Harris-Trump Debate Debrief with Tressie McMillan Cottom

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Harris-Trump Debate Debrief with Tressie McMillan Cottom"

Podcast Information:

• Title: What Now? with Trevor Noah
• Host/Author: Spotify Studios
• Episode Title: Harris-Trump Debate Debrief with Tressie McMillan Cottom
• Release Date: September 12, 2024

In this episode of "What Now? with Trevor Noah," host Trevor Noah engages in a dynamic and insightful conversation with esteemed guest Tressie McMillan Cottom, alongside co-hosts Christiana and Josh Johnson. The discussion revolves around the recent debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, delving deep into the performances, strategies, and broader implications for American politics.

---

1. Initial Reactions to the Harris-Trump Debate

Trevor Noah opens the conversation by reflecting humorously on the debate preparation:

"Kamala Harris was so on point with her reactions. I wonder if they, like, they brought in like a meme expert and they were like, all right, Madam Vice President. So we need you to make as many memeable faces as possible."
[00:00]

Christiana and Josh Johnson share their initial impressions, noting the stark contrast between Harris's composed demeanor and Trump's seemingly disoriented performance.

---

2. Kamala Harris's Strategic Advantage

Tressie McMillan Cottom offers a profound analysis of Harris's approach:

"I just think that feels good to Americans. Like, okay, not only am I not crazy, someone who seems capable sees it too, and they are willing to go toe to toe with him when it matters."
[09:21]

She highlights Harris's shift towards a more conservative stance, which she believes positions her uniquely against Trump. By presenting herself as both firm and relatable, Harris manages to appeal to a broader electorate, including independents and moderates who might have previously leaned away from progressive candidates.

---

3. Donald Trump's Performance and Behavior

The hosts discuss Trump's unsettling behavior during the debate. Josh Johnson likens Trump's demeanor to a fight night scenario:

"At moments where you would think that Trump hit his head in front of everybody and was bleeding out his ear because the way that he would be talking and everyone, it wasn't even like, no one was even giggling. It was like, this is weird."
[05:02]

Tressie McMillan Cottom posits that Trump's team, particularly figures like J.D. Vance, may be contributing to his erratic behavior by introducing unconventional and conspiratorial talking points:

"What I think has happened here is he is responding to the algorithm where as traditional politicians respond to polling, the algorithm is feeding him what he wants."
[41:17]

---

4. The Influence of Trump's Inner Circle

The conversation delves into the role of Trump's advisors and their impact on his public persona. Christiana observes a shift in the support system surrounding Trump:

"They kept speaking about points that she had rebutted in the debate... they don't know how to attack her."
[16:40]

Tressie McMillan Cottom further explains that traditional Republican figures are distancing themselves from Trump, leading him to rely more on fringe elements within his inner circle:

"They were terrified by January 6th... they hate those people who showed up dressed like Vikings, looking ridiculous. They hate those people."
[53:17]

---

5. The Politics of Beauty and Personal Dynamics

A lighter yet insightful segment explores the personal dynamics between Harris and Trump, touching upon the “politics of beauty.” Christiana humorously suggests that Trump's perception of Harris’s beauty may affect his behavior:

"Christiana: So I think, like, there's this tension of, like, we're the same type of people. Cause I'm telling you, this guy is not as, like, the political animal people make him out to be. He's like, are you rich or are you hot?"
[30:42]

Tressie McMillan Cottom adds depth to this notion by discussing how Harris’s consistent poise and beauty have been integral to her public image:

"One of her attributes is she's been beautiful her whole life. She knows how to handle someone like a Donald Trump in politics and in business."
[31:53]

---

6. The Debate as Political Theater

Tressie McMillan Cottom offers a critical perspective on the nature of political debates:

"The debate is morphed into the ultimate political theater. I think it makes us feel like we have more direct participation and control in the political process than we have."
[58:19]

She argues that debates serve more to reinforce the illusion of voter empowerment rather than effect genuine political engagement, especially within the constraints of the two-party system and the electoral college.

---

7. Concluding Insights and Future Implications

As the discussion wraps up, the hosts reflect on the implications of the debate for the future of American politics. Trevor Noah thanks Tressie McMillan Cottom for her invaluable insights:

"It's such a slick move because it felt like it wasn't about him. It was introducing herself to us, to everyone out there."
[61:24]

The conversation underscores the evolving strategies within political campaigns and the nuanced interplay between candidate performances and broader societal perceptions.

---

Notable Quotes and Highlights

• Trevor Noah on Kamala's meme-ready performance:
  "She had the perfect meme gif face."
  [00:27]

• Tressie McMillan Cottom on Kamala's message:
  "She was willing to go toe to toe with him when it matters."
  [09:21]

• Josh Johnson on Trump's uncomfortable demeanor:
  "He looked like he had never shaken a black woman's hand."
  [29:23]

• Tressie McMillan Cottom on the debate's impact on voter perception:
  "It has lost some of its ability to compel attention."
  [58:54]

---

Conclusion

This episode of "What Now? with Trevor Noah" provides a comprehensive debrief of the Harris-Trump debate, enriched by Tressie McMillan Cottom’s scholarly perspective. The discussion navigates through the performances of both candidates, the strategic maneuvers of Kamala Harris, the apparent unraveling of Donald Trump's debate preparation, and the broader implications for American democracy. Listeners gain a multifaceted understanding of the debate’s significance in the current political landscape, all presented with the hosts' characteristic blend of humor and critical insight.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

You know, when they talk about the debate prep, they'll say like, oh, they prepared and they prepared Donald Trump. And I always wonder what the prep actually entails. And Kamala Harris was so on point with her reactions. I wonder if they, like, they brought in like a meme expert and they were like, all right, all right, Madam Vice President. So we need you to make as many memeable faces as possible. We need you to give. She had the perfect meme gif face.

[Christiana]

Kamala Harris.

[Trevor Noah]

What's up?

[Christiana]

Good debate.

[Trevor Noah]

This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The holidays are almost here, and who doesn't love getting a little back? This season, I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on presents I buy for my loved ones with my Apple card without paying a single fee. It's simple and convenient because it's in the wallet app on my iPhone, so it's always with me. And because everything I need is in one place, it's easy to see what I've spent and make a payment. So if you have an iPhone, you can apply for an Apple card and start using it right away. It's easy. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.74% to 28.99% based on creditworthiness rates as of October 1, 2024. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You want to run a successful business? Well, get ready to put in the work. Because no matter what your company does, no matter how big or small it is, it takes a lot of effort. Just look at what it takes to create even one episode of this podcast. We have to plan, we coordinate with guests, we find time to sit down and record, we have to edit, we have to market, and so much more. Now, of course, it helps to have a good team, but even finding the people for your team is a challenge because that's extra work you need to do on top of everything else you're already doing. And when you need to fill a role right away, it can feel impossible. Thankfully, there's a place you can go for help. ZipRecruiter. It does the work for you to make hiring fast and easy. The reason it works so quickly is because ZipRecruiter has amazing matching technology. Immediately after you post your job, it finds and sends you top candidates for your role so you can get back to running your business. Experience faster, easier hiring with ZipRecruiter. Try it free at ZipRecruiter.com Trevor that's ZipRecruiter.com/Trevor. This episode is brought to you by Atlassian. Atlassian team collaboration software like Jira, Confluence and Loom help power collaboration for enterprise companies around the globe. With products that enable AI powered teamwork. Doing the impossible just became possible. So join the 83% of the Fortune 500 that trust Atlassian to help transform their enterprise. Learn how to unleash the potential of your [e-mail]. well, that was quite the debate. Oh man, I love saying the most random thing to see how you'll react. Happy podcast day, everybody. How you doing? How's everybody doing? What's up, Christiana? What's up, Josh?

[Josh Johnson]

Happy podcast.

[Christiana]

Happy podc. I was expecting you to say happy.

[Trevor Noah]

I know, I know. I knew that you were doing that. And then I was like, what could I say to throw you off? I was trying to be that preacher who comes out and just says the most random thing ever. Like, I'm never buying that again. And then the congregation just looks at them like, wait, wait, buying what? The Lord be with you. And also with you. But wait, what happened? What happened?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, I mean, what happened is a good question.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, what happened? Indeed. These are the episodes I sort of love the most because we are all in the most different places possible. So I'm in the Netherlands where I watched the debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris at 3 o'clock in the morning. Christiana watched it in California, the freest state in America. And then Josh Johnson, I'm assuming you watched in New York. Like, was it like a fight night in New York or was it just a regular watch the debate?

[Josh Johnson]

No, it was like a fight night because there were moments where, okay, I've watched lots of boxing and everything. And whenever you pass a bar where the boxing is happening. There have been a few times in my life where I've seen a fight where somebody got knocked out, but they didn't move right away and it get quiet. And that's exactly what it looked like. At moments where I would pass a bar, you hear the debate blaring and people just quiet. You would think that Trump hit his head in front of everybody and was bleeding out his ear because the way that he would be talking and everyone, it wasn't even like, no one was even giggling. It was like, this is weird.

[Christiana]

That's what I felt like. I don't want to tip the plot here, but it felt very.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I don't think there's a plot to tip. I feel like this conversation is one of those where if you are tuning into this episode, you know, we're recording this episode, like, a day after the debate. You're going to listen to it two days after the debate. But I think everyone saw it. You know, there were a few questions I had for this that I. That. That I know you're going to have great answers for. And our guest, who's, you know, like a superstar guest. Joining us, Tressie macmillan Cotton. She'll always bring a different perspective to any conversation, so I'm really excited to have her back on because I know she's a fan favorite, but, yeah, I don't. I don't think there's tipping anything here. It's just like. Like, okay, maybe. Maybe the one thing I found myself asking was, like, how much crazier can Trump actually get?

[Christiana]

Is that what you're asking? That's interesting.

[Trevor Noah]

No. Really?

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, really. I was like. Because I. Maybe I'm not used to him, or maybe I don't watch his stuff as much as I used to. I don't know. But is it just me, or does he seem like he's a little deeper in than he was?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, he's somehow both an old man and chronically online. Yeah, I've never. You don't see the two mix often.

[Christiana]

Yeah. And you know what it was for me? It was because I kept thinking back to the Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump debates, and for reasons that we can't get into, she came across as a bit robotic, like, you know, like a real politician. You know, if you're a politician for too long, you get kind of, like, very scientific about it. So her next to Trump, she kind of looked like the weirdo, even though he was saying crazy shit. Do you know what I mean? Cause he would say the crazy shit and she wouldn't react, whereas. Cause Harris has all these facial reactions.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Christiana]

And she's responded to him. Like, when he did the cats and dogs stuff, she was, like, looking around like, is he for real? Oh, damn. Because she was so, like, human and seemed less seasoned next to him.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christiana]

He seemed even crazier. There were moments when I was like, is she gonna slap him? No, she's not gonna slap him. She's gonna say the right thing. But it was just like she was us, you know? Cause she was reacting to him how you would when you hear, like, a crazy man in a bar.

[Josh Johnson]

Like, what are you saying, yeah, I'll pitch you this real quick. She looked at Trump the way Trump looked at Biden in the last debate. Like, when I tell you.

[Trevor Noah]

Because remember that moment? Yeah. Remember that moment? He said, you know what it was? It was the line. It was the line. When Biden went, he went. He started in one place and ended in a completely different zip code. And then Trump said, if I remember correctly, he was like, I don't know what he said. I don't think he knows what he said.

[Josh Johnson]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

He was like. He was so honest in that moment. He was like. He's like, I don't know what he just said. And to be honest, he was almost like, should you not throw the towel in what is happening right now? And it looked like you're right. Kamala Harris, she looked at him because.

[Josh Johnson]

There was one moment where I don't know if she was concerned about being president or anything. I think she was like, y'all, this is elder abuse. If we just let. If we don't address. Because I know y'all muted my mic, so I can't say anything but, like, somebody get him the concern.

[Christiana]

There were general moments of concern.

[Trevor Noah]

Trustee, it is so good having you back with us. Thank you for joining us, like, for, like, what I hope will be the antithesis and the antidote to everything else we spoke about and experienced. So let me start by asking you this. Has your. Not your worldview, but has your opinion on where the race stands or where America stands changed after watching Donald Trump debate Kamala Harris?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Okay, maybe. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I like this. I'll take maybe from you any day.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I know, because I'm cautious. You know how cautious I am about this. I'm always scared to be hopeful about Americans. We're interesting. We're interesting people. And so it's scary for me, having.

[Christiana]

Said that, said so casually, what a lie. I don't have hope about Americans.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

It is. You know, I think that I feel a little bit more confident. One, I feel very confident about the Harris machine, which feels good. We talked a little bit about this, that her team around her seems to have changed. I went into this debate wanting to see not just that they had prepared her, but that she understood where the electorate was and that she had a message for that. All right. And that they weren't still gonna be beta testing messages that they had, you know, that the internal polling was consistent. They understood what she needed to do and that she was ready to do it. And I wanted her to show people she could win. Listen, I keep Saying all people want. At this point, the people who are likely to vote, like, there's a huge swath of people out there aren't paying attention, don't care, whatever. But the people who can be moved to vote, who might vote for a Kamala Harris, wanted to see some of what they saw in that debate. They want someone who isn't afraid of Donald Trump big time, and they want someone who makes him look as crazy as they feel he is. Right. There's this disconnect right now where he clearly is crazy to people who are paying attention. But if you go out there, you know, in the rest of the world, and you brush up against other people who don't seem terrified of him, you can start to question if you're losing your mind. And so seeing her react to him as if he doesn't make sense, seeing her draw out the ways that he doesn't make sense, I just think that feels good to Americans. Like, okay, not only am I not crazy, someone who seems capable sees it too, and they are willing to go toe to toe with him when it matters.

[Trevor Noah]

Right, Right. Well, here's the main things I wanted to chat about. You know, one was, what do we think Kamala Harris did? Right. And why did it feel like it was more right than anyone who has debated Donald Trump before? And then, obviously, we have to talk about Donald Trump. And you heard my question to Josh and Christiana. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I feel like he's gone deeper into his own rabbit hole. I also wanted to talk about the debate as a format and as a concept. And then at the end of it all, just talking about where we see America going from this. But let's stick with Kamala. I don't know about everybody else. I do not remember a single time when especially Donald Trump was involved in a debate. And even conservatives, even maga, people were saying, no, this man got his ass handed to him. And here's how. They're not saying it like he lost. They're saying it like, oh, we heard that Kamala got the questions before the debate. How did she have her answers ready? Which, by the way, showed me how little people now expect from their politicians, that people were shocked. People were shocked that Kamala Harris could possibly do enough homework to know what they would possibly ask her before, which is what you're supposed to know. It's the issues. And then there's a conspiracy theory going around. And if you've seen this, where they're saying her earrings are Actually, secret listening devices. And people were broadcasting. Someone was talking to her in her ear while she was speaking. Which I'm gonna tell you, as somebody who does live tv, if that's the case, that's another reason that she should be president. Because if you can deliver a message while people are speaking into your ear at the same time, you. You like the ultimate. Like, you're the emperor of multitasking. So they said that. They said she cheated. They said a whole bunch of things. But the underlying thought, even in Magaland, was, yeah, our dude lost. Which I've never seen them say before.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I got in a lot of trouble, which is going to surprise you. I know.

[Trevor Noah]

Trevor.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I got in a lot of trouble a couple of days before the debate because I said I felt the start, not the pinnacle, the start of the Trump bubble losing air. I thought that even conservative media were open to considering that he was not Teflon Don. Right. That he had some vulnerabilities. And nothing about what I saw during the debate changed my mind. Again, he's not dead in the water. He's still polling competitively. I get all of that. I just mean he does not seem as undeniable as he once seemed. And I think that. And I'm not getting that from liberal progressive voters who have long hoped for that to be true. I was getting that from my read of conservative commentators, both in traditional media and online and social media, where, you know, the joke. He stopped being the comedian, and he is starting to become the punchline, which I realize who I just said that to, but listen. Right. Yeah, I just thought what I said. Just thought about who I said it to. But, yeah, he's shifting from being the person who controlling the circus to becoming the punchline. For him to now be the punchline really does make him look diminished in a way.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So do you think some. Do you think that was something that Kamala Harris was. Is uniquely positioned to take advantage of? Because there's no denying, like, if we talk about Hillary, and let's even forget Hillary for a moment, look at every Republican that Donald Trump beat in his own debates to get where he got to. Like, is there something that makes you uniquely positioned to beat Trump in a debate if you are a black person and you've lived with black people in any way, shape, or form? Do you know what I mean? Like, black people aren't as shook by Trump as white people are. Let's just put it out there.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

Because we've also been roasted before, like, in life.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Thank you.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Like, thank you, Josh.

[Josh Johnson]

There are things that would be tantamount to bullying that have come from family. You know what I mean? And then you send a person out in the world that has none of those experiences, and they're like, wait, is he allowed to talk to me like this?

[Christiana]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's funny. Immediately after the debate, I watched Fox. I wanted to see what Hannity and his friends were saying. And he had J.D. vance on, and then he also had Rubio and Cruz. They were the surrogates that were out for Trump. And something I noticed is that they kept speaking about points that she had rebutted in the debate. So they were like, she's going to ban fracking in Pennsylvania and she's going to defund the police. And to me, these sound like things that Republicans were afraid about four years ago. Like, yeah, like, I can't even remember the last time I met an abolitionist who said, defund the police. Like, it's such an old slope. Like, the conversation isn't even there yet. And then I was like, the issue is they don't know how to attack her.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, it's insane because to her credit.

[Christiana]

When we were accusing her of being the vice president who did nothing, the great thing is, like, you can pin nothing to her. They were like, okay, so they were like, we can't say the black thing because that's not polling well. Let's not talk about her being mixed race because our white dudes at home with Asian and black wives are getting mixed up.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow, that's funny, right?

[Christiana]

So they're like, okay, we're not gonna do that. What has she done? We don't know what she's done. Okay, defund the police and fracking. And what was hard about that is that that woman just went up there and was like, I have a gun and I'm pro Israel. So it's like, it doesn't. It didn't line up with reality. Like, when she said she had a gun, I was very shocked. I was like, well, this is a scary woman. And I say that as a wreck.

[Trevor Noah]

Who like, yeah, but you also say. You also say that as someone who does want a gun. So I. I know.

[Christiana]

I admire. Listen, a woman that does get a gun has my full respect. Cause she actually acted out on the court.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

And she has a gun.

[Christiana]

She has a gun. She was like, me and Tim are gun owners. And there were like these sharp turns in it where I was like, oh, their big problem is that she's probably More of a conservative than Trump is at her core right there. If you look at her.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's an interesting one.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Christiana]

I was like, this is a Republican light. She'd never be with them. Cause the parties aren't as good and they're not as good looking. But.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, this is an interesting take.

[Christiana]

This is not a real Democrat. Like, the more she like. And I think it was like the.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Israel Palestinian was that amazing moment. Yeah.

[Christiana]

Yes. With the way she described that. She didn't describe that in particularly progressive terms. And it would be actually quite hawkish by even Democrat standards. So when she spoke about that, when she caught about gun ownership, when she celebrated being a prosecutor, like, she wasn't hiding mine. She was like, yeah, I lock people up. And you're like, I'm sorry, what? Then I was like, trump, that's your problem. You're actually running against another conservative and she's black and Indian. What do you do with that? I wouldn't know what to do personally.

[Josh Johnson]

I mean, all you can do is bring up old talking points like call her a jive turkey. All right.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I think Christiana is onto something here. Not only did she give these hawkish responses, they were her best answers. They were her best answers. Her response to Ukraine, her response to the Israel, Palestine question. If you are agnostic on what she actually said, I mean, they were the ones where she was the most eloquent. She was the most emotive, really. Like I expected her to be emotive on the abortion question. And she reaches for that a bit, but it doesn't feel nearly as natural as when she says, I own a gun and I arrest people. Like, that's who she is. And I think that's who she feels like she is in the world. And when you say that next to someone who has only been pretending to be a cowboy. Donald Trump doesn't own a gun.

[Trevor Noah]

Trump is afraid of guns. I don't know if you've ever seen Donald Trump talk about guns.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

He's terrified.

[Trevor Noah]

He's afraid of guns. Yeah, he's terrified. He talks about his sons hunting, and he talks about them as if he has sent anonymous tips to the police about his own sons. Yeah, that's how Trump talks about his sons. He'd be like, my sons, they do a lot of hunting, a lot of hunting, and they know everything about guns. Sometimes it worries me. It worries me a little bit. They got a lot of guns, a lot of guns. I don't know about that. And you see that even he's going like, what are you guys doing? We're billionaires, and you're running around with guns. But that. So that's an interesting point. You're basically saying the both of you are saying that one of the things Kamala Harris might have done Right. In this debate was sort of outflank Trump in his own backyard.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah. I think where she happens to have policy that is both fitting to Republicans and is weirdly Democratic in a way, and exploiting that, I think, is the best move you can do, because this is the thing that is undeniably cool in a way that is going to sound weird, but when Kamala Harris says, I have a gun and I'm a prosecutor, I don't care what you think, I'll shoot you and lock you up. That's. That already is, like, so wild that you're like, yo, I'm kind of on board. Even as someone who, like, doesn't have a gun and is someone who, like, you know, doesn't love the justice system, I'm still like, damn, she gonna shoot you and lock you up. You gonna get got. Right? And I think. I think there's the other thing that. What I like about what she's doing and what she did in that debate that I think is very smart. That is something that I hope more Democrats do when the time comes in their own races, is that there are things that optically Democrats, especially liberals, don't like. Right. Like, don't like the police, don't like justice, stuff like that. Right. But my thing, and I've been saying this for a while, I've been saying this ever since she basically became the nominee. I was like, y'all, I know you don't like the police, but you don't like the way that beat cops treat people. You like the police. Because when Donald Trump got indicted, when he got charged, when he got found guilty on 34 counts, didn't y'all celebrate how you do that? Without a justice system, who can do that but a prosecutor? So it's like, you do like it sometimes. It's just that powerful, evil people get held accountable so rarely that we don't get to celebrate the way that other people do who, like when poor people get beat up, if that makes sense.

[Trevor Noah]

That makes complete sense. And I mean, yeah, this is. I felt that. But I won't lie. You've given me. And I think you've given everyone listening a new way to think about it. And that is the thing, the secret weapon that Kamala Harris had over Donald Trump was that she may be more conservative than he is in real life.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean? Like, Trump is like, Trump is a red in the streets, but a blue in the sheets. You know what I mean?

[Christiana]

Baby mamas.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

He's basically a rapper. He's a trap rapper. Yeah.

[Christiana]

Beyond gold toilets.

[Josh Johnson]

Him and Young Thug have the same case. Him and Young Thug. Same.

[Christiana]

In terms of how he acts. Right. Whereas Harris is. Her life is quite conservative. Like no child. Like the things you stereotypically associate with a woman of color of her age. She has none of that. And what was interesting to me was watch her pull the Democratic Party. I felt. Felt to the right. I don't think it. I think it's already a centrist party, but she pulled it more to the right, even on things like immigration. And I was like, oh, she clearly doesn't care to really pander to the left, like I think that they have for the last few years, especially on issues of identity, police reform, et cetera, et cetera. There was no talk of that. Instead, it was kind of like this rainbow nation where we give you a chance to have a down payment on a house and you work hard and you get your healthcare. That was the message, which is like conservatism. Do you know what I mean? If you work hard and you behave well, we'll help you out. Right. It's like conservatism. And it was interesting for me to watch because I'm like, she clearly doesn't believe there are votes to be accumulated on the left at all. I think she's made the calculation that these people are never going to like me because I will shoot you and prosecute you, and I can't. There's no way I can change that record. However, there are independents that I can collect or people that went from Obama one year to Trump the other who came back to Biden, who may consider Harris if she plays her cards right.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, before we get into Trump, let's do this. Let's take a quick break and when we come back, let's talk about the DJT ratings machine and how he is still able to leave everybody shocked watching his screen going, what the. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Travel is all about learning and experiencing things in a new, exciting way. But you could get even more from your travels. With the Chase Sapphire Reserve Card. You can earn three times the points on travel purchases and receive a $300 travel credit. It also comes with plenty of other perks, too, like access to Sapphire's Airport Lounge network. You can relax and refresh with locally inspired menus, a curated selection of drinks and more before getting on your flights. Make the most out of your next trip. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen. So as you start getting ready for friends and family visiting, maybe you should be thinking about giving your guest room a little upgrade. Personally, I've been using Brooklinen for a while now and I'll tell you, these sheets are made to be lived in. They're soft, durable.

[Christiana]

Ooh.

[Trevor Noah]

And they just feel right. Brooklinen's classic and luxe sheets get rave reviews. 200,000 5 star reviews in fact. These are sheets people trust tested by places like Good Housekeeping and gq. They're versatile too, with options for every kind of sleeper. And it's more than just sheets. Brooklinen's customizable bundles make it easy to refresh your whole setup in one go. You can pull together everything from sheets to blankets and throws. So your bed's got layers, textures, the works, all without overthinking it. So come on, refresh your space today with Brooklinen's award winning textures, layers and home essentials. Visit in store or [e-mail] that's B R O O K L I N E N.com get 15% off your first order today. Okay, so Kamala Harris comes into the debate. She shocks everybody because she says everything that they thought maybe like a Trump would say on stage. But even if you take away Kamala Harris's performance, Donald Trump for me felt the way Joe Biden felt for Democrats when they were watching him debate Joe Biden. Do you know what I mean? It was that same feeling like I put myself in the shoes of a MAGA supporter and I was like, I would not want to be watching my guy experiencing this right now. You know, he seemed like he had it in the beginning and then it was just, he looked 78.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes, he did. Yes, he did.

[Josh Johnson]

He looked 78. And you know what? You cannot, as a 78 year old man, when you've been refuted, say, I saw it on the television. At least say tv, sir. You gotta say tv. Don't television sound like you in the past? Right now, television is too long of a word for as dumb a thing as you just said. You have to say tv.

[Trevor Noah]

Let me ask you this, do you think. And you know, this reminds me, you know, Josh of our experience with fights. So Tressie, like, Josh loves fighting, like ufc, boxing, you name it. If people are getting punched, Josh Johnson is there. And one of the times you will see Josh's eyes light up the most is when there's a fight that's lined up where the person who was supposed to fight can no longer fight. And so somebody new has jumped in at the last minute because they still have to have the fight because it brings with it like a wild card nature, like Josh. You'd see Josh get so excited, he'd be like, ooh, you're going to want to watch this one. He'd be like, the other guy, he doesn't know anything about him because the other guy was a striker. And this guy, he's going to choke you and you don't know what he's going to do with submissions. And nobody knows how this is going to turn out because he came out of nowhere. It feels like that here. It feels like he hasn't had any time to reconcile with the idea of going up against a black woman who was a prosecutor, who is Indian and is everything that he doesn't know how to speak to or engage with. From the moment he shook her hand, this man looked extremely uncomfortable. Like he looked like he had never shaken a black woman's hand.

[Christiana]

I think Donald Trump identifies as someone who is good looking. I believe he looks at me.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I'm so glad. This is not a visual medium right now.

[Trevor Noah]

Keep that sentence, please. Repeat the sentence, please.

[Christiana]

No, I think if you, if you look at the history, he was the New York blonde haired, blue eyed playboy with a lot of money. He was, it was like, this is the most eligible. If you look at like old articles about Donald Trump, eligible bachelor.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, no, it girl is gonna mega. Women still love it.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes, they do.

[Christiana]

For a long time, women were like, this is a gorgeous guy. He's got money, he's got bda, et cetera, et cetera. I think he still, Even though he's 78 years old, he still identifies primarily as a somebody who is attracted. And he looks at Kamala Harris and he's like, she's attractive too. We're the same type of person. With Hillary, he's like, never with Biden, he's like, no, not as good looking as I am with Kamala, he's like fourth wife perhaps. You know, it's just like I was.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Gonna say she is the type of black woman or the type of woman of color that if he had any exposure to them at all, which again, he does not. He would have given a pass.

[Christiana]

Absolutely.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

And she doesn't want his pass. I get where you're going, Christina.

[Christiana]

So I think, like, there's this tension of, like, we're the same type of people. Cause I'm telling you, this guy is not as, like, the political animal people make him out to be. He's like, are you rich or are you hot? Right.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That's just.

[Christiana]

That's just amazing. Okay.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

And so Josh is having an attack.

[Christiana]

No. I'm so sorry. And this is not happening.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I'm so sorry.

[Josh Johnson]

I knocked it all out.

[Christiana]

Diminish all the other brilliant qualities that Kamala Harris has, but he primarily looks across and he sees this attractive woman insulting him. And the moment she said that people walk out of your rallies.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yep.

[Christiana]

It was done.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Christiana]

He was so hurt. He wasn't angry. He was like, how dare we're the same. You're supposed to like me. How dare you? And the thing. And the other thing about saying how many million people fired him. And I think it's just beyond all of high identity stuff. I think, like, on a really primordial level, he's like, this is a good looking woman who is not wowed by me. What do I do? And he can never overcome that. And that's why he hasn't come up with a good nickname for her.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Oh, because he likes her.

[Josh Johnson]

Because you like her.

[Christiana]

That's why he was like, did you see the Time magazine cover? They made her look so beautiful. She looked like Melania. And I was like, what? And I'm like, this. This is the land. I don't know. I just think there's some. I could be wrong, but I think there's something to that.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I like this. This is provocative.

[Josh Johnson]

I think you're right.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Love provocative. And I'm gonna double down on Kamala Harris. One of her attributes is she's been beautiful her whole life. She knows how to handle someone like a Donald Trump in politics and in business. A man who expects her to engage with him in a certain way and to leverage that to her benefit. She didn't wake up fine yesterday. She's been fine, like, literally her whole life. And in fact, from both the left and the right, during her political career, lots of men have gotten in trouble for commenting on. Ooh, Kamala. She beautiful. That was Barack, by the way, a few years back. That's right. Off the record. Says something about how, oh, she's the best looking attorney general that we've got. I mean, this has been part of her story to Power, which it would be for any beautiful woman. But yeah, I can imagine it complicates it when she is a beautiful woman who is not supposed to be a beautiful woman to someone like Donald Trump.

[Christiana]

And stares him down in a way that he probably finds a bit attractive. But he's also like, you're trying to take my job.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

You're going frawdy in here. You're going deep on this.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, okay.

[Trevor Noah]

I could be wrong.

[Christiana]

Oh, man.

[Trevor Noah]

Christiana, you took us, you took us into like, fan fiction. Like, no, I mean, and I mean.

[Christiana]

It'S the politics of beauty.

[Trevor Noah]

It is, Trevor.

[Christiana]

It's politics of beauty. Yes, and I think that that is.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but here's the thing. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. I'm not saying, I'm not saying this is. I'm not saying this is crazy at all. I'm just saying it has taken us down a hole of something that is. Because here's the thing. Were it not Donald Trump, I would be like, this is a very funny theory. Hahaha, great. Thanks for entertaining us. But there are a few things that could explain why he acted the way he did, other than what you just said. So for instance, did you see him at the 911 memorial? He did something that he almost never does. He was standing next to Mike Bloomberg, former New York City mayor, and Joe Biden is standing next to him and Kamala Harris is standing next to him. And Trump says to Mike Bloomberg or to somebody else, he says, he like, just, you can see it. He basically goes sort of like, call Kamala. Like, he, he like, gestures towards her and he makes the first, like, move to greet her and somebody taps her and says, donald Trump is trying to. And then she turns and she's like, hey, how you doing? And she like, comes over and she shakes his hand and he like, he lingers and he holds her hand and he tries to pull her in a little bit. And she's got a grip like she was trained by every uncle in the hood who told them what to do when a man holds your hand, she. And she holds him firm. She doesn't let. But I have not seen Donald Trump on many occasions be the person who initiates a greeting or a contact, or be the person who lingers after that contact has been made. And now the idea that Donald Trump was on stage with a crush is one of my favorite theories I never thought I would walk away from after a debate. Josh, your mind right now. I'm telling you.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay. No, no, because this thing that Christiana's done. Now I'm thinking Trump just trying to win so that he could have a peaceful transfer of power, so he could hopefully be alone with Kamala for a second. Just to be in the White House in a room with Kamala and then be like. And then be like, hey, I'm sick of this. Everyone's asking, will they or won't they?

[Christiana]

Ok, for the record, Josh said that.

[Trevor Noah]

And Ivory together in perfect harmony.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

This is the moment when I pull my.

[Josh Johnson]

To Christiana's point for real. As someone who has had their feelings hurt by many beautiful women, it's a hard thing to come back from in real time. If you get roasted and you're like, guys, wait. You're supposed to be in it with me. Cause remember, okay, this is a good example. Cause Trevor, you pointed this out years ago. Do you remember whenever they got caught on that hot mic, it was Trudeau and it was Boris, I think, making fun of Trump. And then he heard it.

[Christiana]

And Macron, he was a good French. Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

And Macron, he was very hurt. And you can tell he was hurt for real. Cause he didn't even.

[Trevor Noah]

He personally hurt.

[Josh Johnson]

He didn't even get nasty. That's how hurt he was. He didn't even get like, well, you know, Macron's like, short and Boris is fat.

[Trevor Noah]

No, he didn't.

[Josh Johnson]

He didn't do any of that. He was like, oh, yeah, you know, I guess politics can be fake sometimes. Like, it was. It was. He really was hurt. And I think that, to Christiana's point, that hurt thing is like, you have to get your get back in a way, that's like, I need the other person to give me something now, which is why I have to keep engaging with them.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

Does that make sense, what I'm saying? Because people have said horrific stuff against him in the debates when they were other Republicans, and he just didn't care. Yeah, Jeremy. Like, he, like they would say stuff about him in general.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But that is the. That is the thing about Trump is from everything I've seen of him, he does not care about those he does not care about. And I know that sounds like a simple statement, but he just does not.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Care, including his own family.

[Trevor Noah]

If a magazine writes about Trump. Yeah, if a magazine writes about Trump and Trump never read that magazine, it may as well not have been written. But if a magazine that was at the pinnacle of its publishing, successful empire comes out with something, and Trump, if he lived through the pinnacle of that magazine or that TV show or that Idea that is his life, Josh. And I think. I don't know. Here's another thing I honestly found myself asking myself about. Is Trump getting crazier, or was this the first time we saw somebody standing next to him who fully was able to display how far he's gone? Which one was it? You know?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, I don't think he's getting crazier, if I'm being honest. I think that to complete your analogy of what you said about me, Trevor, when it comes to a fighter stepping in on short notice, there's a young woman from Brazil named Natalia Silva who's very talented, and she is undefeated right now. But in her debut, in her UFC debut, she took a short notice just to get in, right? Yeah. And she showed up kicking, and the other girl doesn't know anything about her, so she doesn't know she kicks. So she getting kicked. And he's like, this hurts. This crazy. Right? And I think that the kicks for Kamala were reacting to him, like you said, Trevor, the way that we react to him, because no one has done that before. He's been on stage with Republicans, and he's been on stage with Democrats who tried to, like, keep it politics. And this was the first person who was like, what did you just say?

[Trevor Noah]

Like, there was a point where it seemed like she paused. She paused as if she was allowing every single one of us at home to throw in the word that she was not saying. She paused at some point and she went to know that this beep. Former president. And she paused for so long that you could do this bitch. This mother. She, like, she paused with so much intention. But I don't know. I. Okay, like, let's talk about the cats, the Haitian cats thing. The cats and dogs, you know, story. This is what I find myself asking. I go, do you think Donald Trump actually believes that, or do you think Donald Trump believes that people believe it, or do you think he's only using it as a political tool? Because I don't know. When I'm watching that clip, I've watched it again and again and again. I see what looks like belief in his eyes, but I can't tell if he just believes that people are saying it or if he actually believes that these Haitian immigrants are eating people's pets.

[Josh Johnson]

I don't think he believes it with passion. I think that he believes it. I think he believes it, like you said, that people are saying it. And as a political tool, I don't think that he saw that news and that rumor, which is just a Facebook rumor and that he was like, y'all, we have to take action. This is crazy. I think that he had, once again, the 78 year old, old man reaction of like, I'm never gonna be over there. But I believe what you're saying about what's happening over there.

[Trevor Noah]

Jan Fallon's rights.

[Josh Johnson]

He had a very Fox News reaction to him.

[Christiana]

The reason I think he believes, and I do think he's getting a little more unhinged is because for the past four years, he's just been stewing about this loss that he believes was stolen from him. Like, everyone says it's like, oh, it's a conspiracy, but to him it's true. And that's the powerful thing about conspiracies. And I just think he's kind of been stewing in his penthouse, wherever he is scrolling on Truth Social with his Twitter banner. He's in the graveyards of TikTok and Instagram, all the weirdest places on the Internet. And I think he is. He does believe these things. And he's getting stranger because I can't imagine Trump eight years ago saying that people are eating cats and dogs. I just.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

No, I can imagine him saying, can.

[Christiana]

You, can you trust him?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah, no, I can imagine. What I think has happened here is he is responding to the algorithm where as traditional politicians respond to polling, the algorithm is feeding him what he wants. But what used to be true is that it was also feeding people like him that same content. There aren't enough people now on Truth Social getting the same meme about eating pets. And he thinks they are. Because, you know, when you're on TikTok, you think everybody saw that same TikTok you saw. Right. But if you go and you try to talk to someone in the real world about the demure, you know, being mindful, being demure, they have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry, that is a very popular TikTok on my TikTok. But it can.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, no, that's. I think that's pretty.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Is that it's breaking through. That's great to know.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, that's getting.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

But his are not the algorithm that's feeding him. Information is coming through. Again, nobody's on Truth Social that matters. His burner on Twitter wouldn't be tapped into the fire hose of ideas of Twitter. It is now in the, you know, in the echo chambers of Twitter. And so it's feels real, but it would have felt more real to him four years ago. He would have said something just as insane. But there would have been many more, I think hundreds of thousands of people who would say, yeah, no, I'm getting the same message.

[Trevor Noah]

Not locked in anymore.

[Christiana]

Trustee. Do you know what the funny thing is? I consider myself someone who's chronically online to the detriment of my mental health. But I had never heard that cats and dogs thing.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Me either.

[Christiana]

I had to look it up. Right? And I'm someone that's like, on the Internet. It's part of my job. So then I'm like, he's just. He is in QAnon land. So beyond. Even those people are like, what are you talking about? And I think that is a sign that he's crazy at.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I think he got it from the first I saw. It actually was J.D. vance. So I've tried to trace it backwards from where I first saw it. But the first example of that that I've seen online is some neo Nazi at, like, a town hall meeting who starts this whole thing sort of publicly. And I, you know, Facebook as well. But I think it was actually J.D. vance. And I think we talk about Donald Trump and his missteps, et cetera, et cetera. I think the big thing we really take for granted this time around is how stabilizing a force Mike Pence was in Donald Trump's life. Like, sort of to what you're saying, Tressie is like, Mike Pence wasn't in conspiracy land. Mike Pence was just a staunch conservative Christian man who believed that a woman's place was a woman's place and a man's place was a man's place, and this was ordained by God, and that's what was gonna happen. Like, I think that J.D. vance is part of, like, a little bubble that's not helping Donald Trump stay on track. Cause JD Vance has been saying the thing about Haitians eating cats and dogs. And Mike Pence, you find, wouldn't have said that. Mike Pence would have probably been like, this is not true, or this is a scam. But what he would have gone to is he would have said to Trump, yeah, the real issue is immigration as a whole. Like, don't. Don't get bogged down in the cats and the dogs of the Haitians in Ohio. And no, just focus on immigration. Talk about the country. And I think that now Trump has created a world that is only full of people who are, in his tweet, mentions and replies.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, I think maybe he doesn't have.

[Trevor Noah]

Anybody saying to him, nah, dog, don't say that one.

[Josh Johnson]

Exactly. I think maybe the worst thing that Trump has done is get closer to his son. I think that, like, you gotta be.

[Trevor Noah]

Specific about which one. Cause I think you're saying Don Jr.

[Josh Johnson]

Yes, I'm saying Don Jr.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Josh Johnson]

Cause Don Jr. Is apparently why he picked J.D. vance. And J.D. vance is like, feeding him the most, like, actually humorless, least charismatic takes and information. Because this is my thing. If you take away the cats and dogs thing for a second, if you're trying to get that point across, there are probably other stories you can twist that you have verifiable proof happened. This is a weird thing to bring to someone. Cause it's insanity. Right. And so to have it brought to you and then to have it seconded by someone who's also like, too online and too weird in his own way, and then you repeat it and then they leave you out to dry. Cause they back you up on it, but they leave you out to dry. Cause they're the ones that have to face the actual interviews in a way. So then when Collins is talking to J.D. vance, it's like, those are rougher interviews than people realize. Because you open yourself up to some pretty bad reasoning and dark stuff against you when you say that you want evidence that there's no evidence. Cause we don't have any evidence that there's no evidence with stuff that you may have done or not done. Do you know what I mean?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Right, Right.

[Josh Johnson]

And so I think that JD and Don Jr have also taken him to a place to look crazier because he's a gullible person that believes stuff and he's believing crazier stuff. I just don't know if he's actually crazier. But I think I fully agree with what Tressie is saying about how he used to have his finger on the pulse. And you'll see, like, with a lot of content creators. Cause at the end of the day, that's what he is.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes, Josh.

[Josh Johnson]

Like a lot of content creators, you'll see when they don't have the people anymore, that's when they go off the deep end, you know, that's why you.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Reach for the craziest.

[Josh Johnson]

I stopped getting the views and all of a sudden I'm in the woods.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, I'm just so.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

One of the things about JD Is.

[Trevor Noah]

That he's not weird.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I just want to point out he's not only weird. My sense of him, and I feel strongly about this, he is not on Trump's team. He's not Trump's guy. He's not there Wait, what do you mean when you say that? I think Josh is right. He's Don Junior's guy. I don't think he is there to make Trump better. I don't think he is there to moderate Trump. I don't think he is there. I don't think he cares really if Trump wins. J.D. vance is Don's pick and he is there for J.D. vance in a way that Mike Pence, not because he loved Donald Trump, but because he was a traditionalist. If I am the vp, this is what a VP does. I believe in order. I believe in hierarchy. Right. So I will toe the line. J.D. vance is not toeing anyone's line because J.D. vance is there to be the more sensible sounding Trump. Eventually he is interviewing for the top job while pretending to support Trump. So not only is I think he weird and probably feeding him some of the weirdest stuff, he has no impulse to make Trump sound better.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, like he's. I think he wants to make it. He wants Trump to win, obviously, cuz he's on the ticket. But I think that J.D. vance wants to get into the White House with Trump the way that you want to make a flight, just barely like you. You want to slide in there because if Trump barely wins, but then JD can now rise up or start to make him look crazy while he's president. I think he tried to do House of Cards, Game of Thrones, but he's not.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I was gonna say this reminds me of everything I know about succession.

[Josh Johnson]

Right.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

He's some, you know, like he's a family plant to make the patriarch think he's losing his mind and to help facilitate this downfall.

[Christiana]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Not that I think Don Jr. Is that coordinated, but I think JD Vance is that much of a savage.

[Trevor Noah]

We'll be right back after this. This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom Rack. Just in and so good. Thousands of new winter deals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save up to 60% on Sam Edelman, Sorel Free People, Cole Haan and more. Cold weather finds great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. This episode is brought to you by SurveyMonkey. The world is always changing and totally unpredictable, which is fun, unless you're trying to run a business. So if you want to build a product people actually love, keep your customers happy, and stop your team from setting their status to emotionally unavailable, well, you've got to understand what people are really thinking. And to do that, you need to dare to ask the questions that really matter. Luckily, SurveyMonkey makes it super easy to ask the right questions that'll drive your business forward. In fact, SurveyMonkey answers 20 million questions every single day for over 300,000 organizations around the globe. Get answers to your questions go to surveymonkey.com/dare. The thing that I found myself coming back to for this debate in particular was it felt like Trump fell into every trap that Kamala set for him. We all knew about the trap coming in. We all knew. I mean, they even talked about it on Fox News. Some of the Fox News commentators were saying, you know, the main thing Donald Trump has to do is make sure he doesn't say anything sexist and nothing racist. Even if they bait him, don't say it. Which I don't know why I found that hilarious. I was like, the fact that you are out saying publicly that he shouldn't fall for it. He shouldn't say something racist. I'm like, but why would he enlist? But anyway, and then he went into these rants. I mean, he went into, like, the solar panels rant. He went back into ishy black. Like, I read it. It was something I read. And the. And then it got to a point where. To your point, Tressie, you know where he went from being the person making the joke to the punchline? When he's out there taking the illegal aliens who are in prison and they're making them transgender. Even the most conservative right person, whatever. Unless you are deep in, like, crazy, you now have to ask yourself a question. You have to be like, wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry, what did you say? Yeah, they are now taking illegal aliens and making them transgender. Like, now your theories are in your own theories about what's. Do you know what I mean?

[Christiana]

When I watched it yesterday, something I realized is that along with the JD Vances, he has a lot of ultra right wing people in his corner, and they are the ones doing the prep for the debate, hence the conspiracies he was spewing. And what I realized, I was like, you know, we've had these very public endorsements from, like, Dick Cheney, which to me is a red flag. You'd be like, why is Cheney endorsing Kamala Harris? But that's my. That's my own. Kind of like, you're getting all of these very traditional Republicans coming out and saying, we are here for Harris, right? And Mitch McConnell is nowhere to be found. Like, all of these people that we know are operators, and they kind of sanitized Trump the last time. They were like, okay, we're gonna get behind him because we need a Supreme Court pick. Like, we hate this guy, but we're gonna fix him and make him look somewhat palatable. Right? And they did a good enough job of that to get him elected president. And then last time they were like, well, we've got what we want from him. We're gonna abandon him. And I think when I saw him yesterday and he was saying, like, these really wacky conspiracies, I was like, oh, he's been abandoned by the right wing establishment.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes.

[Christiana]

That was all I felt. I felt the people that coached him and prepped him before were able to sanitize him and were able for him to say, like, you guys feel broker, the economy is terrible.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Oh, nice.

[Trevor Noah]

Right?

[Christiana]

Because it was like he was able to resonate, like, the message about Mexicans. They clearly knew there was enough sentiment out there that if you're anti Mexican, you can get away with it. But most people were like, Haitians.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Who the hell are they? Outside of that?

[Christiana]

People are like, you were trying to get us to have an enemy that we're not even familiar enough with Haiti, in the psychic imagination of Americans to be like, we consider them an enemy. Right. And so when I watched him yesterday, I was just like, it's interesting. You know, they talk about the deep. He talks about the deep state, but I'm like, well, the deep state have clearly said, we're not helping you this time. That's what it felt like for me. And that's why I think he fell into all of these traps. Because before they would have said to him, just talk about the economy. Talk about how high the interest rate is. Talk about the fact I should work for him. Talk about the fact that this is how much it costs to put gas in your tank. You know what I mean? Talk about the fact that even with the affirmative action ruling, you still can't get your kid into the college that they want. Those are the things that are gonna get people riled up. And for me, he didn't touch any of that. But, Tressie, I don't know how you feel.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

No, he misdiagnosed. Absolutely. He misdiagnosed the enemy because his information is both dated and, again, extremely insular. And I cannot agree more about the deep state having abandoned him. Because Trump's main power has been. He was a very useful and willing idiot. Right? He was very useful for a strategy that had been in play for 30, 35 years. Right. This is a strategy that they had been executing ever since Ronald Reagan. He was willing to take it the final Step because he has no actual real political career to defend, is, you know, frankly, too self centered to care about his legacy, the traditional things that a politician would care about. So he's useful for their purposes. He is not only less useful now because they've got the Supreme Court, they've got a ridiculous amount of gerrymandering, right? Don't really need him. But I want to add something else. They were terrified by January 6th. The deep state relies on the state. They do not want any. You know who they hate? They hate those people who showed up dressed like Vikings, looking ridiculous. They hate those people. They use them, right? They court them for votes. But the fact that they came to their front lawn and were looking them in their face, they hate that. They never want to interact with that person. They don't want to interact with the Trump voter. They just want the Trump voter to vote for them. And so his willingness to invite them into that inner, to invite his crazy followers into that inner circle, I think the people who had been helping to shape him and make him more palatable and he's less useful to them, they don't really need him. And so abandoning them not only becomes easy, it now becomes self interested. To do it.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, you gotta do it. If you have things and people start breaking things, and these are broke people, by the way. A lot of these people are broke. A lot of these people spent the last of the money that they had to get to Washington to do this thing. You're like, hey, hey, no, not when the pores are breaking stuff. No, thank you. Right. And so you as an elite, you're like, what elite is there if y'all ruin. There were people that climbed the wall next to the stairs. I can't be around these people. The stairs were right there. And look, look, I'm all for. I really am. I'm one of those people that if you bring me a bad enough policy or a corrupt enough government, I'm one of those, shut it down. Let's see. Like, we may have to restart whatever, right? But if we storming and you are climbing next to the stairs, I'm turning around. I don't care what our cause is. You could be right, but I gotta go. I can't just be out here and you climbing next to the stairs and I'm on the stairs and we gonna do the same amount of jail.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That's a good point. That's a very good point, Sean.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, man. Oh, Josh. The idea that, the idea that this all turned for Trump when they started climbing that wall. Oh, we're going to wrap up soon, but I think there are two ideas I just want us to chat about. So the debate happened, it may be the only debate, because Donald Trump has come out and basically said he doesn't want to fight Kamala Harris again because he beat her so badly. He used boxing Josh as an analogy. He said she was terrible and he absolutely destroyed her. And he doesn't think it would be fair to go up against her again. So this may be the only debate. And you know, Tressie. Yeah. I mean, you spend so much time, you know, analyzing the mind and people and society. And let me ask you this question. What do you think a debate is supposed to be and what do you think it is?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

So the debate is morphed into the ultimate political theater. I think it makes us feel like we have more direct participation and control in the political process than we have. So the idea that I, an informed voter, I like the idea of myself as being an informed citizen. This is us taking the class, right? This is us taking election 101. We sit down, we listen to the professors, and it feeds into our sense that we make informed decisions.

[Christiana]

Right.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

We are the informed voters, the people who don't pay attention, they are the bad voters. They're doing it the wrong way. And that's a really seductive way to feel when the actual electoral process has become way more hostile to voters mattering to the process. Right. One of the reasons why Donald Trump is still so competitive is just that he's a Republican and the process is set up for a Republican nominee to be competitive. You could literally put Curious George up as one of the major party candidates and he's going to poll pretty well. So, you know, this is a two party system with an electoral college process. That means that the individual voter does not matter quite as much as we like to think that we do. Matters to turn out and matters to enthusiasm, that kind of thing. But the structure is really, really fixed right now. And the debate makes us feel empowered, makes us feel like we have some say. That's what it does, what we think it does. Anyway, I think what it has turned into in our media moment is a little distinct. It has lost, I think, actually some of its ability to compel attention. We watch it. It's our jobs to watch it. We love this stuff, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I went outside the night of the convention and I live in a pretty literate part of the country where, again, people like to think of themselves as deeply informed voters. And yes, some people were watching It. But there were lots of people walking up and down the street watching the debate on the televisions, in the bars, going, wait, was there a debate tonight? And I think that is just as likely as the informed voter concept. And so I think it has lost some of its appeal as, like, political entertainment, which is why the people who do the horse race, political punditry are so obsessed with it. It's kind of one of the last things we as a media class have where we all have to convene and we all have to pay attention. But my sense is that it's power with the general audience is waning. But it is still important, I think, for making us feel like we are participating. And it is important for a candidate like Kamala Harris, who is potentially transformative and unique, to go out there before whatever public is watching to say, I am, you know, I'm sane, I'm reasonable, and I can do this job. I think it matters to that type of candidate.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it was a. I mean, look, I'm happy that Kamala Harris got the shot. You know, in the world of fighting, you can only win the fights that you're given. You know, I will always be grateful to Donald Trump for giving her the opportunity to step into the ring with him. Because otherwise we wouldn't have gotten this. People wouldn't have gotten the experience. When she came out and shook his hand and said, I'm Kamala Harris, it was such a slick move because it felt like it wasn't about him. It was introducing herself to us, to everyone out there. And I don't know, it felt like. It felt like we are one step closer to seeing something that people thought would be impossible just like three months ago. I won't make the mistake of asking you where you think this is gonna go, Tressie. Cause I know what you say and I know how your brain thinks about this. But yeah, I am going to say thank you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us after the debate. Thank you for watching it with us. And yeah, you've given me a lot to think about. You know, I'll think about politics again differently. I'll think about the debate differently. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Christiana]

Thank you, Tressie.

[Trevor Noah]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avagan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now?