Podcast Title: What It Was Like
Host: Julian Morgans
Episode: What Happens When Religious Leaders Take Magic Mushrooms?
Release Date: June 19, 2025
Producer: Superreal

Introduction

In this compelling episode of What It Was Like, host Julian Morgans delves into an intriguing intersection of faith and psychedelics. The episode explores a decade-old study conducted by researchers at Johns Hopkins University, which investigated the effects of psilocybin—commonly found in magic mushrooms—on religious leaders across various faiths. Julian interviews Sugra Ahmed, a prominent figure in the British Muslim community, who participated in this groundbreaking study. Together, they unravel how psilocybin altered Sugra’s spiritual perceptions and challenged traditional religious paradigms.

Background of the Study

Julian begins by outlining the origins of the study, initiated by two researchers at Johns Hopkins University approximately ten years prior. Their objective was to examine whether psychedelics could deepen the spiritual experiences of individuals already entrenched in spiritual practices. The study enlisted over 30 religious leaders, encompassing Catholic priests, rabbis, a Muslim, and Zen Buddhists. Remarkably, 96% of participants rated their first psilocybin experience among the top five most spiritually significant moments of their lives.

Julian Morgans [04:00]: "96% of them rated their first encounter with psilocybin as being among the top five most spiritually significant experiences of their lives."

Sugra Ahmed’s Background and Motives

Sugra Ahmed shares her journey leading up to the study. At the time of enrollment, she was serving as the Associate Dean for Religious Life at Stanford University in Palo Alto, having previously held a fellowship at Yale and led the Islamic Society of Britain—the first woman to do so. Her motivation to participate stemmed from a desire to bridge her spiritual leadership with personal growth, despite the inherent contradictions between her faith’s prohibitions against intoxicants and the study’s use of psilocybin.

Sugra Ahmed [06:30]: "I felt like doing something like that might pull up the bridge from behind me for, for other women, that was a concern."

Enrollment Process

Sugra recounts how she was introduced to the study through a trusted friend who recognized the need for diverse representation, particularly from Muslim leaders. Despite initial reservations—given Islam's clear stance against substance use—Sugra's discussions with Islamic theologians led her to view psilocybin as a catalyst for unveiling and clearing the mind, aligning with Quranic teachings about maintaining a clear consciousness.

Sugra Ahmed [08:00]: "Plant medicine and in this case psilocybin particularly mushrooms, unveil the mind. They clear your mind, they diminish all the veils between you and yourself."

Testing and Preparation

Before participating, Sugra underwent extensive psychometric and physical evaluations to ensure she was fit for the high-dose sessions and psychedelically naive. The testing phase was intensive, involving numerous questionnaires to gauge her spiritual history and mental health.

Julian Morgans [11:25]: "What were the tests? I'm curious."

Sugra Ahmed [11:27]: "They really want to get a sense of your...your family history. And they go quite far back several generations."

The Psychedelic Experience

First Dose: Love

During her first high-dose session, Sugra experienced a profound theme of love. She visualized a transcendent space where she connected with the hearts of loved ones, recognizing the burdens of pain and trauma they carried. This experience reshaped her understanding of love as a primary guiding force over intellectual reasoning.

Sugra Ahmed [29:19]: "Actually, for me, it was that love is the heart, is the primary brain...if we are to flourish, we need to make the heart our primary brain."

She described a montage of moments where she placed her hand on the hearts of family members, each interaction deepening her empathy and awe for their struggles.

Sugra Ahmed [34:37]: "I placed my hand on their heart, and my heart would connect with theirs from a distance."

Second Dose: The Womb

Her second session centered around the theme of the womb, symbolizing the origin of all creation. Sugra felt an intense reverence for the role of women in birthing and sustaining life, extending her appreciation to all forms of existence. This vision linked the womb to divine mercy and questioned patriarchal structures within organized religions.

Sugra Ahmed [46:28]: "The womb becomes this really huge, iconic theme. It's everything. It's all of existence."

She articulated a powerful critique of patriarchy, emphasizing that women's roles transcend mere procreation and highlighting the societal and religious constraints imposed on women.

Sugra Ahmed [54:54]: "I have such a low tolerance now for misogyny and patriarchy. I just can't even tolerate a little bit."

Integration and Aftermath

Post-experience, Sugra reflects on the challenges of integrating these profound insights into her daily life. She discusses the emotional toll and the necessity of reconciling transformative internal experiences with an unchanged external world.

Julian Morgans [40:12]: "Did you suddenly feel sold on the virtues of psychedelics?"

Sugra Ahmed [40:12]: "I had a mind-blowing, life-changing experience. I would not switch it out for anything."

She emphasizes that while psilocybin was transformative for her, it isn't a universal solution and must be approached with careful intention and professional support.

Impact on Views on Organized Religion

Sugra's experiences with psilocybin led her to critically assess organized religion. She expresses dissatisfaction with patriarchal and literal interpretations of religious texts, advocating for a more contextualized and evolved theological understanding.

Sugra Ahmed [57:07]: "I am so very, very grateful for her [the experience]."

Her journey underscores the potential for psychedelics to challenge and transform entrenched religious beliefs, fostering a more personal and less institutionalized spirituality.

Future Work and Rouhani

Inspired by her experiences, Sugra is spearheading an initiative named Rouhani. This project aims to educate and build communities around spiritually and culturally sensitive programming related to psychedelics, particularly within Muslim contexts. She envisions Rouhani as a platform to document historical and contemporary experiences, advocating for a nuanced understanding of plant medicine in Islamic tradition.

Sugra Ahmed [69:58]: "We're trying to help people understand that...where would that take us?"

Conclusion

This episode provides a profound exploration of how psilocybin can influence and transform the spiritual lives of religious leaders. Through Sugra Ahmed’s candid recounting, listeners gain insight into the delicate balance between faith and modern therapeutic practices. The discussion highlights the potential for psychedelics to foster deeper spiritual connections and challenge established religious norms, paving the way for more inclusive and evolved spiritual dialogues.

Notable Quotes:

• Sugra Ahmed [05:42]: "Plant medicine...unveil the mind. They clear your mind... something in what my friend was saying repeatedly to say that, you know, just, just, just trust me..."

• Sugra Ahmed [34:06]: "That's the nub of it all for me..."

• Sugra Ahmed [46:28]: "In my second dose came to a point of complete and utter reverence."

• Sugra Ahmed [52:31]: "Women have so much power and so much agency, they literally give birth to the human race."

• Sugra Ahmed [59:00]: "Now that is a brilliant question. Is not the God that I envisioned as a kid?"

Further Engagement:

Sugra Ahmed encourages those from conservative religious backgrounds to remain open and curious about the historical and contemporary intersections of psychedelics and spirituality. Her work with Rouhani seeks to bridge gaps and foster understanding, advocating for responsible and informed conversations about plant medicine within faith communities.

For more information on Sugra Ahmed’s work and Rouhani, visit spirit.org.