I Was Held Captive in This House for 11 Years

Summary

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What It Was Like — Episode Summary

Episode: “I Was Held Captive in This House for 11 Years”

Podcast: What It Was Like
Host: Julian Morgans
Guest: Lily Rose Lee (formerly Michelle Knight)
Release Date: January 8, 2026

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Overview

In this intensely moving episode, host Julian Morgans speaks with survivor Lily Rose Lee (formerly Michelle Knight) about her abduction and 11-year captivity at the hands of Ariel Castro in Cleveland, Ohio. They explore not only the horrifying details of Lily's ordeal—from her abduction as a teenager to the daily abuses she suffered and narrowly survived—but also her resilience, survival strategies, and ongoing journey of healing and hope. The conversation is raw, candid, occasionally dark, and ultimately inspirational, providing a visceral insight into long-term captivity and what it truly takes to reclaim life after unimaginable trauma.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Lily’s Difficult Childhood

• Background (06:28):
  • Lily describes her upbringing filled with instability, abuse, and uncertainty.
  • “I would say my life was horrible. We were moving to one place to the next. I didn't even know when we were going to have a bed to sleep in or we going to be sleeping in a car.” — Lily (06:28)
• Early adulthood brought more challenges, including losing custody of her young son due to abuse in her mother's home.

2. The Day of Abduction

• Events leading up to abduction (08:42):
  • Lily accepted a ride from her friend’s father, Ariel Castro, while trying to reach an appointment about regaining custody of her son.
  • She describes Castro as unremarkable and trustworthy in appearance, someone from her familiar circle.
• The trap (10:25–12:45):
  • Castro lured Lily with a story about giving her a puppy.
  • Once inside his house, “the door was already locked behind me. I had no way out.”
  • “Then he opens a door, shoves me through it, and said, 'You'll never see home again.'” — Lily (02:17, 12:02)
• Violent restraint:
  • Tied and hung from a wall, gagged, and left for weeks: “He hung me up like an ornament on the wall, like a fish. He tied me up around my legs, my arms, and my neck. I was hanging this far off the ground.” — Lily (12:02)

3. Early Captivity: Dehumanization and Survival

• Physical suffering (14:34–16:45):
  • Forced to soil herself, starve, and endure sensory deprivation.
  • “I was forced to go on myself.”
• Isolation and fear:
  • She describes the numbness and confusion of extended sensory deprivation and pain.
  • She refused food and water initially, fearing contamination.

4. Adjustment & Mental Survival

• Retention of hope (19:41):
  • Lily was clear-minded in her focus on escape, even in her most broken moments.
  • “I was waiting for a moment that he let his guard down.”
• Social isolation:
  • Interaction with others in the early months was limited; friends and family noise from downstairs was rare and unreachable.

5. Arrival of Other Victims & Changes in Captivity

• Amanda Berry’s abduction (20:35–23:47):
  • Lily describes knowing another girl was abducted and the odd, “quiet” day as Castro prepared another room.
  • On seeing Amanda: “She said, 'Oh my God, I'm glad you know who I am.' And she gave me a hug and we both cried, even though we shouldn't have cried, because that's what he gets off on, is misery.” — Lily (23:28)
• Common experiences of violence and control:
  • All captives were subjected to psychological terror: threats, beatings, and being weaponized against each other.
  • “He was more like a Jekyll and Hyde.” — Lily (23:50)

6. Prolonged Captivity: Daily Routine and Despair

• Emotional impacts (26:58–28:46):
  • The monotony and psychological suffering created periods of hopelessness and thoughts of suicide.
  • Lily relates an escape attempt foiled at the last minute, capturing the relentless “almosts” that defined her years inside.

7. Forced Birth, Miscarriages, and Trauma

• Delivering Amanda’s child (29:56–33:13):
  • Lily was made to deliver Amanda Berry’s baby, despite her own repeated forced miscarriages.
  • “For so many years he had beaten me and aborted five of… my babies. Being forced to help somebody give birth. It was like, eh…I didn't really want to do it.” — Lily (30:07)
  • She saved the baby’s life, feeling in that moment that “God was bringing a special gift to all three girls because there’s no way that this guy can keep a baby in this house for so long and not get caught.” — Lily (33:13)
• Questions on why Castro did not allow Lily’s pregnancies to continue:
  • Her need for C-sections was his rationalization; he preferred to avoid medical intervention.

8. Escape Attempts and Physical Decline

• Escape stories (35:05–36:33):
  • Lily recounts a failed attempt to jump the fence, made impossible by extreme weakness and malnutrition.
  • Brutal daily sustenance: “He was just feeding us ramen noodles, hot dogs, and grease. That's disgusting, by the way.” — Lily (36:16)
• Gina’s arrival and Lily’s “big sister” role (37:07):
  • Gina, the youngest and most vulnerable, inspired Lily to protect and support her.
  • “There was days that I stepped in, and I took the abuse. I've done it when I was little for my brothers.” — Lily (37:56)

9. Psychological Manipulation and Near-Rescue

• Hopelessness and missed rescue (39:29–40:34):
  • A moment when police were within reach at a neighboring house almost led to freedom, but Castro intervened just in time.
  • “That was my pivotal moment, where I wish the officer would have turned around and looked right at me.” — Lily (40:34)
• Suicidal ideation and “miraculous” survival (41:00–42:52):
  • Lily survived a suicide attempt and a near-fatal allergic reaction, attributing her continued life to divine intervention.
  • “For some odd reason, God broke the rope, and I'm still here.” — Lily (42:38)

10. The Escape (43:07–47:38)

• Final day:
  • Castro left the house and failed to secure the doors; Amanda was able to summon help.
  • “I pushed it open, I peeked out, and I said, Amanda, are you okay?… I seen a shiny badge. And then they said, we found them. We found them. And I ran straight up in their arms and said, ‘Don’t let me go. Please don’t let me go.’” — Lily (45:14)
  • “I kissed the ground and said, thank God.” — Lily (47:39)
• Physical collapse upon rescue:
  • Lily required immediate hospitalization and was diagnosed with a life-threatening bacterial infection from years of neglect.

11. Aftermath and Healing

• Lack of family support (52:13–52:31):
  • Lily’s parents did not come to see her after the rescue: “I don't know.” — Lily (52:36)
• Public response:
  • “All the outpouring love and support… was amazing. Their love and support helped us build the life, rebuild our life.” — Lily (52:50)
• Media scrutiny (53:43–54:53):
  • Lily criticized the intrusive and insensitive press, advising, “Sometimes it's best to wait and let someone heal first and then let them be at their best so they can help the others out there that are going through similar situations.” — Lily (54:39)

12. The System and Long Road to Recovery

• Financial realities (55:44–56:51):
  • Donations from the public helped, but there was no substantial compensation; donations were taxed and split among the victims.
• Health challenges (57:03–57:12):
  • Long, difficult recovery: “I was in hospice for a year.” — Lily (57:10)
• Reunion with son denied (57:38–58:49):
  • Her son’s adoptive family refused contact due to fears about media and notoriety.
  • “What happened to me shouldn't be the reasons why I can't see my son.” — Lily (58:34)
• Lasting physical consequences:
  • Lily was left infertile, partially blind, partially deaf because of Castro’s violence (58:58).

13. Castro’s Fate and Forgiveness

• Castro’s suicide and Lily’s response (59:34–60:25):
  • Castro killed himself in prison. Lily’s reaction was detached, centered on forgiveness:
  • “In order to heal myself, I had to forgive. I will never forget… But I wanted to break the emotional chain of a devil. Because I didn't want the devil to win.” — Lily (60:04)

14. Faith, Freedom, and Moving Forward

• Discovery of faith (60:35–61:00):
  • Lily found spirituality during captivity after a childhood without belief: “I had to reteach myself everything… because I was taught lies.” — Lily (60:35)
• Not in touch with fellow survivors (61:00–61:48):
  • All three women went their separate ways after freedom, finding it too hard to maintain contact.

15. Lily’s Life Today and Philosophy

• Message of resilience and hope:
  • “Telling my story helps others that are going through similar situations know that they are the hero of their own story and they are stronger than what they think they are. And to never give up on yourself.” — Lily (61:58)
  • “Life is too short to be mad and upset at the world… I choose to look at the brighter side of life and try not to be so angry.” — Lily (62:20)
• Survivor wisdom and humor (64:44):
  • “They're miserable in their own life, and they have nothing better to do than to pick on somebody like me. And you know what they can do to herself? Kick rocks.” — Lily (64:44)
• Joy in present life (64:58–65:45):
  • Lily is now married to a supportive partner and surrounds herself with beloved pets, art, and positivity.
  • “He said to me, I want to know you for who you are today, not what happened to you in the past. And that made my heart melt.” — Lily (65:05)
• Encouragement for contact and commissions (66:29):
  • Lily invites listeners to connect via her Facebook, commission paintings, or request speaking engagements.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He hung me up like an ornament on the wall, like a fish… The only thing that he gave me to lay my head on was a wooden box at this point.”
  — Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight), (12:02; 19:02)

• “I was sitting here watching him go through my purse, and he takes the picture of my son, and he rips it up in front of me. And at that point, I just, like, literally punched the wall because I was done.”
  — Lily (13:12)

• “There was one time when he wasn't paying attention, and I literally tried to jump over the fence… I ripped the inside of my leg on the fence…”
  — Lily (35:05)

• “I felt like God was bringing a special gift to all three girls because there’s no way that this guy can keep a baby in this house for so long and not get caught.”
  — Lily (33:13)

• “For some odd reason, God broke the rope, and I'm still here.”
  — Lily (42:38) describing her suicide attempt

• “I pushed it open, I peeked out, and I said, Amanda, are you okay?… I seen a shiny badge. And then they said, we found them. We found them. And I ran straight up in their arms and said, ‘Don’t let me go. Please don’t let me go.’”
  — Lily (45:14)

• “Their love and support helped us build the life, rebuild our life.”
  — Lily (53:10)

• “In order to heal myself, I had to forgive. I will never forget what happened to me… But I wanted to break the emotional chain of a devil. Because I didn't want the devil to win.”
  — Lily (60:04)

• “Telling my story helps others… know that they are the hero of their own story and they are stronger than what they think they are. And to never give up on yourself.”
  — Lily (61:58)

• “They're miserable in their own life… You know what they can do to herself? Kick rocks.”
  — Lily (64:44)

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Important Segments and Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:17 | Lily describes the moment of her abduction | | 06:28 | Details of her troubled childhood and path to motherhood | | 12:02 | The onset of captivity—first hours and days, physical torment | | 20:35 | Arrival of another victim, Amanda Berry | | 29:56 | Forced to deliver Amanda’s baby after suffering her own lost pregnancies | | 35:05 | Failed escape attempts and physical effects of long-term captivity | | 37:07 | Gina’s arrival; Lily’s protective “big sister” role | | 41:00 | Lily’s suicide attempt and near-death experiences | | 45:14 | Description of the final day: escape and rescue, culminating in “Don’t let me go.” | | 53:43 | Reflections on the media, advice to journalists and the public | | 55:44 | Reality of compensation and financial support | | 57:38 | Unable to reconnect with her son post-escape | | 59:34 | Reaction to Castro’s suicide and the journey to forgiveness | | 61:58 | Empowering message for other survivors | | 62:20 | “I choose to look at the brighter side of life and try not to be so angry” — Lily's current outlook | | 64:44 | “Kick rocks” — Lily on coping with negativity and criticism | | 64:58 | Happiness and love in the present: marriage, pets, and creative work | | 66:29 | Informing listeners on how to contact and support Lily |

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is an unflinching but ultimately hopeful exploration of the darkest and brightest parts of human nature. Lily’s candor about suffering, her pragmatic yet optimistic view of life, and her advocacy for other survivors make for a deeply affecting listen. Through her testimony, listeners gain rare insight into both the horrors of captivity and the strength it takes to reclaim one’s future.

To contact or support Lily, or commission a painting, visit her Facebook (Lilian Lee), as shared in the episode.

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Transcript

[Julian Morgans]

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[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

It wasn't until we got inside the house that I seen the red flags. But then it was already too late. The door was already locked behind me. And then even more, you know, heaviness. My heart started pounding as we're going up the stairs. And then he opens a door, shoves me through it. And said, you'll never see home again.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, I'm Julian Morgans, and you're listening to what It Was like, the show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. Hey, friends, welcome back. We are going to start this brand new year with something that's a first for me. So I get asked on a semi regular basis how I cope with. With some of the stories that we do. You know, if you're a longtime listener, you'll know that some of our stories get pretty dark. So I think the honest answer is that most of the time, I kind of just cope. You know, I think I've heard of war photographers talk about how the camera lens puts a bit of buffer between them and their subject or them and the trauma, really. And I'm hardly claiming to be a war photographer, but I think my microphone attached achieves a similar outcome. But in this episode that didn't quite work. This. This is the first episode that I've worked on that I found really genuinely difficult to hear. And that's not because it's full of particularly graphic violence or, you know, sexual assault or something. I think we've done way more graphic episodes in the past. But it's just about the mindset behind this case that I found pretty hard to sit with. So we're going to end. Enter the world of this man who abducted three women over 11 years and held them in captivity and not as prized trophies, but just in absolute filth and neglect. And these women, they weren't. They weren't really women. They were all teenagers or very early 20s. You know, they were young. And I think there's something in that treatment of kids that I find really yark. Now, having said that, I don't think it's a reason to skip this one. And that's just simply because this show is all about exploring humanity and its extremes. And this is a story that really explores just how dark humans can get. But I also think there's a lot of awe in this story, too. I think just the wild ability of humans to adjust to horrible norms, you know, the. The tenacity of survival instincts. Because as you'll hear our guest, she managed to somehow adjust to this reality over over a decade, more than a decade, and she survived and she managed to get out. Today I'm speaking with a woman named Lily Rose Lee. Now, that's her name today. It's who she's become as a survivor. But back in 2002, her name was Michelle Knight, and she accepted a lift From a friend's dad, this man named Ariel Castro. Okay? He's our bad guy in this episode. He's their captor. And he took her back to his house in Cleveland, where he locked her up in an upstairs room, and she didn't leave the house for 11 years. It wasn't until 2013, after two more women had been kidnapped, that one of them managed to escape and alerted the police. So today you're going to hear about what it's like to be taken to survive years of captivity and then to rebuild a body and a mind after that kind of ordeal. So here is Lily Rosalie. Hey, Lily. Welcome to the show.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Thank you for having me.

[Julian Morgans]

Thanks for driving an hour through, what, Ohio's freeways to come see me.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

You're welcome.

[Julian Morgans]

I'd love to hear a little bit about your background before we get into this story. So do you want to tell me a little bit about your childhood?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So my childhood wasn't like any other childhood. I went through a lot of difficulties as a child. I was bullied. I was abused by multiple people in my family. I would say my life was horrible. We were moving to one place to the next. I didn't even know when we were going to have a bed to sleep in or we going to be sleeping in a car. It was like you never knew what the next day was going to bring for you.

[Julian Morgans]

That sounds hard. That sounds like it didn't set you up in the best way for adulthood.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

No, not at all.

[Julian Morgans]

And I understand you. You had a little baby son in your early 20s. Could you tell me about that?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I actually end up falling in love with a guy that I thought was gonna, you know, save me from the world, that everything was going to be perfect. It felt like a, you know, a fairy tale love.

[Fin AI Ad]

Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

He came in at a difficult time. He loved me, regardless of what happened to me, who I was. And, like, literally, he just, like, lifted me off my feet and just, you know, been that person that I needed for so long. He showed me a little bit of what love was.

[Julian Morgans]

And, I mean, what happened to that relationship?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Unfortunately, because of our families and their difficult upbringing, I end up moving away from him. So the relationship ended.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And did you lose access to your baby boy?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I did. Unfortunately, I end up losing custody of my son because of a abusive situation that was happening inside my mom's home. Unfortunately, she had a boyfriend that literally one day he came home, you know, intoxicated and everything, and took it out on my son and me.

[Julian Morgans]

God, Lily, this has been a hard Run already. So take me to 2002. And I understand on the day you were abducted, you were running late for an appointment. Can you tell me about that?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So I was running late for an appointment to get my son back. This is the day that I was planning on getting a new apartment, moving away from my mom, and just being able to live life on my own. And I was very proud of myself. And unfortunately, the people gave me the wrong address. So I end up walking all the way back home, stopped at a family dollar store to call them to let them know that I'm going to be late. As I'm walking out of the family dollar, my friend's father, you know, comes up to me and says, hey, I know where that is. I can take you.

[Julian Morgans]

Your friend's father. So you'd met this guy a few times?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yep.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And could you just briefly describe him to me?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Oh, my gosh. He. He's kind of weird in a way, but he was. Oh, Spanish. He loved, you know, Spanish music. He was a. I would say he was a not a mean person, per se. When I first met him, we, you know, had gatherings together. It wasn't like he presented himself as an evil person.

[Julian Morgans]

So you felt like you knew him fairly well.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes. So getting in. Getting in the car wasn't like a major red flag to me. Yeah, because everybody's child gets in their best friend's, you know, father's car or their best friend's mom's car. You know, they really don't think of anything until something really bad actually happens.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So. So he intervened. You were running late for this appointment. And he's like, hey, Lily, I'll give you a lift. Jump in.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yeah. And then as we were driving, I noticed that he went the wrong way. Because I know which way to go. And I said, no, no, you're going the wrong way. He says. I wanted to stop by. It's on the way to the building. I wanted to stop by and get my daughter so you guys can, you know, go together. And, you know, I'm cool with that. You know, I wasn't thinking anything bad about it because he said that she was home. So I'm cool. Let's go ahead and pick her up. And as we were getting to the house, it wasn't until we got inside the house that I seen the red flags. But then it was already too late. The door was already locked behind me. I had no way out.

[Julian Morgans]

What were the red flags?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

He locked the door behind me. He said, my daughter My daughter and the dogs are upstairs, and I'm, like, this bad?

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So was. Was your friend, his daughter, actually there?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

He. She was not there.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

And he lied to me about the dogs being there as well, because he actually. When we were in the vehicle talking, he said that I could, because he knows my son loves dogs. And his dog had passed away, so he was gonna give me a puppy. And I heard Emily saying that, you know, his. The. My father said the dog had puppies. And I was like, okay.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

And that was a week. That was a week before, you know, all this even happened. So I was, like, pretty cool with everything. And like I said, until we got into the house and he locked the door. And then even more, you know, heaviness. My heart started pounding as we're going up the stairs. And then he opens a door, shoves me through it, and said, you'll never see home again. Then he proceeded to knock me to the floor. He grabbed an extension cord and rope and a dirty sock, taped it in my mouth. He hung me up like an ornament on the wall, like a fish. He tied me up around my legs, my arms, and my neck. I was hanging this far off the ground.

[BetterHelp Ad]

God.

[Julian Morgans]

From. From what, like a hook in the wall or something?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes. Basically, I was hanging on a. It was a rod that went all the way straight across, and it was hooked up into the wall. I literally dropped to the floor, begging him to let me go home. That's the only thing I can think of at that point. My legs went numb, and I just fell to the floor.

[Julian Morgans]

And what was his response?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

As I'm hooked up to this contraption on the wall like a fish. I am sitting here watching him go through my purse, and he takes the picture of my son, and he rips it up in front of me. And at that point, I just, like, literally punched the wall because I was done. And then fell back on the floor after. I, like. I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I was, like, punching. I was kicking. I was like. And even though I couldn't punch the wall, even though I couldn't do any of that, I was imagining in my head that I'm literally punching this wall. Cause that's what I wanted to do to him.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah. So your. Your hands were tied together, but in your mind's eye, you were punching.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

In my mind, I'm, like, literally imagining myself punching in the wall, punching and kicking and, you know, screaming off the top of my lungs. Even though there's nothing coming out of my mouth.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what happened.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

After? I would say a month or two later, he had. He had unhooked me.

[Julian Morgans]

Wait, hold on. A month or two? So you were. You were left in this room tied up in this way for a month?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, God.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So hanging there for a month or two because, you know, you can't really tell when suffering when the light goes out and the light comes back, you know, on. Because he bore. He, like, literally blocked the way to see outside, so I couldn't see nothing from the outside. Couldn't see no light, no nothing. Not unless he came in and turned on the light. That's how I knew that it was the very next day.

[Julian Morgans]

Did he give you food? I mean, how did you go to the toilet?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Unfortunately, this is disgusting part. I was forced to go on myself.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, no. And did he give you food and water?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

He gave me food and water, and I refused it because I didn't know what he did to it.

[Julian Morgans]

So you didn't eat for a month or two?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yep. And then I would say the second month is when he untied me and he told me to go downstairs. And I said, I can't walk. I can't move. And I. And I. My body was burning from the pee and, you know, everything that was inside my clothes. And he says, well, I'm gonna make you go down the stairs. So he drags me down the stairs by my arms, all the way down the stairs. My body was limp at this point. Like, being tied up that long. My. My functions were, like, saying, no, I can't. I. Even if I wanted to try to move my legs. And then he took me to the bathtub. He says, take a bath. And then I. That's the first time that I've taken a bath in his house.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, it's kind of a weird question to ask, but was that good? Like, having a bath? Was that kind of nice?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Oh, no, it burned.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Technically, when you're, like. When you're stuck in feces, the rash and the burning sensation of the water just hitting that area, it kind of was. Excruciating pain.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

But I did enjoy getting myself cleaned, even though it hurt it so bad.

[Julian Morgans]

Did he tell you anything about, like, what his plan was? I mean, this all just seems like such an act of opportunism at this point. It doesn't seem like he has a plan.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Um, he really didn't have a plan. He just wanted to be a bully. Yeah, he wanted to control. And I didn't know all the bits and pieces of his life until I was out of the house. I didn't know he had a wife, I didn't know he had a girlfriend. And I did not know that they were both abused by this guy. So it's like there's some things I didn't know about him.

[Julian Morgans]

And for this period that you've been in the house, like, you've been in the house for a month or two at this point. What about his daughter, who's your friend? Did you hear her downstairs?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

No, I didn't hear anybody until I would say, a month or two later after I was released from the hanging on the wall. At this point, I was attached to the basement pole. At this point. I've heard people coming in the house playing their instruments. Like friends of his. He would sit there and say, oh, that's just my dog in the basement making all that noise. Technically, it was me trying to get their attention.

[Julian Morgans]

And you were like, thumping and trying to scream.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I was. I literally was banging my body against the pole that was in a basement. And when he got done with his friends, he came down and he literally beat me for trying to get help.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Okay, so let's just stay with the chronology here for a moment. So he gave you a bath, and it sounds like he had decided to sort of house you a bit more long term in the basement. Is that right?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yep.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so he took you downstairs. Did he, like, give you some new clothes or, like, was there any sort of arrangement to prepare a bed for you or anything like that?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

There was no bed, but he did chain me up. He put a motorcycle helmet on my head. He put a chain around my neck and around my stomach and around my legs so I couldn't move. And the only thing that he gave me to lay my head on was a wooden box at this point. But he did give me new clothes.

[Julian Morgans]

And what's with the motorcycle helmet?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

It was to muffle my sound and to stop me from hitting the pole. Because at this point, I couldn't move. Once the helmet was on my head, it prevented space to do this.

[Julian Morgans]

God. What. What was going through your mind? I mean, you've had two months to think about this, you know. Where were you at emotionally?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Emotionally? I was waiting for a moment to get out of there.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I was waiting for a moment that he let his guard down.

[Julian Morgans]

You hadn't kind of given up. You weren't worried that you were going to die there. You were much more fixated on Escape?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes. I was definitely fixated on escaping.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And were there any. In that initial period, in those first couple of months, did you see any possibility of escape?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I didn't get any chance to escape until he basically is gonna go into the months where he moved me to the upstairs. And I would say this proximately. Trying to remember when Amanda was abducted. I know it was 2003, I think.

[Julian Morgans]

I think it was the following year. This was the. The next woman who was abducted was the following year.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yeah. So once she got. Because I was in the basement for quite some time, and then I was moved upstairs. And this is. I guess he planned this one because he kept on talking about a girl at Burger King.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Because he kept on. He came home, he told me, oh, yeah, I seen a girl at Burger King, and if I get her in my house, I will let you go. That's what he told me. And I was like, this is going to be bad, and this is a lie. That's the first thing I said. I knew that wasn't, like, he wasn't going to let me go, period. I've already seen too much. He's already told me too much. And by that next year, I think it was April, just before her birthday is when he brung her to the house.

[Julian Morgans]

Can you walk me through that day? How was. How was your experience of that?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

That's the day he took away the TV he gave me, and I'm assuming he gave it to her to watch the tv. It was very quiet. I heard a little bit of noise. He came upstairs and said, hey, I don't want to scare this girl. Be quiet. Because he said he was bringing in a friend. I don't want to scare her. I kind of was like, I doubt it.

[Julian Morgans]

Also, you are the least scary part of what he's bringing her home to.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yeah. And then I hear a noise of a female, and at that point of time, I didn't realize that she was outside. Like, he was bringing her in to take a bath, and then he was putting her back outside. I didn't know that until after the fact.

[Julian Morgans]

And how long was it until you met this other woman?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

The first time I actually seen her was when he brought her upstairs and he brought me a piece of pizza. The first pizza that he actually brought me. The only reason why I ate it is because I seen her eating it, so I knew it was good.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is the first company that you've had in a long time that's not your abductor and do you remember that experience?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So the experience was, is one day he took me downstairs to take another bath. That was like, quite a few months later. So he said, go in there. Don't be shy. So I went over there. She asked me, do I know who I was? Like, yeah, I said, I know who you are. I know you're the girl that's been missing since your birthday. And she said, how do you know who I am? And I said, I watched the TV before you took it away from me.

[Julian Morgans]

What did she say to that?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

She said, oh, my God, I'm glad someone. I'm glad you know who I am. And she gave me a hug and we both cried, even though we shouldn't have cried, because that's what he gets off on, is misery.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. What can you tell me about that?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So he did everything and anything to make us afraid of him, as far as beating us, threatening us with a gun, telling us, I will kill her if you try to run away or vice versa. So it's like whatever we try to do or we try to say or we try to be as calm as possible so we wouldn't agitate him to make his Jekyll and Hyde come out because he was more like a Jekyll and Hyde. He was one way and then another way.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I'm sorry to ask this, but I feel like I should. I mean, you guys were primarily being kept as, like, sex slaves, right? You were being sort of sexually assaulted regularly.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Basically. Basically each and every day there was some type of torture. Whether or not it be starving us or telling us that we can't take a bath or, you know, telling us we can't do anything, like sing or anything. Like, we couldn't do nothing.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, we're gonna take a quick ad break, but stick around because we'll be back with more what it was like.

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[Julian Morgans]

So you've been there for a year or so then now, like, this is a long time.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

And I'm curious, like, what was, what were the defining emotions of that period? You know, were you afraid or was it kind of just born boredom? Or like what was the, what was the mix of emotions?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I was totally bored out my mind. I tried anything and everything to, you know, just overpass the time. Memories of my son and, you know, us just chilling, watching TV or you know, just doing little silly things like finger painting and stuff like that.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Keep, you know, my mind off of what I was going through. Because it was, it was really hard. It was really hard. And I would say I was at the point where I was still hoping that one day he would let his guard down, but I was getting more closer to the point where, oh my gosh, I really don't want to be on this earth right now. I got a little bit closer that that edge of not wanting to be here. It's like most of the times when he did let his guard down, I was bound to the point where I couldn't do anything to even run. Now, the time that he had me upstairs, there was a pivotal moment when he was so drunk he left my chain unlocked and me had a bright idea to try to jump out the window. That didn't work out very well because as I was going ready to jump out the window, he comes running back upstairs and I'm assuming maybe he realized that he didn't put the chain on. So I ran to the bed. I locked it, but I locked it loosely. I didn't lock it that loose because I couldn't get it back off. But. And that's because I was trying to like, you get what I'm trying to say. Like, I was trying not to show that he left it off.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

But at that pivotal moment when I thought he was going to go back downstairs and I could have used the lotion to get the chain off, he took Me off the chain and took me downstairs. So unfortunately, I was unsuccessful.

[Julian Morgans]

So we locked you back in the basement.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yep.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh God, Lily.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So I was like back and forth to different rooms and multiple different parts of the house. He even had a thing called a cubby that he built himself for the living room. And I was chained up to that as well. Not. Not something I like to talk about because, you know, nobody ever likes to talk about pain and suffering and being abused for 11 years. You know, people don't like to talk about, you know, all the stuff.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, look, I won't make you relive torture. That's. That's not what I want to do. Amanda Berry, the other woman who he abducted, I understand that at a certain point he got her pregnant. Do you, do you remember this?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes, I remember it very clearly because when she was ready to have her baby, I was forced to deliver it.

[Julian Morgans]

Wow. What happened?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I was scared out my mind. I. I knew what I was doing, but not really because I've watched like, ER and stuff like that. But I was. I would like say I was not a doctor and anything could go wrong. And one of the things that he had done to me that like, it was just hurtful because for so many years he had beaten me and aborted five of. Five of my babies. It's like being forced to help somebody give birth. It was like, eh. You know, like I didn't really want to do it.

[Julian Morgans]

Right.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

But being forced, I did it anyway. And I'm glad I did because at the end I was able to breathe life in this sweet angel's life, you know, because she came out not breathing. And that scared me the most because he said he would kill me if his baby came out not breathing. So I'm sitting here, I'm trying everything in my power. I flip the baby over, I pat the baby on the back with the. With my hand on her chest on the other side, and then flipped her back over, compressed, and then redid the process, and finally she started breathing. And that was at 3:23, 26 in the morning. Christmas.

[Julian Morgans]

Wow. Why do you remember the time so clearly?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Because that's the time the Christmas music was playing, blaring in my ear. Because he turns it on at 3:25 in the morning, every morning. He did that during the day too. Like he'll turn off the music for a periodic time and then he'll turn it back on. It was like it was on a schedule. And then some days he would just keep the music on.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, I want to Talk more about the. The baby that you've just delivered. But. But I'm curious, like, about this music. Was he trying to muffle screaming?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I think he was trying to muffle the screaming because he kept on coming up telling her to shut up. I was like, you're asking a lady that's giving birth to shut up.

[Julian Morgans]

So the music was happening while just. Only while Amanda was giving birth?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I would say for that period. Yeah, it was on for that. But most of the time, he always had his music blaring to muffle out any of the sounds from inside the house.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. Okay. And so you gave this little baby mouth to mouth resuscitation. You said. You said before that he'd forced five miscarriages on you.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans]

He'd got you pregnant five times and then. And then made you miscarriage by beating you.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yeah. And starving me as well.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, well, that's. I mean, that's absolutely horrible. But I guess in that moment, there was something redeeming or something sort of like you felt like you had ownership over that situation a little bit when you brought this baby back.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I felt like God was bringing a special gift to all three girls because there's no way that this guy can keep a baby in this house for so long and not get caught.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so did you think this was a ticket out?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. And why. I mean, I've got to ask, why was he so determined for you to not have a baby, but he let this woman amend up. Give birth?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Well, I told him I can. Technically, if I were to have a baby, I would have to get a C section.

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Okay.

[Julian Morgans]

And. And that's because, I guess you'd given birth before and you. You sort of knew your body. Okay. Okay, so what? He wanted to avoid that, I guess, because that's surgery in a filthy house. Right. Okay, so tell me about the. These sort of weeks after bringing this baby back from the brink. What was that like?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I would say it was the most best thing that I can do for that little one. I didn't wish any harm for her. I was just hoping that he would literally either take her to the hospital, drop her off. She didn't need to be in that situation. Not at all. But she did get to see some bad things that happened in the house, unfortunately.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, I can imagine. So, look, I mean, I know that you were in this house for a decade. You were there for a long time. And I'm curious about your various escape attempts, because I understand you tried to. You tried to escape many times over, right?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yep.

[Julian Morgans]

Can you just. Just run me through them? Give me a few of your escape stories.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So there was one time when he wasn't paying attention, and I literally tried to jump over the fence. I assuming he heard me, because he ran out, and I kind of ripped the inside of my leg on the fence. And that. That didn't feel too good. No, I was almost there. I just couldn't get over.

[Julian Morgans]

I'm guessing you're weak, right? You hadn't really moved your body in a long time.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

At this point, I was literally very weak. And I hear. I hear it a lot when I wrote my book that people will say that, oh, I would have got over the fence or I would have did this. And I'm like, honey, you do not know. Not unless you actually been through it. And you were as weak as I was with lack of food.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Literally, the possibility of trying to get over there. I'm just proud of myself that I tried to get over the fence. If I would have made it, I would have been even more excited. What was he feeding you at the time? He was just feeding us ramen noodles, hot dogs, and grease.

[Julian Morgans]

Yuck.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

That's disgusting, by the way.

[Julian Morgans]

That's not a good diet.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

And his way of cooking it was with. He tried to make it different every day, but still, it was still disgusting. We didn't get very much good food all the time, especially me. I don't know about the other girls because I wasn't allowed in their rooms at that point of time. Gina was in my room. We were connected together by a chain for the rest of the years that we were in the house.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so Gina. Gina was another woman that he abducted.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Mm.

[Julian Morgans]

And when did gina show up?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

2004. February.

[Julian Morgans]

And can you tell me a little bit about Gina and just sort of run me through when she showed up? Like, how was that?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

She was a sweet child that didn't know very much about what was going on. And I try to help her as much as possible because I know how it felt as a child, and she was a child. She was only, I would say, 13, 13, 14. That she shouldn't even need to be in that situation. None of us deserve to be in that situation. And I told her, like, you're not gonna like everything that he does. He will hurt you if you don't listen. But I'm here if you need me. That's the only thing I can do, is be there for you. There was days that I stepped in, and I took the abuse. I've done it. When I was little for my brothers.

[Julian Morgans]

So I guess you became like a big sister. You were like the sort of the mama bear in this situation because you'd been there the longest.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes. And I tried to help out as much as possible, but we were in a situation that we all couldn't control.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Okay, so there was a time that you and Gina shared a room.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans]

Did you guys talk? Did you sort of share. Share your stories?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

We didn't share our stories, but we did share our family life. She. She had an amazing family that loved her to death, and I just couldn't help listening to the stories, and I said, I'm sorry I don't have very good stories for you, but I can say my family wasn't all that perfect. But I wished my family was her family because they loved her. And one of the things that I hated, another thing that I hated about being there in. In his house of horrors, is that every time their family was on tv, he'll make it his notion to sit there and tell me that nobody's looking for you. Nobody cares about you. Where is your family?

[Julian Morgans]

So he wants to instill hopelessness in you.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans]

That's cruel. I mean, of course. Of course it's cruel. Okay. And tell me about what was the closest that you ever came to escaping?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I would say that was the last time I tried to escape. It was a day like no other, and I almost conquered it. Unfortunately, that day, all of us were together, and we were watching the fireworks, and I don't know what occurred or I don't know why. There was police officers in the next door neighbor's yard, but I was right by the door, and I was like, psst, psst, psst. Trying to get their attention without getting his attention.

[Julian Morgans]

That's hard.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

And the guy looked, and he grabbed me. He grabbed me in the house, and he says, jocelyn, that's the daughter. He said, jocelyn, get in the house. And that's when we all had to go back upstairs. That was my pivotal moment, where I wish the officer would have turned around and looked right at me.

[Julian Morgans]

You just had such a series of, like, almost nearly got out, like bad luck.

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[Julian Morgans]

How are you feeling at this point? Because you. You escaped. You finally got out in 2013. Right. So you were in there for 11 years?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes. Towards the end of the 11 years, I. I would say it was maybe a year before the 11th year. I almost commit suicide in his house. I tied it. I tied something around my neck, and I tried to commit suicide because I didn't think I was ever going to get out of the house at that point. Everything that I've tried, it didn't work. It was failed attempts after failed attempts. And luckily, I would say, this is God's work, not mine, because I pulled it. I went off the chair. I should have been not here. But for some odd reason, God broke the rope, and I'm still here. And then there was another time where I was allergic to something, and I told the guy that I can't eat that or I'll die. So he shoves it down my throat, and I choke on what it was, and it went down because I swallowed it. And shortly after that, I started looking like a puffy little blowfish. And he kept on giving me cough syrup after cough syrup after cough syrup. And I kept on falling in attic, you know, in and out of consciousness and couldn't breathe very well. And I had literally suffered for, I would say, two, two to three weeks. I don't know how, but I end up passing out, seeing a big bright light, and then back in the room again, like, what happened here? And I felt like that God was telling me that it's not your time to go.

[Julian Morgans]

How did you feel about being back?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I didn't want to be back, but I feel that God had a plan. I didn't know what it was, but I felt God had a plan.

[Julian Morgans]

And so how did this ordeal finally end?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Well, he left the door unlocked. He left Amanda's door unlocked. And at that moment, we heard some commotion. We didn't think nothing of it because, you know, that's the child running up and down the stairs playing, you know, being a goofy little goober. And next thing we know, the little girl comes up, hey, Daddy's gone. Daddy's gone. And she was like, are you sure? Are you sure he's gone? And that's all I heard. And then she went downstairs with her. I thought it was because he, you know, called her down there.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, okay, so let me just untangle this a little bit. So the. So the little girl is the daughter of Amanda Berry. Okay. Who is now, what, like sort of seven or eight?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yep.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. Wow. She's lived her whole life in this house as well, and. And she comes up to say that Daddy's gone, meaning Ariel Castro. Where did he go?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Supposedly by the daughter. He went to McDonald's. Not quite sure if that was true or not. But shortly after that, we heard a different type of commotion. So I'm assuming there was fighting or something downstairs, because there was a lot of Loud noise. So I turn up the radio, because at this point, we had a radio and a very tiny TV to watch and listen to. And I didn't want to hear that because I. I heard enough abuse, you know, So I didn't really want to hear any more abuse. So I turned it up. Didn't really think anything of it. Then next thing I know, I hear another voice saying, police, police. And I didn't really go out there at this point, because this could have been him playing tricks, because he likes to play tricks on you and, you know, pretend that he's leaving and still there. So as. As I'm listening to this, I didn't realize my door was unlocked as well. So I end up opening my door. I pushed it open, I peeked out, and I said, amanda, are you okay? Are you okay? Didn't hear nothing. Didn't hear nothing. Then I heard crash, crash, boom. And then I heard police, Police again. And at this point, I'm like, he could say that this could be just him. So I'm just sitting there. I'm just trying to, you know, gather my thoughts. And I said. I was like, gina, hide over there. And I'm gonna go out there, and I'm gonna see what's going on. So I went out, I seen somebody, pulled the covers back. I ran back into the door at this point, and then I heard police, police again. I walked back out the door. I seen a figure, and then I seen a shiny badge. And then they said, we found them. We found them. And I ran straight up in their arms and said, don't let me go. Please don't let me go. At that moment, I was like, wow. I had to pinch myself to see if it was really real, that this was really happening, that we were really going home. And as soon as they put me down for just a second, I said, don't go in there yet. Because she wasn't fully dressed. She was in a T shirt and underwear. So I wanted to make sure she was fully clothed so she didn't feel weird. So I go in there, and it's like, gina, guess what? We're going home. We're going home. And she's like, are you serious? I was like, yes. And I said, come on in. And she just, like, she bursted into tears.

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Wow.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

And as we were walking down the stairs, our hearts are beating fast. The adrenaline is rushing in our bodies. I just fell to the ground. I fell to the ground. I didn't care how dirty the ground was. I kissed the ground and said, thank God.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Thank God I am out of this house. And then as we were all hauled off in the same ambulance, all of us reach out our hands and said, we're finally free now.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, God. That must have been just the most incredible feeling.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Oh, my gosh. And at that point, I didn't really know exactly what was going on with me because I knew I was very sick to begin with. I didn't know exactly what was going on until I got to the hospital. So they did a series of tests on me, and I found out that I had what they call C. Diff, a bacterial infection that was tearing away at my. My stomach lining and different parts of my stomach. And I couldn't hold anything down. I couldn't eat anything. And then they told me I only had two to three days to live.

[Julian Morgans]

So getting out just happened to coincide with a point where your body was pretty much shutting down anyway.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans]

And this bacterial infection, I'm guessing this was like just the effect of having just the worst diet for 11 years.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Not only that, it was the uncleanliness of his home.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

And then I would say, the very next day, the doctor comes in my room and says, hey, how are you feeling? We're gonna try to make you as comfortable as possible. And I said, I looked at him, I was like, honey, I am not gonna die today, I'm not gonna die tomorrow, because God did not rescue me to suffer like this. And the guy just looked at me and was like, you do realize what you have? I was like, I know. But I also have faith. And I'm here still.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, we're going to take a quick ad break, but stick around because we'll be back with more what it was like.

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[Julian Morgans]

So how did they treat you?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So they gave me a lot of different antibiotics, and eventually one of the antibiotics actually started working.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so they just threw everything they had at you?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes, basically.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Right. So what. What had happened? So Ariel just left the house, left the doors open, and then Amanda ran out and went to the police and then returned with the police. And they released you and Gina?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Mm, that's exactly what happened.

[Julian Morgans]

And were you reunited with Amanda and Gina?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

No, unfortunately, we didn't really get to see each other until we were on the news. We really got separated after we were in the hospital. They had their families, and I didn't have really anybody there.

[Julian Morgans]

Your parents didn't come and visit you?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

No.

[Julian Morgans]

No. Why not?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I don't know.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. I'm sorry, Lily.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I asked myself the same question.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, what was the response from friends, from other family, from the world?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Oh, my gosh.

[Julian Morgans]

What happened?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

All the outpouring love and support, Support that everyone has shown me over the course of the years was amazing. If I can literally hand write all the letters and draw them all pictures and paintings, I would.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Because their love and support helped us build the life, rebuild our life.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. And I mean, this.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

This case, I couldn't. And I couldn't think of anything more to say than to say thank you a million.

[Julian Morgans]

And this case got a lot of media attention too. Right. Like, you guys were all over the news for months.

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Did.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

It was kind of. I would say it was an emotional roller coaster. I think the media was a little bit too overbearing, so to speak. They wanted to know more about the story, and they forgot to have empathy for the people that this was happening to. And I would say the next time something like this happens, to try to be a little bit kind than cruel. And I know they don't mean it because they were just trying to put a story out there. They was trying to show, you know, everyone that we survived and everything, but they forgot the emotional part about it. And sometimes it's best to wait and let someone heal first and then let them be at their best so they can help the others out there that are going through similar situations.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure that that's a pretty common experience for. For all sorts of survivors, that they just become news fodder.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yeah. Some is some. Some is easy, you know, like some of the news Media were very kind, but then there was also the cruel ones that really didn't understand the concept of need. Need time.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, how did the state support you? I mean, did you. I like to think here's. Here's my naive understanding of the world. The. That when you survive 11 years chained in some guy's house, the state's just like, hey, Lily, here's a million dollars. We're so sorry this happened. Please go and live your life as happily as possible from now on.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I would say I wish that was the case.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Like, what does happen?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I do. I was. I would say we did get something, but it was only donations from a lot of different people out there, which I appreciate every donation that people has gave. But we also got to realize there was four people involved and the money had to be split. So as. And then there's taxes.

[Julian Morgans]

Wait, you got taxed on these donations? That is outrageous.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

So a lot of people don't realize, like, when you go through all these things, it. You think you got everything for free, But. No, but I'm glad. And I'm just astounded by everyone that really donated because we need more people like that in the world. Kind hearted, blissful people that understand when people are at their worst.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, health wise, I'm guessing you were in and out of hospital for a while. Like. Like, how long would you say that. The healing process.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Oh, my goodness. I was in and out of the hospital for, like, I would say three to four months.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Tops. I was in hospice for a year.

[Julian Morgans]

Jeez. Wow. And. And your son, because you've. You've been away for over a decade, and so your little boy, I guess, is a teenager now and 26. Like, wait, he's 26 right now? Okay, but when you got out. He was a teenager.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I had him when I was a teenager.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so tell me about getting reunited with your son.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Unfortunately, I never got the chance to be reunited. I still have high hopes that one day he'll be listening and his foster adoptive parents or the people that have him right now would, you know, open up their hearts and say, hey, go ahead and, you know, reconnect with your mom.

[Julian Morgans]

Wait, hold on. So you. So he was adopted, but the adoptive parents were sort of blocking you? Like, what's the story there?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Unfortunately, they thought it would be best for me not to connect with him because of the media outlets and everything. They thought that it would be horrible for me to connect with him because of that reason. And I said what happened to me shouldn't be the reasons why I can't see my son.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, God, Lily, your story is so full of awful people. They are making the wrong choice. You should see your son.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes. And I'm hoping and praying that one day God will bless me with that chance.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Seeing sense. Because of what happened to me, I am unable to have kids of my own. And that's because of the years of abuse and things that, you know, happened in a house and the barbell that he hit me with. So amongst all the things that happen to me in the world, I am blind in one eye because of him. I'm also deaf in one ear because of him. And I also cannot have children because of him.

[Julian Morgans]

And so what happened to him?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Well, he committed suicide in prison.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. Yeah. He was given a life sentence plus, what, a hundred years or something?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans]

And how did you feel the day that you heard that he'd died?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I didn't have any feelings. The only thing I can say is that his family didn't have to go through what they went through if he wouldn't have made bad decisions.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty empathetic way of looking at it.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

In order to heal myself, I had to forgive. I will never forget what happened to me. I would never condone anybody to ever go through or be put through what I've went through. But I wanted to break the emotional chain of a devil.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Because I didn't want the devil to win.

[Julian Morgans]

Did you grow up with Christianity in your life, or did you just discover some faith during this process?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

During this process, I did discover my faith because when I was younger, I was told that God wasn't real. God was never a part of my life. So I literally had to reteach myself everything that was taught to me because I was taught lies.

[Julian Morgans]

Are you still connected with the. The other two women from the house? Do you guys catch up?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Unfortunately, no. We all went our different ways. We are all living different lives. I'm just glad that they are doing good and they're out there doing their thing. And I love seeing them Amanda on the news, and I love seeing Gina with her Cleveland missing. So it's really good.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And is that simply because. I mean, I'm curious, because I would have thought if you lived through something like this with someone else, I would have thought that it would have brought you closer.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

What I've learned over the course of the years, because I asked myself the same question, that maybe we should have been closer. But I Felt because of what we went through, maybe it was harder to face each other.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, that makes sense. And so you're still telling your story all these years later?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes.

[Julian Morgans]

And thank you. You know, thanks for doing that.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I feel that telling my story helps others that are going through similar situations know that they are the hero of their own story and they are stronger than what they think they are. And to never give up on yourself.

[Julian Morgans]

That's great. I really like that.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I tell people life is too short to be mad and upset at the world. And because life is too short, we should count our blessings each and every day and take the blessings that God put forth for us. See, God may not have gave me a second chance to have children, but I do have children. I am a mom. I have my dogs. I have my beautiful fur babies, my skelly babies, and I love them to death. And a lot of people don't look at life in a different light. They choose to look at life in a darkness. I choose to look at the brighter side of life and try not to be so angry. Because there was a point in time where I was. I was angry at everything and anything. And I think I had every right to be. You have to be able to feel your emotions and let them out and be able to know that it's okay.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

You also have to be able to make mistakes and learn from them and know that it's okay to make mistakes. When I was a child, I was taught you had to be perfect in every way. I was hit in the head with sticks, like big sticks, because I wrote wrong or I didn't write it right, or I didn't say that word right or I didn't draw right. Do it again. Do it again. So the beautiful person that you see in front of you is because I taught myself how to live life my way and how to flourish no matter what's going on in my life. I can say from a single doubt in my mind there are going to. People be people out there that criticize you, talk bad about you, make you feel like crap. And you know what I tell myself? They're miserable in their own life, and they have nothing better to do than to pick on somebody like me. And you know what they can do to herself? Kick rocks.

[Julian Morgans]

Yes. Lily. Yes. You are a beautiful person. You're so right.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Thank you.

[Julian Morgans]

You're so right. And you said at the start of this interview that you're in a good place right now. What. What can you tell me about your life at the moment?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Oh, my Gosh. Well, I'm married. I'm married to an amazing man that loves me and my animals.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, that's great.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

And he is just the, you know, cream of the crop. I wouldn't change him for anything in the world. He just is so amazing. He came at the point, a difficult point in my life. And what really opened my heart to him is that he said to me, I want to know you for who you are today, not what happened to you in the past. And that made my heart melt because not a lot of people were in my life for the good reasons. A lot of people were in my life for bad reasons.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah. Did you kind of develop, like, some people who were hanging around you because you'd been on the news a lot?

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Yes. I felt like the only reason why they wanted to be my friend is to take me to parties, show me off like a trophy, and then when I get there, thousands of people will take pictures of me with no respect at all.

[Julian Morgans]

That's so weird.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Now I don't mind taking pictures. Please ask.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

I don't mind giving you a hug. Please ask.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah. And, Lily, how can. How can people support you? You know, I know that it sounds like a little bit of love can go a long way at the moment.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Well, I would say if people go to my Facebook, it's Lilian Lee. They can see everything about my life today. I don't go by Michelle Knight anymore. I prefer to be called Lily for short. And I do paintings. I do inspirational paintings. I also do special requests for people that animals had passed away. I do paintings, drawings. I also do speaking engagements. Anyone can get in contact with me through my Facebook.

[Julian Morgans]

Great. We're gonna put your Facebook details in the show notes as well.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Awesome.

[Julian Morgans]

Lily, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your story, for just being this big, golden character in so many people's lives. And, yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure.

[Lily Rose Lee (Michelle Knight)]

Thank you.

[Julian Morgans]

Thanks for listening today. I know that one wasn't easy to sit through. I think Lily deserves our support, so I'm going to put her Facebook details in the show notes. Click on the blurb section on the podcast and you'll see her Facebook details there. You can click on it and you should commission her to do a drawing for you of your pet, or you could get her to talk at some event. She's a beautiful soul and she deserves a house support. What It Was like is produced by Rachel Tuffrey. This episode was edited by Ellie Dickey, who also does our research Our cover art is by Rich Akers, our theme music was produced by Jimmy Saunders, and this whole thing has been a super real production.

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