Asma Khan: More Than My Food

Summary

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What Now? with Trevor Noah — "Asma Khan: More Than My Food"

Date: July 23, 2026
Host: Trevor Noah
Guests: Asma Khan (chef, restaurateur, activist), Eugene (co-host)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Trevor Noah sits down with renowned chef, restaurateur, and activist Asma Khan, whose story has been showcased in Netflix’s Chef’s Table and recognized globally as a voice for women, immigrants, and justice in the culinary world. The conversation goes far beyond food, delving into Asma's experiences growing up in India, her fight against gender and social inequality, the deep roots and politics of cuisine, and her philosophy of leadership and legacy. With characteristic humor and soul, Trevor, Eugene, and Asma discuss the meaning of real progress, the tech vs. tradition debate, feminism in the kitchen, and how food tells stories of power, pain, and hope.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tech Overload: The Calamity of Modern Appliances

[06:35–09:05]

• Eugene recounts a comedic but telling "calamity" trying to cook breakfast, being thwarted by a smart stove that demanded an app, Bluetooth, and special pans.
• Asma dispels the notion this is a true calamity: “It's a kind of you not knowing what you were doing.” (08:44, Asma Khan)

Notable Quotes:

• “Most people shouldn't cook. Do you understand what I'm saying?” (Trevor Noah, 01:07)
• “It's almost like a, a layer of difficulty.” (Trevor Noah, 11:13)
• “I feel my generation is so blessed because we lived a real life, and now no one can because you're constantly watched.” (Asma Khan, 12:36)

2. Asma Khan: More Than Food

[09:41–15:24]

• Asma resists being defined solely by her culinary fame:

  "I am more than my food. I bring to the table the blessings and the stories of my ancestors." (09:41)

• Trevor details the many facets of Asma — chef, academic, activist, lawyer — and her resilience navigating numerous intersecting identities.
• Asma uses a Sufi metaphor:

  “I've always seen myself as a force of water. ...I will never see the harvest that grows after I move on.” (15:24)

3. Childhood, Family, and First Wounds

[20:09–29:00]

• Asma recounts growing up in India in a culture that celebrated boys and considered girls a burden.
• Her sister supported her—proclaiming her the "Warrior Princess."

  “Asma, you're the Warrior Princess. When you speak, the earth will shake. One day the world will know who you are.” (21:35, Asma's sister)

• Absence in old family photos underscores childhood feelings of rejection:

  “With all the accolades, no one sees the scars. Everybody has met me when I became famous. No one met me when I was nothing.” (25:10)

• Asma explains: the womb is everyone’s “original home,” and after birth, we are all migrants.

4. The Power of Storytelling, Pain, and Acting Out

[27:01–33:06]

• Trevor discusses the difference between processing pain vs. acting it out, especially as public figures:

  “If you're unable to voice those things [your pain], you will act them out whether you like it or not.” (28:17)

5. On Swimming, Access, and Early Battles

[33:13–42:00]

• Each shares their (often traumatic) learn-to-swim stories, linked to access, cultural factors, and parental expectations.
• Asma uses the metaphor: “I will not go to every battle I’m invited to. I’ll pick the battle I know I’ll win as well.” (41:05)
• Her most significant battle became education—a rarity for women in her family.

6. Class, Marriage, and Royal Roots

[44:20–50:19]

• Asma comes from Indian royalty—her ancestors “looted caravans” before being “made royals and quietened down and given land.”
• Her refusal to marry within a class system deemed her “trouble," but it also spearheaded her independence.

7. Childhood Cricket, Conflict & Community

[46:40–51:21]

• Stories of cricket in the street; incidents of resolving disputes (even with a bat!), which Trevor likens to the need for kids to have unsupervised conflict and resolution—claiming it builds resilience.

8. Real Leadership and Resilience

[51:21–53:54]

• Asma on lessons from her father:

  “Most of the battle is won in your head, because otherwise you're lost. If you don't back yourself, no one will back you.” (52:27)

• She exhorts young people to believe in themselves and to be leaders who walk first into battle.

9. Generation Gaps and Social Progress

[60:18–62:27]

• The panel contrasts Gen Z's macro, societal activism (like booing AI at graduations) with their own micro-level, interpersonal struggles.
• Both generations, in their view, have unique forms of resilience.

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10. Asma's Journey to Food: From Loneliness to Activism

[63:10–75:57]

• Asma didn’t learn to cook as a child; food became her anchor only after moving to the UK and yearning for her home and family.
• At first, “I could not change the weather…but I could cook,” connecting with her mother and ancestors through the aromas of food.
• For Asma, food is identity, power, language—and a vehicle for justice.

  “Food is not just about my identity. Food is also about speaking about injustice.” (73:42)

• She refuses to use ingredients like poppy seeds, recalling the historical exploitation and trauma behind them.

Notable Quotes:

• “I miss being a child and free of responsibility...in this ivory tower, I was abandoned and left alone and I struggled.” (75:57)
• “I want to talk about slavery, I want to talk about colonialism. ...British children in school should be taught about the empire.” (74:57)

11. Food, Justice & Breaking Bread

[79:18–83:14]

• Asma: “When I break bread with you…we have had a shared moment. ...We all realize there is more that connects us than divides us. Food is the greatest way to connect people.” (79:28)
• Food, she insists, is spiritual, healing, and “the most powerful language of love.”

12. Food as Memory, Tech & Disconnection

[84:13–87:05]

• Trevor: “You can’t disassociate your favorite meals from a memory. ...Biting something, tasting something, and immediately being taken back to a moment.”
• Concern over food delivery apps and the loss of seeing/hearing the people who prepare your food.

13. The Politics of Cuisine

[90:22–99:07]

• Asma speaks on local sourcing and rejecting “jet-lagged okra.”
• Trevor unpacks “the customer is always right”—misconstrued from “always right in matters of taste.”
• Asma pushes back against the Michelin system:

  “I never aspired for a Michelin star because Michelin...is excluding people like me.” (94:46)

• They discuss the shifting symbolism of food and class: from abundance as status to portion control as elitist.

14. “Curry”: The Word & Its Problems

[108:49–113:14]

• Asma reveals “curry” is a British word, unknown to her growing up. Each dish in India has its own name and history.

  “It's almost like they need to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator by calling it one thing…they take away...our accent, our fabric, the thing that makes us different.” (109:41)

15. Gender, Kitchens, and Abuses of Power

[114:04–127:46]

• Asma denounces abuse in professional kitchens and “the testosterone-driven madman in a stainless steel empire.”
• She outlines a “joy and rhythm” among the women in her open kitchen.
• Challenges the idolization by TV/media of aggressive, violent male chefs.

• “Television is worshiping all these crazy, manic men who are not being able to deal with the pressure in the kitchen. ...If you can't deal with pressure, go away. Do not traumatize young people.” (114:07)

• Asma notes the silence of prominent female chefs on abuse and her determination to break that pattern.

16. Leadership, Hope, and Legacy

[132:20–135:24]

• Asma remains optimistic, describing her work as paving the way for a future generation of women in kitchens, free from fear.

  “The legacy I’m leaving...that girl who’s not born yet will know my name. ...I fight for those I will never see.” (133:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On being more than her food:

  "I am more than my food. I bring to the table the blessings and the stories of my ancestors." (09:41, Asma Khan)

• On feeling like an outsider:

  "With all the accolades, no one sees the scars. Everybody has met me when I became famous. No one met me when I was nothing." (25:10, Asma Khan)

• On the role of pain in ambition:

  "If you're unable to voice those things [your pain], you will act them out whether you like it or not." (28:17, Trevor Noah)

• On leadership:

  "Most of the battle is won in your head... If you don't back yourself, no one will back you." (52:27, Asma Khan)

• On why she cooks:

  "Food became then not something I ate, but it became everything. My identity, my culture, my religion, my everything, my name." (71:48, Asma Khan)

• On food as connection and justice:

  "Food is not just about my identity. Food is also about speaking about injustice." (73:42, Asma Khan)
  “There is more that connects us than divides us. Food is the greatest way to connect people.” (79:29, Asma Khan)

• On professional kitchens:

  “Television is worshiping all these crazy, manic men who are not being able to deal with the pressure. ...Do not traumatize young people. ...We are allowing this because we allow the excuse that this is pressure.” (114:07, Asma Khan)

• On legacy:

  “Maybe she's not born yet, but the legacy I'm leaving and that girl that’s not born yet, she will know my name...I fight for those I will never see.” (133:32, Asma Khan)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment Title | Summary | |------------|---------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:35–09:05| Tech Calamity | Eugene's peril with the smart stove; Asma's perspective on generational change | | 09:41 | "More Than My Food" | Asma asserts her multifaceted identity | | 20:09–25:10| Childhood Wounds | Gender, family rejection, and developing resilience | | 28:17 | The Lingering Impact of Pain | Trevor on pain being acted out | | 33:13–42:00| Learning to Swim / Choosing Battles | Cultural/familial challenges & strategies for winning where it matters | | 44:20 | Royal Roots and Class Expectations | Asma’s feudal family and defiance | | 63:10–75:57| Asma’s Food Journey | From London loneliness to culinary activism | | 79:18–81:28| Breaking Bread | Food as a spiritual, communal, healing act | | 90:22–99:07| Politics of Cuisine & Michelin System | Local sourcing, critique of elitist food culture | | 108:49–113:14| "Curry" Discourse | The problematic British invention of the term “curry” | | 114:04–127:46| Gender & Abuse in Professional Kitchens | Asma exposes violence, exclusion, and sexism in the industry | | 132:20–135:24| Legacy and the Future | Asma’s hope for fearless women in kitchens |

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Episode Tone & Style

• Candid, playful, and probing: The discussion is marked by warmth and humor, even as it deals with deep, sometimes painful truths.
• Radically honest: Asma doesn’t shy away from addressing cultural wounds, kitchen abuses, or political realities; Trevor and Eugene both probe and share.
• Storytelling-rich: The power of narrative—personal, historical, culinary—is central to the episode.

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Conclusion

This essential conversation with Asma Khan is about far more than food. It’s about resilience, storytelling, justice, and the fight for equality—in the kitchen and beyond. Asma’s humor, honesty, and passion bring to life not only the flavors of her heritage but also the power of using one’s voice (and recipes) to leave the world richer and more inclusive for those who come after.

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If you haven’t caught this episode, you’ll walk away inspired—hungry for both a great meal and a more just world.

Transcript

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Foreign.

[Trevor Noah]

So I love pig trotters. Yeah, right.

[Eugene]

Generally.

[Trevor Noah]

Any. Any, like, you can't.

[Eugene]

You can't call them pig trotters.

[Asma Khan]

Okay. Any hawk. Okay, Whatever. Trotter, trotter, Any hoof.

[Trevor Noah]

Any. You know what I mean?

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

So we have fire.

[Trevor Noah]

Is that what it's. Right, so pig, cow, you name it. Just like anything with the hoof. Yeah, I mean. I mean, the gelatinous.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, of course.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, so you can't really find much of it, especially like Hunanese. I think that's how you pronounce a cuisine in. In South Africa. So Eugene one day says to me, he goes, yo, I. Why don't I. I can cook that for you. Then I was like, shame, my friend. He's really. This is like a lovely gesture, but completely unnecessary. Do you know what I mean? And then he was like. He's like. I was like, what do you mean? Then Eugene said, oh, I cook. Then I went, ah, I understand what he means. He means that he will put food together on a stove, heat it up, and then ingest it. Now, many people can cook.

[Asma Khan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Most people shouldn't cook. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I've met many people who can cook. I've met many people who say, you should come over.

[Asma Khan]

We'll cook. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And then when you go, there you go. I pray this never happens again. I pray this. This thing you've done to me should never be done to another person. If I could call the Hague, I would. Because of what. In fact, I'm shocked that you spent time doing this. The fact that you said, we'll be busy for the next few hours, and this is what you made.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, my God.

[Trevor Noah]

This is what now? With trevor?

[Eugene]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

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[Trevor Noah]

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[Eugene]

Smell what?

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. That's what is so impressive about this. Because a lot of the things in here are exactly the things that you can't throw in the wash. None of it. The cleats, the bag, the car seat after practice. That's the whole point. Febreze fabric is for the things the game touches that the washing machine can't. And it's made with no dyes, no formaldehydes, and uses a 100% natural nitrogen propellant. If your soccer gear is starting to smell like its own locker room, it's time for Febreze fabric. It doesn't just mask the odors, it fights them. Find Febreze fabric at Walmart. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. Imagine this. You're at a checkout counter. You're ready to pay when you realize you don't have your wallet. Dun, dun, dun. You could drive all the way back home and you could get it. But you remember that you have your Apple card on your iPhone so you can tap to pay with Apple Pay. Imagine that. No need to carry a wallet. But you know, one of the things I do like about having My card on my phone is, we live in a world where you lose your card and then you don't know where it is. And then you're like, what do I do? Well, if your phone is connected to your card and your card is connected to your phone, you know what's going on. The best thing about having the Apple card connected to your phone is you know what every transaction is. You know, like, sometimes you're like, what did I spend this month? The Apple card will show you one month. I had spent an obscene amount of money ordering videos online.

[Eugene]

Just videos.

[Trevor Noah]

They were just videos.

[Eugene]

What kind of videos?

[Trevor Noah]

That's not the point. The point is, I knew that I didn't want to order those videos anymore because I'd spent too much money on it. It was videos on how to not spend money online.

[Eugene]

I felt like I'd been duped.

[Trevor Noah]

Point is, Apple showed me what I was spending my money on, and I was able to change my spending habits. And you can do it, too. I earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase with my Apple card. That's unlimited daily cash back no matter where I shop. Apply for Apple card in the wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com.

[Eugene]

I feel like the universe conspired for. For this interview to happen today because of what happened to me this morning. And I feel like you might be overqualified for this question, but you will indulge me.

[Trevor Noah]

What happened to me?

[Eugene]

It's not really a question. It's actually a. For a word we use a lot in India. Calamity.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. Oh, now I want to know what happened to you use the word calamity. That's not a small word. That's a loaded word.

[Eugene]

So this morning, bought groceries, two days worth of groceries. And I thought to myself, this morning, let me make myself egg and toast, right? And a little bit of Italian sausage. Then I tried to turn on the stove. The stove said, do you have the app? I said, no, I don't have the app. Downloaded the app. Swear.

[Trevor Noah]

Was the stove talking or does it write this?

[Eugene]

It writes there on the screen. You see where on the oven side where it's supposed to show you the temperature of whatever setting you are on.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's a. Do you have the app?

[Eugene]

Yeah, it says download app. Searching for app. Then I downloaded the app. Then the app said, connect to put Bluetooth and also wi fi for a stove. Stove.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Eugene]

Then I was like, okay, maybe let's give up on the oven. Let me go to the induction, top side of it. Put the plate, put the pan, put the oil, switched it on the stove. Said. I was like, we're on, we're in business now. Picked my temperature. Five seconds later, stove went off. Kept doing that. Went onto YouTube. Try to Google what's going on. At the end of searching after five videos, it says for the induction stove of that make. Exactly. You have to have steel bottom pans.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

Yeah. But I look under the pans and they look like metal.

[Asma Khan]

This is not a visual thing, this is a real thing. Because induction will not. Every pan doesn't work. So calamity is also. I think it's. It's too big a word for this. This is more.

[Eugene]

Why were the pants there in the first place?

[Asma Khan]

Induction doesn't. Every pan doesn't work on induction.

[Eugene]

The pans were there.

[Asma Khan]

I know, I'm not disputing that, but I'm just telling you it's not a calamity. It's a kind of you not knowing what you were doing.

[Eugene]

Me or the person that bought the pants.

[Asma Khan]

Okay, the person who bought the pants. So are you. You've come hungry.

[Eugene]

Well, I knew you were coming, but I thought you'll bring a little tap away or something.

[Trevor Noah]

Do people expect that of you everywhere? I did. No, because I assume if you are a world renowned chef who has appeared on chef's table time, 100 most influential people, the royal family has come to your restaurant to participate in the making of food and then they call you two the palace to come and be honoured. You would think now the pressure of food follows you everywhere. No, it doesn't.

[Asma Khan]

No, because I don't allow that to come through. Because I am more than my food. I bring to the table the blessings and the stories of my ancestors.

[Trevor Noah]

Is this an excuse, Asma? I feel like you're just giving us a fancy excuse for not bringing food. I know how Asma is. I know Asma Khan. She'll trick you real quick. You're like, where's my food? She's like, let me tell you about my ancestors. Then you're like, so there's no food.

[Eugene]

They have the Tupperware.

[Asma Khan]

Because you said, I. I owe you. I owe you Tupperware. I owe you Tupperware. Come to London. I'm staying. I'm. At least I don't have induction and fancy pants. I was just staying in a hotel, an ordinary hotel that I couldn't even work out how to use the coffee machine to make tea.

[Eugene]

You're a calamity.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, that's a calamity. I said, should I pour the water in? Do I put the button on? I thought, you know, this might just set off the fire alarm. So I had to buy the tea.

[Trevor Noah]

I think it's a scam that they. I think they do it on purpose.

[Eugene]

When did we get here? When switching on an oven and making a coffee and has become so technical.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what it is? It's because somebody tricked us into believing that all things need to be updated in terms of their technology. But there's no real reason for this. Your fridge doesn't need to be connected to the Internet. That's not a thing. Your microwave does not need to be connected to the Internet. These are things that, that were working just fine. There is no benefit to them being connected to. People are like, oh, but then your fridge knows when it's empty. You know who also knows when your fridge is empty?

[Asma Khan]

You.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't need the Internet to know that your fridge.

[Asma Khan]

That is so empty. That is so true.

[Trevor Noah]

We just, we've just, we've just added. It's almost like a, a layer of difficulty.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But it's, it's also, it's also a myth of progress, I find.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, right.

[Trevor Noah]

Sometimes, sometimes what we do in society is we go in order to prove that we're moving forward, we have to add complications and layers on top of something. When the simplest execution of it was actually the best. Sometimes the real way to move forwards is to go like as far back as possible. And then you find like the real sort of like the evolutions or the progresses that have been forgotten. I would even argue you're becoming more

[Eugene]

and more anti technology as you grow older. What happened to you?

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. I'm Pro technology. I'm 100% Pro technological.

[Eugene]

You're gonna be having shoelaces on your shoes.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, I'm not analog. Let me tell you. I'm 100% pro technology.

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

That's why I don't like technology in the wrong places.

[Asma Khan]

I think that's a very valid point because where technology is used in areas where it's not required, I think that technology has done amazing things and lives are saved. You can do a lot with it. But I completely agree with you that this is being used literally like a blanket on everything. And it's almost like sometimes I feel when I struggle with things that everything has been updated and gone through this technological process. Maybe I need to do it. I need to go into some machine and get zapped. So I know what the hell is happening. Because at 57, I never saw a computer till I was in my early 20s. So I'm that generation. The year I left India is when we first got color television and we used to get just state television for a few hours. And I feel I'm the most blessed generation without technology and also without getting into trouble, because no one could then text my mother and say, is your daughter at school? I've just seen her on a motorbike with this guy. I know, but nobody could say anything to my mom. But I feel that technology is great, but I feel that this, my generation is so blessed because we lived a real life, and now no one can because you're constantly watched, you're scrutinized, you're analyzed, and we live in images in front of us. Constantly feeling that understanding that this may be filtered and maybe AI, but feeling inadequate because you're comparing yourself to something that's not real. And then you left in that doubt. Like, I watch, like, an obsessive person, these cats dancing. I know it's AI. I know it's AI, but I'm dying to figure out how to do it so I can make my cat dance in a video. But. I know, but this is, like, fun of it, you know, that there's this kind of technology that you see, you know, cat is, like, grooving and dancing. I just obsessed with it. I have, like, endless videos of that. But I just feel that, you know, there's a space for everything. All the lines are being blurred in everything.

[Trevor Noah]

I. I feel like you exist in one of the last bastions. For real, right? Because when I. When I was thinking of this conversation, I was thinking of who you are, Asma Khan. I was like, there's so many places to try and position you, but you exist. You spill over into more than one space. Which is. Which is what I think I've always loved about you as a person. You're so dynamic. You know, you can say Asma Khan for from Chef's Table. That's how a lot of people go, oh, yes, Chef's Table. I've watched Chef's Table, and it's like art that talks about food and then it talks about culture, and then it brings you into a world. And if people know you from there, they'll know one side of you. There are some people who'll know you from your restaurant in England, and they'll go, oh, I've been there. It's one of the most amazing places, and the food and the stories in the kitchen and, you know, everything that goes into preparing this feast is how I know you then. I'm sure there's some people who know you back from India. There's some people who know you just from England from getting your PhD. There's some people who.

[Asma Khan]

You. You.

[Trevor Noah]

You're this person who's so complex and so broad, and I feel like you have to be like that because of your life. You're like a product of your life. Does that make sense?

[Asma Khan]

Absolutely, it makes sense. And, I mean, you've explained it better than I could have tried to explain to someone else. Why I am this person who I see myself always. You know, there's this kind of. In Sufi Islam, there's a lot of talk about this journey of the river into the ocean that is, you know, the ultimate thing, but it's also what we say. That is when you reach fulfillment as well, and you reach that goal in life. And as a river, I've. I've always seen myself as a force of water. And I moisten the earth around me, and I will never see the harvest that grows after I move on. And I break the bricks and the stones that block me and that block everybody. My color of skin, my name, my accent, my fabric that I wear. So I have to be more than one kind of thing, because it's not just that we don't have a seat on the table. There are multiple reasons why you don't have a seat on the table. I need, you know, a lot of people after chef's table told me, oh, wow, you broke the glass ceiling. He was the first British chef on chef's table. But underneath, that is very nuanced. I'm layered. I have lots of other things that I am. But one thing I felt very strongly, and I would tell people that I am not standing in some glass ceiling with glass around me. I want to bring the edifice down. I want to break every door and every window that keeps out people like me. Not just women, men and women who are excluded from having a seat on the table, who are excluded. And for that, I had to use dig deep inside who I am. So from my spirituality to my education to being discriminated as a child and being made to feel unwanted, unloved, surplus in our family, I clawed myself out of that to victory. And it's not that it's easy. I run a different race from a white person, a white man. I run a different race from a white Woman. Because in my race, I carry cultural baggage, my choice. But I have to go through fire every time to prove that I'm good enough. But what happens is I come out glistening like gold. I know where I need to go. And this is probably why it helps that at different times, I can dig deep into something I learned as a lawyer my time in India, understanding the importance of solidarity between women. So it's not that there's one thing that I can lean on. I go through storms using different techniques because in the end, I need to get to shore.

[Trevor Noah]

My mom would respond to this by saying, Amen. No. 100%. This is, like, literally, there are so many things you're saying that I feel like I've experienced or felt through many women in my life. Like, you know, my grandmother, my mom, et cetera. It's a powerful and beautiful message, and it's a vibe. But, you know, if I could think of where I'd hope to get to in this conversation is I'd love for people to see how you came to be like all the pieces of the stained glass window that ended up making Asma Khan the way we know you today, because you throw it away so flippantly. But imagine you're sitting down with one of the most accomplished shifts in the world who casually then says, my time as a lawyer. Then you're like, here. Do. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Eugene]

Also, don't forget the coffee machine.

[Trevor Noah]

The coffee machine didn't work. But I don't know if that was an accolade gene. That was a.

[Eugene]

That was a.

[Asma Khan]

That's.

[Trevor Noah]

That's one of her trials and tribulations. One of the many things Asma has.

[Asma Khan]

Has challenged.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, one of the. But, like.

[Eugene]

But.

[Trevor Noah]

But let's. Let's go backwards through your life, because I want to understand how you got to this place. Because this place seems so obvious now. Like many people's stories. Do you know if I said to people, asma Khan has one of the most successful restaurants in the world. It's based in London. She has a kitchen that is staffed by women. She earns the same as everybody who works in her kitchen. People will just be like, oh, yeah, well, this makes sense. Cause look at her. She's a force of nature. She's.

[Eugene]

Yeah, but.

[Trevor Noah]

But where did it all begin? So let's go to the beginning.

[Asma Khan]

Where.

[Eugene]

Where.

[Trevor Noah]

Where would you say is the. Is the most formative moment that starts your life?

[Asma Khan]

I remember this so clearly. I remember when my brother was born who was three years older than Me. So I was three.

[Eugene]

Okay.

[Asma Khan]

And everybody came because, you know, then you don't have a kind of Facebook text saying, oh, this is my baby, just arrived. This was 1972. And people came and didn't believe that I had a brother because after the two girls, the boy was born, the heir to the family name. And I remember at that time being confused why everyone called me a liar because my mother did not celebrate. My parents did not light the house up or distribute sweets, which is a tradition in our culture. You know, when a boy is born, a lot of. Lot of sweets are given out.

[Trevor Noah]

I didn't know that.

[Asma Khan]

Okay. Yeah. And often when a girl is born, nothing happens. No fireworks, no kind of celebration, because it's like. It's almost like a death. Because the family has now got another burden. The girl is not so celebrated. I remember from then on that nobody believed me because nothing happened. And I think that that and the way that my sister stood by me really transformed things because we are very obsessed about color. And I was dark skinned, I was fat, but I loved cricket. I played on the streets with the street children. My parents ignored that. My father would come and ask me, did you get out? I hope you beat those boys. Know. I hope you did well and. But would not say it openly. If he saw me on the street and drove past, he ignored me so that he did not have to acknowledge that he saw his daughter playing on the street, street cricket. But when people would tell me that I was fat and ugly in my extended family and that nothing, you know, good would happen, that no one would marry me, which was the, like, the biggest thing they can say. My sister, who everybody loved. My sister still bloody looks younger than me. She's a year and a half older than me. She's a rock star. She still looks like a model. Beautiful girl, fair, long hair. She was the princess in the family. And everybody adored her. Everybody loved her. I don't think many people loved me. And she would hold my hand in the darkness, away from everybody, and tell me, asma, you're the Warrior Princess. When you speak, the earth will shake. One day the world will know who you are. I believed her. I believed her because everybody who loved her thought she was great. But that person believed in me. And this is why, at a very young age, I realized one thing. If you speak up and you tell someone in the darkness, you don't need to be brave to speak up. Say it in silence. Do something. My sister. By telling me I was the Warrior Princess, today I am the warrior Princess. But it's because of her. These are the transformation things that happened when I was very young and I realized that my mother and father were not discriminating between me and my brother, between my. Me and my sister, even though I know that behind my back and sometimes in my hearing, I could hear people saying, what's going to happen to her? She's a liability.

[Trevor Noah]

That must have been so hard, though. Like, you're growing up in a world where. Because when. You know, I think we take for granted how when you're a child, you're just a child.

[Eugene]

Mm.

[Trevor Noah]

You're just being you.

[Eugene]

That's all you are.

[Trevor Noah]

That's all you are, and that's all you've ever been.

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, when you're an adult, you get to look back on yourself as a child.

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And then try and make sense of these things. Think about your parents, think about your life. You try and reinterpret the experiences that you had. But I'm trying to imagine you as a child, listening to people talking about you as if you are, you know, like a liability. Like a factory reject in a family.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. And like a liability. And the thing is that I. It was, you know, both sets of grandparents and, you know, elderly aunts and things. So I was loved by some, but the authorities, you know, the big figures, never kind of understood. It's still very raw. A few years ago, I wrote a book over Covid called amu. All the recipes I learned from my mother. We went through the family archives. My grandfather's a photographer. I never remember seeing a photograph of me and my mother. But I thought, you know, maybe, you know, it never got developed. He used to do it in his dark room. We went through the entire archive, and I remember him saying, asma, not you, because you'll spoil the picture.

[Eugene]

No.

[Asma Khan]

And there was no picture of my mother and me, but my mother went to a wedding. She was six months pregnant, and someone photographed her. Because you know how they say in our culture, oh, you look like you're having a boy, you look like you're having a girl. Depending on the shape of the stomach

[Eugene]

in South Africa, it's your size of your nose.

[Trevor Noah]

No, he's being serious. He is being serious. Oh, my God.

[Asma Khan]

I love this.

[Eugene]

His nose is white. Oh, it's a boy.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, God. This is the funniest thing ever. No, we have this thing about shape of stomach. So the photographer took a picture of my mother pregnant with me. So in the introduction, I used the picture of my pregnant mother because I know it's her and me in the womb. I am there. And at some point, the publisher, who was really lovely and my book editor was saying, we can just do an image. I said, when that image didn't exist, don't. Don't do this. Because I'll always know it's fake. I don't do that. I carry the scars. And it's not that. The scars. With all the success that I've had, I'm grateful for that. With all the accolades. No one sees the scars. Everybody has met me when I became famous. No one met me when I was nothing. For the scars, they still stay. And they hurt. They still hurt. So that picture of my mother and me and when they put that book together, that's my favorite picture. My mother, you know, looking embarrassed, you know, with a. You know, all dressed up in a wedding with me in the womb. And that's when I was completely convinced about one thing. That's my original home for all of us. The womb of our mother is our real home. Now, when people call each other immigrants, migrants, you know, people. The day you leave your mother's womb, we're all migrants. And then after that, we are lost.

[Trevor Noah]

Then you're out. You're on your own.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. Then we are away. We adrift.

[Trevor Noah]

It's funny how people use immigrant and migrant, but then depending on where you're from and the color of your skin, then they say expats.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Have you ever noticed that? Because expats are immigrants. But, I mean, let's be honest, everyone wants to be an expat. Nobody wants to be an immigrant.

[Eugene]

And if you're planning to go somewhere else, you're a nomad.

[Trevor Noah]

Ah, you're a nomad. Digital nomad.

[Eugene]

Not here for long, guys.

[Asma Khan]

I'm a nomad.

[Eugene]

I'm a nomad.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm a nomad. I'm a digital nomad. Are you an immigrant? Ah, ah, ah, ah.

[Eugene]

Please, please, please.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm a nomad.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And if you.

[Eugene]

If you're there for long enough.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

And you're acceptable, you're naturalized, you're natural.

[Trevor Noah]

Of course, of course. But it's only natural, my friend. Yes, it's only natural, but it's. Wow. You. You know, you know, what's so important about what you're saying is I think a lot of people will feel the wounds that they felt growing up or experienced in their life as they were being formed. If they're lucky, they'll achieve a modicum of success or they'll find themselves in a new Place in life that doesn't look like where they came from. And then they feel guilty voicing that they still have pain or hurt or. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Eugene]

Absolutely.

[Trevor Noah]

And then. But then what happens is they'll. They'll act out their pain, I find.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. So I. I think. I think in. In life, if you are hurt or if you're in pain or if you have suffered or you, you know, you've gone through traumatic things when you were growing up, if you're unable to voice those things, I feel like you will act them out whether you like it or not. And then people wonder why someone who's famous or rich or powerful, you're like, why is this person such an asshole? Why are they being like this? I. I think it's because they can't say their pain.

[Eugene]

Yeah, you're right. I think it's vocabulary. I think when you're younger, your vocabulary is acting out. That's all you can do. Babies, after they're born.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Eugene]

When they're. When they're hungry, they cry. When they can't sleep, they cry. You know, So I think as you get older, but I also think when you. There's something strange that happened to me when I reached the age of what my dad was. At the time that my parents divorced. I looked at their divorce differently. I looked at a man who wanted to do something else and end up doing another thing that's, you know, I. I didn't look at a person who could. Who didn't want responsibility. I looked at a guy who pushed away his happiness for so long and took on responses that they didn't want. And when he suddenly decided to stand up for himself, he had all of these people around him that needed him, and he chose not to be there because he wanted to put himself ahead. And your story so much reminds me of my aunt. Because my. My. My dad's sister was the only girl in the family and she had four brothers. And every time something would go wrong, their wives, our moms, would go tell her. And no one cared about her story. Oh, no one ever said, how's Auntie doing? She would. She would make turns every time. Cause she used to sell vegetables. So she would knock off from the. From the. From the rank in town. Then she would make turns in every house to drop off a packet of something. Onions, tomatoes. And she would sit around for a small chat with the kids. Then afterwards, she would sit around with the wives and ask, how's my brother? Is he behaving Then she would. The third turn would be her going to speak to the said brother to say, but I think what you're doing is wrong. Then after, she would just cut a lonely figure going to the next, because we lived almost in close proximity to each other. But no one ever asked my aunt how she was feeling and how she was doing. And now that you speak like this, I'm thinking she was playing cricket with the boys and winning, and no one pulled her to the side and said, you're doing great. And said it in public, even.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, it's just the thing. The reason I speak and the reason why I'm unafraid, and we were discussing this before you joined the table, is that I am here to represent first women in their graves. The unloved, the unwanted, those that never got appreciated, who never were told that this korma that you made was beautiful. Or that, like your aunt, that, you know, every time you came for vegetables, it gave something extra to my table. Or that there was this kindness in you asking me how I am because, you know, my husband didn't have time to ask me how I am. We don't say these things to the women. We also don't say it to men. But I think that women, particularly, because we make it look like effortless, people think it's valueless because we.

[Trevor Noah]

Because we make it look effortless.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. They think it's valueless because we don't. You know, I don't sit here and say, you know, I'm. This I did for you, because now you're going to have this extra dish and, you know, I've taken half an hour out of my time. Instead of washing my hair, I'm sitting here talking to you. Women don't do this. Especially women of that generation don't do it. So in that silent sacrifices that so many women have made, there is this hollowness in the storytelling. Every day I live one day less. All of us do. I try to tell the story

[Eugene]

of

[Asma Khan]

myself, but I also try to tell the stories of all women. Because in that space where they never said anything, my voice echoes every time I come back to this. Because I know the next dawn is not guaranteed to me. And I want to use. I want to be useful. When that time comes and I'm submerged in the ocean, I want to look back and see greenery and moisture and that there is no barriers, that I managed to break it even it meant with my body.

[Eugene]

Wait, Asma.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah?

[Eugene]

You want to be buried in the ocean?

[Asma Khan]

No, no, that I don't want to. I'm scared of water.

[Eugene]

Okay.

[Asma Khan]

I'm scared of water.

[Eugene]

I want to bury it there, because how am I going to visit you?

[Asma Khan]

No, no, no, no, no. I'm scared of water.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, why are you scared of water?

[Asma Khan]

Because I don't know how to swim.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, okay. That makes sense.

[Asma Khan]

I grew up. Do you all know how to swim?

[Eugene]

I do, yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I can swim to save my life.

[Asma Khan]

Okay, but did you learn late in life?

[Trevor Noah]

I did. I did. Yeah. So my mom. My mom tried to teach me how to swim by pushing me into a pool. And then all that happened was I basically almost drowned. And then someone had to come in and say, wait, hold on.

[Eugene]

Was this a home pool or a public pool?

[Trevor Noah]

It was a home pool.

[Eugene]

It was always there.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, not in my house. Not in my house.

[Eugene]

At someone's house.

[Trevor Noah]

So we were at a. We went to a. A prayer meeting. Like, you know, you'd move from house to house, right? So the church, you'd have prayer meetings, and each week you'd be at a different person's home.

[Eugene]

And she was like, today's the day.

[Trevor Noah]

So we're at. We're at a prayer meeting. It was at the Voss family, right? So at the Voss family's house. And we're all in the backyard.

[Asma Khan]

He's making up the name, and it sounds like.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, it's. I remember that. I remember that. It's such a specific thing to me.

[Eugene]

Wow.

[Trevor Noah]

And so we're in the backyard and everyone's having a good time. Now. I used to love swimming pools. I still do, But I couldn't swim. So what I would do is I'd get in the pool and then I would hold the edge.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I would just go. I would just go around the side. Go around the side. Go around the side. That's all. And then when I get to the shallow end, I'd bounce. Yes, Bounce.

[Eugene]

Pretend you're swimming.

[Trevor Noah]

Bounce. Pretend I'm swimming. I'd do this.

[Asma Khan]

It's good when you're a child. I still do. It's amazing now.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

Embarrassing.

[Eugene]

It is.

[Asma Khan]

Which part?

[Eugene]

The bouncing or the holding on?

[Asma Khan]

So then what happened?

[Trevor Noah]

So then I was outside the pool. We're standing on the edge. I forget how this even happened. People talking, talking about, I wish it was a drop kick. Then it was like talking. Swimming, not swimming. Whatever, whatever. And then someone said. Someone said, trevor, can you swim? And I said, no, I can't swim. He said, oh, how can you not swim? And he said, ah, no. You know, Sorry. Then he says. Then I said, I haven't learned. Then he said, ah, learn. You don't need to learn. My dad just threw me in the pool.

[Eugene]

And then I.

[Trevor Noah]

And then I swam. And then my mom laughed. And then she pushed me in the pool because she was like, oh, ah, I've been slacking as a parent. And then she pushed me into the pool, and then I flew in. And then it was deep end, so I was down. And it's hard to explain to swimmers how hard it is when you're in water and you can't swim.

[Asma Khan]

What happened to me?

[Trevor Noah]

Your body just doesn't know buoyancy.

[Eugene]

It doesn't exist, bruh. You just go to the bottom and

[Trevor Noah]

you make the mistake of gasping. So you. And then. And then water goes in. Water goes in, water goes in. And then I remember looking up, you can see. You can see up through the surface of the water. You're there, you're there, you're there. And then eventually Mr. Voss jumped in. Clothing and everything. Jumped straight in. And then he came and he fetched me. And then my mom was laughing hard. She thought it was. She genuinely thought it was the funniest thing ever. And then I was like, you

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kill.

[Eugene]

Kill me.

[Trevor Noah]

Then she's like, why didn't you swim? And I was like, that's not. And then the guy who said my dad pushed me, he was like, that's not what I meant. I'm sorry. So then I decided that I would learn how to swim for myself. And I just did it myself. 1. It was actually my cousin who taught me. Bulelo.

[Eugene]

My cousin.

[Trevor Noah]

She's a good swimmer. And then she was like, okay, just do. We went through all the different strokes, you know, it was like breaststroke, freestyle. She's like, you got to. One of them has to work. Oh.

[Eugene]

So, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then she was like, try this, try this, try this, try this. And then one I could, like, pick up. So I can swim to save my life.

[Eugene]

My learning to swim experience was more traumatic than yours, actually. And actually very dangerous.

[Trevor Noah]

What did you do?

[Eugene]

Because we had just moved into this new neighborhood, and then there was a place where. It was a dam almost. So whenever it would rain, the water would rise higher and everyone would go there after school. But the thing was, everyone would talk about it at school. So if you haven't been there, you're a loser. So the conversation will start about something, something, something, and I will end up with a dam.

[Trevor Noah]

Always got to the dam.

[Eugene]

Always got to the dam. So one day after school, I was like, I have to see what this dam is all about. But I still remember, you know, how fresh water smells differently from swimming pool water. And then we all went there after school. Shorts on small T shirts. Because, you know, after school you play with your old clothes.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

That are not so fancy. I remember we went there, then we stood there. And then everyone jumped in because they'd been there before. Some people were swimming from branches, jumping in. And I remember to myself thinking, yo, if I don't go into this water, I can't show my face at school.

[Trevor Noah]

You're a chicken, bro.

[Eugene]

Yes, but what no one tells you about a dam is it's gradually getting deep, so it's not just a hole. So I remember the feeling of sand, river sand under my feet and going. And the smell and the dragonflies and the ender. And the next thing you know, feet are not touching the ground anymore.

[Trevor Noah]

It drops off suddenly.

[Eugene]

And then the advice starts. Just. It's the advice as the water hits the ear, then alternating between the advice and the. And the advice and the advice and the advice. And then after a while, it's too far to go back. It's too far to go forward. Then I decided to myself, this is not my day. I've got an exam next week. My mom wants me to wash the dishes. Cause I left without washing dishes. Cause I just dropped my school bag. And I went home and said, I'm not gonna die now. This is not how it's gonna end.

[Trevor Noah]

Obligation pulled you out.

[Eugene]

Obligation and responsibility pulled. Cause I thought if I die, my mom would come fetch me. And she would embarrass me in front of all the spirit. But I thought, let me. There's nothing that I'm doing now that can save my life except for listening to this advice. And I listened to the advice and the coaching. Kick, kick, palm, palm, palm, palm. And I kept on doing that. And the next thing you know, I was staying.

[Trevor Noah]

No ways.

[Eugene]

100. I was staying up. I was staying up.

[Asma Khan]

I'm not feeling this.

[Eugene]

Confidence grew. And then I was out to a shallow side. And then I just remember being, you know, hugged by everyone and thinking, you're a hero.

[Trevor Noah]

I. I was.

[Asma Khan]

I love this. The fact he didn't want to die because he was just worried about what his mother would do.

[Trevor Noah]

That's crazy, right? Just responsibility.

[Eugene]

Gotten so many.

[Asma Khan]

It says something about African mothers, too.

[Eugene]

I just thought she had powers to fetch me. She would come and fetch me. Oh, my God.

[Asma Khan]

This is like the next day.

[Trevor Noah]

Who said, you can drown? Who Said you can drown. Are you drowning?

[Eugene]

Who said you can die?

[Trevor Noah]

Did I say you can die? Did I say you can die? When I go home, Mom. But I'm dead. You think you're gonna die here without my permission? Go. Did you wash the dishes?

[Eugene]

Oh, I didn't wash the dish.

[Asma Khan]

Are you blow.

[Trevor Noah]

Are you bloating?

[Eugene]

Why?

[Trevor Noah]

Who said you can bloat? On my watch?

[Eugene]

Never.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, African mother is the Asian mothers too. Same, same.

[Trevor Noah]

Same vibe.

[Asma Khan]

Same, same vibe.

[Trevor Noah]

So, wait, so, I mean, obviously most people don't understand your. Your access to pools determines or bodies of water determines your ability to swim. So you were growing. Where were you growing up?

[Asma Khan]

I was growing up in Calcutta. And the thing is that, you know, in our tradition, we don't swim because you've got to wear a swimming costume. How do you swim? You can't go in shorts and a T shirt. You know, like, oh, wow. So it's not that it. There were some cousins.

[Trevor Noah]

Sorry. Because it's revealing.

[Asma Khan]

It's revealing.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, okay, got it.

[Asma Khan]

And also, it was just like a lot of strange men around. And so I never even thought that I had to learn how to swim because it was like, things you don't do. I have cousins who swim and, you know, like, my niece swims and a lot of people swim now. But even at my time in the 80s in Calcutta, you know, we had a swimming team in school. But because of the kind of heritage I came from, it was a bigger issue and a challenge. And of all the battles that I was fighting, drowning in a dam was not something I was worried about. So I always, from a very young age, you know, I will not go to every battle I'm invited to. So I. You know, what a great lie. I'll pick the battle that I know I'll win as well. Okay, so why go in and swim in water and drown? Because I'm scared of water. So I picked the other battles that I had to fight. Like, you know, I was the first girl in my mother's entire, you know, my generation who went to college. Nobody went to college. I mean, the reason I went. I mean, I make it sound more heroic. Nobody married me because by 18, everybody got married. But at 18, nobody married me. So then I told my mom, I can't just stay at home.

[Trevor Noah]

So if you. So if you were married, education was not out of the question at that age.

[Asma Khan]

At that age, you know, at 18, you got married and you went off. I mean, like, my sister went on and studied after marriage.

[Eugene]

Okay.

[Asma Khan]

So some people did choose to do that. But at 18, you got married. That was it. So everybody's marriage was arranged. You know, an arranged marriage is different from forced marriage. Okay, can you explain the difference?

[Eugene]

Type of marriage? Yeah, that one. You've come to the right place.

[Asma Khan]

Yes, yes. So no, I need to explain arranged and forced marriage, please. Arranged marriage is a bit like being on Tinder, but all your family involved, so they all choose. So it's not your choice. And everybody is deciding. So you marry. And they look at things like, you know, compatibility. You know, this person, you know, likes certain things, went to the same education, same school, same education, speaks the same language, likes the same kind of stuff. And there are middle people, aunties. Aunties who are a class act because they are interfering, prying, meddling people. But they also arrange marriages because they will ask you things like, so tell me, what music do you listen to? Do you smoke? Have you ever tried to smoke? So they are the ones who ask these questions, and then they will carry news about you to other people. But because I was seen as trouble from a very young age because people felt, even though I wasn't, like, defiant and doing crazy things, but everyone saw me as someone who wasn't broken by the system that they had not overcome, that I was resilient. I think they could see it. I radiated that at a very young age. I did not. I was joyous. And I loved playing the guitar. I wrote poetry, I played Shakespeare. I loved playing cricket. And I did things that, you know, were unusual. I had a joy, but I had gratitude every day. For me, I was grateful. I lived. I was so grateful. Every sunrise I would say, yeah, I have another day. I'm going to do something exciting today. So I think that this kind of signaled to others that, you know, she may be trouble. So I come from a royal family, so ideally, I should have married in a royal family.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, wait, wait. You can't just say that and move on.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, My. Both my father, father's family, mother's family, both royal family. Okay, and my parents.

[Trevor Noah]

But help us understand because, you know, as you know, from South Africa, sometimes people will be from royal bloodlines, but we mean, like, chiefs and clans, and it doesn't mean that they live in a palace. So when you say royal family, what does that mean?

[Asma Khan]

Well, our palace, I should have lived in, but it's a crumbling edifice. Okay, so we have a palace and we have a fortress.

[Trevor Noah]

Got it.

[Asma Khan]

But we're not like, you know, we don't go back generations of royalty. So maybe only 200 years of, you know, becoming royal. Before that, we were thieves.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, isn't that all royals?

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I'm being for real, though. Which royals just started as royals?

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eugene]

So we still need a visit to the uk. Yeah, let's knock out that diamond. No, but.

[Trevor Noah]

But let's be honest now. Which royals did not start as thieves? Now we're gonna act like you just. Just born and ordained a royal. No, if you want to be a royal, you've got to steal enough for long enough that you become so powerful that you. Then you declare that you're royal.

[Asma Khan]

You declare that you're royal, and then

[Trevor Noah]

your lineage starts to. Now clean it up.

[Asma Khan]

So, like, you know, our ancestors claimed that they were descended from the sun.

[Trevor Noah]

There you go.

[Asma Khan]

And, you know, descend from sun and moon and, you know, basically. So we're basically thugs. We used to loot caravans, the caravans going across the desert.

[Ad]

Wow.

[Asma Khan]

We looted caravans.

[Eugene]

Part of your heritage.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, yeah. So that's why you were thugs and we then basically became mercenaries. Yeah, that's a separate thing as well. But we were. Not that we stole. We just stole. Didn't take money to. And essentially then we were made royals and quietened down and given land, a lot of land. And we were very rich after that. But they would have wanted me to marry in that same kind of. I don't wanna use the word lightly, but it's class. They wanted me to marry in that same kind of level of, you know, of the other families that, you know, my sister had got married to or other cousins. That ain't happening with me because everybody who is a feudal and has a feudal son, I would beat at cricket, so. And I would probably beat at boxing too. I would beat at everything.

[Trevor Noah]

And it sounds like you were fierce at cricket, the way you talk about

[Asma Khan]

how much you played cricket. I was so embarrassed because recently I met in a random place. This guy was like, you know, I was your neighbor. I used to play cricket with you. And then suddenly my bad luck. You know, there are times when the room gets quiet. He said, and you hit me with a cricket bat. And suddenly I was like, oh, my God, I remember him. I remember hitting him with a cricket bat.

[Trevor Noah]

You remember him?

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, I remember.

[Trevor Noah]

Hit him on purpose or.

[Ad]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

Why do you don't accidentally hit people with cricket bats?

[Eugene]

You know what I'm saying?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.

[Asma Khan]

No, no, no, no. It was.

[Eugene]

And the person who was pushing the bull.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, you should know.

[Eugene]

Intention versus mistakes.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. So I did hit him because he was cheating.

[Trevor Noah]

And how was he cheating?

[Asma Khan]

He told me I was out.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh.

[Asma Khan]

And I wasn't out. And we didn't have. Because nobody wants to be an umpire.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Nobody wants to get.

[Asma Khan]

It's a kind of. It's mob rule. They all declare that you're out, but when the bowler says you're out, then kind of too many people were saying that I was out. I was the only girl in the whole guy.

[Trevor Noah]

But did he.

[Eugene]

How did he.

[Trevor Noah]

Because I wanted.

[Eugene]

Why did you hit him?

[Asma Khan]

I hit him because I was not. No. Also the bat was mine. I took the bat home.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn. Asma was out here running these cricket streets.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So when I went to India, I saw like huge fields where there's just.

[Asma Khan]

No, we didn't play.

[Trevor Noah]

There's like a hundred cricket.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Games happening at the same time.

[Asma Khan]

And that's. That's the great. This is our religion. Cricket is obsession in India. No, we played on the street and then we had some of the string stopping cars and then we would all clear out. So we played just outside our house but on the street.

[Ad]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

And then because in the 80s we had a Marxist government running Bengal. So there were very frequent strikes. You know, there was a lot of labor unrest at that time. So then we would go onto the main street because there were no cars and because mobs were burning cars that were going around, we knew no car was on the street. Then we played on a big road and then we could have like a lot of space.

[Eugene]

Cuz you're lord.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

Otherwise we had. We used to just play on a narrow road outside my house.

[Trevor Noah]

What was your forte? Bowling or batting?

[Asma Khan]

Bowling.

[Eugene]

Bowling. I can tell.

[Asma Khan]

Bowling.

[Trevor Noah]

Why did you assume bowling fierce? Oh, okay.

[Asma Khan]

I was to bowl. But the thing is that. Yeah. So I was so embarrassed and everybody turned around and I was just died of embarrassment because I was so apologetic to him. I apologized like you know, 40, 50 years ago. I hit him and I told him I was really sad. No, I don't think so hard. He did cry, but it wasn't that hard. It was more. More the humiliation.

[Trevor Noah]

You can tell how much you've changed. You. You've gone the opposite way. Cuz you go, the guy says, you hit me with a cricket bat. And then you're like, I apologize, I apologize. I feel like in that situation you go, someone goes, you hit me with the cricket bat and you go, do you want me to do it again? Shut up. You want me to do it again? Bringing this up in 40 years later. Do you want me to do it again?

[Eugene]

No.

[Asma Khan]

That was very embarrassing. And because I couldn't recognize him, he kept saying, can. Do you recognize me? Do you recognize me? And you know how this.

[Trevor Noah]

That means you hit him hard. If he remembers, 40 years later, you. You did a good one.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. So. And I couldn't. I was too embarrassed. I said, no, I can't.

[Eugene]

Did you remember that at the beginning?

[Asma Khan]

No, I didn't remember. You know, people change in 40 years. So I might recognize him. But then he told me, but you hit me with a bad nudge immediately who he was. I knew his name. I knew the match. I knew exactly where we were. And I remember hitting him. Yeah. I'm not proud of this. I am very embarrassed that I hit people when I was. But then in cricket, that's how problem is when you. When you're very young and you play street cricket, these things happen, but they're not very frequent.

[Trevor Noah]

So I think. I think we need more of those things. You know, we were talking about Jonathan Hates on the podcast a while ago, but, like, in general, Eugene and I talk about this. I talk about it with my friends. I think there's a shortage of that in the world today. And I don't mean it in like an old man, like, in my day, you used to. No, I think it. I think it was great that we used to live in a world where kids would go outside, have their own conflicts, have their own resolutions, have their own stories, have. But also, you define your own world without your parents.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you get what I'm saying? You define your own world without an authority figure that's looming over you. I think now we're like growing a generation of people who are always looking to something and not. Not just doing this. Just what is this conversation? What is this disagreement? What is this lesson that you're learning? You're swimming. That's something that's formed you as Eugene, you know, whether you. Whether you like it or not. And I always wonder what would happen to people when their whole lives have been defined by the moments that they had with their parents. Because they never had moments alone, essentially.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, I love that kids used to do that. I wish more kids would do that, go outside, get hit with a cricket.

[Asma Khan]

It's a very different world. And the thing is, you can see this. When the moment there is a crisis, and it's so much worse after Covid, you know, I run a restaurant. You know, i41, staff. The moment there's a crisis, the fear and the Panic. There is no attempt like, you know, you know, advice that, you know, use your arms, get out. Because the thing is that when you have been in a difficult situation and you overcome, there is a memory. It's in your DNA. You now remember, it alters your DNA, that you did it, that you got out of it. And whenever I've had terrible things happen to me, and the success is a. It's a veneer that hides behind a lot of battles that I'm. I still have to fight, which no one else has to, who's in my position. But I have to. I worry about this younger generation for whom, you know, challenge is something that is so different from what we faced. You know, it's. It's not that drowning moment. It's not that panic. It's not that. And you worry. And I've spent a lot of time as young people now telling them that you are the future leaders. You must believe in yourself. If you do not believe in yourself, no one will believe in you. And as a leader, you must be willing to go out first. When you go into battle, you carry that sword. And maybe it's because I come from this ancient warrior tribe, but I remember this as a child. My father would always say, you know, you've got to stand up, you've got to believe, because most of the battle is won in your head, because otherwise you're lost. If you don't back yourself, no one will back you.

[Ad]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And why should they?

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, absolutely. But there's a whole generation now who doesn't think that this is a thing that, you know, that you back yourself. And it's. I worry. I worry a lot. But I'm also optimistic because I hope that they grow a backbone, they grow resilience in their souls, and they stand up for justice and right and equality.

[Trevor Noah]

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To me that's amazing because I don't know about you, but I feel like our generation wouldn't have booed the AI institutional thing, but we were dealing with like interpersonal scuffles and family and life and friends, you know what I mean? We were almost dealing with like the micro and they're dealing with the macro, I feel like. And so maybe they'll be. I don't know, I don't want to use the word weaker, but maybe they'll be a little less resilient than we are in some interpersonal instances.

[Ad]

But.

[Trevor Noah]

But I think on a societal level, the younger generation is coming through with a fierceness that I wish we had sometimes.

[Eugene]

To be honest, I also think us not. I'll speak for our generation growing up the way we did. Our parents are not around because they couldn't be around.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that's true.

[Eugene]

So that's one thing. And what I've noticed is how we behaved was totally influenced by what we had. So if your parent goes to work, then at the end of the month, in 30 days, they get a salary. That salary gets to do whatever needs to be done so that life can go on you. I understood from a very early age that soon time will come for me to find a job.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

And be that person. So every moment after school was a good time with my friends because I knew it wasn't promised. It wasn't. I didn't see any other 25 year olds having a good time with us at the dam. So I knew that when you get older, you're gonna have to dress a certain way, get a job, have responsibility, stay in the back room of your house until you meet someone and then afford a house of your own. So there was always that moment of, I have to enjoy this. I have to play soccer after school, I have to go play with my friends, we have to go hunt for birds, we have to go learn how to swim. We have to share one BMX bicycle amongst the 10 of us. And one soccer ball so the other one gets responsibility with their Christmas monies. You know, when the other one gets a bmx, the other one gets a ball, the other one gets a this, the other one. So we had this communal. We were bonded by our trauma because we saw what it did to our parents. And it happens, especially when you look at pictures, when you think, my mom was 35 with three kids at that time, it's crazy. And she already Been working for this long.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Eugene]

And then waking up at this time and earning this much. And then I go, what excuse do I have when a flight is delayed, when this happens, when that happens? So I get to look at life like that. And I was fortunate enough from an early age that I would wake up in the morning and go, let's get it started. I'd never struggled waking up, I never struggled getting ready for school because I knew that as soon as you leave, the good times begin. I hated sleeping because I was like, ah, now we have to end the good times.

[Trevor Noah]

The good times have come to an end.

[Eugene]

Yeah, the good times have come to an end.

[Trevor Noah]

But where did I. I want to understand, like, how your journey leads to food. Because, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, the girl who's out playing cricket and hitting people with a bat and writing poetry and playing guitar, and in none of these stories are you mentioning food. And yet, sitting here with you at this table, your name is more synonymous with food than it is with cricket or with assault or with guitar or with poetry.

[Eugene]

Grievous, poorly, harmed.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean?

[Eugene]

So.

[Trevor Noah]

So I want to understand, like, where. Where does that happen? You're growing up as this young girl in Kolkata, India.

[Eugene]

You're.

[Trevor Noah]

You're forging your own path. But where. Where does food come in?

[Asma Khan]

I love to eat. When I was growing up in India, I had always presumed that I would marry a prince and I would be some princess in some palace and I'd have lots of cooks and be spoiled. It wasn't something that excited me. It's not really something I wanted to do, but I kind of presumed. So I didn't know how to cook because girls didn't cook, really. I mean, in our family, because. Especially my house, because my mother had a catering business, so we had more cooks than everybody else. So, you know, it was mad. Our house was like, constantly full of food and

[Trevor Noah]

just to cut you off there. So help me understand. I don't know how, you know, sometimes we'll simplify India or make it seem like it's like one place everywhere. There were some parts of India that I went to where people said most people sort of weren't cooking, they were just getting the food from place. Is that. Is that true? How does that work?

[Asma Khan]

So, I mean, the thing is that there is. I always find it challenging when people think India as like a kind of a homogeneous.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what. That's what I mean.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. And it's never like that and there are huge differences from the north to the south. But also our food wise, you know, there's wheat growing areas where people have roti, there are rice growing areas. Wheat can grow in drier soil. And for rice you need a lot of water. Rice grows in water. And so there's loads of differences. And we are a very even three villages away in India. You know, the baghar, which is the tempering of dal, is done differently. So we are, we're not a society where people are all together. There's huge differences in people. And in my household, my father and my mother never ate the same food. My father came from the north. If he saw a fish and if he saw eye of fish, he would just like almost pass out. He found. And my mother loved fish because she grew up and was born near the ocean and there were rivers and my dad was landlocked, never saw fish when he was growing up. So there's huge differences in my parents. But because I grew up in Calcutta, which is the food capital of India, best kind of food, you know, it was, you know, so many cultures, you know, were there, you know, the food there is incredible. I didn't learn how to cook because I didn't have to. When my marriage was arranged with my husband, who was teaching at Cambridge University through an aunt. And my poor husband was like, you know, oh my God, I don't think I want to do it. I convinced him overnight.

[Eugene]

To cook?

[Asma Khan]

No, to marry me. I told him, I said, you know, you walk away from this, it's the biggest mistake of your life. You have no idea what I'm capable of. I am going to bring so much joy in your life.

[Eugene]

Where is this happening?

[Asma Khan]

So, yeah, I convinced my husband and yeah, it didn't happen. Poor guy, he, he's a very innocent man. He's still married to me. He requires a medal. You know, he believed in the story and he's, you know, very.

[Trevor Noah]

How old are you in this situation?

[Asma Khan]

So I was 21, 22.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Asma Khan]

And I realized this is my one chance to marry an intelligent guy because

[Trevor Noah]

I'd asked my parents, wait, so this is also arranged. So the Tinder family had gotten together, found.

[Eugene]

That's why you're my friend, get down to the gospel.

[Asma Khan]

So they found this person, they lied to him and they brought him to Calcutta under some pretext, which is not to see a girl. Cuz he would never have come. He would never have come because, you know, my husband was not into all this arranged marriage stuff. He was teaching in Oxford and then he was teaching at Cambridge in his kind of ivory tar academic professor in economics jacket. So. Yeah.

[Ad]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

A tweed jacket. Absolutely. You know. Yeah. And beard and cycling with, you know, and looking like Batman in his black guy. So he was that guy. And so. And also on paper, I. I am feudal. I come from royalty.

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Asma Khan]

So I'm everything that he's against politically. So politically, okay. So he's left of center, you know, works with, you know, works on poverty, on corruption, on, you know, on, you know, failing states, all of that.

[Eugene]

So he's not trying to end up with some princess.

[Asma Khan]

No, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I realized, oh, wow. Because I told my mother, please, I want to marry an intelligent person. You might find any intelligent man, I will marry him. So they found this guy. But I realized I have one evening to convince him, and I told him this. I said, you know, look at me and don't see the princess in me, because I am, you know, I am fun. I do this, I can do that. I didn't tell him I could cook, but I did tell him I don't know how to cook. But then this was much later, after he'd agreed to marry me. Yeah. He told me, oh, I don't believe in gender roles. I'll cook. I know how to cook. You don't worry. You just come and, you know, enjoy your life. The last three months. Then I went into this kind of princess kind of mode where I had this grand wedding, which I planned, you know, everything, including all the food. Yeah. So it was. It was so good that I was. Managed to. I managed to convince him to marry me. And the relief of all these aunts. Somebody agreed to marry Asma. And all the aunts that we didn't want to come to the wedding came just to make sure that they watched the wedding. My mother was like, you know, why is everybody saying yes to the wedding? I think because they're coming to make sure it happens.

[Eugene]

To witness.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, to witness this absolutely incredible experience of seeing me getting married. Yeah. And I got married, and it was very exciting. And I didn't know how to cook. Came to Cambridge, ate the really bad food that Mushtaq made. Shockingly bad food.

[Eugene]

But he said he was good.

[Asma Khan]

No, I didn't say he was good. He just knew how to cook. That's what he said.

[Trevor Noah]

He just said he knew how to cook. There's a difference.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

It's the same way. When you told me, you know how to cook, I was like, oh, boy, here we go. Cause Eugene did this for Me. Eugene was like. He was like, oh, why don't I. I can cook your. Your favorite dish or whatever. Cause I was trying to. So I love pig trotters. Yeah, right.

[Eugene]

Generally.

[Asma Khan]

Any.

[Trevor Noah]

Any, like.

[Eugene]

So it's like, you can't call them pig trotters.

[Asma Khan]

Okay. Any hoof, pork. Okay, whatever. Trotter, trotter, any hoof.

[Trevor Noah]

Any. You know what I mean?

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

So we have paella.

[Trevor Noah]

Is that what.

[Eugene]

It's.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Ad]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. So pig, cow, you name it. Just like, anything with the hoof. I'm in. I mean, the gelatinous.

[Asma Khan]

I love gelatin. Yeah, of course.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, so you can't really find much of it, especially, like, Hunanese. I think that's how you pronounce a cuisine in. In South Africa. So Eugene one day says to me, he goes, yo, I. Why don't I. I can cook that for you. Then I was like, shame. My friend. He's really. This is like, a lovely gesture, but completely unnecessary. Do you know what I mean? And then he was like.

[Eugene]

He's like.

[Trevor Noah]

I was like, what do you mean? Then Eugene said, oh, I cook. Then I went, ah, I understand what he means. He means that he will put food together on a stove, heat it up, and then ingest it. Now, many people can cook.

[Asma Khan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Most people shouldn't cook. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I've met many people who can cook.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I've met many people who say, you should come over. I will cook.

[Asma Khan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And then when you go, there you go. I pray this never happens again. I pray this. This thing you've done to me should never be done to another person. If I could call the Hague, I would. Because of what. In fact, I'm shocked that you spent time doing this. The fact that you said, we'll be busy for the next few hours, and then this is what you made.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, my God.

[Trevor Noah]

This. So when people tell me they can cook, I. I take it as a. Yeah, So I understand. But he. He can actually, like, make food that is delicious. Yeah, but I understand what you're saying. He said he can cook.

[Asma Khan]

He can cook.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. And that's what he did.

[Asma Khan]

He cooked.

[Trevor Noah]

The food was no longer raw is what it means. That's all it means.

[Asma Khan]

It was cooked. But that's when I really realized that I could not change the weather of where I'd moved to. And I come from Bengal, where the trees are lush, and I moved to Cambridge in January and all the trees had lost their leaves. I'm that generation where we didn't have Internet, obviously. You know, I predate all of that. And because of the government that we had in West Bengal, we didn't see a lot of films from abroad. So you didn't see a lot of western films. I saw Love Story and I remember crying. Ryan o', Neill, oh, my God. So gorgeous. And then I saw snow, and you know that. But how do you go to an encyclopedia in a library to see pictures? I'm that generation. So I was a shock, you know, I felt. And then there was this bad food at home. Then I went out, it was bloody freezing, and all the bark in the tree was raw. And I felt this was me. That the tree would never have a spring. I would never have a spring.

[Eugene]

Oh, wow.

[Asma Khan]

And it was this kind of. I was so lost. And I yearned for home. And I realized that the one thing I could do to change things, I couldn't even talk to my parents because it's no Internet, no mobile, nothing. And I realized that I had to cook because in the aromas in that kitchen, I would have felt the presence of my mother, because I would have felt she'd come next to me. And it was food became then not something I ate, but it became everything. My identity, my culture, my religion, my everything, my name. And so I came to start cooking not out of a sense of sorry, I just, you know, my mom is wonderful, but I realize how lucky I am every day she lives there and she cooks for me. And now she's kind of not remembering things too well that she still manages to cook for me. It's a privilege and an honor. But, you know, 30 odd years ago, I cooked and I felt as the aromas of the spices and everything, and that I was connecting not just to my mother, but to my ancestors, to the matriarchs who had gone. I was now connected through food. So for me, food is not about, you know, yes, I love eating and I enjoy cooking, but food for me is about identity, it's about power, it's about language. And so much of the challenges that we face today, we have not used food as one of the tools to talk about justice.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Asma Khan]

And, you know, there are, you know, there's things like that I will not use. I hesitate to use, like poppy seeds in my. In Bengal, poppy seeds is used a lot.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

But because I did my first degree in history, I know why we're using poppy seeds. We're using poppy seeds because the British forced the farmers on my land to grow poppy to get an entire population in China addicted to opium so that they could get tea for free, literally for nothing, and export it. Their desire for tea. They used farmers, my brothers on my land, to grow up. And the problem is that when you grow and they control the price. It was a cash crop. They controlled the price. They had a whole department controlling the price of poppy. The farmer had nothing to no money left to buy food. So his wife, the farmer's wife. Poppy seeds are hard. Crushed them, soaked it and crushed it so it filled the belly of the children. So they ate. They added poppy seeds to whatever little they had. I refuse to use poppy seeds. So food is not just about my identity. Food is also about speaking about injustice. And the fact that we don't talk about these things, it's almost like, you know, why should we talk about it? No, I want to talk about slavery, I want to talk about colonialism. I think that British children in school should be taught about the empire. Yes. Learn about the Tudor history and all of this. Very good. And, but you need to know. So when you push a child, a brown skinned, dark skinned child and say, go back home, you need to know why that person is there on the land. Why they, you know, they were invited as guests after the war. So many families are just, yeah, know

[Trevor Noah]

why they're there in the first place.

[Asma Khan]

Why are they here? Don't. The problem is they don't understand. They don't understand. The wealth of Britain was built on the blood of my people. And I see so much of the food, the fact the spices were traded and it's not just, you know, the Indian East India Company, the Dutch East India Company.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yes, the atrocities.

[Asma Khan]

We're well familiar with it and the atrocities. So I think that food should be a lesson in history and justice. And that is. I first came to food out of just loneliness. I missed my home, I missed my parents. I missed being a child and being free of responsibility in this ivory tower in this university. I was abandoned and left alone and I struggled. And you know, my husband's a nice guy, but, you know, he's an academic and a bad cook and, and, you

[Eugene]

know, and he's a Cardigan Jersey, Very,

[Asma Khan]

very below average cook. And you know, and he, like, Asma

[Trevor Noah]

still got that cricket bat out there. It's just metaphorical. Now that cricket bat is ready anytime.

[Asma Khan]

I didn't know. And he would spend the whole night writing and listening to opera. And I thought opera was the worst thing possible.

[Ad]

Wow.

[Asma Khan]

I never heard opera in my life.

[Trevor Noah]

Really? An academic.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. And it was like, you know, I'm dead. I want to listen to, you know, I want to listen to Bryan Adams. I want to listen to Madonna. You know, I was like in the 80s, kind of pop music.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, my God. I had to wait for him to go to lecture so I could listen to pop music. And it was a kind of crazy life, but because I understood that, wow, people don't get justice. They don't understand. Whose water is it? Whose land is it? You know, the trees that grow on either side of India and Pakistan. Yeah. Whose water is they being nourished by? You know, I think that's so important to understand. The roots go so deep down, borders are there. But, you know, even just a tree that grows, you know, where is the nourishment really coming from? And I've. I've always been interested in justice because, I mean, and that's why I did law and I went on to do a PhD because I think this is important to understand and to be unafraid, to challenge authority. Because with knowledge, the reason why there's so much racism and so easy to ignite, you know, hatred is ignorance. If people understood, you know, why is this, you know, Jamaican person sitting next to me in my class? I'm going to tell this person, you know, that, you know, go back home, I'm going to tell this South Asian child that your food smells, you know, your mom smells. Did you know that the wealth was built on spices? That is the base of that curry that that child has eaten? If you don't understand all of this, you're going to be ignorant and you will easily be swayed by people telling you random things or you've got to hate them. And it's, you know, the fact that, you know, an element in my skin inside has made me a shade darker. How am I a threat to you? I bring with me the vibrant culture, the color, the music, the spices. I bring life, you know, and yet you want to hate me because of the way I look, because of my skin tone. I pity you. I want to sit with you. I want to break bread with you. I want to tell you about my people. If you get up from that table, having eaten with me and still want to hate my people, I forgive you. Because that's my culture.

[Eugene]

Wow.

[Asma Khan]

I will let you go. But first I must be able to tell you the stories. This is why, you know, in the Quran, the Torah, the Bible, there's always think about breaking bread.

[Trevor Noah]

Always.

[Asma Khan]

But for me, that is so important. It's not about peace. It's that shared moment when I break bread with you and you. We have had a shared moment. We've all had our different journeys coming to this table. When we eat the same thing, we talk about what connects us. You might tell me about the bread you ate, or you tell me about something that you ate. And then we all realize there is more that connects us than divides us. Food is the greatest way to connect people. And as an immigrant, as a Muslim living in England, I built a successful restaurant. And I always say I could only have done it in London, where people are open hearted. I managed to kind of build a business, an immigrant business with an all immigrant female kitchen. And we have been embraced. I don't know many other cities where I could have done it. I haven't tried it anywhere else. But food has been used for too long. As if we become consumers and leaving religion out of it, and completely leaving religion out of it, we no longer say grace. When we see food, we take our phone and take a picture, and if it's a nice picture, we post it on Instagram, we send it to our friends. It's become a tool of how successful you are. You know, I'm in this really posh place, I'm eating this fancy stuff. Or even if you're in street food, you know, because you've had the ability to travel to Mali or something, it's a signifier. It tells you who the food is. Part of that storytelling that, you know, I'm not just in this cool place. This is what I'm eating. And we've become consumers. We see it as our right, the fact that eating is a privilege, a privilege that not everybody has, not in the past, even today, that hunger is in our midst. So unlike a lot of other chefs where they use food to show off, to impress people, to make artists. Yeah, I'm no artist, but I am the storyteller you need in your life.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, damn, I love that.

[Asma Khan]

So this is the thing. I never see my. You know, and I think it's so important because this is. Everyone can relate to that beautiful meal. And, you know, in our culture, not anymore. Now kids are sitting on tablets and watching stuff, you know, you see. And I don't remember, of course, I was too small, but I remember seeing other children being made to sit on the lap of the mother and fed by hand. And the touch of the of on the lips of the rice. Wow. And you can't replicate this as an adult, but I want people to understand that food is spiritual. Food is healing. It's the most powerful language of love. And even if someone turns around and says, oh, you're all fuddy duddy, and this is all, I don't care. I want to be emotional. I have the right to be emotional. And I have the right to use food as part of that emotional language.

[Trevor Noah]

Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this.

[Asma Khan]

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[Asma Khan]

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[Trevor Noah]

Well, people might say that to you, but I would challenge anyone to think of their favorite meals and disassociate them from a memory. Yeah, there's. There's nothing, there's nothing more powerful than biting something, drinking something, tasting something, and immediately being taken back to a moment, a memory, a person, an experience, a time, a place. You can't. You can't.

[Eugene]

The.

[Trevor Noah]

The other. This was one of my favorite moments because I'll remember it. I don't think she will, but one of my best friend's daughters, she's now, I guess, you know, in the 2018 months or something. Somewhere that, you know, baby ages this all, whatever. So they were eating. We're eating Thai food together. So it's myself and it's him and it's his two girls, right? Twins, really young.

[Ad]

And.

[Trevor Noah]

And all they wanted to eat was the rice. So they keep going more. That's. They only got like 10 words, maybe now more. So I put rice on the table.

[Asma Khan]

We eat.

[Trevor Noah]

We eat more, put more rice on the table. They don't eat the curry or anything else that comes with the food. But then on, like, one corner of the rice, some of the spicy sauce had, like, touched the rice. So Cora takes the rice, she puts it in her mouth, and then, like, you know, when you. You can see the light. Something that has never happened is happening now. So she first, like, she glitches, and then she, like, opens her mouth to try and take it out, but there's nothing there anymore. And she looks. And then she looks at us, and then she looks at her dad and she's like. And then, you know when the spice is, like, warming up inside the mouth? Inside the mouth, inside the mouth.

[Eugene]

Slow release.

[Trevor Noah]

Yo, bruh. The way she cried, but it was like a funny cry. Cause she wasn't crying. Like somebody was hurting her. She was crying out of confusion. And literally I said to him, I was like, you do realize I was like this. Obviously she stopped crying. Cause it wasn't the worst thing in the world, but I was like, this is a memory that comes from, like, this moment. I'm like you. And he'll tell you, when it comes to food, I'm exactly the same as you. Because things happen around food, you know, friendships are made, stories are shared, hearts are opened. There's like a.

[Eugene]

He ignored me when the trotters came out.

[Trevor Noah]

Ah, my man. My man. I did the opposite. How grateful was I to you?

[Eugene]

Yeah, you were.

[Trevor Noah]

I sent this guy pictures later on that night of the. Of like. Like, you don't even understand because when. When somebody prepares food for you. And that's one of the biggest reasons I. I'm so sad that we have food delivery services. I understand they've made life convenient. I understand it.

[Eugene]

You say this all the time, but

[Trevor Noah]

I think we take for granted and we haven't yet studied what we lose. When you don't hear the food being prepared, you don't see the food being prepared. You also, most importantly, do not see

[Asma Khan]

who is preparing your food that is so important.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You don't see who is preparing your food? And to your point, if we live in a world where we are separated from the labor that is providing anything for us, how can we then appreciate said labor? You know, how do we even begin to. And I know some people might be like, oh, that's a. You know, to reduce it to something. But I think of somebody like Mohamed Salah in Liverpool, right. Mohamed Salah demonstrably changed people's attitudes towards Muslims in and around Liverpool. And I'd argue in England, just by being himself and doing his thing. But would the effect have been the same if you didn't see him? You just heard about the goals being scored, but you didn't know who scored them? Someone just scored goals for Liverpool.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And God assists for Liverpool. It wouldn't be the same. There's something powerful in seeing the person prepare the food. Who is this person? Oh, who are those people in the kitchen? Who is in my kitchen? Who's that thing is so magical. And I think it creates a gratitude in us that we. We've taken for granted.

[Asma Khan]

Yes, yes. And I've, you know, I haven't now I'm just moving locations to a bigger site in London.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, congratulations.

[Asma Khan]

Thank you. It's stressful, but it has an open kitchen. And the thing with open kitchens in London, especially central London, because of the cost of rent, all kitchens are in the basement. You don't see the mathematics of the space.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't see the people.

[Asma Khan]

You don't see the people there where the bathrooms are usually in the basement. And it doesn't make sense because that's the money space, you know, massive open kitchen. But for me, the honour comes from that. I have two grandmothers, I've got three mothers, I've got a kitchen of 12 women who are cooking and singing in rhythm. And so we are now moved to a bigger open kitchen. I've always, you know, I love Kingley Court, where I was right now, but I've had to move because, you know, it was just getting too small for us. And I found this amazing site and it's in a. Just off Piccadilly Circus. And these things matter because this is my flag in the ground. For all those women and all those men who cook hidden behind walls, I have opened it up. Watch us. We are cooking not as a show, we're not trying to impress you, but we want to remind you that someone is laboring for your food. And even just, you know, I do a lot of work with farmers and I've always felt that, you know, the way Chefs look at ingredients. Is their God given right?

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

And anyone who comes to my restaurant will never get okra. I do not want a jet lagged okra on my table because it has flown from Africa or Asia or in a plane. I do not want. So I only serve, you know, some stuff comes from Europe because of British weather. You have no choice. And a lot of it is British. But you know, I make aloo gopi matar. I make really traditional Indian stuff. No, fusion stuff.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

But I use ingredients close by because I think that this whole thing of hospitality. The customer is always right. No, the customer is wrong if they want to eat out of season.

[Trevor Noah]

No. Do you know that that phrase, by the way, this is one of my, my great joys in life. He'll. He'll tell you about this. I love more than most things in the world digging into the history of. Yeah. The anthropology of phrases.

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

The customers always write. Do you know that? That's not the phrase. Really? That is not the full phrase.

[Asma Khan]

Okay, I'm going to get a must listen now.

[Trevor Noah]

No, really. So we've grown up. I grew up thinking that. Right. I remember. I think we heard the first we heard everywhere.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Customers always right. That's what they'd say. The customer's always right. And we believe it means that if a person is buying or doing something, then they are right and they must be catered to 100%. No, the full phrase is not the customer is always right. The phrase is. It's. I'll read it out to you so I get it proper, but it's basically the customer's always right in matters of taste. But when it comes to. I'll read it to you.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, my God.

[Ad]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eugene]

The.

[Trevor Noah]

Basically the full phrase means this idiot doesn't know anything. They. They're right when it comes to like what they want to choose for themselves, but it doesn't mean that they're right.

[Eugene]

Oh, man.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I, I'll read you the full one.

[Asma Khan]

I have no idea.

[Trevor Noah]

I promise you.

[Asma Khan]

So how did you dig this up?

[Trevor Noah]

I just love it every time I hear a phrase that doesn't make sense to me. Cuz I started. So. Okay, the first one was Blood is thicker than water. I fought with this my whole life. Right. Because I remember like my mom would. You would talk about struggles with her family and I would go, but mom, you. You know, family is the most important thing. Blood is thicker than water. You. You have to. And then I would meet people who struggled with their families, people who, who

[Eugene]

can cut Them off.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. People who had families that were, you know, running the spectrum, everything from abusive all the way through to just dismissive, let's say. But people realized that they were not of their family. Right. And what would society always say to us?

[Eugene]

Blood is thicker than water.

[Trevor Noah]

Hey, blood is thicker than water.

[Ad]

You.

[Trevor Noah]

You go and you make up with your family. Blood is thicker than water. Your family, you can't choose your family. It's the only family. And they'd always say, blood's thicker than water. And then one day I discovered the full phrase, and it is. The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. That's the full phrase. The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. It means the exact opposite when they say blood is thicker than water, which they shortened and then people misunderstood.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

What they mean is the blood that you make in the blood pact, in a bond.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

With friendship or with chosen family is more important than the water in the womb. You didn't choose this person. They might not have chosen you. You don't choose the people who surround them. No, that's not from it. It's not as important as who you choose.

[Asma Khan]

So who are the idiots who have used it? And then we are mutated it to.

[Trevor Noah]

No, because they shorten it. They just shorten.

[Eugene]

The time goes. It gets shorter and shorter.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I'll. I'll read you. So that the. I think it actually came, funny enough from Selfridges, if I remember correctly. Yeah. It was. It was like a full, you know, and it just.

[Eugene]

It.

[Trevor Noah]

It morphed over time. Oh, yeah, yeah. Here it was. So it was. All the person said was, the customer's always right in matters of taste. And that was it. But it was in matters of taste.

[Eugene]

But we left it at the customer.

[Trevor Noah]

He's always right. They're not.

[Eugene]

Now I'm wondering what cash is from.

[Asma Khan]

This is so interesting because I had. I do have difficult people from my own community. My, you know, South Asian, especially men. Someone asked me that, can you take the. The. The price of the dal off the menu? And so they. So my manager came, I said, we're taking the dal off because he didn't like it. I said, no, but he ate it. I'm going to go and ask this customer is always right kind of situation happened. So I walked up to him and I said, you know, did you not like the dal because you ate it and you want to take it off? He said, it doesn't taste like the dal my mother made. And I Was like, yeah, but your mother's not working in my kitchen. I'm so sorry. So I was like, you know. So I always tell yo, Asma, you

[Eugene]

are busy kicking that Michelin star away day by day.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, no, no, no, no. That's. I never aspired for a Michelin star because Michelin is so the whole basis is excluding people like me because they're looking for a standard which is so French, which is so white, which is so much about alcohol pairing. It is about, you know, the appearance. If I was given a 1 inch food on a 10 inch plate, this is Michelin standard. And I have something drizzled and rough and there's a poof and a puff. And if I need to eat so much edible grass and edible flowers, I'd go graze in a field.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't water on my plate and

[Asma Khan]

I don't want to pay. Sit for two hours getting one inch food at a time. After the third one inch food is, I won't even know what I'm eating.

[Eugene]

I, I always look at that stand and I'm thinking, that was the biggest food colonization scam that has ever been perpetuated. People want to travel for so long for familiarity. They wanted to eat what they know everywhere they went. How crazy is that? Then that became the standard of what good food is.

[Trevor Noah]

Again, that, that one was an interesting one. Is like when you look at the. I love that you essentially, if I, if I heard you, the subtext of what you're saying is like, we take for granted how political food is and not political as in like who did you vote for? Not vote for. No. It tells a very complicated story of the people that came before it. You know what I mean? There's no food that does not contain a story.

[Asma Khan]

Yes. Who moved?

[Trevor Noah]

Who was forced to move? How were they forced to move? What did they do to survive?

[Eugene]

Or they forced to grow?

[Trevor Noah]

It's all, all in the food. Right. The same thing goes for those quantities of food. So if you, if you look at old, you know, like history, you know, and, and like we only have images, obviously there are no photos. But the stories that were told, what was the way you displayed your wealth through massive amounts of food?

[Eugene]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

The richest would eat gluttonous amounts of food.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

They would have banquets that would go on for days.

[Asma Khan]

Yes.

[Eugene]

A pig with nipple in its mouth.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. And the way you would show that you are rich is by eating more food than you needed to eat. Getting big, throwing it up, by the way.

[Asma Khan]

Come back again.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. They'd go, they'd throw up, they'd come back and eat some more. And so this is happening all throughout, like England and France and all of these places. But this is like how the rich live because the peasants can't have as much food. Then what happens? We discover this thing called farming and industrial farming, and we create this new way of.

[Eugene]

Of.

[Trevor Noah]

Of mass producing food. Right. What does it do to the price of food? It brings it down. What does it now mean for the poor people? They can also eat more. And then the rich people went, I don't want to be the same as they also have a full plate and I have a full. We all the same now. I don't want that. And so now the true measure of wealth is how little you eat was to show how much you could pay for how little you could get. And so it became this thing of

[Asma Khan]

like, oh, this is the best explanation I've heard of it.

[Trevor Noah]

It literally became that. And so it became a. It's like poor people have a plate full of food. And so the way you would show how classy you are was that you had so little, it was just a tiny little amount. And, oh, I would graze and I'll nibble and that's dainty and dainty. That became the new signifier of class and power and wealth. And poor people had lots of food and like, you know what I mean? And it's actually crazy how that thing goes back and forth.

[Asma Khan]

It is. It's so fascinating what you've just said, because it deeply concerns me. And also in India, you know, for US food, there's rice, there's roti, there's things now, all Indian fine dining, the ones that are Michelin star, they serve food that I don't recognize.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

And the fact that it's gone into this one inch stuff with no rice, no bread, no nothing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Asma Khan]

It's unrecognizable. And they put caviar and they've put, you know, truffle oil, which is like the worst thing in the universe. In any case.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you.

[Asma Khan]

Thank you on everything. Oh, no, no. Absolutely overrated beyond belief. And I think French food is also overrated.

[Trevor Noah]

Just that damn Asmar. Shots fired.

[Asma Khan]

No, because, you know, so much butter and cream, you know, wow. You know, I put so much butter and cream in my shoe, it might taste nice, but it is. It just is, you know, and no offense, Matt, you know, it's a great cuisine. I'm sure that, you know, this brigade system, all of that, they have a Great history. And I'm not insulting any French cuisine. Please, can I have that caveat? Like, yeah, please, Yeah. I love French men, and I love French cuisine. Sorry if I said that, but it's true. It's true.

[Trevor Noah]

The French men as well. This has nothing to do with the men.

[Asma Khan]

No, no, no.

[Trevor Noah]

This has nothing they to do with the men. Asma was like, I'm sorry about the. I love French men, and I love

[Eugene]

the food as well.

[Trevor Noah]

How we weren't saying nothing about the men, and Asma just threw that in out of nowhere.

[Asma Khan]

One thing I did a law degree. So, you know, this is that you cover yourself at every.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, okay, okay. So this is you now.

[Asma Khan]

So it's me building defense.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, got it, got it, got it, got it.

[Asma Khan]

Building up the case for possible deniability.

[Eugene]

Case.

[Asma Khan]

I, I, I, I get into trouble. Let me try everything. You know, one. Oh, I have to say, I like French women as well.

[Trevor Noah]

These are all clauses. These are clauses.

[Asma Khan]

But, I mean, yes, I think it's over. I think the problem is the fact that very few people say this, and, you know, I want to say this, that there's a lot of racism when it comes to what is elevated cuisine, of course, and the fact that French, Italian, even, and when it comes to Asian, now you have, you know, Korean and Japanese food is seen as elevated. But so much of our cuisine, you know, and especially when you look at Africa and you look at large swathes of South Asia as well, you know, Middle east, it's seen as cheap and cheerful. Our food is all about wholesome, cheerful food. This fact that we are not seen as sophisticated. I remember someone telling me, asmaa, no one's gonna pay £139 to come for your biryani. We sold out within minutes. And I said, no, this is my price tag. I want to end this monopoly of this tattooed, you know, aggressive, testosterone driven madman who's in a stainless steel empire beating up people, allowed to beat us. Yes. Shouting and screaming in this tormented soul has produced this dish. I'll get indigestion. Please. I don't want to eat it. And I just feel that, you know, why is it that we are, you know, we. Our food heritage in Africa, in everywhere goes back, you know, centuries. We grew food. You know, this is the cradle of civilization. We actually, you know, so much of what we eat today is because of what happened in our lands, nourished in our lands, our soil. Please don't dismiss us. Do not walk over the souls of our ancestors and see that Our food is not sophisticated. Today, the world eats because of us, because of our farmers. And in the dust that flies are the roof or the soul of these amazing men and women who grew crops. No one is telling their story. And this is what bothers me that, you know, we are not seen. Our food is not seen as sophisticated. Immigrant food in too many places is seen as, you know, ethnic food. We are bracketed in. Yeah. And, you know, be cheap, be spicy, you know. And so in England, you have people who say, oh, you know, this is a hangover, you know, cure. You go off for a vindaloo. People go to these, you know, what they call curry houses and have beer and are aggressive and just drink a lot and eat a lot. Please stop.

[Eugene]

Because it's a desecration.

[Asma Khan]

Yes, it is. It is. And the problem is no one is saying it. And if it means that someone doesn't want to come to my restaurant because they find my politics uncomfortable, let them not come. Exactly. The king came to my restaurant. He was amazing. He was amazing. And I think that if the king of England can come to your restaurant, come into your kitchen and pack biryani for, you know, refugee families that were sitting outside, he was packing biryani for himself, but also for the refugee families, this is the great equalizer from one pot. Food is very powerful. We should be unafraid. But the problem is that in this desire to succeed, you will not find chefs talking about these things, not talking about power and equality. And you have this fringe of these people who I'm also uncomfortable with talking about, you know, environment and sustainability at a huge price tag. So this particular dish, the moisture in that was the rainforest from whatever. It dropped from a leaf. And this milk came, and the moon was full, and the cow was happy. And they sang a song, and they massaged the cow and then did yoga.

[Eugene]

The cow's cholesterol.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, yeah. So this also drives me mad because, again, you are twisting food into some kind of, you know, you're separating it out.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, I think essentially what's happening, you're right, is, you know, I always fall back on. On. On the phrase. It was a beautiful one that I. I read once. I think it was actually a British author who. She said. She said, I. I can't wait for the world to get over race so that we can realize we're all dealing with class. And fundamentally, that's all this is. Right?

[Eugene]

It is.

[Trevor Noah]

It is a way for people to define how much their class is superior to somebody else's. And it doesn't matter how they do it. So to your point, with quote unquote ethnic food, why is it ethnic? So then where's the center then? Where is the normal? If that's the ethnic. The second thing is, like, the food itself. I find it interesting, even when you're talking about it, that people will make it seem like those foods are not a default at all. They are being. They are the things you eat when you're going off the path.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eugene]

Adventurous.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Adventurous, yes. Oh, yeah.

[Asma Khan]

No, no.

[Trevor Noah]

I.

[Eugene]

Off the Putin track.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I couldn't. Then it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Adventurous is eating food that has no spice. That's adventurous. When I see people that eat food with no flavor, I'm like, wow, you're truly. You're adventurous. How do you eat flu? It has no flavor, bruh.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. The food that we like, I think

[Trevor Noah]

people take for granted how some of these things are used to define even what we're supposed to aspire to. Yeah, right. So to your point, you know, how many kids. I mean, adults now, but how many people would talk about when they were kids, Korean, Indian, you name it. They had distinct cuisines and they were embarrassed their whole lives as kids.

[Eugene]

Oh, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Embarrassed.

[Eugene]

They.

[Trevor Noah]

My best friend in school when I was growing up, Thiesan Pillai, hated the fact that his mom gave him curry every single day to take in a sandwich. We became friends mostly because of this. We swapped our curry. Like, I gave him the money that my mom would give me for food. He'd give me his curry sandwiches every day. When I'd eat it, I was like, bro, I don't understand how you don't think this is the greatest food ever. But most of it boiled down to the fact that he felt like it was, like, less than.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because the other kids were eating burgers and hot dogs and all the things you could buy.

[Eugene]

Cheese sandwiches.

[Ad]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then he had this curry sandwich that came in this little box.

[Eugene]

And the smell would obviously.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. When the tin open. But it's interesting how that. It's interesting how all of that becomes a signifier of your place in society and in the world is like, oh,

[Eugene]

I. I think we were able to measure. Growing up in the township, we were able to measure time of the day. We're able to measure what day of the week it was based on what food there was.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, definitely.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

Sunday had its own smell and flavor. After work, 5, 6.

[Trevor Noah]

Pumpkin Sunday, right? Yeah.

[Eugene]

After work, 5, 6. You'd be hard pressed to find any House in the township, in this cupboard that didn't have a box of curry. Curry powder.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

So there was this famous brand called Raja. There was just curry powder. So the staples in every township home. Onion, tomatoes, you know, this cabbage, on

[Trevor Noah]

a good day, spinach.

[Eugene]

But potatoes is a must.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, Potatoes are staple.

[Eugene]

But the elevator was always just a pinch of that curry powder. That box would last the whole month.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

But it just elevated the whole dish. And you would know when your mom is home, when you were playing in the streets, when you could just smell.

[Trevor Noah]

You'd smell it everywhere. You smell it in the whole neighborhood.

[Asma Khan]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

There was a fragrance that. It. It. I love that you say that. It was. It was. It was a. It was a. It was almost like a siren's call.

[Eugene]

Oh, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Home existed.

[Eugene]

It was a dinner bell. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Actually, this is something I've always wanted to know. I'm confused by this. So when I was in India, I would say curry. And then people were like, what are you talking about? Yeah, not really. So they'd go like, what do you love? And I'd be like, oh, I love curry. And they'd be like, what. What are you. What are you. What are you talking about? And then, like, once I said, like, even when I was there, I was like, nan. And the guy said, which nan? Then I was like, none of that.

[Eugene]

Non. None.

[Trevor Noah]

And he's like. And then the one guy said to me that, like, nan is bread.

[Asma Khan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And I was like, yes, I want some nun bread. And then he said, no, you're saying. And then he.

[Eugene]

And then he.

[Trevor Noah]

It was so, so cute the way he said it to me. He's like. He says, says trevor. He says, do you understand Right now you're saying, bread.

[Asma Khan]

Bread. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Then I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you basically came to me and you said, I want bread. Bread. And I was like, I don't understand.

[Asma Khan]

I love the Indian accent in the

[Trevor Noah]

Coming True because he said it. So like, he's like, yo.

[Eugene]

As a matter of fact, yeah.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So, okay. Help us understand. All of us who want to be initiated into this world, help us understand. So what is curry?

[Asma Khan]

It's not a. It's not. I didn't never heard of the word till I came to England. First time someone told me, do you know how to make curry? I was like, I don't know. I've never heard of it. It's an English word that the British used that they morphed probably from curry, which is a kind of, you know, South Indian kind of sauce, Spicy sauce. We don't know. Every dish has a name. Curry is not a name of anything. I never heard of it, and first time I heard of it was in 1992. I've heard the word curry. I'd never heard of it before. And it's really interesting because it's almost like they need to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator by calling it one thing. And the fact that they actually think

[Trevor Noah]

there is removes its complexity as well.

[Asma Khan]

Yes. Also the fact that they think a country the size of India has something called Indian cuisine. Let an Indian try and say there's a European cuisine or that I'm in America, there's an American cuisine. You know, putting the north and South America together. Yeah, we are not that. But the problem is they take away from us our layering our identity, our accent, the fabric that we wear, the thing that makes us different by literally making our. By painting us all in one corner in the same shade, it's easier for them to deal with us. Curry is a problematic word. And, you know, I recently did a show where it was Secrets of the Curry Kitchen. And I was like, I don't want the word curry. But they were saying that people will not understand that it's about Indian food. And eventually I gave in. I said, fine. You know, I'd rather people understood. And the first thing I said, the moment the camera comes on, I'm gonna say, there is no word like curry. They said, say it. So every. Literally every episode, I said, there is nothing called curry. But I'm gonna show you how to make korma. I'm gonna show you how to make jhalfarisi. I'm gonna show you how to make things.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, okay. So the thing that we are calling. So when we say, like, when people are like, I love butter chicken curry, and I love vindaloo curry, and I. That's wrong.

[Asma Khan]

It's absolutely wrong.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Asma Khan]

It's like, you know, I like spaghetti pasta, and I love. It's a generic word that is added on. It has no meaning at all. There is no dish that doesn't have a name. And there are things that, you know, like, in, you know, random things, like, you know, you will say, you know, zeera, aloo. Zeera is cumin. Aloo. Aloo's potato. So sometimes you might call something by the combination of things that are in there.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, okay.

[Asma Khan]

If you don't have a name because it's such an ordinary, everyday dish. But no, we have names for everything,

[Trevor Noah]

so it's like saying rice and beans in that way. You could say rice and beans, because that's what it is. Yes. Two things that are simple.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. So we do have a lot of that as well. We have simple words like, you know, that we combine because they talk about the two main ingredients. But I think that this is, again, to do with the fact that they have not. You know, I say this to a lot of people. I say, I will not let you eat my food unless you sit down and understand who I am. My music, my poetry, the rhythm. You cannot take away, you know, my fabric, my culture, my music, my architecture, my everything, and then dismiss me. I won't let you have my food then, because you cannot appropriate my culture by dumbing down my food and taking. The easiest thing for you is to accept my food. You cannot have my food unless you have me. You need to understand the problem is that so many cultures, I mean, in England and in a lot of other countries as well, this is what they find easiest to take. But are they interested in hearing about your tribe? Are they interested in hearing about your faith? Or are poets or the books that excite us? What is it that we wear in certain festivals? What keeps us up at night? No, they take our food because it's so easy, and they walk away. There is no respect. And where there is no respect on the table, I will not serve.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

I will not.

[Eugene]

Because I feel like sometimes in our quest to be accepted, we become party to our own exclusion, you know?

[Asma Khan]

Yes. And I think that it's hard because when you are bread and butter. And 41 families that I work with, my team are dependent on our success, I have to be careful. But I take it to the very edge of where I can be. And I know everything I'm saying now, people will listen. You're hugely popular, and I'm very grateful to be here speaking with you all, because it allows me to reach out to an audience in my Muslim name, in my accented voice. The fact that I tell the story of women and our food, you know, people should come and watch an open kitchen. There's no anger. No one is screaming and shouting.

[Trevor Noah]

It's not the thing that we see in TV all the time. No, no, no, no.

[Asma Khan]

And the problem is that television is worshiping and all these crazy, manic men who are not being able to deal with the pressure in the kitchen. I can send them to an ashram in India, in the Himalayas, if you. If you can't deal with pressure, go away. Do not traumatize young People. Because we are losing.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You're not wrong.

[Asma Khan]

We're losing so many people, young men and women, who leave hospitality because some crazy person cannot deal with the pressure. Do you ever hear of a CEO of a company going out, slapping their secretary or someone else on the board? No. And who are these chefs? Powerful people picking on their playground bullies. Tell them to go slap the owner or the head sommelier or this.

[Eugene]

Investors or the landlord.

[Asma Khan]

No, no. Who do they burn with? Hot spoons? Who do they bite? I've seen bite marks on women who've been bitten by him. And the way that they slapped, you know, our skin is dark. You really need to hit hard for us to show bruise. How are they being allowed? In no other profession, and I'm saying this not because I'm just a lawyer, but in no other profession and no other space, would this level of assault, physical, sexual, be allowed as allowed in the kitchen. If it was outside the kitchen, they would be in jail in full display. But we are allowing this because we allow the excuse that this is pressure.

[Eugene]

It's even glorified.

[Asma Khan]

It is glorified. This is seen like they are these tormented people. And I feel that it's almost as if the men who cook today do not want to be reminded of the women who cooked for them, because, like, in England, I don't know what it's like in Southampton, but, like school meals were served by older women.

[Eugene]

Yeah, lunch ladies.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah, lunch ladies. Exactly. Your memories are your grandmother, your mother. Lunch ladies.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

Now that you're an artist, you will become this macho, kind of crazy man who is so, you know, radiate testosterone because you've made cooking into a combat sport.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

So that it is so far away from the spiritual rhythm of the spices as they're crushed in our homeland.

[Eugene]

I even think the instrument that is used to.

[Asma Khan]

To.

[Eugene]

To. To symbolize cooking, the big cleat, the knife. So combative. You're right. I think it's a man that said, why not the spoon or the ladle?

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. Come to my kitchen. You'll see that the only knife we have is a very small tomato knife. Because every household had one sharp knife. And in my kitchen, we have one sharp knife. And it moves between people.

[Trevor Noah]

We all had one sharp knife, remember?

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

There's one sharp knife in everyone's house in the township.

[Asma Khan]

And in my kitchen, I have one sharp knife. I don't have fancy knives. I got very excited. I went and bought some Japanese knives. We had to take women to A and E after that because they had cut their fingers,

[Eugene]

we don't know, because

[Asma Khan]

we're used to bloody working with blunt knives. But the whole thing is that why has it become so combative? Why has it become about aggression and show and that you are taking this ingredient and you are imposing yourself on it.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I tell you why? I think. I think it goes back to something that you said literally at the beginning of this conversation. It is because if you make it seem like it is combative and if you make it feel like it is pained, and if you make it just, like, look like the most gritty and difficult task, then people are more likely to appreciate it. Whereas the women who, as you said when we first started, they make it look effortless, they make it seem as if it didn't take their time, as if the planning wasn't meticulous, they make it feel as if it was a foregone conclusion. You're less likely to appreciate it. And so, funny enough, even just if I'm just guessing in a way, when Asma Khan or any other woman, our grandmothers, whoever they were, when they would cook. And it would just be when I think of, like, my gran and how much food she would cook every single Sunday for everyone in the family, we all had those. That story. There's not one, One time where I can remember her, like, barking like Gordon Ramsay, like, screaming at people, get me my bloody.

[Asma Khan]

Ah.

[Trevor Noah]

Where's my spinach, you little shit?

[Eugene]

Why?

[Trevor Noah]

But the amount of food that was cooked for people and the. And the quality and the consistency of that food.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you get what I'm saying? Like, we're not talking about burnt bottoms. We're not talking about undercooked anything. But I'm using only four plates. Yo, the quad and the stove itself, there was nothing fancy. There was no, you know what I mean, A coal stove. But if you think about it beyond, like, her family and beyond that world, the appreciation isn't known. Everyone's like, everyone will go like, oh, yeah, I'm grandmother, but grandmothers know how to cook. Do you get what I'm saying? But when you punch walls and slap people and scream and come and wipe a plate with your serve, you know what I mean?

[Eugene]

And.

[Trevor Noah]

And turn the plate. You know, they love doing that thing. You turn the plate, turn the plate. Then it makes it feel like, I mean, this effort, the effort. Have you eaten there? Have you? Oh, we're lucky that we got in.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

It's so hard to prepare that. That one carrot in the middle of the plate.

[Eugene]

Even the Words, Gastronomy.

[Ad]

Oh.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, I actually think that's a

[Eugene]

lot of what it is.

[Asma Khan]

This is so true, what you're saying. And then the added insult is that often I hear chefs being interviewed and they say, who's the best chef? And they say, my mum or my grandmum?

[Eugene]

All of them.

[Asma Khan]

Show me a mum and grandmom who's in your kitchen. They are not there. There's also ageism, you know, and if you told me now to go chase a deer in a forest, deer will have gone to another continent by the time I even go near it. But you asked me to cook with very few ingredients, and this is the simplicity of our thing. I will cook you a meal you will never forget. But the problem is that the world will judge me, will look at my body shape, will look at my age, will look at my gray hair and decide, she's not creative, she's not dynamic, she's not this muscular, tattooed, pierced monster who's screaming. When was that ever something that was required to make a beautiful meal? Our grandmothers. My grandmother's slight and small. And, you know, you come into my kitchen, you'll see, you know, we've got women who are not even five feet. They're small, they're bright, they're full of spark. They love to cook and they love to cook. And there's a joy and this smile. But I. I feel so sad because we have. And also, I must blame the media as well. Oh, definitely the media. Television, you know, all kinds of media worship. This kind of irrational, erratic behavior, unkind behavior. And the thing is that what bothers me is the physical sexual abuse that's happening. And we are allowing this to happen. It's shameful because I am ashamed of hospitality, I'm ashamed of our industry, that we have not stood up for our women. It's not just women. It is men, too. It is the, you know, empathetic men, men who are of different sexuality, the way that young. Because often, you know, in England, you'll find young kids who are struggling in school, be sent off to, you know, vocational training. Right. They often learn cooking because it doesn't require you to read and write too much. They come in at 16, then they're called the most aggressive things. They are reminded at 16, they're reminded about all the struggles that they had. How are you powerful when you cannot embrace the weak, when you cannot actually show them hope? For me, a leader is someone who tells. Someone who's gone in afraid and broken, who has been bullied in School and comes in, boy or a girl, it doesn't matter. You take them into this world, your secret world of cooking, and you show them how spice works and use the food to speak to them about hope and love. Our industry is all about, you know, pushing each other down. And, you know, this kind of very fake service where service and hospitality is all about, you know, impressing people, making them feel good. But when there are tears behind the wall in your kitchen, who are you actually looking after? We don't look after your own. So then if the guest leaves and thinks that this is great, give you a five star review. Michelin gives you a star. Michelin might give you three stars. What is that star worth? When you have broken the soul of someone in your kitchen and we are allowing this every day, and we have not been able to protect our own?

[Trevor Noah]

I often think, you know, to the point you're making about the media, I often think it's quite an indictment

[Eugene]

that,

[Trevor Noah]

you know, and I'll use Hollywood as a shortcut for it. Cause it's just one of the media spaces that has informed how we live, that Hollywood has been really lazy at finding ways to glamorize things that seem as if they contain no glamour. And what I mean is this is like, if you think about how many industries Hollywood has taught us about and how they've shaped how people see them, you can't help but think that it now becomes a case of, like, the tail wagging the dog.

[Eugene]

Mm.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm yet to meet a policeman who didn't see police in a movie on TV and think that that's what policing is. You know, simple example. We all, at some point in our lives, watched a TV show where there were police where the one cop wanted the law to be done so badly that they slammed someone's head on a table or they smashed them against a wall. And the story tells us that they are the good person because they're willing to break the law to save the law.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And he's just like, wait, no, but if you. What are you doing? But the way it's portrayed to us, like, that's the way you do it. At some point, it's like, you know, turn off the cameras. I'll get this guy to talk. And we at home, like, yeah, turn off the cameras. Screw their civil liberties, get them to talk. You know, and then they do the same thing with, like, the military. They go like, this is how you do it. You go to that country and those people are savages, and you shoot them all and we're like, yeah, shoot them all.

[Asma Khan]

We do this with everything, that there's no just war.

[Trevor Noah]

The same thing that we do with the cooking or with the chefs is like. It's these stories of, like, the only way you can make this food is if you're pained, if you're struggling. Even artists, it's interesting how we forget that the image that we give out that inspires people to become this thing becomes how they define who they're gonna be in it.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean?

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

And so when I was approached by chef Stable, I was so shocked because till then I was like, you know, oh, these are like the world's best chefs. And they're like, you know, serious artists, you know, with gold leaf and caviar. And then when I realized that this is not a hoax, first I thought it was a hoax, and then I realized it's real. I told them, don't script me. Please don't script me.

[Eugene]

Oh, wow.

[Asma Khan]

I'm not scripted at all. I told the story of my people. I spoke about my mother crying when I was born as a second daughter, the lamenting on my birth. I spoke about inequality and justice. And I was so happy. They just sat there and let me say it. I didn't need to tell them that, you know, my food is this exquisite and I do this and I'm so tormented. And I have all these things I didn't need to. I cooked biryani and I opened the biryani and I fed people. And that's what it is. But I think that the problem is that, you know, when you media is looking for those kind of, it's like, you know, self fulfilling prophecy. You know, you are this, you're that. And there are so many of us, you know, I'm not just the only one. There are many people who have really interesting stories who understand justice, but where are they? No one is telling their story. They don't get the opportunity to talk about what makes them special and their food special. And then you have. We are flooded by all these crazy, wacko men who are going around beating people. And we all think they're great because they're abusive. And it really worries me because the problem is, and I don't want to be a hypocrite, but I'll tell you one thing, I don't have a daughter. If my daughter wanted to work in a commercial kitchen, I wouldn't let her go.

[Eugene]

Wow. Because of what? You know? Yeah.

[Asma Khan]

I would. I would be awake and I would check her all the time to see, has she got injuries, is she being bruised, is she being bullied?

[Eugene]

It's funny you say that throughout our conversation. I was looking at your arms and you have no scars, you have no burn marks. Cause I know this female chef who had, like, scars and burn marks all over her hands, all the way up to her elbow. And she said, that's the only way you get respect in these commercial kitchens is if you have these marks and these cuts on your finger. It means you've done the time and you've put in the time and you've done the work. And our grandmothers didn't have that. You don't have that.

[Asma Khan]

Yeah. I mean, if. If. If one of our grandmothers burned themselves, all the other aunties would say, how could you do it? You'd be looked down upon for getting burned. You know, that's a sign of incompetence. You are so right. And the whole point is that you. The whole culture in a kitchen is so violent, it is so horrible. And I actually took on Michelin. There was proved allegation. It has to be proved allegation again. I'm a lawyer backing myself up, backing myself up. A proved allegation where abuse happened in a kitchen which has a Michelin star. I asked Michelin, take the star off. They didn't apply to me for a long time. I kept asking them. Then they got back to me with some kind of answer saying, oh, that's not what we do. But you do, you recognize and you give a kind of accolade to that kitchen and that chef. But they have been brutal. They have been proved to have abused someone in the kitchen. Why can you not take off the star? But they will not. And the problem is that when the entire industry is based on this, that, no, we will not speak up, we will keep silent. Because I've never wanted to be. I am on the fringe of this all male Mayfair club, mostly white people who are in this exclusive club like you have them in Britain where women come in. I mean, now, of course, the law has changed because the law says women are members as well. But in hospitality, women are just guests who you sign in. You know the clubs that we have.

[Eugene]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Asma Khan]

You sign a woman and you bring her in.

[Eugene]

Someone has to vouch for you.

[Asma Khan]

Someone has to vouch for you. And if you now look at all the successful women. I have always said this. Whenever there have been proved allegations of abuse in a kitchen, not a single Michelin star female chef has spoken up. If you Google and you will see. It's just me.

[Eugene]

The voucher stops there.

[Asma Khan]

It's just me. I write full page articles about allegations, including some very prominent male chefs who said, you know, we don't want to hire women because when they get pregnant, they cannot pick up pots. I was like, wow. To say this. And every female chef who is seen as a leader of this industry, who has a mission star, the silence is deafening. Why are you silent? And this is our problem. And I have said it repeatedly, and not even once has any of these women approached me privately, saying on the side that, you know, I also agree with you. But because, you know, these are my friends, I don't want to say they haven't even approached me personally. That's how broken we are that women see themselves as chefs first. And women, fine, you can see yourself as, you know, queen of, you know, whatever. You can be who you. You can imagine yourself to be whatever you want. But I also see you as a female. I see you as a female leader. There's a woman in your team who might be getting bullied. Your silence tells her, shh, Keep quiet. Because to progress, you stay silent. You follow, conform to the system, become an accomplice. I could not breathe, I could not live. If I had to stay silent and allow abuse in front of me for my success, my success would hurt me more than anything else. And I don't understand. I guess it's a personality thing, but, you know, I do not understand how they are still silent. Nobody else is speaking up. I am one of the only females who's speaking up in the industry. And very, you know, not so long ago, a male chef was asked this in a press conference publicly that, you know, what do you think of someone like Asmaa who says, you know, that male ch. He said, tell her to come into a real kitchen and work with men. Tell her to come. And when I challenged him, he said it was his. As English is not his first language.

[Eugene]

I was like, Frenchmen, after all you've done for them.

[Asma Khan]

I was saying English is also not my first language, but I would not say something like that. It's not about English.

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Wow.

[Asma Khan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Eugene, I challenge you to come work in a real kitchen.

[Eugene]

What's that?

[Trevor Noah]

Trevor and me. No, no, I see.

[Eugene]

You see?

[Trevor Noah]

No, Eugene, don't speak. My first language is coward.

[Asma Khan]

That's true. So it's. But despite how tough it is, I'm so optimistic. Maybe she's not born yet, but the legacy I'm leaving and that girl, that's not Born yet she will know my name. I will be dead and I will be dust. She will know there was someone like me who created a space that was free for women. And I want her to know. I want her to know my name. I want her to know that. And I walk in thorns and I go through fire because one day she will be free and she will be without fear. And that is what excites me, that I will be able to push back and clear the pathway and through just the water that I ski myself, that I leave everything moistened and fresh, and the harvest will grow, and there will be women and men who will be free of fear. I believe this will happen. I may not see it.

[Eugene]

You will see it.

[Asma Khan]

But I feel that there will be a day when there is no fear in the kitchen. And this is what drives me. And I feel everything in my life has led me to this place where I fight for those who I will never see. And I speak for those who I don't know. But what a privilege it is and what an honor to be able to do this. This excites me more than everything else because I, you know, all my friends who were in law school with me, who were really bad, are super rich now, you know, have fancy cars, live in St. John's Wood and all of this. And I think, you know, am I going to be poor my whole life? And I think I will be. But I know that, you know, legacy is more important than everything else. You know, if you are a CEO or a CFO of a company, your name is on a door with the title. But when you die, all your things are put in a box and given away. After a respectable, you know, gap, someone else's name is put there. What is your legacy? Where? I know one thing, that when I die, I will live on forever because I did something for women in industry, in kitchens, that no one else has done so far. And I asked my father that, you know, when I die, do not bury me inside the fortress and the palace. Bury me on the street so that everyone can walk past. And I want them to ask who she is. I want the world to know this story because I want them to know that you could succeed. You could be kind, you could be graceful. You could be, you know, caring about the community. And I'm very successful. I want people to know you can be successful without being scared.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's why you're here. And that's. That's. I mean, when I told the team, when I was like, we really gotta get Asma on. They were like. Some people were like, who's asking some people like, oh, from chef's table. I was like, no, no, forget all the things. You know, you just, you just have to meet this person. And so I'm glad, I'm glad you came and joined us today. This was amazing. Thank you.

[Asma Khan]

Thank you so much. Thank you very much.

[Trevor Noah]

Now, I mean, we have to, we have to go and eat the food now.

[Asma Khan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't think I've ever been this hungry.

[Asma Khan]

You have to come. And women cooking, magical. You've got to come.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I mean that we know that you can't even like. Yeah, but just like now.

[Eugene]

My stove, apparently.

[Trevor Noah]

Eugene, download the app. Eugene, download that app, Eugene.

[Eugene]

Let's get going.

[Asma Khan]

Oh, God.

[Trevor Noah]

Asma Khan, thank you so much.

[Asma Khan]

You're very cool. Thank you so much.

[Trevor Noah]

This was lovely. Thank you very much. What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius xm. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiou. Music mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of what now? Yeah. Maxing is so maxing right now, bro. Get ready for spicy chicken maxing because Carl's Jr. Is saving you big with a 5.99 maxed out double stack double stack double stack spicy chicken sandwich. Seriously, just 5.99 double stack spicy chicken. This is unreal value in the bromosphere. The new spicy chicken Max wallet friendly. Max tasty. Only a Carl's Jr available for limited time at participating restaurants.

[Asma Khan]

Taxon included.

[Trevor Noah]

Not valid for use within a combo or a combination with any other offered discount.

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