Catching My Sister's Killer (Classic)

Summary

Podcast Summary: What It Was Like

Episode: Catching My Sister’s Killer (Classic)

Host: Julian Morgans (Superreal)
Guest: Dawn Smith Jordan
Release Date: October 24, 2025

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Overview

In this deeply moving episode, host Julian Morgans interviews Dawn Smith Jordan, whose 17-year-old sister, Sherry Smith, was abducted and murdered in South Carolina in 1985. Dawn recounts the events surrounding the abduction, the harrowing phone calls with the kidnapper, and how her role became key in the investigation. Through profound loss, Dawn ultimately finds forgiveness and resilience, offering listeners a story that is as heartbreaking as it is inspiring.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dawn’s Life Before the Tragedy

• Dawn introduces herself as a singer, songwriter, author, and mother living in Columbia, South Carolina (06:36-06:53).

• She describes an idyllic childhood: "I'm the oldest of three....we moved...basically in the middle of 20 acres, no neighbors on either side. So it ended up being a great place to be able to grow up." (07:01)

• On her relationship with Sherry:

  • "Sherry and I were very close...we shared a lot of the same interests: horses, music, piano lessons" (07:49)
  • Sherry was described as “so full of life...with a radiant smile and friendly personality. She was a friend to everybody.” (08:05)

2. The Day of Sherry’s Abduction

• Dawn learns of the abduction while away in Charlotte; initially, the word “abducted” doesn’t register:

  • “I remember her saying, Sherry has been abducted. And in that moment...I couldn’t even grasp the meaning of that word.” (10:09)

• The family's shock: "You can't ever imagine that anything like this would happen to your family, to your sister, to you." (13:19)

• Discovery details:

  • Sherry’s car found running at the top of the driveway, purse and insulin left inside; footprints to mailbox, none returning (13:38-14:55)
  • "That immediately posed just concern and fear for where was she? She has to have her medicine." (14:50)

• The first phone call:

  • Kidnapper calls the family’s landline, asking for Dawn’s mother and sharing unsettling details (16:15-17:20)
  • Law enforcement and eventually the FBI are called in—FBI profiling is new at the time (17:50)

3. The Killer’s Harassment and FBI Profiling

• The kidnapper calls a total of eight times, always requesting Dawn’s mother at first.

  • “He called eight different times…he wouldn't speak to anyone in authority…he just kept asking for my mom.” (18:30-18:55)

• The psychological toll and FBI strategy:

  • “It just became so unbearable for her (Dawn's mother) to talk to this person who had her daughter.” (19:12)
  • The FBI decides Dawn should answer:
    “She said, we feel like he has an infatuation with Sherry. And if you can be kind and keep him on the phone, he’ll turn that fascination toward you….which proved to be right.” (20:53)

Notable Quote

"That's a lot of responsibility, being asked by the FBI… That's a lot for a young woman. How did you feel?"
"Absolutely, yes. I will do whatever it takes to get Sheri back… it was like this was something I could do."
—Dawn Smith Jordan (21:39–21:56)

• FBI coaching:

  • Dawn is told to remain calm, kind, patient—"The main objective ... was to be very calm, very kind, very patient, very understanding." (22:50)

• Phone tracing challenges:

  • “Every time it was like he knew exactly how long he could be on the line. They would trace the call…he would be gone every time.” (23:52)

• Dawn’s “role” on the phone:

  • “It sort of feels … you might have been almost getting into character… Did it feel like that?”
  • Dawn: "I had a role to play. And then I would hang up and I would just shake or cry or just be so angry..." (28:15–28:50)

4. Sherry’s Last Letter

• The kidnapper signals a letter will arrive; hope rises.
• Sherry’s handwritten “Last Will and Testament” (31:23):

Notable Quote (Sherry’s Letter) [31:23]

“Please don’t even let this ruin your lives. Just keep living one day at a time for Jesus. Some good will come out of this… My thoughts will always be with and in you. … Everything works out for the good for those that love the Lord.” — Sherry Smith (Read by Dawn, 31:23–34:25)

• The letter’s power:
  • “That letter was the most amazing gift to my family…she was at peace… all she worried about was telling us: 'Don’t let my death ruin your lives. Y’all have got to keep on living.'” (34:18)
  • Dawn notes, “even to have the closure that we have when there are so many people that never have that, I’m grateful.” (37:30)

5. The Discovery and Aftermath

• On the fifth day, the killer gives directions to Sherry’s body (40:49)

  • “We just hoped against hope she was going to be found alive…my mom packed a bag for the hospital.” (40:57)
  • The authorities inform them Sherry was dead the whole time.

• The killer calls again on the day of the funeral, taunting them about having attended (43:50)

• Law enforcement’s strategy continues: using a newspaper story about a koala on Sherry’s grave to lure the killer into calling. He reveals incriminating details about another missing girl and issues a direct threat to Dawn (46:04–47:00).

6. The Killer’s Capture and Identification

• Forensic examiners find an imprint of a phone number on the page below Sherry’s letter; it leads to a house where the killer is arrested (47:00).

Notable Moment

• Dawn and her mother identify Larry Gene Bell in jail:

  • “He was...nothing like the man that I had been talking to on the phone. He was mild and meek and pitiful…” (49:33-50:00)

• Dawn’s mother’s remarkable act:

  • “I know you’re the man that killed my daughter...and I don’t even hate you. I pray God has mercy on your soul and I forgive you.” (50:20)
  • Dawn’s reaction: “He deserves no mercy. He deserves no kindness. This is over.” (52:00)

7. On Forgiveness and Moving Forward

• Forgiveness as a journey:
  • “I honestly did not feel one ounce of mercy for him in that room…all you can worry about is yourself…” (53:17)
  • “Forgiveness is a choice. That was a life-changing moment for me…just as Sherry came to peace with her death, so have I.” (55:00)

Notable Quote

“We don’t have to allow what happened to us to define who we are. We get to have a say in that.” — Dawn Smith Jordan (60:54)

• Dawn on processing trauma:

  • “It’s been a process and it’s been a journey…a journey of struggle and anger and frustration and forgiveness, and then taking back the forgiveness and being unforgiving again and then choosing forgiveness again.” (59:09)

• On living with purpose:

  • “This day is a gift. It is a present. It’s the present. And I have this very day to be the best mother I can…” (60:15)
  • “I’m not this woman who lives under the shadow of a tragedy. Because there’s more to life than what happened to us…For every single one of us, we don’t have to allow what happened to us to define who we are.” (60:54)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On being asked to talk to the killer:
  “It was almost like an out of body experience...I just remember going, absolutely, yes, I will do whatever it takes to get Sheri back.” — Dawn Smith Jordan (21:53)

• On her mother’s forgiveness:
  “She said, the moment I looked at him, I realized that he is another mother’s son. And I felt mercy for his mother.” — Dawn Smith Jordan (50:36)

• On forgiveness:
  “Forgiveness is a choice. That was a life changing moment for me because I’m not angry anymore. I’m definitely not bitter. And just as Sherry came to peace with her death, so have I.” (55:14)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 06:36–08:54 | Dawn’s childhood and relationship with Sherry | | 10:09–13:33 | The day of the abduction | | 16:15–17:50 | The first call from the kidnapper; FBI involvement | | 18:30–21:39 | Sequence and experience of the phone calls | | 21:39–24:20 | Dawn steps in to answer the calls | | 24:28–28:50 | Inside a call with the killer; psychological toll | | 30:15–35:06 | Sherry’s last letter | | 40:49–43:50 | Discovery of Sherry and the killer’s final taunt | | 44:16–47:00 | The killer’s threat and the investigative breakthrough | | 49:00–53:10 | Confronting the killer and the family's response | | 55:14–62:06 | Dawn’s journey toward forgiveness and hope |

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Epilogue: Where Are They Now?

• Larry Bell: Executed in 1996 by electric chair; had no final words (62:11)
• Dawn Smith Jordan: Crowned Miss South Carolina in 1986, released multiple albums, authored several books, and now shares her story and message of hope.

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Closing Reflection

Dawn’s story is an intimate portrait of trauma, unimaginable loss, extraordinary courage, and ultimately, the power of forgiveness. The episode is not only an account of a criminal case but a testament to the resilience of the human spirit:

"We don’t have to allow what happened to us to define who we are. We get to have a say in that." (60:54)

Listeners are left with the message that every day is a gift, and with compassion and conscious choice, it is possible to emerge from hardship with hope.

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For more on Dawn Smith Jordan: dawnsmithjordan.com

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(Adverts, show intro/outro, and non-content sections omitted. All timestamps are approximate.)

Transcript

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[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go?

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[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Hey, friends, We've got our heads down at the moment because we're working on some new stories and that kind of means that there's no new story. This week, however, just stick around because we're going to rerun a classic. That's what we're calling them now. These are, these. These are not reruns. They're classics. And this one is one of my all time favorites. It's about a woman whose sister was kidnapped as a child. And then the kidnapper started calling the house just, just purely to taunt the family. And this woman, my guest, she was the one tasked to answer the phone. She was like 21 years old at the time and she had to answer the phone and talk to this kidnapper who had her youngest sister and try to keep this guy on the line and try to extract some information. It's a really moving story. It's one that we did probably 18 months ago, maybe two years. But it's really stayed with me and I'm glad that we're going to share it again. If you haven't heard it, strap in. Now, having said that, we do have a new episode, but it's exclusive to subscribers. By the way, did you know that we run whole other episodes every week just for subscribers? We do, and in this episode I'm talking with a man who holds the record for the largest penis in the world. Now that's what the headline is. But really, I think at its core, it's a story about the human need to belong and the difficulty of accepting our bodies. I think these are the universal themes that everyone can relate to. Anyway, that's the exclusive subscriber only episode, but let's get on with this week's main episode, Catching My Sister's Killer. Hey, I'm Julian Morgans and you're listening to what It Was Like. The show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. Hello again. It's another week and I'm back to keep you company while you drive or you do the dishes or, or you try to sleep or whatever it is that you're doing right now. This story takes us to the American Deep south, to South Carolina, where in the 1980s, a 17 year old girl named Sherry Smith was abducted from the top of her driveway. I first heard about this case by reading the book Mindhunter, which later became a Netflix show. The author is a man named John E. Douglas, and he worked as a criminal profiler for the FBI. And halfway through the book, he writes about this woman, this sister of a murder victim who really stood out to him. And this was Dawn Smith Jordan, who was 21 when her sister Sherry was abducted and suffocated with duct tape. And the reason that dawn appears in the book was that she was instrumental in catching the killer. So as you'll hear today, the killer, he started calling the family just to taunt them and the FBI, they asked dawn to answer the phone whenever he rang to try to keep him on the line. This was the 1980s, so phone tracing was slow and Dawn's job was to delay, to ask questions, to flatter him, to do whatever it took and to keep him on the line. And I was reading this, like, how could, how could someone go through that, you know, to be nice to Someone who has abducted your sister. What does it take to get in that headspace? And so I thought that's. That's some interesting psychology. And I want to speak to Dawn. So that's what we're doing today. Dawn is here to tell us her story. And I guarantee you're gonna cry. I knew. I knew I did. But. But I think you'll also feel elated by Dawn's approach to life. I think this is the wildest, saddest, yet most unexpectedly inspiring story told by a beautiful soul. So I bring you Dawn Smith Jordan. Dawn, welcome to the show.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Thank you, Julian. It's so good to be with you.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Let's start with an introduction. Who are you?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

My name is Dawn Smith Jordan, and I live in Columbia, South Carolina. And. And I am a singer, speaker, songwriter, author, recording artist, mother of two grown children, living my best life.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

That's great. I really like that. And tell me a little bit about where you grew up. What am I imagining?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

I'm the oldest of three, so I was first. Three years later, my sister Sherry came along. Three years later, our little brother came along, Robert. And when I was going into the eighth grade, my dad had grown up in the country with horses and cows, and he. He just loved the idea of us being more out in the country. So he moved our family from the suburbs to a field basically in the middle of 20 acres, no neighbors on either side. So it ended up being a great place to be able to grow up.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

That's great. So I want to talk about your relationship with your sister Sherry. Can you. You guys were close?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Sherry and I were very close. And. And we shared a lot of the same interest. You know, horses, music, piano lessons, all the things that I sang in as a part of our church, she did at school. Same thing.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

So. So how would you. How would you describe Sheri?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Sheri was so full of life and had the. A great quick sense of humor, a dry wit. She's so talented, an amazing singer, and she had the personality that. And people still tell me to this day, yesterday somebody wrote me on Facebook and said, I went to school with your sister Sherry. I didn't know her personally, but I remember her. What did she say? Her radiant smile and her friendly personality. And she always kind of. I've heard this from a lot of people. She. She was in the popular crowd, but if somebody was sitting by themselves in the lunchroom, she would go over and go, hey, don't sit by yourself. Come sit with us. I mean, she was a friend to everybody.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

I mean, so far, it sounds like you had the most perfect upbringing in the whole world. You know, just rolling hills and sleepovers and singing and, you know, the relationship with your sister sounds beautiful. And then, you know, obviously she was abducted. And it just sounds like this moment in time, it's such a stark contrast to what came before.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Yeah, I was very blessed with a lot of wonderful parts of growing up, and I'm very grateful for those. And yes, in 1985, when Sherry was abducted, that sort of thing was not on the news every night. It was so shocking and horrific. And I still have people to this day. As recently as Saturday, when I was speaking and singing at a church, several people there said, I remember when your sister was taken. And they'll tell me about the fact that they had a blonde little girl and they wouldn't let them go outside because of the fear that they could be snatched as well. And so it really changed not just my family's life, but our community and our state.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Well, can you take me back to that day in 1985? Can you. Can you tell me how it started?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

May 31st of 1985. I was a rising senior at a local college. Here I was a voice major, vocal performance. And it was two days from Sherry's high school graduation. She was 17 and I was 21. And she had been at graduation rehearsal that morning and had gone to a pool party with her friends to celebrate the graduation. And I was living in Charlotte, North Carolina at the time. I was working at a theme park there as a singer dancer. So that was my job in the summers. And I had been out shopping for her graduation gift. I had always had hamsters in my dorm, so I got Sherry a hamster. And I came in the door from shopping. I had an apartment there. And my roommate met me at the door and said, you need to call your mom immediately. And I said, why, is something wrong? And I remember her saying, sherry has been abducted. And in that moment, I remember thinking, what does abducted mean? I couldn't even grasp the meaning of that word. It just would not even sink in. And I just said, what do you mean? And she said, call your mom. And so that is how I found out. And I called my mom and she said the craziest thing, because you just can't. It just doesn't. The reality of the situation doesn't sink in to a 21 year old who's singing and dancing for her job and out shopping. And, you know, I was going home that weekend to celebrate Sherry's graduation and to Be there. And so I called my mom and she said, sherry is missing. A policeman is on his way to your apartment. Pack a bag. You're coming home. And I was like, no, she's not, mom. She's just gone off with her friends somewhere. She's fine. You know, I just couldn't even. I mean, it's like it just wouldn't register, you know. And she said, dawn, this is serious. Pack a bag. And sure enough, a South Carolina law enforcement officer showed up at my apartment door and escorted me the two hour drive to Lexington, South Carolina. And the whole way there, I mean, the whole ride, it was just. I thought I was. I mean, honestly, at 21 years old, I was annoyed. I thought, I am going to. And my show opened the next day. I said, mom, it's all going to be a mistake and I'm going to come home and I'm going to. I mean, just selfish young woman that I was, that we are when we're young. And I just said, I'm going to miss the opening of my show tomorrow. I can't come home. And then, you know, that whole way driving home, I just kept thinking of all the scenarios that it would. Could possibly be. And he pulled the car into the driveway, and the driveway was 750ft long. And the minute that we turned into the driveway, there were police cars, sheriff's department cars, people everywhere. And that is when the reality of the fact that my sister was really missing hit. And, and, and it was you. There are no words to describe it, Julian. You. You can't. I mean, our lives were so sheltered and this just was not something that we could. You just can't ever imagine that anything like this would happen to your family, to your sister, to you.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Yeah. Yeah. So what happened next?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

So I walked in the door and immediately saw my mom and knew that it was. It was real. Her face just told the story. And just. I. Some of my family was there, my brother was there, but there were all these random people I didn't know that were law enforcement officers. And, and, and I just began to learn what had happened. And Sherry had been in town and she was beautiful. She's beautiful blonde. And what we, what we began to understand had happened was that they believed that she had been kidnapped. Her car door was left open, the car was running. Her purse was left inside at the top of the driveway because she got out of the car to get the mail and it was as if she had vanished into thin air. There were footprints leading to the mailbox, but none coming back. And Sherry had a rare form of diabetes called diabetes insipidus, which is water diabetes. And so she had to have her insulin, and her insulin was in her purse in the car, in the front seat. And that immediately posed just concern and fear for. Where was she? She has to have her medicine. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Who found her car?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

My dad. So my dad. Mom worked from home, and my dad looked out the window and just yelled to my mom, sherry's home. And then he noticed it had been a few minutes, and her car was still at the end of the driveway. And he just said something in him. Told him something wasn't right. And so he said, I don't see Sherry. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go check on her. And so when your driveway is 750ft long, you don't walk up the driveway. So he drove. He got his keys, and he drove to the end of the driveway, and he was the first one to find her car. And, you know, with it running and all of that. And then he sped back down the driveway, and he told my mom, call Sheriff Metz. I don't see Sherry, and I'm gonna go look for her. And so then he immediately drove back up the driveway and just began to drive up and down the road, yelling her name, looking for her.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

How awful for your dad. That'd be so traumatic.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

That is unfathomable.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

So. So the police were obviously taking it pretty seriously. Do you know. Do you know why?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

They were. They were thinking she might. All of the different options, they were thinking, you know, could she have run away? Well, why would she run away? I mean, she was graduating in two days. She was singing the national anthem. She was going on a cruise with her classmates. She was. She had a boyfriend. She was coming to college to study voice like she was on top of the world. Yeah, but, you know, they just. They just. They were like, do you know of a reason she would run away? No. Why would she run away? And so it just seemed that the only explanation could be that she was taken, that she was kidnapped, and. Yeah, but again, in those first 12 hours, there was no clue. And then in the wee hours of that first morning, our home phone rang because there were no cell phones. Our landline phone rang, and this person asked to speak to my mother. And so my mom answered, and she thought that it was one of the law enforcement officers, because he was kind of just stating some facts about what Sherry had on her being at the driveway. And then she realized. And she said, oh, my God. When she hung up. That man has Sherry. So that is when they immediately went into, okay, this is a kidnapping mode. And, and the sheriff's department was already there. And then they called in South Carolina law enforcement, and then they called in the FBI. And that was back when FBI profiling was a brand new science. And so they called in a profiler who put together this profile of what he thought this person could be like, which proved, amazingly, to be 100% accurate. And, and I mean, and that's when everyone was called in. But it really was. It was like a nightmare, Julian. I mean, I just can't. Words can't adequately express how our family was living through this.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Yeah. So. So tell me about these phone calls, because I understand that wasn't. That wasn't the first phone call.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

He called eight different times, and it ended up being. Eight. Yes, eight. And it was during this month long investigation where he would call and the calls would be traced. And at first he asked to speak to my mom. He wouldn't speak to anyone in authority. He wouldn't speak to a man. He didn't. He just kept asking for my mom.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Okay, and just so a couple of details here. Right. So I'm imagining that your house is full of law enforcement. Okay. And if the phone rang, generally it was some sort of police officer who would pick it up.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

And then this guy would say, hi, can I speak to, you know, your mom?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Is that. That's how it would go down? Okay.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Yes. The. The phone rang and the sheriff was immediately in. We were, we were all, mom, dad, Robert and I were lying down on their bed and their king size bed. And this was like in the wee hours of the morning. And of course we couldn't sleep, but they said, just go try to rest. And so the sheriff answered and he said, I want to speak to Hilda. That's my mom's name. And. And so then he called again and he would ask to speak. So my mom would just answer the phone at this point. And then it just became so unbearable for her to talk to this person who had her daughter.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

What was this guy saying to your mom?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

I mean, he was telling her what Sherry had on when he took her. He would say things like, you know, I pulled a gun out and told her to get in the car. And she did. And she had the fear of God in her and she got in the car. And then he would say, we're watching the news and tell the sheriff he's searching in the wrong place. Taunting you, just cruelly taunting her family. And Saying, I'm so sorry, this just got out of hand. I didn't mean for this to happen. And, and my mom, when we were told, you have got to be patient, you've got to be kind. We've got to keep him on the phone as long as possible to trace these calls so that hopefully we can catch him and get Sherry back. And so at one point, I remember my mom, she was just exhausted and so overcome with emotion that she just lost it and she just screamed into the phone, please do not kill my daughter.

[BetterHelp PSA Announcer]

Yeah.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

And so after that, I remember one of the female sled agents took me upstairs in my bedroom. And, I mean, I was 21. And she said, we're going to need you to answer the phone. It's becoming too upsetting to your mom. And the profiler had come up with this idea that he was so infatuated with Sherry and that because we looked so much alike, people thought we were twins, because we did. We looked just like. We sang together. We wore twin outfits when we sang. And they, she said, we, we feel like he has an infatuation and a fascination with Sherry. And if you can be kind and keep him on the phone, he'll turn that fascination toward you. And we think he'll continue to call, which was genius. Which proved to be right.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

You know, that's a lot of responsibility, being asked by the FBI to, hey, when your sister's kidnapper calls, can you get on the line and talk to this guy? I mean, that's a lot for a young woman. How did you feel?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

You know, I look back on it and I. I just, I. I remember it was almost like an out of body experience, if that makes sense. It wasn't even like, for a second I thought, I don't know if I can do this. Let me think about this. I just remember going, absolutely, yes, I will do whatever it takes to get Sheri back. And. And it was like, this was something that I could do that I could do to help, that I could, because it's a helpless feeling when your sister is lost and there is nothing that you can do but sit and wait. And so, I mean, I just remember going, yes, absolutely, I'm in. Let's do this. And so then they would coach me on how to talk to them, what to say. They would be passing me notes while I was talking, asking this, you know, so they were. The law enforcement were amazing.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

What was their main piece of advice on how to handle one of these calls?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

The main objective and the main direction that I was Given was to be very calm, very kind, very patient, very understanding. And you're talking about all of these things to a person who is holding your sister.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Yeah, that's hard.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

And yet I. But honestly, it was. It was amazing that I never felt like I wanted to scream at him or lose it. I mean, I just. It was like I went into, okay, this is my job. I'm the only person that can do this job. I have to do this. And I'm going to do this because this means we might get Sherry back. Now, after I would hang up, I would fall apart often, but during the phone calls, I mean, it was just like, it was my job. It was. It was what I had to do.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

How long was it going to take? So you say that the objective was to trace the call. And I don't know what the technology was like in 1985, but I imagine it took a couple of minutes, sort of. Did they tell you how long you had to keep him on the phone for?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

They would just keep doing this to me. Keep going, keep talking. Ask him this, ask him this. Because he would. He would try to end the phone calls and I would say, tell me more about yourself. I mean, I set these questions just random. Well, I don't understand you say this. And every time it was like he knew exactly how long he could be on the line. They would trace the call. They would get to where he was and he would be gone every time.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

So let's go into one of these calls in detail. Like, can you talk to me about the first time the phone rang? What did he sound like? How did you feel?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Well, he had kind of altered his voice a little bit. The FBI agent thought that he was some kind of electrician and he was. So he had some type of voice modification device that he was using. So he sounded very electronic and a little bit distorted. So his voice wasn't even a normal sounding voice. It was.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

That's spooky.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

It was awful. Yeah, it was awful. And. And he would. And he would. He would think that he was being so funny, and it would. I remember just being nauseated because I would. I would end. I would say hello, and he would go. He would say things like dawn, like the break of day, but it was this terrible voice, you know, And. And he would think. And then he would laugh or he would chuckle and I would just roll my eyes and I would say, yes. And he would say, so have you heard of. And he would name where he had been and, you know, they just missed me. And the Cops almost got me this time. But tell Sheriff Metz he's looking in the wrong place. They need to look this direction, this direction. And he would always say, I'm so sorry. This just got out of hand. I hope you can forgive me. I hope God can forgive me. And you know, I would have these scripted things that I would be told to say. And I would say, you don't have to kill my sister. You can turn yourself in. And all we want is Sherry back. Please give Sherry back. And, and he would just. His. His communications didn't make a lot of sense. And so he would just ramble on about how do you know what they would do to me if I was caught. And of course, we are still hoping Sherry is alive because he would say, he would even go into detail and say, I'm giving her this many liters of water every hour because she had to have water or she would become severely dehydrated and go into a coma and die from her disease. So it wasn't that we were just worried about what this person could be doing to my sister, but what her disease could be doing to her body. And so he would, he would lie and he would say, you know, I gave her two liters of water. It's going straight through her. But we're watching the news and we don't understand. Tell Sheriff Metz this and just didn't make any sense at all.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

So on the one hand, the FBI was busily profiling this guy, but then on the other hand, you have your own powers of character assessment. What was the impression that you got personally of this man? How did you imagine the person on the other end of the call?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Well, looking back now, he was very narcissistic. It was all about himself. It wasn't about my family, it wasn't about my sister. He seemed to have this block of being able to grasp how desperate we were to get Sheri back. It was all about him. It was all about what he was going through and what would happen to him if he turned himself in and just completely self focused and self absorbed.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Yeah, he sounds pretty self pitying as well. This whole thing about like, oh, it just got out of control, you know, I just wanted to. Just wanted to borrow her or whatever nonsense he was thinking. And then it somehow got out of control. Like, that's reasonable.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

And then, and then you'd get off the, the call and be upset. I'm drawing at straws here, but I mean, you sort of came from a theater background and it sort of feels to me, like, you might have been almost getting into character. You know, you get on these calls, you put on a brave face. You sort of like, all right, this is the person I need to be in this role in this moment. And then after the reality comes back, I don't know. Did it feel like that at all?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

That's a really good way of looking at it. And I've never thought about it that way in all of these years, but I think you hit the nail on the head. Yes, I had to be the kind, compassionate, patient sister. And. And I. And I did. Yes. I had a role to play. And then I would hang up, and I would just shake or cry or just be so angry, just, oh, my gosh, why can y' all not find her? Why can y' all not get him? What is taking so long? You know? And the authorities were doing everything they could. It wasn't their fault. He was so crafty in the way that he would get away every single time. And it was almost kind of a cat and mouse kind. It was kind of a game to him. Like, he thought it was fun. He was enjoying it.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Yeah. And meanwhile, I understand that the biggest manhunt in South Carolina history was underway to try to find this guy. So I'm picturing, you know, dogs and cars and helicopters, and they're just pulling apart the countryside trying to find him.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Can you. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

So there were every. There were so many different searches going on. There were people by the hundreds on foot combing the woods around my family's home. There were police cars stationed everywhere, roadblocks. There was the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division helicopter that would also be flying over the places where the phone calls had been traced. It was the most incredible manhunt this state had ever seen. There had never been anything like it.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

I understand that through this period, your sister wrote a letter. Can you tell me about that?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

So he. He told us in one of the phone calls that a letter would be coming from Sherry. And again, that gave us such hope that if she wrote a letter, she was alive to write the letter. And he said, check the mail. And sure enough, this letter came. It was in Sherry's handwriting, and it was dated June 1, 1985. And it said 3:10am so it. If that were true, then he had held her for about 12 hours, and then he had given her the opportunity to write this letter to our family. I will probably get emotional talking about it. Yeah. But it's one of the main reasons that that I've been able to go on with my life because that's what Sherry wanted us to do. And that's what she said in her letter. And I'd be glad to read it if you want me to.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

I'd love to hear.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Is such an incredible testament to her strength. I mean, at 17 years old, you don't hear any fear in it. She's not even worried about herself. It's. It just seems like she had come to terms and she was at peace with knowing that her life was probably about to end. So I. I'd love to read it. It's in the left hand corner. It says 61 85. And she wrote in capital letters, I love y'. All. And then it stated 3:10am and she called it Last Will and Testament. And she wrote, I love you, Mommy, Daddy, Robert, dawn and Richard and everyone else and all other friends and relatives. I'll be with my father now. So please, please don't worry. Just remember my witty personality and great special times we all shared together. Please don't even let this ruin your lives. Just keep living one day at a time for Jesus. Some good will come out of this. My thoughts will always be with and in you. And in parentheses, casket closed. I love you all so. And she underlined damn much. Sorry, Dad. I had to cuss. For once, Jesus forgave me. Richard, sweetie, that was her boyfriend. I really did and always will love you and treasure our special moments. My family has always been the greatest influence of my life. Sorry about the cruise money. Somebody please go in my place. I'm sorry if I ever disappointed you in any way. I only wanted to make you proud of me because I've always been proud of my family. Mom, dad, Robert and Dawn. There's so much I want to say that I should have said before now. I love you. I know y' all love me and will miss me very much. But if y' all stick together like we always did, y' all can do it. Please do not become hard or upset. Everything works out for the good, for those that love the Lord. All my love always, Sharon Sherry Face Smith. And then she wrote, I love y' all with all of my heart. And then P. S, Nana. That was our grandmother. I love you so much. I kind of always felt like your favorite. You were mine. I love you a lot. And that letter was the most amazing gift to my family. To see Sherry's handwriting, to see the smiley faces that she put in the corners of the pages, to see that she really seemed to be at peace. Like, she had accepted that this could be it. And all she worried about was telling us, don't let my death ruin your lives. Y' all have got to keep on living. And. And I love that she said, just keep living one day at a time, because that's really all you can do when you go through something like this. You can't even imagine past this minute, this moment of grief and horror and tragedy. And I love that she said, just keep living one day at a time. And then she said, some good will come out of this. And how in the world she could say those words at 17 years old, sitting in this room with this person that she didn't know who told her that he was going to kill her. And he gave her three choices, none of which anybody would ever choose.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

I have just one question about the letter. And that. And that is, you know, it feels to me like it's such a powerful letter because it's so brave. It's so strong. It's so. And I want to know, before that letter, did you know that your sister had this strength?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Sherry was very strong willed. She was. She was always the strong one. She had to be. She had this disease that was oftentimes debilitating. She grew up where, before they diagnosed her, they had no idea what was wrong with her. But my mother would tell me about when she was a baby, and because they didn't know, and she was so thirsty, mom would find her literally drinking out of the dog's water bowl or drinking out of the toilet, just so thirsty, because they didn't know. You know, mom would feed her and she would immediately wet her diaper. She was thirsty. So dehydrated and thirsty all of the time, and you can't even begin. I can't imagine being a little baby, being a little girl, and. And feeling that way. And so it really. I think that really did cause her to become so strong. And. And so I think all of that made her strong because she decided, this is my plight, this is what I am, this is what I got to deal with. Okay, what are we gonna do about it? And that was her personality. She was that way with everything. And so. And I think that played over into the unimaginable situation she found herself in. I mean, I have always said, I cannot even fathom sitting in that room, looking at that blank piece of paper and thinking, even at my age. I mean, I just turned 60, and I can't imagine looking at a piece of paper that is blank and holding a pen and thinking, Okay. I could very well be writing the last words that I'm ever going to say to my children that I love with all of my heart, to my family, to my friends, to my brother, to the people that I love the most that, like. Like, how do you even begin to try to put words to paper to cover the last thing you ever say to the people that you love most? And so when you think about it that way, it is such an incredibly strong, brave, purposeful letter. The things that she chose to say to us, just so incredibly selfless. And even to have the closure that we have when there are so many people that never have that I'm grateful to know. I'm grateful to know what happened to her, to know that. That we. We didn't have to live the rest of our lives wondering, yes, what had happened. And so that letter was that blessing for us.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Hey, we're going to stop here for a quick ad break, but we'll be right back with more what it was like.

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[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

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[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

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[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

My understanding is that eventually he gave directions to, to your sister's body. Tell me about that.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

It was on the fifth day after Sherry's abduction and disappearance that he called again. And he and I took the call and he seemed to be giving some sort of directions. And so I was frantically always trying to write down what he was saying. And I was writing down the directions and I was saying, hold on, I didn't get that. And he would say, I know these phone calls are being recorded. It'll be on the recording. But still, in case something happened to the recording, they always told me, write it down, take notes so that we have them. And at the end of the directions, he was very quick, and he had not been quick before in the phone calls. And he just said, follow this, go here, go there. Sherry will be waiting. And we just hoped against hope that she was going to be found alive. We, we just knew it. He had been telling us he'd been taking care of her and that she was alive. And that's what we expected. Um, my mom even packed a bag for the hospital just thinking that she would be found sick, but she would be alive. And so we waited and waited. It seemed like an eternity. And then the authorities came back and, and we knew by the sound of their footprints that it wasn't footsteps coming back up the stairs. We waited in my bedroom upstairs. And, and his, the South Carolina law enforcement officers was steps were heavy and slow. And he confirmed that they had found Sherry's body and that she had been dead the whole time. And so all of all along here we were hoping, praying all along. I was on the phone with this man, you know, saying, please turn yourself in. The authorities will work with you. Please, all we want is Sherry back. And he would say, he would make it seem like he was going to do that. He was going to, I will turn myself in, you know. And then he had actually killed her the very first night and was so cruel to give us hope and to taunt us like he did. And so they found her body. All forensic evidence was destroyed because she'd been left outside in the South Carolina heat. And we didn't hear from him for a little while until the day of the funeral. We walked in the door and the phone immediately rang and it was him again telling me that he had been at the funeral and laughing about it and laughing about the fact that they almost caught him, but he got away again. And then after that it was quiet for quite a while.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Yeah, well, let's. Let's talk about how this creep got, you know, put in prison. So you went to the funeral. I imagine that was just heartbreaking. And. And then this guy had the nerve to call afterwards and say he'd been at the funeral, he'd seen it. So sort of take the, take the lead from there. Like what happened next.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

At that point, the patient dawn kind of went out the window. I was so done because I was angry. I just buried my sister and he has the audacity to call her home and laugh about it. And I was angry, I was frustrated. I didn't want to talk to him. But there again, he still needed to be caught. And so I had to again, patience, kindness, understanding, you know, our family will forgive you. Please turn yourself in. And it was after that phone call that he went silent for days. A few weeks had passed and we saw in the news that was a. There was a little nine year old girl that had been kidnapped from in front of her house, playing in the yard with her little brother. And so the authorities decided that we needed to do something to try to draw him out. And so they. Columbia College's mascot was a koala, koala bear, which. Hey, you guys have koala bears, right?

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Yes, we're famous for them.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Yes, exactly. I just realized that. So they had this idea that my family and I would go to Sherry's grave and I would have a little koala and I would put it on the grave. And the media came, and the newspaper came, and they did a story about it in the news.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Okay, what was the psychology here? What were they like, using this koala as bait? How did this work?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Draw him out. Draw him out. Give him a reason to want to call me again.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Okay?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Because it was me putting the koala on Cheri's grave in the paper. And it was a story. And so, sure enough, he called and he immediately said, have you heard of Deborah Mae Helmick? And that's when we realized, oh, my gosh. Because they wondered if he had also taken her. And that confirmed it. And he gave directions, just like he had given directions to Sherry's body. He gave me directions to that little girl's body. And then in the. And then that was the last phone call. And then as he wrapped up that phone call, he said, dawn, did you know that it's God's will that you join Sherry? And he said, it's just a matter of time this month, next month, this year, next year, but you can be sure that I will get you to. And he always called Sherry, Sherry Fay, and my name is Dawn Elizabeth. And he said, dawn, E, your time is near. And he hung up the phone. And I remember thinking, am I going to have to live the rest of my life in fear of that man getting me to? Because I know he can. And how long are these people going to stay in our house and protect us? They're going to have to go back to their lives. They're not going to be here forever. That was the most helpless feeling of just thinking, this is never going to end. And so it was. It was then that forensic evidence was found on Sherry's letter. So if you write like, a grocery list on a tablet and you tear off that page, there's an imprint of your grocery list on the next page. Well, that's what happened with Sherry's letter. There was a phone number on the page. One digit was missing. So they dialed every possible number and ended up speaking with a family that was out of town. And they were in Alabama visiting their son. And Sherry's killer was house sitting for them. And they were able to go to their home, arrest him. Wow. And take him to jail.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Was this family related to the killer?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

He was kind of a handyman, an electrician. He did odd jobs for them. And so he was just house sitting for them. And when they. And they didn't know what was going on because they were in Alabama. And so the minute that they said, there is a man staying at her home, and they sent. They showed the family a drawing, and they said, that is Larry Bell. He is at our home. And he was arrested.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

How did you feel when you heard that a man had been arrested?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

We were so relieved, but it was hard to imagine it was actually him. And so Sheriff Metz came to the house and told my mom and. And me that we needed to go to the jail, that they had him, but we needed to identify his voice as that of the caller. And so we just got in the car, just got in the back of the. Of the sheriff's car and went to the jail. Larry Jean Bell is. What's his name?

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Okay. And what. What did he look like?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

He was in his 40s. He was kind of disheveled looking, had a beard, messy hair, kind of balding, squinty little eyes, a little bit overweight, Very, very insecure. Nothing like the man that I had been talking to on the phone. He was mild and meek and pitiful, Just a pitiful man. And so the minute he started talking, he just started saying, mumbling and not really making eye contact and saying, you know, I. The Larry Bell sitting here could not have done the things that they are saying that I did. He goes. And then he said, but there's an evil side of Larry Bell. But the Larry Bell you're looking at couldn't have. Couldn't have done these things. And it just got out of hand. He just started mumbling. And my mother immediately spoke up, and she was such an amazing woman and incredibly strong, and she just stopped him. And she said, I know you're the man that killed my daughter. She said, you killed my Sherry. And she said, I'm looking at you. Your voice is the voice that I can't stop hearing in my head, like a broken record. And she said, there is no doubt it's you. And she said, there's nothing you can say to make it better. You killed my daughter, so there's no reason that you could give me to make me understand. And then she said this. I will never forget it. She said, and I don't even hate you. And I pray God has mercy on your soul and I forgive you. And I remember the minute she said that, I just whipped my head at her like, are you crazy? He deserves no mercy. He deserves no kindness. This is over. And we walked out of the room when it was all said and done, and I said, mom, why did you say that to him? How could you say that to him? He didn't deserve it. And she was so kind. And she said she Said Dawn. The moment I looked at him, I realized that he is another mother's son. And I felt mercy for his mother. And I just remember thinking, boy, that is some kind of mercy that I don't get that. That is just way beyond a 21 year old's ability to grasp. But. And later she said, she said, honey, all I can tell you is my heart was so, so full of pain. She said it was like a physical ache. It was a physical pain. To lose your child is the deepest grief imaginable. And she said, she said, I just believe that God in his kindness knew there was no room for unforgiveness. My heart was so full of pain. And she said, he just settled it then and there for me. She said, I never hated him. And I still marvel at that. That is just an amazing grace that so goes beyond a human heart capacity to even feel mercy for another one.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Did you hate him or did you feel mercy too? I mean, where did you stand on that?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

I honestly did not feel one ounce of mercy for him in that room. Looking at him, I was absolutely disgusted. I was. I didn't feel hatred, but I did feel just. I am so done with you. I'm. You're. You nauseate me. You make me sick. You killed. I mean, I didn't say any of this, but I'm thinking all of this. You killed my sister and all you can worry about is yourself. And you're sitting there saying, do you know what they're going to do to me? And I, I just was so disgusted with him. He was, he was. And he was not strong. And I had catered to this person and been so kind and so merciful and he was so in charge over the phone when in reality he was this small, pathetic coward of a man. And, and that's how I felt when I looked at him. And all I could say was, yes, you are the man that I spoke to on the phone. This is the voice of the caller. I was not merciful like my mother at that time. Yeah, I was angry that my family was not okay. I was angry that our lives have been turned upside down. And I remember saying to my mom, mom, our lives are shattered, aren't they? And I remember her standing there for a long time and going, I don't know, honey, I just don't know. And that's how we were, you know, because how do you just get back to life when something like this has happened to your family? And it wasn't until four years later that he had had written Me a letter from death row and point blank asked me if I would forgive him. And in that letter, he said that he never confessed. But in that letter, it was crazy and it was strange and a lot of it didn't make any sense, but he said that he had asked God to forgive him for the things he had done, and would my family and I forgive him as well. And that was 1989. And it wasn't until 1991 that I came to the place of responding. I thought, he doesn't deserve to hear from me. I don't hate him. I think I'm doing pretty good, you know, but I was. But I. You know, there's that saying that says you're either bitter or better. I wasn't bitter. I just was kind of like he does. He's not going to get to hear back from me. He doesn't get that privilege. But my mother's example was so strong and so beautiful and. And so two years after getting that letter, 1991, I finally came to the place of realizing that, that forgiveness is a choice. And that was a life changing moment for me because I'm not angry anymore. I'm definitely not bitter. And just as Sherry came to peace with her death, so have I. And I think we have. I think we all have those things in our lives. Like, I would have never chosen this to happen to my sister, to my family. Given a choice, I would have said, no, thank you, please let this not happen to us. But we all have them. Every single person listening to this podcast has had them. You've had them, I've had them. We're going to have circumstances that we would never choose, but I believe that we always have a choice with how we respond to them. And I want to choose well. Sherry chose beautifully. She chose courage. I want to choose well, and I want to choose kindness. Sherry's death could have destroyed our lives. It could have defined us. I mean, we could have stayed stuck back in 1985 and been the victims of a violent crime, and that's all we could have ever been. Or we have the choice to allow the circumstances that have happened to develop us into better people. People that have a purpose, that have a passion for life to take. Okay, this is what has happened. Now what am I going to do with it? And this is the life that I've been given. Just as Sherry faced her disease and she faced her death well, I want to. I want to face my life well. And if I've learned anything is that every single day is a Gift. And we don't know that we are going to have tomorrow, but we have this very day. And I want to live it well. I want to live a life that, for somebody listening, that feels hopeless to know there's no such thing as hopeless. There is always hope. And so I want to be a person that speaks hope to people and to choose well with the life that we've been given, because it really is a gift.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Dawn, I think that is so beautiful. I think that's such a wonderful message. And I think that there's a lot of people out there who will hear this and it will really resonate for them. They'll be like, yes, I do understand the value of forgiveness. I do understand the value in making a decision about how I feel, how I want to live, not letting my past dictate my present and my future. But I think for a lot of people, they don't have that kind of control over, well, I guess their brains. You know, personally, if I'm feeling wronged about something, I can't just decide to turn off the anger or turn off the hurt. It just sort of. It's on autopilot. It just sort of comes out. And I'm wondering what allowed you to make that decision about how you were gonna live and what allowed you to forgive?

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Well, So I was 21 years old when this happened. I am now 60 years old. I just had the big birthday.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Happy birthday.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

And so thank you. It was fantastic. But it's been a process and it's been a journey. Julian. I just didn't overnight come to this mindset. It has been a journey of struggle and anger and frustration and forgiveness, and then taking back the forgiveness and being unforgiving again and then choosing forgiveness again. And. And, you know, I. For a long time, I mean, you know, hard life still happened. I mean, I was married, my husband left. I raised my children as a single mother. Twenty years ago, my precious mother died of ovarian cancer. Like life is. It's not just one moment, but I think each of those. Those times like that, they become defining moments. They can and they help us determine, okay, are we still going to be strong? And I remember when I was a young mom with a one year old and a four year old and just thinking, how did I get here? I can't. I never envisioned being a single mom. And yet I kind of felt in limbo. You know, I think sometimes we get stuck and I just felt stuck. I was like, I don't know how to live this life. And I kept Waiting, I thought, well, if this will happen and this will happen, then life will get livable. And I finally came to the realization my husband may never come back, we may never reconcile. And I have this very day. And what you see might be what you get. Now what are you going to do with it? And so I began to just go, okay, this day is a gift. It is a present. It's the present. And I have this very day to be the best mother I can be to my children, to the be the best daughter that I can be to my parents, to be the best sister that I can be to my, my brother, to be the best friend, to be the best singer, songwriter, speaker, whatever it is in my daily life, to be the person in the like. Right now I'm in a Zumba class and I'm the oldest one in the class. And you know, the young girls like, like this morning I went to Zumba and this young mom of a two year old said, I absolutely love coming in here because you are so funny and full of light. And I'm like, yay. Because that's really who I am. That's how I feel. I'm not this, this woman who lives under the shadow of a tragedy. Because there's more to life than what happened to us. For every single one of us. We don't have to allow what happened to us to define who we are. We get to have a say in that.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

I think that's such a good message. Well, dawn, this has been amazing. I think you have such a beautiful soul and such a special and, I don't know, infectious way of looking at the world. Well, I've learned a lot and I think a lot of people have too.

[Dawn Smith Jordan, Guest]

Thank you, Julian.

[Julian Morgans, Host of What It Was Like]

Just a little epilogue from me. Larry Bell was executed at the age of 46 on October 4, 1996. He chose to die by the electric chair instead of lethal injection, which is the way that most people are executed in the US These days. And reportedly he had no final words. And there's another part of this story that didn't make it into today's episode, but I think is pretty cool. And that's Dawn's 1986 crowning as Miss South Carolina. And that same year she was also the second runner up to Miss America. Dawn has also released multiple albums and she's written a few books, including some kids books. And you can learn more about her by visiting her site, dawnsmithjordan.com and don't forget to leave us a five star review on Apple and Spotify. And follow the show. Please don't just search for it every week like I do. I'm just, because I'm an idiot. I just like go to the search bar and I'm like, what's that show that I listen to literally every day? And I look it up and don't do that. Don't, don't do what I do. Just follow the show. Follow, follow this show. Lean in, Commit. We'll be eternally grateful. Today's episode was produced by Rachel Tuffery. It was mixed by Jimmy Saunders, who also did our theme music. Evie Atkins is our intern. Our cover art is by Naomi Lee Beveridge and this whole thing has, has been a super ill production.

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