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- [00:00]
Julian Morgans
Only Boost Mobile.
- [00:01]
Jill Dodd
Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service.
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Julian Morgans
Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.
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Casey (Casefile podcast host)
New 5G phone.
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Jill Dodd
Enough.
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Julian Morgans
But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Taxes extra for the device and service. Plan online only.
- [00:15]
Jill Dodd
From the Cascades to PDX to your kitchen, we recycle like we live here.
- [00:21]
RealReal Podcast Announcer
That's why governments, brands, and recycling companies.
- [00:23]
Jill Dodd
Are all joining together to bring change to make recycling better. As in trusting that your recyclables end up in the right places to be made into new things and having brands help fund the cost of recycling.
- [00:36]
RealReal Podcast Announcer
You can find the Latest updates@recycleon.org Oregon.
- [00:40]
Jill Dodd
From Mount Hood to the bin under your desk. Together we can do this.
- [00:45]
RealReal Podcast Announcer
This podcast is supported by the Real Real. Meet Christine. She loves shopping. And this is the sound of fashion overload. Too many fabulous things, not enough space. So Christine started selling with the RealReal.
- [00:59]
Jill Dodd
I've always loved collecting designer pieces, Gucci bags, Prada heels. But my style keeps evolving. Selling with the RealReal. Game changer. I earn more. And they do everything.
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RealReal Podcast Announcer
Seriously. Just drop off your items or schedule a pickup. We handle the photos, descriptions, pricing, even shipping. You just sit back and watch your items sell fast to our 38 million members.
- [01:21]
Jill Dodd
And I get peace of mind knowing I earn more selling with the RealReal than anywhere else.
- [01:25]
RealReal Podcast Announcer
Exactly this. That's the sound of your closet working for you. The Real Real. Earn more, save time, sell fast. And right now you can get an extra $100 site credit when you sell for the first time. Go to therealreal.com to get your extra hundred dollars. Therealreal.com that's therealreal.com.
- [01:49]
Jill Dodd
Super real. Then he asked if he could take me on a tour of the boat. He showed me his private suite, which was very James Bond. There were, like, revolving walls and he had like a fur cover on his bed. Some kind of real fur.
- [02:11]
Julian Morgans
Cool.
- [02:11]
Jill Dodd
And they actually used his boat in a James Bond movie.
- [02:14]
Julian Morgans
Really?
- [02:14]
Jill Dodd
It was that, like, outrageous.
- [02:17]
Julian Morgans
Was it a super yacht?
- [02:18]
Jill Dodd
It was the largest yacht in the world. And there was a helicopter on top. And he had ski boats inside the boat. He had a hospital downstairs. He said that in case anyone needed heart surgery, you could do heart surgery in that hospital. He took me down into this small room with a couch in it that was just really small and cozy. And I wanted him to kiss me. I really started liking him, like, right away.
- [02:43]
Julian Morgans
Hey, I'm Julian Morgans, and you're listening to what It Was like, the show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. So if you've been listening to this show for a while, you'll have heard me say things like this before, but I'm gonna say it again. I think that the point of this show is to take you inside moments in history, or maybe just like, tropes from pop culture, and to not just talk about them, but to kind of let you know what it felt like to be there. So, for example, you know the story of 9 11, big, famous story. A lot of us remember it. We all know of it, but. But last week we took you there. Or like Princess Diana, for example, last year, we did an episode where we actually spoke to one of the paparazzi who was there when Princess Di was killed in a car accident. So. So these are big moments, pop culture, or big moments in history, and we actually take you there. That's the idea. That's the whole show. And today. Today we're taking you to not so much like a moment in history as just like a really famous story, kind of just in. In culture. Like, this is a. This is a story that we've all heard a million times before, and it's the Cinderella story. So it's the story of a beautiful young woman who meets a powerful man, falls in love, and gains access to his glamorous world. And you've seen this play out in Pretty Woman, Fifty Shades of Grey. It's really the whole narrative arc in Sex and the City with, you know, Carrie and Mr. Big. And there's a bazillion other versions of this stretch probably thousands of years. But in real life, these stories are just way less glittery. And I think that's because there's always an exchange happening. The exchange is kind of like financial freedom in return for sex and beauty. Basically, it comes down to feminine sexuality as a form of currency. And my guest today knows this firsthand. Jill Dodd grew up in Los angeles, and by 17, she was an international model. And then one night, she went to a party where she met a Saudi billionaire. He's a weapons dealer, and in the 1980s, he was one of the richest men in the world. His name was Adnan Khashoggi. And they fell in love. And for a year and a half, she lived in his world of super yachts and mansions around the world. And only later did she really learn the truth about what had happened. So Khashoggi actually paid her modeling agent to send her to a party to meet him. And she'd actually been chosen, or really she'd kind of been just purchased after Khashoggi had seen her in some headshots. And it was this brutal realization that she'd been basically treated like a product. This is a, this is a really interesting story just as it is. But, but Jill's story also has this other really unexpected twist to it because after they broke up, Khashoggi paid for her to attend fashion school. And years later, Jill actually founded a company, a surfwear brand that you'll have definitely heard of. So the brand is called Roxy. And I think it's fair to say that Jill single handedly changed surfware by making it for women as well as men. But that story too also ends with objectification. So to be clear, the Roxy story, that's going to be our bonus episode this week. She's going to talk about how she created Roxy and how she ultimately was pushed out of the brand that she'd built without ever receiving the kind of payday you'd have imagined. Anyway, that's the bonus app. But in this app, we're going to hear Jill's experience of dating a billionaire. It's a story with a lot of glitz and glamour, but heads up, it also features a fair bit of sexual assault. So do just a trigger warning there, but I think it's a really important story because it highlights the hidden costs that women have always had to pay just to get ahead. So let's begin. Here is Jill Dodd. Hey, Jill. Welcome to the show.
- [07:07]
Jill Dodd
Good morning.
- [07:08]
Julian Morgans
How have you been?
- [07:09]
Jill Dodd
Good. I mean, you know, up and down. Yeah, definitely. Life throws me things.
- [07:16]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. Yeah. It seems like you've, you've had a few things thrown at you by life. I mean, that's kind of why we're here, I guess. It's. Yeah, you wouldn't be here if you hadn't had some things thrown at you. So let's, let's talk about how you got into modeling. Do you, do you remember that there was a period in your life, Was there like some sort of time where you just suddenly clocked that people were looking at you differently or like, how did, how did this sort of come about?
- [07:42]
Jill Dodd
Well, I fell into it accidentally when I answered an ad for a fit model in the garment industry of Los Angeles. And it was at a swimwear company. And I was hired to be the fit model to. You would basically form the bathing suits to my body. And I had the measurements that were like A good average American size and proportion that then you could make larger and smaller sizes from my size.
- [08:11]
Julian Morgans
Okay.
- [08:13]
Jill Dodd
And then they asked me to go on the photo shoot with the models to put everybody in the right swimsuits. And the photographer fired one of the girls on the spot and said, why? Why isn't she in a suit? To me. And then I ended up in the photo shoot, and. And I was paid like the other girls. And then I was like, wait, I could maybe make more money at this than the 425 an hour I was making at my assistant designer fit model job.
- [08:45]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. Yeah.
- [08:46]
Jill Dodd
So I got an agent. So I was probably 18, just turning 18.
- [08:52]
Julian Morgans
And was this pretty exciting at the time where you're like, yeah, you know, modeling is sort of glamorous. It sort of opens up the world a little bit. Or did it just feel like a means to an end?
- [09:00]
Jill Dodd
I was nervous. I was really nervous. I. I was very insecure, and it's. I wasn't, like, I was confident in certain ways, but then I was not confident in a lot of other ways, definitely.
- [09:15]
Julian Morgans
Okay, so that's what you were doing for a couple of years, right?
- [09:19]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, I actually modeled for 10 years, but, yeah, I did it in California for a couple of years, I guess, or maybe it was a good year and a half. And then I went to Paris for a year, and then I came back and continued modeling in Los Angeles.
- [09:34]
Julian Morgans
Okay. Okay. And can you tell me how Adnan Khashoggi first came into your life? You know, how old were you? What. How did that come about?
- [09:45]
Jill Dodd
So how I got to Adnan was my. My booker named Pamela. I changed her name in my book to Pepper, but her name is Pamela. And a bunch of us models who are older now, who we all worked at the same time in Paris back in 1980 and 81, we all had Pamela as a booker. We've all got the same stories, but they would make us go to these parties where they were all politicians and older men. And when you would refuse, like, I refused finally to go to these parties, because I was. I would get attacked by men at the parties. And so I said, I'm not going to these parties anymore. And Gerald heard me, and he came down from his little platform that he sat on, and he says, no parties, no interviews. So if you don't go to the parties, you're not going to work.
- [10:38]
Julian Morgans
Right.
- [10:39]
Jill Dodd
So that was, you know, clear that this was connected somehow. And then after several months, Pamela asked if I wanted to go to Monte Carlo with her. And by that point, I had been attacked by photographers. I'd gone through so much by that point. And so I said, how much will it cost? I really need a vacation. And she said, oh, it's free. It's free. And I said, nothing's free, but I want to go. I want to get out of town, so I'll bring cash and I can run really fast. And that was how I got around on my modeling jobs, too, because the photographers would have cost you. And there were jobs that if you agreed up front to sleep with the photographer, you could do l in the Caribbean, you know, which was the best editorial. So it was very out in the open.
- [11:36]
Julian Morgans
It sounds like such a predatory environment. Yeah, Just this open secret that they're running. Just this. This, like, this jungle. It, like, it's just awful. I'm hearing this, and I'm just so sorry. Like, I'm sorry that you had to go or that you lived in this environment. So. So you get invited to this party in Monte Carlo. Take me through it. What happens?
- [12:00]
Jill Dodd
So Pamela, my booker, and I fly to Monte Carlo. We're taken to the Lowe's Hotel, and she said, we're going to go to this party tonight, and we'll meet everybody in the lobby. And I'm like, everybody? I didn't know who everybody was. There was this man, and I'm going to say his name publicly for the first time right now. His name is Victor Dinenza, and he's not alive anymore, but in my book, I call him Dominic. He was basically. He was Adnan's pimp, to put it in. He would find women for Adnan. That was his job. And his wife Anna was sort of a Ghislaine Maxwell figure. Not as extreme, but her job was to make us feel comfortable. So we're invited to this party overlooking the Mediterranean. And it was a huge party. It was for Adnan Khashoggi's daughter, Nambila. I think she was turning 18. And there were, I don't know, maybe 30, 35 people at this party. And it was wild. It was like. There was a bonfire, and there were just. It was on the cliff overlooking the Mediterranean Sea.
- [13:27]
Julian Morgans
Wow. In Monaco. That sounds like an expensive piece of real estate.
- [13:32]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, it was a very expensive party. So, you know, we get out of the car and, you know, you can hear the music that sounded like Spanish guitars, Gypsy King kind of music. Just beautiful and wild. And as. As we got closer, you could see that the people who worked at the restaurant were all dressed as pirates. And it was called. The restaurant was called La Pirit. Like the pirate.
- [14:00]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [14:01]
Jill Dodd
And they served, you know, immediately were given champagne, and they made. They had baked potatoes with caviar, and I know I'd never had that before. Anyway, the party's going on and just visiting with people and Adnan, who. I didn't know who he was, we started dancing together, Adnan and I, and it got wild fast. And the pirates, like, somebody grabbed my arms and Adnan had my feet, and they were swinging me over the bonfire or next to the bonfire, and then we started throwing chairs into the bonfire. We were throwing the plates and the champagne glasses, and it just. It got crazy, which was fine with me because I loved that. I used to go to the Greek restaurants in Paris and.
- [14:54]
Julian Morgans
Yeah, cool.
- [14:55]
Jill Dodd
You know, you basically demolish it. And it was so much fun. So after we sat back down from dancing, then Pamela came over to me and she said, do you know who you're dancing with? You're dancing with. With Adnan Khashoggi. And I'm just like, what? I don't. I don't. I can't hear what you're saying. I don't know what you're talking about. I wouldn't even know his name anyway. There was no Internet. I wouldn't know who this guy was. And I was dancing with him because I thought he was safe, because he reminded me of, like, one of my friend's dads. He was 44 and I was 20, so I thought he was safe. You know, someone my own age, I probably would have thought, oh, God, this guy's going to try to attack me. But, you know, he seems.
- [15:40]
Julian Morgans
He's an older guy. Yeah.
- [15:42]
Jill Dodd
And then Adnan came over and sat in the chair next to me and he.
- [15:47]
Julian Morgans
Can you describe him? What does he look like?
- [15:50]
Jill Dodd
So he's shorter than me, balding, he has super long eyelashes, pretty eyes, kind of olivey skin, a bit overweight, so a little bit round and pudgy and sort of short. But he had a sweet face. Like a very, you know, friendly, sweet face. And it was so loud, the music and everything. You can't talk very well. We tried, and he spoke English perfectly, but. But he pulled my sleeve up and he. He was bleeding from the glass and he wrote I love you in blood down my arm.
- [16:32]
Julian Morgans
Wow.
- [16:32]
Jill Dodd
Yeah. And I was kind of like, huh, that's new. Never happened to me before.
- [16:38]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. Wow. I think AIDS was. Was really on at this time. And, you know, he wasn't concerned. You weren't concerned? This is a pretty big this is an out there move.
- [16:49]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, yeah, that's a. That's a very creative, creative pickup line.
- [16:55]
Julian Morgans
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. He's thinking outside the box here.
- [16:59]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, he's very intelligent and a really good conversationalist, which is how I got involved with him because I really ended up falling for him.
- [17:09]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [17:10]
Jill Dodd
But, well, they hauled him away because he's bleeding. Like the people from the restaurant said, we got to get band aids for him or whatever. So they bandaged his hands up that were bleeding from the champagne glasses that were broken. And my agent Pamela came over and said, adnan wants you to come on his boat and have coffee, have a cappuccino. And I said, no, I just want to go back to the room. I'm exhausted. And she goes, but it's the boat out there. And she points to the sea and there's this like, thing that looks like the Queen Mary was all I had to describe it. My only reference point, this big ship. And I said, I don't care what ship he's got, I want to go to bed. And I guess they were trying to impress me. And so I insisted on going back to the hotel, which we did.
- [18:03]
Julian Morgans
Hey, it's time for a quick ad break here, but please don't go anywhere. Stick around because we'll be right back. Foreign.
- [18:16]
Casey (Casefile podcast host)
Hi, I'm Casey, host of the Casefile podcast. Today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. With Boost Mobile, you get nationwide coverage and fast network speeds at a fraction of the price. Why pay more for the same great service? Unlimited plans start at just $25 a month and you won't be sacrificing coverage to save, so why wait? Start saving with Boost today. The Boost Mobile network, together with their roaming partners, covers 99% of the US population. 5G speeds not available in all areas. Visit your nearest BoostMobile store or find us online at boostmobile.com money back guarantee. Try Boost Mobile risk free for 30 days. If you don't like us, you get your money back. Requires port in and autopay. Customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded.
- [19:37]
Paige Desorbo (Giggly Squad)
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- [20:17]
RealReal Podcast Announcer
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- [20:57]
Jill Dodd
And then the following day, Victor called Pamela. And then Pamela asked again. She said, adnan would like you to come see him on his ship and he'd like us to come to lunch. And I said, well, you've got to come. If you come, then I'll go. What the heck? Okay, we'll go for lunch. Okay. So I didn't have any dressy clothes. I put on, like a scarf around my boobs and a, like a white full skirt and white moccasins. So we, we. You have to take a boat to get to the boat because it's so far out in the ocean, the harbor's too shallow. So we climb up the side of the boat and he welcomes us on board. And he pretty quickly escorts us down to this room that's just full of couture dresses. Like walls of couture dresses and shoes.
- [21:58]
Julian Morgans
Okay. These are all, like, brand new or they've been used. The. The.
- [22:01]
Jill Dodd
Maybe they were Runway. Runway. Everything was handmade. I don't think they were used.
- [22:07]
Julian Morgans
Wow.
- [22:08]
Jill Dodd
They had tags on them. And not all of them had tags because some of them were Runway models. Totally hand sewn.
- [22:16]
Julian Morgans
Was this a dream? I mean, were you kind of like, oh, yeah, I have arrived.
- [22:21]
Jill Dodd
I was really shocked because I was a fashion freak. Like, I was obsessed with fashion since I was a little girl. I started sewing in elementary school. I sewed all my own clothes in high school. Like, I would wake up early, sew an outfit, and wear it to school.
- [22:40]
Julian Morgans
Wow.
- [22:41]
Jill Dodd
So seeing these dresses that I knew about because I was reading Vogue, I was just wowed by it. So Pamela picked some, like, off the shoulder red dress, which was very suiting for her. Cause she was very flirtatious with men. And I got this Lanvin dress that was gray silk and some strappy metallic shoes. Anyway, we go back up to the ship deck and we all sit down for lunch, and Victor and Anna were there. And I think it was three of Adnan's sons. Two of his boys at least, were there. And I was seated next to Adnan, and we just talked the whole time. I was asking him questions about the kids, you know, just everything. And he's a really great conversationalist.
- [23:35]
Julian Morgans
You weren't intimidated by his wealth? You know, he's clearly a. Like a very, very rich, powerful man. You're in his super yacht and you're. You're exploring his giant wardrobe full of Runway dresses. I mean, I'd have been a bit like, oh, my God, I've got to impress this guy. I'd have been put off.
- [23:52]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, I didn't feel. That's. That's weird. I did not feel intimidated by him. I was curious about him. I would say it was more curiosity. And I grew up mostly being with my dad more than my mom, spending more time with my dad at the fire station. So I was used to talking with older men all the time. So to me, this was a really normal thing. Also, I grew up around boats, not a boat like this, but I don't know why it didn't blow my mind. And modeling. I would model couture clothes, so I was used to seeing these garments regularly. So it was just kind of like, oh, here they are. I don't know. I didn't think too much about it. It's weird. Yeah, it was odd. But maybe it was more curiosity and maybe.
- [24:46]
Julian Morgans
Was there. Was there an element of, like. I don't know, maybe. This is kind of a weird question after you've just sort of spoken so much about sexual harassment. But. But did you feel on some level you had. You had power? Like, you had power over. You know, these men clearly look up to you in some way as you being that sort of powerful perk as a person because they think you're beautiful, you know? Did that give you a sense of, like. No, I'm. I'm the one on the pedestal here. I can. I can talk to this old man who's a bit bold and a bit fat because I actually have a bit of power here.
- [25:16]
Jill Dodd
God, I never thought about that. Yeah, I probably felt that way, but not knowing that, I. Yeah, I didn't know that. Maybe that's what. You know what. Maybe that was my sort of like a false. False bravado.
- [25:30]
Julian Morgans
Yeah, right.
- [25:30]
Jill Dodd
Like a False sense of confidence.
- [25:34]
Julian Morgans
Like you were playing a character in this moment. You're like, I am sexually empowered, you know, woman who, like, inhabits this space.
- [25:43]
Jill Dodd
And not so much sexually, because I'd had had much sexual experience at that point.
- [25:48]
Julian Morgans
Okay.
- [25:48]
Jill Dodd
But it was more. I was seen as beautiful. So maybe I subconsciously felt some confidence from that.
- [25:58]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. Do you remember what you and Adnan spoke about that first conversation?
- [26:03]
Jill Dodd
Well, I know that I asked a lot about his kids and he definitely spoke about his divorce. And, you know, it was just a very lively table, but it. But we were pretty much locked on. On each other. Then he asked if he could take me on a tour of the boat, which he did. We went walking all around. He showed me his private suite, which was very James Bond. There were like revolving walls and he had this like, pyramid statue. His company was called Triad, and it was like a glowing pyramid. It was kind of like mysterious. And they actually. They actually.
- [26:44]
Julian Morgans
It's really 1980s.
- [26:46]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, it really was actually. Yeah. And he had like a fur cover on his bed, some kind of real fur.
- [26:53]
Julian Morgans
Cool.
- [26:54]
Jill Dodd
And they actually used his boat in a James Bond movie.
- [26:57]
Julian Morgans
Really?
- [26:57]
Jill Dodd
It was that, like, outrageous.
- [27:00]
Julian Morgans
Was it a super yacht? I'm imagining like a big old, you know, super yacht.
- [27:04]
Jill Dodd
It was the largest yacht in the world.
- [27:07]
Julian Morgans
Oh, yeah, right. Very good.
- [27:08]
Jill Dodd
Like 270 something feet or something like that.
- [27:12]
Julian Morgans
Fairly. Fairly impressive then.
- [27:14]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, it was crazy. But I had worked on ships. It's funny, I'd worked on ships. I'd worked on boats. I'd been. I had done jobs on the Queen Mary. So I'm just like. I'm used to boats, you know, I just was going along with.
- [27:27]
Julian Morgans
Yeah, just another boat.
- [27:28]
Jill Dodd
I don't know. Yeah, that's how I was feeling.
- [27:31]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [27:31]
Jill Dodd
And there was a helicopter on top. And he had the ski boats inside the boat. He had a hospital downstairs.
- [27:37]
Julian Morgans
Wait, a hospital?
- [27:38]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:40]
Julian Morgans
What for?
- [27:41]
Jill Dodd
He said that in case anyone needed heart surgery, you could do heart surgery in that hospital.
- [27:49]
Julian Morgans
That's bananas.
- [27:52]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, I think he was. I don't know. He was just probably going down the list of the. What he would tell people about. These are the qualities of my boat. I don't know. Then he took me into this room that was a conference room that at night it turns into a disco.
- [28:09]
Julian Morgans
Okay, that's cool. Yeah. For. For like corporate events that get a little carried away.
- [28:15]
Jill Dodd
He was in business, that was. And he used this boat for business. I learned later.
- [28:20]
Julian Morgans
Okay.
- [28:21]
Jill Dodd
He would. He would hire girls to come and spy on his business partners. They would sleep with him and get secrets, whatever secrets they could from these men that they were sleeping with. And then in the morning, they would tell Adnan everything that the. That the woman could find out about this guy. So they were spies for him.
- [28:43]
Julian Morgans
What a bizarre world. Did he speak to you at this point, you know, this sort of early stage about his business? I mean, he's selling, you know, bullets and bombs to, well, people who are using them for evil. Really? Did he. Did he mention this?
- [28:58]
Jill Dodd
No. When I asked him, and I don't know if this was the first night, it could have even been the first night, but he took me down into this small room with a couch in it that was just really small and cozy. And we talked until like 3 or 4 in the morning. But he told me he went to school in California. And when he was in California, he said, we don't have all this in Saudi Arabia. We don't have these trucks, we don't have these tractors, we don't have these type of aircraft. So when he went back to Saudi Arabia, he began selling, I think it was Chevy trucks to Saudi Arabia. But he became the. The middleman between the US And Saudi Arabia for trucks, tractors, building equipment and airplanes.
- [29:45]
Julian Morgans
So that was how he started at a time when Saudi Arabia was coming up in the world, you know, when they're sort of. The oil industry was taking off.
- [29:53]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, yeah. So then. Then it gradually turned into weapons, which I wasn't aware of until later on in our relationship.
- [30:03]
Julian Morgans
All right, so you're here, you're sitting on this couch until 3am what were you feeling about him at this point?
- [30:10]
Jill Dodd
I felt a real connection, honestly, I really did. I. I felt connected to him. I really liked him. And it was refreshing to spend time with a man that I could have such a great conversation with because I was so isolated in Paris.
- [30:27]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [30:28]
Jill Dodd
You know, either a guy was trying to attack me on a job or I was just in a room full of models and no one was talking. It wasn't as. You know, it seems a lot more friendly these days than it was back then. You know, you had to be very professional, keep your mouth shut, you know, just do your job.
- [30:47]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [30:49]
Jill Dodd
So I was. I would say I was probably very lonely.
- [30:53]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [30:54]
Jill Dodd
So to have this conversation with him, who I thought was so interesting, I just loved it. And I think that I. I believe, and I think I even wrote that, that I wanted him to kiss me. I really started liking him, like, right away.
- [31:12]
Julian Morgans
Did he.
- [31:14]
Jill Dodd
No, I don't think so. Madda kissed my Cheek or something. But no, no, he didn't. For sure he didn't.
- [31:21]
Julian Morgans
You guys both sort of stayed at opposite ends of the couch. You were. You were kind of reluctant.
- [31:27]
Jill Dodd
No, we were. We were right next to each other. It was a small couch. We were right next to each other.
- [31:31]
Julian Morgans
Okay. Okay. So then how did. I mean, how did this end? And I guess my big question is, like, how did this graduate to something more romantic?
- [31:41]
Jill Dodd
Well, I said, can I stay here tonight? I don't know how to get home. And he said, yes, Pamela's in the green suite or the green room. So he took me to the green room where she was sleeping. And she got up as soon as I came in and she was so excited. And I didn't realize, but she knew she was going to get a big commission. She was going to be paid for this.
- [32:06]
Julian Morgans
Oh. Do you have any idea how much.
- [32:10]
Jill Dodd
I think it was? 50,000 just for the introduction. That's a lot back then. Yeah, that was the. Yeah.
- [32:20]
Julian Morgans
How does it make you feel to say that all these years later?
- [32:25]
Jill Dodd
Well, when I first. I didn't even realize what had happened.
- [32:29]
Julian Morgans
I didn't. Maybe. Maybe we should hold the sort of. The surprise ending for the ending. But I guess, yeah, I'm just. I'm just sort of curious about you feeling your feelings now, saying this, you know, $50,000 for you. Like, you, you know, you.
- [32:43]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, well, understanding it now is. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. And I went through a lot of mental gymnastics to try to have or gain peace with it. I felt shame. I felt like, oh, God, I was such a fool. And it wasn't until years later that I really untangled what had happened. And then when I met all these women over the pandemic and we all started working together, all these other women that had been through similar situation. We had all. We all. I mean, these are like doctors, lawyers, media personalities. These women are not stupid women. But all of us felt shame. And most of us didn't tell anyone about it, of course. And for many of the women, it was the first time coming out about this is when we were all meeting together. Everyone buried it.
- [33:49]
Julian Morgans
I think that is. That's one of the. The sort of. The psychological traits that enables this thing to proliferate is this sense of shame. Therefore, I don't want to share it. Like, it's because of me. I did something wrong, you know, like. But you're just a kid, you know, you don't.
- [34:02]
Jill Dodd
Right.
- [34:02]
Julian Morgans
You didn't do anything sexual.
- [34:04]
Jill Dodd
For some reason, sexual abuse does that to young people.
- [34:07]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. Yeah. You shut down and then. And therefore you. You feel isolated.
- [34:13]
Jill Dodd
Yeah. You feel scared of these people, Actually threatened by them.
- [34:18]
Julian Morgans
It's tragic.
- [34:20]
Jill Dodd
Yeah. So the saga will always continue until I don't know how things can possibly.
- [34:26]
Julian Morgans
And then how did you. So, I mean, like, how did this sort of one off meeting turn into a relationship?
- [34:32]
Jill Dodd
Well, Pamela would. Would invite me or say that Adnan would like you to come over his house for lunch or let's go to Adnan's house for dinner. So Victor calls me and invites me to lunch at Adnan's. And I go. And I'm in my model clothes. I'm in like Levi's and like a shredded T shirt with beads hanging off it.
- [34:55]
Julian Morgans
Cool.
- [34:55]
Jill Dodd
And my moccasins at that time.
- [34:58]
Julian Morgans
Right? Yeah.
- [34:59]
Jill Dodd
Well, 80s. It was so. 80s.
- [35:00]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. It's like cutting edge.
- [35:02]
Jill Dodd
I probably had. I probably had a headband on. Yeah, I probably had a headband on too. And we had lunch, but it was the three of us. It was Victor, Adnan and me in on. At a dining table, very informal lunch. And I was just thinking, you know, why is Victor here? If this guy's interested in me, why is Victor here?
- [35:23]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [35:24]
Jill Dodd
I didn't understand that. So anyway, then Adnan pulls out this catalog of jewelry, like, super expensive. I don't even know what it was. Anyway, he said, you know, what do you like from this? What are the things that you like in this catalog? So I'm looking at it and I'm just blown away. Like, I can't pick something out of this. This stuff must cost millions of dollars. It was crazy.
- [35:49]
Julian Morgans
Did you want this stuff or no? No, no.
- [35:53]
Jill Dodd
I would not feel comfortable with any of that. No.
- [35:58]
Julian Morgans
But you, I mean, you know, someone offers you a diamond necklace or something, or a tiara, surely you go for it.
- [36:04]
Jill Dodd
I didn't and he didn't. He did offer me. Down the road in Africa, he offered me this probably like 20 carat diamond.
- [36:14]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [36:15]
Jill Dodd
I didn't take it. I said, I can't. This is. This is too much. I can't. I can't do it. And then he. He got angry. Like, not angry, but he got hurt that I didn't take it. Yeah. And looking back, I should have taken it. That was nothing to him. And he ended up giving it to his ranch manager, who. His ranch manager was wearing it on his pinky later on in the week. So it obviously meant not much to him.
- [36:44]
Julian Morgans
Right.
- [36:44]
Jill Dodd
But he gave me a shirt. He pulled a shirt out of his closet. He goes, here, can you accept a shirt? Then I said, yeah, I can accept a shirt.
- [36:52]
Julian Morgans
Oh, God.
- [36:53]
Jill Dodd
I wasn't after his money.
- [36:55]
Julian Morgans
Okay, well, I feel like on some level, you passed a test here. You know, you'd sort of proven yourself to be an intellectual equal. You weren't a gold digger, Jill. And I think that. That hopefully that played well for you.
- [37:09]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, I think he knew that. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure he knew that. I'm sure he knew that about me.
- [37:15]
Julian Morgans
So how did it finally get to a point where you actually had feelings for him and he had feelings for you, and it felt authentic.
- [37:23]
Jill Dodd
So the times that I would meet with him, even at his house or with Victor, I kept thinking about him because I hadn't been. I hadn't had a boyfriend. I wasn't dating anyone in Paris. I was just by myself. And so I was feeling like I was getting, like, a crush on him or whatever. At that age, you would call it. I was at home one night, and Victor calls me, and he said, oh, I'm over here. Margo Hemingway's here. And, like, he's trying to impress me about the celebrities that were in the room. And he says, I just wanted to invite you to the Canary Islands, Spain, and the Canary Islands with. With us. We're a big group. We're going to go and. And for a vacation. And I said, yeah, I'd love to do that. And so I said, yeah, I want to go. Yeah, I kind of just wanted to get out of town.
- [38:16]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [38:17]
Jill Dodd
And so I went to Spain with all of them on a private jet. And fun. Well, they made it fun. And it was a lot because of Anna, because Anna was just super nice and friendly and fun. And she brought another young girl, too, so it made me feel comfortable. It wasn't just like, me and Victor. That would have been weird. So we fly into Spain, we go to Adnan's mansion in Spain, and we have a few days without him there, and we're just basically having a vacation. So Adnan comes into town, and I didn't know he was back or was there. And Victor comes into my room, wakes me up in the middle of the night with Aun, too. And I was sleeping in the room with the other girl because she was afraid to sleep alone because this was a wildlife preserve for there was, like, animals outside the windows, and they had to, like, cover the windows with wood every night because it was like a wildlife preserve. It was crazy. So they came into my bedroom, and he and Victor's like, there she Is. That's her. That's her. So they pull me out of bed, and Adnan guides me to his bedroom in that mansion. And he starts to draw a bath for me. And it's like very fancy bubble bath and everything. And we just start talking.
- [39:52]
Julian Morgans
Okay.
- [39:52]
Jill Dodd
And. Which is what we would always do.
- [39:55]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [39:56]
Jill Dodd
And so I was happy to see him. And I really was building it up in my mind. I really liked him. So he went in the other room, he came back, and he was sitting like on the side of the bathtub while we were talking or maybe on the floor, but like right there. Then he. He brought cocaine in and he lined up some lines of coke either on the side of the tub or a mirror. I can't remember.
- [40:24]
Julian Morgans
Had you ever done cocaine before?
- [40:26]
Jill Dodd
No, I hadn't. And he said, here, do some. And I was like, no, I don't do drugs. And he pushed me and pushed me and pushed me. And then finally I'm like, okay, I'll try a little bit. And I did. And then we went into his. Back into the bedroom, which is right next to the bathroom there. We sat on the bed and we're talking more and I'm dressed, you know, I've got one of those caftans on. And he says, I want to tell you about my culture. And he said, actually, our cultures aren't that different. He said, you're a Christian, right? And I said, no, I was raised atheist. I don't know about any religion. And he said, well, in my country, the very wealthy men are allowed to have multiple wives, just like in the Old Testament, where men were allowed to have multiple wives because so many men were killed in battle and there weren't enough men to take care of the women. So if a woman's husband was killed, her brother would welcome this woman into her family and take care of her and her children. And so he's explaining this to me from like a religious and a cultural. Cultural standpoint.
- [41:48]
Julian Morgans
Yeah, right.
- [41:50]
Jill Dodd
And then he was almost trying to sell it to me because then he said, I want you to be one of my wives. And he said, I will take care of you. And we'll make a. I think he said, the five year contract. We'll make a contract and I'll take care of you. You can. You can fly to me at any time, any day, anytime you want me. You can call me 24 7. I'm available to you always. And you can date other men, but just don't date anyone that's from my country.
- [42:22]
Julian Morgans
Okay?
- [42:23]
Jill Dodd
That's don't date anyone Middle Eastern. So. Oh. And he said, I not going to kiss you until you agree to this. I can't kiss you. And I said, you don't need to do all this, you know. And then he said, don't fall in love with me. I'll introduce you to young dukes and lords. And you know, it was like he was insecure and trying to, you know, and I was already falling for him.
- [42:47]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [42:48]
Jill Dodd
So anyway, we start kissing and we make love and then we get up because it's basically morning. At that point I got dressed, met him in the breakfast room and he brought me this like leather package which is what this super expensive jewelry comes in. And it was a diamond necklace and a ring and it was pretty, it was a pretty mild thing. He, he obviously could tell I didn't like the real fancy stuff. So this was something that, you know, you might look and go, why is that young girl wearing that? But it wasn't like in your face, you know, I was definitely too young for it, but it wasn't obnoxious.
- [43:31]
Julian Morgans
Okay. Yeah, it was. Was, was that. I mean, at this point it's kind of official, right? You know, you've got a like commitment jewelry and you've, you've made love in this mansion.
- [43:41]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, we were with each other all the time.
- [43:45]
Julian Morgans
Were you in love?
- [43:46]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, definitely.
- [43:49]
Julian Morgans
Was he in love with you?
- [43:52]
Jill Dodd
I thought he was, but I don't know, maybe he just acted. Maybe it was all in my head, you know, maybe he just knew that I was young and dumb.
- [44:04]
Julian Morgans
I mean, but I guess in that, in that early stage, he was, he was good to you or you, you felt like he was being good to you.
- [44:12]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And he's a gentleman, you know.
- [44:18]
Julian Morgans
Hey, this bit of music means it's time for an ad break. But please don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
- [44:28]
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- [45:17]
RealReal Podcast Announcer
This podcast is supported by the RealReal. Meet Christine. She loves shopping. And this is the sound of fashion overload. Too many fabulous things, not enough space. So Christine started selling with the RealReal.
- [45:31]
Jill Dodd
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Jill Dodd
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- [46:24]
Julian Morgans
So it sounds like there was a period in the middle there where it was great. You know, you're in Kenya and you're in love and, you know, things were respectful and fun and the like. How long was this sort of sweet honeymoon period? For.
- [46:39]
Jill Dodd
About, I'd say at least a year. We were just together all the time. I had his full attention. But then there were clues. Like one night he came and brought me a piece of jewelry and put it by my bed. But then he said, oh, I've got the wrong room. And then so I was thinking, well, oh, is there. Is there other women? Like, what's going on? And eventually then I would be invited to these dinners and required to attend. And there were multiple women there. And it was becoming more clear that this is his lifestyle. And then he was open about it, too. So he would talk about it. Like there was this one girl in particular that he was close with that he told me a story of how he thought she was cheating on him. So he had her apartment bugged in Paris.
- [47:36]
Julian Morgans
Right.
- [47:36]
Jill Dodd
And then also I would run into these girls at the hotel. As I went on longer and longer, I was running into the other women and we would be seated at dinner. But then I never was intimidated yet because I was the one that had been around the longest. I felt like I was the favorite. Yeah. Whether I was or not, who knows? But I thought I was. So I wasn't intimidated yet. But it began to change. So it was fine for a while. Then slowly I started seeing the other Women. And then over time, the women started becoming more troubled. Like, one girl was a drug addict. The other girl had just gotten out of rehab and was someone I knew that I modeled with. So these weren't necessarily girls studying to become doctors like they were in the beginning. They were getting more damaged, I would say.
- [48:32]
Julian Morgans
When you said they were becoming more damaged, do you think you were just getting exposed to girls who had been in Adnan's orbit for longer or, like, what was happening?
- [48:43]
Jill Dodd
Maybe. Maybe they were always there and I just wasn't exposed to them. Yeah, that's completely possible, because it seems.
- [48:50]
Julian Morgans
Unlikely that his taste was changing. And he's like, you know what? I'm suddenly into damaged women. I don't know. It just seemed like what was happening.
- [48:58]
Jill Dodd
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't. I never thought of that.
- [49:03]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. So. But the main thing is that you were becoming like you. You were feeling like the relationship was a pretty crowded place, and I guess that started to feel bad.
- [49:15]
Jill Dodd
Yes. Okay. So then I was the favorite, I thought. And he made this big dinner party, like, celebrating our love. And he had a violinist, and it was this huge party, very fancy. He wrote me a poem. It was this whole thing. And then there were rumors around with Anna and Victor that he was gonna propose to someone. And since I'd been there the longest, I thought it was gonna be me. Naturally, it would be me.
- [49:47]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:49]
Jill Dodd
So he made this big dinner, and we're dancing together, slow dancing in front of this crowd, and he recites this poem to me. And we go back to his room afterward, and he goes into his safe, and he pulls out this ring box, and he opens it, and it was just this small little ring. It was like a heart with an arrow going through it. And I thought, okay, this doesn't look like a proposal.
- [50:24]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [50:25]
Jill Dodd
And then later on, like, maybe a few weeks later when I was there, I saw another woman, young woman, with that same ring on. Like, he bought them in bulk.
- [50:37]
Julian Morgans
Oh, no.
- [50:39]
Jill Dodd
Yeah. So I'm like, I am not special. I thought I was special. I am not special.
- [50:45]
Julian Morgans
What a disappointing experience.
- [50:48]
Jill Dodd
Yeah. So I was getting my heart broken.
- [50:50]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [50:51]
Jill Dodd
Young girl, you know? So then this young girl comes into the fold, and I meet her, and she's very wholesome looking, and she kind of looks like me, only a younger version of me. Because now I'm like, what, 22 or so? So I'm old now, this girl, I don't know, maybe she was like, 18 or something. And I was getting tired of this whole game, and I was Also getting tired of the dinner parties because we had to entertain diplomats from all over the world at these dinners. So we were required to wear couture and make intellectual conversation with the ambassador from wherever. The. The duke, the lord that, you know, the Saudi prince, you know, this is. This is what we did. So that night, Victor calls me at like 2, 2 in the morning, and he goes, you've got to come down. We're going to go to dinner right now. I said, it's two o'. Clock. And he says, well, Adnan just got in town. We're having a big, big dinner. And I was. I was. I had had it. And so I put on a dress that I would normally wear at home, like some kooky, fun thing. I was in fashion design school. Adnan paid my tuition for fashion school. So I was in fashion design school at the time. And I had made this, like, pink satin dress. It was very, very like Marilyn Monroe. And I thought, I'm gonna wear that. I'm gonna dress in something that I like.
- [52:23]
Julian Morgans
Nice.
- [52:24]
Jill Dodd
And then I put on my iridescent pink eyeshadow, which was very 80s, and then this blue iridescent eyeliner, and I put hairspray in my hair and ratted it all up. I mean, I look like a probably 80s music video or something. And so I go down, we all meet up, and we get in the limo and it's me and this young girl wearing couture, of course, and Adnan. And he goes, well, the only thing I can say about that dress is that it's nice that you made it. He did not like the dress.
- [53:02]
Julian Morgans
He did not appreciate you wearing something you liked, right?
- [53:07]
Jill Dodd
Oh, no, he wanted me in couture because this is all about impressing his power. Powerful friends.
- [53:13]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [53:14]
Jill Dodd
Beautiful women in couture.
- [53:17]
Julian Morgans
Right? That was the thing.
- [53:19]
Jill Dodd
So at this table, there were film producers wanting him to back their film. There was all these men, and they were all asking him for money. His son was there, Mohammed. And Adnan was telling Muhammad. He said, you gotta date Brooke Shields. And, and, And I said. I said, leave him alone. Maybe he's not ready to date. This is. He's. He's young. Just let him do what he wants. Are you trying to make him into what you are? Just leave him alone. Because I was honest with Adnan, I would push back on him. And I think that he knew I was honest because I would push back on him.
- [54:01]
Julian Morgans
Yeah.
- [54:02]
Jill Dodd
And so he said, well, if you don't. If you don't go after her, then I'm going to. Like, she's available for him.
- [54:10]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. Right, Right. Yeah. Like, her opinions are irrelevant. Really?
- [54:14]
Jill Dodd
Mm. Yeah. You don't want her? Well, I'm gonna marry her.
- [54:17]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. What's this?
- [54:18]
Jill Dodd
Yeah. So there were. There were people at the table that were even tape recording conversations and putting it in their pocket and, like, pulling out checks and putting them back in their suit, you know, it was just so secretive. And I just thought, God, these people are just disgusting. And I got up and I. To go to the bathroom, and I went to the bathroom and I come out and there's this woman who works there, and she's this. She's a black woman, really tiny. And she had ran the water for me while I was going pee. And, like, she ran the warm water, you know? And I'm thinking, God, this not necessary, but thank you. And I didn't say that, but I just washed my hands. And then I. I just looked at her and it was like, there's something about her. And she said to me, she goes, honey, that is the prettiest dress I've ever seen.
- [55:15]
Julian Morgans
Nice.
- [55:16]
Jill Dodd
I got the chills and I about died. What she said, it was as if an angel was standing there. It was surreal. And I felt like I was walking on a cloud. And I walked back to the table with the thought that I would rather live in whatever situation this woman is living in with her, I would much rather be with her than be with any of these guys.
- [55:46]
Julian Morgans
Wow.
- [55:46]
Jill Dodd
And also, I was around Skid Row a lot because I was working in downtown la, which the garment business was interwoven within Skid Row. I was in Skid Row, like, every day.
- [55:58]
Julian Morgans
Yep.
- [55:59]
Jill Dodd
And I also thought I would rather live on Skid Row then live with these people. And I was like, that's it. I'm done. So I go back to the table. And it took some unwinding for us to undo our situation and relationship. But that was the last time I saw him.
- [56:21]
Julian Morgans
Wow. That was it. So when you guys broke up, I mean, how did you feel? Was it. Did you go through a breakup process?
- [56:27]
Jill Dodd
Yes, I definitely went through a lot of pain after severing it for sure, because I. I went back to Las Vegas with a guy friend of mine, and we were dancing on this boat in Caesar's. Caesar's. Caesar's Palace. And I believe it was, like, rocking. It was this. Chevy Chase was on the piano, and we were slow dancing. And he was just my dear friend. And I just started crying and crying and crying. And he said, jill, he's not going to change because I really missed him. And I felt like if I could have a monogamous relationship with him where it was just the two of us, that I would be happy. But I couldn't handle everything that came with it. And I even went, I stayed at my grandma's house that night. My grandma used to live in Las Vegas. And she told me the same thing. I came home from that night with my friend dancing on the rocking boat and I sat on her lap in her, like, barca lounger. And I was crying. And she said the same thing. She said, honey, he's not going to change. So they knew more about what I was in than I did really. So it was painful. And I missed him. I really missed him.
- [57:46]
Julian Morgans
I think that is so. That's so interesting because I guess, I mean, honestly, I came to this story thinking that it was all pretty cut and dry, like it was an exchange, you know, you, you offered youth and beauty and I guess he offered financial freedom. But, but I mean, I'm hearing that like there's a. There's so much more nuance to it than that. I don't know, I'd like to hear you sort of like reflect on that. Like that, that sort of notion that in the end it's just sort of like sex for money or like beauty for financial freedom. I mean, like, how do you, how do you think about that stuff now?
- [58:21]
Jill Dodd
Okay, so now that I'm almost 66, I see it much more clearly. I see it crystal clear now. I see that he bought me because he wanted to use me for his lifestyle. Now he treated me kindly. He was. I wasn't sold as a sex slave. I wasn't sold to somebody off the coast of Africa and killed. Never seen again, which that has happened to girls. But he wanted me to make him look good. He wanted to enjoy my youth. The other thing that at the time, I had low self esteem and I was competing in the modeling world. So I wasn't going around thinking that I'm beautiful. I only saw my flaws. That's all I would hear about is, oh, your teeth aren't wide enough or oh, your hips are too wide or your, you know, whatever it was. So I was critical of myself. So I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm so beautiful, not at all. So I wasn't looking at it like that at the time. It was only later that I see how he, he, he paid for me. He bought me. It's sick.
- [59:34]
Julian Morgans
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, yeah, it's literally you know, slavery. I mean, it's not slavery, but, you know, you are being treated as a product there. Your. Your. Your youth. I mean, you, You. You're. You became the product. And, yeah, that's. It's pretty gross. I mean, it just. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I guess at the same time, so there will be listeners who hear you talk about that, and, you know, they're listening to me say this, and they're like, yeah, but guys, you know, don't be so naive. Of, like, of course. That's how the world works. And I don't know, I guess I'm wondering, like, what would you say to them? And particularly what would you say to any person who's listening to this and being like, you know what? You know, I would love to marry a billionaire. Like, I would. There are people out there who aspire to it. What would be your advice to them?
- [60:28]
Jill Dodd
Right. Well, on the other side, too, there's a lot of people that have judged me over the years. They'll call me a whore, that I've had my life threatened. People, you know, threatened to kill me. There's been all kinds of crazy things ever since I wrote this book. So it's not all like, oh, I want to do that. It's a lot of attack as well. But what I would say to any young woman who's looking for a wealthy man to take care of her, and I raised my girls this way, is I tell them there's a price, and the price is freedom. Do you want to be free to make your own decisions, or do you want someone who tells you what to do and that you owe them? I can't stand being controlled. If I feel like I'm not in control of my life. That's the one sure thing that'll make me go into a depression. If I feel like I can't control my circumstances, I get really down. I have to feel free. That's number one. And if I'm not free, I'm not happy. So you're always giving up. I think you give up your freedom, you know?
- [61:50]
Julian Morgans
Yeah, totally. So, Adnan, he died just a few years ago.
- [61:56]
Jill Dodd
He died on my pub date, my publication date, the same day.
- [62:01]
Julian Morgans
Oh, no way. Wow. I didn't realize that. That's a hell of a coincidence.
- [62:06]
Jill Dodd
I know.
- [62:08]
Julian Morgans
When he died, did you feel like you guys had left things unresolved? Like, did you have questions that you still wanted answers for?
- [62:14]
Jill Dodd
Well, I spoke to him a few times after we broke up because I called him A few years after, I got divorced from my first husband, told him what was going on, and he invited me to come back and be with him again. And I'm like, nope, gotta do it on my own. Gotta do it on my own. And then later on, I was. As a fashion designer, I was doing research in Monte Carlo, and I called him, and he called me right back, and he invited me to come stay with him at the King of Morocco's house. Yeah. So we kind of resolved it over the years by staying in touch. Not a lot, but here and there. So I felt like it was resolved. And in a friendly way, he understood where I was coming from. I kind of got what he was doing.
- [63:03]
Julian Morgans
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And looking back on it now, do you think he had genuine feelings for you? I mean, I know that earlier you said. You kind of scoffed or said, like, I don't know if he ever loved me, but. But when you think about it now, did he have. Do you think he had feelings for you? I mean, would you describe it as a reciprocal relationship?
- [63:24]
Jill Dodd
I think it was. I think it was a reciprocal relationship. Maybe it was like girlfriend, boyfriend in his weird world. But it felt reciprocal to me. He was available to me always. We talked about everything. We were attracted to each other. We had fun. We laughed. We would just intellectually spar. I mean, there's no way that it wasn't fun. I mean, I had fun. I. I can't imagine. He was pretending to have fun, you know, and he. And he wanted me to come back to him all those times, all those years later. He definitely trusted me. Oh. The other thing he explained to me once was I. I called him out on the girls, and I said. And it was after he gave me that ring, I said, how do you have a relationship with all these different women? How do you do it? And he said, well, my heart is like a chest of drawers. And when I see you, I pull out that drawer, and when I see another one, I pull out that drawer. He compartmentalizes it. And because he was known as the wealthiest man in the world at that time, he felt that he had the right to have a harem just like the kings, you know?
- [64:42]
Julian Morgans
Yeah. He felt like he had a right to the biggest set of drawers in the world.
- [64:50]
Jill Dodd
Exactly. Yeah.
- [64:52]
Julian Morgans
Well, Jill, you have been an absolute delight. I can't thank you enough for coming on the show, for sharing your story. It's been great to see you.
- [64:59]
Jill Dodd
So nice to see you.
- [65:02]
Julian Morgans
If you've enjoyed today's interview and you want to learn a bit more about Jill's story. I highly recommend that you check out her book. It's called the Currency of Love and it's available online, on Amazon, on Goodreads, all the usual places. You can probably order it at your local bookstore. It's beautifully written, it's really interesting, and it includes a lot of details that we didn't have time for today. So check it out. That's the Currency of Love, A courageous journey to finding the love within Today's episode was produced by Rachel Tuff. It was mixed by Jimmy Saunders, who also did our theme music. Our cover art is by Rich Akers. Ellie Dickey is our intern and this whole thing has been a super real production.
- [65:59]
Casey (Casefile podcast host)
Don't raise your voice to prove you're right. Focus your mind with every word of irrefutable fact you can find, because conviction is the calm that comes when you know that you really do know. People who read the Financial Times know that they can shape their own perspectives with confidence because their viewpoints are informed by genuinely unbiased journalism, clarity and conviction. Source FT subscribe to the Financial Times@ft.comSourceFT.
- [66:30]
Julian Morgans
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