their best to try and protect the fellow citizens. It's just when things go wrong, they can go very badly wrong and if there is blanket secrecy, that can be, that can cover up mistakes so they don't learn and they don't get better in the work of protecting their fellow citizens. That bit is the key bit for me.

[Jack Lawrence]

David will be moved from his position at T branch, focusing on the movements and actions of Irish terrorism, and is sent to G9 branch which handled Middle Eastern terrorism. David would be the head of the Libyan desk. It would be while working here that he and Annie would be made aware and witness three key cases being handled by the International Terrorism Section. The first being an illegal wiretap of Guardian journalist Victoria Brittain for reasons far too long winded and complicated to go into here. But essentially the warrant that was granted in order to tap her phones was illegal and MI5 did not obtain a court order in which to do so. The entire operation was built on flawed intelligence and, and bad judgment. Even once MI5 management learnt of the issues, they would continue to violate the law. The second was a case of wrongful conviction against two Palestinian students based in London who were convicted of conspiracy to bomb the Israeli embassy in 1994.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast Powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

if you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time, listen up. This is Nikayla Matthews Akome, host of side Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a side hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips and so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I thought Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their side Hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check out side Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com so good, so good, so good.

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

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[Annie or David Shaler]

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[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

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[Jack Lawrence]

On July 26, 1994, on a sunny day in London, a smartly dressed woman said to be of Mediterranean appearance would drive a grey Audi through police checkpoints at Kensington Gardens, London's main diplomatic quarter. She would park the vehicle next to the Israeli Embassy. She was quickly picked up by security surveillance, and a policeman from the Diplomatic Protection Corps was sent to investigate. She would tell the officer she was visiting the flats next door, but was first going to buy some cigarettes down the high street. A few moments after she vanished from sight, the bomb exploded.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Mr. Minister, do you have just one comment at all on this London bombing? I haven't got many details, but I have the details. It was a car bomb and apparently one of our employees at the embassy warned the police, so happily nobody seems to be hurt.

[Jack Lawrence]

Witnesses would say they saw debris rise 100ft above the trees. Thirteen people were injured, but luckily no one was killed. A second bomb would go off five miles north, shortly after midnight in January of 1995, six Palestinians would be arrested. Only two would be convicted for conspiring to cause explosions and sentenced to 20 years in prison. According to Annie and David, MI5 possessed information that was never released to the defence, which they believe would have likely changed the verdict of the jury. The two men who have always maintained their innocence would end up serving 15 years each in prison. However, the final case, the one that broke the camel's back, so to speak, the one that made them resign, was a failed assassination attempt. You've spoken as well in the past about the Gaddafi. The failed assassination attempt is another situation that was involving the MI5. You say that someone can't remember the term you used, but an off the street person came in to suggest that they would like to get rid of Gaddafi, essentially.

[Annie or David Shaler]

So this guy was a walk in to the Tunisian embassy in 1995, I think it was, he was a senior Libyan military officer and he was, he ended up being codenamed Tunworth. And he went to the embassy because that's where you always find the MI6 officers, the James Bonds. So he just literally walked in and said, I have a cunning plan. And there were a few sort of international meetings across Europe and money was handed over and all the rest of it. And then David, who was the, he was the Libyan desk at that point. So he was running the team that was investigating any threats about Libya or from Libya at that time. And he was called over to MI6 for an in person briefing rather than on secure telephones by his counterpart there. And he was briefed about this operation that was going to go ahead and he thought, sounds a bit, you know, MI6 probably won't happen. They're always coming up with these crap brained James Bond type plots, most of them don't happen. But he still reported it up the line when he went back to MI5. And then a few weeks later there was a series of reports coming across his desk saying that actually there had been an attack, it had gone wrong, innocent people had died, including innocent bystanders. And Gaddafi, of course, survived to be assassinated another day, which was in 2011 in the full glare of international media. But back in 1996, this was seen as super secret because it's illegal to assassinate foreign heads of state. And it turned out that this operation was illegal under the terms of the Intelligence Securities Act 1994, where you have to get the sign off for otherwise illegal activities from the Foreign secretary if you're MI6.

[Jack Lawrence]

Though Gaddafi still described himself as a poor Bedouin and insisted on being interviewed in his tent. I asked him about stories that been an attempt to kill him.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Of course it is true.

[Jack Lawrence]

And it happened against me, of course. And Britain was behind this tidbit of assassination.

[Annie or David Shaler]

So every which way. This was, to quote an American phrase, a goddamn cluster fuck. Legalities and results. So that was actually the case that really pushed Dave over the edge. And we went through a number of discussions trying to work out how best we could deal with it. I mean, we'd raised our concerns on the inside and we're just told to follow orders. A number of our colleagues were leaving at the same time because they had ethical concerns too. And we decided to try and make a difference, which is why we went public and blew the whistle.

[Jack Lawrence]

So David decides this cannot go unchallenged and not only should they leave, but also he's going to leak what he knows to the press.

[Annie or David Shaler]

In fact, I think his first words were let's go out to dinner. Because he didn't want to talk in our flat just in case, because we, you know, in case we were bugged.

[Jack Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Annie or David Shaler]

So we went out. Yeah, went out to a random restaurant and had a conversation about this. And both of us were pretty disillusioned at that point after all the stuff we'd seen going on. Not just the good after clock was the straw that broke the camel's back. Yeah, it was a very hard discussion. I was particularly concerned about the implications for our family and our friends. And I was right to be with the fallout after with Jesus. And it took a while for the whole thing to build up anyway, because David had to start a conversation with a journalist and then there was a sort of very long courtship between the journalist and him because the journalist thought it might be an MI5 sting type story plant and David thought he might get shot. So that took a few months too, which of course ramped up the tension. But he kept me pretty much out of that because he wanted to protect me. So the less I knew, the less vulnerable I'd be.

[Jack Lawrence]

Actually, I was going to ask the question. I thought, no, it's a stupid question. But then you mentioned there that David was concerned that he could get shot. Did you genuinely fear for your lives, like with what you were doing?

[Annie or David Shaler]

Yes, at certain points we did and we were right to because there were certain instance where our lives were definitely at risk. It's ridiculous. I'm not saying, you know, MI5 or MI6 are out gunning for us, but there are other situations where people Wanted information.

[Jack Lawrence]

And I suppose MI5 and MI6 probably would have had, would have known if there was something going on against you, but it wouldn't have been any loss to them if anything happened to you guys.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Exactly. I mean, this is the ultimate irony, you know, if you're working on the inside and you're running an operation, no matter how tricky it is or how dangerous it is, often as the officer running the operation, you're the most protected person there. So you are very little at risk as soon as, of course, you step outside the organization.

[Jack Lawrence]

Leaving, however, was not a case of simply drop everything and run. It would take around eight months before David and Annie would leave the country. And in that time they spent their lives watching everything they did and everything they said, especially in the confines of their own home. Did you guys resign once? David had already built this relationship with a journalist who was like, okay, yep, great, let's run this story. And that's when you resigned. So you had to keep up sort of appearances while this was going on, this courtship was going on.

[Annie or David Shaler]

As far as I know, he had made early contact at that point, but beyond that I know nothing. So I just went out, got another job, pay the rent, all that sort of shit. And that's what he did too. And it took a while. He also put out a story that he. Well, it wasn't a story, it was true. He was writing a novel, spy type novel, just in case any sort of word had got out that he might be talking to interesting people. So, yeah, that's pretty much all I know from that period, apart from feeling pretty stressed and not being able to talk to any of our family or friends, honestly, which is horrible.

[Jack Lawrence]

So. And I'd imagine, as you said, while you're at home, once you've resigned and you're just at home going about your normal life. He said David, when he first announced, sort of suggested to you, he took you out of there house because of the concern around bugging. I'm assuming you were always probably very careful about what you spoke about, where you spoke about it, you know, and never within the home because just in case they, they, they did bug your house.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Totally, yes. So one, the interesting bit after we resigned was that, you know, we'd had a very social life within MI5. As I said, you know, it's quite incestuous in that way.

[Jack Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Annie or David Shaler]

People you can really hang out with. And so in that year, 10 months, I think between resignation and September 8th, between resignation, going on the run, we kept getting invited to leaving parties from our friends within MFive who were all leaving for the same reasons, which is really weird. And we'd sort of turn up and even the ones who weren't resigning, they would say, how did you get out? Who did you speak to? How did you get the next job? So it wasn't just us with the ethical concerns. A lot of our peer group had those and wanted to leave, which is actually quite sad, because I think these organizations need people with strong ethical framework,

[Jack Lawrence]

say, with some morals.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Yeah, Keep it on the right path in terms of the trust and living without the sense of privacy. That actually became quite excoriating even then. And I think my family, my mother and my father certainly knew something was up because I wouldn't talk about most things on the phone because I was worried about the communications. And there were certain indications as well that they might be onto us. Suddenly David's old boss, for example, was ringing him up, saying, hey, let's meet up, and things like that. So the hackles go up, you know, it's the animal instinct, isn't it?

[Jack Lawrence]

Eight months of back and forth and relationship building cemented. David and the journalist would break the story and it was time to leave.

[Annie or David Shaler]

I remember Dave coming home and we went out for dinner and he just basically said, this is going to break this weekend. So I think that was a Tuesday. And we went on the run on a Saturday, which was the 24th of July 1997. So what we thought would be a slower process suddenly accelerated massively, and he had to go into the newspaper and do all the debriefing and write the stories and all that sort of stuff in those days. So I was left with the happy task of trying to organize the exfiltration out of the uk, which I did. But it was tricky. There's a lot of running around London using, you know, red call boxes and taxis and things.

[Jack Lawrence]

Did you have a plan of where you were headed?

[Annie or David Shaler]

It was a tricky one because it was a huge bank holiday weekend and I think I got about the last two tickets out of London on a flight. We had to fly out on a very, very early morning flight to Amsterdam and David and I met in a crappy hotel near Heathrow that evening before I set about four alarm clocks to make sure we got the flight. I remember as well when we were sitting in the plane and the. The tyres left the tarmac, it was like, thank God we're out of the country. Now we just have to get through the, you know, security at the other end in Amsterdam. Welcome to Amsterdam. The Local time is approaching 5:45pm Keep your seat belt fastened and remain seated until the seat belt sign is switched off, doors are open and you are invited to disembark. Take all your personal belongs with you. Checking the seat pocket, underneath the seat and in the ocean. So we landed there and then we went on the run all the way around these strange little towns in the Netherlands and then we hightailed all the way down to the far southwest of France, then across France and into Spain, all the rest of it. So it was a month of literally being on the run and we knew we were being hunted by the Secret Police, Special Branch and also by my 5. So it was a very surreal experience as gamekeeper turned poacher, I suppose is the phrase.

[Jack Lawrence]

The Metropolitan Police's Special branch in the UK was a unit formed in 1883. It was tasked with combating the rising threat of Irish Republican terrorism. Over the years, this unit was tasked with many aspects of counter terrorism and undercover infiltrations into organised crime groups as well as trade unions. It would later become the executive arm of MI5 in dealing with espionage cases and of course tracking Annie and David. You worked in that organisation and you know the taxes that are used to find someone. So I suppose in a way that gives you an upper hand in knowing what to do and what not to do. So what was your main, you know, okay, we cannot do this, we cannot do that. You know, I'm assuming no credit cards,

[Annie or David Shaler]

no absolutely no ATMs, all that sort of stuff? No, it was, it was cash only. If we had to grab some money in a city, we would then leave that city and move as far as we could on some intercity train as quickly as we could so that they would miss us also. It sounds really crappy, but you know, simple disguise is like. I am known for wearing black, I've got blonde hair. All the rest of it I just put my hair, my hair up and wear beige and I could just. Here was much so. Yeah. And that was also the days when you could check into a hotel without having to give over your passport. Yeah, right. So you could use fake names and all that sort of stuff. I mean now it be exponentially harder unless you've got the skills of someone like Edward Snowden or beyond now it would be incredibly hard.

[Jack Lawrence]

Edward Snowden is now of course a household name up there with the likes of Julian Assange when it comes to well known whistleblowers breaking details on that

[Annie or David Shaler]

whistleblower who leaked top secret documents by the government surveillance of Americans Edward Snowden Latest on the international standoff over NSA leader Edward Snowden.

[Jack Lawrence]

What would you do about it?

[Annie or David Shaler]

I think he's a total traitor and I would deal with him harshly.

[Jack Lawrence]

He was born in June of 1983 in North Carolina to parents Lonnie and Elizabeth. His family was in fact full of employees of the federal government and in fact, his own grandfather was a senior official at the FBI and for many years, including being at the Pentagon on September 11th. A computer whiz, Edward would attend a job fair in 2006 focused on intelligence agencies and would be offered a position with the CIA. And so began his intelligence career. In 2007, he was stationed in Geneva with diplomatic cover. While there, he was widely considered the top technical cybersecurity expert, which saw him in fact, hand picked to support the president at the 2008 NATO summit in Romania. Edward would resign from the CIA in February of 2009 and would begin working for the computer company Dell. Dell manages computer systems for multiple government agencies, including the nsa. Snowden was assigned to an NSA airbase facility near Tokyo and instructed top officials on how to protect themselves from Chinese hackers. He maintained his job with Dell until 2013, when he would quit his job after he says he witnesses the Director of National Intelligence lying under oath to Congress.

[Acast Announcer]

What I wanted to see is if

[Annie or David Shaler]

you could give me a yes or no answer to the question, does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of of millions of Americans? No, sir.

[Jack Lawrence]

Around February or April of the same year, Edward began working with a journalist at the Guardian. And the first of the initial articles, based on the leaked documents that he supplied, was published on June 5. On the 23rd of the same month, Edward travelled to Russia from Tokyo, where he'd been when the articles were published, with a plan to continue on to Cuba. However, the US would cancel his passport in an attempt, he says, to make him look like a Russian spy. Edward would apply for asylum in over 20 countries, four of which would offer him permanent asylum. However, there were no direct flights to any of these countries from Moscow. And with the US pressuring countries along the flight path to detain him, he would decide to seek asylum in Russia. Edward Snowden would manage to avoid being arrested by authorities and made his way to a country with no extradition treaty with the United States. Annie and David, however, were running around Europe, countries where their former colleagues could most certainly follow them.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Even then. It was hard enough because we knew all the techniques and because it had created such a big scandal, we knew were High targets, high value targets. So it sounds crap to say that, you know, it's almost like self aggrandizing because, you know, they were after us, but they really were. We caused such a huge amount of embarrassment.

[Jack Lawrence]

Did you have any moments where you felt like you may get caught at any stage?

[Annie or David Shaler]

Yes. The first one being very early on, actually, because we, we went on the run on, I think, Saturday the 24th and David did his first big media interview on the Monday, it was News Night, which is a big BBC flagship news program, and they came over, I mean, rendezvous with them in Amsterdam, posh hotel. And the guy who did the interview, I think, of course ratted us out and said, this is where they are. So the next morning, very early, I was like, up, up, up, we've got to go, we've got to go, flap, flap, flap. And Dave was saying, oh, no, they won't find us quickly. And from what I heard afterwards, they got within an hour of us. So it's just like, we've got to go, we've got to go, go now, come sort of thing. And so living like that is really weird, especially with a recalcitrant boyfriend who thinks that you're just being paranoid.

[Jack Lawrence]

You know, obviously you're saying they were, they were after you, special branches after you. MI5 is after you, you know, your high value targets. So when you say they were there, they missed you by an hour. Do MI5 have the power of arrest? I mean, what they do, they just bundle you in a van like it's some sort of movie or something. I mean, how does that work?

[Annie or David Shaler]

MI5 does not officially have the power of arrest. They always have to work through police, local authorities, legally.

[Jack Lawrence]

Yeah, yeah.

[Annie or David Shaler]

It doesn't mean they always. Anyway. Yes. So they would have to liaise with the Dutch aivd, I think it's called now and then the AOD would have to talk to the police in Dutchland, as I call it. But I don't know, there were various other incidents as well where they, I think they almost caught up with us. But thankfully I have a very finely attuned paranoia antennae.

[Jack Lawrence]

I mean, I'm sure you're just looking at any out of place van, car, person constantly looking over your shoulder. And so you can't trust anyone at all.

[Annie or David Shaler]

No. And also just the idea that, you know, any, if you book anything online or via phone or whatever in those days, that hotel room or restaurant, whatever could be bugged, I mean, things like that, or even your handbag, so you want to meet and talk with someone on a park bench. And this is Old Moscow rules from John McCurry. And there could be, you know, these long distance transmitters that can pick up what you're saying, so it actually can drive you daft. And when I'm saying this, it probably makes you. Makes me sound like I'm mad, but I'm really not. I mean, this is old 90s text. I mean, it was just more work intensive, but, yeah, it's much worse now.

[Jack Lawrence]

So Annie and David had a plan. The plan was to create enough of a media storm to create change, to make people ask questions and want answers. The problem was they needed the media in which to do this. Little did they know they were just days away from a news story breaking that would not only take over the British media, but the world media.

[Annie or David Shaler]

What we had planned was the idea that we'd create a bit of a scandal and therefore there would be a certain reaction which would be, let's gag David Shaler and let's gag the media to make sure further revelations can't come out. And we thought that would be good. And that's what happened in the first week, which was great, because then, of course, the national media comes out saying, you can't gag us with the free British press. And then Princess Diana died a week after we went public in that horrible accident in Paris which wiped out any other news story. So we were just. Yeah, we just found ourselves lost. So we lost that media support in terms of pushing for an inquiry, pushing for a reform of what the spies were doing. That was our game plan. And so we found ourselves sort of lost in France.

[Jack Lawrence]

Now Annie and David faced the decision of what to do next. And it would be Annie who would initially head home first, knowing full well she would be arrested. In fact, she would hand herself in and she could also be facing a lengthy prison sentence.

[Annie or David Shaler]

I had always intended to, because we left with such a bank, you know, none of our family, none of our friends had any warning. So the first they all found out was the front pages of newspapers. And each of them had some particular horror story about how they reacted to that. So I always knew I'd have to go back. But at that point, I was just the girlfriend. And I flew back voluntarily, accompanied by my lawyer, who was the head of Liberty, a lovely man called John Wadham. Liberty is like the ACLU in the uk, in the us, and turned myself in. So I got arrested, I got threatened. I was interviewed for hours, but didn't say anything and was held on police bail for six months. So I was allowed to go back and forth between wherever David was hiding in the uk, but I still had to go back every month to answer the bill. So it was a tricky few months. They basically held me over his head like a sort of Damocles as a threat. You know, if you keep talking, we're going to do your girlfriend sort of thing. And also they did it to his brother and his two best friends too, on trumped up charges. It was very messy. But after six months they did drop it. They did drop those cases. There was nothing, there was no case. That was the key point. It was just the threat to try and keep Dave in his. In his pen abroad and let the story die down, die down, die down and everyone forget it and there'd be no more scandal and no more calls for reform. It was a weird few months.

[Jack Lawrence]

David would also eventually return to the uk, but would not have his charges dropped and in fact had already served. Spent time in prison in France prior to returning to the uk.

[Annie or David Shaler]

First of all, when the Brits tried to extradite him in 1998 from Paris and he was banged up for four months then in a very notorious hellhole called La Sante Prison, and then the French said he was a whistleblower and they did not extradite people for whistleblowing. So we were free to live for another two years in Paris more openly, but still very surveyed. And then eventually, after two years, he went back to face the music, to pay the price. His debt to society, went on trial and went back to prison. But in fact his sentence was only six months and the trial was such a kangaroo court it was. He wasn't allowed to say anything or question or. There was actually a super injunction gagging the journalists, even mentioning the Gaddafi plot because it might have influenced the jury during the six weeks term of the trial. So the media was not allowed to talk about the Shaler case, which was pretty big at that point. And the only thing I think he was allowed to ask about in court was the rules and regulations in MI5 or something like that. It was so surreal. So of course he was convicted, there was no defence. And the only time either of us had a chance to say anything about why we'd done what we'd done was after he was convicted but not sentenced and he was allowed a mitigation plea. And I was sort of lobbed into the witness stand to do that and try and explain why we had done what we'd done. So Instead of getting two years or 13 months, whatever the judge was Planning. He got six months.

[Jack Lawrence]

I find that fascinating that they even bother having a jury trial when they don't allow any defense. It's like, what is the point? It's. It's almost. It's laughable. It's like, let's. We're gonna have a jury trial here and put you on trial, but you've got no defense.

[Annie or David Shaler]

So I think, I suppose justice has to be seen to be done if it's not done. That's the key point. But, yeah, it was incredibly hard to go through that. I mean, six weeks, for some strange reason, I was allowed down in the well of the court. I mean, you think about your stereotypical British Old Bailey court, right? It's all going to be paneling and galleries and judges and wigs and all that sort of crap. And it was. So it's all done. It's all designed for a sort of theater. And strangely, I was allowed down in the well of the court, sitting just behind Dave and his team, which is unexpected. And right next to me were the benches containing the MI5 officers. They're looking at me sideways, you know, all the way through six weeks of trial. It was horrible.

[Jack Lawrence]

I'm glad to be out of prison where I shouldn't have had to spend four months in prison for criticizing MI5.

[Annie or David Shaler]

This is a very happy day for me in civil liberties and a very sad one and, in fact, embarrassing one

[Jack Lawrence]

for MI5 and the government. You spent a number of years paranoid and, you know, being followed, and it must have affected you psychologically.

[Annie or David Shaler]

You're saying I'm nuts.

[Jack Lawrence]

You'd have to be, surely. I mean, you've been on the run for years, your phones are tapped, terrifying MI5 take you at any minute. I mean, it must affect you, surely, Annie?

[Annie or David Shaler]

Of course it does, yes. And after David had paid his debt to society, he was a free man in 2003. I mean, both of us came out of what had been seven years of this whistleblowing, bloody case. It's sort of like you come up for air, suddenly you surface and you thought, well, what now? And it became very difficult. So, one, we wrote the book about the whole thing and this is a really old book, and I'm not terribly. Yes, yeah, yeah, that one. And that took a year and a half to get cleared by MI5. And we got involved in. This is, of course, the height of the run into the Iraq war, post 9, 11, all that sort of thing. So we got very involved in the stop the war issues and campaigning around that. But it's still well, where now? What can we do? You know, we've no other big organization is ever going to employ us because we're wheeze blowers. How do you rebuild a life like that? So David went down a certain path and I chose another one, which is why we separated in 2006. And after I had taken that other path and got very much into a lot of campaigning, I met a lot of very interesting people, most notably hacktivists, actually. So I sort of ended up diving headfirst into the sort of European hacktivist scene. I don't mean hackers.

[Jack Lawrence]

No, yeah, yeah, yeah, hacktivists. Yep.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Which I found fascinating because it related to a lot of what I'd known, but also related to a lot of what I wanted to learn. And that's what I've been doing ever since. So I think one, that was good because it gave me a certain backup in terms of tech security and help with paranoia. And two, it means that I can do something moving forward that I think will help a lot of other people. Just trying to explain what the tech situation is and how vulnerable people can be both individually, familiarly, community, societally, democratically even, to try and take stuff forward, learn from the old mistakes, learn from what is possible and what was possible, and learn why certain rights are so damned important for all of us if we want to take our world forward. So that's how I survived that process.

[Jack Lawrence]

Obviously, when you guys first left and you went down the track of whistleblowing, you had this idea of wanting to bring the attention to that was going on behind the scenes and the mistakes that were made and issues that were going on within these organizations. Do you think you accomplish what you set out to achieve if you did have something in mind to achieve?

[Annie or David Shaler]

No, I think it's based on.

[Jack Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Annie or David Shaler]

Partly because of bad timing, partly because you're in your late 20s and you know stuff and you think you can do stuff. Right. I mean, Edward Snowden was 29 when he went public as well.

[Jack Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Annie or David Shaler]

So there's a certain energy there. What you don't necessarily realize is that the monolithic sort of bureaucracy will grind on and on and on, whereas you're only one person or two people or whatever, a few people or activists, an activist group. So it's very difficult to try and keep going or try and find new people who take it forward and keep going to make that change. I don't want to sound overly pessimistic. I think you can shift the discussion and the awareness and you kind of form the ongoing and future debates, which is what I still try and do. But in terms of creating a bit of a scandal and having a big change that didn't happen, and I'm really regretful of that. And what I find very distressing is of course, what's happening with the new updated proposed Official Secrets act, because that's going to get worse and make it harder. What I found very interesting though, I mean, I used to write and speak very outspoken about the whole WikiLeaks case. Julian Assange is not a whistleblower. He's a high tech publisher and an award winning journalist by the way. And Australia should be defending him. But so then we had the Snowden staff and he was the one who rescued Snowden from Hong Kong and that's even a decade ago. And then weirdly, we had the Tehera case, you know, the guy, military guy in America that was releasing information a couple of weeks ago who's been arrested and he was just confirming all sorts of horrors that the American government is still doing and war crimes and all that sort of thing. But he was using not the old mainstream media and not WikiLeaks. He was using social media to spread the word. Not obvious open social media, but I think it was discord. It started out and then it started tweeting. So there are evolutions and various ways that people on the inside can get information out, but the risk is still the same. So the fact that despite all the hideous previous examples, Snowden came out straight after the Chelsea Manning case and knew the risks and still did what he did. Others have come out immediately after other hideous whistleblowing cases and the penalties faced and people still will do it. There is a drive for freedom and a drive for human rights, I think in most decent people that we all need to remember. And if people on the inside come out and try and do something like that, they're doing it for a damn good reason and they need all the support they can get rather than believing the crap that's in the media, you know, the disinformation, the lies that might be spread about them. It's not about the personality, it's about the principles at stake. And that is what everyone should always remember. And if we don't stand up for the principles at stake, we will end up in some hideous totalitarian police state or, you know, whatever, or we will lose our basic freedoms. And that is the key point I would like your listeners to take away tonight.

[Jack Lawrence]

During the course of my chat, you may notice at certain points Annie was very careful about what she said and even caught herself at one stage. Obviously, she still has to remain very careful with what she says, but I didn't realize just how careful until she said this.

[Annie or David Shaler]

So I'm sitting here in front of my computer, which is open source, which I hope is safe, but probably not with my computer covered. But I'm absolutely certain that my phone is compromised. So I do my interview stuff, my media stuff via this phone. But yeah, I have no concept that I have privacy here now talking to you.

[Jack Lawrence]

So you're of the, you're of the absolute positivity that your phone is currently being watched by somebody or it's, you know, it's under surveillance of some form.

[Annie or David Shaler]

All our phones are right.

[Jack Lawrence]

But I imagine yours, yours may be more than mine. Or maybe mine, maybe mine's now going to be more focused on. I want to say a huge thank you, of course, to Annie for coming on and telling me her incredible story. She. She has a book out called the Primacy Mission Achieving Ethical Data for Our Lives Online, the details of which and a link to which you can find in the show notes of this episode. I, of course, want to thank all of our guests on season one of Wanted and to you for listening to our first season. If you enjoyed the show, I would love it if you would leave us a rating and a review to help other people find the show and help people directly find the show by telling them about it. Tell your friends, friends, family, people next to you in the car, just yell, listen to Wanted. And of course, if you're looking for another podcast to binge and you haven't already heard about it, we have another show called One Minute Remaining Stories from the Inmates, where I interview men and women incarcerated across the United States for various crimes. There's over 100 episodes for you to binge right now, and you can check it out wherever you're listening to Wanted right now. So until next time, stay out of trouble. And if you do end up on the run, you know who to call.

[Acast Announcer]

I'm a wanderer of the soul before the end I plan to behold But I know I lose myself along the way what's gone is gone what's past is past. Let me leave a blue nose and. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Annie or David Shaler]

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[Acast Announcer]

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[Annie or David Shaler]

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[Jack Lawrence]

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[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

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[Acast Announcer]

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[Annie or David Shaler]

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[Jack Lawrence]

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[Annie or David Shaler]

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[Jack Lawrence]

And we interview superstar players like bachelorette

[Annie or David Shaler]

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[Acast Announcer]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com.