Welcome to Episode 13 of Season 4! In this episode I speak with Dr. Matthew J. Cressler. This episode is a distinct episode in the project, following that of Steven Tyra, which covers Christian nationalism in the reformed Protestant tradition, and Ruth Braunstein, who discussed Christian nationalism in US evangelicalism; today’s episode is on Christian nationalism in Catholicism, particularly in the USA, as seen throughout the 20th century up until today. Matthew J. Cressler, Ph.D. is a rogue scholar, comics creator, and teacher whose work focuses on religion, race, and justice. He is also chief of staff for the Corporation for Public Interest Technology.

He is the author of Authentically Black and Truly Catholic: The Rise of Black Catholicism in the Great Migrations and creator of Bad Catholics, Good Trouble, the educational webcomic series. He’s written for America, The Atlantic, National Catholic Reporter, The Revealer, Slate, U.S. Catholic, and numerous academic journals, including Religion & American Culture for which he wrote "Real, Good, and Sincere Catholics."

He also co-reported the Religion News Service series “Beyond the Most Segregated Hour,” which won a Wilbur Award from the Religion Communicators Council. He has two forthcoming books currently under contract: Catholics and the Making of MAGA: How an Immigrant Church Became America’s Law and Order Faith (Harper Collins, 2027), and the co-authored Body & Blood: Catholic Horror in America.

Today’s podcast is on Catholicism and Christian nationalism in the USA, although Matthew nuances whether this particular phrase is the best description of what is happening in some factions of the Catholic church. I also introduced the phrase integralism and asked whether this is a better descriptor of a particular form of Catholic Christian nationalism. Matthew again, as you will hear, demurred, as you will hear. Not because he rejected the language outright, but because he wanted to make a broader point about Catholics in general.

What Cressler does is put this current MAGA Catholicism in the context of deeper American history and indeed a deeper international history, taking the French Revolution as an important starting point, though without question the whole reality of Christendom in late antiquity and the medieval period gives us a broad and general context. This is why Matthew was reticent to make a simple equivalency with Christian nationalism in evangelical USA or even with Catholic integralism because apart from its elite proponents, it reflects the Catholicism of a lot of ordinary Catholics.

Matthew asked the question, why is our tradition a welcome home for right-wing and fascist movements in the past and today? How embedded is racism and intolerance embedded in what it means to be a “good catholic”? Matthew described Tom Homan, the man in charge of Trump’s border policy, as the son and grandson of law enforcement officers, and a Catholic. He’s such a good catholic, this is what he said in response to the US Catholic bishops denouncing of Trump’s treatment of migrants:

“The Catholic Church is wrong,” Homan told reporters. “I’m a lifelong Catholic, but I’m saying it not only as a border czar, but I’m also saying this as a Catholic.”

Surely, he too feels he is a good Catholic.

It’s something to consider: in some cases Christian nationalists hear a message of nationalism from the pulpit, but in this case the Church has said, this is not in keeping with the Gospel, and it goes to the highest levels of the Church, directly from Francis and Leo and the bishops. But instead of the Gospel and teaching authority of the Church, one chooses the nation state and oneself. What does it mean to be a good catholic? I think sometimes you need to make good trouble, and perhaps just listening to the perennial message of the Gospel and following it is troubling today to the powers that be.

Two last things: The Flannery O’Connor short story I referenced, poorly, is “A Temple of the Holy Spirit.” If you have not read Flannery O’Connor before, it is worth doing, though she herself reflected some of the racism of Georgia in the mid-twentieth century, she is a terrific writer who offers spiritually powerful insights into the human condition. Good and bad. And the book that Matthew referenced on Catholicism in the southern USA is The South's Tolerable Aliens: Roman Catholics in Alabama and Georgia, 1945-1970, by Andrew S. Moore.

This podcast emerges from the Centre for Christian Engagement at St Mark’s College, the Catholic college at UBC, a centre that explores the Christian and Catholic intellectual tradition and seek to learn from others, other Christians, other religious traditions, and those who do not claim any particular or formal religious affiliation.

What Matters Most is produced by the Centre for Christian Engagement at St Mark’s College, the Catholic college at UBC. The CCE is a centre at St. Mark’s College that explores the Christian and Catholic intellectual tradition and seek to learn from others, other Christians, members of other religious traditions, and from those who do not claim any particular or formal religious affiliation. Our goal, then, is to talk to a lot of people, to learn from them, to listen to them, and to find out what motivates them, what gives them hope, what gives them peace, and what allows them to go out into the world to love their neighbors.

A few thanks are in order. To Martin Strong, to Kevin Eng, and to Fang Fang Chandra, the team who helps me bring this podcast to you, but also makes the CCE run so much more smoothly.

I also want to thank our donors to the Centre, whose generosity enables this work to take place at all: Peter Bull, Angus Reid, and Andy Szocs. We are thankful to their commitment to the life of the academic world and of the work of the Church in the world by funding the work of the CCE. I am also thankful to the Cullen family, Mark and Barbara, for their support of the ongoing work of the CCE through financial donations that allow us to bring speakers to the local and international arenas.

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Thanks again for listening and remember what matters most.

John W. Martens

Director, Centre for Christian Engagement

A Short History of MAGA Catholics: A Conversation with Dr. Matthew J. Cressler