The Meat Industry Veteran Who'd Seen Enough

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Meat Industry Veteran Who'd Seen Enough"

Title: The Meat Industry Veteran Who'd Seen Enough
Host: Superreal (Julian Morgans)
Release Date: August 10, 2025
Podcast: What It Was Like
Description: Conversations with people who have lived through extreme events, providing intimate portraits of their experiences.

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Introduction and Background

In this compelling episode of "What It Was Like," host Julian Morgans engages in a profound conversation with David Magna, a former safety supervisor in Canadian abattoirs who transitioned from a career in the meat industry to embrace veganism. David's journey offers a unique insider perspective on the ethical and emotional challenges within the meat industry.

Growing Up in the Meat Industry ([08:20] - [13:07])

David shares his upbringing in Toronto, rooted deeply in the meat industry. "My grandparents moved here. They wanted a better life," he explains ([09:13]). Growing up, David was immersed in a culture where the family’s livelihood was tied to slaughterhouses, with his grandfather serving as a government inspector. This environment fostered a sense of duty and pride in maintaining industry standards.

First Impressions of the Slaughterhouse ([15:03] - [19:58])

At 19, David began his role as an inspector. He vividly recalls his first day: “I saw a head of this chicken... stuck to the crate. And then I kind of looked around and saw more body parts” ([16:03]). The overwhelming sensory experience—feathers, feces, and the stark reality of animal processing—left a lasting impact. Despite his initial resolve to uphold industry standards, the mental toll began to manifest as he struggled with the gruesome sights and the ethical implications of his work.

Working Conditions and Industry Practices ([20:25] - [27:40])

David delves into the harrowing details of slaughterhouse operations. He describes the inhumane treatment of animals: “These hens... laying 300 eggs a year... it's genetically engineered and wreaks havoc on their system” ([21:37]). The process, he notes, involves mechanical methods designed for efficiency rather than animal welfare, leading to unnecessary suffering.

He also highlights the employee dynamics and high turnover rates, emphasizing how marginalized communities, particularly immigrants and refugees, are often exploited in these roles. “It's no childhood dream to work up, to grow in a slaughterhouse,” David laments, pointing out the systemic issues that keep workers trapped in this grueling environment ([36:50]).

Catalyst for Change ([44:35] - [50:08])

After 15 years, a pivotal moment forced David to reevaluate his career. While working in the Animal Health unit, he encountered heart-wrenching cases, including a calf in a slaughterhouse truck that was “completely covered in feces, and their head was smashed” ([46:10]). This moment, compounded by his partner’s suggestion, led him to experiment with a vegan diet. Remarkably, David experienced improved health and clarity: “My childhood asthma kind of went away” ([49:00]). This personal transformation ignited his commitment to veganism.

Reflections on the Meat Industry and Society ([50:38] - [57:46])

David provides a critical analysis of the meat industry's hierarchy and ethical shortcomings. He discusses speciesism, the ingrained belief that humans are superior to other animals, which justifies their exploitation. He also sheds light on the industry's corruption and resistance to change, mentioning the ag gag laws designed to silence whistleblowers: “These are mafia run and they're unstoppable” ([56:30]).

He expresses concern over the global rise in meat consumption, particularly in developing nations, and the environmental and ethical implications this trend entails. However, he remains hopeful, noting the increasing popularity of plant-based alternatives and technological innovations like precision fermentation.

Personal Struggles and Mental Health ([19:58] - [52:15])

David opens up about the severe psychological impacts of his work, including anxiety, depression, and flashbacks. He recounts urging a colleague to leave the industry to protect her family, but many remained trapped due to financial necessity: “It doesn't matter about me, just matters about my kids” ([50:48]). This pervasive mental strain underscored the urgent need for change within the industry.

Closing Thoughts and Call to Action ([57:30] - [60:07])

Although David never disclosed his departure from the industry to his grandfather, the weight of his experiences compelled him to share his story. He encourages listeners to educate themselves through documentaries like "Dominion" and "Pignrant", and offers resources for transitioning to a vegan lifestyle: “Challenge22.com provides free meal kit advice... 21 days to break a habit” ([58:14]).

David emphasizes community support, urging individuals to connect with others on similar journeys: “Join communities as well... you'll always find people in your community” ([59:58]). His message is clear: informed choices can lead to meaningful change both personally and societally.

Notable Quotes

• David Magna ([09:13]): "It was my grandfather always instilled in me... he was proud to move to Canada and start a life there and maybe make a difference."
• David Magna ([16:03]): "I saw more, more body parts. But I just remember that first visual and then kind of just being stunned."
• David Magna ([21:37]): "These hens... laying 300 eggs a year... it's genetically engineered and wreaks havoc on their system."
• David Magna ([46:10]): "A calf was completely covered in feces, and their head was smashed."
• David Magna ([50:38]): "Maybe I would have just followed the crowd. I don’t know."
• David Magna ([58:14]): "Challenge22.com provides free meal kit advice... 21 days to break a habit."

Conclusion

David Magna's testimony offers a stark glimpse into the realities of the meat industry, highlighting ethical violations, psychological trauma, and systemic exploitation. His transition to veganism serves as both a personal redemption and a call to action for listeners to critically examine their dietary choices. Through his story, Julian Morgans underscores the importance of confronting uncomfortable truths to foster a more compassionate and sustainable world.

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Join Julian Morgans and guest David Magna on this eye-opening episode to explore the hidden facets of the meat industry and the profound journey from complicity to activism.

Transcript

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[David Magna]

I just remember putting on the gear, the face mask and you kind of push the doorway in. This wave of heat comes just like in your face and so like dust and feathers and you're kind of just closing your eyes, getting feathers in your eyes but like to the extreme. And so I just remember putting my hand down and touched what it like appeared to be like feces and just wiping it on my leg. As I'm walking up my my heart's kind of pounding because I hear this. The thumb. The thumb. And what I really first noticed was there was like a head of this chicken and it was, it appeared to be like stuck to the crate. And then I kind of looked around and I saw more, more body parts. But I just remember that first visual and then kind of just being stunned. It was really hard to see obviously and not really what I expected, but I don't know what I could have expected.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, I'm Julian Morgans and you're listening to what It Was like, the show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. Hey, before we get into this episode. I just want to be upfront. I eat meat. I eat meat all the time. In fact, for lunch today, I had a sandwich, and it was full of prosciutto, and it was delicious. And I'm telling you this because I want to assure you that this episode is not about telling you what to do. Personally, I hate being told what to do. And I particularly hate getting guilt tripped for enjoying food that my grandmother used to cook with her own fair hands. So I promise, I swear, this episode, we're not going to guilt trip you. That's not what this is. However, I do think that if we eat meat, and I do, then we should at least be willing to look at where it comes from. I just think it's the more honorable approach. It's like. It's like better manners or something. But having said that, until recently, I wasn't willing to know either. What's up with that? You know, that's kind of weird. It's the, like, the human capacity for compartmentalization is just. It's so intense because, I mean, in my own personal case, I knew that the meat industry would be terrifying if I learned about it. So I just deliberately looked away for years and years. And I think that's really common. I think. I think we all do that. I think if you ask the average person on the street, hey, tell me, do you think that the meat industry is cruel or pretty nice? Or what do you think they'd be like, yeah, it's cruel as hell, but I don't want to know about it. Don't tell me about it. I'm out of here. And I just think that's a really normal way that we all live. But I think that's kind of weird, right? It's one of the few instances where that psychology is really implemented. For example, if there was lead in the drinking water, we would all demand answers. We'd want to know how it got there and how much was it and how long it's been there, and we'd all want the answers. Or if there was a predator employed at a local school near where you lived, you'd want every detail. But this massive machine of life and death that exists in every city in the Western world, we don't want to know about it. We look away and we go and get a burger. So I was thinking about all this a few years ago, and I started to feel uncomfortable just about my own cowardice. I think I pride myself on being able to hear any story, to face any truth, whether I Like it or not. So I read this book about modern factory farming, some of you might know, eating animals. Anyway, what shocks me, it wasn't how the animals die. Like, animals die, you die, I die, we all die. But it's how they live. So I'll keep this short, but. But factory farm animals like pigs and chickens, they're all genetically engineered to grow super fast. And then they spend their short little lives in these filthy windowless sheds and they're kept alive with antibiotics because basically those kinds of conditions, you can't survive them without antibiotics. And then they all get slaughtered, basically, as children. They're like six months old, en masse by underpaid migrant workers in giant facilities. And that's what I learned. And yet, a couple of years later, here I am eating meat again because. Because I'm still very good at compartmentalization. I know the horror. And yet I had a prosciutto sandwich for lunch. But I'm curious. Why do some people switch? And how can I switch? Because. Because honestly, I don't want to eat meat anymore. So today I'm speaking to someone from the meat industry who became a vegan. His name's David Magna. And what I like about David is that he gets it. He didn't grow up as some hippie who's never tasted bacon. He's a third generation meat worker, actually a safety supervisor in Canadian abattoirs where he worked for decades, until finally, a couple of years ago, he had a crisis of conscience and he became a vegan. And I want to know why David, like, what happened to you? What, what, what was the breaking point? What. What was the catalyst? And what can his story tell us about the nature of beliefs, but also just about how the meat industry works? So. So if you're curious too, and if you've been enjoying this show because, like me, you pride yourself on. On unbridled curiosity, then come along, I'll hold your hand and we'll lift the lid together, and let's hear about David's journey. Oh, and just before I finish this intro bit for subscribers this week, there's a bonus episode where I chat with my old boss. Like, my old boss before I started producing podcasts and ran my own business, super real. And I actually briefly worked making content at this engineering firm, and the engineering firm specialized in designing slaughterhouses, of all things. And this guy, my old boss, he's seen the meat industry expand over decades, and he's kind of got the inside scoop about how they're implementing technology to scale up and how this whole thing's turned into this multi, multi billion dollar juggernaut. And he's got some heart as well. So I think it's a really interesting conversation from someone who's like, on the money end of the meat industry. Anyway, that's on the bonus episode. Let's return to this episode, the regular episode that you're listening to right now. And I hope you enjoy my conversation with David Magna. David, welcome to the show.

[David Magna]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Julian Morgans]

Thanks for being with me. Let's, let's start off talking about your, Your upbringing in Toronto. For anyone who's come into this to have a listen, very bravely perhaps, you know, like, you're just a regular guy in Canada with a regular childhood. You know, you growing up eating, eating bacon in the morning and playing hockey at night and. Yeah, and I guess the other part of this is that your family, you know, the family income was derived from slaughterhouses, you know.

[David Magna]

Right.

[Julian Morgans]

Like your dad and your grandfather both worked in slaughterhouses.

[David Magna]

Yeah, so it was my grandparents, my aunt, my uncle, my mom. My grandfather eventually became an inspector for the Canadian government. My uncle followed suit, and then I followed on the coattails of that. Yeah. Wow.

[Julian Morgans]

So there's a lot of, like, proud lineage there, right?

[David Magna]

Yeah. I mean, like, look, my grandparents moved here. They wanted a better life. They had that opportunity. It was either California or Ontario. I could have maybe been a surfer dude, but grew up playing hockey and, like, I got no complaints. And like you said, just a regular kind of typical childhood, you know, go to the rink, go play baseball, and, you know, go. Go through the typical kind of things. And like you were saying, you know, just the typical meals that everybody would have. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

And was there some pressure for you to sort of follow the, the, the family business? You know, was your dad like, you know, David, I work in a slaughterhouse. You shall also work in a slaughterhouse.

[David Magna]

Yeah, so. So my dad actually didn't work in the slaughterhouse, but he was, he was sort of instrumental as to why my mom worked in the slaughterhouse. And obviously, like, I spent a lot of time with my grandparents. I kind of grew up in that culture, so I didn't have a lot of ambition growing up.

[Julian Morgans]

I like the sort of Portuguese culture.

[David Magna]

Well, like, even in the animal agriculture culture, I would say so my grandparents would have pool parties and they would invite the inspectors and all the employees, so they would come all over. And I kind of grew up with the kids, and so I think the writing was sort of on the wall. I, I befriended you know, one of the other inspector's son, we would go over for barbecues and stuff like that. And I didn't have a lot of ambition growing up, but my grandfather always instilled in me, you know, government job, pension, you know, great benefits, all these things. So in my mind, you know, it was a big, it was a big person job. You know, I did all the little person jobs or the, the less, less career type jobs. And I always saw that as someone I looked up to. So I, I followed suit for sure. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Okay. And when you say inspector, like, what's, what sort of inspectors are we describing here?

[David Magna]

Yeah, so I, I put on many hats throughout my career. So I work for the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, much like any federal, federal regulated body. My, my role was to inspect Slaugh export facilities. I did fish inspection. So the role just really entangled around food safety. So things like temperature controls, formulation checks, just making sure the animals were somewhat killed properly. I use that lightly. And so, yeah, I mean, I saw a lot of things going into that that I never really realized what I was getting into. But I mean, I could play the naive card all I want, but it was very instrumental into probably the type of person I am today.

[Julian Morgans]

Sure. Okay. And so your grandfather had the same job. Basically, he was also an inspector.

[David Magna]

Yeah. So he worked on the kill floor as an employee. So he did kill animals. And he saw that the inspectors had a much nicer job as far as, like, you know, they're not doing the killing. And, you know, there's a bit of trauma associated with that. So he, he made it his mission to learn English and he befriended the inspectors and then he ultimately got a job as an inspector. And I think he worked about 15 years for the Canadian government.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, okay. And so you said before that you didn't have a lot of ambition as a teenager. So was your grandfather the one who was kind of like, hey, look, you know, you can do this job. Here's a leg up?

[David Magna]

Yeah, absolutely. He again, instilled these sort of values in me and where, you know, he had the two cars, he had the house, he had the pool, the perfect lawn. And so like, it was something to emulate just seeing how he carried himself. He was proud to move to Canada and start a life there and maybe make a difference. So that's what he thought he was doing at the time. And yeah, for sure, I, I envied that. And I thought, you know, I want to be like him.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. When you were a young man, like early 20s, what was your opinion of like, vegetarianism, veganism, that scene?

[David Magna]

Yeah, it's a great question. And I, I reflect back often and I honestly, I didn't know. I never heard of vegetarian or veganism. It just wasn't a thing when I was growing up. I never thought of it, I never heard of it. I, I never contemplated it. I, I thought it was just a diet and maybe there was a reason why, maybe an underlying health issue or something like that. Truly, I don't really recall a time where I thought, oh, I'm eating an animal. I just saw it as food and I, I thought it like, it was a must, you know, I. The people you trust tell you it's something you have to do. It' tradition, culture, and it's, it's like, obviously for your health. And so I never, I never contemplated these things. I was, I wouldn't say I was the brightest growing up. Maybe times haven't changed a bit, but, you know, I just never, never even really grasped that or thought about these things until later on when I started working in the agency that I did.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, sure, sure. Okay, so. So you took the job, right? He, he hooked you up with an interview, I guess. Guess you aced it.

[David Magna]

And.

[Julian Morgans]

Do you remember your first day on the job?

[David Magna]

Absolutely. And I remember vividly. And if you talk to people that I have talked to, former workers and stuff like that, these are the things that, the times that people remember as their first time walking into the places. And I mean, if I can paint a picture for you.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, please take me through it.

[David Magna]

Yeah. So my first day, I knew something was coming that I hadn't seen before. And so the tour of the plant that I was working at is a chicken slaughterhouse. And just sort of walking around the tour. And the last place, of course, is the live kill and the receiving area. And so I just remember them saying, okay, put this on, you know, get ready to go. You're going to see some things. And did they, they said that?

[Julian Morgans]

So, so, yeah, like, industry insiders were like, this is going to say some shit, you know, they knew that.

[David Magna]

Yeah, like, the inspectors there had been, I think the closest guy my senior. I was pretty young when I was an inspector. I started when I was 19. And so the next closest guy was maybe 10, 15 years my senior. And so they were like, just, just so you know, it's going to be a bit much, but stay with it, you'll be fine. And yeah, I just remember putting on the gear, the face mask, and I was trying to catch up. I Couldn't get these gloves on in time. And there's this doorway, and you kind of push the doorway, and this wave of heat comes just, like, in your face. And why is it hot? It was really hot, like dust and feathers. And you're kind of just closing your eyes, getting feathers in your eyes, if you can imagine, like, dusting somewhere, but, like, to the extreme. And so I just remember putting my hand down and touched what it, like, appeared to be, like, feces, like, and just wiping it on my leg. And then as I'm walking up, my. My heart's kind of pounding because I hear this. The thumb, the thumb, the thumb, the thumb. And I kind of look over and there's this truck. And what I really first noticed was, and I wasn't sure if I was seeing it properly was there was, like, a head of this chicken, and it appeared to be, like, stuck to the crate. And I started in December, so it's really cold. It was really cold that day. And so as I got closer, walking down these stairs and hearing the thumping and hearing like. Like, just noise from the. The chickens. You can hear them, like, chirp very lightly, but you could hear it. And, yeah, I just. I saw this head that was frozen to a crate. And then I kind of looked around and I saw more. More body parts or more chickens that were. Maybe even some were still alive at the time. I can't recall. But I just remember that first visual and then kind of just being stunned from what I saw and. But trying to keep up with the inspector that was showing me around. So I kind of looked and there was ice on the truck. And, yeah, it was really hard to see, obviously, and not really what I expected, but I don't know what I could have expected.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, I mean, what did you expect? Because I guess if that had been me, even at 19, I'd have probably had a moment where I looked myself in the mirror that morning and been like, right. You know, you got to psych yourself up. Like, I don't know. I don't know anything about slaughterhouses. I've never been in one. Never had anything to do with it. But I know enough to know that it's hell. I know that. Yeah.

[David Magna]

So I think just being young and naive and not really, like, doing my homework onto what I was looking into. And, yeah, man, like, I. I turn my head and, you know, I see these crates being dropped down and see these, you know, chicken, some hens jumping out, and see these people in this dark room hanging these birds and feathers and feces and everything flying everywhere. And like, I was, you know, I was torn because, like, I, emotionally, I was like, what the hell is going on? But also all the thoughts of my grandfather helping me get the interview. I don't want to embarrass my family. Be a man. You know, this is what has to happen and this is, you know, this is normal. This is what has to take place. And I can't just walk out on that first day, that first moment, so I gotta suck it up. And I think that's kind of what played with me as I, as I saw that. And, you know, I could go on, but yeah, it was, it was really obviously difficult and yeah, it's hard to explain.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, no, I mean, like, go on. I mean, yeah, a lot of. He's reluctant, part of me is reluctant because I don't want this to turn into some sort of torture porn description. But. And then also, but then also, you know, like, I reckon 99.9% of the people who are listening to this have eaten chicken nuggets in the last month or two. So, like, I mean, tell us, tell us, David, where do these chicken nuggets come from? What's the process?

[David Magna]

Well, you know, I think, I think what's key is, is just knowing the process. And as long as, you know, and, and you're educated on it, at least, you know, Right. Rather than just kind of blindly turning an eye and running away from it, I think, you know, then you, then you can say, you know, you've looked into, you feel confident with your decisions whether you choose or don't choose. And I, I'm not here to judge anyone. Like, I worked in a slaughterhouse, you know, for many years and so many things that people will never, ever. That they couldn't imagine. Right. And. Exactly. I don't, I don't want to turn people saying it was, you know, horrific, but, you know, in a way it was. And so, yeah, you know, I've seen quite awful things. You know, these hens that are laying eggs, they. In the, in the early 1900s, you know, they would be laying an egg. 12 to 16 eggs per year. Now they're up to 300 because they've been genetically engineered. And so it, it wreaks havoc on their system. And it's no wonder. I saw limbs being, you know, ripped off when they were being hung and, you know, just these.

[Julian Morgans]

What do you mean? Sorry, can I ask what, what, what do you mean being hung? You don't mean being hung like, like a, like hangman?

[David Magna]

You mean like, well, yeah, so sorry, when I say hung, I mean their legs were being hung on shackles and so sometimes they'd be hung by their wings if they were missing a leg or something. But yeah, this would be hung on shackles, metal shackles. And so if you can get that, I, I mean it's, it's a hard description and again, I don't want to, you know, scare anybody, but it's just the reality. Right?

[Julian Morgans]

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[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so this is a sort of like the first stage of the conveyor belt experience. They get just hung on these things by their legs.

[David Magna]

Yes. And now even furthermore, some chickens are put into the gas instead of being electrocuted. So what happens is they stun them, their heads in a water bath as after they're being hung. And so they'll go down a conveyor belt, and that will stun them. And then a mechanical knife will cut them, unless, if it misses, and then someone else will slit their neck, and then they'll go into a skull tank. Okay.

[Julian Morgans]

And the. And the water bath is electrified, is that right?

[David Magna]

Yeah. So they call it a stunning method. I. For me, I think it's more about, like, the stunning of the animals. I think it's more so that the. The birds don't freak out and maybe an employee gets hurt. I think that's more or less why they would do that. I don't think it's. It's. I mean, it could be for a reason of stunning them before killing them. But I was told that it was just to. It was the best way to do it before they were killed because they can't legally do drugs because that could leak into the flesh, and then, you know, someone could eat that. So this is the best method that the industries come up with. And I could get into the gas chambers that they use for pigs. So that's a CO2 gas chamber. And the majority of pigs are put into these chambers. It knocks them out most of the time, but it's a really hard process for that minute or less than a minute that they're in there. I mean, it's standard industry practice. I think it's good to know. Good to know what you're paying for. But I understand certain audiences that, you know, you. You want to be respectful and you want to talk to them at their level. And I found that usually works. I mean, for about 80% of people. I think talking just level to people one on one, like we are today, it's. It's. It's a much better process for. For everybody, but.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, much better. You know, you know that joke about, like, how do you know if there's a vegan in the room? Yeah, because they'll tell you. Like. Yeah, I think that that's the cliche that people. That makes people lean back or just exit the room. So, yeah, I think empathetic kind of soft conversation is always the best method. All right, so let's just go back to this sort of vision of you as a 19 year old going into a slaughterhouse for the first time.

[David Magna]

Sure.

[Julian Morgans]

So I just want to sort of complete your first day on the job, you know. How did you feel by the end of that day?

[David Magna]

Well, I, you know, I, I didn't realize the smell was going to be so bad. It was like literally in my nose and like I could, that's all I smelt. And I get into my car and I'm like, my car is going to smell like this. And what was the smell? I don't know if you've ever been to a farm, but essentially feces and urine and you know, it's, it's really hard to explain, just really like awful. I think I was smoking at the time, so I, I would smoke to mask that, I think. And you know, you go home in the shower and you rinse off as much as you can, but it kind of sticks with you.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, I'm just so interested in your, in your headspace at that time because you know, you're, you're vegan now. You're a sort of public facing. Your handle on your Gmail account is like the 40 year old vegan, which is very clever by the way. Like this is your identity, but at that time you're just a regular guy. So I'm so curious about this transformation. You know, you just go to bed that night and you're like, oh well, got work again tomorrow. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, were you unfazed at the start?

[David Magna]

Yeah, not unfazed. I would say that those first few days were very difficult. And I think what I saw, I think I was kind of, I had the white night kind of thing where I wanted to make sure that everything was being done proper within the confines of the law. I'd be angry quite often when I would go there. So if I saw an employee, say, dropping a crate from very far, you know, I would go and I would be like, what are you doing? I mean, it was my job. But a lot of inspectors, they just kind of give up because you, you try to bring things to the attention of your supervisor or something like that and it kind of just goes on deaf ears. And so I think I was just trying to make the process better. I've sort of always been like that, try to make things like a little bit better for, for anyone, even the employees. So I think that's the lens I had. I didn't really put more thought into it. I think maybe that could have been a trauma Response, but I'm not sure. And so I did bury that for a long time. As I mentioned, I got really sick for a while, and so I was off for a year and a half. I had a. Developed E. Coli and salmonella, or, sorry, cold, campylobacter. And what happened to me was, like, some people really react bad and some people don't. Most workers will contract those pathogens. And, you know, I ended up with a blood clot in my lung and I had to take off some time. So it was a really difficult time for a couple years there. Blood work every day, needles in the stomach and yeah, it was awful. It was really awful. And yeah, again, like, I just. Going back, I felt this urge to just make things better, to make sure that, you know, people were wearing their masks properly, that maybe ventilation procedures could be a bit better and stuff like that. That was sort of the frame of mind that I had. And then after that, I was. I was suffering with respiratory problems. A number of people will at those places. And so they moved me out because I couldn't breathe. I went to my doctor and, you know, I had some asthma, and they moved me outside of that facility. And I worked in sort of like the processing side of things and imports and exports, where you're not necessarily on the kill floor, but you're there when they're, say, battering, like, burgers and stuff like that.

[Julian Morgans]

Sure. Okay.

[David Magna]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

So how long did you work as an inspector for?

[David Magna]

So I worked for about 15 and a half years for the Canadian Food Inspection Agency in slaughterhouses. It was about six to eight years. Again, I had health issues a couple times, so I was off for probably about three years in between that, and then I worked in processing, and then I worked in a place called Animal Health. And that's where things really changed for me.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, and so in that time, you're seeing slaughterhouses all over Canada. I'm guessing you're traveling lots. I don't know if it's possible, but could you just give us a quick rundown on, like, how the. How the system works? Like, are there just like a couple of really giant slaughterhouses that handle the entire country, or is it all spread out or, like, just give us. Give us a bit of a bird's eye view.

[David Magna]

Yeah, you're going to have some smaller places. Depends if they're provincially regulated or federally. That all has to do with trade. So the places I worked were the federally registered establishments, so they were a lot bigger. So, for example, the place I worked at, Maple Lodge, Farm, predominantly, for many of my years, they killed up to 500,000 chickens a day. So the day. A day that is.

[Julian Morgans]

That is a big day.

[David Magna]

I think that's a lot. And so there'd be. I think it was 180 birds per minute, three birds per second when I left.

[Julian Morgans]

Were these places running 24 hours a day.

[David Magna]

So it'd be two shifts. Two shifts. So about 250 per shift, yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. But they don't operate at night, or is it just a continuous process?

[David Magna]

You know, they're doing maintenance and stuff at night, so not the kill operation. Okay.

[Julian Morgans]

Wow. Jesus. Scale of that is crazy. And that's just one. That's just one facility.

[David Magna]

That's one. And also. So part of my training involved me going to the pig and the cow slaughter facilities. And also there was a strike. So I was working at the cow facilities. And I think I had more of a visceral reaction when I saw the cows, possibly because the first cow I. First cows I saw go through that process was. Yeah, it was really hard to. To. To see. Yeah, really hard. So if you want to talk about it.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. I don't know why, but I'm feeling. Feeling brave. Tell me.

[David Magna]

Yeah, so I, you know, I. Again, it was sort of similar. You're. You're just waiting to go out onto this kill floor. You get the tour, and the last spot you go is where the cows are lining up. And then I was walked up to the process to see where the cows are getting shot. So it's a captive bolt gun they use, and they aim for a certain spot in the skull and it kind of stuns them for a bit, and they go down a conveyor belt and there's these chains that will hook up their feet, and then they'll go up and there'll be somebody with a machete and they'll start slicing at their neck. And, yeah, just blood comes out. And what's. Really. There's a few parts to, like, this area is seeing, like, they had automatic skin, like hide rollers that just really took off the skin. So you would see that happen. And when they were cut down the middle, as after the blood was out, their entire innards would just fall onto this massive conveyor belt. And that was just so wow to see. And, yeah, I remember seeing that the first cow that I saw get stunned. You know, they were flailing around and. And then. And then I looked into one of the bins and I saw a calf. And I didn't realize at the time, but, you know, Some, Some of those cows are still pregnant while they're, While they're slaughtered. So, yeah, just a lot to take in. And really, one day I saw all of that and then just seeing no skin on the skull and people cutting, cutting that. It was just. Yeah, I called in sick the rest of the week. I just, I just, I didn't tell anybody. I, I just said that I was sick. I, you know, I, I. Mentally, I was, I was feeling it and, yeah, it was pretty, Pretty awful to see. Pretty hard to see.

[Julian Morgans]

I wonder how often. I mean, I guess they've got this training program. It's kind of like the military, you know, you're sort of just training up fresh recruits and you've got no idea really, psychologically who's going to stick around in this job and who's going to take the week off.

[David Magna]

Right.

[Julian Morgans]

I wonder if they saw this a fair bit, if they were like, oh, yeah, we've got. Got another softy who's taking the week off. Or if they were like, oh, that's unusual. That never happens.

[David Magna]

Well, there is a high turnover rate. Whether you're inspectors or whether you're like the first day on the job, people are looking for other jobs. You saw it all the time. People would be applying to different government jobs because, you know, you want to stay in the government because then you can carry on your pension. And I think that was the incentive for government employees. But as far as the regular employees, those are, those aren't, you know, it's no childhood dream to work up, to grow in a slaughterhouse. It's, it's generally roughly marginalized, racialized people. So immigrants, refugees, those are the people that are generally working these positions. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's. And it's a high turnover rate due to. Because people become really ill. You know, people will hurt themselves, cut themselves. Sometimes, you know, those, those injuries add up. And often what's troubling to me is that they surround, like, these communities with, you know, similar culture or similar experiences like war or. You know, on the case where I worked at Maple lodge, it was 60 or 80% Portuguese and 20% Filipino. So that worked there. And they all knew each other. So they all knew each other's lives and they would work through that experience together. But I felt like they were exploited, the workers as well.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. And I don't know why I thought of this, but it seems interesting to me. I think there's this idea that when the animals are going into a slaughterhouse, they have no idea what's going to hit them, and therefore they're not stressed. You know, there's. There's this idea that if they're on the truck, the animals are like, oh, we're just going to a different paddock. And then when they get to the slaughterhouse, they're like, yeah, we're just going to. I don't know. God knows. In from what you saw, is that in any way true?

[David Magna]

I think these animals are. They probably have more heightened senses than we do. I think they understand at that moment. You just look into their eyes, and I think they know. I think, you know, obviously they can.

[Julian Morgans]

Why would they know, do you reckon they sort of smell blood and they sort of smell death in the air?

[David Magna]

I think so. You know, especially getting closer to the slaughterhouse, it's no picnic riding on these. These trucks either. Pigs, for example, some hens, probably chickens, and maybe some cows. That'll be the first time they're outside, the first time they smell fresh air. So all these senses are heightened. And if you can imagine, you know, they're all. They all have to go to the washroom on these trucks. It's. They're scared. And, you know, that's one of the telltale signs is you go up to one of these trucks, you're going to smell it from a while, like a mile away, just because it smells so bad. And, you know, as you pull up closer to the kill floor, you know there's. There's gonna be blood. They're gonna. They're gonna smell that. They're gonna sense it. I can't tell you how many animals tried to turn the other way as far as when I went to the cow slaughterhouse and. And I was only there for a limited time. They. They know. They know what's going on, I think, anyways.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, that's so sad. Yeah, that's. I don't know why, but that detail there has really bummed me out.

[David Magna]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

I liked the idea that they were ignorant.

[David Magna]

Yeah. Ignorance says yes.

[Julian Morgans]

My God. And it's. It's. And it's just occurred to me that, I mean, you were. You're sort of talking about how this industry leans so hard on immigrants and refugees. Like, there's this real hierarchy of consciousness that. That this industry leans on, which is like. Like white people at the top. And then beneath that, we've got immigrants, so we get them to do the worst jobs in the world. And then beneath that, we've got animals who aren't even immigrants. They're just animals. So, like, eat them. You Know, there's this really clearly defined pyramid of consciousness. It's so yuck. It's so yuck.

[David Magna]

Yeah, it's almost like human supremacy at its finest. There's this thing called speciesism where we view other animals as lesser than or we view them as objects or entertainment or fashion and things like that. And you know, like, I have seen a good amount of change, but, you know, in the fur industry, for example, I think most people are agreeing that we shouldn't be wearing animals. A lot of people are coming to notice that zoos maybe not be the best place maybe go visit a sanctuary and. Yeah, animal testing. I think some countries are outright banning it. So I think there is a collective awakening. It's just we've been told these things. We've been told this our whole lives. This is normal, this is what we've been doing. It's tradition, it's culture, and somehow we have to keep doing it. What gives me hope is I think people are starting to wake up to this reality.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, I like to think so as well. But then I often see these stats around meat consumption. Meat's becoming more and more popular around the world. Developing nations are like, oh, we should have meat with every single meal. Just like those fatties in the West. And that, that's depressing. That's, that's not sustainable.

[David Magna]

Like obviously, yeah, with developing nations they are going to be, you know, eating more animal flesh. I think maybe the west is starting to shift a little bit where we're, we're taking seriously the, you know, the risk of cancer. What gives me hope is, you know, you see people changing from plant based to plant based milks and you see a rise in plant based options. Veganic and vertical farming are being talked about. Precision fermentation. But yeah, you're right. I mean, it's devastating to see the numbers, the sheer amount of gluttony I would call it, you know, just, just not even a thought about it. And like, I don't know about you, when I grew up, it was, it was more or less we'd have like a little, little spot on our plate for animal products. It wasn't the main course, you know, it was, you had your mix of vegetables and whatever, and now it's just dominating. And even people are taking it even that to the extreme as well.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, this bit of music means it's time for an ad break. But please don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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[Julian Morgans]

So let's look at when your mind shifted. Right, so you worked this job for a long time and I know that you said you got sick a few times. Sounds, it sounds like you were really sick as well. But was there, was there a catalyst? Like was there finally something that you saw or some sort of industry practice that you were like just. No, I'm done.

[David Magna]

Yeah, I, like I mentioned I was working in the slaughterhouses for a while, then I moved out and I was in processing and there's a plant that I worked at for some time and I saw some things that I didn't really agree with. I brought them to the attention of my supervisor and my supervisor really didn't do a lot about it. So they kicked me out of this area and basically they, they gave me six months to work and I don't know if they did it on purpose but they sent me to this investigation unit. So I worked in animal health, that was the unit, that's what it was called. And yeah, I, the job entailed me looking at videos and photograph photographs and inspector's notes of all the non compliances. So I forgot to mention like one of my previous roles was to document the amount of chickens that were coming in that were dead. And then my part of my job was to put their bodies in a garbage bag and bring them to a necropsy area or autopsy area where the, the vet would literally cut them open in front of me and determine the cause of death.

[Julian Morgans]

Really?

[David Magna]

Yeah. So, so these, these deaths were occurring in, in the summer and the winter. And so it was, you kind of knew what the cause of death was, but for legal purposes they had to do that. And I only went to court two times in my 15 years after documenting probably hundreds of cases of these. And so fast forward I'm out of that environment, the slaughterhouse, it's kind of buried in me. And now I'm reviewing these files and, you know, one of the first files, and as I was reviewing the file, a lady who worked in that unit said, you know, the previous people that have worked in this unit or that position, they don't even look at the pictures or the videos. They just look to make sure the inspector's notes are proper. And then they send it up the chain and they decide if it's going to go to court or not, so to be prosecuted under the federal regulations there. And I'm like, no, this is my job. Like, I've been hired to do this, and I'm not going to not do my job. And, like, one of the first photos I saw was of a. It was. It was awful. So it was a slaughterhouse truck, and it was really hard to see, but I could make out the shape of a calf. And the calf was completely covered in feces, and their head was smashed. And because the. The mother cow was beside them also with their. Their head sort of smashed. And what, what I. What I think had happened and what the inspector said had happened was that they must have been trampled upon while she was giving birth. And so I just. In that moment, in those moments, I was really struggling mentally. My partner at the time, I told her, I just don't want to work in this job anymore. I can't do it. My mental health's breaking down. And I didn't really tell her the things I saw just because I don't like putting that trauma on people. Even right now, I feel uncomfortable doing it just because I don't want people to have to go through what I've been through. And, yeah, it was awful. And she had said, well, why don't we try veg? And I had some ideas on that because there was an inspector that was Vegas, maybe a couple that were. And I was like, yeah, like, I'm willing to try anything. And so I tried it. A couple weeks later, I knew what happened with dairy and eggs. And I'm like, well, I'm fine. So I dropped the dairy and eggs. And, you know, I was waiting for something bad to happen because I've been told my whole life, you're going to lack this, you're going to miss this. You're going to. Something's going to happen. And guess what? I didn't die. And I felt fine. My. In fact, my childhood asthma kind of went away, and I was in shock. I was. I was like. I was lost for a long time, just thinking Like, I've been duped. Like, how could I be so naive? Like, I'm the dumbest person in the room. And, like, what. You know, you worked in that. You profited off of that. You lived in that, and you saw this happen daily. And. And now you have. Like, I was having night terrors. I still do. And flashbacks all the time. Yeah, like, daily flashbacks. I see someone eating. I think of. I see a garbage bag. I think of. I see a truck. I think of, you know, I could go on. And. So, yeah, that was sort of the awakening. The start of the awakening. And I think if anybody was in my position, they'd probably come to the same conclusion. Probably a bit quicker than naive me. But, yeah, that's sort of the. The. The start of it. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Do you think you'd be a vegan if you hadn't gone through this experience?

[David Magna]

It's a great question, Julian. I. I think of that all the time. I don't know. I. Maybe I think I'm just lucky. Maybe. Maybe I. Because I was so naive where I worked and. And all of that. Maybe. Maybe I would have just followed the crowd. I don't know. I really. I think about it. I think I'm. I'm lucky that I had this awakening, and. But because of that luck, I feel obligated to share my story and tell people and yell it out to the world.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Was anxiety and. And depression fairly well spread, Fairly widely spread in these facilities?

[David Magna]

Yeah, I mean, I think it was almost like a survival situation for, like, this lady I worked with, Maria, for example, she, you know, she moved to Canada. English was in her native language. She had shoulder issues. She had just come off carpal tunnel surgery. She was going for her second carpal tunnel surgery. And I said to her, listen, you know, Maria, you got to get out of here. You got to get a different job. It's killing you. And her. What she said was like. And it always sticks with me is it doesn't matter about me, just matters about my kids. I don't speak English. I can't get another job that pays this. And I, you know, I work with everybody here. I know everybody here, and it's just so sad to see. And I saw that frequently, and if you look at the people that worked on the kill floor and the kill line, especially the backup killers, they, like, you just. You walk up to them, you say hello, and, you know, they're just kind of sitting there like this, you know, like, completely, just not there. And I found myself in that situation as well. Maybe I didn't do the killing, but certainly seeing as much as I did affected me.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Because they're so sort of practiced in the art of compartmentalization that they've just detached themselves from reality.

[David Magna]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, what I. What I'm sort of hearing, talking to you through all, I'm just thinking about, like we're. We're all being fed this information about how it's culture, it's for your health, it's. I mean, it's tasty. I'd say it's. Objectively, meat's pretty tasty, bacon is tasty. But. But the other stuff is kind of propaganda. And I'm guessing it just comes from a hugely profitable industry that just happens to be cashing in on these notions that we have around our mother's cooking and these real nebulous kind of tightly held beliefs. But I guess, what can you tell us about this industry? Are the executives in this industry as evil as I'm imagining or as psychopathic as I'm imagining, or as detached, as apathetic as I'm imagining? How much money are they earning? How many mentions do each of them have?

[David Magna]

Well, you know, I think it's probably a scale. You know, there's probably people that really don't know. I personally know many people that still work in the industry, and a lot of them still have these beliefs. You know, there's something called Plato's Cave. I think, you know, what you're shown versus what the reality is. And we often try to show that as animal rights activists. And I do think there's a sense of, you know, generational wealth, that that's really important to say farmers, they want to keep it in the family. They've gone to great lengths to use the government and subsidies to hold on to those, hold on to that generational wealth and put it in the family and keep that going. And I think too, I think there's a lot of cognitive dissonance that goes on the farm. Often farmers aren't the one taking the lives. Right. They're sending to slaughter. And most of the time they will probably never even see a slaughterhouse. So they can close their eyes off to what takes place and maybe not be culpable that way, but they can certainly earn a living. But it's even a hierarchy there. Like these farmers, especially these co ops, they're getting more wealthy, whereas there's some farmers that are really struggling and they have to pay their dues and they're not going to get to that same level. As far as like the bureaucracy is concerned, definitely. Like, we had an activist, Regan Russell, she was killed here after an ag gag law was passed. So for those of you who don't know, ag gag bill is something that the agricultural industry tries to silence, sort of whistleblowing and what takes place.

[Julian Morgans]

We got similar stuff.

[David Magna]

Yeah, yeah. And so that, that, you know, that bill is passed by the Ministry of Agriculture. You know, he's, he's the head of it, Ernie Harmon, you know, he's, he's the head. And then his, his nephews, the critic opposite him, opposite party, and they're both, you know, cash crops and making money off the system. So of course they're going to pass this law. And so there's that part. And then as well as. Yeah, like that, that person I was talking to you about, Regan, we went to the owner's house that day. So this is called Fearman Slaughterhouse and it's in Burlington, Ontario, but near Toronto. And they kill 10,000 pigs a day. And so, you know, we demanded, you know, that something be said by this, you know, this really, really, really, really rich person. And we drove up to his house and if you can imagine the size of a massive slaughterhouse, his house was double the size of the slaughterhouse. He had tennis courts, he had two men at the gate telling us to stay off the property. And you know, of course these guys are making so much money they get subsidized as well, this Maple Leaf and these companies. So they know how to gamify the system.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, this guy with the, the tennis courts and the, the butlers at the front gate. Did you ever get a comment from him?

[David Magna]

No, no, he, he will, will never comment on what took place. And yeah, he's, he's a billionaire. He owns several places. His son is an F1 car driver. And you know, he didn't go up the ranks like maybe others did. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, Cargill's another one where, you know, you probably heard of Cargill, called the worst company in the world by some.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, they're big.

[David Magna]

Yeah, there's, there's, them and Maple Leaf is, is the other one. And you know, there's JBS and, and other places. So, yeah, these are, these are. Basically, some of them are mafia run and you know, they're unstoppable.

[Julian Morgans]

Who would have thought? Shocking, shocking that the meat industry goes hand in hand with corruption and, you know, all sorts of bad stuff. When you quit the business, was your grandfather still around? And you, did you have a conversation.

[David Magna]

With him, I, one thing I, I never did was tell him. I didn't have the courage to tell him because I thought it would break his heart or something like that. So, you know, he would ask me how work's going and I kind of just nod and walk away. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Okay. Well, David, this has been really interesting and I've got, I've got one last question for you. And that is. So anyone who's listening to this, if they've come this far in the journey, I reckon they're probably like, huh, this is interesting. I'm, you know, I might not have meat in my next meal. They might be thinking that. I was wondering, I just wanted to sort of hand you the mic, you know. What, what sort of like, I don't know, parting gift or parting wisdom would you like to leave people with?

[David Magna]

So what I would say to anybody who's really interested in looking into these things, if you need motivation, watch Dominion, the movie. It's on YouTube. There's pignerant too as well. There's a bunch of documentaries that show you standard industry practice. If you can't watch those, I understand. And if you're really actually just looking for the meal portion and how to just try it. Challenge22.com they provide free meal kit advice. They'll walk you through any nutritional needs that you think you might be missing. Like a lot of people have this idea that you'd be missing protein. That's far from the case. And so they'll walk you through it. They have nutritionists on staff, they have dietitians on staff. And I don't know about you or in Australia, but here you have to pay quite a bit of money to just go to a dietitian, let alone have somebody who can critique a meal plan for you. And it's just 21 days, 22 days to break a habit. So try it for the three weeks. I don't think you're going to be missing anything. But I always want you to remember the. Why am I doing this? There's an individual on the other side of that that would be my plug. And yeah, I really, I really appreciate you having me on. If you have any questions, anybody. The 40 year old vegan on Instagram. I'm on YouTube, I'm on TikTok and come connect with me. I'd love to hear from you and I can help you, help you along the way and always join communities as well. Join the Facebook groups, join the Instagram influencers or people in your community. You're always going to find people in your community.

[Julian Morgans]

So great. Well, thanks so much, David. This has been amazing.

[David Magna]

Yeah, it's been great. Thanks for having me on.

[Julian Morgans]

Today's episode was produced by Rachel Tuffery. It was mixed by Jimmy Saunders, who also did our theme music. Our cover art is by Rich Akers. Ellie Dickey is our intern. And this whole thing has been a super real production.

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