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- [00:00]
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- [01:11]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [01:14]
Dale Wheatley
Hello American podcast listeners. Max Rushton here from the Guardian Football Weekly, which I think you should give a listen.
- [01:19]
Joanne (Interviewer)
It is Good comes out three times a week and the podcast delivers you analysis news, both the good and the bad from the beautiful game and maybe even the occasional laugh.
- [01:27]
Dale Wheatley
He's angry about everything. He doesn't have a great poker face, does he? I would like to play cards with Bruno Fernandes.
- [01:37]
Joanne (Interviewer)
You can listen to the Guardian Football
- [01:38]
Dale Wheatley
Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:40]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Hopefully see you soon. ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
- [01:57]
Dale Wheatley
Super real. Leo basically swore he was going to destroy us and that's what he went on to do and, and, and destroy the movie as well. Like, we got called to his house that day. They dismantled us. I mean it was like so abusive. He didn't listen, he didn't do any investigating, he didn't quite question anything. And so Leo went on an absolute rampage. And from that day forward, my entire Hollywood experience changed. I mean, overnight and it was so instant. Every major relationship I had died. All the major offers coming in for Don's Plum were withdrawn. So all that got blocked. And yeah, it was the end of my dreams on that day, really.
- [02:43]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Hey, I'm Julian Morgans and you're listening to what it was like the show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. Hey, welcome back. This week we're going to Hollywood. And I have to say, these kinds of stories have a special place in my heart. Growing up, I always wanted to make movies as a career. I actually studied film at university, and in a roundabout way, that's how I got into podcasting. So I very much relate to stories about dreams and pivoted dreams too, I guess. Now this week, I'm speaking with a man named Dale Wheatley, who grew up in Vancouver and then moved to la, where he landed in with a crowd that included Leonardo DiCaprio and Toby Maguire. Now, this was before Romeo and Juliet, it was before Titanic, and Leo wasn't a household name, but he was coming up in the world in this circle of friends. They all partied together, they ate together, they slept on each other's couches, and then they made a film together. It was a hyper low budget indie film called Don's Plum, and it was scripted and produced by Dale and starring all of Dale's friends, including Leo and Toby Maguire. And when they finished it and they screened it, they got a standing ovation. Leo was thrilled. Danny DeVito's production company wanted to sign them up for a three picture deal, and Dale suddenly found himself living his childhood dream. But then Leo and Toby had a change of heart and they set about doing everything that they could to crush the film and dismantle Dale's friendships. This is a story about power and about doing everything right and still having it not work out. I think it's a pretty sad story in a beautiful way, and it's a fascinating glimpse behind the biggest, glitziest curtain in the world. And one last thing, just before we get started, you're going to hear us reference Dale's book a few times, which is a memoir of this period of his life. It's called Too Real, and I'll link out in the show notes. Okay, let's get into it. Here is Dale Wheatley. Hey, Dale, welcome to the show.
- [05:02]
Dale Wheatley
How are you doing, Joanne?
- [05:03]
Joanne (Interviewer)
I'm doing very well. How are you doing?
- [05:05]
Dale Wheatley
I'm doing great, man. Thanks for. Thanks for the invite. It's great to be hanging out with you tonight.
- [05:09]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Let's set the scene here.
- [05:11]
Dale Wheatley
Sure.
- [05:11]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and how that upbringing brought you into the movie world?
- [05:18]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. So it's like a really wintry place. And we spent a lot of time indoors and, you know, VHS has just came Out. And so we binged on movies. We watched everything, you know, we were watching 10, 15, 20 movies a week probably on, on, you know, when, when there was no school. So I just got into the movies and it was really from there probably that like I fell in love with or just loved the idea of entertainment.
- [05:43]
Joanne (Interviewer)
What was your dream as a kid?
- [05:45]
Dale Wheatley
I had so many, but my first dream was to be a hockey player. But I lost my knees very, very early. It wasn't really until later that I started to discover sort of the acting thing. I got on to stand up comedy when I, I was 18 years old and I booked a, you know, an amateur night spot where I got like five minutes and I just killed it. And so I kept doing stand up for a few years and that's what kind of led me down sort of from Winnipeg to Vancouver and then eventually from Vancouver to Los Angeles.
- [06:12]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Yeah, tell me about the move from, from Canada to, to la. You know what, what inspired that man?
- [06:18]
Dale Wheatley
It was, it was all like serendipity basically. These actors came to town to work on a movie called Hideaway, which starred Jeff Goldblum. And my roommate ended up hooking up with one of the, one of the actors. And he just showed up at the apartment five days later and told me this long story about how he hooked up with this girl who's working on the movie with Jeff Goldblum. Eventually another actor came along with her and we kind of went out and had a party night where we just, you know, went clubbing and all this other stuff. And I met Jeremy Sisto that night. I don't know if you know, that is, but he was an up and coming actor at that time and he and I just hit it off really huge. And we just made super fast friends with each other. We just loved each other, hung out incessantly for months and months and months while he shot the movie. And toward the end he was, he was just, you know, he was. And I was kind of sort of a little self promoting, but he was, he just thought I was a really good actor because we did all these acting games and exercises and all this stuff and he just thought I should come to LA and roll the dice. I arrived in Hollywood June 4, 1994. And my first impression was Hollywood was of Hollywood was like, you know, what a dump. I mean, the place was just so nasty. But there was something extremely familiar about it.
- [07:29]
Joanne (Interviewer)
So you ended up falling in with this friendship circle that included some of the biggest Hollywood names of the 90s. You know, there was obviously Leo. But there was Alicia Silverstone and Toby Maguire. How did you become friends with these guys?
- [07:42]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, well, with Alicia Silverstone, I met her in Vancouver. She was working on Hideaway with Jeremy Sisto. And again, we became, you know, extremely fast friends. But it was Jeremy Sisto who introduced me to everybody. You know, I got to Hollywood, and in the first week I was there, he invited me over to a friend's house who was throwing a party. And then there was this group of dudes sitting around talking with each other, all centered around one blonde kid. He was talking about his experience on a movie set, and he looked uncannily like Leonardo DiCaprio, who I just read about in a magazine, literally in the airport on the way to. To Los Angeles. And, you know, at first I was like, there's no way it could be Leonardo DiCaprio. You know, I was just. There's no possible way that the world could be so small that I could have this, like, connection with him. And it turned out to be that he was talking about his time on that movie he did with. With Sharon Stone and Gene Hackman. I can't even remember right now. Quick in the Dead.
- [08:37]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Nice.
- [08:37]
Dale Wheatley
So he was shooting Quick in the Dead at the time that I got there. Anyway, so that's. That was, like, the first week in Hollywood. I literally got off the plane. And then one week later, I find myself in, like, this super elite party where on that night, not only did I meet and play basketball with Leonardo DiCaprio, but I met Toby Maguire. I met Kevin Connolly, I think. But, you know, that group, you know, that is now known as the Pussy Posse, but back then were just like any other group, just a click of friends hanging out.
- [09:00]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Can you tell me about playing basketball with Leo?
- [09:03]
Dale Wheatley
Well, he's way better than me, I can tell you that. It was fun, you know, I mean, it was. It was. It was so interesting, man, because, like, I kind of knew this was, like, an important moment for me. Like, I didn't know why it was so important, because in the end, he's just a dude. But, you know, I felt the presence of the moment where I'm. I'm, like, hanging out with a lot of people who were coming up in the business in a big way. And this is really everything I've dreamed about. You know what I mean? I mean, it just seemed so out of reach. But there. There they all were, and there I was, and so I recognized it as a really important moment, even if it was just a game of basketball. I just knew that, you Know that these were friendships, you know, you wanted to have. I mean, I was kind of frozen in my. In my boots. But, you know, he asked me to play basketball. And when he asked me to play basketball, I just. It's just kind of like this weird, like, almost ethereal feeling, like, what the hell am I doing here? But I did recognize that I didn't want to blow the moment. You know, I wanted to impress the guy. You know, I wanted to impress the guy. He was Leonardo DiCaprio. I knew he was an Academy Award nominated actor at that point, and without a doubt, I wanted to impress him. And what I did was fall on my ass. What I did was let him beat me bad at basketball. That's what I actually did do. But we ended up becoming friends.
- [10:12]
Joanne (Interviewer)
And do you have any other memories from that night?
- [10:15]
Dale Wheatley
You know, I think the biggest memory from the first night where I met all those guys was there was this incredible sense of freedom in an inhibition. There was like, something about being in the room with these people who I knew, like, they let themselves go in order to get somewhere creatively. And. And you could feel that. I could feel that all around me. And it was invigorating and it was inspiring. And even, like, kind of. There was something very passionate about it, which was really. It was amazing. I mean, I woke up the next morning, and I don't know if you've ever had those mornings where, like, the night before or the day before was so exhilarating that the world kind of looks fresh and new, where the colors are a little bit. Maybe more. A little more saturated. You know, it was like that I woke up feeling almost euphoric. And it was really. Because I was. I was saturated in an energy that I. That I. That I craved in my life.
- [11:12]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Was there an element of power to it as well? Like, you knew that you were rubbing shoulders with power.
- [11:17]
Dale Wheatley
I never looked at Hollywood ever as an opportunity, as a power opportunity. I never thought about power as it related to Hollywood at all. I wish I had, actually. I think it's one of my shortcomings is not recognizing that power was in play and in a big way. So for me, it was not power. In fact, it was a. It was like. Like humility was the first thing I grasped onto. You know, it was. I felt like the more humble I can be in this situation, the more likely I can. I will have a chance at success.
- [11:48]
Joanne (Interviewer)
I'm curious about what sort of social dynamic you identified within this group. So. So you know how every circle, they have their own Little words. They have their kind of cues. They have a. They have a kind of collective humor.
- [12:03]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah.
- [12:03]
Joanne (Interviewer)
What was the, was the culture, the mood in that social circle?
- [12:07]
Dale Wheatley
I think, you know, it was kind of Leo's group. Like, you got that feeling right away. You know, he was really the leader in an unspoken sense, you know, and obviously in a sense of reverence and, you know, and just admiration. I mean, he was doing what everyone there was dreaming of doing, and he was doing it at the highest possible level. And even though he wasn't pulling down the, like, massive money, everyone knew it was just a matter of time.
- [12:29]
Joanne (Interviewer)
I guess really what I'm getting at is I'm imagining this group as almost being like the popular group in high school. And the popular group can be kind of mean sometimes. I'm wondering if there was any of that kind of meanness.
- [12:42]
Dale Wheatley
It, you know, I'll tell you that there wasn't much of that at all. It did show up later, a couple years into the relationship. I guess the cruelest part of Hollywood really is the sort of immediate judgment that other actors fall under immediately as soon as they're exposed to any other actor, really. I mean, who's going to make it and who's not going to make it is a conversation everybody had at all times in Hollywood. Do you know what I mean? So there was a. So there's a super competitive side of it that was kind of veiled. Like it wasn't like, you know, 100%, like, obvious, oh, look, you know, these guys are, you know, you know, super competitive. And it was more, it was, it was very subtle. It just came out in, in different ways. Like it's all status based. And that status is really, really revolves around who you worked with and, you know, sort of what was the role like? If you worked with Woody Allen, that's great, but if you had one line, maybe not so great, but I didn't, I didn't see it as something threatening, but it was, it was certainly present. That makes sense.
- [13:42]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. So you go to this first party, you play basketball, Leo. You kind of become friends with these guys. How does this slowly develop into, hey, let's make a film together?
- [13:55]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, we're, you know, we, we became fast friends, as I mentioned. And Jeremy Sisto, who was the guy responsible for bringing me to Hollywood in the first place, he took an active role in trying to get my career going. He got me an audition for Clueless, which I completely, totally blew. And then he eventually got me this audition for a short film which would star Leonardo DiCaprio, Tobey Maguire, Kevin Connolly, Scott Bloom, who's going to be written and directed by their friend Artie Robb. And. And there was a perfect role for me. I auditioned for that role and I completely blew it. I fell flat on my face. I don't know what it was with me man in Hollywood, but I just blew all my auditions. I don't know, the intimidation, maybe I just couldn't rise to the level of competition that these others had. I don't know what it was, but I sucked.
- [14:35]
Joanne (Interviewer)
In what way did you blow them? Like, you just. You weren't very convincing. You weren't very interesting. You weren't very.
- [14:40]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, I mean, I would just. Well, my, you know, my mouth would dry up, dude. I mean, I would just go out there and I would just fail. I would just. My nerves would take over and everything I prepared for in the character disappeared instantaneously, leaving me completely naked and abandoned in front of these people who are all staring earnestly at me. And, and yeah, I would just blow it. I thought my stand up comedy was going to come in and save me in those instances, but it never did. So, yeah, I just, I was, I was absolutely terrible in these auditions. And when I had auditioned for Last Respects, I overheard Leonardo DiCaprio talking with Toby. Oh, sorry. With Artie Robb. And he said to Arty that he couldn't make the movie because he thought the movie wasn't well written. I'd been writing my whole life, and so when I ever had this conversation where Leo was unhappy with the script, I zoned in on an Arty Robin. I was like, I can help you. I can write this. I can help you write this. And he gave me a shot. You know, they said, yeah, come right with us. You know, we don't want to lose DiCaprio. And so I began writing on a project then called Last Respects, which eventually Leonardo DiCaprio totally crushed, you know, because we could not save the script. But it was my. It was sort of the, the, the gateway into where, like as soon as that, that, that moment happened where I realized, I'm not an actor, I'm a writer. I'm supposed to be here doing this. And then the doors just flew open. So Arty Robb gave me the opportunity. We wrote the, the hell out of that, that short. But it wasn't. It never rose to the standard that DiCaprio wanted. And so he eventually said, no, I can't. I can't do this project. They're going to scrap the project.
- [16:07]
Joanne (Interviewer)
You guys were looking for a film that could feature Leo specifically because you wanted his star power to kind of boost the film's chances.
- [16:16]
Dale Wheatley
No, it had nothing to do with that. Actually. Leonardo DiCaprio saw it as an opportunity where he could help his friends, because obviously, he's killing it in the business. This could be a great opportunity for his friends, and he recognized that as an opportunity for his friends. So to the extent that Leo wanted to help his friends, there, there was that sort of energy, but the real energy behind it. And they had done Goofy before. They were shooting little high eight movies, one called Connect 4 that, you know, if you ever got to see, would you just squeal laughing? I mean, it's just like in a DV cam. It's just absolutely ridiculous. So it was really just a. A movie that was supposed to be made between friends. And yes, of course, everybody wants the best outcome. So nobody got involved in the movie thinking that it was, you know, for anything other than to improve their opportunities and in life and. And to give themselves an opportunity also to put their. Their talent on display.
- [17:11]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Okay, okay, tell me. Tell me the origin story of Don's Plum.
- [17:17]
Dale Wheatley
We did a table reading of Last Respects. We were doing a table read at Leo's house. He had a group of people who were hanging out with him. It was a Friday night, and he was heading to the Viper Room, his patient. He didn't have very, you know, I don't know, there was an impatience to him. So there was just like a really bad energy. So the table went horribly, and it basically killed the movie. This was now the second time that Leo was totally unhappy with the script, and that pretty much, you know, sort of sealed the fate of the movie. Last Respects. One of the producers that we were working with, a guy by the name of David Stuttman, he had an idea that he had been working on with another writer, but he pitched it to Leonardo DiCaprio as an alternative to Last Respects. And Leo responded well to it. They were like, it's up to you, dude. We all want to do this. Do you want to do it? And Leo's like, yeah, fuck it, let's do it. And so that was the birth of Don's Plum. I was attached as a writer in that moment.
- [18:07]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Can you just give me the sort of, like, the elevator pitch on Don's Plum?
- [18:11]
Dale Wheatley
So on the surface, Don's Plum is about a bunch of guys who, every Saturday night, they meet at a diner. Their objective is to bring a girl with them and they just have this, you know, sort of fun time hanging out and just shooting the throughout the night. So that's sort of the surface of it. What we saw was an opportunity to do something generational. We saw an opportunity because we in Hollywood, and I don't know if this is something that was like, you know, geographical or, you know, cultural in Hollywood. So we'd go party or whatever till two in the morning and then we would head to a Denny's or to a place called Jerry's. Famous Deli. In, in Los Angeles is one of our favorite spots. And we would go there and then we'd hang out there until 5 or 6 o' clock in the morning, kind of wearing off our drunk with, you know, stale fries and, you know, matzo ball soup. And so when David pitched this idea, it was something we all immediately identified with. It was also something that we did. And so we recognized this as an opportunity to do something where we could like, really speak about our generation and where we are versus where things in the world were. From my perspective, I wanted to show the world that from generation to generation, we're all very similar. And that that's really what I thought Don's fun was about. But in the end, we're going to make it out okay. You know, in the end, you know, we might be really difficult to watch. We might be even more difficult to like. But in the end, we're going to be able to inherit this earth and do the right thing with it. Now, I might have been wrong about that, but at the time, that's what it felt like.
- [19:36]
Joanne (Interviewer)
That's great. I mean, it's, it's big. That's aspirational.
- [19:40]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah. I mean, I think when you're in a place like Hollywood, you know, thinking big comes with breakfast. So, you know, shooting for the stars is. I mean, if you're, if you're in Hollywood, it's. It's a lot easier to do, right?
- [19:51]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so. So you were the writer on the project and then your, your friend R.D. r.D. He directed.
- [20:01]
Dale Wheatley
I produced and wrote and are directed and produced.
- [20:05]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Okay, so take, take me through production. You know, what did that look like?
- [20:09]
Dale Wheatley
We shot for three days in the Valley in Hollywood. It's the most magical thing. Dude, let me tell you, man. I don't know. There are moments in my life that I've had, and Don's Plum is just one of them where you can just feel like the real artistic moment has happened. Sometimes it's like very personal. Sometimes it just happens, you know, with the individual. And then other times, like, there's a magic that. That permeates the entire crew, everybody around you. Don's Plum was just magic. From top to bottom. We did things that should not have been able to be done. We shot in three days. We shot 75 minutes, 77 minutes worth of a feature film. You know, it's just. It's just an insane pace. And all of that achievement, all of that remarkable achievement was attributed not to any individual whatsoever, but to this incredible synergy. I hate to use the word, but this incredible synergy that I've never felt since inter. To that. To that degree, it was as if we were all tuned into one thing. It was amazing. And it felt. You know, it felt. Yeah, it felt metaphysical. It was. It was just absolutely amazing. You know who Joseph Campbell is?
- [21:21]
Joanne (Interviewer)
I do.
- [21:23]
Dale Wheatley
I.
- [21:23]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Maybe I know the name.
- [21:24]
Dale Wheatley
Joseph Campbell is, like, famous for writing a hero with a thousand faces. And he once said, based on his research, he once said about people that if they follow their bliss, that the universe will conspire to help them, that doors that couldn't have otherwise been opened will suddenly open for them. And he said that this was not something that he was guessing at. This was something he witnessed throughout his life as a man who worked with people who followed their bliss. He was like, he. It's just. It's almost like magic. And this was. And I didn't even know Joseph Campbell at the time, so I heard him say this much later in my life, long after Don's Plum. But it explained everything. I was like, oh, it was the universe conspiring to make it happen because it couldn't make sense of how everything could be so perfect that we could shoot nearly 30 pages a day for three days in a row. It was just magic beyond belief, really.
- [22:18]
Joanne (Interviewer)
And tell me about the improv process, because, I mean, I was watching it again last night. It strikes me how a lot of the conversation around this table at the diner is pretty heavy on conflict. You know, there's a lot of shouting across this table. And it occurred to me, like, you know, if you get a bunch of actors just doing an improv moment, how conflict is the emotion that bubbles to the surface. And I was wondering if you had some thoughts on that.
- [22:44]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, well, I think tension is, you know, the thing that, you know, drives drama and, you know. Yeah, we just. We were always ready and willing to add tension. Leo actually added to that, you know, in terms of just adding more and more tension. But, you know, he. He. When we. When we were developing the character of Derek, played by DiCaprio, he. He wanted to make the character, you know, his. His asshole version of himself.
- [23:08]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Well, I mean, he is an asshole in the film. I'm watching it, and he's thoroughly misogynistic, you know, yelling at this woman that I'm going to throw a beer bottle at your face repeatedly, and really taunting her. And he's pretty rude to the waitress. You know, he's. He's unlikable.
- [23:22]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, he's horrible. He. He. You know, this was all by, you know, sort of his own design. Derek was supposed to be an unlikable guy, but he wasn't supposed to be as terrible as he became. But that was all Leo, man. Leo was like, I want to play myself, the asshole version of myself times 10. And we were like, go for it, man. Just fucking let your hair down, man. Have at it.
- [23:42]
Joanne (Interviewer)
The film feels very pre. Me too. You know, the men are sitting around talking about sex incessantly, and the women are kind of like, giggling and sort of following along, but there's this feeling of deep unease around the table the whole time.
- [23:55]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah.
- [23:55]
Joanne (Interviewer)
You know, and there's a moment where Leo just randomly leans over and cups this woman's boob and, you know, like, it's all just misogynistic, really. What are your thoughts on that? What do you. Where do you land on that now?
- [24:09]
Dale Wheatley
So misogyny is a part of the film, but the film is not a film of misogyny. It's a. It's a film. So, yeah, of course. I get it. I mean, listen, this is what art does, man. I mean, art is. I'm not sitting there. I'm not. I'm not trying to hold your hand. I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to provoke something. I'm trying to get real with you. I'm trying to, like, show you what's up, man. You don't. You don't step in and not get on your shoe. You know, it's. It's. It's a messy, messy world. And it was a Messy World in 1995. And misogyny was. I mean, man, this is the time when Harvey Weinstein was at his worst. We didn't know it, but this is the time when Harvey Weinstein was at his worst. Hollywood was, you know, and still is. I mean, come on. It's rife with misogyny. It's rife with. With. With inequality. And we confronted those issues. We put those issues on display. And in my opinion, and certainly by design, in terms of my writing and the writing of the others involved in the movie. We, we. We were about the women prevailing in the end, but they didn't prevail without being confront. You know, without being confronted with it. You know what I mean? The women can't beat a misogynist if there's no misogynist to beat, you know?
- [25:14]
Joanne (Interviewer)
And yes, well said.
- [25:15]
Dale Wheatley
So there's a lot of misogyny in Dan's plan. There's also a lot of women triumphing over it.
- [25:20]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Just. Just back to Leo. So you said that his performance was by his own admission, a kind of like, dialed up version of his own asshole shadow self. Yeah, I mean, I was watching this and I was just like, am I seeing the real Leo here? Is this like just the very entitled, very arrogant, vaguely violent kind of real Leo?
- [25:44]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah. I don't think you are not the one I knew at the time when I hung out with Leonardo DiCaprio. He was a gentle, kind, loving, cool guy. I appreciated him and the way that he treated people.
- [25:56]
AWS Advertiser
He.
- [25:57]
Dale Wheatley
There's. There are things that I've had my. My qualms with the guy. There were things he did that bothered me. And there are a couple instances in the book that you'll, you know, that. Where you're like. I'm like, what direction are you going in? I do believe that. That he, like most people his age, you know, was at that crossroads, that sort of, you know. Yeah. That coming of age. But no, man, he was a good guy. Leo was a good guy. You know, back in the day, you
- [26:21]
Joanne (Interviewer)
mentioned your book before just to, you know, yank on this thread a little harder.
- [26:25]
Dale Wheatley
Sure.
- [26:25]
Joanne (Interviewer)
There was a couple of pages that you highlighted in particular. It's a scene after Don's Plum had been shot in which you were at a party. I believe it was Christmas Day.
- [26:34]
Dale Wheatley
This is my apartment.
- [26:35]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Yeah. And yeah, it was Christmas Day of 95, and Leo was in bed with a woman, young television star at the time, whispering into her ear while she masturbated in front of a room full of people. And someone filmed it on a camcorder. You know, I was reading this, I was like, wow, this is. This is pretty weird. It's definitely a pretty weird moment.
- [26:59]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah.
- [26:59]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Could I just get your memories of that and what was happening in relation to the Leo that you knew?
- [27:05]
Dale Wheatley
Of course. Yeah. So as described, man, it was Christmas, 1995. I was bummed out already. I was kind of stranded in Hollywood and so. But it was made better when. When our friends came over and we started hanging out and A large group of people got together. I was smoking a cigarette outside on the porch when somebody approached me and told me that Leo was doing some crazy shit in my bedroom. I went upstairs to find him whispering into a woman's ear, but to the point, you know, whispering loud enough that we could all hear everything he was saying to her. There was a crowd. There was probably like 8, 10 people all crowded around the doorway to my bedroom. She was lying in my bed. She had her pants removed, and Leonardo DiCaprio was whispering in her ear while she masturbated and she reached climax. It was a really up moment, obviously. It's just like a really shitty moment. It felt like, you know, for me, I was like. I couldn't. I couldn't figure out what it was. You know, the one thing about Hollywood that I found incredibly strange is that it's like. It's like. It's like it. It freezes people in time. Like, I couldn't believe how immature people were. And I don't believe their immaturity was, you know, personality flaw. I really. I feel like their immaturity was. Yeah, you know, they're. They're sort of caught in this moment, and I think they're just. They kind of. They mature very, very slowly in Hollywood. And so I kind of looked at the moment as like, oh, this is the kind of shit you do when you're, like, experimenting as kids and you're 13 or 14 years old and you're in with the wrong crowd or whatever, you know, and you suddenly you're at some spin the bottle party that gets out of hand, you know?
- [28:37]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Yeah, I know. I know what you mean.
- [28:39]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah. It felt like that kind of a moment, right, where I was like, you know, it was. It was. It was just a highly inappropriate moment. I sadly believe that. That. That there is a part of him that is a misogynist, you know, and so maybe to the extent that he related to Derek a little too much there, you know, I think that was probably on display at that time. It was. It was just a disturbing moment. It was very uncomfortable moment, obviously. Yeah. And I thought it was important to tell it. Yeah.
- [29:05]
Joanne (Interviewer)
I mean, what was your read on the. The dynamic that was happening? There was this woman wanting to get with Leo and therefore doing anything that he wanted. Was it a performance? Was it weird? Like some sort of weird performance art piece? I mean, like, what was that?
- [29:20]
Dale Wheatley
I'm so glad you asked, actually, for me, it was. To me, and this is, you know, I can't get into their heads to Me. It was. You know, you talked about power earlier. This is. To me, this is what this was. This was like, this. This act of power. So the. The woman who. I have changed her name in the book, she's called Emily Foster. In the book, she was a big, giant TV star, and she loved Leo. I mean, it was so open and obvious and just ridiculous, really. Like, we. We would talk about it, we'd be like, you know, Emily needs to chill, dude. Like, she's kind of fallen all over the guy. And. And so when he did that, I was like, wow, this was a straight power play. Because he's never had any interest in her whatsoever. He was open about that with us. He was like, never in a hundred years would he ever end up hooking up with Emily. So. So I just found the whole thing really, really messed up because I felt like it was like a big power play. I just. And a lot of it was. Was confusing for me at the time. I remember just thinking, like, why are you doing this? What. What was the purpose of this? Because I knew it wasn't to get himself off. I knew it wasn't to. It was. It was a straight power play of some kind. And. And I found it very disturbing because he was taking advantage of something he knew about somebody that was otherwise kind of sweet in its. You know, like. I mean, she was sweet. Like, she. You know, she just. She was smitten and. And loved a guy who was not going to reciprocate. And his sort of. The way he handled it was to, I mean, embarrass her in front of everybody on Christmas Day. It was a humiliating experience, you know.
- [30:59]
Joanne (Interviewer)
That sucks.
- [31:00]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah.
- [31:04]
Joanne (Interviewer)
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- [32:33]
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- [33:37]
Dale Wheatley
Summer smells like citrus in the sun.
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- [33:54]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Let's get back to the the chronology of the film.
- [33:56]
Dale Wheatley
Sure.
- [33:57]
Joanne (Interviewer)
You know, you guys cut it together and there's immediately rumblings of concern and worry from from Toby and from Leo. Can you tell me about that?
- [34:06]
Dale Wheatley
Sure, yeah, of course. Well, you know, first I'll say that I think that one of the the wildest things about Don Spum was that nobody knew what we were doing except us. And so I think everyone's expectation for Don's Plumb, who made the movie, was that it was going to be garbage. So the expectation, I think, from not just Leonardo DiCaprio, but just from all of our friends, was that we were going to fail. And it was problematic for us in a big way because Unexpectedly, during those three days, we shot way more footage than we ever thought we would have. So there's a. An accusation that Leo wants to assert, that we turned a short film into a feature film. And it's a. It's a really silly accusation. What we set out to do is to make the best movie we possibly could. And we. And we ended up with the footage that we had. And so the very natural thing to do next after you shoot a movie is to cut it together. And that's all we did. We shot the movie and then we cut the movie together that we shot. But it exceeded everybody's expectations in terms of length. There was a lot of concern, because the concern was already that we were going to fail, but now we were going to fail epically. And Leonardo DiCaprio, who, while he was enjoying things like acclaim and award nominations, he had yet to strike it at the box office. All he had had was one failure after another, one super underperformer after another. And that was starting to. There was pressure building on him and his career during that time that he had better start delivering at some level and, and showing that he can build a fan base in order for Hollywood to start rolling the D and putting him into these bigger roles, which is not uncommon in Hollywood. Either you find a producer who's just going to roll the dice because they believe in the kid, or, you know, they get a series of opportunities, and those opportunities eventually lead to, you know, a breakout role. Alicia Silverstone and Clueless, for example. Right. So. So the, the, the. There was a. There was a pressure on us about Leonardo DiCaprio potentially, you know, thinking that this would be an embarrassment and that he wouldn't want it to go out. So there was a lot of tension around the film in that way. We knew when we were cutting the movie that we were cutting together something that was fucking awesome. We knew that it was going to be in the same breath as kids. We knew that it was going to be in the same breath as Clerks. Like, we knew we were cutting some classic shit together, but they didn't. They just had their assumptions and their assumption was that we were going to make a shitty movie. So through the entire post production of Don Plum, we were battling the tension of their expectations of failure that they were projecting on us was very difficult, exhausting, actually. We showed Leonardo DiCaprio the movie for the first time. When he. Leading up to that moment, he was absolutely sure that it was going to be a no, that he wasn't going to move forward with the Movie, which he had the right to. To do. So he had approval rights of the film. We show him the movie and he loved it. You know, we ended up screening it for him. On June 21, 1996, we screened it for Leonardo DiCaprio at MGO. So what is this? This is what, June, what, 20, whatever. Almost exactly. Almost 30 years to the day. We screened the film for Leonardo DiCaprio very publicly. There was like 200 people there, and this dude was jumping out of his seat, laughing, smacking the ground in front of him, high fiving the actors around whom he sat. All of our friends, of course, they're high fiving each other. It was the most euphoric night of my life because Leo at that point was like, I felt like he was going to be a definite no. I just felt like, oh, like I work so hard and this is all going to go down. It was like swirling in the bowl, the whole thing in the moment, you know, leading up to that screening, the whole thing was just swirling in the damn bowl. But the movie is, is so strong, and especially in 1995, like, nobody was shooting full improv movies with Academy Award nominated actors. That shit was not happening in Hollywood, you know? And we did it all under the radar. No agents knew we were doing it, no managers knew we'd do it. We had complete autonomy. A rare, rare opportunity in Hollywood, especially when you're working with somebody who has the kind of. Who had the kind of career brewing that DiCaprio had.
- [38:07]
Joanne (Interviewer)
So, I mean, how did the dynamic shift from this, from jubilation from Leo to. No, shut this thing down.
- [38:14]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, well, so first of all, Leo, he had to get his reps involved. So after he watched the movie and loved the movie, he was like, you got to go show the movie to my agents and then we'll take it from there. So we got invited to Creative Artist Agency caa, one of the biggest agencies in the world. And they, like, loved the movie immediately. They signed the director, my buddy Arty Rob. They also signed on to rep the movie. They greenlit the dicabrio end of it. His agent. We're like, leo's on board. We're good, we're on board, we're good to go. So at that point, in that moment, all my dreams came true, dude. Like, let me tell you, you have no idea. Like, I at times would drink water for food, right? Like to fill my belly, I would drink water so that I could preoccupy my mind enough to not think about my hunger. That's The. The life I was living in Hollywood, I was, you know, I was broke, beyond broke. And we already had, like, offers coming from the screening that we did for Leo. So we already knew that we were going to be looking at seven figures. And, like, we made the movie for under a hundred grand. So we're like, I'm about to get paid. I'm about to launch my career. Toby, on the other hand, he. He was still in New York. And here's what happened, man. So after that, we screened it for Toby Maguire and his manager, Eric Krensler. And there was tension around that screening, without a doubt. And it was weird tension because he admired the film. Toby. So Toby admired the film, but there was tension, and I couldn't really understand the tension. And it got brought up and I confronted it and Toby, like, denied it. He was like, no, no, I'm gonna do whatever Leo wants to do with this movie. I'm on board in that moment. I believe, and this is anecdotal, this is totally on me, but I believe that. That. That Toby Maguire believe that. That Leo was going to turn the movie down. So I think that. That. That he thought that Leo was going to be like, hey, guys, you did. You did good. There's no way I can release this. And I think that's what was going on in Toby's mind, and it gave Toby the perfect out. He didn't have to disappoint his friends. Just a lot of people involved. All of the friends were involved in this movie. But I believe that Toby Maguire and his manager wanted to build a good boy image, a boy next door image for Toby. That was the niche he was going to fill in Hollywood. You've seen Don's Plum, Toby's. There was a scene that got cut where he talks about masturbating and putting his pinky up his butt. And, you know, it's like, you know, really revealing stuff. Not the kind of stuff that would build a boy next door image if it became a highly popular teenage, you know, art house film. Like, Kids was. So I believe that he was expecting Leo to completely shut the movie down. He wasn't at the screening. The screening was a wild. I mean, a wild success. I mean, standing ovation at the end. I mean, people cheering. We partied our ass off that night to celebrate that we were. That we had made this independent film that was going to probably, you know, make them leave a mark, you know, in the industry. So Toby then shows up at my. At our door. I mean, he actually called and he said, I got to talk to you about Don's Plummet. Something's really bothering me. And we were like, yeah, come on over. Said, all right, I'll cook you some dinner. And he showed up with a Ralph's bag, that's our local grocery store with a couple boxes of macaroni and cheese in it. And he wanted to talk about Don's plum and make us some. Some good old fashioned Mac and cheese, which I don't know if like, box Mac and cheese is in Australia, what it is here, but here it's, it's. It's poor man's food. So he showed up with. With some craft dinner, as I like to call it, and he, he made us a box of macaroni and cheese. And it was there that he. He just broke down mentally and started screaming that he wanted Don's punk to burn. And it was just all this anger and animosity that I didn't understand where it was coming from. Caught me completely off guard. He's always a pain in the ass. Like when we were hanging out, he was always a pain in the ass. But this was something entirely different and very difficult.
- [42:00]
Joanne (Interviewer)
In what way was Toby Maguire a pain in the ass?
- [42:02]
Dale Wheatley
He's always like, you know, he's always like. He's like the guy who's always objecting to something. He's like, you know, he's like that friend who like, won't like, go along with everybody's idea because one thing isn't right that everybody else doesn't want, but he wants it. And so he's just going to sort of hold everybody back. I don't know. I mean, he's just. He's. He's kind of a stir, you know, he was back then, and he would do it in sort of like, really sort of manipulative ways. But anyway, so Tobey Maguire showed up. He wanted Don's plum to burn. Caught us all off guard. I ended up spending the entire night with him. It was like within 24 hours, he completely destroyed Don's plum and every single relationship I had that involved that film or anyone peripherally associated to that film. I basically lost all of my friends that night in that single evening. And what did he do? Well, we, we. Well, you know, he showed up, he's screaming he wants Don's Plum to burn, so on and so forth. It's. Me and RD are living together, so we try to calm him down. RD eventually just goes to sleep. But I'm totally nervous because I don't. I know I can Sense that he's on a war path for this movie, and I want to stop him. I want to put an end to it. So I'm like, look, you know, so he. He invites me out. He's. He was going to Alcoholics Anonymous at the time, and I don't mind telling you that because it's. It's public knowledge that he was attending aa, but he invited me to aa. He. And he kept saying that I. I had. That I was an alcoholic. He said I was an alcoholic. And, you know, he's. I. You know, I didn't believe I was, but he wasn't wrong about my ability to, you know, drink a ton. You know, I definitely. I've seen my share of rough mornings. We'll say they're all behind me now, but, you know, I was partying hard back in the day, and he used that. So he kept saying, you know, Dale, you need to get help, blah, blah, blah. So we spend the entire night together, and he starts getting in this, like, weird state where he said, like, I know that nothing was perfect with Don's plum. I know there was some. And I just. I need you to be honest with me. I need you to put it out in the open. And I was telling Toby, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you want, dude. He was like, don't tell me that. Everything was just, like, you know, above board. There was some shit. And I was like, there was no. Nobody did anything. There was nothing behind anybody's back. He just kept insisting and insisting, and at one point, I was like, first of all, I was fading in and out, and we're talking like, 4, 5, 6 in the morning. I'd been up all night defending myself against this guy. At some point, he's. At some point, I. I remembered a statement that one of the other producers made after Leonardo DiCaprio blew up. So I have to back up a little bit, if you don't mind. Prior. Prior to the June 21 screening at MGM Studios for Leonardo DiCaprio, a an article ran in Variety that announced Don's plum was made. This was really, absolutely a direct violation of our agreement with Leonardo DiCaprio. So it was kind of a mistake on my part. But when Leo saw this article, he flipped out. He was mad. We tell this other producer, his name is Jerry Matters. We tell him, well, look, dude, I'm telling you right now, Leo's probably just going to turn down Don's Plump, like, we blew it. We screwed up. We put that fucking article out. And he's so mad that he's probably just going to shut it down on principle alone. Like, that's how we felt. Well, his producer got totally angry about it and he said at one point he was like. Because we were talking about how mad Leo was about this little article coming out, he goes, well, if Leo's going to be like that, at least he knows we have a voice in the press. Which was like, you know, when, when it happened, we didn't care much about it because we were like, oh yeah, I'm sure he's fucking terrified of us. You know, I mean, we were absolutely nobody nothings and no press was going to cover us for shit. It was a silly statement made in defense of what was this, like, you know, really offensive, aggressive attitude coming out of DiCaprio over something rather stupid, frankly. I mean, it was like a. The article that he was bitching about was this like, just a mere mention in a trade. It wasn't People magazine. We were just trying to let distributors know that we made a movie and it might be for sale, you know, I mean, that's how you let them know. So I told Toby, I was like, yeah, well, there was this one thing, there was a producer. And he said, well, at least we have a voice in the press. Toby flipped that into me, confessing that if Leonardo DiCaprio wasn't going to play ball with us, that we were planning to pit the press against him. So he, he totally flipped this, like, narrative, which was actually stupid. Like, we, I told him, Toby, at the time, I was like, dude, it was like a stupid, flippant remark made out of like, anger and frustration and, and fear, frankly, because we knew that Leo could in a, in a moment shut Don's plum down with one word. No. So he, he basically told Leo that I confessed that we were going to put the press against Leonardo DiCaprio. I, you know, during that night, he was talking, you know, we were talking about Leo and our relationship with Leo. And I had mentioned a couple of things that Leo did in the recent weeks, months really leading up to this one was with Emily Foster, right? That just stayed with me. He did another couple, like, jokes where it was like, at the expense of other people that I thought was really, like, shitty. It's like, why are you making people like, you know, there's, you know, punching down kind of stuff. And I told him about that in the, in, in that meeting. And so he convinced Leo that I had said that I had hated Leonardo DiCaprio. I couldn't be further from the truth, but this is what he convinced Leo of. So. So Leo went instantly ballistic. Crazy. And I mean instantly. Like, we got called to his house that day. This all happened overnight. Went to the AA meeting with. With Toby, begged Toby to just not do what he was about to do. Toby said, I'm calling a meeting with the friends. We're gonna have a big meeting. We had the meeting at Kevin Connolly's house. They dismantled us, me and rd. I mean, it was like, so abusive. It was just. It was. It was a traumatic night. But in that moment, I lost all my friendships. Leo basically swore he was gonna destroy us. And that's what he went on to do and, and. And destroy the movie as well. So the saddest part of all of this is that he did all of this in one night. He didn't listen, he didn't do any investigating. He didn't question anything. And so Leo went on an absolute rampage. And from that day forward, my entire Hollywood experience changed. I mean, overnight I. It was so instant. Every major relationship I had died. All the major offers coming in for Don's Plum were withdrawn. We had gotten a three picture deal with Danny DeVito's Jersey Films, and he gave us a three picture, three million dollar deal. He was like, how much did you make this movie for? We were like, we made it for 100 grand. He's like, well, I'm gonna give you a million dollars for three budgets. You're gonna make three movies for Jersey Films, three indies. So all that got blocked. And yeah, it was the end of my dreams on that day, really.
- [48:53]
Joanne (Interviewer)
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- [49:32]
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- [50:08]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Do you find it affecting to talk about to this day?
- [50:12]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, I do. It's. It's. It's less so now. I'll tell you, man, writing Too Real was the most cathartic thing I could have done for myself.
- [50:20]
Joanne (Interviewer)
And this is your memoir, correct?
- [50:23]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, the memoir that really kind of takes you through it, but it was incredibly cathartic and. But, yeah, I mean, it's the most disturbing thing. You know, there's so much that goes through your mind. Obviously, there's pain, there's anger, but there's also regret. Like, I do feel like while they did so much, really everything they could to destroy my life and career, I also didn't find a way out. And, you know, at 56 years old, I. I constantly questioned how. Why didn't I. Like, how. What did I. You know? And I know that, like, here's the weirdest thing about this thing, man. My eye changed from one day to the next. I changed. Like, I had a spirit. I had a creativity. I had a freedom. I had a. I don't know if you've heard this from musicians where they talk about how, like, the song comes to them. They don't talk about, like, how they're brilliant musicians. In fact, they say, this could have been anybody, dude. It just happened to be me. But this song was coming out of the universe, and I got it. Well, I really believe in this sort of wildly spiritual idea of art. I do believe that. You know, I'm kind of going back to that Joseph Campbell comment where he talked about how you're following your bliss, you know, invokes this. The. The universe in a conspiracy to. To make this. This dream come true. And. And that was. I believe that the universe had been conspiring at that point in my life to. To bring out all of my talent and to put it to the test, but to also put it on display. But, yeah, there was a fire in me that was just a creativity. I can't even explain it. Like, I could write. Like, man, it just. Everything was flowing through me. It was amazing. And it, like, got turned off. Like, A tap, like, it was gone. It was. Like it was soul crushing. And so, yeah, I have all these regrets, like, why didn't I do. Why couldn't I find a way? Why didn't I just start over as a PA and just work my way up or, you know, like, just all these different questions that I have for myself sometimes. But I'm always reminded, though, as the thoughts kind of, you know, linger long enough that. That my spirit was destroyed that day. And. And when your spirit gets destroyed, you know, that's. That's. That's the effect of trauma. Right. That, you know, trauma can. Can break you and then you're just not. I was just. I've never been the same. The same person. I mean, my sense of humor has never returned. I mean, it's back enough. I make people laugh. I mean, that's my wife. But, you know, I've never been the same artist. I think the book is the closest thing I've come to becoming restored as an artist. It was. I felt so, like, alive again and creatively in being able to reconstruct these events and these conversations and these emotions and almost reconciling with it a little bit in the same process. So it's been a. It's been a blessing in that way. But, yeah, I mean, every day I'll never not hurt for what happened here. And I'll always wonder what. What life could have been, you know, as it's. It sucks because I really want to be Dao. You know, What I really want to be is like, oh, no, I'm good. I feel great, you know?
- [53:28]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [53:29]
Dale Wheatley
But I don't.
- [53:30]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Yeah. Do you feel okay most of the time and then this thing, this memory will come back and get you, or do you feel like it's just sort of taken a bit of a permanent percentage of the wind out of your sails?
- [53:44]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, I kind of feel like it's in my pigment, you know, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't think, like, I've lived through a lot of trauma, sadly. I had a very traumatic childhood, and then I had this. These are. That was the sort of. The pinnacle of. Of my trauma really, was this. Part of the reason was because when I was going through the childhood trauma, I always knew that I would escape it because I'm going to grow up and they're eventually not going to be able to do the things that they're doing to me. I'm going to survive this. I could see the light because I could see myself Getting an inch taller every few months. And I was like, man, it's coming. I'm gonna get out of this situation. When this. This trauma hit, it was, you know, it was. It was. It was at a time when I. Like, I was an adult, you know, I didn't expect this. I. I expected, like, fair shakes, you know? Yeah. It's just something that I. I don't think will ever leave. I still talk to Artie Rob, you know. You know. You know what Artie Rob says half the time? We really got over, dude. 30 years later, we really got over, bro.
- [54:41]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [54:41]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah, we did. You know, you'll see something like the Duffer Brothers or so the Duplass Brothers. I remember one specifically. You know, him. Him texting me when the Duplass Brothers kind of, like, broke out and had their moment. He was like, this could have been us, dude. This could have been us. You know, because you just live in that sort of again, you know, I mean, I had the world. I had the world in my hands, you know, this was not. This is not a small deal. This was, you know, millions of dollars, millions and. And wild, unfathomable opportunities. So, you know, it was a. It's just a loss that's so immeasurable. But I think the worst. The worst of it all was the. We were, like, ostracized from our groups of friends. So, you know, I was surrounded by people, 40, 50 people who were like, my closest friends. I got dwindled down to maybe three.
- [55:28]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Have you heard from Toby or Leo in the years since?
- [55:32]
Dale Wheatley
No. I saw Leonardo DiCaprio the last time I saw him. Where we, like, interacted, it was 20 plus years ago, but I was in a New York club, and he was walking toward me, and he saw me, and he made a fist and he bit it. I was like, it's your thumb, dude. I literally said that. I was like, it's your thumb. You want to bite your thumb, not your fucking fist. But, yeah, like, weirdest reaction that I was like, I. I actually came across Toby once as well, but we kind of just moved away from each other. Like, we just avoided each other at all costs. But no, haven't. I have not spoken to them. You know, last time I spoke to them was during the settlement in 1998. 99. Sorry.
- [56:14]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Tell me about settlement.
- [56:16]
Dale Wheatley
You know, there's. It was super messy. So eventually, the. The case, or eventually, here's what happened. Leonardo DiCaprio became the biggest star in the world. Before that, no. No lawyer would touch our case. But as soon as it became the biggest star in the world, suddenly lawyers were like, hey, we'll take your case. Hey, we'll look at your case. Before Titanic, Leonardo DiCaprio wasn't worth very much. There wasn't really anything to sue for. So if you couldn't pay the retainer and the hourly, no lawyer was going to take that case. So after Leo hit, all these lawyers started calling the producer, David Stutman. He ended up landing the biggest litigator in town, a guy by the name of Burt Fields. And we filed a lawsuit. Depositions followed. Case dragged on for a few more months, and finally our attorney, they said that they were going to drop us unless we settled the case. So they called for a settlement. We were kind of forced into one about two in the morning.
- [57:07]
Wayfair Advertiser
We.
- [57:07]
Dale Wheatley
We agreed to. To settle the case.
- [57:09]
Joanne (Interviewer)
And so did you make some money?
- [57:11]
Dale Wheatley
Not. No. I. My. So I spent two years making the movie, and then I spent another four or five years fighting for it. And my. My earnings to date are $186 after taxes. Yeah.
- [57:26]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Geez, that's an atrocious hourly rate.
- [57:29]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah. Not a good hourly rate. Yeah. I got 186 bucks for my role in Donsplum because I play a small role where I play a homeless person. And I was like, I play a version of my future self. So. Hopeless dude.
- [57:43]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Oh, God.
- [57:44]
Dale Wheatley
Yeah.
- [57:45]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Is there any silver lining in this story, though?
- [57:48]
Dale Wheatley
Isn't, you know, silver lining? It's gonna be a method. Think about that. There's no silver lining in Don's plum because when you destroy art, you destroy freedom. When you destroy art, you destroy love. When you destroy art, you destroy lives, you destroy culture. And of all people, Leonardo DiCaprio should know that. And so I decided to write an open letter to Leonardo DiCaprio. And in that letter, I. I said, you're not bigger than the films that you acted. You're just not bigger than the films you act in. And I believe that's true for Don's Plummet. I don't care how smelled small. Don Splum is. Don's plum is bigger than Leonardo DiCaprio. Don's plummet is not Leonardo DiCaprio. Don't spell him. Is the some in substance of dozens of artists who lived an inspired moment in their lives and got it on celluloid during one of the most inspiring independent film moments in American history. And Leonardo DiCaprio, who, on his acceptance speech for the Revenant SAG Award, told the actors in the audience that they need to embrace and learn the history of film to stand on the shoulders of giant, the giants who've come before them. And while he is doing that, he was actively suppressing the work of actors in a movie that we know now has inspired some of the best work that's been made in. In recent time, you know. So Don's plum is bigger than Leonardo DiCaprio, so he might be able to put, like the hood over its head while living, but eventually, Leonardo DiCaprio will expire from this earth. Eventually, his fight to suppress Don's plumb will die with his last breath. And when it does, Don's Plum will continue, as will his legacy. And my job right now, I feel like my job right now, and I'll. And I'll carry this torch until I die, is to make sure that the true story of Don's plum gets. Gets. Gets told and that. And it's a really simple story when you. When you think about it, it's a very simple story. Friends came together. They made a beautiful piece of art, controversial though it may be, and greed destroyed it, and greed took it apart. And, you know, I'm just gonna keep fighting for it.
- [60:00]
Joanne (Interviewer)
Amen. I hope you get to see some justice, and I hope Don's Plum gets the worldwide release that it deserves one day someday.
- [60:09]
Dale Wheatley
Thank you so much.
- [60:12]
Joanne (Interviewer)
That's it for today. And a huge shout out to our intern, Keely Milliken, who was the one who first brought me Dale's story. Thank you, Keely. You're amazing. And you can actually watch Dale's film Don's plum on his YouTube channel. The link is in the show notes. Go and check it out. It's a really interesting watch. Stick around, though, because this week's subscriber episode is a fascinating one. I'm speaking with Simon Miraudo, who is an Australian film critic and an expert on banned and lost films. And we're going to talk about other films that have never seen the light of day, including the original cut of Star Wars. So Australia originally demanded that George Lucas cut one particular scene, and we didn't have access to his original picture here in Australia in the 1970s. It's interesting. If you haven't heard that one before, go and check it out. That's our subscriber episode this week. For the rest of you, I'll see you next week. What it Was like is produced by Rachel Tuffery. This episode was edited by Ellie Dickey, who also does our research. Our cover art is by Rich Akers. Our theme music was produced by Jimmy Saunders. And this whole thing has been a super real production.
- [61:38]
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