Growing Up With My Cousin, Ted Bundy

Summary

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What It Was Like – "Growing Up With My Cousin, Ted Bundy"

Host: Julian Morgans
Guest: Edna Cal Martin (Ted Bundy’s cousin)
Date: April 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this darkly compelling episode, host Julian Morgans sits down with Edna Cal Martin, cousin of one of the most infamous serial killers in American history, Ted Bundy. Offering an intimate, first-hand look into Bundy’s early life, Edna shares vivid personal memories—childhood anecdotes, unsettling moments as a young adult, and chilling realizations as Bundy’s crimes unfolded. The conversation explores the complexity of evil, the trauma inflicted on family members of criminals, and the scars left on survivors and loved ones.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Ties and Early Memories

• Ted’s Arrival in Washington:
  • Ted and his mother, Louise, moved from Philadelphia to Tacoma, Washington, after Louise became a single mother (05:46).
  • Edna’s father encouraged the move to offer Louise a fresh start.
• Childhood Interactions:
  • Ted was five years older than Edna and mainly played with her brother, John, but was “always a sweetheart to the little kids, or at least to me” (07:12).
  • One memory: After being sprayed by a water skier, Ted became uncharacteristically angry, a reaction described as "over the top" by Edna’s brother (07:54).
  • Quote: “He got really angry. That was something that really stood out in my brother's memory, was how upset he got and how angry, and seemed to be over the top about that.” — Edna Cal Martin (08:10)

2. Young Adulthood — The Ted No One Suspected

• Growing Closer in College:
  • Edna transferred to the University of Washington, living near Ted’s boarding house.
  • She recalls feeling safer having Ted nearby: “I thought, okay, if I need anything, my cousin Ted is just basically five blocks from me. So this is great. I'm safe because he's there.” (09:30)
  • Ted was well-liked, polished, and ambitious—seen as a rising political star and involved in crime prevention (09:51).
  • Quote: “He wrote a pamphlet on rape prevention for women.” — Edna Cal Martin (10:08)
• Early Red Flags:
  • At a casual dinner, Edna observes Ted’s “jaw was clenched and his blue eyes were totally black. And he looked. I didn't even recognize him. He looked like a completely different person.” (11:54)
  • She later learned such “black eyes” are noted by both survivors and psychological experts as a sign of predatory intent (13:00).
  • Quote: “He was someplace else… and then he was fine, and I didn't really think anything of it, but he left almost immediately.” — Edna Cal Martin (13:26)

3. The Mask Slips — Worsening Behavior and Growing Unease

• Ted’s Privacy and Secretiveness:
  • Edna describes Ted refusing to let her (or even her brother) into his room, despite their closeness, and recalls seeing expensive items he shouldn’t have been able to afford (15:08).
  • Theories arose about Bundy stealing or keeping “trophies” from his crimes.
• Social Encounters and Manipulation:
  • On nights out, Edna felt used as a “prop” so Ted could scan dance floors, describing his detachment and intense focus on observing women (17:43).
  • Quote: “He’s just standing there… just scanning back and forth across the dance floor. Not paying attention to me at all.” — Edna Cal Martin (17:46)
• Animals Reacting to Ted:
  • Edna recounts a friend’s dog, Jeffy, exploding in rage at Ted upon entry, despite previous amicable encounters (19:00).
  • This incident happened after Bundy’s first documented attacks.

4. The Gradual Unfolding of Ted’s Crimes

• Rising Fear Among Women:
  • Edna and her friends became increasingly worried as attacks and disappearances of women around the University of Washington increased, often in their immediate vicinity (21:57).
  • Even after Bundy matched police sketches and witnesses mentioned a “Ted” driving a tan VW bug, Edna and her circle refused to believe he could be involved (24:51).
  • Quote: “It never in our wildest dreams did we think that it was our Ted.” — Edna Cal Martin (25:38)
• Denial and Trauma:
  • Edna describes the mental block preventing her from believing Bundy was capable: “He was this successful guy doing incredible things… It was just not our Ted.” (25:58)
  • Serial killer as a term didn’t exist at the time; the realization came only later.

5. Ted’s Arrest and the First Admission to Self

• Arrest in Utah and Family’s Denial:
  • When Bundy was arrested for kidnapping in Utah, Edna’s world was “absolutely blown away” (31:02).
  • Her first instinct: “This must be a mistake. We prayed that it had to be a mistake.” (33:16)
• Final Dinner and Chilling Realization:
  • After Bundy’s release on bail, Edna picks him up for dinner. At a group table when someone asks his last name, “He said it like he was really proud. And I didn’t expect him to answer that way.” (34:08)
  • Driving alone with him afterward, Edna bluntly asks, "Ted, did you… abduct and kill those girls?" He calmly denies it, insisting it's a mistake (36:50).
• Moment of Realization:
  • Later, Edna witnesses Ted at the university in a messianic, bizarre trance, turning in a crowd, arms out, chanting “I’m Ted Bundy.” (41:42)
  • Quote: “That's when I… had chills go through me… There’s a lot more to him than I think I know.” — Edna Cal Martin (43:00)
  • Afterwards in the car, “he’s looking back at me and he’s smiling and I go, oh, my God, he did it.” (45:05)
  • “I literally planned that I was going to crash my car if he made a move.” (45:21)

6. The Aftermath: Escape, Media Frenzy & Family Fallout

• Bundy’s Escapes & Communication
  • After a failed and then a successful jail escape, Ted called Edna and her brother seeking advice, tipping his intent to escape and even querying them on which states had the harshest death penalties—then fled to Florida (49:48).
  • Quote: “What would you think if I escaped?” — Ted Bundy (49:55)
• Mother’s (Louise Bundy) Suffering:
  • “I think she wanted to still believe in him… she was the last one to finally… accept that he was who he was. But she was holding out hope.” (54:50)
• Family Trauma:
  • The Bundy family was “shattered… left a swath of destruction,” and Edna reflects on the lasting impact not just on victims’ families, but on their own (55:12).
  • Quote: “We’re real people. We have lives, you know, and we were also devastated and traumatized by what he did.” (56:23)
• Florida Murders & Execution:
  • Bundy’s violence escalated quickly in Florida; his trial became a media circus, and he was executed in 1989.
  • Edna shares how the spectacle further traumatized the family and recalls the emotional burden of trying to reconcile the Ted she knew with his monstrous acts (63:28).
  • Quote: “On one hand, I completely understand… But on the other hand, it was hard not to think about the guy that I used to know.” (63:35)
• Letters from Ted:
  • Edna confronted Ted in letters, but he continued to deny murders to her, citing religious references and refusing to admit guilt, even as he confessed to police at the very end (60:47, 61:00).

7. Reflections & Lessons Learned

• The Nature of Evil:
  • Edna stresses the importance of trusting your instincts: “It's important to trust your gut… Even though I didn't pick up on it, there still were some signals that I ignored.” (70:50)
  • She doesn’t believe most people are like Bundy, but advises vigilance without succumbing to fear.
• Nature vs. Nurture Debate:
  • Edna recounts unsettling early behaviors from Bundy’s childhood (e.g., arranging knives), questions around his paternity, and mental health diagnoses, but admits, “That’s the million dollar question. I wish I had an answer for you, Julian.” (72:13, 73:21)
  • Quote: “What makes it so that those mental issues turn into such violent and viciously mean crimes…? That's just unbelievably awful.” (73:50)
• Public Fascination and Suffering’s Ripple Effect:
  • Edna laments society’s continued obsession with Bundy and true crime, describing the ongoing pain for countless families, including her own (74:01, 75:48).
  • Quote: “He would pop up, and I would go, damn. Damn, Ted. Go away… it would just shock me.” (75:58)

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Memorable Quotes by Timestamps

• On discovering Bundy’s true nature:
  “He’s looking back at me and he’s smiling and I go, oh my God, he did it.” – Edna Cal Martin (45:09)
• The mask Bundy wore:
  “He wrote a pamphlet on rape prevention for women.” – Edna Cal Martin (10:08)
• On ignoring red flags:
  “It's important to trust your gut. Even though I didn't pick up on it, there still were some signals that I ignored.” – Edna Cal Martin (70:50)
• Denial and realization:
  “It never in our wildest dreams did we think that it was our Ted.” – Edna Cal Martin (25:38)
• On the family’s trauma:
  “We don't compare ourselves to the victims' levels, but it was pretty horrible what we went through.” – Edna Cal Martin (56:23)

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• Ted as a Child/Move to Washington: 05:46–07:02
• Early Red Flags: 11:54–13:15
• Social Interactions in College: 17:06–19:00
• Dog’s Violent Reaction & Timeline of Attacks: 19:00–22:29
• Growing Suspicion, Denial, and Bundy’s Arrest: 24:51–36:50
• Ultimate Realization at the University: 41:42–45:08
• Reflections on Bundy's Escape: 49:48–54:45
• Family Impact and Execution Aftermath: 54:50–66:35
• Nature of Evil and Ted’s Origins: 70:50–73:50

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Final Reflections

Edna offers rare personal insight into the world behind the tabloid headlines—a perspective marked by staggering betrayal, ongoing trauma, and the complexities of loving someone capable of enormous evil. Her message is clear: trust your instincts, acknowledge evil’s existence but don’t let it consume life’s hope, and remember that devastation from crime spreads in ripples far wider than the headlines ever reveal.

Further Reading/Viewing:

• Edna’s book: Dark Tide: Growing Up with Ted Bundy (2024)
• Documentary: Love Ted Bundy (Released 2026)

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For more on the regional history of serial killers and discussion on possible environmental influences, check the subscriber-only episode referenced at the end.

Transcript

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[Edna Cal Martin]

Subaru. So there's kind of a crowd there and they're milling around and the crowd parts just a little bit and I go, oh my God, it's Ted. And he's standing there in the middle of all these people with his his arms out like he's some kind of a messiah. And he's slowly rotating, just he's kind of got his eyes closed and he's going I'm Ted Bundy over and over again as he's turning around and then I grab him and I haul him out of that crowd and throw him in my car. We're not talking, and I turn my head and I look at him and he's looking back at me and he's smiling and I go, oh, my God, he did it. That's when I. It hit me that this thing that's next to me is possibly one of the most dangerous people in America.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, I'm Julian Morgans, and you're listening to what It Was like, the show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. So a few weeks ago, we shared a story from a woman who survived an encounter with Ted Bundy. And the response was huge. So today we're going to return to Bundy, but we're going further back. This episode is going to look at his childhood, his school years and into his 20s. And my guest is no one other than Ted Bundy's cousin, Edna Cal Martin. So back in the 1950s, Edna was growing up in Washington state in a town called Tacoma when her aunt moved in with a young boy. And that young boy was Ted Bundy. Edna and Ted, they grew up together, and later they became really close in college, and they stayed in each other's lives right into the 1970s, right into when Ted began killing women. So you're not going to hear some distant account. Edna was right in the middle of this story. They were good friends. And you're actually going to hear how she went out to dinner with Ted just a few nights after he'd killed a woman nearby. But what I found really unsettling about this story is just how normal Ted sounds. You know, Edna describes these situations, these scenes, and he doesn't just sound normal, but he sounds very smart. He's very charming. Everyone liked him. He wasn't just some creepy outsider. And for me, that raises the question, what happened? How did Ted Bundy come to be? And we. And we're actually going to explore that question in this week's subscriber only episode. If you're not a subscriber, why not? And one possible theory about Ted is chemical poisoning. We'll dive into that in our subscriber episode. But for now, let's hear about what it was like being Ted Bundy's cousin. And here is Edna Cal Martin to tell us the story. Hey, Edna, welcome to the show.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Thank you. Happy to be here.

[Julian Morgans]

I'm thrilled you're here. I really am. I've been looking forward to this. Okay, so I've been reading your book, and I understand you grew up in a very creative household. Your dad was a musician. And then Ted Bundy's mother, Louise, came to stay with a young Ted. Can you, can you tell me a little bit about your memories of that period?

[Edna Cal Martin]

So my dad was the youngest of seven kids, and his very oldest sibling was Louise's dad. And Louise was back in the Philadelphia area and she had a baby out of wedlock. That was really considered a much more difficult time for an unwed mother. So my father urged her to leave Philadelphia with her little boy, who was four at that time, and she called him Teddy, and to come out to the Pacific Northwest where my parents lived and come stay with them and she could start a whole new story there. And that's what they did. It was a big production for her to come across the country with a four year old. So when they arrived, I wasn't quite born yet. I was born the following year. But they were in our house until she found a stable environment and met a guy and got married. And that would have been Johnny Bundy.

[Julian Morgans]

And Johnny Bundy gave his name to a young Ted.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yes, yes. And then it wasn't long after that that they had four more kids. They were a really nice family. And that's what's so perplexing about this, is where did all this happen and how did this happen with Ted? Nobody really has an answer about that.

[Julian Morgans]

Maybe you could illustrate your childhood a bit by taking me through a couple of memories, just a couple of vignettes that you might have shared with Ted.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Well, since he was five years older than I was, so he kind of hung out with my brother more. You know, he was 10, I was five. But as he got older, the thing about Ted, which again goes against what you would expect about him, was that he was always a sweetheart to the little kids, or at least to me. He and my brother would hang out and they'd go in his room and who knows, read comic books or whatever it was, or they'd go out in the boat together. And there was one time when John and Ted were out in the rowboat and they were out in the middle of the bay. There was a boat that was heading towards them while they were in the rowboat. And it was pulling a water skier, one of the girls from the bay that my brother kind of had a thing for, and she cuts back and throws a huge spray that just drenches them. Now, this is the summertime and it's warm and my brother thinks that's the ultimate compliment to be drenched. And Ted is absolutely freaked out. You know, he just can't believe that somebody did that to him. And he got really angry. That was something that really stood out in my brother's memory, was how upset he got and how angry and seemed to be over the top about that.

[Julian Morgans]

What was the first ever sort of like, concerning moment? I mean, in some ways, these sound like very positive happy memories.

[Edna Cal Martin]

These are positive, happy memories. And now I'm much older, so I transferred to start my junior year at the University of Washington. And that's when things started getting interesting, because my girlfriend Margie and I got an apartment just a short few blocks from the campus of the University of Washington. And even better, just a few blocks from where Ted lived, he had a boarding house. And when he wasn't there, he was with his girlfriend Liz. But when he was in his boarding house, it literally would take him maybe five, six minutes to walk to my place. And so we really started to become good friends there at that time and saw a lot of each other. And here's the irony of that whole situation was that I was feeling more confident knowing he was close by. I thought, okay, if I need anything, my cousin Ted is just basically five blocks from me. So this is great. I'm safe because he's there. And my parents felt safe because he was just close by.

[Podcast Hosts (Various)]

Wow.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, let's. That sentence. No one has put that sentence together in their head for a long time. You know, I'm safe because Ted Bundy is just around the corner.

[Edna Cal Martin]

It's kind of a weird thing to say, but it was true. I really felt great that he was there. So we really looked up to him because he had graduated from University of Washington and he was a rising star in politics. He was also working on the Seattle Crime Commission at that time. And this kind of gives me creeps thinking about this now, but he was really working on putting together pamphlets to address violence against women and also rape prevention. He wrote a. Yeah, he wrote a pamphlet on rape prevention for women.

[Julian Morgans]

God, that's so bizarre.

[Edna Cal Martin]

It's so bizarre. So when he would stop by our apartment, he would tell us stories about all these things. And he had so many stories to tell. So we just were kind of awestruck by him. And we would just be looking at him and say, well, this must be what it's like five years from now when you actually get a job and do something that's worthwhile. And he would walk in with his polished loafers pressed, pants button down, Collar. He'd have a sweater draped across his shoulders and tied. The arms would be tied around the front and his hair was short. I was on the second story apartment and look down to the street and sometimes see that he'd pulled up in his little brown tan VW that since has become famous for not good reasons. And we would be excited because one time he showed up and he had a bag of groceries with him and a bottle of wine. So he was really welcomed into the. To our house at that time, our apartment, and just Margie and I were there. Margie was my roommate. And so we cooked dinner and had lots of rock and roll music on at the time. So Steely Dan would be playing. And then I was a huge Led Zeppelin fan too. But one of the songs that came on was kind of low. And I turned around to look at Ted, and Ted and Margie were kind of dancing. And she was in his arms with her head leaned on his shoulder and I thought, oh, that's nice. And then I looked at him and I thought I was like, whoa. Because he was looking down at the top of her head. And he had this really mean look on his face and his jaw was clenched and his blue eyes were totally black. And he looked. I didn't even recognize him. He looked like a completely different person. And it freaked me out. And I thought something was wrong with him. And I kind of yelled at him so I could get above the music and said, hey, Ted. Ted, are you okay? And then finally I took the arm off the record, the stylus, and said, hey, Ted, what's going on? Are you okay? And he just kind of shook his head and snapped out of it. And then his million dollar smile came back and he says, oh, you know, I'm just fine. But it was his eyes that really freaked me out because they were so black. And.

[Julian Morgans]

Wow.

[Edna Cal Martin]

I found out since then from all the people I've talked to and forensic psychologists and things, when people get into that state of excitation and a lot of times these, you know, people who are thinking these evil thoughts, their pupils dilate. And so that's why it looks black like that. And he was someplace else. And at that time I just thought, well, that's weird. And then he was fine, and I didn't really think anything of it, but he left almost immediately after that. He said, you know what? I gotta go. And it was so abrupt that Margie and I kind of looked at each other and went, oh, okay, well, bye.

[Julian Morgans]

After he went, did you tell Margie what You'd seen.

[Edna Cal Martin]

You know, I didn't. I just. I just kind of shrugged my shoulders and thought, okay, you know, and she doesn't. She doesn't remember that because she didn't really see it.

[Julian Morgans]

It's interesting that you bring this up, because on this show, about a month ago, I spoke to a woman who had survived an attack with Ted Bundy.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Oh, really?

[Julian Morgans]

And she described looking at his face, and she said that her quote was, this guy isn't even human. And she talked about his black eyes.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Oh, really?

[Julian Morgans]

It's so interesting that you're describing exactly, you know, different words, different. You're a different person, different time, different context. What you're saying is very similar.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Oh, gosh, that gives me chills. I mean, I'm actually having chills right now thinking about that poor woman. And she was actually attacked by him.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, he was. He was pretty young at the time. This was 1967. This was years before his sort of first serial homicide was logged. But the facial expression, that's the through line. So interesting. Okay, so just keep taking me through these memories. What else sticks to you?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Well, just during that same time period, as I mentioned to you, he would occasionally drop by. And one time I dropped by his place on my way someplace. I thought, okay, I'll drop by and see him. And. And I knocked on his door, and he opened the door, but only far enough so he could poke his head out. And I said, hey, can I come in and see you? Because I thought, well, he comes to my place, you know, I mean, and back then, of course, we did not have cell phones, so a lot of people did just drop by. That was really a normal thing. And I stopped in, and he said, no, that was not a good time. I don't want you to come in here. And he didn't really explain why, but he says, I just don't want you to see it. And I thought, well, maybe it's a mess. I said, well, if it's a mess, I don't care. I mean, we're all messy, you know? But he said, no, no, I don't want you to see this. He said, just give me a minute. And he closed the door. And then a few minutes later, he came out and he says, why don't we go someplace? And I don't remember where we ended up going, but he wouldn't let me in his place. And my brother said it was kind of the same way with him, too. Although he did get a peek inside one time, and Ted wouldn't let My brother in, and they were like best buddies, which is so weird. But John caught sight of stacked up amps against the wall and a bunch of snow skis. And some of those snow skis were really expensive brands. And so John and I, when we were talking about this years and years later and looking back after he'd gotten arrested, wondering if Ted was getting into burglarizing and stealing things because he. He didn't think Ted made that much money to have those quality amps and all those skis. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Or it wouldn't surprise me.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yeah. I mean, the other theory, too, is that he also brought home trophies.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Edna Cal Martin]

So I'm glad I didn't see those if that's what the case was.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. Did your opinion of him start to evolve during this period?

[Edna Cal Martin]

He was a buddy of mine. I just. I didn't see any signs that other than those few things that were not indicators at the time, they were, in retrospect, looking back, you started going, well, what about that? What about that? But no, I mean, because I was perfectly comfortable going off with him by myself. You know, he would take me dancing. We went dancing one time at this club, and I didn't realize until later when I started hearing about what he was doing, is that I was just a prop for him.

[Julian Morgans]

In what way?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Well, so we got there, and I love to dance. I still do. And so I'm dancing and he's not really dancing. He's just standing there sort of rocking back and forth and scanning back and forth across the dance floor. Now people are gyrating and dancing all over. There's couples, there's girls dancing with girls, girls dancing with their guys. There's just lots and lots of activity going along, and he's not paying attention to me at all. And I'm trying to get his attention. I'm waving my hands in front of his face, but again, he's got his jaw clenched and he just looks really serious, looking around the room back and forth. And I'm dancing around him and trying to get his attention, and he would momentarily snap out of it, look out at me and smile, but then immediately go back into that mode. And I thought this was the weirdest thing. I'm not going dancing with him anymore. And then when I look back on it, I think he was just checking out, you know, the women. And not probably for good reasons.

[Julian Morgans]

No, it sounds like he was just sort of lost in some fantasy.

[Edna Cal Martin]

He was intense. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Did you ever see him interact with animals?

[Edna Cal Martin]

So I had graduated and I moved into A house with two other girls. And one of the girls had a dog. His name was Jeffy. And Ted had been over a couple of times, and there had been no problems. I mean, Jeffy was a great watchdog. He was the kind of dog that would let you know if somebody was coming up the walkway to the house. And this time we heard him barking. And we went and we looked out, and sure enough, it was Ted's VW Bug out there. And so my roommate and I were home, and we opened the door to Ted, and Jeffy went crazy. I'd never seen him like that before or since. And he started lunging at Ted, and his. The hair on the back of his, you know, neck was standing up straight. Jeffy's teeth were bared, and he was. He was trying to get it at Ted, and he was attacking Ted's feet, biting at his feet and his pant cuffs. And it took two of us to pull him off Ted's feet. My roommate was able to haul him off and take him into the bathroom and lock the door there. And poor Jeffy was throwing himself against the door. Just loud bang, bang and yelping and barking. We were just like, what is going on? And we were apologizing to Ted about this, but it wasn't the first time that they'd met. We could not figure out what was going on. This would have been the summer of 1975. So if we back up, starting in January, that's when the first attack happened. And in the U District, the University district. So things had started to happen in our area. And the first girl that was attacked was Karen Sparks. And all Ted had to do was leave his place, walk by the front door of my apartment building and around the corner, and that's where she lived. And he attacked her. And I think he got interrupted and left her for dead. But she survived, thank God. But she's one of the only ones that survived. And we heard a rumor that somebody had gotten attacked. We didn't know where. I had no idea that it was just around the block from me. I mean, it would have literally taken me 30 seconds to walk there. I was working in a restaurant as a server, and we were all starting to get scared, we young women, to walk home at night after our shifts because we'd heard rumors that there had been an attack, but we didn't know where it had happened and what had happened.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so when you say rumors, you mean it wasn't published in any of the papers? It wasn't like in the sort of School notice board?

[Edna Cal Martin]

No, I don't remember any alerts coming out to let us know that somebody had been attacked Right in our neighborhood. It would have been nice to have known. I mean, we heard something from other people. It was just. I heard it from some other girls that something had happened. So we started teaming up, and then we wouldn't walk home without one of the guys from the restaurant, at least one, if not two, to escort us back to our apartment.

[Julian Morgans]

So your friend's dog reacting really strangely to Ted. In some ways, that sort of announced Ted's graduation into violence. Is that kind of how you see it?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Well, but he had already committed quite a few acts of violence, unbeknownst to us, by the time that Jeffie tried to attack him. So this was in June or July of that year. And we back up to January when he attacked Karen Sparks across the street. Then in February, one of our mutual friends disappears. Linda Ann Healy. And this is from her basement apartment, which was over just a block or so from Ted's girlfriend's house. And that really threw us into a panic because it was somebody we knew. And my girlfriend, who was a really good friend of hers, and another girl that I knew were good friends of hers. And they were. I mean, they were really scared and worried because she would never have done anything like just disappeared. And then it went on for months that there was no word of her. So we were very anxious about that. And then almost every month, another girl disappeared. So it started to fill the papers with reports of this, and they weren't connecting them yet, but they were starting to wonder what was going on. Then a sorority girl, Georgian Hawkins. Two or three nights after I had dinner with Ted, she disappeared just on campus from one of the sororities. And this still isn't caught up to when Jeffie attacked him. And then in July that year, two girls in the same day disappeared from a popular spot on Lake Sammamish, which is east of Seattle. And then that. That was it. We were all absolutely terrified. And then they had a lot more information than. Because there were witnesses that had seen this guy walking around with a cast. And he was asking. Going up to girls, young women, and asking them to help him with a little. Get a little sailboat up onto the top of his car. And most people turned him down, but a few nice young women said, sure, I'll help you. And, you know, the nicest. The nicest people are the people that were his victims during that time, which just boggles my mind how evil he could have been to do that. And of course, they started getting reports back from people who were interviewed after these girls disappeared. And they had a name. They. They had a name of Ted. And some people saw the car and saw that it was a, you know, sort of a tan VW bug. And we're going, ted and a van, you know, a tan VW bug. What a coincidence. And we felt sorry for him, if you can believe it, that he was kind of being associated with this, because it never in our wildest dreams did we think that it was our Ted.

[Julian Morgans]

Why? What was the block, the mental block for you?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Because we never saw or put together anything that would have indicated that he was this successful guy who was doing all these incredible things, and he had plans in the future. I mean, it was just not our Ted. It had to be somebody else. And they had some composite drawings that showed up, and we didn't think it looked like him. In fact, he came over, he showed up one afternoon, and it must have been like a Friday because Don, my boyfriend at the time, had come up with spending the weekend. And Don was horrified, too, and felt sorry for him. But we had the paper right there, and. And so when Ted arrives, he takes the paper and shoves it in his face and said, hey, Ted, this looks just like you. And he was. Ha ha ha. Just joking. What? And the tan V Dub bug was parked right in front of our house. And Ted just completely rolled with it. He goes, yeah, I know. Isn't that crazy? You know, And. And I've. I've. The. The police have interviewed me. And we went, oh. Oh, my gosh. We felt like, oh, what a terrible thing that he had to go through. I mean, we were sympathetic at that time, but we. You know, you have these little niggling feelings, like, you know, why? Why? Boy, it sure is a coincidence. I mean, we couldn't help but think those thoughts, but we never in our wildest dreams thought that he could be this evil person that was doing this.

[Julian Morgans]

At that time, had you heard the phrase serial killer?

[Edna Cal Martin]

No, not yet. I don't think that phrase existed quite yet, but I believe it became a term because of him. But not till just a little bit later, when they started putting things together, did that probably come out. And we were awful. I mean, there is even a time when we asked him about it, and. And he was very. He acted very sympathetic, like, oh, this is terrible. I hope they get the guy that did this. And isn't it awful? And, I don't know. He loved being the center of attention I began to understand. I think this was really playing into that desire to be a focal point.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Okay, so what happened next in the timeline?

[Edna Cal Martin]

So after he abducted and killed those two girls in Lake Sammamish, and we found out later that they were buried in a place where several others were buried, he got accepted to law school in Utah. He was leaving, I think, in August of 75. And so we were saying goodbye to Ted and wishing him good luck. He even got, you know, so many people believed in him. He got recommendations from his professors. He had gotten a letter of recommendation from the governor of our state, Dan Evans. That shows you who all believed in him and how much he had going for him as a different way he could have gone and he didn't. So he was off to Utah. He left his girlfriend and started a new chapter there. We didn't really think about it, but the abductions stopped after he left. Looking back,

[Julian Morgans]

so many red flags that for a range of reasons got ignored.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yeah, I think his girlfriend was starting to suspect some things were off because she was around him a lot more. The attacks stopped in Washington, but they started up in Utah. So back in those days, in the mid-70s, one police jurisdiction, there was no way to share information across state lines like there is now. So we didn't find out about some of these things for quite a while. And DNA was, you know, forensics in that department was such a new thing. I talked to a DNA expert who attended one of my presentations, and he worked in a lab, and he said that if Ted existed now and tried to do what he did, he would not have gotten away anywhere near as long as he did because there was lots of DNA evidence, but they just didn't know how to process it. And he wasn't careful like they are now.

[Julian Morgans]

So what was the first indication you received that women were disappearing in Utah?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Articles did start appearing in the paper, but it wasn't for quite a while. I took off. Right after he took off, I went up and worked in Alaska for the Alaska king crab season.

[Julian Morgans]

Great adventure on a ship.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yes. I got a phone call, and it wasn't really a phone call because on the bridge of a ship, it's a ship to shore call. And so they take me up to the bridge. I thought, this is weird. Your first thought is, oh, God, something's happened to somebody I care about. You know, my parents or. And I get up there and it's my brother on the phone. And, you know, so I'm just like, oh, God, what's going on? Are you okay? Is everybody okay? And we talk for a few minutes, and then we talk about the disappearances and. And that Ted has been arrested for a kidnapping in Utah. And I was just like, oh, my. And that they suspect he might be responsible for the abductions and disappearances because they hadn't found the girls yet in Washington state. And I just remember absolutely freaking out, because here he is. He's not only my cousin, but he was my buddy, and I really looked up to him. And I remember just being so blown away that my whole world tilted because everything that I thought would have been true about knowing somebody possibly could be wrong. And how could I ever trust anybody again if I completely couldn't trust Ted? And, I mean, the ship was so loud with all the machinery going. I ran outside and ran down the whole length of the ship, and I was just screaming like, this can't be true. I mean, I was. I knew nobody could hear me because the ship was so loud. I just had to scream. And then I had to go back to work. And so after that, of course, I started getting a lot of letters from my brother, from my parents, going, this is. This is bizarre. This must be a huge. We all thought it had to be a mistake. We prayed that it had to be a mistake.

[Julian Morgans]

If you had to guess, had to lay a fairly significant wager at that point, you know, would you have bet the farm that it was a mistake, or did you have some. Some doubts?

[Edna Cal Martin]

I was still on the side of it was a mistake. Wrong place, wrong time. But he couldn't possibly have been responsible for abducting all those young women. I mean, that would be too horrible to accept at that point. And then not long after that, I did get a call from Detective Keppel. I wish I could help, but this is not Ted. He couldn't have possibly done this. It's a mistake. That's where I was when I came back from Alaska

[Julian Morgans]

in this state of denial, hopeful denial.

[Edna Cal Martin]

So all I could think about when I was returning from Alaska was, okay, I was kind of mad at my boyfriend because he didn't write me enough. So that was my first order of business, was to go give him hell, which I did.

[Julian Morgans]

Good.

[Edna Cal Martin]

The second thing I wanted was Ted was out on bail. This was in December of 75, and he was out on bail. And. And I wanted to hear it from Ted. I wanted him to put me at ease. He didn't do it, and that's what I wanted. So we got in touch with each other. He actually tracked me down and he said, let's get together today. I can do it today. And I said, okay, let's do it. I was going to meet up with some of my ex work buddies. And I said, well, I can pick you up on the way if you don't mind eating with some other people and then we can spend some time together. And afterwards, he said, no, that would be great. But anyway, I pick him up. There's about eight of us, and we're sitting at a round table, and we just practically all the way through the meal, a guy across the table says, okay, well, Ted, what is your last name? And I remember just having this sinking feeling going, oh, no. Because his name was really in the paper. And the fact that he was being suspected of the disappearances up in Washington was big news. And then I hear Ted, you know, to my right, he goes, oh, I'm Ted. I'm Ted Bundy. And he said it like he was really proud. And I didn't expect him to answer that way. I thought that he would be really bummed. And the guy that asked him who he was looked like. When he said Ted Bundy looked like he was a rock star, he acted like he was, you know, Mick Jagger or something. You know, I was just. And then I was really shocked by that response. The young woman that was sitting next to him kind of leaned away like, oh, my God. You have to understand that during that time, we were really freaked out. I mean, as women, none of us were walking by ourselves. Everybody was locking the doors and shutting their windows. And in Seattle during that time, during the summer, and it would get warm and there was very little air conditioning, so we were all sweating, but we didn't want to leave our windows open at night because that's how he got into one or two places. And it bothered me so much that I just abruptly ended the conversation and said, hey, we gotta go. And stood up. And so he goes, oh, okay. And he follows me out, and we get into the car, and I'm going, oh, God, I got some mixed feelings here. I don't know what I think. And so we're driving, and I wanted to go to the store up right by campus and had him in the car with me. And while I'm driving up the hill, I'm turning to him and, you know, looking at him and said, so, Ted, did you. Did you kill those girls and abduct them and kill them? And, you know, and I. And it didn't occur to me that. What if he'd said yes? I mean, that naive young person there. And he immediately answered and said, oh, of course not. It's all a big mistake. I happen to be at the wrong place at the right time and we're going to get it all straightened out. Don't worry about it, Edna. And I remember feeling so relieved because I wanted to believe him.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Now if he'd said, yes, I did, and here I would been alone in the car with him, that would have been, you know, not good.

[Julian Morgans]

Very bad.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Very bad. So you believed him right at that moment, yes. But I couldn't help but think to myself, God, then he really got screwed over. To be blunt, if that's the case. So we get to the university bookstore and there's a parking lot behind the building. And I tell them, hey, just hang out here, I'll be right back. And then that's where when things started getting strange.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, it's time for a quick ad break here, but please don't go anywhere. Stick around because we'll be right back. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

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[Edna Cal Martin]

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[Edna Cal Martin]

At the University bookstore at that time. When you went up to the cash register, you faced these floor to ceiling windows and you could actually see down to down a story down to the busy street below that's called the Ave. And I was, you know, moving up towards the cashier and I start seeing a bunch of activity out the window and a bunch of people kind of turning around and rushing down to my left towards the corner and I'm going, what's going on down there? And they're turning and pointing and gesturing like they don't know what's going on. And then I started getting a bad feeling. I go out the front and I asked somebody, hey, what's, what's going on? What's going on out there? And she said, I Don't know. Something's happening down on the corner. And I went, oh. And I don't know why I thought that. And I decide to go with the flow that's heading down towards the corner. And I get down there and I can see across the street and it's a kind of a big corner. So there's kind of a crowd there and they're milling around and. And I'm stuck at a stoplight and I'm tapping my foot because I'm impatient to see what's going on over there. And the crowd parts just a little bit and I go, my God, it's Ted. And I looked at him and he's in the middle of this whole thing. I go, what in the hell is going on? And he's standing there in the middle of all these people with his arms out like he's some kind of a messiah. And he's slowly rotating and he's just, he's kind of got his eyes closed and he's going, I'm Ted Bundy over and over again as he's turning around and. And I'm going, oh, my God. That moment I thought, who is this guy? I don't know if I know who this guy is. That's when I just had chills go through me. And I'm starting to think there's a lot more to him than I think I know. You know, he's not acting like the Ted that I know right now. So I get across the street and I work my way through the crowd and finally get up to him and I literally take my hand and I slap it across his mouth and tell him to shut up. And then I grab him and I haul him out of that crowd. And the crowd is getting hostile because they're not happy about what's been going on. And Ted Bundy, his name has been in the paper now, and they're beginning to put two and two together that this might be that guy. And I'm getting him out of there before something happens. So I take him across the street, around the corner and throw him in my car. And I'm going, what the hell just happened? And now I'm going to take him back to his girlfriend's house and I'm going, this is the weirdest thing ever. And I put the car in gear and it's, it's only about a seven or eight minute drive to her house. And I start heading out and I'm dealing with traffic and I'm driving along and then I look over, we're not talking. And I turn and I look at him, and I'm just thinking, God, this is so freaking weird. And who is this guy next to me? And I turn my head and I look at him, and he's looking back at me and he's smiling. And I go, oh, my God, he did it. That's when I. It hit me that this thing that's next to me is possibly one of the most dangerous people in America and most vicious and most horrible. And I'm just like. And I literally planned that I was going to crash my car if he made a move. He didn't make a move. He didn't do anything. And we pulled up in front of Liz's house, and I stopped and put the car in gear. And I turned to look at him, and he looked at me, sort of shrugged and opened the door, got out of the car and left and shut the door. And I immediately leaped over and hit the car lock and locked the door and just put my head down on the wheel and went, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. He did it. He did it. And that was probably the most freaky, scary moment of my life. One of them.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Edna Cal Martin]

But that was right up there.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. So, God. So what did you do with this new information?

[Edna Cal Martin]

So I drive my boyfriend, Don, at this point, he's in Tacoma, which is that 35, 40 mile drive. And I just go, I'm going to Tacoma. And so when I burst into the house where Don was, I just came in and went, he did it. He did it. And Don goes, whoa, whoa, what do you mean? Because he was also harboring hope that it was a mistake. I said, no, he's the guy. He's the guy that's abducted these girls and is possibly a murderer. He's killed multiple girls. Possibly. And he took one look at me and he believed me. He didn't argue with me. He said, oh, my gosh. Because he was starting to have quivers of concern himself. Even to this day, when I talk about that moment that I was in the car with him alone, he still has a hard time holding back his emotions because he just thinks of what could have happened.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, Ted obviously went to prison. Escaped prison.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

And I understand the police called you when. When Ted escaped.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yes. So let's fast forward. It's been two years. He was in jail in Utah. Then he was transferred to Colorado because there were a couple girls that disappeared there. And so he was in a jail in Colorado, which he escaped from by jumping out of the law library, wherever he was. And he was able to get the window open and jumped out there, dropped a whole story and hurt himself, apparently, when he did it, and limped off, but ended up getting a car somehow. And he was away for a week. They caught him after a week, and he was in pretty pathetic condition at that point. So now he's back in jail, right. And this is same year 1977, but it's December 30th, so we're getting to the end of the year and I get a phone call. I haven't talked to him since that incredible crazy experience. And two years ago, kind of shocked to hear his voice. And we talked for a few minutes. I don't really know what to say to him, you know, like, what's jail like? You know, how's it going? How's your, you know.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, how's your new life?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yeah, how's your new life? How's the, you know, the lawsuit in Colorado going? And he goes, oh, it's going really well, and I should, you know, they don't have, they don't have anything on me that it's going to fall apart. And I went, oh, okay, well, that's good. You know, what do you say? But then he says, I have a question for you. And I said, okay. He says, what would you think if I escaped? And I said, what? I said, well, you tried that once, Ted, and that didn't work out very well for you, if you recall. And he goes, yeah, yeah, I know, but I just wanted to know what you thought. I said, I don't think that's a good idea. You shouldn't do that. I said, after all you've just told me that you think. Thought that you had a good possibility of not being, you know, you know, that your lawsuit was going to go well. And, and he says, yeah, but I just wanted to know what your thoughts were if I did that. I said, well, I don't think you should. And, and then he said some kind of odd things about my brother. Like he tried to say, well, your brother's the year weird one. He should be the one they're going after. And I said, what makes you say that? That's John is a sweetheart. And then I found out later that he called my brother as well that same day and asked him the same question. And of course John said, no, don't do that. But then he asked him a second question, which was very interesting. He asked him, well, so what are the two worst states for the death penalty. And John, who's this really analytical, brilliant guy, can't resist answering that question. And he says, well, that would be Texas and Florida. And Ted says, oh, I was just curious. Well, thanks. Well, apparently that night he had spent a couple months losing a whole bunch of weight. And he goes up through a vent in the ceiling and everybody's gone. Because the jail is on holiday staff levels, and so everybody's gone home for the holidays. And they just have a few people there, which I can't believe.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, seriously.

[Edna Cal Martin]

And he crawls through the. The ceiling and makes it all the way down into the employee locker room, drops down in there and puts on, you know, civilian clothes and escapes. Just walks out. And here's the thing that really bothers me in addition to all of that, but he had $700 on him. And so where in the hell did he get $700? Hmm?

[Julian Morgans]

Was it in the locker room? Like in the, you know, one of the cops at it, One of the jail wardens?

[Edna Cal Martin]

I believe that he had some girlfriends, probably people. He had lots of fans, unfortunately. And I think people sent him money. You might have found some money in the locker room, too, but $700. And there was no here in the States, we call it the tsa, where they check you at the gate. You can't walk out to the gate without all your identification and you don't pay cash for. He walked up with cash, bought a plane ticket, walked right on the plane, and nobody knew who he was, even other than, you know, God, it was

[Julian Morgans]

such an innocent time, wasn't it just. It's like it's modernity as we know it, but with all of the checks and balances and computers stripped out of it.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And you know why he chose Florida? You know, when he was told it had the, you know, the death penalty. But I also. And my co author and I. And I'm sure other people have thought of this as well, but it was as far as you could get from the Pacific Northwest. Nobody knew who he was there.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, this bit of music means it's time for an ad break. But please don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. Leadership used to mean having all the answers, but today's best leaders embody a more human approach.

[Edna Cal Martin]

I'm Jack Myers.

[Julian Morgans]

And I'm Tim Spengler.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Tim. Tim and I have spent our careers inside media marketing and culture, and we

[Julian Morgans]

partnered with the Acast Creator Network to start Lead Human. To answer one simple question. What does it really look like to lead in this AI dominated world.

[Edna Cal Martin]

The biggest tip for being a creator?

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It's a job. What I learned from Michael Jackson Here's a man who understands precision.

[Edna Cal Martin]

It's about answering the questions that are hard, not about answering a bunch of teed up questions that are fake.

[Julian Morgans]

Or what we're looking for are real stories and practical advice that you can use with your teams right away.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Subscribe to Lead Human with Jack Meyers

[Julian Morgans]

and Tim Spengler wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Julian Morgans]

I'm curious about his mother. How was she doing through all of this?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Oh, it's terribly hard on her. I don't. I think she wanted to still believe in him. I mean, I think she was the last one to finally, you know, accept that he was who he was. But she was holding out hope. I mean, like a mother would, right?

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Edna Cal Martin]

So it was, it was, it was horrible for that family. It was horrible for the kids, for his siblings. Terrible. It was.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Well, I guess they all looked up to him.

[Edna Cal Martin]

They looked up to him and it just shattered their lives in so many different ways. It was, it was horrible. He left a swath of destruction. You know, my main concern obviously, is for his direct victims. And there's still some young women whose remains have not been located to this day. And so I always am thinking about them and those families. They're still suffering even though it's 50 years later. 40, 50 years later, depending on when he, when he killed their children. It's still just a horrible, horrible impact on so many levels of people. And I decided to talk about this too, because I wanted to be able to explain what it was like to be a family member of somebody like this. You know, a different perspective. We're real people. We have Lives, you know, and we were also devastated and traumatized by what he did. We don't compare ourselves to the victim's levels, but it was, it was pretty horrible what we went through.

[Julian Morgans]

I don't want to spend too much time on Florida, but, but can you just sort of run me through what happened next?

[Edna Cal Martin]

He didn't make it very long before all that pent up hostility that he couldn't act out while he was incarcerated. You know, I think less than a month or something like that. And then he went on a murder frenzy. And when he went to the Kai Omega, he was in Tallahassee, I believe it was, and went into a sorority house and just started attacking sleeping girls in their beds and killed a couple of. It was horrible, you know, and then he went and killed a 12 year old girl and all of these, he violently sexually attacked too. I mean, it was, I don't even want to talk about what he did to them that way. It was just unspeakable.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, it's like he just sort of gave in to something. It's like, it's like with every new depravity that just set the new bar and he's like, well, this is what I did last time. Yeah, I guess I'm, you know, in for a penny, in for a pound. Like it just, it really seemed to just snowball.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yeah, well, when he was up here, he was very careful about what he did and by the time he got there, he couldn't control those urges at all apparently, and just went on a frenzy. Was, was horrific.

[Julian Morgans]

Well, it sounds, it sounds to me like at a certain point, I mean, it's. God, it's so hard to sort of get into his mindset or to even imagine little glimmers of it. But it sounds to me like he discovered this thing, a hobby, in the same way that like, I don't know, you and I might discover a new favorite band or something and got obsessive about it. And then at a certain point, it sounds to me like he just decided, I'm gonna throw myself into this to such a degree where it doesn't matter if I die or if I'm, you know, like, this will end me. And I'm okay with that, I guess.

[Edna Cal Martin]

I mean, it was a compulsion that he could not control. It took him over and he loved to be the center of attention. If you have ever seen some film clips of him when he was in his trials while in Florida, he's, you know, he fires his attorneys, he takes over when they could have Done the job and probably gotten him not to have the death penalty. He just blew it. I made friends with one of the attorneys and they succeeded at one point in getting the death penalty thrown off the table. But he'd have to plead insanity. He would have had three lifetime sentences, but he would not have been put to death. At the last second, he just decided he couldn't do that. He wasn't going to plead insanity because he wasn't insane.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Which is another baffling part of this, is that he actually wasn't insane.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Well, he had definitely had some mental problems. Serious.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

So he. He was obviously convicted. I understand he was executed in 1989.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans]

And I was wondering if you could tell me about that day.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Well, I can. I mean, up to that point, I. We started corresponding and those letters are in the books, and those are mind blowers, actually, because I wanted him to. I just confronted him and said, you're going to die. You are not going to beat this rap. You are going to be put to death. And now it's time for you to do the right thing and do something for these families. You know, he just shined me on and was very patronizing to me in the letters, but the letters are pretty amazing. And then we get down to the point where he's going to die, and then just a couple days before that, he starts confessing to multiple murders. I think it was some 29, 31 murders or something. He.

[Julian Morgans]

He confessed to the media and the authorities?

[Edna Cal Martin]

No, to. Not to me at all. Because I don't think he ever could have confessed to me because I represented a different part of his life, the sane part. I was part of the family. No. Some detectives came and sat down with him and he confessed to them. And from what I understand, he couldn't say their names out loud. So he would write them down and then push the paper across the table and they would see the name of the person. Yeah. So we wrote a series of letters back and forth. And my attempt to get him to reveal why he had done this or at least give the family some kind of answers. And I'm going to read you part of one of the letters. And so here's. Pull it out of my bag. And this is one of the letters. And he said, I did purposefully avoid discussing your accusations and your proposed revelations. You did say in one of your letters that you were tired of my trying to cover up. No sense tiring you out. Besides, I did not feel then and don't feel now that I have to defend myself against every piece of innuendo, gossip, or accusation that comes along, even from well meaning relatives. I won't discard your accusation completely. I will say this much. I have not killed anyone. And this for all those who mourn, let the dead bury the dead. And he cites Luke 9:60. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living, for all live unto him. I don't mean this to be my final word on the subject to you. What I would like for you to do is read what I have written and what you have written, and then quietly think about it. When you're ready for a calm, compassionate and loving dialogue on these things, write me. I'll be ready. Love and peace, Ted. So that's one of the last letters that he wrote me that he says, I did not kill anyone. And one of the quotes is he said, I have no guilt, remorse or regret over anything I've done.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, that's wild.

[Edna Cal Martin]

One of the worst times was the countdown to the execution. And the reason for that is because it turned into a giant media circus. Media companies from all over the country as well as the world got involved in the execution of Ted Bundy, and they were transmitted nationwide. And it was crazy in the Seattle area because people were everywhere celebrating the fact that this guy was going to be executed. And it was hard because on one hand, I completely understand how people feel because what he had done was horrific. But on the other hand, it was hard not to think about the guy that I used to know, that had all this potential, that was so caring and loving and treated me like his little sister, that I just had these warring emotions going on. It was awful. I had become friends with the Seattle Times reporter Richard Larson, and I reached out to him because I knew that he knew Ted and that he was also fooled by Ted because he wrote a book that got turned into a made for TV movie. And so I thought, oh God, I need to talk to somebody that can understand my situation, because how many people could I talk to that would even know what these emotions are like? And so he and I met up, and then he'd get a beer, I get a glass of wine, and we would just talk about how this just screwed up our lives and how crazy this whole thing was. And he never ever published anything about me. He kept everything in confidence and I'm so grateful to him. And then he ended up reporting in front of the prison on television during the countdown to his execution. And I thought, man, that took a lot of courage for him. To do that because he was a former friend of Ted's. And that day was awful. That the radio. I mean, I was driving to work and listening to the interviews while they interviewed people in the street. And it was almost a festive environment of people just, you know, burn, Bundy, burn. You know, and all these logos. My daughter was freaking out at school because all these things were happening, and she just didn't understand what it all meant. And people were saying things about, you know, how horrible he was, which indeed he was. But they also said really mean things about his family, too. And I thought, that's not fair. You know, we'd have nothing to do with this, you know? And I was terrified that the media would somehow find us, our little family. My husband dawn, who I was married to at that point now, and we had our daughter, who at that point was, I think, 12 years old. And I just was terrified that somehow they would find out that his cousin was right here in the Seattle area. And I didn't want to become part of that because they were like piranhas, you know?

[Podcast Hosts (Various)]

Yeah.

[Edna Cal Martin]

So it was really difficult time. You know, anytime somebody, you know, you know they're going to die. And it was just. It was just so weird, all these warring emotions. On one hand, you're going, oh, God. And then I was thinking, you know, this is why I don't like the death penalty, Because I wanted them to keep him alive so they could get more information out of him, because there was still a lot of unanswered questions about the families. And I thought they could study him, but they were really anxious to pull the plug and electrocute him, and they did. So that was it.

[Julian Morgans]

Do you remember the announcement that he was deceased?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Oh, yeah. It was pretty rough to think about that. The whole thing was one of the worst chapters. And you have to understand that we lived a great life. We were able to separate him out and put him into a different box and seal it off. But the specter of Ted would keep coming up throughout the rest of my life because he's kind of this icon, you know, and when people talk about serial killers, his name always comes up. It would never go away. And that's why I finally decided I got to get him out of my system. I want to write about it to start off with and tell my story before I get too old where I won't remember it. And it's been so cathartic to talk about it and to get it. Get my story out, because it was bottling up trauma like that's. Not a good idea. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. It's been the best thing in the world is to finally release it.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. So I understand that your life took on really the semblance of normality until Covid, and then you. And then you had some time and space to really think this through and you started writing your memories down.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yes. I mean, it's funny because a lot of people say that about COVID but my daughter and I, you know, now she's a mature adult and she's in the tech industry and had this. These really high level jobs, but we would go for these walks on. On an island that she lived on. We didn't live far from there. And we're out walking and this is about three years ago. And I never talked about him. In fact, all my relatives told their kids never to ask me about it. They'd tell them that I was related, but don't talk to her about it. So they were all trying to protect me. And so we're out walking and I finally kind of walk along and said, I think I need to talk about Ted. And she stopped dead in her tracks. She couldn't believe it because I never brought him up. And she said, well, tell me more. She's a good interviewer. I said, well, I feel like I need to get him out of my system and I want to talk about it. I want to tell my story. I want to tell my side of the story and what it's like to be a relative of somebody like this, you know, I mean, I just felt like it was time. So she's the one that hooked me up. She knows a lot of people. She hooked me up with a publicist who then connected me with my co writer, Megan Atkinson. It was great to have another writer to write back and forth with. And she's a writer for Sony, Netflix, Disney. I mean, she's a very talented writer, you know.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. It's a fantastic book. So, so well written. And so it was published in 2024, I believe.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yes. 2024.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And have you been surprised by the response or what's been your feeling?

[Edna Cal Martin]

It's been great. I mean, I've had a lot of interviews, and then we were approached by a production company that ended up doing this incredible documentary on it, just recently released last month. And it's called Love Ted Bundy.

[Julian Morgans]

It's fantastic. I want to spend a moment talking about your learnings, and the one that really comes to mind is, what have you learned about the nature of evil.

[Edna Cal Martin]

You know, I've always been kind of a happy, go lucky, optimistic person. And what I've learned is that sometimes I don't know how you protect yourself against somebody like that, but it's important to trust your gut. Even though I didn't pick up on it, there still were some signals that I ignored. And the most important thing that I can just convey to other young women is trust. But don't be deceived. In other words, don't just go off with people and have situational awareness. I'm an avid walker, I walk a lot by myself. And even though I'm. I'm super aware of my surroundings. I mean, I'm checking things all the time, checking behind me. And don't wear earbuds in both ears because you can't hear it if somebody comes up behind you. But evil is out there. I think it's rare. I do. I think most people aren't like that, thank God. But you need to be not quite so trusting. I don't want people to be completely scared, but you know, be careful.

[Julian Morgans]

And about the nature of Ted Bundy, do you think he was created or do you think he was born?

[Edna Cal Martin]

That's the million dollar question. I wish I had an answer for you, Julian.

[Julian Morgans]

You know, could you try to tackle it?

[Edna Cal Martin]

There's a million different variations and I'm not an expert. I don't think it helped that he didn't know his father was. There could have been some genetic things there. His first four years, which were very formative, where he was living with his grandfather, his mom was living there. And I know that his grandfather Sam, my dad's brother, had some anger issues. I don't know if that affected him. I don't know if his biological father had some problems as well that we just don't know anything about him. There are some stories that when he was little one of his aunts was over and asleep and was still young enough to be still there when he was a little boy. And supposedly he took some knives out and arranged them all around her. I mean, what does a four year old boy do with bringing knives out and putting them next to her on the bed? I don't know where he got that. If.

[Julian Morgans]

If not good. Seems ominous.

[Edna Cal Martin]

It seems ominous. I don't yet he seemed like just a sweet little kid. You know, maybe he just was down the kitchen and saw them sitting on the counter and thought they were pretty. I don't know. He's definitely been analyzed in depth and he has some Diagnoses for some severe mental issues. But what makes it so that those mental issues turn into such violent and viciously mean crimes where not only do you kill people, but you hurt them a lot first? That's. That's just unbelievably awful.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. And what do you make of the world's increasing fascination with Ted Bundy?

[Edna Cal Martin]

I don't know. I wish they would just dump him in the trash bin and forget about him. You know, there's a fascination with true crime, and I'm not a true crime fan because of having gone through this, but I get it. I think that people want to know what to look out for. He was handsome. I don't know. He had a bunch of sycophants, you know, these young ladies who were at his trial and up in the front row. I don't get that there's a fascination with danger. He married Carol Anne Boone while he was still in prison in Florida. She knew him when she worked with him down in our state capitol. Somehow she got pregnant from him while she was there. I don't get that either. And now that child has that legacy to deal with. We don't know where she is. She's. She's kept under. I hope she never gets discovered.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, God. It's. I mean, as you said before, it's just this trail of destruction and misery for so many people. You know, probably thousands of people once you tally them all up.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because, you know, you. You hurt someone and they have loved ones and family and friends. I mean, that's just. The ripple effect goes on quite a distance. So many people were affected by his selfish actions.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. I think my final question is primarily, how do you feel that this has impacted your life?

[Edna Cal Martin]

Well, on one level, we lived our lives very successfully without thinking about him. It's just that I couldn't get rid of him. He would pop up, and I would go, damn. Damn, Ted. Go away. Because every time I would read a book, or if it was a detective book, often his name would be mentioned or watch a TV show, and then would it ever. Every time it happened, I would get it, like a jolt of electricity. It would just shock me. So I guess people have told me since then that's a version of PTSD or whatever that is. So it affected me that way. But I lived a great life. I didn't manage to have it control me. But, you know, undeniably, he's always been in there.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Linda, thanks so much for sharing your stories with me. It's been really Interesting.

[Edna Cal Martin]

Well, thank you so much for your interest and for having me here. I really appreciate it.

[Julian Morgans]

So that was Edna Cowell. Martin. What an incredible guest. I just thought that she was so insightful and if you found her story compelling, I really highly recommend her book Dark Tide Growing up with Ted Bundy. We actually found Edna via her book and I should point out too, it goes way deeper into lots of memories and lots of details about growing up with Ted and their letters back and forth when Ted was in prison and Edna was writing him. There's a whole bunch of stuff that we didn't really get time for. So check it out. It's all in the book. There's a link in the show notes. Otherwise. It's also available on Amazon, Simon and Schuster and Audible. Also, you should subscribe and listen to this week's subscriber episode. We're going to explore a fascinating question and that is why did the Pacific Northwest states like Washington and Oregon produce so many serial killers? We've been talking a lot about Tacoma in this episode because Bundy grew up there, obviously, but also so did Gary Ridgeway, who was the Green River Killer. Also, Charles Manson spent some time there. I mean, Tacoma's not a big place, so what the hell was going on? So join me in our subscriber only episode where I'm going to speak to an expert who spent years studying the link between Tacoma's chemical industry and its potential impact on developing brains. It's a great conversation, fascinating stuff. So join me for that and thanks for listening. I'll see you next week. What it was like is produced by Rachel Tuffery. This episode was edited by Ellie Dickey, who also does does our research. Our cover art is by Rich Akers. Our theme music was produced by Jimmy Saunders. And this whole thing has been a super real production.

[Podcast Hosts (Various)]

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[Julian Morgans]

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[Podcast Hosts (Various)]

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[Edna Cal Martin]

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[Julian Morgans]

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