I Lived as a Hermit in the Australian Bush for 10 Years

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Lived as a Hermit in the Australian Bush for 10 Years"

Podcast: What It Was Like
Host: Julian Morgans
Guest: Dr. Gregory Smith
Date: November 7, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of "What It Was Like" features Dr. Gregory Smith, who shares his extraordinary story of withdrawing from society and living as a hermit in the Australian bush for a decade. Dr. Smith's journey is not just about surviving in the wilderness; it's a profound exploration of trauma, healing, self-discovery, and how solitude and nature can catalyze personal transformation. The interview traces Gregory's early life, his escapism into the bush, the challenges he faced, his eventual re-entry into society, and the wisdom he gleaned from these experiences.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Early Life and Trauma

• Family Background
  • Born in Tamworth, New South Wales, in 1955.
  • Raised in poverty, domestic violence, and addiction.
  • Mother addicted to diet pills (amphetamines), father alcoholic.
  • At age 2, Gregory suffered hearing loss from being thrown by his father during a violent episode.
  • At age 10, abandoned to an orphanage without explanation.
• Psychological Impact
  • Gregory developed deep anger, mistrust, and a preference for solitude:

    "Life lesson number one, don't trust anyone, even your parents." (10:54, Gregory)

  • Learned to escape into his mind while punished in isolation at the orphanage.
  • Institutional exit included meager resources and the instruction:

    "Don't come back." (12:30, Gregory)

2. Adulthood, Addiction, and Alienation

• Struggles with Addiction
  • Began drinking at age 18; found relief and chased that feeling.
  • Marriage ended due to anger and substance abuse ("I'd become my father." 14:26, Gregory).
• Family Trauma and History
  • Discovered intergenerational trauma and the impact of wars on his family's dysfunction.

3. Choosing the Bush – The Hermit Years

• Decision to Leave Society

  • Felt unable to coexist with society:

    "I was better off not being a part of it because sooner or later... I was going to hurt somebody really bad." (15:35, Gregory)

• First Nights

  • Wandered into the Byron Bay rainforest with no plan, scant supplies, no tent.
  • Initial hardships included torrential rain, mosquitoes, leeches, and immediate physical challenges:

    "I looked down and my legs are covered in leeches... I must have been anemic by the next morning." (17:28, Gregory)

• Adapting and Surviving

  • Ate wild skinks, eventually python and fruit bat ("they taste like urine... but they were nutritious." 26:41).
  • Skills acquired: fire making in rain, foraging, snaring, and animal identification.
  • Transitioned to vegetarianism after emotional attachment to wildlife.

4. Interaction With Others & Bush Economy

• Trading and Connections
  • Not completely isolated; bartered snake skins, carvings, wild fish, and homegrown marijuana with local "hippies and fringe dwellers."
  • Collected animal ticks to sell to veterinarians for $1 apiece (22:12).
  • Avoided building obvious shelters due to police aerial searches for cannabis crops.

5. Inner Struggles and Turning Points

• Physical and Mental Decline
  • Developed scurvy and severe health issues from poor diet and ongoing substance abuse ("I could reach into my mouth and pull my teeth out." 29:01).
• Profound Loneliness and Hallucination
  • Near death, weighed only 42 kg, became increasingly psychotic.
  • Experienced a transformative hallucination or vision: aliens challenged him to a debate about whether to die in the bush or return to society.

    "They used my thinking against me... If you stay up here and die... you’ll also create pain for your daughter and the rest of your family... I couldn't argue with that." (38:00)

6. Return to Society and Recovery

• Forced Exit — Literal and Figurative
  • Upon leaving the bush, was struck by a car and hospitalized, which saved his life.
  • Hospital staff stabilized him and he received a disability pension.
• Moment of Clarity
  • Sitting drunk and friendless on a park bench, Gregory had an epiphany about tirelessly fighting himself and chose to change:

    “There was never ever anyone else there that I was fighting. I’d created all this destruction fighting myself... I will do whatever I need to do not to be this person sitting here on this bench today.” (41:01)

  • Abruptly quit alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes.

7. Education and Rebuilding a Life

• Later Success
  • Enrolled at university at age 48, studied sociology to understand society and himself.
  • Excelled academically, earning first-class honours and an Australian scholarship into a PhD.
  • Became a lecturer, author, and TEDx speaker.
• Continued Advocacy
  • Founded a not-for-profit to help disadvantaged Australians with experiences similar to his own.

8. Reflections on Solitude, Nature, and Spirituality

• Role of the Bush in Healing
  • The years in solitude provided space for existential reflection, acceptance, and learning self-respect:

    “That period I spent in the bush was critical to becoming who I am today because that’s that time of self-reflection.” (50:34)

• Forgiveness and Interconnectedness
  • Developed forgiveness for parents, self-compassion, and a belief in obligation to ancestors and offspring:

    "Through forgiving them, I was able to forgive myself." (51:13)
    "I am a mere link in a long chain... the way I carry myself reflects on them." (55:39)

• Necessity of Human Contact
  • Ultimate realization: long-term isolation is psychologically detrimental. True fulfillment requires human connection and varied conversation:

    "To do that by yourself is to flirt with your own demons and your own sanity... I think over time, that would have detrimental effects on a person's psyche." (53:32 & 54:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Adapting to Solitude:

  "I learned to use my mind as an escape mechanism. I could withdraw into my mind and I could sit in a dark space for hours and hours and days and occupy myself." (10:54, Gregory)

• On the Beauty of Nature:

  "Misty mornings... standing on the top of a cliff overlooking the Huon Valley... and you feel like you can walk out on top of it to the other side. It's an amazingly beautiful thing." (33:23, Gregory)

• On Facing Himself:

  "There was never ever anyone else there that I was fighting. I'd created all this destruction fighting myself." (41:01, Gregory)

• On Forgiveness and Transformation:

  "Through forgiving them, I was able to forgive myself. I started to understand the nature of self respect." (51:13, Gregory)

• On Solitude vs. Human Connection:

  "To do that by yourself is to flirt with your own demons and your own sanity. To do it with someone else or a group... would be highly beneficial to a person's spirit." (53:32, Gregory)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dr. Smith’s Childhood Trauma – 07:01 to 11:58
• Discovery of Alcohol and Downward Spiral – 12:08 to 14:49
• Decision to Leave Civilization – 15:09 to 17:13
• First Nights in the Bush – 17:15 to 20:59
• Becoming Vegetarian in the Wild – 21:00 to 21:05
• Bush Economy: Trading and Survival – 21:13 to 24:41
• Daily Life and No Shelter – 24:41 to 27:30
• Physical Breakdown and Near Death – 28:01 to 29:07
• Mystical Epiphany (Aliens’ Debate) – 33:33 to 38:30
• Re-entering Society & Moment of Clarity – 39:00 to 44:40
• From Homelessness to Academia – 46:43 to 49:13
• Reflection: Nature, Forgiveness, Purpose – 50:34 to 56:13
• Final Thoughts on Solitude and the Need for People – 53:21 to 54:53

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Additional Highlights

• Wild diet anecdotes: Eating skinks, python (“sweet white meat”), and bats (“taste like urine”) before turning vegetarian out of empathy for animal life.
• Resourcefulness: Brewing beer in the bush, growing marijuana, selling ticks and exotic fish to get by.
• Sobriety catalyst: The image of holding a “double-edged sword” and realizing the foe was always himself.
• Academic transformation: From illiterate bush hermit to PhD, lecturer, and advocate.

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Closing Thoughts

Dr. Gregory Smith’s story is a testament to the ways in which trauma can shape a life, but also how nature, self-reliance, and deep reflection can lead to healing and purpose. The wilderness offered both hardships and sanctuary, and ultimately prepared him for re-integration and a mission to help others. The episode candidly explores the limits of escapism, the value of connection, and the power of forgiveness and self-understanding.

For more about Dr. Smith or to support his charity and work: visit drgregorysmith.com and check out his book Better Than Happiness: The True Antidote to Discontent.

Transcript

[Julian Morgans]

Did I talk too much?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Can I just let it go? I wish I would stop.

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[Julian Morgans]

So imagine this. You're standing on the beach when you notice something strange. The horizon just doesn't look right at first. All you can see is a thin white line. But the line starts to rise up and you realize it's not the horizon at all. It's actually a 30 foot tall wall of water and it's racing straight towards you. What would you do? On the day after Christmas? In 2004, a 9.1 magnitude earthquake hit off the coast of Indonesia, triggering a devastating tsunami. It struck Thailand without any warning. No alarms, no cell phone alerts, no evacuation. In this season of against the Odds, experience one of the deadliest natural disasters in history through the perspectives of those who did everything they could to to survive. Follow against the Odds on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts and you can binge all episodes of against the Odds Tsunami in Thailand early and ad free right now on Wondery.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And I just kept walking and Mill Road ended and then it turned into a trail and then the trail turned into a track and I found myself just on dusk in this forest. Then it started raining. Then it started really raining. And I was sitting there thinking I feel safe. I don't feel ashamed. There's no one to kick me in the guts and move me on. There's no one to judge me. I just feel okay. So I decided I was going to stay there for as long as I felt okay.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, I'm Julian Morgans and you're listening to what It Was like, the show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like so there's this road that I take in every day to drop my daughter at daycare. It's the Nepean highway in Melbourne. And maybe you know it. If you do, you'll probably agree that it's one of the most depressing stretches of urban landscape anywhere in the universe. It's just traffic, billboards, car yards. Everything's gray. There's just no. There's no trees. And driving it, every time I get hit by this wave of, like, suburban existentialism, it's just like, why do I live here? Why. Why have I chosen this? Did I even choose this? Or did I just kind of end up here? And to be clear, I love my life. You know, I have a great life, but there's a lot about modernity that just doesn't work for me. And especially, especially when I'm stuck in traffic on the goddamn Nepean Highway. And in those moments, I just want to live in a forest. And obviously, I'm not the first person to feel that way. History is full of people, mostly, mostly young men who have decided to go alone in the wilderness and grow a big beard. The obvious example that I'm thinking of is Christopher McCandless, whose story became a book, which became the 2007 film into the Wild. Actually, just hold that thought for a moment because. Just a quick plug. For this week's subscriber only episode, we're looking at a similar case as the one in into the Wild. Another man who fled into the Alaskan wilderness in 1981 named Karl McCon, and he got a friend to drop him off in an airplane, but forgot to organize the same friend to pick him up. So he ended up stranded in an Alaskan winter, trying to survive in a tent before he finally ran out of food and used his last shotgun cartridge to take his own life. It's a really sad story, but it's also. It's just been completely forgotten about. And it gives us an opportunity to just do a much deeper exploration of some of the themes that we're exploring in this episode. So that's our subscriber only episode this week. You should check it out. But anyway, back to this current story at hand, this episode. I've always wanted to know what's it like to give up everything and live in the wilderness? Is it peaceful or is it just kind of lonely? And is it as spiritually rewarding as I've always hoped? So I tracked down someone who's done it. I wanted to ask these questions, so I found a guy who's done it. And his name is Gregory Smith. And in his 30s, after a pretty traumatic upbringing, Gregory walked into the rainforest near Byron Bay with just the clothes on his back. And he stayed there and he lived on whatever he could pick or hunt and. And he didn't even have a tent. And that's how he lived for about 10 years. But Gregory's story isn't just about escaping society. It's a story about confronting the pain of an abusive, violent childhood and the way that nature can help people to heal. And I gotta say, it seems to have worked because these days, Gregory has a PhD. His name is actually Dr. Gregory Smith. He's also an author, a TED speaker, and a senior lecturer at Southern Cross University. And I think Gregory has a pretty rare kind of wisdom that you're going to hear today. And maybe it's the kind of wisdom you get after 10 years of quiet contemplation under a tree. So I loved this conversation, and I hope you do too. I think it speaks to a lot of the things that I've always wondered about. So here is Dr. Gregory Smith. Hey, Gregory, welcome to the show.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Thank you, Julian.

[Julian Morgans]

So my understanding is that your story starts with your childhood, which was pretty difficult. Could you just sort of set the scene there? You know, what was happening in your childhood?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Well, I was born in Tamworth, New south Wales in 1955, and I was born into poverty, domestic violence and addiction or alcoholism. I say addiction because my mother was also addicted to Ford pills at the time, which, as most of us know, are just pure amphetamine, so speed on the go diet tablets. Right from the very first day, it was. Well, I don't have a recollection of it, but there was violence within the household. At the age of two, my mother and my father were having a really bad argument, physical argument, and I got in the way. I was trying to, you know, as a young person does, as a young child does, try, you know, they try to stop it, just try to stop the argument. And I got in my father's way. He picked me up by the leg and flung me aside and I bounced off the wall. And from that day forth, I was hearing impaired, pretty much deaf in my left ear, which, you know, it's a legacy that constantly reminds me of domestic violence. That's something that's always just the uselessness of that type of violence. So, yeah, so that was at 2 years old. Then my mother had four more children, four girls. And there was just constant violence between my mother and my father. Look, to be honest, One was as bad as the other. When I reflect on it, it was just the nature of poverty and alcoholism and addiction. At the age of 10, my mother gave me away to an orphanage. And that created a whole lot of other types of trauma within me. Abandonment, resentment, anger. One of the standing philosophies of the time was children should be seen and not heard. And it wasn't custom to have conversations with children and tell children what was going on, what was happening, you know, what their part in life was, or things like that. So, you know, we just woke up one morning. Mum said, we're going for a drive. It was about 69 miles from Tamworth to Armidale. She said we were going to visit Aunty Muriel. When we got to our destination, there was this massive Gothic building that looked like a church. And when the nuns came out to usher us in, I kind of knew I was in trouble.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

And I do recall being really angry with the nuns and telling them, you know. And this is after hearing, you know, the exchanges between my mother and my father in heated debate, telling them exactly where I think they should go and what I thought of them.

[Julian Morgans]

Good, well, good on you.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah, well, that didn't go down too well. So my first day there, I spent locked up in a room in solitary confinement, which kind of set the scene for the rest of my stay in the orphanages and in the punitive system as I. As I. As I sort of matured.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so this sounds, you know, it sounds chaotic, I guess, particularly the part living with your parents. But it sounds. It sounds like a pretty unpleasant childhood. What effect did this have on you? What sort of a kid did you become?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I was very angry. I was a very angry child. And I was intolerant. I was intolerant of other people. I didn't trust people. I didn't believe what people said. Especially after my mother said we were going to visit an auntie and I end up in an orphanage. I just. That was it. You know, sometimes when I talk, I say, life lesson number one, don't trust anyone, even your parents. And that was the way it was for me. I just wanted to be by myself. One of the things being locked in isolation at that age is I learned to use my mind as an escape mechanism. I could, you know, I could withdraw into my mind and I could sit in a dark space for hours and hours and days and occupy myself. So I was quite okay being alone, which is not a healthy thing for a young person to do. But again, that set another theme for the Rest of my life as well.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, absolutely. And who did you become as you graduated from childhood into adolescence and into young adulthood?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Well, after I left the institutions, actually, they gave me three things. As I was walking out the gate, they gave me three things. One was a set of secondhand clothes which were ill fitting, and I felt very embarrassed. In the other was a piece of advice. Don't come back.

[Julian Morgans]

Not tempting.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

And I took that on board. And the third was $2.25. As I was walking out of that place, I was very angry. I was very afraid. I had not been a part of society. I had not been socialized into community. But on that day, I found myself in a pub and I bought a beer. That's the first time I drank alcohol in my life.

[Julian Morgans]

How old were you?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I drank that beer. I was. It was a week before my 19th birthday.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

But on that day, I found myself in a pub drinking a beer. And the strangest thing happened to me. And that was, as I drank that beer, I just suddenly felt okay. It was like the alcohol helped all that fear, all that anger to just dissipate for a short while.

[Julian Morgans]

That's a dangerous realization.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Absolutely dynamite. Totally dynamite. Because from that moment on, I chased that feeling. I was looking for that escape. I wanted to feel that good. And during that process, I found a whole lot of different jobs to support myself, Usually seasonal work, farm work, cleaning jobs. During that time, I met a beautiful young woman. I don't know what she saw in me, but I know she felt my anger because we were married. And a very short while after we were married, she left. And I think that was the wisest thing that she ever did in her life. I'd become my father. I'd become my father through alcohol, through the abuse, the violence.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

I was a horrible person.

[Julian Morgans]

It just makes me wonder if he'd become his father, too.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

He had, yes. Later in my life, I did a lot of work researching. In finding out who I was, I needed to understand who my father was, who my mother was, who their parents were and who their parents were and so forth and so on.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

And that trauma had been in our lives, in our family lives, for. For several generations. And it was amplified by both wars, both world wars, I'm sure.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

How did. How did this period of aggressive turmoil end?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

I tried, you know, I made a decision. I was hitchhiking out, you know, on the road. I'd been hitchhiking for probably several months up and down the East coast, but by the time I was 35, I realized that I just couldn't live in society. I was better off not being a part of it because sooner or later.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I was going to hurt somebody really bad.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And I don't think I could have lived with that.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

One day I was in Byron Bay.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And I saw a sign that said Malumbimbi that way. I thought, oh. I'd heard lots of stories about Mullumbimbi and the medication scene at Mullumbimbi, so I thought I might go across and try their medication.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And this was. I'm guessing this was about 1990 and marijuana was illegal in Australia, so going to Mullumbimbi or going to Nimbin for some weed would have been a tempting idea.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Well, I know in Byron Bay at the time, you know, even if you were found with a seed. Yeah. That was a jail term.

[Julian Morgans]

Yep.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

So I went across to Mullumbimbi and that was pretty cool for the first two days, but then I got sort of claustrophobic.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

I started walking out of Mullumbimbi and I just wondered, what am I going to do? I got to a point at the top up on Mount Gurnangarry and there was a sign, Pacific Highway 13, Mill Road. And I thought, well, I know exactly what's on the Pacific Highway. I've been walking up and down there for 20 years. I might give Mill Road a go. And I just kept walking and Mill Road ended and then it turned into a trail, and then the trail turned into a track and I found myself just on dusk in this forest.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And then it started raining and then it started really raining, and then the rain got heavier and I'm thinking, this is a rainforest. I pulled this dry as a bone.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Up over my head, sort of sheltered.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Myself, and I'm sitting there for hours while it rained. And then my legs started to get itchy and my face started to get itchy and there's mosquitoes everywhere. And I'm thinking, I'm just sitting here feeding the mosquitoes. I put my hand down to scratch my leg and put my hand back up and there's blood all over my hand. I looked down and my legs are covered in leeches.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Oh, this is just crazy. Anyway, I stayed there the night. I must have been anemic by the next morning, but I got through the night and it was a beautiful morning. The next morning, it was just an absolutely amazing morning. And the symphony, the sounds of the birds and the. It was just an amazing experience. And I thought, wow, what a beautiful place. So I decided to stay for a while. And that day I sort of did a recon. I had a look around. I knew I needed to find somewhere a little bit less wet. And I'm not talking about railway, just the sogginess of the ground. So I needed to find somewhere with a bit firmer ground to sleep on. Because I'd already decided I was going to spend a couple of days up there at least. So I did. I found a spot, it was lava rock. And I could drag a few branches in and make a little bit of a floor to lift me up off the rock, get me off the water when it rained. And then I went out and I explored, I explored the forest. And that night I lit a little fire. And I was sitting there thinking, I feel safe. I don't feel ashamed. There's no one to kick me in the guts and move me on. There's no one to judge me. I just feel okay. So I decided I was going to stay there for as long as I felt okay. And after a couple of weeks, you know, I learned some new skills in there as well. Like how do you light a fire while it's pouring rain, like in a thunderstorm?

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, I couldn't do that.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Anyone can do it.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

You just.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

There's always dry bark under the wet bark. So it's just peeling off that wet bark, getting to the dry bark.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

So I learned a whole lot of new skills there. My first meals up there were, well, they call them large skinks.

[Julian Morgans]

So I was catching skink like a lizard? Just like a big lizard that lives in the bush.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, yeah. And they're slow moving, they don't move very fast and they taste a bit like mud, but they're nutritious.

[Julian Morgans]

So do you cook them over a fire?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. I sort of sliced a piece off and sort of roasted that over the fire on a stick and ate that. I would eat whatever I could catch. Learned to build snares, learned to track. Yeah, Quite a few skills. The problem became because overnight or you know, just on dusk or at sun up dawn, I'd sit there and I'd watch all the animals moving around. And I took great pleasure in watching their routines and they became familiar. But then over time, I started to realize that I was actually eating them. And as each meal passed, there were less animals to interact with.

[Julian Morgans]

That's a bit sad.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

It made me very sad.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

So I became vegetarian.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Okay.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, that seems like a bit of a perilous thing to take on when you're subsisting on not much food.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

It was quite, it was quite a significant turning point in my life. But by then I'd also, you know, I mean by that time I'd. I'd started trading with the hippies and the fringe dwellers around the forest as well.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so you weren't entirely cut off from civilization at this point?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

No, not entirely, no. I still had sort of little encounters here and there and I was trading them. Snake skin, lizard skin, little carvings that I did different things. So I'd been trading with the local.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Sort of fringe dollars for a while.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And I had other ways of getting cash as well.

[Julian Morgans]

Like what?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Okay, well at the time, a tick to a vet was worth a dollar. So vets were paying a dollar a tick and I had lots of ticks.

[Julian Morgans]

Why? Why were they worth a dollar?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Because at the time they were developing serums and anti vaccines for the paralysis ticket.

[Julian Morgans]

Ah, of course, yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yep. And I mean I could, I could collect 30, 40, 50 ticks in a.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Day.

[Julian Morgans]

Without getting paralyzed.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Without. Yeah, well, I, I mean I had me encounters with the ticks. I had it once I had a tick in the middle of my back and I couldn't get it out.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And that caused me a lot of grief for a long time.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

But another thing that I would do, and I shouldn't say this, but I will, is in Mount Gunangarry. It was only about a three, three and a half day walk down to Byron Bay or down to the ocean and I would catch little fish, little subtropical fish, and I would take them into the pet shop and for some of those fish, a certain type of fish, they would give me a hundred dollars for a little fish. So there were ways of gaining money. And you know, I'd started brewing my own beer in there in a wet wort, which is a skill in itself, which made me very sick. I was growing my own dope. It was pretty good stuff and I was selling that to the hippies. So. And then about four years in.

[Julian Morgans]

Whoa, hold on. Four years in? So you must have had a pretty established little base at this time, like a little camp.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, well, I wouldn't call it. Yeah, it was established. Yeah. I hadn't built a shelter. I couldn't afford to have a shelter because up in that area aerial reconnaissance was constant.

[Julian Morgans]

They were looking for people growing weed.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Exactly right. Because it was a renowned, high quality.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Produce center for marijuana. So you get the helicopters come in quite regularly and so I needed to be alert to that.

[Julian Morgans]

What were you sleeping on?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Well, that was one of My daily routines was to freshen up my bed. Well, that was while I was sober or not too stoned. Was to go and refresh my bed with leaves and ferns.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

So it was just a couple of or several long branches covered in ferns and leaves. It was quite comfortable.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And this is over the top of rock, so it wasn't keeping you out of the mud.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Okay.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. But nothing. Nothing over the top. You didn't have a roof. You were. You were happy to lay in the rain?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, yeah, I'd sleep in the rain. I had.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I had a.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Dry as a bone for a while until that rotted away. And then I would, you know, go down to St. Vini's and grab a blanket or something. But I remember about two weeks after I was there, maybe three, maybe a bit longer, I'm not sure now, but I was laying there one night and I felt this little sort of a tickle and a tuck on my side. And then it sort of started going across. And I thought, that's a snake. And I lay there and I was frozen. I was just as still as. Cause I didn't. And I knew it was a snake and I was going across and it was a really. It was a big snake. Anyway, I waited until it had gone right across. I jumped up and I grabbed a stick out of the fire and I'm looking around and it was a massive python. It probably would have been, you know, a good six, seven feet long. Wow. And I grabbed it and I sort of wrung its head off. And I like breakfast. So it was before I became a vegetarian.

[Julian Morgans]

How was it? How's python?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Oh, look, it was very satisfying, actually.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Because there was a lot of meat in it. It's a sweet meat. It's sweet white meat.

[Julian Morgans]

Really? Like frog or fish.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, kind of.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

I suppose that's a comparison. For a while in there, my main diet consisted of fruit bat because I found a bat colony as well. So. And I used to, you know, it took me a while to work out how to use a slingshot to knock out. Knock the bats out of the tree. But, yeah, so I was eating back for quite a while up there as well. And they just taste like urine.

[Julian Morgans]

Sounds great.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, well, they hang upside down and. Yeah. But I mean, they were nutritious.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

They served a point.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Until I. Until I made that decision to become vegetarian.

[Julian Morgans]

So how did you become a vegetarian in the bush?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Well, I became a vegetarian by deciding not to eat my friends anymore. The way I coped or supplemented that was with the Income that I was generating from all the little enterprises that I had. You know, I go in, I'd buy dry beans, like navy beans, soy products, rice, and I bring a whole lot of that up. Everything. Mushrooms, lots of good mushrooms in the forest. I certainly learned that. Well, gold tops don't grow in the forest.

[Julian Morgans]

They're the hallucinogenic ones.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, yeah. Every February, I'd go and I'd harvest stack loads of gold tops. I'd dry them out and preserve them for my basic needs during the year. And then there were other mushrooms, like the purple manes, which are also hallucinogenic. So I used quite a few of those as well.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so you were still in a period where escapism was important to you. You'd escaped, but you were still escaping.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, well, one thing I learned quite profoundly, yeah, probably six months is into that journey, was that I took myself with me and all of the associated demons and challenges and everything else that went with that. So as much as I sort of.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Imagined for a short period of time that I had that freedom from all that pain, and it came back to me in spades. And that's why I started brewing the home brews in the forest and getting drunk in the forest. That was to kill the pain. Growing the pot to kill the pain. Eventually, you know, I was eating the marijuana. I was just eating the heads off.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

The marijuana and washing it down with beer brew. And that was my diet.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Jeez.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

I became very ill. Very, very ill. Like, I could reach into my mouth and pull my teeth out.

[Julian Morgans]

Right.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And I actually did. That.

[Julian Morgans]

Sounds like you had scurvy.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Very much so. Very much so.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, we're going to take a quick ad break, but stick around because we'll be back with more what it was like. This episode is brought to you by Ruler, the online mental health provider. So, recently I was going through a bit of a rough patch. My girlfriend was away for a couple of months. I was moving house, and it just felt like I was trying to juggle a few too many things all at once. And I kind of just wanted to talk it through with someone. You know, I wanted a therapist and I didn't know where to start. And that's what's so good about online therapy. That's what's so good about Ruler. They don't require a GP referral. You don't have to shop around trying to find the right person. You just go online, you. You answer a few quick questions and they match you with someone who really fits what you need. So if you haven't done therapy before, rula makes that first step just so easy. They've got more than 15,000 licensed therapists. They're all vetted and so it's not on you to go and find someone. And you know what? Therapy works. It just does. So if you've been thinking about starting therapy or getting back into it, Ruler, that's R U L A. It's a really simple, affordable way to do it. Thousands have already trusted Ruler to support them on their journey towards improved mental health and overall well being. So head on over to ruler.com what it was like and get started today. And also after you sign up, they ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them that our show sent you. Go to Rula, that's r u l a.com what it was like and take that first step towards better mental health today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. That's ruler.com.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Oh, the car from Carvana's here.

[Julian Morgans]

Well, will you look at that. It's exactly what I ordered.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Like precisely.

[Julian Morgans]

It would be crazy if there were any catches.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

But there aren't, right?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Right.

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[Julian Morgans]

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[Dr. Gregory Smith]

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[Julian Morgans]

Can I make my site firmer?

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[Dr. Gregory Smith]

So.

[Julian Morgans]

So when you're out there in the forest day after day, and, I mean, you were there for a long time, right? You were there for a decade.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Did those days move quickly?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Time didn't exist.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I positioned a stick in the ground, and I watched that stick for years. And when I say I watched the stick, I watched the shadow of the stick. And what I learned just from that experience was that the sun comes up.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

In a different position every, you know, every three months. I learned a whole lot of things just from watching a stick and a shadow.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

What.

[Julian Morgans]

What was the single most beautiful thing that you ever witnessed in your 10 years in the bush?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Misty mornings, standing on the top of.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

A cliff overlooking the Huon Valley. It's like a gorge, and it's full of fog or mist, and you feel like you can walk out on top of it to the other side. It's an amazingly beautiful thing. Blue sky after a rainy night. The smell of the freshness of the forest, the sounds of the birds. And then you look out over this. It's a sheer cliff with a waterfall going over it. You know, it's 250ft. And to look out at that fog that's sitting there, that looks solid. And you can fairly. Can walk out across it.

[Julian Morgans]

Hmm. Wow, that does sound nice.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

That's a beautiful thing.

[Julian Morgans]

I understand one day that someone left a note for you out in the bushes.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Ah, yes.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah. There were not a lot of trails in and out of the forest. And, you know, I used to vary the trails, but this particular time I went out and there was a note to the wild man in the forest. I have a dwelling on my land if you would like to come and talk to me, and you can live in there. I just don't recall the exact wording, but that was the context, the main message of the note.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, I wasn't really interested, to be honest.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

But on one of my trading expeditions sometime later, somebody asked me, did you get that note that was left for you? And I said, yeah, I saw that. It took me ages to read it. I couldn't because I didn't read or write.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And they said to me, you know, the only reason that he wants you to live in that place on his land is to stop people going in because everyone's afraid of you. I took that as a compliment.

[Julian Morgans]

So you were being hired as a kind of bulldog?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Never thought of it that way, but, yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Towards the end, I was sitting by a campfire. I Was really sick. I weighed about 42 kilos. I had no focus. I couldn't concentrate on anything. All I wanted to do was die. And I was walking around muttering, ah, you know, how long before I die? I just want to die. I had imaginations that would send a lot of people crazy, I'm sure. And then one night at the campfire. I'm sitting there and these aliens come. They just, you know, they'd been sort of. I knew they were around. I knew that they were around for a couple of weeks. They'd been sort of watching me. But then this particular night, they came in. They sat there and they said. They said to me, you need to leave. I said, no, I don't. I'm not going to leave. I want to die here. And they say, well, that would contradict your. You know, what you're saying about hurting people. You say you don't want to hurt people anymore. And I said, well, no, I just want to die here. That way I can't hurt anyone. They challenged me to a debate, and the rules around the debate were very clear because I'd considered myself as. Although I thought I was stupid, I. And dumb. I thought I could debate rather well. And they challenged me to see my strength. They took on my ego right there. They took me on. We will challenge you to a debate. If you win the debate, you will leave you. You'll never see us again, and you can die in the forest. If we win, you pack your stuff up, tomorrow, you go out, and you give society another chance. I said, you're on.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

The arrogance of a sick person.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

So they started.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Or actually, I started. That's right, I started. And I said, I want a day up here because I've hurt too many people in my life and I don't want to hurt anyone else. And I can be worm food up here and fertilize the forest, and at least I'm doing something good. You ever tried to play yourself chess, Julian?

[Julian Morgans]

I have not. But I can imagine you can't win.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

And that's what they did to me. They used my thinking against me. Because what they said is, if you stay up here and die, yes, yeah, that'll be the end of your pain. But you'll also create pain for your daughter and the rest of your family, Because I will never have closure on your life. You can just as easily walk into the society, die in the gutter. Your body will be found, your family will have closure. It'll be the same outcome. I couldn't argue with that.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yeah. So I was forced the next day to pack up my few possessions, clean up the space and leave the forest. Now, it was about a day and a half took me to get back into, onto the roads, but when I.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Hit the road, when I got onto the road, I was hit by a car and according to witnesses, the car stopped and then reversed over me.

[Julian Morgans]

What? Why?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

I have no idea. But what it did do is it put me in hospital.

[Julian Morgans]

Right.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Cause the ambulance was called, they picked me up, took me to hospital and that's probably where I needed to be at that time. So when I reflect on that, that was a good thing that that happened. And what happened at that time was.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

The social workers and the hospital staff.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

The nurses, the doctors were able to stabilise my condition. Like I said, I was 42 kilos.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I was psychotic, really in a bad psychological space, really bad physical space. I didn't know who I was. The social workers were able to establish.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

My identity and I was expected to die within 12 months. They didn't give me much hope for living and I ended up on a disability support pension which gave me an income. And it not only that, they back paid me about three months.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Wow.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

But then I moved up to Tweed Heads, Gold Coast.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Still homeless.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

You know, I've got this free money coming in and of course, what does an alcoholic drug addict do with a whole lot of money? Goes and buys a whole lot of booze and drugs and fills a backpack up with the booze and drugs. One day I'm sitting on a park bench at the back of the Tweed Heads Hospital. It's a really nice spot, beautiful lawns, nice view onto the Tweed River. I'm sitting there and I've got my backpack. In the backpack I had a cask of fruit elixir, bottle of bourbon, couple of cans of beer, couple of packets of drum tobacco with telly hose, a satchel of cocaine, some speed, just in case I needed it.

[Julian Morgans]

This is quite the Hunter S Thompson medicine kit.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Everything a drug addict wants. I mean, I was in my glory. Yeah. Just starting to feel a little bit better, you know, putting some weight on. Had some sensible thinking going on. I said, yeah. And I'm sitting there on that park bench and I'm thinking, wow, this is great. If only I have one person that I could talk to to tell all my problems to, I might be all right. That was not a good thought for.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

The loneliest man in the world.

[Julian Morgans]

Why not?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Because all of a sudden I realized I was sitting there.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I was 45 years old.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Everything I owned was in that backpack. That was the sum of my life, in that backpack. I did not have one friend in the world. I was 45 years old. I did not have one friend in the world. And all of a sudden I felt I had this memory when I was a kid. I had this raging fire in my gut, this ambition of life, the passion to go out and do something. And I sat there on that park bench that day. And all that was left of that passion, of that raging fire was a tiny little amber. And again, I just wanted to reach in and put it out. And when I thought of that, I want to reach in and put it out. Suddenly I was standing there and I could not see past my nose. There was this fog and I could not see past my nose. And I was tired and I was angry. And very slowly, this fog started to recede. And as the fog receded, I could see my arms. And I suddenly knew that I had to fight. I had to fight. There was another fight coming. Then the fog receded further and I could see in my hands I held this great big double edged sword. And I was ready to weld it. I was ready to strike out at whatever foe, whatever demon was coming at me. I was ready. Then the fog receded further and I could see around me all this devastation and all this destruction. There was just chaos and calamity, but I couldn't see anyone. And the fog receded all the way to the horizon and there was no one there. It was just an eerie silence. And I'm looking out over this and then all of a sudden, it struck me with a massive blow. It struck me there was never ever anyone else there that I was fighting. I had created all this destruction, fighting myself. My whole life I'd been fighting myself. And I dropped to my knees and I said, I don't want to fight anymore. And I tried to throw that sword away. And I couldn't. It was like it was a part of me and I couldn't get rid of that sword. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, I was sitting back on the park bench and I was sitting there and the sun was warm on me. And I thought, I will do whatever I need to do not to be this person sitting here on this bench today. And I looked at that backpack and I got up and I walked away. I had nothing except the clothes I was wearing and the money in my pocket. I've never had a drink of alcohol. I've never had a drug and I've never had a cigarette since that day.

[Julian Morgans]

Wow. That's incredible.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

I was still homeless and I was still feeding the mosquitoes in the swamp. Sleeping in the swamp, down the mangroves. I was eating out of the soup kitchens. But my vision, my focus was different. I was determined not to be that person anymore. I didn't know how I was going to do it. I didn't know what I had to do. I just knew that I had to do it. I didn't realize it at the time, but the most difficult journey that I would ever undertake was in front of me. But at the same time, it would be the most amazing journey.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, we're going to take a quick ad break, but stick around because we'll be back with more what it was like. Did I talk too much?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Can't I just let it go?

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[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

So I found myself at the age of, I think, 48, enrolling in university, doing an undergrad with sociology. Why sociology? When I was going through all the.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Coursework, I looked at sociology and it.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Said the study of society. And I thought, yes, I want to do sociology because I want to understand why I hate society so much. As it turns out, I don't hate. I didn't hate society. I just didn't understand society. Nobody ever taught me how to be a part of society. But I did that. I started doing that undergrad and I was quite good at it. I enjoyed the study. I was getting towards the end of my undergrad and I got a phone call from a person in the university, a senior lecturer in the university. And the phone call went along the lines of, hello, Gregory, I've been looking at your transcripts. I'd like you to come and Work for me. Oh, okay. What doing? Well, I'd like you to start off marking for me and then maybe doing some tutoring. I said, okay.

[Julian Morgans]

So this was another lecturer at the university?

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yes, it was, yes. In sociology.

[Julian Morgans]

Ah, okay.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Took me about 0.009 seconds to make a decision around that. Yeah, the money was actually quite good. It wasn't a cleaning job. I didn't have to stand outside in the sun all day picking fruit or chipping cotton or something like that. I mean, this was a prestigious job. Yeah, yeah. All of a sudden I'm thinking, I've made it. And then she said, but there's a condition.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

You're right.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Always a condition, isn't it?

[Julian Morgans]

Here we go.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Yeah, yeah, here we go. She said, and that is that you continue your studies. She said, I'd like you to go on and do an honours. I didn't even know what an honors was. I mean, I was struggling to understand what an undergrad was, but I got myself organised and decided I would do it. And it took me 12 months to do my honours and that was sent away and graded and it came back honours, first class.

[Julian Morgans]

Wow.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Exceptionally high grade. Wow. And that won me an Australian scholarship into a PhD.

[Julian Morgans]

Wow. And now, I mean, you are. You're a lecturer, you're an author, you're a TEDx speaker. I mean, it feels like a fairly neat narrative at this point where it was bad made good. But do you see it that way or do you still see it as a journey unfolding?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

It's a journey. It continues to unfold. I mean, June this year I started a not for profit and that not for profits, to help vulnerable Australians. Disadvantaged Australians. And I do a lot of work with people that have experienced domestic violence, people that have experienced drug and alcohol issues, people with homelessness. I have the lived experience, I have the knowledge and the know how of how to stop these things from happening. Yeah, I want to do that.

[Julian Morgans]

So how can people help?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Talk to me, talk to me about funding with outcomes, KPI's real, genuine strategic programs in place to help people avoid becoming homeless in the first place.

[Julian Morgans]

And we'll put your website in the. In the show notes, of course. I've just got a few more questions before you finish up here. When you look back on this emotional journey that you've been through, what role did your time in the bush play?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

That period I spent in the bush was critical to becoming who I am today because that's that time of self reflection. I mean, it wasn't wasted time, you know, While I was in the bush, I asked the important questions, who am I? Why was my father like he was? Why was my mother like she was? I'd learned while I was in the bush to understand their traumas, to understand that although they didn't do what they did was not good enough. You know, they had their own issues as well.

[Julian Morgans]

So there's a bit of forgiveness there.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

You know, I could understand, you know, and. And through forgiving them, I was able to forgive myself. Yeah, I started to understand the nature of self respect. I would sit at the campfires night after night after night having all these philosophical, ethical, moral debates with myself. What I learned from all these debates.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Was I'm actually a good person. Inside my core belief system, my core.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Spirit is about wanting equity for people. I don't like to see people disadvantaged. I don't like to see these injustices perpetrated on people. And that's the battle that I've taken on with that double edged sword that I could not throw away in that epiphany. I use that sword today as a tool to lobby governments, to lobby ministers, to lobby agencies and organizations to try to help people. Because I have a deep understanding of what those vulnerabilities feel like. The shame, the stigma, the australization of a human being from a community.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

That's why I tell my story.

[Julian Morgans]

I think I came to your story because I often find myself wanting to just leave it all behind and just go live in the forest. I often have this fantasy, particularly when I'm stuck in traffic. And I think it's just because I just believe, I just innately believe that somehow the natural order is far more beautiful and far more meaningful than this sort of trivial nonsense that we've created for ourselves. But what I'm curious to know is like once you start doing it, once you're out there, you're living in that environment, is it better? Is it somehow innately More. Right, more. Is it a happier place to live?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I think that's a very complicated question, but at the same time a very simple question.

[Julian Morgans]

I complicated it.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

No, I think to do that by.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Yourself is to flirt with your own demons and your own sanity.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

To do it with someone else or.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

A group of people, like minded people, I think would be highly beneficial to a person's spirit. At the same time, there needs to be a conduit in which you can expand your knowledge base. You need that outside information coming in and you need to be able to feed the information out as Well, I think that's a. A really important thing for a human being to be able to do. To put it simply, to have a diverse array of conversations with different people, that's really important.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so thinking that you could just live with trees as friends and, you know, be amongst the butterflies and the. And the birds, you're saying that's inadequate. You essentially need human contact.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

I think a person could do that for, you know, depending on the individual weeks, months, maybe even a year, maybe even two years. But I think over time, that would have detrimental effects on a person's psyche.

[Julian Morgans]

Did your time in the bush kind of enrichen your belief in spirituality or your sort of belief in a divine power?

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. And I mean, it's interpretations of divine power. The universe is a wonderful thing. It's a pretty amazing thing, spirituality. It's helped me connect to all my ancestors, all the way back to my very first ancestors. There's a deep understanding. I used to wander around the country thinking I have no purpose. What's my purpose in life? My purpose in life is very clear.

[Dr. Gregory Smith (Narrative Voice)]

Today, and that is to represent my.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Ancestors, my forebears and my offspring the best way I can. I am a mere link in a long chain of human beings. The way I carry myself reflects on them, on all of them. That's why what I do is important, because it reflects on my mother, my father, my grandfather, all my ancestors. It also builds something that my children can look at and say, I am proud to be a part of that.

[Julian Morgans]

Well, look, I think there's just so much there that you've said, and I've been nodding vigorously and I'm feeling inspired. So thanks so much for sharing your story with me.

[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Absolute pleasure. Julian. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

If you've enjoyed today's episode and you want to find out more, you can go to Dr. Gregory Smith's website. It is Dr. Gregory Smith.com and you can also read his new book, which is called Better Than Happiness, the True Antidote to Discontent. So please check out the website, check out the book, donate to his charity if you have the means. And thanks for listening. What It Was like is produced by Rachel Tuffrey. This episode was edited by Ellie Dickey, who also does our research. Our cover art is by Rich Akers. Our theme music was produced by Jimmy Saunders, and this whole thing has been a super real production.

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[Dr. Gregory Smith]

Can I make my site softer?

[Julian Morgans]

Can I make my site firmer?

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Can we sleep cooler?

[Sleep Number Advertiser]

Sleep Number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side your Sleep Number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. It's our Black Friday sale. Recharge this season with a bundle of cozy, soothing comfort. Now only $17.99 for our C2 mattress and base plus free premium delivery price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Check it out at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.