Three Deaths at a Spiritual Retreat

Summary

Podcast Summary: What It Was Like – “Three Deaths at a Spiritual Retreat”

Host: Julian Morgans
Guest: Amira Hamilton
Date: August 16, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, host Julian Morgans speaks with Amira Hamilton, the owner of Angel Valley retreat center in Sedona, Arizona. Amira offers a firsthand account of the 2009 tragedy at a James Arthur Ray “Spiritual Warrior Retreat,” where a sweat lodge ceremony ended with three attendees dead and many others suffering severe heatstroke. The conversation combines an intimate, moment-by-moment retelling with thoughtful reflections on wellness culture, blind ambition, group dynamics, and personal healing after surviving a disaster.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Setting the Scene: Angel Valley and James Ray

[06:02 – 16:30]

• Amira’s Journey: Amira, originally from the Netherlands, describes moving to the US with her husband Michael to start Angel Valley, a haven for spiritual growth and retreats.
• Relationship with James Arthur Ray:
  • James Ray first approached Angel Valley in 2003 to host a “vision quest” and sweat lodge.
  • Early collaborations were positive, but as Ray’s fame (through “The Secret”) and demands grew, Amira and Michael became increasingly uneasy.
• James Ray’s Persona:
  • Known for ambition, control, and minimal authentic interaction.
  • “We started wondering. We do not feel that this man is walking his talk…” – Amira ([14:05])
  • Disappointment grew as Ray’s fame increased; he was perceived as “inauthentic” and acting out his celebrity status.

2. The Retreat and Sweat Lodge Ceremony

[18:30 – 24:52]

• Sweat Lodge Tradition: Amira explains the healing, spiritual origins of sweat lodges (usually intimate, around 15 people, four rounds, gentle).
• Ray’s Modifications:
  • Insisted on one massive lodge for 56 people, despite warnings.
  • Doubled the number of hot stones and rounds, making it an endurance ordeal rather than a spiritual ceremony.
• Preparation Concerns: “He was not a person who liked to hear ‘no’” – Amira ([24:52]). Attempts to persuade Ray to run smaller, safer ceremonies were rebuffed.

3. The Day of the Tragedy

[29:09 – 40:36]

• Logistics: Guests returned from a “vision quest,” ate breakfast, then prepared for the afternoon sweat lodge.
• Unfolding Disaster:
  • Staff and Amira began to sense something was off as the ceremony progressed.
  • Reports that some participants were unconscious inside were ignored:
    “Somebody was unconscious and James Ray said, ‘Oh, we’ll take care of that after this round.’” – Amira ([34:18])
  • After the ceremony, chaos: “You have never seen a chaos like that. People falling, people throwing up, people not being able to stand…” ([35:11])
  • James Ray, according to Amira, showed no concern: “He was just standing there and doing nothing. It was utter chaos.” ([36:58])

4. Cause and Group Dynamics

[40:36 – 44:14]

• Heatstroke: Medical explanation — body temperature exceeded safe limits (over 42°C / 104°F), a direct result of the excessive heat and duration.
• Social Pressure & Obedience:
  • Group ambition, the cost of the retreat, competitive environment, and belief in Ray discouraged people from leaving, even when feeling ill.
  • “They were not going to disappoint themselves. They were not going to disappoint James Ray…” ([43:36])
  • Amira reflects that this tragedy is a lesson in never giving your power or intuition away, regardless of authority or groupthink.

5. The Deaths and Immediate Aftermath

[48:00 – 56:12]

• Rescue Efforts:
  • Staff had to physically remove two unconscious people from the lodge; CPR failed to revive them.
  • Victims: Kirby Brown (38), James Shore (40), and, later, a third woman (accomplished surfer, three children) died after a week in hospital.
• Police Confusion: Authorities at first could not determine if it was a mass suicide or a crime scene (reference to Jonestown).

6. Fallout: Lawsuits, Media, and Blame

[56:38 – 68:19]

• Legal Battles:
  • Multiple lawsuits (about 10) filed against Amira and her husband; many plaintiffs were not seriously injured but saw opportunity for compensation.
  • “We had lawsuits. But these were all civil lawsuits. They were just going after money.” – Amira ([65:52])
  • Liability insurance was targeted by attorneys; threat that property could be taken.
• Criminal Trial:
  • James Ray was ultimately convicted and served two years in prison.
  • “For James Ray not to take responsibility for what happened and trying to make us responsible for it…” – Amira ([67:06])
• Media Scrutiny:
  • Sensational coverage painted the event and broader self-help industry in a negative light; Amira laments the simplistic narratives.

7. Broader Reflections & Lessons

[68:28 – 79:00]

• Learning and Growth:
  • Amira emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and personal learning from trauma, for both participants and facilitators.
  • “Never, never ignore your own intuition and never ignore your own sense of, ‘this does not feel right.’” – Amira ([44:18])
• Handling Trauma:
  • Amira describes anger, then gradual healing through approaching the tragedy as an opportunity for lifelong learning.
  • “I am committed to not waste my life. So even if it’s difficult...then so be it.” ([74:47])
• On Meaning:
  • Sees all experiences as invitations to grow; she feels honoring the memories of those lost means extracting valuable lessons.
  • “Every experience…can enrich our life. And that’s why we are here.” – Amira ([74:47])
• On James Ray (and leaders in general):
  • Facilitators and authority figures must check their ego and never overstep or disregard the wellbeing of others for ambition’s sake.

8. Closure and Moving Forward

[77:18 – 79:43]

• Ray served a reduced sentence, returned to business, and passed away in 2025; Amira never spoke to him again.
• Amira concludes with wisdom:
  • “When everything goes fine, we just start taking things for granted...and then something tragic happens and we have to gather everything we have to do something with it. And for me, having encountered a couple of difficult things has helped me a lot to drop judgments and...apply a little more wisdom.” ([78:21])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

On the chaos:

• “You have never seen a chaos like that. It was just. It was horrible. People falling, people throwing up, people not being able to stand...” – Amira ([35:11])

On James Ray’s indifference:

• “He was just standing there and doing nothing. And I had this kind of. My gosh. I mean, I started helping people who needed help, and...it was utter chaos.” – Amira ([36:58])

On groupthink and ambition:

• “They were not going to disappoint themselves. They were not going to disappoint each other. They were not going to disappoint James Ray. They were going to show that they could do it.” – Amira ([43:36])

On personal responsibility:

• “Never give your power away to somebody else who thinks what's best...Trust that your intuition knows its best for what's for you.” – Amira ([44:00], [44:14])

On healing and growth:

• “Every experience...is an invitation to make it into something that can enrich our life. And that's why we are here. And if we don't, I feel that as a waste.” – Amira ([74:47])

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Takeaways, Reflections & Final Thoughts

Toxic Wellness Culture:

• The dangers of unchecked ambition and competitiveness, particularly when enabled by a “guru” figure and the commercialized self-help industry.

Blind Obedience:

• A microcosm of groupthink and the hazards of surrendering personal agency in pursuit of acceptance, achievement, or spiritual fulfillment.

Personal Philosophy:

• Amira's story is ultimately one of resilience, advocating for learning from hardship, maintaining self-awareness, and refusing to relinquish judgment to authority.

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Suggested Listening Timestamps

• James Ray’s early involvement: [08:47 – 16:49]
• Sweat lodge tradition vs. Ray’s approach: [18:30 – 24:52]
• Moment disaster unfolded: [32:36 – 36:58]
• On heatstroke and group dynamics: [39:18 – 44:14]
• Immediate aftermath and recovery: [48:00 – 56:12]
• Reflections on meaning and moving forward: [68:28 – 79:00]

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Tone & Style

The episode is conversational, intimate, and reflective. Amira speaks with clear compassion, humility, and wisdom. Julian’s tone is candid, occasionally skeptical, but always respectful and curious.

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For full details of Amira’s perspective and the events, her book “Transformation at Angel Valley” is recommended as a companion resource.

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Transcript

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[Amira Hamilton]

It is the future.

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[Amira Hamilton]

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[Amira Hamilton]

Super real then in the meantime, I had also seen that some people had come out in between and they were not in good shape. Well, Julian, you have never seen a chaos like that. It was just. It was horrible. People falling, people throwing up, people not being able to stand. People blocking somebody else's way because they couldn't walk. It was really disastrous. And of course the sweat lodge had just a small opening so. So they could only come out one by one.

[Julian Morgans]

How was James Ray responding? Did it seem like he was concerned?

[Amira Hamilton]

No, he was just standing there and doing nothing. It was utter chaos.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, I'm Julian Morgans and you're listening to what It Was Like. The show that asks people who have lived through big dramatic events what it was like. Do you remember the Secret? So back in 2006, it was that self help DVD slash book phenomenon that espoused the notion that thoughts alone can shape reality. Basically, it was the first thing that really took the idea of like projecting success. Like if you dream it, you can make it. It brought this idea into the mainstream and the book sold 30 million copies and it became this very strange, defining cultural moment. Now, if you were into the secret, if you're a bit of a secret fan, you might also remember that one of the film's experts air quotes was, was this motivational guru named James Arthur Ray. And James was this former telemarketer who transformed himself into a high priced seminar leader. Through the early 2000s, he'd been running these spiritual retreats that attracted hugely ambitious, ultra competitive people looking for an edge. And for a while, James became wildly successful. But that all blew up in 2009 when he hosted a so called spiritual warrior retreat at a property in Sedona, Arizona. And it all went horribly wrong. And what happened is that on the final day of the retreat, he led a sweat lodge ceremony which is basically a tent filled with scorching hot rocks. And it's meant to be this transformative ritual. It's like an ancient American Indian tradition. But he packed it with too many people and there were too many hot rocks. And then he refused to help people who were clearly struggling. And three of these people died. Now, I think this is interesting. I think this story is interesting because the tragedy says a lot about wellness culture, or certainly wellness culture as I see it. I've got to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of crystals and Instagram pictures of green smoothies and the whole belief system that just so often seems to be about selling different flavors of snake oil at extortionate prices to vulnerable people. I'm just, I'm pretty skeptical of it. And keep in mind that today's story, it took place in 2009 when wellness was like this infant version of its current form. This was before Instagram and TikTok turbocharged wellness into the billion dollar monster that it is today. But, but to my way of thinking, the problems in wellness that we'll see in this story here in 2009, they're basically the same that we see today. And the essential problem is that there's something about wellness that just seems to really attract charlatans. And today we're going to look at why following these people can be so dangerous. And to tell me the story is a woman named Amira Hamilton, and she actually owns the retreat center where the sweat lodge was held. And she'll tell us about what she saw that day when, why people died, and how the experience affected her own life, and crucially, what she learned about wellness, what she learned about human behavior and her thoughts on blind obedience. So let's do it. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Amirah Hamilton. Hey, Myra. Welcome to the show.

[Amira Hamilton]

Thank you. Glad to be here.

[Julian Morgans]

I'm glad you're here. It's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've been reading your book, you know, now I've. Now I've got you here in the flesh. It's very exciting for me.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

And so you've got a. You've got a bit of a Dutch accent. And let's. Let's just start with how a woman from the Netherlands happened to be running a spiritual retreat in Arizona. Can you sort of briefly fill in that gap for me?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, in 1995, there was this American man who was traveling the world, and he stopped in the Netherlands, and we met and it clicked. And two years later, I moved to the United States. And we both had similar dreams. We both wanted to work with people and contribute to their journey in personal growth, spiritual growth. And that's how it all started.

[Julian Morgans]

All right, let's sort of segue over to the story. So I want to start with Angel Valley. Can you describe it for me? How did you and your husband, at the time, Michael, come to own this place?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, as I mentioned, kind of, we both had this dream that we wanted to create an environment where people could, say, work on their spiritual journey, development, growth. And we both had this dream that it could be a place. And so we had people who would come for day visits. We had people who would come for individual retreats and stayed overnight. We had groups who came with their facilitator to do a retreat. And. Yeah. So the Angel Valley function, then. We functioned as the host to make all that possible for people. But we were also always very directly involved with the people who would come. So we were not. It was not our ambition to, say, to create a spiritual hotel.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. It wasn't a school camp.

[Amira Hamilton]

We want. No. We wanted to have direct contact with the people who came.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. Okay. And tell me about James Ray. When was the first point? When did he first come into your Life?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, in 2003. That was a year after we had started Angel Valley. If you were approached by somebody who said, I know somebody who is looking for a place to do a vision quest and a sweat lodge with his group, could that be done at our place? And we had this kind of, well, okay, we are open to explore that, which is what we did. And that was a great experience. And then the next. And that was for James Ray. He had a number of different retreats that he organized, and this specific retreat where he had this vision quest and this sweat lodge. Ceremony was. He called that his spiritual warrior retreat, and he did that once a year. So the next year, he came back and he wanted to do the entire retreat with us, which we said kind of, okay, well, okay, great. So we were, let's say, building this retreat center. So we were open to see how we could work and make it a reality for a facilitator who was wanting to do his work.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, his business was really on the up at the time, wasn't it? Because I knew him from the Secret, which was that big boy blockbuster DVD from early 2000s.

[Amira Hamilton]

I'm talking about the time before the Secret, because the secret was in 2006. That is when, not necessarily all of a sudden, because he had been diligently working on that, but he was growing, and then being involved in the Secret was for him. Yeah, he blasted through. Yeah, he became all of a sudden really famous. But that was 2006, and we had been working with him in 2003, 4, and 5 already.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so you known him. You knew him before he was famous, as the cliche goes.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And could you just describe him for me? What was your own personal take on him at that time? What was he like?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, he was very ambitious. He had very distinct things, how he wanted things and how he wanted things done. And we were open to see whether we could accommodate what he wanted. However, from. Especially since 2006, we basically, we wouldn't meet with him because by then he had an office, and we would interact with his staff, and we would only see him kind of operate during the retreat. But then he was so busy with his program and with his people. So actually, we never had much contact with him, which was not the way we want it to work. That was also why eventually in 2009, we had this kind of. This is the last time. We don't want to do this anymore.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Okay. Do you feel as though in some ways the money and the fame went to his head?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, and the Fame was very. He was. Let's say he was lucky for the way he saw it, but to get this fame. But it was. He had been really working on becoming famous, and he had this because he would be bragging about his success. At least that's what we heard, because we have always had minimal contact with him. Even in the first few years, Even then, the contact with him was pretty minimal, and which was disappointing for us because when we had returning facilitators, it was almost like every time they came back, it would become. You would get a closer relationship because you had another time that you were working together and that you were all, you know, putting all the energy you had into making this successful. And with him, that didn't happen. So that was kind of disappointing. And after he became so famous, he was kind of, you know, that is what he was acting out.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Also it's a bit disappointing, I think, because if he's peddling spiritual enlightenment and human connection, and yet he can't connect with the hosts of the place where he's putting on these big events. And if it all seems a bit superficial and extractive, then. Then it just. Like, what are you really selling? I think it.

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, and that was the whole thing. And especially when you look, of course, in retrospect, everything can become clearer. But, you know, we started wondering. We do not feel that this man is walking his. Walking his talk. And when you look at the entire situation, he was definitely not walking his talk.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just also, on a superficial level, when I look at photos of him during that period, he kind of looks like a con man. You know, he's got this deep la tan at all times, these white, white teeth, like a real estate agent. He doesn't look like this enlightened being.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah. What can I say? I know there's quite a few people who have taken this word con man in their mouth, and I. I think it's a little bit of a judgmental term. But was he. Did we experience him as authentic?

[Julian Morgans]

No, I like. I like the way that you're reluctant to just get down in the dirt with me and. And just outwardly judge him. I think that's. That's a nice quality. It's. It's impressive. Yeah. But I guess I've seen some photos of him and I was like, I don't know. I don't trust him. I wouldn't trust him.

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, the interesting thing was that we were not deeply into what he was teaching either. It just didn't speak to us. We have never attended one of his seminars. And yes, of course, we had seen him speak in the Secret because. Yeah. Who has not seen the Secret? But, yeah, it was huge. Yeah, it was huge. But, you know, and his approach, personally, both Michael and I had this kind of. We would not feel attracted to attend one of his seminars. But of course, if you have a retreat center, you do not necessarily have to be really deeply into what a person is teaching as long as it does not disagree. And we felt that over the years, it started to disagree.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about the Sort of disagreement thing. Like, it feels as though in 2009, you know, obviously I'm reading your book. By 2009, it felt like this was going to be the last year that you guys were going to work together. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

[Amira Hamilton]

We felt that there were a number of situations that had happened over the years, and one of them was a financial thing. When he decided to raise his fees. And then we found out that his participants were not aware that even with the raised fees, that his fee did not include the fee for Angel Valley. That created conflict because people had not realized that. And then people come to us and say, hey, you should take. You cannot charge us. And we had to scan. Well, wait a minute. So that was one thing that we said. We do not want to work this way. And then there were a number of things, you know, what he demanded. We did our best to accommodate it, but it became just more than we were willing to do.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amira Hamilton]

And then during the retreat, certain things happened that we so disagreed with, that we had this kind of. During this particular retreat in 2009, a number of things happened. And. And then I had this kind of. I'm not going to bring this up because this is the last time. This is the last time. This is the last time.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah. And it feels like the sweat lodge disaster happened right at the very end. You know, it was kind of like the final straw after an already pretty frustrating period of time.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Before we. Before we get into sweat lodges, can just. For lots of people who are listening and probably have no idea what a sweat lodge is. Can you just kind of paint a picture for me?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, a sweat load ceremony is a ceremony where people are inside a structure where hot stones are being brought in and people sweat. And the whole. During that process, people pray, people sing, people share. Different things are being done by the person who is leading the ceremony. And then that has an effect on people being in the dark, being in the heat. That has an effect on people that is very cleansing. That can be very mind altering. And it's beautiful. And it is type of ceremony that has been done in all kinds of cultures all over the world through the ages. So. And. But oftentimes in our days, people hold a little bit. Stick a little bit to the. To, let's say, rules that the Native Americans do in their sweat lodge ceremonies. They also call it sweat lodge, which means that you do so many rounds where you bring a number of stones in, and then there is a break. And in the Native American tradition, they do four rounds, and the number of stones that are being brought in is usually four, five maybe. And the number of people inside the sweat lodge is usually somewhere 15, maybe 20, maybe less, maybe a few more, but not anymore.

[Julian Morgans]

So it's small and intimate. That's the idea.

[Amira Hamilton]

It's small and intimate. It is beautiful. It can be very powerful. Talking about a spiritual experience, it can be a very spiritual experience. Yeah. It's a beautiful ceremony.

[Julian Morgans]

Is there meant to be a kind of endurance element to it? Like, is it supposed to be this arduous physical experience?

[Amira Hamilton]

No, no. Even though, of course, when people are in the dark, some people have difficulty to be in the dark, some people have difficulty to be in the heat. So you may have an uncomfortable moment. But for example, during sweat lodges that I have attended, when you're getting warm, you lay down, because lower to the ground, it's cooler. And when you have a sweat lodge that has fabric or whatever, sometimes the bottom can be opened even. So is it an endurance test, as this one kind of turned out? Absolutely not. It's not meant to be that way. Can a person in a sweat lodge ceremony have an uncomfortable moment? Yes, but what's uncomfortable? Uncomfortable should never be getting to a level where it's getting dangerous.

[Julian Morgans]

So tell me a little bit about the preparation for this particular sweat lodge, because I understand James Ray made it clear that he wanted big stones, lots of stones, red hot, and he wanted extra padding on the top to really retain the heat. Can you just tell me a bit about the preparation?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, the preparation. The preparation was most influenced by the size of the sweat lodge because James had groups of 60 people, and that is an unusual size for a sweat lodge. And we tried to talk him into, hey, do two ceremonies. Two ceremonies, back to back. No, Absolutely no. Well, then what if we built two lodges that you and you have somebody else doing? No, absolutely not. He wanted everything in one lodge, and he wanted to do one thing, ceremony, not two. And we had this kind of. Well, so we found somebody who had built larger ceremonies lodges before, because sometimes there is a larger gathering. It's possible, it's doable, but it's not so easy to make. So that is regarding the preparation. Now you say the stones. The stones. That is not. That is. That's just what happens during the ceremony. And what James Ray did, he did not do four rounds, which is usual. He did eight rounds, and he did not do four or five stones per round. He did. What did he do? Eight stones per round, and then he did eight rounds. So he had a total of 60 stones in there. I mean, that was completely over the top, but that was something. Yeah, yeah, it happened.

[Julian Morgans]

Were there concerns when he did he originally let you know of this plan? Was he like, here we're going to do just double everything, double the stones, double the duration? And did you have concerns?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, I did not know that he was going to do eight rounds. However, it was one of the reasons that in those previous years he had shown that he was just going further and further out. So, yes, he ordered many stones to be ready to be heated and he had this kind of, well, you're not going to need that many stones. You're not going to use them all, are you? But, well, okay, James was the type of person you asked me earlier, you know, what type of person was he? He was not a person who liked to hear, no.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey everyone, we're going to take a quick ad break here, but stick around because we'll be right back with more.

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[Amira Hamilton]

It's.

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[Julian Morgans]

So take me, take me to the day itself. How did that day start for you?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, the day itself, the evening before, we had a vision quest. And this may be nice to mention that because people have also commented on that. Now, vision quest is also one of these terms that is taken out of the Native American tradition. And that is how James Ray called it. We have always called it. The vision quest is really very nice, nice thing. A real vision quest is a number of days, but he did two nights and one full day. And the idea of a vision quest is that people go out in nature, spend time by themselves without food, and then come back, which can be a very beautiful experience. So on the day of the sweat lodge, so they would come back from the vision quest and they would have a really nice big breakfast. And really, you know, we really put effort into kind of, yay, you made it. And so, and have a very, very, very nice big breakfast. And then they would have their morning session. And then in the afternoon, at least the last couple of years, it was in the afternoon, they would have the sweat lodge ceremony. Earlier the first few years, he did the sweat lodge ceremony in the evening in the dark. But in these later years, he did it in the afternoon.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, okay. All right. And then just keep going, you know, what happened next?

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, so we had everything prepared. I was checking on everything. I was checking on all the staff. Was everybody in place and were the people who were going to do the fire. Was everything all right there? So I was, you know, I moved around as I usually did in my golf cart and checking on everything. Busy, busy and just making sure that everything was fine. Also trusting that James Ray, as precise as he was, would also have checked or have his staff checked whether everything was according to the way he wanted things done. Around the sweat lodge, there was a big tent with all kinds of drinks and there were towels and there were. For after the sweat lodge, if they would come out and they would find two towels per person. So then I saw them enter the sweat lodge and they were kind of excited. They did first a little ceremony during the retreat. They had made little lists of things that they were issues in their life. And so James Ray wanted them to burn these as a kind of a ritual. Okay.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, Nice.

[Amira Hamilton]

Okay. Okay. And then they entered the sweat lodge and then it started.

[Julian Morgans]

Can I ask just quickly, were you close enough to see their faces when they were going in? Did you make eye contact with any of them?

[Amira Hamilton]

No, no, no. I was at a distance. And actually it was quite interesting because I took some photos and I had this kind of, why am I taking these photos? I mean, what can I do with them putting on the website? No, we are done with James Ray. What for? Well, later on these photos were used in court. But when I took the photos, it was kind of. It was a very strange, strange feeling, kind of, what am I doing here?

[Julian Morgans]

And these photos depicted from a distance. I imagine it's mostly landscape and just a few people shuffling into the tent.

[Amira Hamilton]

And see a few people seeing a long line of people waiting to enter the svartaj. Anyway, so then they were in there and I came closer and he had. Members of his team were standing around the sweat lodge kind of, you know. Yeah, they call it. They call it holding space. Okay, nice, nice. Intention to hold space and to send out prayers that everything may be beneficial for everybody. And. Yeah, and then he started doing his thing and I was doing some other things around on the property. And at certain point I came back there and it was after a couple of rounds. And then one of our staff, she had been sitting there all the time and she just says, amira, there is something wrong. There is something really wrong there. And she had heard that people said that somebody was unconscious and that James Ray said, oh, we'll take care of that after this round. We have one more round to go and then we'll take care of that. They will be fine.

[Julian Morgans]

God, yeah, that's reckless.

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, when I heard that staff member and the way she was upset and everything that she had picked up and heard and felt, I was kind of, there is something wrong here. There is something really wrong here. And then in the meantime, I had also seen that some people had come out in between and they were not in good shape. And then at some point, the ceremony was over, and then they started coming out. Well, Julian, you have never seen a chaos like that. It was just. It was horrible. People falling, people throwing up, people not being able to stand, people blocking somebody else's way because they couldn't walk. It was really disastrous. And of course, the sweat lodge had just a small opening so they could only come out one by one. Yeah. And James, he had been sitting by the entrance just next to the door, and so he was the first who came out. But then all these other people. There was 56 people in there. And, you know, they all had to come out one by one. Have us.

[Julian Morgans]

How was James Ray responding? So you were obviously pretty worried about everyone coming out. Did it seem like he was concerned?

[Amira Hamilton]

No, no, he was. He was just standing there and doing nothing. And I had this kind of. My gosh. I mean, I started helping people who needed help, and whoever was around to help was helping people, and whoever was feeling a little better was helping somebody else. And it was utter chaos. It was utter chaos.

[Julian Morgans]

How do you help in a situation like that? What can you do?

[Amira Hamilton]

For example, seating them on a chair, sit down, calming them down, giving them something to drink, wiping their face, bringing them a towel. I mean, simple things. And then one person is okay. And then you run to the next person who seems not okay. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Were most people not okay?

[Amira Hamilton]

There were a lot of people not okay. There were a lot of people not okay.

[Julian Morgans]

And what had happened, it was basically like their brains had been cooked. It was a sort of heat stroke.

[Amira Hamilton]

Version of sort of. It was complete heatstroke.

[Julian Morgans]

It was heat stroke. Okay.

[Amira Hamilton]

It was heat stroke. It was. You know, at that moment, I did not fully realize, you know, when people are. I knew it was the heat, but that it was. That it has taken on such shape. That was just unimaginable.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, kind of.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah. Yeah. So all in all. Yeah. The whole reason why people felt bad and why eventually also the people died because we hadn't gotten to. That was heatstroke. Too long, too hot. And heat stroke happens when the body temperature goes over 40 degrees. Heat exhaustion is when the body temperature is high but still below 104Fahrenheit. Or you doing Celsius in Australia.

[Julian Morgans]

We like Celsius. Yeah. But you can probably do celsius as well.

[Amira Hamilton]

42. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 42.

[Julian Morgans]

So when it is.

[Amira Hamilton]

They call it heat exhaustion. When it is under 42.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, got it.

[Amira Hamilton]

Which is dangerous. But, you know, but when it's over 42, that is very dangerous. And that can easily be fatal. And that is exactly what happened.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Wow. Isn't it amazing? What do they call it? Homeostasis. If you sort of step outside the boundaries of this sort of narrow band, you're. You get hyper hypothermia or you get heat stroke and it's.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, one of the things that happens is that you lose consciousness. So at a certain stage you cannot act rational anymore. So there comes a point that you. That a person who has heat exhaustion because. Does not do what they should know they should do. For example, leaving that lodge, leaving that space, you know?

[Julian Morgans]

Yes.

[Amira Hamilton]

When you're beyond a certain point, you can't do that anymore.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, let's zoom in on that for a moment because I think that is a really interesting. Because there's a social dynamic that's happening here as well.

[Amira Hamilton]

Exactly, exactly. And that is also what has. And that is, I think, one of the learning points from this. The people who were in there, they were all very motivated people. Let's put it. People riding on the wave of the ambition of James Ray were ambitious people themselves too. There's nothing wrong, per se, with ambitious people, but you have to be. Have to watch it. Where does your ambition lead you? Into danger right now? In this particular case, the people had paid a lot of money for this retreat. Then they have the final. The ultimate thing of the retreat, the sweat lodge ceremony. They don't feel well. But do you give up?

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, that's right.

[Amira Hamilton]

You don't quit, do you? Number one, what do you think about yourself when you quit? Among ambitious people, you are a loser. You don't want to be a loser, do you? Apart from what James Ray would say. But, you know, when you have invested so much, you want to complete it. I have even realized I might have been at risk myself because I could also maybe not listen to myself and push myself too far.

[Julian Morgans]

So you put it down to competitiveness and ambition rather than, for example, no one wants to defy the leader. Breaking the rules seemed socially unacceptable.

[Amira Hamilton]

That was part of it. That was part of it. But also for themselves.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, right.

[Amira Hamilton]

And I. You, you. You can put all the blame on James Ray, but, you know, if. If you are participating in something and you're aware that you have your ambition sitting there.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Amira Hamilton]

And you don't want to give up. You know, there's fine lines there.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. I think I would struggle with that. I know I would. If I'd been in that tent, I'd start with that.

[Amira Hamilton]

Right, right.

[Julian Morgans]

But I think. I think there's this other thing where everyone just always assumes, in a group setting, everyone always assumes that someone else is in charge. That like, oh, there's one of the people here is an adult who has dealt with the dangers and is in charge there. They're going to look after us. And I don't know, to sort of step outside the herd seems hard. You don't want to be that person.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah. And I think that kind of energy, the way you describe that was very strong among the James Ray people, among his followers. Kind of, you know, they were go getters. They were not going to disappoint themselves. They were not going to disappoint each other. They were not going to disappoint James Ray. They were going to show that they could do it.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Amira Hamilton]

So, yeah, I think that is another one of these points that we should all learn from it. Never give your power away to somebody else who thinks what's best, who thinks. Who knows what's best for you.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah. And never, never ignore your own instincts like that.

[Amira Hamilton]

Never ignore your own intuition and never ignore your own sense of kind of. This does not feel right. And that was a huge thing. I think that is a huge takeaway from this whole situation that no matter what you do, no matter what teacher you have or no matter what teacher or preacher or doctor or whoever, don't give your power away. You know, trust that your intuition knows its best for what's for you.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, you weren't in the sweat lodge that day, but do you feel like in some ways that you ignored your own intuition?

[Amira Hamilton]

No, not really. Because this could all be done right. What actually happened didn't need to happen. It didn't need to be taken to that level of heat and that level of exhaustion and that level of endurance. It didn't need to do that.

[Julian Morgans]

There was no point.

[Amira Hamilton]

There's no point. That's ego.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah. It brings to mind, I mean, the ice, you know, the ice bath challenge is pretty popular right now, and for a lot of people, it represents. It's not about some kind of mindfulness exercise. It just represents endurance and how hard can you go? How long can you go? I'm sure it appeals to the same personality type for the same reasons.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, yeah. I am not doing. You're not doing icebox, the cold thing, but I know people who do it and I know people who really, really benefit from it. And, you know, but also any kind of thing that takes you beyond your regular limits can be Working or it can be dangerous. Yeah, you know.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Amira Hamilton]

Well said. There's a fine mind.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, we're going to take a quick ad break, but please stick around because we'll be right back with more what it was like.

[Amira Hamilton]

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[Julian Morgans]

Let's take this back to the. The chaos outside the sweat lodge. So I'm imagining that you're laying people out on the ground and some are sitting and some are. You were. You. I imagine you were just running around, you were trying your best.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, yeah. And then what happened was that the woman who was part of the. Who was doing together with her husband, the stones in the fire, she went inside the sweat lodge to check whether everybody was out and it was not. There were still people in there and she had. Oh, my God. So then she lifted the side and they pulled those people out. But I had not initially noticed that. But I heard later, I reconstructed later what exactly she did and what then happened. But I did see a bunch of people over there together taking care of something, whatever they did. Well, as it turned out, they pulled two people out and they started doing breathing, resuscitation, cpr, resuscitation. And evidently there was one of the participants, she was a medical doctor, so she was leading that. But they were unconscious and it didn't work, didn't help. And then the same woman, the wife of the fire tender, she ran to one of the houses where the telephone was. And in the meantime, I had also said, this is beyond control. So I also ran to the phone, but she was just before me. But, you know, and so we called 911. When the paramedics came, they took those two people that were unconscious to the hospital. And in the hospital they found that they had already died. And I'm sure, I'm sure that they died in the lodge. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Could you tell me who those people were?

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah. Kirby Brown and James Shore.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay. And they were both. I think Kirby was 38. Is that right?

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, they were. They were around. Yeah. And he. And James was 40 or so. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, so these are people in the prime of their life. You know, pretty young, lots to live for.

[Amira Hamilton]

Young and enthusiastic and strong. She was an avid surfer, and she was. You know, people were in the prime of their life.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[Amira Hamilton]

That's so sad.

[Julian Morgans]

He had kids, didn't he?

[Amira Hamilton]

He had three kids. Yeah. And then there was this other woman. She was also unconscious, and they. Eventually there were helicopters coming in, and they took her and they took her to Flagstaff, to the hospital, and she was unconscious, and she died a week later of organ failure. But, you know, and she. Of the three people, she was the one whom I knew because Kirby and James, I didn't know who they were. I didn't know what they looked like. I first saw them when there were pictures on the Internet. It was weird. Everything was so. Was so weird. So out. Totally out of proportion.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Yeah. This feels like such an anomalous moment in your life. You know, you've been running this business for a long time, and then just this. What even is this? How do you respond to this? Yeah, I imagine it would have. Would have been really like, what am I in.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

How was the rest of the group responding? Like, this was meant to be a triumphant moment for all of them, and they've just accidentally stumbled into this tragedy.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah. Well, number one, there were about 20 people that were taken to the hospital. It was not only sold for treatment, but most of them could go, could come back that evening. And only, I think there were six that stayed in the hospital, and the rest was coming back. How was the rest of the group responding? Well, there was an energy of kind of. This was not what they had expected. And then the police ordered them to get all together in the dining room. And by that time, I knew that two people had died. And at some point that would have to be told to them. But the police told me that they were going to tell people. And I was thinking, no, James Ray is going to tell them. But James Ray was nowhere to be found. Well, afterwards, I found out that for a couple of hours, the police held him in a police car and tried to see. The police didn't understand what happened, so they tried to figure out what has happened here. Is this a. A crime scene or is this a. You remember that situation that happened in. Where was it? In Guyana, where there was a big suicide. Jonestown.

[Julian Morgans]

They thought it Was like a mass suicide cult situation.

[Amira Hamilton]

Is this a mass suicide cult situation or what's going on here?

[Julian Morgans]

Right, yeah. So they were just going to hold. They thought. Yeah, yeah, just hold the guru until we figure out what's happened.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the first they held him, but then eventually they, they found no reason to hold him. But so, so I was expecting that as soon as he was available he would come to his people, but he didn't. And I was there and a few of our staff and yeah, I was kind of, oh, my God, we have to tell these people that two of them have died in this. Oh, this is just. This is just horrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

That's not part of your remit at all.

[Amira Hamilton]

So then eventually, yes, they did come in and they told the group. While the group was kind of just, you know, some cry, the group was just flat. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

I'm guessing they were pretty close by that point as well. So they knew the people who had died.

[Amira Hamilton]

Oh, they did? Oh, yeah. I didn't.

[Julian Morgans]

You didn't. But they looked at each other and they were like, oh, you know, Kirby, she's gone.

[Amira Hamilton]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The people in the group, the followers of James group were very. It was very tight knitted community because a lot of them had been together in previous retreats because the spiritual warrior retreat was actually the culmination of a number of retreats.

[Julian Morgans]

Ah, that's so sad.

[Amira Hamilton]

Oh, God.

[Julian Morgans]

All right, so I want to, I want to move through the next kind of beats in this story kind of fast because I want to get to some sort of broader learnings here. But I understand the next few weeks were a whirlwind. The sweat lodge was a crime scene. The news became interested in the story. Just take me through some of those moments.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, well, the crime scene situation did not last too long because we were able to paint a picture that was clear enough for the police to start somewhere with their investigation. We got permission to start cleaning up. So we dismantled the sweat lodge and we wanted to do that in a ceremonial way with respect and in a very reflective mode of connecting with those who had died and with those who were still in the hospital. So rather than telling our staff to take that whole thing down, we did it in a very ceremonial way. We took everything off. We burned the. You know, a sweat lodge is made with big willow branches. And so we took all the willow branches down, cut them in pieces and burned them. A sweat lodge traditionally should not have any mechanical things, so no nails and things like that so a sweat lodge is tied together with pieces of rope. So we undid all the ropes. So we did everything with a lot of respect. And the people. The sweat lodge happened on the last full day of their retreat and some of the people were leaving Saturday. But we had offered, because this was our last time with James Ray, we had offered that people could spend another day if they wanted to. So we took the sweat lodge down with those who stayed, I think some 25 people who stayed another night. And we took them together with them, which was beautiful because it was also healing for their process because everybody was struggling. Everybody was in an emotional struggle of grief and not understanding and processing and also processing the disappointment in James Ray because here you have somebody that you admire, that you believe in, that you take a lot of teachings from, because you think that's benefiting you. And then this is what happens, and then this is how he behaves. So for some people, was it a deep process to process, to come to terms with? Yeah. Their hero had fallen off his pedestal.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. Immediately. He completely failed the leadership test at the. Just the first sign of trouble.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

And I imagine that that process of healing or that process of coming to terms with what had happened must have got hard when. When the story became national news. You know, like, attention doesn't make that easy.

[Amira Hamilton]

It was. That was really hard because then the most crazy things, crazy things were being said and were being thrown out in the public. And then you. Things were all looked at from one angle because. Yeah, the whole world said, how could this happen? Yeah, how could this happen? Well, so we also had to figure out, how could this happen?

[Julian Morgans]

Did James Ray ever make a public statement to address that question?

[Amira Hamilton]

No, not really. Not really, no, no, other than later during, when he had to appear in court. You know, how could it happen? Well, it was because we built a faulty sweat lod because we had poison in the ground. And so people had been poisoned by the poison that we put in the ground. And boy, we did everything as environmentally clean as possible. We did not use any pesticides or any of that. But, you know, so they tried all kinds of things to find reasons how it could happen in ways that were kind of ridiculous. But, you know, the publicity was difficult because, you know, there was so much judgment and there was so much judgment based on looking at it from just specific angles. And, you know, also then people started to say everything in the self help industry. I don't like that word, but industry.

[Julian Morgans]

Is a dirty word.

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, kind of, yeah. But anything in the Self help world is kind of, wow, that's bad. And that's. Well, you know. No, not everything in the self help world is bad now. And then, of course, what started to complicate things was all these lawsuits and all these things.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. So you guys got targeted with 10. Was it 10 lawsuits?

[Amira Hamilton]

10 people who did a lawsuit? Yeah, there were a bunch of lawsuits. Yes. And here you come. Okay. They had been educated, by the way I explained it is they have been educated by James Ray. You have to go after money. And they knew that by themselves already because otherwise they would not have been able to afford to participate in his expensive retreats. So they. Well, let's be honest.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, yeah, yeah, these people were perfectly primed to go after you.

[Amira Hamilton]

Right, right. Which they did. And yeah, that was very unpleasant.

[Julian Morgans]

So I understand that some of these people were the grieving family members of those who had died, but others were just, just. They felt personally aggrieved because they happened to be there and they were otherwise fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a hierarchy of victimhood here, and it feels to me like not everyone deserved to call themselves a victim.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah. So that's kind of finding that you have lawsuits by people who have not even been gone to the hospital for treatment, you know, because they felt kind of, you know, why do they lawsuit? Because an attorney think that there's some money to be gotten there.

[Julian Morgans]

And these attorneys thought that there was money to be gotten there because you had, I'm guessing, what's it called? Public. Public indemnity insurance. Public insurance.

[Amira Hamilton]

We had. We had an insurance for liability. A liability insurance.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay.

[Amira Hamilton]

But that was all we had, so that was all there was to gain. But initially, of course, the lawsuits first went to James Ray. So first they had filed lawsuits against us, but they first had all their focus on the lawsuits they had against James Ray. But attorneys say, okay, where can you get some money? Well, okay, let's go after the Hamiltons because do they have a liability insurance? They don't care whether you have a liability insurance or not. One of the attorneys said, okay, when we are done, we will have taken that property.

[Julian Morgans]

Oh, great. How nice.

[Amira Hamilton]

How nice. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

So did you end up bankrupt?

[Amira Hamilton]

Close, close. Because it has been years that we had to. That we suffered from it. Yes, yes. But we did survive it.

[Julian Morgans]

But it would have just absorbed so much of your precious life. I think five years or something is a long time to be wrapped up in other people's stuff.

[Amira Hamilton]

It did. Yeah, it did.

[Julian Morgans]

And all you did was host this event. You didn't put on the sweat lodge. It wasn't. Wasn't your idea.

[Amira Hamilton]

No, but we allowed it.

[Julian Morgans]

Barely. It sounded like, fairly.

[Amira Hamilton]

I know.

[Julian Morgans]

I don't know. Reluctant. Reluctant permission.

[Amira Hamilton]

But the good thing is we had lawsuits. But these were all civil lawsuits. They were just going after money.

[Julian Morgans]

Okay, great.

[Amira Hamilton]

We have not been criminally accused of anything. The police, the sheriffs, they saw very soon that we were not criminally involved. So the criminal court case with James Ray, that was a different animal. That was a nightmare for us because we were called in as witnesses. But. And that was painful because it was such a showcase of. For James Ray not to take responsibility for what happened and trying to make us responsible for it and do that in ways that just very, very, very clever attorneys manipulate you into or try to manipulate you into saying something that they can catch you on.

[Julian Morgans]

Gross.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah, yeah. Gross. Yeah, yeah. It was a nightmare. It was an absolute nightmare. However, it was a nightmare to experience emotionally. That was challenging. But we were not accused, you know.

[Julian Morgans]

So I guess that's a silver lining there. But still.

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, interestingly, when the verdict came, I did feel relief because it vindicated us. He got his verdict, he got sentenced. So I realized that even though I knew we were not guilty of anything, there was still something inside that. When I heard that the judge say. Pronounced that this was his sentence, kind of that, okay, you know, we are being free now.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah. That must have felt good.

[Amira Hamilton]

Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

I mean, for you, did that feel like the end of the story?

[Amira Hamilton]

You know, something like that. There is never a full end to that. Because what you can learn from a situation like that has. Like, what happened had so many layers that, you know, that learning kind of continues, maybe even till today. I mean, you know, how. How to make it so that you do get the most out of it, that you learn the most out of it, that mankind learns the most out of it. Because. Why are we talking about it?

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, well, we're talking about it because, first and foremost, I think it's interesting. I think it says some really interesting things about the sort of capitalist approach to wellness and spiritualism. I think it says a lot about our instincts for following one another and obeying command and authority figures. I mean, I'll throw it back to you. Why are we talking about this? Why are you talking about this, exactly?

[Amira Hamilton]

Some people have asked me, are you willing to go back into that nasty situation?

[Julian Morgans]

So why are you willing?

[Amira Hamilton]

Because I have such a strong belief that we are here to learn and to grow and that never anything happens just by accident or Just randomly. So evidently there is more to be learned for me or for whoever is hearing this. There is more to be learned from this situation. And the more that is learned from this situation, the more those who died are being honored because they did not intentionally give their life for that reason. However, if there is a benefit coming out of this that benefits others, then it makes more sense for me.

[Julian Morgans]

I'm glad you are. And I think there's a learning here that we haven't touched on yet that I'm really curious about. And that is. So before, when I was, I was actually talking to my dad and I told my dad that I was about to talk to you, and he wanted to know what the story was. And I, I gave him a brief synopsis and he said, God, how do you, how do you come back from that? You know, how do you move past it? How does it not just suck out all of the joy from your life for every year afterwards? And, and that is the question that I've got for you is, is, is how do you find happiness again after you've lived through some traumas like this? Because I understand it's not the first time that a really bad things happen to you. What have you learned about that?

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, ultimately, I think all these situations that come on our path that are difficult contributes to a deeper understanding of life, if we are willing to look at it. Because if we go past it, if we want to shove it under the carpet, then we do not benefit from it. But if we are willing to face it and do something with it and come to a point where we are willing to look at the situation from different angles. For example, I have had a moment that I was so angry with James Ray. I mean, you know, I could have flown him in the face, so to speak. But how do I get past my anger and how do I say, okay, as a facilitator? What can a facilitator learn from a situation like that? When a facilitator is getting too much in their ego because of the money part or because of the power part, because of whatever blindness they have in their perspective, you can start walking a very dangerous road. So facilitators can also. It is not only participants who can. Participants in the self help or wherever can learn from this, but the facilitator, teacher, preacher, doctor, whatever can learn from this if you're willing to look at where is the danger part, where, where becomes it all of a sudden dangerous to slide off the path. So we have to find a way. And I think that everything that comes on our path, everything that happens, is there to learn and to grow. I said that earlier, but I really, really, truly mean that. And there is never an end to that. And the ultimate reason of that learning and growing, well, you know, it's fulfilling that journey that we had embarked upon when we came to this planet.

[Julian Morgans]

Wow, that's big. So, I mean, ultimately, you're suggesting that the meaning that you've superimposed over this is that it's an opportunity to learn. But then when you zoom out, the whole point of life is to learn. And then ultimately, we were here only in the first place, ever to just come in and here and learn a bunch of lessons before we go on to the next. Whatever the hell in the next chapter is. So I guess you'd say that it. That your meaning of life as you see it is to just. It's to learn, it's to experience, and it's to grow.

[Amira Hamilton]

Right, right, right. No, I think every experience can be. Is an invitation to make it into something that can enrich our life. And that's why we are here. And if we don't, I feel that as a waste. And I am committed to not waste my life, See? So even if it's difficult, well, then, then so be it. And it's difficult, then. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

Amara, I think that's beautiful. I think you've wrapped this up in such a nice message, and I think I'm going to walk away from this feeling better about the darkness in the world.

[Amira Hamilton]

Well, that's exactly why I believe that it's so important that we work on ourselves, that we learn to listen to ourselves, that we learn to deal with things that come on our path that we do not expect or that forces us to look at something in a little bit of a Different. From a different angle that we as humans go on this planet. So how do you get there? Practice, practice, practice listening again and again and again. And then you think you. You are. You have come some distance, and then something happens, and there you go, flat on your face. And, you know. And so, like in this particular case, James Ray. Well, he went flat on his face with this situation. Yeah, he did. But then it is up to him what he then does with it in his life to evolve as a human being.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, he didn't take on that challenge very eloquently, I don't think.

[Amira Hamilton]

I have never spoken with him again. So the only time that I saw him after that evening at the sweat lodge was in the courthouse. That is when I saw him But I have never spoken with him anymore, not afterwards.

[Julian Morgans]

The only thing he served a couple of years.

[Amira Hamilton]

He served two years and a little less because he was released a little early. But what he did with that experience, the only thing that I can know is that he, let's say, continue doing business, but not at the same scale that he did. But what he shares during that process about whether he owned the responsibility for what happened, that has never been able to be very convincing to me.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't look to me like he did much self reflection. And then he died earlier this year.

[Amira Hamilton]

He died earlier this year? Yeah. Yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

You have such a beautiful philosophy, such a. Such a good approach to life and death, I think. And I really, I've found this quite inspiring.

[Amira Hamilton]

Thank you. Well, and I think that is what I have learned through the situations that have occurred in my life, including this sweat lodge situation. Because for some reason it's very fascinating that we humans, when everything goes fine, we just start taking things for granted and we don't do much. And then something tragic happened, something traumatic happened, and all of a sudden then we have to gather everything we have together to do something with it. And either we do, we have free will. Either we do or we don't. And for me, having encountered a couple of difficult things has helped me a lot to drop judgments and to, let's say, apply a little bit more wisdom.

[Julian Morgans]

I think you're applying it liberally. Myra, thank you so much for joining me, telling me your story. It's been amazing.

[Amira Hamilton]

You're welcome. It was a pleasure sharing this and I hope that you and whoever is listening to it will find benefit in what they heard.

[Julian Morgans]

Thanks for joining me today. If you'd like to learn a bit more about the Sedona sweat lodge tragedy, or if you'd just like to spend a bit more time with Amira, she's. She's actually written about her experience. She wrote a book called Transformation at Angel Valley and she's got a new book on the way. The old one and the new one. They are currently found on Amazon and I'll put a link in the show. Notes. Today's episode was produced by Rachel Tuffery. It was mixed by Jimmy Saunders, who also did our theme music. Our cover art is by Rich Akers. Ellie Dickey is our intern. And this whole thing has been a super ill production.

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[Amira Hamilton]

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[Julian Morgans]

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[Julian Morgans]

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