Julian Morgans (3:09)

Hey, I'm Julian Morgans, and you're listening to what It Was like, the show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. Hey, welcome back. So last week's story was a mystery. And this week's story, well, it's a mystery as well. I'm really into mysteries at the moment. I don't know why. But this week's story started with this thought. I was thinking about people who commit a crime and then disappear. And particularly I was thinking about the guys who robbed the Louvre. You know, they came in, they stole all those jewels, and then they tried to just disappear. Only one by one, they're being rounded up and arrested. So it hasn't worked. And that seems to be the way that it usually goes. You know, someone tries to fake their own death, they usually get found pretty fast. Or if they try to go and, you know, just live in the woods or whatever, they get found pretty fast, they get arrested. And for some reason, I always find that kind of embarrassing. I'm always like, come on, couldn't you have done a better job of disappearing? So I found myself wondering, how often do people successfully disappear? How often do people pull off a huge crime and then they're never seen ever again? And that question led me to the case that. That we're covering today, because this is one of the longest running fugitive cases in U.S. history. And to this day, police have no idea where the man is. So the man in question, his name is Robert William Fisher. And I might have misled you by this sort of talk about, like, jewelry heists and stuff, because to be honest, this. This crime today is. It's not cute. You know, this guy, he's a monster. So heads up. This story has some descriptions of pretty horrendous flavor. Family violence. Because Fisher is wanted for allegedly murdering his family and blowing up their family home in Scottsdale, Arizona. When police arrived at the house fire on April 10, 2001, they found Fisher's wife and their two kids inside. All three of them had had their throats slit, and his wife had also been shot in the back of the head. And the investigation pretty quickly focused on Robert Fisher, who had a history of being a controlling and aggressive husband. And that's where my guest comes in today. I'm speaking with Detective Hugh Lockerbie, who is this Scottsdale detective who was assigned to the case. Hugh was there in the morning that the house burned. And he's followed this investigation ever since. And as you'll hear, it's taken a real toll on him. I think every detective that I speak to on this show seems to have this one case that they can't shake. You know, they'll talk about staying awake at night, that there's this one case, this missing person or this, you know, murdered child, or there's something that just sticks in their. And for Hugh, this is absolutely this case. And he's really open, he's really emotional. And as you'll hear today, he still believes that Robert Fisher is alive and he's hiding somewhere. And that's interesting, right? Hugh is suggesting that this man has committed this crazy, horrible big crime and he's successfully escaped and he's alive and he's hiding and he's evaded authorities for 25 years. But the big question is, how has he done that and where is he? And therein lies the mystery. And before we get into the story, just a quick note for subscribers. We've got a great bonus episode this week waiting for you right now. Since we're deep into mysteries at the moment, this week's subscriber only episode looks at one of the biggest of all of them and it's the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370. That's for subscribers. But anyway, on with the show. This one is for all of you. Here is my conversation with Detective Hugh Lockerbie. Hey, Hugh, welcome to the show.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (7:08)

Thank you, Julian. I appreciate it.

Julian Morgans (7:10)

I appreciate it. Thanks for making your way over to a studio today. I appreciate it. So let's start with this case. Can you take me to 2001? How did that day start for you?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (7:23)

Well, in 2001 I was a patrol officer for Scottsdale PD. I was working that night. This whole incident, this whole reason why we're talking today involving Robert Fisher started It was around 10 o' clock that night. He got into a family fight. A disturbance of a domestic violence situation with his wife. There was reported arguing by the neighbors, but they never called the police. The next day I came back to work and was just another normal day. Sat down in briefing, got our marching orders from our sergeant at the time, like this is what's going on. And one of the things is like they had a house fire in beat three and a couple bodies were recovered. And Hugh, it's your beat. Go down there and provide scene security, relieve the day shift officer. So that's what I did.

Julian Morgans (8:27)

Okay, so when you rolled up at this house in your car. What was the first thing that you saw? Can you describe the scene?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (8:34)

A huge amount of people kind of milling around the area. The. The home is situated at the end of a cul de sac, and Fisher's house was kind of on the northeast corner of that cul de sac right at the end. And there were fire trucks everywhere, water rolling down the street. Still a humongous van that the. That was called the command van from the police department, where detectives were kind of coming in and out of crime scene tape at the end of the house. The house is in rubble. It's. I wouldn't say smoldering, but there's definitely. You could tell that there was a fire there. The house is gone, practically. There's a truck in the carport that's severely burned. Yeah. To set the stage. It was kind of different, you know, not something that you see every day.

Julian Morgans (9:33)

What was different about it? Just. I mean, just the fact that it was a residential house.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (9:37)

The. The smell, the burnt. You know, just you could smell a home being on fire. It was different because of the fact that you just knew that there were people on the inside. So there were three bodies in the home, three individual beds, individual rooms. There was a lot of rubble from the fire department putting out the fire. The house exploded from a gas leak, an intentional gas leak. And it just exploded. Flames coming out of the. Out of the gas line. So there was a lot of damage. But the body of each of the individuals were pretty severely burned. But you could still make out that there were humans. The detectives could tell right away that obviously these are small children. They were 8 and 10, I want to say. And then a larger, you know, a human obviously learning later to be Mary Fisher. But when the medical examiner got there, they have to put them in body bags, so they flip them over. And the mattresses that they were laying on were soaked in blood, a red stain. So once they are, the three bodies are now taken down to the medical examiner's office for the autopsy. That's when they. They learned that the. The necks of the three individuals were cut very deep. I mean, very deep in the neck. And then the female, the older female had a gunshot wound to the back of her head.

Julian Morgans (11:20)

God. So this must have stood out to you as like, oh, this is going to be a big case. Was that kind of the feeling like this is really unusual?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (11:29)

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've had murders in Scottsdale. They've occurred quite often, but to my knowledge, we never had one involving Kids like this. This is kind of like the first time you kind of see in our neighborhood, in our community, where kids were taken out by a loved one, a domestic violence partner, a father. So it was rough. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my partner, who was the lead detective at the time, he's no longer with us. He passed away quite a few years ago. But I remember him telling me, like, his. The drive down from. From the crime scene to the medical examiner's office, he just broke down, started crying. He just, you know, it was so traumatic for them, and it just rocked the community. Just like, how could this happen, you know, to kids? And why did it happen? Yeah, it. It. There were so many questions that were just unanswered at the beginning, and then it was just. It's. It was chaos, you know?

Julian Morgans (12:48)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And. And the dad immediately became suspect number one. So this is Robert Fisher. Can you tell me about why you weren't looking at other people, why you just zeroed in on the dad?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (13:01)

Well, initially, he. He wasn't in the home. Now, the body of the female that we learned to be find out to be his wife, we didn't know who it belonged to. So we're looking for Robert. Is he at work? Where did he go? You know, his. That truck that I talked about at the beginning under the carport belonged to him. And the neighbors all said, well, yeah, that's the truck that Robert drives all the time. But Mary's forerunner is gone, and she always drives that. So initially there was this. Well, does he even know what happened? You know, I think in the back of the mind, the detectives were kind of like their spidey senses went up in there. We're like, yeah, he's got some answering to do. Let's try to see what he has to say. But then we're. We're, you know, we're pulling credit card transactions. We're looking at money right away, trying to track him up, because we know that we have a person gone and strongly felt that it was Robert, but maybe he's going to turn himself in or maybe he, you know, who knows where he's at? So we got to find him. That was the main objective. We need to find out where Robert's at. And initially, Mary's dad was very supportive of Robert and said he would never do anything like this. He's not a suspect. You guys are barking up the wrong tree. My Robert would never do something like that. So it took some. I wouldn't say convincing, but some laying out of the evidence to him over time to say he did this and we need to find him. So once one of the things that we looked at right away was his credit card transactions and we found the, the ATM photo of him right after the non reported domestic violence call of him withdrawing $260 from an ATM machine right down the street from their house at around 10:30 at night. And that's the last known photo of him. He's got the Raiders ball cap on, he's got the Casey shirt on, or RC shirt on, I should say. And he's got Mary's forerunner in the background of the ATM photo of him walking up, withdrawing the money, getting into the car and then driving away. And that's it. Never to be seen again.

Julian Morgans (15:40)

That's bizarre, isn't it? It's so strange. Okay, so just so I'm clear on the chronology here is, is so there's some neighbors over here, a domestic fight happening in this house about 10pm Then Robert goes off, withdraws some cash for an ATM and then yes, not long after that the house explodes. Is that, is that the way things panned out?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (16:02)

Yeah, about. So after the ATM withdrawed around 10:30 at night, the house explodes about at 8 in the morning. So there's about an 8 to 10 hour. Geez, do my math now. Yeah, about an 8, 8 hour ish delay. And then all of a sudden this house explodes. And let me also preface it too. Before he withdrew that money and before that fight happened earlier in the evening, he took his daughter to a national honor society, kind of like luncheon or something where she was awarded this from her school. But he also bought extra oil and water purification tablets from kind of an outdoor store right down the street too. So this happened just prior to, to him coming home. And then him and his, him and Mary got into this fight over something, we don't know what. The neighbors just reported it being arguing, fighting very loudly, I can surmise and say that she was probably leaving him and definitely wasn't over financial issues. They had a lot of money saved up. They weren't wealthy, but they, but they were very frugal. And yeah, Robert just disappeared. Gone, kills the family. Our forensic analysis told us that. And I don't mean to fast forward and jump ahead, but it helps kind of lay the audience. Their picture is he potentially dumped some sort of a liquid down the hallway around the beds, removed the cap of the gas line, turned the gas on, put probably a candle in the middle of the hallway, threw some wrapped up batteries in the, in the Garbage can of his daughter's room. Now, the timeline as to did he kill the family first and did do this, or. I would imagine. So he didn't get caught. He slit the throats of his son and his daughter, and then he went into his wife's room, slit her throat, and shot her in the back of the head. The coup de gras. Shot and then rigged the house to explode. Closes the front door, gets into her car, drives off. And now the house just sits there and just builds with accelerant and. And. And the fumes of that gas over time, and then it just exploded. It's like a pressure cooker.

Julian Morgans (18:57)

Yeah. God, that is so cold. To be able to do that to your own family and then drive off into the sunset.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (19:03)

Yeah. Yeah.

Julian Morgans (19:05)

Okay.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (19:05)

Like, nothing.

Julian Morgans (19:06)

So what's.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (19:07)

Yeah.

Julian Morgans (19:08)

What. What was your. What was your first step To. To try to find Robert Fisher.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (19:14)

Using the media to reach out to him, trying to call him, track him down by the use of his credit card or whatever and that. And then kind of a statewide all points bulletin. APB bullet. Like, be on the lookout for this guy. We need to talk to him. And sure enough, 10 days after the murder, we get this one call that comes in from some people from Mesa, Arizona, which is next to Scottsdale. It's a suburb. And they call in and say, hey, we got a call from a friend of ours who's camping up in Northern Arizona outside of a town called Young. And he saw that Forerunner in the woods. And so we thought, well, that's somewhere where Robert would like to go. He likes to hunt. He likes to fish. And so we sent helicopters up there and circled the area, and sure enough, there's the Forerunner. Well, now it's all hands on deck. We got a hold of the sheriff's department up there, and we sent our SWAT team up there and treated it like he's alive and he's somewhere hiding in the cave or hiding in the mountain up there. And we searched for him for the next few days. We found the car. We found his dog that he took with him.

Julian Morgans (20:56)

Blue Dog was alive.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (20:57)

The top dog was alive. It had some porcupine needles and snows. It was circling the. The car. And we searched caves. We threw smoke grenades into the caves to try to flush him out, tried to track him using professional trackers, and nothing. Nothing at all.

Julian Morgans (21:25)

Wow, that seems. I mean, it seems unusual to me. I'm not in law enforcement, but it seems to me that you'd have found some footprints going in some sort of direction or you'd have found it as a clothing.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (21:35)

Very heavily treed, a lot of pine needles on the ground, so it's not like it's muddy at all. The hat that he was wearing, that seen in the ATM photo on the seat of the car, the coffee cup right there. And that's it.

Julian Morgans (21:54)

Wow. Okay, so to your way of thinking, what are the options here? What's happened?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (21:58)

Somebody helped him. Somebody helped him get out. Someone ironically or unknowingly picked him up, gave him a ride. He stashed a vehicle or some sort of ATV up there and that was his exit plan and he's successful with it.

Julian Morgans (22:25)

Okay, so right now, do you think he's alive or dead?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (22:30)

There's not a shred of doubt in my mind that he is alive right now. He might even be listening to this podcast. I would ask him to turn himself in. Okay, you've, you've, you've done your time, you've had your, your time away, but now it's time to come and answer some questions and I'm available talk to them.

Julian Morgans (22:54)

Hey, we're going to take a quick ad break, but stick around because we'll be back with more what it was like.

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Julian Morgans (25:12)

I mean, that's interesting. Assuming he was listening to this podcast, I mean, what would, what would be a motivation for him to get in touch with you?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (25:23)

Too much time has passed and it's time for him to talk to us about why he had to do this to his children to do the right thing. Yeah, explain why there's a lot of hurt. There's still kids that are now adults that lost their friend, that lost their churchmate. Family members. His family wants to just have some answers as to what happened that night that would cause you to create such a violent act and then cover it up, you know? Yeah, it's really hard to swallow and really wrap your head around the evil it really is. Julian, you just cannot, you just, it's just so hard to explain and just wrap your head around why someone would be so evil and what would motivate somebody to take out their flesh and blood the way that he did. It's not like he shot them, which is still extremely bad and evil, but to slit their throats in the manner that he did and then to his wife. I mean, I've been a homicide detective for. I was a homicide detective for 14 years and I've seen it all, Julian. I have. I have seen every type of death you could possibly imagine. And I'm not talking just a handful, like hundreds of thousands. We get a lot of deaths in Scottsdale, actually, just different types. And I've seen people take out their families too. I mean, I've been on cases where a guy's sitting on death row for killing his family. I have had them where they've of a wife of 30 some years killed her husband and chopped up his body and left it all over Arizona, we have seen so much, but this has got to be just the absolute worst. And I cannot to this day wrap my head as to why. Why would some, what would drive somebody to, to do this? It's not drugs. We have no drug history of Robert, you know, using methamphetamines or cocaine or something like that. Illicit. Maybe he had a substance abuse problem with prescription medication because of his back problems. But that, that shouldn't cost somebody to do this, right? Was it, was it because his wife was leaving him for another man? I mean, we found no evidence of another man in her life. Was it because he was unfaithful? Definitely a possibility. And maybe that's why, you know, there was always this theory with the case that, well, Robert's mom and dad divorced when he was young and he just took it so hard on him. And, and that's what drove him because he couldn't allow his kids, he couldn't allow his kids to live in a divorced family like he did. So therefore it drove him to kill. To kill. Like I, I, I can't accept that. I, I, Some people are just pure evil.

Julian Morgans (28:56)

Yeah.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (28:56)

That's bottom line.

Julian Morgans (28:57)

Yeah. I mean, you must have had some criminal psychologists working on this to try to unpack who this man is. I mean, like, you know, what have you learned? What have you learned about his psychological profile?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (29:09)

It's been a while since I looked at it. We had one really kind of help guide us to talk to him if we did. Like, how do you approach a person like this? Is it two people in the room? Is it a male and a female? You know what, how do we approach this guy to make him feel comfortable? So he's very, what I remember and talk working with the FBI that we brought in to help us is extremely narcissistic, sociopathic, all about himself. And it's true, looking back at the photos of Robert before the family, everything was about Robert. Robert with no shirt on showing how big his muscles are. Robert with the elk head that he killed up hunting in the house as the main part of the living room. I mean, it was kind of like, you know, you have the small living room and it's just ginormous elk. You know, it, it was all about him. That's what the profile is. Yeah.

Julian Morgans (30:21)

For some reason that doesn't surprise me. And I, I understand he was pretty controlling as well. Is there sort of like it wasn't, wasn't the first case that he and his wife had argued?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (30:31)

Nope, not at all. And now we Never had a ton of calls. I mean we've, we've had those cases in the past where like, oh, you know, we've been to this house four or five times and violence just kept getting worse and worse and eventually this happened. This wasn't the case, Robert. With Robert and Mary, we did not have a ton of, you know, we didn't have a ton of calls for service where as a beat officer at the time would have been like, oh, well, all wonder what Robert and Mary are up to now. I mean, what they're fighting about this time. That was never the case. This was just like out of the blue. Like we've had some, you know, we, we had to do a lot of interviews with his neighbors just to get a little bit of a background as to what, what it was like to live next to the Fishers. But it was Robert going fishing on the weekends and hunting and outdoors and working all the time and a very church going family. Well, come to find out after interviewing, getting really deep into the interviews with a lot of the churchgoing members is Robert lived a Jekyll and Hyde life. He didn't go to church like everyone thought he was supposed to. He wasn't that type. That was, it was Mary. Mary and had the church drive, the spiritual background, wanting to raise her kids in a, in a, in a religious settings. Robert wasn't like that. Robert really. So he wasn't, he wasn't the person.

Julian Morgans (32:05)

He was faking it in the sense that he was going to the church, but he was just sort of tuning out or he just wasn't even going to church.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (32:12)

Yeah, he wasn't going to church, but when he was there, it wasn't, he wasn't engaged. He, you know, even in the men's group, like he, he would turn around the conversation onto him like it wasn't, he wasn't there. Like the other people were there to be in charge.

Julian Morgans (32:31)

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I'm thinking from the FBI's perspective, I mean, I guess from, from your perspective on a sort of Scottsdale sort of like local law enforcement level, this case is really unusual. But I'm thinking from a national perspective, you know, across the US Cases where narcissistic, sociopathic men murder their wives are actually fairly commonplace. I'm sure that happens, you know, sadly all the time. But what's really, truly unusual about this case is that he managed to disappear and stay disappeared for as long as he has, despite the fact that you think he's still alive like that is that's Remarkable.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (33:12)

It is. And I. I bang my head at least two to three times a week trying to figure out where did we miss something? What is it that we missed? We had to have missed something, right? We should have caught him by now, Julian. We should have found him by now. Where is it that we messed up? And how did a person assume a new identity without putting any red flags on him, without causing someone to be like, you're a little off, and I'm gonna do some digging into who you are to figure out who you really. None of that happened. And I just sit there and I'm like, how did he escape and get out of the dragnet? You know, he had a 10 day window in front of us, which allowed him a little bit of. Of an opportunity to get out, but how did he do it? And that's where it. That's where a lot of us that are on. Have worked the case or part of it kind of start to go our own different ways as to our theories. There's some out there that think, well, you've never found him, you've never located him, so he must be dead. Right? And I just can't buy that story just because I have no proof of that. I have to believe that he's still alive. I have a duty and an obligation to Mary, Bobby and Brittany to bring justice for their killer, to bring justice to the family of this. We have that. And we can't just shelve it and say, well, he must be passed on. So there's no point in putting any effort into it because he's dead, because we have no evidence to show that he's alive. And that's just not the right way to think about this. We can't allow the community to believe that we'll give up on this. And I just sit back and wonder, how did he. Where did we go. Where did. Where did we go wrong? And perfect storm as to it just. He just got out at the right opportunity. And so the. The conspiracy theorists that know the case very well are like, well, he. He died in a cave. Well, we examined that, we looked into that. The FBI and I met with the caving community. They have never came across anything at all that was remotely Robert Fisher related.

Julian Morgans (35:56)

Okay, and. And you think it's also improbable that he just simply walked off into the bush and. And shot himself and he was, you know, his body was consumed by animals.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (36:07)

We would have found a body. The. The FBI has done a ton of study on that in regards to how far Human remains will be taken. There's so much spotlight on this case that, that we would have been notified that, oh, there's some remains found in that area. You know, just speaking off the cuff, I mean, in 2007, we recovered a bone in Scottsdale that was linked to a 1977 missing person case.

Julian Morgans (36:41)

Really?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (36:42)

30 years later.

Julian Morgans (36:43)

Wow. Okay.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (36:44)

Yeah. So, I mean, that. And. And that stuff happens.

Julian Morgans (36:49)

Yeah, yeah.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (36:50)

So it. So I. When I say that we've done. Done our due diligence to make sure that, that if, you know, from a forensic standpoint to a notification standpoint, that unidentified bodies, teeth, skulls, all that stuff would have been. We would have been notified of that.

Julian Morgans (37:13)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, I guess it's been almost 25 years since he disappeared. In that period, have you had sightings? You know, like, what. What has been the closest moment you've felt like you've had to a resolution?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (37:29)

Wow. Well, we've had a ton of sightings. You know, obviously, Arizona's proximity to the Mexico border really, really kind of helped generate a lot of focus. Like, oh, he. He went off into the wild west of Mexico and he. He disappeared in Mexico. So we had that. We. We've had sightings in Mexico. We've had sightings in England. We've had sightings in Guatemala, Honduras, Canada. In 2004, we had this person that we got notified by the RCMP of the Royal Canadian Police in Canada, notified us of an individual that they had in their custody. That was Robert Fisher. So they sent us the photos and I'll be damned. It was close. He had a scarring on his back where Fisher had a surgery on his back. He had some marks on his ankles. Like, consistent, almost like burn marks. He looked just like him. He wasn't giving his name and fingerprints said it wasn't him. Wow. And so there's always been that theory while did he fake his fingerprints or do something like you'd see in on movies and stuff that never happened. That wasn't him. Once you looked at it more and more closely, it wasn't him. We've had a. A sighting in Mexico that I've talked about in the past where somebody saw and on the FBI's website of Fisher and they were partying in this part of Mexico and it was close. Like, it was really close. And I thought, wow. But it just seemed odd that he would put himself out there to take a photo with some. Some girls that he really didn't know that he just met. And we tracked him down and it wasn't him. Yeah, we've had a lot of sight. I bet you if you counted them up, I mean, well over 15, 20,000 tips we've received on him. It's just, wow. A lot.

Julian Morgans (39:50)

That's huge. That's. I mean, like, from your perspective, that's frustrating because I imagine every time you're kind of like, oh, here we go. Is this it? And then. No.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (40:01)

Yeah, it's like that constant roller coaster. Yeah, I've had them. I've had a police agency call me. A couple of them did different times, but one called me and said, we have him in custody. We're bringing him to our jail. Come and come. And we're just gonna. We. We. We know for a fact it's him. And so we've had the county attorney ready to go, like, okay, we're. We're ready to. To start the legal process now with all this. And they're on standby, and I'm driving to this police station in Arizona only to find out it wasn't him. Yeah, we've had him on the, The. The. The. The Mexico San Diego border where they said this guy claiming to be Fisher was stopped by border patrol and was arrested. It wasn't him. I mean, and so, I mean, yeah, this constant, you know, tug and pull of your feelings in your heart, like, oh, my God, we finally got him. Yeah, it's not him. So.

Julian Morgans (41:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (41:11)

That's frustrating.

Julian Morgans (41:13)

So when. When you close your eyes and, you know, you're about to go to sleep at night, and you sort of just played all this out in your mind, I mean, I'm sure you just sort of, you know, percolate on it regularly. You know, what, what is the timeline that comes to you? What do you see? You know, he goes and parks his wife's car. And then what do you imagine?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (41:32)

Well, I set the setting. It's in the woods. Pine trees everywhere. It's cold, it's. It may even be snowing a little bit. He's got the dog running around. Which is another theory, Julian, as to why I believe someone gave him a ride or he had a way out is because the dog would have followed him.

Julian Morgans (41:57)

Yeah, right.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (41:58)

I don't care how disciplined you can have your dog. You could run it through the training. The best trained dog in the world. You're not going to be able to have it sit there and you. To just walk down this gravel road because it's in the woods and the dog is eventually not going to come after you, follow you. So he had to have gotten out that way. So I set the scene like that. And I imagine him with, like, a backpack, some jeans or some army fatigues or something, a flannel shirt, just bebopping his way down the dirt road, and somebody gave him a ride or he had some sort of alternative vehicle, and he's able to just kind of disappear into that, into the wilderness and just vanish. Yeah. And. And that's where it stops, you know, and on the.

Julian Morgans (43:09)

For me, and on the balance of probabilities. Do you think he's still in the U.S. i mean, did he have a passport? Did he have much of a history of travel?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (43:16)

He might have had a passport. He didn't travel. He wasn't like, he was in the U.S. navy. Yeah. Background real quick. Yep. Fisher was in the Navy in the early 80s. He tried to be a Navy. Sealed, washed out, failed at that. He was a firefighter in California, in Southern California. Got injured there. I don't think he traveled, like, extensively. So to answer your question, yes, I. I believe he's in the United States or in Canada.

Julian Morgans (43:50)

Okay.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (43:51)

And why I believe that is he's assimilated himself into a community where he can keep such a low profile that. No, they just know him as. You name the name. His name is Tom. That's just Tom. He's lived here for years. Yeah. And no one really knows his back or story. He. Hell, he might have even remarried and had kids for all we know, and just started a new life, which. Shame on him for giving, being allowed that opportunity. But, yeah, I think he. I think he could be in somewhere like Colorado, Idaho, somewhere where it's. He's going to want to hunt still. He still want to want to fish. He still wanted to be outdoors. And that was, you know, kind of our focus as to if someone's like this, that, you know, dated, married, you name it, friends with neighbor, that it's got a narcissistic personality that you just don't. Kind of acts weird or odd or, you know, has that type of background that Fisher that we've kind of profiled over the years. Call the FBI.

Julian Morgans (45:08)

Yeah.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (45:09)

Rewards still out there.

Julian Morgans (45:11)

How much is the reward?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (45:14)

Gosh, I want to say if it's over a hundred thousand dollars, I. I just can't remember off the top of my head.

Julian Morgans (45:19)

That's all right. That's okay. Do rewards go up with inflation?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (45:25)

Hopefully.

Julian Morgans (45:27)

That'D be good because it's, you know, it's been almost 25 years. It'd be a pretty tasty reward by now.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (45:32)

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Julian Morgans (45:34)

Yeah. Okay. I mean, when you look across, you know, the sort of the landscape of cases that you've worked on and cases that you've heard about, is this one of the very few sort of most wanted cases where nothing has ever popped up ever again? You've never found a body. You've never, you know, there's never been any sort of bank account activity. Is this a. Is this an anomalous for those reasons?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (45:58)

Yes, absolutely, it is. I. It's the only one that's gotten away from us. It's like this nagging black cloud that's kind of hovered over us. We just have never been able to get finality. And we've got no other person like this that's gotten away, that's committed a murder in general. We've had. We've got unsolved cases, but nothing like this. We've got, you know, organized crime figures in the United States that mafia type or cartel related that have killed lots of people. Yes, absolutely. This is just one of those that just has always nagged at us, and we just don't know what happened and.

Julian Morgans (46:46)

Why at the office. Does this case come up in conversation often or is it sort of. Yeah.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (46:55)

Oh, yeah. Weekly. Daily, yeah.

Julian Morgans (46:59)

Really?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (47:00)

You know. Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Julian Morgans (47:04)

Is that a desire for justice or is there a sort of element of like. For you personally, is there an element of not wanting to get beaten or almost like competitiveness?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (47:14)

I've taken my lumps over the years, and I don't think it's really competitive. It's more about this pursuit, this oath of honor, of being a homicide detective, of being in this type of work, of that drive, of ensuring that victims have a voice. And that's the way I approach it. And that's. That's why I won't let it go. It's. It's not about me anymore. And it's never been about me. Like, I'm. I'm. I. I don't want to sit here and do an interview with Julian from Australia over this. Yes, you do. I mean, I. I do it because I want to make sure that the family, Bobby and Brittany know that I am not giving up. Yeah, we're not giving up. We, as the Scottsdale police, are not going to give up on them. And I want them to know that I want their families to. To know that we still think about them every single day and that we will not just because their Deaths are now 24 years old, that we have forgotten about them, because we have a duty and a responsibility to cross Every T dot, every. I ensure that this case is. No matter what type of case it is, whether it's a aggravated assault case, whether it's a homicide case, it doesn't matter. We are going to ensure that we will not forget about them.

Julian Morgans (48:49)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, let's unpack that a little further. I mean, what would you say that you've personally learned from this case?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (49:00)

Pretty simple. And it goes like this. Three strikes and you're not out. There's always one more thing you can do. And you have to approach cases like that, life like that. You have to approach what you do in, in your work or personal life or your loved one's family, whatever it is. But especially with this case, that taught me that never give up. But just because you got like three strikes, you're not out, there's always, always one more thing you could do. Because I found that in this case, I thought we would. We ran into dead ends and we ran into things early on in the case where it was like, well, hasn't shown up yet, move on to the next one. And a lot of times there was times where, you know, it was kind of, we hit that rock in the road and then all of a sudden you're looking at something and it might have been the 20th time you've looked at that case or that photograph or read something. You're like, holy shit, I never saw this before. Why didn't I see this before? There's a, there's a famous saying I learned from a retired Los Angeles Sheriff's Department detective at a conference. And he, he had done some very high profile cases. And I, I've always kind of listen to his, what he has to say. And he said, for the want of a nail, the kingdom was lost. It's an old Ben Franklin saying. And what he was getting at is the devil's in the details. And that's what I learned, Julian, is the details are so important on, on, on cases like this as to kind of answer your question in a very long winded way.

Julian Morgans (50:48)

But yeah, good answer. I want to finish with just a, just a real simple thing, and that is, do you have a message for the public? You know, do you have a message for anyone who's living or might be married to someone with a mysterious past? You know, what, what would you say to them?

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (51:05)

Don't be afraid to come forward. He may have disclosed to you some information about what happened that night or how he got away, that you just don't want to get wrapped up in trouble. We can work with you. We can work with someone that made a mistake. We've all, we're human. We all have made mistakes in our lives, but at the same time, he's a dangerous individual. I would hope that they would have the decency to come forward. Doing the right thing. Yeah.

Julian Morgans (51:38)

Thank you, Hugh. Thanks so much for your time and for running us through this story.

Detective Hugh Lockerbie (51:43)

You're welcome. Anything that I can do to help and to keep that message alive, that's what I'm here for. It's been a real honor and a privilege to talk to you, Julian.

Julian Morgans (51:57)

Hey, before we go, just a quick note for subscribers. We have a fascinating subscriber only episode waiting for you right now. Since we're deep in mystery country, this week's subscriber only episode looks at one of the biggest of all time, the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370. I'm talking with a man named Blaine Gibson, who is a self described wreck hunter, and he holds the pretty unusual record of having found more pieces of MH370 than anyone else. And Blaine says this work that he's been doing largely voluntarily, he believes that it's got him targeted. He and he thinks that there's a deeper conspiracy at play. It's a pretty wild, gripping conversation and it's live now for subscribers. So go and check it out if that is what you are. And if you're not a subscriber, well, you know what to do. All right, I'll see you next week. Bye. What It Was like is produced by Rachel Tuffery. This episode was edited by Ellie Dickey, who also does our research. Our cover art is by Rich Akers. Our theme music was produced by Jimmy Saunders. And this whole thing has been a super real production.

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