← What It Was Like
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- [00:00]
State Farm Announcer
Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. That's why a State Farm agent is there to help you choose a coverage option that's right for you. Whether you're getting a new house, car, boat or rv, helping protected is important. And State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage you need. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app. And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs so so you can continue to focus on what's most important to you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there ACAST Powers the World's Best Podcasts
- [00:37]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Here's a show we recommend.
- [00:40]
Kathy Kinzora
It's one of the most high profile unsolved murder cases. Rapper Tupac Shakur was gunned down in a Drive by shooting just off the Las Vegas Strip in September 1996. Now, after nearly 30 years, someone is going on trial for the murder. 63 year old Dwayne Keefe D. Davis is accused of getting the gun and organizing the hit on Tupac after the rapper and his entourage beat up Davis's nephew in the lobby of the MGM Grand Hotel. After decades of rumors, theories and unanswered questions, a jury will decide what is truth and what is legend. I'm Kathy Kinzora from history of the 90s and I'll be in court in Las Vegas bringing you daily updates from one of the most anticipated celebrity trials from history of the 90s, the Tupac murder trial, out daily beginning on August 10th. Available wherever you stream.
- [01:33]
State Farm Announcer
Audio Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [01:40]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Acast.com.
- [01:46]
Kathy Kinzora
Super Real
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Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
My mother was one of those. She had five kids, so she was like, oh yeah, off you go. Go off on your bike. Make sure you're home before the street lights are on. Home in time for dinner. So I spent a lot of time around these creeks and rivers and I knew of a few tunnels that I'd come across when I was riding and they were always like, geez, that looks scary. You know, a tunnel that you had to walk knee deep through as a kid you like. So yeah, that sort of led to us doing drains, which is why we're called Cave Clan. And we'd go up there and then these other explorers would come as it was just getting bigger and more people and then spreading to other states and then having members around the world. And so urban exploration is this huge worldwide scene now. And it's pretty scary to think that I played a Huge part in starting it with the Cave Clan with Woody and Sloth is unreal. It's like, wow, you know.
- [02:45]
Julian Morgans
Hey, I'm Julian Morgans and you're listening to what It Was like, the show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. Hi, welcome back. I have to admit, today's episode is pretty niche. It relates directly to my favorite very obscure interest, abandoned buildings. So when I was a kid, I spent a lot of time looking out various windows for abandoned buildings, and when I'd see one, I'd immediately make a mental note of where it was so that I could go and explore it later. Abandoned buildings, forgotten places, just overlooked spaces in general have always had this strange allure for me. And I think part of it is the, you know, the Indiana Jones, the Goonies appeal, but part of it is maybe something deeper. Maybe it's something about, I don't know, mortality. I spent a lot of time as a kid thinking about mortality. I don't know why I was, I was just one of those kids. And I think these buildings were, you know, they were briefly someone's pride and joy. One time they were designed by an architect, someone owned them very proudly, walked in on the first day and thought, wow, what a beautiful building. And then somehow the building, whatever it was, became less useful, less used and eventually derelict and then someday demolished. And not to get too nihilistic, but maybe that says something about our lives. Now I'm saying all this like I'm the only person in the whole world interested in abandoned spaces, but I know I'm not. Urban exploration is a huge thing. Look it up on Instagram, on TikTok, on, on YouTube, look up urbex, which you probably know this, but it's a contraction of urban exploration. And you're going to find literally millions of videos. But here's something that you may not know. Urbex as a global movement really got kickstarted right here in Melbourne in Australia. There was a group here who put in the effort to formalizing it as a sport and they called themselves the Cave Clan. They formed in Melbourne in 1986, the year I was born. And their specialty was drains. They explored all of the stormwater drains throughout the city, but they also did abandoned buildings, bridges and all sorts of man made structures. And I've been a huge fan of the Cave Clan for years. I've never actually formally joined, but I've been out with them a bunch of times. The first documentary that I ever actually made was back at university back in 2006, because I went out and spent a day with the Cave Clan and I shot the whole thing on, like, VHS and I think it's actually still on YouTube. It's called the Cave Clan. Go in drains, if you'd care to take a look. So I've known about the Cave Clan for a long time, but I've always wanted to know how they got started. I know that they were very famous in the 90s, and then it seemed like lots of people were talking about them in the early 2000s, and then they kind of disappeared. So I've always wondered what happened. So to find out, I got in touch with one of the founders, he goes by the name Dugo, online, and he came over to my home studio to tell me his story. Well, basically their story, how the Cave Clan got started and ultimately how their work helped to formalize Urbex globally. Now, before we start, I've got to flag that this episode is probably a little more meandering than our usual narrative led episodes, but there's some really interesting stuff in here. Highlights include Duggo's description of the Cave Clan's annual awards night. They hold this thing in a giant drain, they invite a few hundred people and they give out awards for the best new drains that get discovered throughout the year and the best explorer teams. But it hasn't all been peaches and cream for the Cave Clan. Dogo also talks about the bad times. For example, in 2009, two kids died in a Sydney drain when a freak storm filled the system up with water and trapped them. A horrible, horrible way to go out. And things actually went pretty quiet after that. There's also a description of how methamphetamine really tore the group apart in the mid 2000s. So it's really interesting to hear Duggo's inside of you. So let's get into it. Here is Duggo, a pioneering figure in the international movement of urban exploration, to tell us all about the rise and fall of the Cave Clan. Hey, Doug, welcome to the show.
- [07:25]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Thank you. Hello.
- [07:27]
Julian Morgans
Hello. Let's go back in time to 1986. What was happening in your life at that time?
- [07:35]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Well, I was into my third year at secondary school at Northcote Tech. I remember when I was about to start at Northcote Tech and all I was thinking about was I knew there was this drain underneath it that people. I'd heard other people talking about. So, yeah, when I started at Northcotech, my first day, first break, recess, I went up the drain and I ended up. There was like a Waterfall thing outside. I remember falling down, ripping my brand new school uniform, jumper slime over everything. And from that moment I was trying to get. Get other people to do it. I think the most we had was 23 students I got up there. But, you know, they wanted to go up there and write rip on Scott or go up and smoke a cigarette or we'd get around the corner into the dark and someone would scream and run out. So it was just that kid sort of stuff. But I always had that interest in drains and I don't know why, I don't know what triggered it.
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Julian Morgans
What was your interest in tunnels?
- [08:42]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
I don't know. Fraud would probably have a. Interesting view on it. I did. I do remember once. This is a bit bizarre, but I do remember when I started getting migraines and. Because I used to think that I used to dream of drains before I'd even seen them when I was a kid. And I think in hindsight when that I might have been getting migraines and getting the visual, like where you sort of go, like the start of Doctor who, you know, when the T go through the tunnel. When I get migraines, I sort of get that. But, yeah, so I just had this urge, I don't know why. I remember another friend of mine talking to him at primary school about, let's buy land at St Kilda beach because you can and create a tunnel world. And we brush. Yeah, we're going to do it. You know, like kids come up with those ideas. But that's where I was at. I was at secondary school and. And I was like trying to start this group, starting from 82, 83, 84, 85, like that. Most sort of three or four years. But every time I thought I was getting some cool dudes to explore with. Nah, nah. They just wanted to write AC DC rules on the wall and, you know, or find a spot to wag school. Yeah. So it wasn't until, I think I just left the school actually, and I thought, I'll go do the Northcotech darkies. They were all called darkies back then. We ended up stopped using that term. But it was just this weird thing that people didn't know each other, called their local drains darkies and going up the darkies. And I was walking down to where the drain was and I thought, oh, Woody lives here. I said, go to school with Woody. So I thought, I went in and knocked on his door and I said, oh, how you going? Do you want to go do the darkies? And he was like, oh, yeah. Why not? I'll just go grab my torch. And he grabbed his torch and when he came out he was with his younger brother who was Sloth. And we went up and did the drain and whatever. I can't really remember much. It's not a memorable drain. And then not long after that, Woody goes, oh, my sister's going away and Sloth and I are going to house sit the house at Diamond Creek. And there's Diamond Creek mines out there. Do you want to come and stay for the weekend and we'll do the mines? So we did, we, we explored the mines, had a ball and then we literally said we should start a group that does this kind of thing, you know, like. And I think originally we'd planned on doing more caving and mines as well. But then we realized, oh no, we don't have a disposable income, we don't have cars. But because I lived in, I was brought up in Fairfield, Elphington area, the borders were like Darebin Creek, Mary Creek and the Yarra. And also probably because my father died when I was seven, probably ironically drowned. But my mother was one of those, she had five kids. So she was like, oh yeah, off you go. Go off on your bike. Make sure you're home in time before the street lights are on. Home in time for dinner. So I spent a lot of time around these creeks and rivers and it wasn't like it is nowadays where you got these convenient concrete bike paths running along everywhere. There was nothing like that. You were literally riding through dirt tracks, through BlackBerry bushes. So yeah, the whole thing was just much more Goonies like adventure, you know. Like I knew of a few tunnels that I'd come across when I was riding and they were always like, geez, that looks scary. You know, a tunnel that you had to walk knee deep through as a kid. You're like in an area you don't know. Remember you used to freak out when you were a kid when you start to go into areas you hadn't been to. I was like that, I was like, that's on the wrong side of the error. So yeah, that sort of led to us doing drains in the meantime and then drains just. Which is why we're called cave plan and not drain dwellers or something like that. Because yeah, the intent was to do caves and, and things like that. And I always had the intention, even before Woody and Sloth, I always had the intention to start a group. Now that we started exploring, I was like, Woody and Sloth were into it, but not as into it as I was, my intent was still get more people to join. Those people will know about tunnels from out their area. So I was sort of trying to start a network of, you know, an information thing. And so when I thought, how do you get hold of people? There's no Internet. I was like, there's no way of contacting people. And we were all sort of secretive about it. We weren't telling people friends or. I played footy at the time, wouldn't tell anyone there. Even at school, even though we used to go up drains, we just weren't telling anyone that we'd started this group. So the three of us got a cassette recorder and we recorded a message saying, we explore drains, if you're interested in exploring drains. And we just talked. Well, basically we Talked shit for 30 minutes and then we made copies of it and we put it in a plastic bag and then we put a list of some tunnels that we've done, how to get to them, and some photos. And we just made this thing called a message bag. And I think that was in Ziploc bags. And then on the outside it would just say, cave Clan message bag, Please do not take if you already have one. And then we'd just take them up the drains and we time string up onto ladders where you see people climbing in and out of. We put them up a bit higher so the water doesn't get them. Once again, we still had the same problem. We didn't have mobiles, we didn't have emails, we didn't have anything like that. So then we had this thing where we'd say, if you are interested in contacting the cave clan, talking about caveman days, go to Northcote golf course, train, write a message two weeks in advance, a meeting date, so you're going to come back on this date and a time. So in the meantime, I would go up north of golf course every week and then I'd say a message from someone. Julian Morgan is going to be here in 10 days. 10 days, whatever. So then I'd get the. Whoever was in the group at the time, which originally was just Woody Sloth and I, and we'd go up there and then these other explorers would come. They're coming from like the other side of Melbourne, you know, like Bentley, Kew, Bulleen and then eventually like Western suburbs. But all these people were like coming out, leaving messages, so it was such a lot of work. You knew that they were going to be full on because they'd gone to so much trouble just to meet You. Whereas nowadays you send an email. Can you please send me some more information? It's like you don't even have to think. It's like a one minute job. These guys weren't driving either. They were catching public transport from one side of Melbourne to the other, leaving the message, going back and then going back. And occasionally we didn't see the message in time, so they'd get back and say, oh, we were here, but you didn't show up. Then in 1990, we got the P.O. box. We were already putting stickers up. We started putting the PO Box on the stickers. Then as the email became more popular, we added the email to it and now it's where it's at.
- [15:52]
Julian Morgans
So tell me about the growth of the group. Like by, by the 90s, how many people did you have?
- [16:00]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
So when it got to 88, I think it was, we were just talking about, no one's joining, we'll let it fold. And then my brother goes to me, oh, there's a message written under Normandy Avenue Bridge near the Norfolk golf course. And it says, cave Clan, contact the Drain Dwellers. And it had just a home phone number and it said, ask for Shane. So the first thing I did was wrote it down and phoned him and they answered and it was these guys, Cobra and Blade and a couple of their friends that were in this group called Drain Dwellers. And we were like, fuck, there's another group of people that do it. And it was like, suddenly we just had this like, you know, reinvigorated. We were like, ah, it's happening. And then just at the same time we were doing the message bags. And then there was some guys, Gilligan and his crew, Trinity and Vandal, these guys from down south, then Crit A Yogi, Gobbledox, this other group from the eastern suburbs, Rusko, All. A lot of these guys are still doing it 35, 40 years later. And it was just like, I was just like, oh my God, it's happening, you know, and that's when I was like, ah, we need to start something. Let's have an awards night, let's have an anniversary party every year. Let's do this, let's do that. So it just happened like that. It was like, you know when people say you have to keep struggling and eventually it'll happen. Well, that's what it was like. It was like two or three years of nothing. And then it just went crazy. And then we got the P.O. box and that opened it up to a lot more people. We'd had the stickers everywhere. You couldn't walk down the street in Melbourne, you know, traffic light, without seeing a Cave Clan sticker on it. They were fucking everywhere. Like, they were crazy amounts of stickers. And we'd have Stickeramas where we'd meet at a pub and everyone would just bring thousands of stickers and we'd give them out to everyone and we'd just go and walk around, go on a pub crawl, basically, and just. But we'd walk different ways and we just cover the street. And so then we were just getting people contacting us left, right and center. So that started the growth which led into 1991. Sydney Cave clan started up. We went up to Sydney, put up stickers. Predator, a guy who's since passed away, he started up Sydney Cave Fan. And we went to Adelaide and Zorga, who since passed away, he started up the Adelaide Cave Clan. And then Brisbane was next. He's still alive. And that all happened over, like, two years. First media thing we ever did was People magazine, so. So we set our standards. Then when A Current Affair did their thing, we hung a banner off Flinders Street Station. We hung this banner, Cave banner, PO Box, the night that it aired. And we just went on this mad publicity thing. The reason we did media stuff, a lot of urban explorers are like, you guys, you know, you brought so much heat to the scene by doing media. And we're like, there was no scene. We use the media to create the scene. And that's what helped them. And people hate me saying this. The media played a huge part in the formation of all the Cave Clan growing and becoming more than just what it was. So it was a perfect storm. Like, you know, the stickers, the P.O. box, the media. But we sort of created it like, it's. If only. Everything else in my life worked as well as, you know, getting the caveman to take off. But as I said, for a few years there, we're like, nah. And then we just got the stage where it was over. I thought. I thought it was over. I decided it's not. Not working. It's not, you know, what was the peak? Probably I'm. I'm like 57. So if you've got someone 47, you've got someone 37. They'd all say their first few years is the peak. So I really enjoyed watching it grow and all that. That period was a highlight for me. Generally speaking, the peak would have been like the late 90s till the mid 2000, 2005.
- [20:01]
Julian Morgans
And how many members did you have during that period?
- [20:04]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Probably in Melbourne, maybe 70 or 80, and then like half that in Sydney. How could we have the Clannies each year? Back then we were getting like 150 people, but that included friends. They bring their partner or, you know, so there might have been like a couple of hundred across the whole of Australia during the peak.
- [20:28]
Julian Morgans
You just mentioned the Clannies. Can you tell me what that is?
- [20:31]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Yeah. When the Cave Clan started growing, we set up this awards night in this place called the Chamber, which is this massive section of drain. When we found it, thought, this is a good spot to do something. We came up with the idea of an awards night after seeing a Logie's TV ad. And I think we held the first one in 1989. We had 14 people there. It was very basic, just Clannies written on the wall. We did the voting a few days before, gave out the awards, but it was a good night. 1989, we just had 20, 26 ones a couple of months ago. And, you know, There was like 400 people there. You just couldn't fit any more in there. It brings people together, brings the Cave Clan together and. Yeah.
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Julian Morgans
How do you get permission to run a huge event in a dream?
- [21:20]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
The police aren't a part of the organizing. The police are part of telling us to fuck off. Yeah, we've had numerous times the police have come down during the awards or we do a thing. We have short film nights and we have them at the same place quite often. And we'll just project. We'll be watching movies up on the wall. And because people are coming and going all the time, the police literally walk right up to you before you realize, oh, shit, they're police. Because they're walking out of the dark of torches like everyone else. And the police are always like, what the fuck's going on here? You know, like. Because they. They saw people going into the Drain, so they had to investigate it.
- [22:00]
Julian Morgans
So tell me about this period in the early 2000s when. When things are really humming and in relation to the Clannies, you know, you're giving out awards. Walk us through some of the awards and walk us through that kind of carnival experience in this Drain.
- [22:14]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
The awards, a lot of them are pretty boring. Just like, best first year explorer, most wasted explorer. The gold, it always finished with the gold.
- [22:24]
Julian Morgans
What's the gold?
- [22:25]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
The gold was just the best overall, you know, like heaps of exploring, heaps of helping out with the group. You were involved in everything, finding stuff. You weren't just like, you know, someone who. There's an award for Goes furthest or became most hardcore, meaning they would explore anything but they might not help. So that was the gold dodgy Crash out and crash outs changed recently. In the last couple of years it means a different thing. But for us it meant falling asleep in strange places. And people would often do things to you, get the marker out and write things on you while you're asleep. So we had an award for the person who had the funniest crash out of the year. Then we had the drain ones, like best drain, Best cavity, which is like underground but not a drain. Best topside location. So the more sort of. I don't know if you call them technical. There's people voting on their favorite sort of things. Best drain duo. So if you and I start exploring drains and we have a big year, people will nominate us. And then usually before the gold, towards the end of the night, there's a fireworks show which is a few people get singed hair. And I got this classic shot from this year's where I was filming and you just saw this stray shoot up right towards where I'm filming. I'm standing 25 meters away and it just blew up. Right now you could just hear people that hit me in the head and that was like. I was like, my eyebrows singed, my eyebrows singed. You can just see all this chatter going on in the video. Heaps of people run, but then other people that are like, I want to get closer, you know, like people used to go exploring after it. But everyone was drunk and that and probably worse. Then we just started having a party after it. So it'd finish around midnight and then it'd just be till 5 o' clock in the morning. It'd be like everyone would just see having a. Have a party down in a drain when you'd be walking home with like. And you couldn't help but get dirty. Just be walking with your hair all messed up, hungover or. Or still drunk. And it'd be like all these power walkers walking around Toorak. And you'd be like, yeah, sorry. But yeah, it was huge. The clan is a good. I won four golds, I think. But I won them most. I won them all when there wasn't that many people. It's meant to be light hearted. Whereas I think nowadays, you know, people do take it serious. I'm trying to think of the negative ones. Biggest gob off person who talks the most shit. Well, I've won that a few times. Surprise, surprise. The coward thing is like, you know, someone's going in the drain. They get their feet wet. Oh no, I'm not getting my feet wet. Or you know, I'm not climbing that. Like I hate climbing massive towers.
- [25:05]
Julian Morgans
Hey, we're going to take a quick ad break, but stick around because we'll be back with more what it was like.
- [25:12]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Hey.
- [25:13]
Julian Morgans
This episode is brought to you by Ruler. So here's something about me. When something's bothering me, I go into research mode. I read all the books. I listen to the podcasts. I take long, dramatic walks. And it kind of helps. But not really because I think at some point you realize what you really need is a human being who can talk about the specific stuff with you. And that's what Ruler is for. Ruler is a healthcare company that makes therapy easier. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, so the average copay comes down to around $15 a session. You share your goals and your preferences. You know just what you're dealing with. And Rula helps you to find a therapist who specializes in what you need. There's no wait lists and appointments can be as soon as tomorrow, so visit ruler.com waslike to get started. That's ruler r u l a.crulul was like because you deserve mental health care that works with you and not against your budget,
- [26:14]
State Farm Announcer
checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. That's why a State Farm agent is there to help you choose a coverage option that's right for you. Whether you're getting a new house, car, boat or rv, helping protected is important. And State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage you need. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app. And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs so you can continue to focus on what's most important to you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host, and that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is you just haven't been introduced yet. We're acast where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening and book host red sponsorships or run your own ads, all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com Advertisement.
- [27:34]
Julian Morgans
Do you have a favorite drain somewhere in Australia and Can you describe it?
- [27:39]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
So maize. I really like maize in Melbourne. My favorite is Hobart Darkie in Hobart. It's amazing. Like, even people that don't do drains, they used to run tools through it and they've got lights on in it. There's a sandstone, red brick, and it just changes every minute. It only takes you 20 minutes to walk through it. But it's. If maize was in Hobart and I couldn't do it whenever I wanted to, maize would probably be my favorite. But because I've literally done maize at least once every year for the last 40 years, and some years I would have done it eight times, like with the new explorers. And we do exposure. It's like a huge drone. We do this thing called maze, end to end without a torch. And we would go in through the small end, crawling with no torches and complete darkness for two hours. The only light you'd get would be light coming in through gutters and that.
- [28:32]
Julian Morgans
Tell me what makes a great drain.
- [28:36]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
A good drain or a great drain is one that changes a lot. So it'd have multiple shapes, so round arch, what we call mummy, which is like a sarcophagus shaped coffin type thing. All different types of texture. So sandstone, red brick, blue stone, a bit of concrete. Features like waterfalls, stairways, slides, ramps. Some areas where natural lights get into. They might have big grilled rooms. The Hobart drain has a really good section where the grill comes in from a big arcade above where tourists look down. It's got a mirror so they can see up the tunnel. Colors. Like some drains have weird colors. Like you might have green, moss or shade. Just variety. Varieties of spice Alive. Variety makes a good drain.
- [29:33]
Julian Morgans
You mentioned before that there was a drain in Sydney where two people died. And I understand this was a big deal for the group.
- [29:40]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
It was. It was two graffitiists, Flaps and Banish. They both passed away. They were doing graffiti up there with another person. I wouldn't mention his name. He's been through enough already. Yeah, they were up there. A storm came, and the two of them didn't really know. They'd never been up there before. So they got washed through this drain. And this drain at the end of it had a grill on it. Predator had bent the grilling. I think these guys got into a manhole. They got washed at the end. And the flood was pushing him against this bar. He was just lucky. The survivor was just lucky that he got pushed because you got. You can't manipulate it. You're just literally like a rag doll. And he got pushed where the gap Was. And he got out. They didn't. So they would have. Would have been the worst. He got out and then some guy surfer dude was up on his balcony and he was like, you know, having a coffee and he saw this person getting washed out to sea. So he went down his surfboard and rescued him. Paddled out. So lucky. He was lucky. He wouldn't have survived if it wasn't for that. Surfer dudes.
- [30:54]
Julian Morgans
That's wild.
- [30:54]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy. That's why I don't like mentioning the guys he's copped a bit of. Some people try and blame him, you know, for it, but because he was
- [31:03]
Julian Morgans
a bit older, wasn't he? Because the other two were like. It was a young woman who was 21 and there was a 25 year old and I think he was a bit older. He was almost 30 or something.
- [31:12]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
That sounds about right. Yeah.
- [31:14]
Julian Morgans
I think the insinuation was that he was kind of mentoring them or something, showing them the ropes, you know, how to do drains.
- [31:20]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Yeah. And I think he may have been in the cave, like as a probationary member. He may have been on the Sydney Cave Clan site, which I probably shouldn't be mentioning at Sydney Cave Clan. And people like, no, don't mention that. Even though it's 26 years later or whatever it is. So what happened then was obviously everyone media started contacting the Cave Clan and I think the Cave Clan was just like, nut. We're not commenting on it. I think I did a standard response and just anyone that contacted us, I just sent this thing. They weren't part of the Cave Clan. You know, we're devastated that it happened and feel bad for family and friends, but, you know, just that sort of statement. But the. Then there was a coroner's report. Was there an inquiry? I think there might have been an inquiry into it. And they suggested that the police or government look into the Cave Clan, mainly talking about the Sydney Caveman. Sydney Cave Clan took down their website. They just went underground and they took a while to recover. And recently I've been going around filming all my favorite drains while I physically still can. And we went up. It's really hard to get into Fortress now. Like, really hard. Fortress is the drain that I drowned in. And first time ever we were walking through the drain and there's a lot of condensation on the walls. And we're sort of looking at this graffiti and we're like, someone was trying to do a graffiti on here. All the walls are wet. And we realized it was the Paintings they were doing then they were both unfinished.
- [32:59]
Kathy Kinzora
Wow.
- [33:00]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
And yeah, it was like, oh, it just puts in that real sort of somber, you know. Yeah. That was the first time I've seen them. And yeah, so that was pretty sad. And they weren't that far from the entrance. Like if they knew the tunnel better. As I said, I think what confused them was they got into a manhole. So maybe they might have tried going back the way. I don't know what the specifics were. And I've never heard the guy who survived. I've never heard him. The reason I mentioned before, they'd be getting washed around like a rag doll. It's. It's common sense that they would. But also Silagen, who's like a famous cave clan member who explores drains all around the world. He climbed down a ladder at a waterfall. There was water on the ground, but he thought it was just like that deep and he stepped on it. But it was actually like a four foot deep pit and the water was pouring into it was so swishing around. And he just said he just thought he was going to die. He had no control. He. He was just like. He was just swallowing water and he was literally just getting swirled around. And then he goes. He was just like he'd given up, so he was gonna die. Ran out of energy and then it just threw him out. He got swooshed around and he landed on the, you know, outside of the pit. And he's on his own. No one knew he was there. And he started vomiting up all this water and that. And yeah, he got out and he's like. He wrote about it in Neil Drano, so I know the story pretty well, but he used the term, you know, it's just like a rag doll being thrown around in this pit.
- [34:41]
Julian Morgans
So you're making it sound really dangerous. Is draining dangerous?
- [34:46]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
I've got a habit of making it sound dangerous because I'm also paranoid that, you know, 1 day 815 year olds are going to go in a drain and get washed out. And. And people be like, well, you talk about drains all the time or whatever. They're very dangerous. And you know, most of the people that get hurt or worse, it's because they become complacent. So if you don't become complacent and use technology like check the radar and things like that, the weather radar, the weather rider, and you do tell people where you're going and you're with someone who knows the drain and all that sort of thing. I'm always very Lucky we've got an image of having a beer in our hand when we explore. But if it's somewhere we don't know, or somewhere risky or dangerous at all, you know, there's none of that. We're very serious. I guess I don't want to put a moz on myself, but I've lasted this long without any serious near misses because, I mean, I have a couple of times where I've done stuff that I shouldn't have and like half an hour later the tunnels flooded up to the roof and we're like, oh. But sometimes near misses can be a good thing because then people will talk it up. So I do talk about the dangers of it and I do a tribute page for urban explorers that have passed away and I do videos about the dangers because it's just gotten so big. I feel like what I'm trying to say is those people that have seen these beautiful things, I just want them to be aware that they don't fuck around when they flood.
- [36:25]
Julian Morgans
I understand you guys have a saying about what happens when it's raining.
- [36:30]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Yes, when it rains, no drains. Cobra, one of the drain dwellers, he coined that phrase. He was great guy. He was the most fun exploring with. It's like, hey, hey, Doug. Oh, when it rains, no drains. I was like, yep, that, that's a good one. And yeah, we. It's set all over the world now. I mean, some people swap it around a bit. No drains when it rains. But yeah, it's. It's when it rains, no drains.
- [36:58]
Julian Morgans
Hey, this bit of music means it's time for an ad break. But please don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
- [37:08]
State Farm Announcer
Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. That's why a State Farm agent is there to help you choose a coverage option that's right for you. Whether you're getting a new house, car, boat or rv, helping protected is important. And State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage you need. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app. And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs so you can continue to focus on what's most important to you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. You've got social dialed in. Search is doing its thing. So why do your marketing results look the same as six months ago? That's because you're fishing in the same pond as everyone else. Podcast listeners are a different audience, entirely more engaged, harder to reach through traditional channels and ready to act when someone they trust makes a recommendation. We're Acast and we put them right in front of you. Browse thousands of the world's leading podcasts, book host, reads or run your own ads and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have. Brand new results. Acast.acast.com advertise.
- [38:24]
Julian Morgans
So I think I want to talk about this next period where maybe things got a bit harder. You know, these. These kids died in this drain. The Sydney crew kind of went underground a bit, and I understand that ice became. Or methamphetamine became a problem for a few members.
- [38:41]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Yeah.
- [38:42]
Julian Morgans
Can you walk me through this?
- [38:43]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Yep. So the Caveman had another sort of peak around 2010 to probably 2015. Things were going pretty well. And then that period where the two explorers, Graffitius drowned five years later, that had passed and we had a really good period. Like, things were good, good people. And that's. That's a big part of it, you know, like good people. But then, yeah, then sort of meth was becoming a problem everywhere, and it sort of started happening in the Caveman, where there was members that were getting into meth. And unfortunately, it just became such an effort. I think at the time I was having issues. I think my mother passed away that month. You know, I was having personal issues with family, and I was just like, I can't be bothered dealing with this sort of thing. These people that were more involved in meth also sort of wanted the Cave Clan to become a more serious professional thing. And so. And then a few others, Eden Crit and a couple other guys were like, let them sort it out. We always sort it out. And every time we'd sort out a problem, whatever the problem, you did eliminate the problem. But they'd have their friends and that. So you'd have collateral damage where other people would be pissed off that someone was kicked out of the group and you'd cop the. So this was happening with the meth thing, and it was so big that we just left. We just went, I don't know, about 30 of us. We just left it and left them to their own devices and they didn't stop. It took 10 years for them to get rid of the guys and they got rid of themselves. They ended up a couple of them in jail. This couple got kicked out for sexual harassment. I mentioned. Yeah, one was doing some dodgy stuff online, 3D printing. I won't go too far into that. They were beating each other up. Like one of them knocked one out, punched One in the head. I'm gonna say it was a pretty shit time. You know, I remember one guy telling me a story about I arrived at this house where a bunch of these guys that were sort of organizing everything, you know, to explore at 1 o'. Clock. We were leaving at 1 o', clock, but then they'd all do meth for an hour. And you say you're just hanging around, sort of these guys doing meth and all right, we're going to go exploring. You know, like, it was really shit and it was bad for the Caveman and Woody and Sloth and other guys that have been in the Cave Clan for decades were like, just tell them the fuck off. It was not that easy. So because the group had always been set up in a way that, you know, you're not in charge. It was meant to be a democracy and so we just let it. Let it go. Yeah. And took nine years and as I said, it fell apart. And now it's coming good again. And now we're trying to. If, if anyone's watching that's interested in, in the. The period of the Cave Clan when there wasn't meth, we're trying to get some fresh blood into the group. So, yeah, so this spring we're going to try a new explorers Expo and it's going to be run by the old school guys. We're just trying it just as a bit of fun. Just give it a shot for a year. You'll start seeing me messaging about opening the gates, coming back to the Cave Clan. So because there are people, there's a group called the Tunnel Toads and they only exist because they couldn't join the Cave Clan. The guys who started them tried contacting the Cave Clan but they were getting no responses or it was too disorganized. They're really cool guys and gals. I think the more of the meth involves clan members that leave, they're called the Crime Church. The guys, that's what they call themselves, the meth guys. I'll stop calling them meth guys. So the more of the Crime Church guys that leave, the more that tunnel toad people will probably feel more comfortable and also the more that new people that we bring into it. So I'm just rambling now.
- [42:54]
Julian Morgans
No, no, this is good. You. You're really describing the fracturing of draining as a subculture into all of these little groups, you know, these little splinter cells that kind of peeled off the Cave Clan.
- [43:06]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Yeah.
- [43:07]
Julian Morgans
So what's the lay of the land now?
- [43:10]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
We had the 40th anniversary on the Stray Day long weekend, a 40 year reunion. So we had members coming back that hadn't been involved in the group in 10 years, 20 years. We had the awards night, we brought that a couple months forward. So we just had this huge weekend and it was really good. We all got on well together and you could almost say it's back together. But other branches, Adelaide just does their own thing. They still come to the Clannies and if people go to Adelaide and they'll do stuff with them, they're all just doing their own thing. But Melbourne's hopefully coming good. And yeah, like a lot of people that were in the drain drongos, the ones that left, they're more willing to go to stuff now. Whereas there was a period where it's like, no, I'm not going anywhere near it. Like, my daughter is 18, she wants to join the Tunnel Toads, not the cave clan. But that's because she's heard me doing stuff like this before.
- [44:05]
Julian Morgans
What I love about your story is it feels like you really like our modern understanding of Urbex. You know, urban exploration. It's all over YouTube, it's all over TikTok. It feels to me like you guys really brought that out of people as a sort of latent desire and an interest into this sort of like a group, a club with rules. You gave it a formula, you gave it a logo. Suddenly Urbex had a sort of like public facing kind of Persona. What do you think of that? Did you pioneer Urbex?
- [44:39]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Well, there's been people exploring environment since. Since stuff was built, you know, like there's always been people in Paris and things like that, and people in unis exploring the steam tunnels. But I'm pretty sure any groups that there were before us, like in Melbourne there was a Drainiacs, they were pretty localized. So we definitely helped speed it up. I think that Urbex would have come to Australia eventually, but we sped it up by 10 or so years. We were doing it before Urbex was a thing by 15 years. So yes we did. But I just don't want to sound like a wanker and say, yeah man, it's all because of us. But it was all because of us. But the main problem nowadays is there's probably a lot of people who come along who don't give a shit about the cave clan, don't give a shit about the code of ethics, that really just want to go into a spot and get a photo or a 30 second video and be done with it. So don't care if they smash a window or kick a door in to get in or even on the video. The video might include vandalizing stuff. You know, it's all about getting that 30 second TikTok video. And I tell a story about how we explored this Melbourne power station which used to be in Spencer Street. It's been demolished since and we were exploring it for like five years and it was pretty much untouched. And then graffiti has sort of found out about it and then it started getting vandalized and as in smashed and people painting on the outside and, you know, everyone found out about it. Once it got out, within 12 months it was trashed and Fort Knox, you know, all boarded up and locks and security. So it lasted five years. Same with Panch Preston and Northcote Community Hospital. Once it got out that people were getting in there, within six months, 12 months it was gone. Nowadays you find an abandoned building and you go back six months later and it's fucked. Everything smashed, all the doors are kicked in. It's just like nothing lasts unless you can somehow keep it. Once it gets in the public eye and there's so many people looking for locations and there's a lot of people, which I don't really use TikTok normally they do it in private, but the problem is everyone's trading the location so it gets out so quickly. Like. Yeah, whereas back in the day when it was a Cave Clan thing where I was saying 85% of people that were exploring were Cave Clan and 15% weren't, it was all Cavegren people and we all followed the rules, you know, we respected the location and we respected it for future explorers. Whereas, you know, there's still explorers like that out there and there's still people on TikTok that are probably like that. But there's a lot more that don't give a shit and there's a lot more of them and now there'd be thousands. There's a village cinema down my way. The Village in Morwell Cinema shut down and these two old guys bought it with the intention of showing movies there. But there was a clause that you couldn't show movies there for 20 years. So these guys gradually did it up and they did have some screenings and people like F K going in. This old cinema was so cool and one of them died. Then it just. People stopped using. There was no one using it. So now it's like I did a video, I walked through it finally and there was literally syringes everywhere. I was wearing thongs in there and there was syringes. I'm like, this is. Fuck. And then there was a fruit box. You know, there's white Styrofoam fruit boxes, just like 50 picks in it or 25 syringes in it. There's homeless people in there, drug addicts in there and legitimate squatters, but that's a TikTok thing. And when I went into the cinema, I went upstairs into the projection room and there was films leaning against the wall, which was weird. The whole place is trashed, except these films were just sitting up on the wall and I was like, oh, cool. So I filmed them. And yeah, someone in the comments said, why didn't. Why didn't you steal the films? Why didn't you take the films? You know, like, then no one else can see them. Yeah. Like, so that, that whole. It's a bit depressing, the Tick tock thing, and. And I know someone will probably message you going, I'm on Tick tock, man. And I do it for the right reason. Not saying everyone's a dickhead on TikTok, but a lot of them are.
- [49:10]
Julian Morgans
So, I mean, in lots of ways you helped to found Urbex as a movement and it sounds like you're not entirely happy with it these days. It's sort of modern TikTok incarnation.
- [49:21]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Yeah. But, you know, I could be partially to blame for it because in hindsight's great, you know, like, when we were doing media stuff, maybe we took it too far. You know, maybe we made it too accessible back then. I'm sorry for anyone that's watching that's just getting into Urbex, but all the, all the highlights, all the, the good times that when I mentioned, you know, 98 to 2000, whatever, and I don't think this does not. This is like the worst time. This is the worst time for exploring.
- [49:55]
Julian Morgans
Why is that?
- [49:56]
Kathy Kinzora
Just.
- [49:56]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
There's just too many people doing it. Yeah. And I don't care. I was, I was, you know, we were trying to get people to join. There was no one doing it when we started. But it's just gone from one extreme to the other. It's just like, you know, and copper thieves haven't touched on that. Like, they get into the buildings and they just find the copper and they just rip it out and just see a line and then the roof caves in. You know, we never had that.
- [50:18]
Julian Morgans
So do you have a message to deliver to anyone who's interested in Urbex? What would you say?
- [50:25]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
I'll just remember if you're Getting into a spot and neighbors and everything see you. Fair enough. You're going to be gone in 10 minutes, but they'll call police or security and eventually that location is going to get locked down. So you need to be cautious. Same with manholes. If you're getting in and out of a drain and people see you, they might not say anything to you, but it just adds attention to it. And manholes get blocked up and locations get blocked up. And don't rush. People are like, I want to do these drains. And I'm like, it's in the middle of winter. Just wait a while. Oh, no, no. Because they need content. Just chill out. And I'm about to say they're not going anywhere. The drains and the tunnels and the bridge rooms aren't going anywhere. Abandoned buildings are because they're getting smashed up. But yeah, just chill out. And just if you see people doing the wrong thing, smashing things up and things like that, or posting locations, don't talk down to them, but just maybe mention to them, you know, you're mentioning where the location is. It's not going to be there soon.
- [51:33]
Julian Morgans
You know, just very briefly, I'm wondering if you see the Cave Clan as part of your legacy.
- [51:43]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
I spent most of my life like the first 30 years of cave Clan. I would answer no, but yeah, I do, I do now. Now I see it as like something I'm proud of. Maybe not the crime church years, but even then, the fact that 30 of us went away and didn't have a problem for nine years, we all got on really well. You know, I'm proud of that. So I'm proud of the Cave Clan and what it's become. And you know, it was my obsession. Like Woody and Sloth. Woody wasn't in it for that long actually. And then Sloth comes to stuff when he gets invited. But I was obsessed with it, so I can't help but feel like I achieved something.
- [52:26]
Julian Morgans
Duggo, thank you so much.
- [52:28]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
No worries.
- [52:29]
Julian Morgans
This has been amazing. Thanks for listening today. Now subscribers, please stick around because we've got you a treat. Now, you just heard the Australian angle on how the Cave Clan helped to formalize urban exploration. But Urbex is a very old, very disjointed, informal pastime that's globally popular. So here's something that you may not know. One of the co founders of the Burning Man Festival. That's right, that iconic desert festival held in Nevada. He was actually an Urbex explorer back in the 1970s. So for our subscribers this week, I'm going to speak with John Law, who was part of a theater troupe and urban exploration group in 1970s San Francisco called the Suicide Club. This was full on 1970s counterculture experimentalism, the kind of scene that eventually forged Burning Man. So John's going to explain how this festival grew out of the shenanigans that this group used to get up to. It's very interesting, it's a great story and it's available right now for subscribers only. If you're a subscriber, I'll see you see you over there. And if you're not, well, you know what to do. Thanks everyone. I'll see you next week. What It Was like is produced by Rachel Tuffery. This episode was edited by Ellie Dickey, who also does our research. Our cover art is by Rich Akers, our theme music was produced by Jimmy Saunders, and this whole thing has been a super real production.
- [54:12]
State Farm Announcer
Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. That's why a State Farm agent is there to help you choose a coverage option that's right for you. Whether you're getting a new house, car, boat or rv, helping Protected is important. And State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage you need, whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app. And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs so you can continue to focus on what's most important to you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there ACAST powers the world's best Podcasts.
- [54:49]
Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
Here's a show we recommend.
- [54:51]
Kathy Kinzora
It's one of the most high profile unsolved murder cases. Rapper Tupac Shakur was gunned down in a Drive by shooting just off the Las Vegas Strip in September 1996. Now, after nearly 30 years, someone is going on trial for the murder. 63 year old Dwayne Keefe D Davis is accused of getting the gun and organizing the hit on Tupac after the rapper and his entourage beat up Davis's nephew in the lobby of the MGM Grand Hotel. After decades of rumors, theories and unanswered questions, a jury will decide what is truth and what is legend. I'm Kathy Kinzora from history of the 90s and I'll be in court in Las Vegas bringing you daily updates from one of the most anticipated celebrity trials from history of the 90s, the Tupac murder trial. Out daily beginning on August 10th. Available wherever you stream audio.
- [55:47]
State Farm Announcer
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize
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Duggo (Cave Clan Founder)
their podcasts everywhere Acast.
- [55:53]
Kathy Kinzora
Com.