Harris v. Trump: The Day After with Tressie McMillan Cottom

Summary

Podcast Summary: What Now? with Trevor Noah – "Harris v. Trump: The Day After" Featuring Tressie McMillan Cottom

Release Date: November 7, 2024

In the episode titled "Harris v. Trump: The Day After," hosted by Trevor Noah, listeners are immersed in a profound discussion analyzing the unexpected outcome of the recent election where Donald J. Trump secured victory over Kamala Harris. Joined by thought leaders Tressie McMillan Cottom, Josh Johnson, and Christiana, the conversation delves into the ramifications of this result on American politics, the dynamics within the Democratic and Republican parties, and the broader societal implications.

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1. Opening Reflections: Setting the Emotional Tone

Trevor Noah initiates the conversation by probing into the emotional landscape post-election, using music as a metaphor for the prevailing sentiments.

Trevor Noah [00:01]: "If you were to choose a song for the moment that you're experiencing right now, post election, what song would you pick?"

Christiana shares her perspective, highlighting the restless energy post-election with references to "No Weapon" by Fred Hammond and Chopin's waltz in C sharp minor, symbolizing a mix of resilience and melancholy.

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2. Analyzing the Unexpected Victory

The revelation of Trump's win sets the stage for an in-depth analysis of the factors contributing to this outcome.

Trevor Noah expresses astonishment at the international attention the election garnered, emphasizing its monumental nature.

Trevor Noah [07:45]: "Trump's presidency is something people across the globe are watching, as if it's an international event."

Tressie McMillan Cottom reflects on her role in providing hope through her writings, yet acknowledges the emotional burden of the election's outcome.

Tressie McMillan Cottom [08:49]: "When emotions are high like they were during this election, even I feel a little responsible for people's emotional well-being."

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3. Democratic Party's Messaging and Leadership Challenges

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the Democratic Party's shortcomings in the election, particularly their messaging and connection with voters.

Josh Johnson offers a critical view, suggesting that Kamala Harris lost more votes due to lingering perceptions of Joe Biden rather than Trump's direct influence.

Josh Johnson [11:09]: "I think that it was a little bit more about Harris losing... She lost to the memory of Joe Biden."

Christiana elaborates on the perception of Democrats believing they are inherently better but failing to address voters' genuine concerns effectively.

Christiana [14:37]: "Fake humility is worse than arrogance. The Democrats have never kind of taken that [voter concerns] seriously."

Tressie McMillan Cottom emphasizes the Democratic establishment's arrogance and inability to resonate emotionally with the electorate.

Tressie McMillan Cottom [17:30]: "The Democrats assumed that saying Trump could be reelected was self-evident... They did not respond to the right emotional impulse that people had."

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4. Trump's Dominance and the Republican Party's Evolution

The conversation shifts to Trump's profound influence on the Republican Party, effectively redefining its identity and strategies.

Christiana posits that Trump has hijacked the Republican Party, pulling it sharply to the right and establishing a lasting political dynasty.

Christiana [24:03]: "The old guard of the Democrat Party... completely out of touch with what Americans want. And Trump... knows how people feel."

Tressie McMillan Cottom reinforces this by describing Trumpism as a lasting political style and dynasty, extending beyond Trump himself.

Tressie McMillan Cottom [37:39]: "Trump is now a style of politics. It is a dynasty."

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5. The Cyclical Nature of American Politics: A Sports Analogy

To illustrate the recurring patterns in American elections, Trevor Noah introduces a sports analogy, comparing political parties to dominant sports teams.

Trevor Noah [38:55]: "In every sports league... there are generally one or two teams that define the league... that's what the game is."

This analogy underscores the entrenched positions of the Democratic and Republican parties, suggesting that Trump's rise mirrors a sports team's ascendance, reshaping the competitive landscape.

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6. America as a Casino: Opportunity, Risk, and Uncertainty

A compelling metaphor emerges as the guests liken America to a casino—a land of high stakes, where outcomes are uncertain and fortunes can change rapidly.

Christiana articulates this view, emphasizing America's unique capacity for rapid and radical change.

Christiana [63:33]: "America is the one place where nothing is inevitable... It's a casino."

Trevor Noah expands on this, highlighting the dual nature of American politics as both exhilarating and daunting.

Trevor Noah [65:13]: "If you go look at the graph... It's Wall Street. The house always wins."

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7. Infrastructure, Economic Policies, and Voter Engagement

The discussion critiques the Democratic Party's approach to infrastructure and economic policies, suggesting a disconnect between policy implementation and voter perception.

Tressie McMillan Cottom points out that significant legislative achievements, like the infrastructure bill, often receive minimal public recognition due to poor storytelling and communication.

Tressie McMillan Cottom [51:02]: "People like the government best when the government works for them, but they don't know it's the government working."

Josh Johnson concurs, noting that Democrats failed to effectively address economic concerns such as inflation and relatable issues like the price of eggs.

Josh Johnson [21:19]: "They could have attacked this thing... the price of eggs being hot."

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8. Future Prospects: Potential Shifts and New Dynasties

Looking ahead, the guests explore the possibilities of new political figures emerging to challenge the established dynasties within both parties.

Tressie McMillan Cottom speculates on the potential of figures like J.D. Vance partnering with Trump to shape future Republican politics.

Tressie McMillan Cottom [31:24]: "Trump can still be quite a kingmaker... He also can bring the money to the table."

Christiana remains cautiously optimistic, suggesting that age and possible cognitive decline might limit Trump's long-term influence, drawing parallels to historical political figures like Nixon.

Christiana [32:28]: "He's going to be Mugabe... age is going to catch up with him."

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9. Conclusion: The Unyielding House of Wall Street

As the conversation winds down, the metaphor of America as a casino culminates in recognizing Wall Street's unwavering dominance, regardless of political shifts.

Trevor Noah [65:44]: "Wall Street always wins."

Christiana and Tressie McMillan Cottom affirm this viewpoint, highlighting the systemic advantages that financial institutions hold within the American political and economic framework.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tressie McMillan Cottom [08:49]: "This was a moment when people needed church... I kept saying, I'm not seeing it."

• Josh Johnson [11:09]: "She lost to the memory of Joe Biden..."

• Christiana [14:37]: "Fake humility is worse than arrogance."

• Tressie McMillan Cottom [37:39]: "Trump is now a style of politics. It is a dynasty."

• Trevor Noah [38:55]: "In every sports league... there are generally one or two teams that define the league."

• Christiana [63:33]: "America is the one place where nothing is inevitable. It's a casino."

• Trevor Noah [65:13]: "Wall Street always wins."

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This episode of "What Now?" unpacks the complexities of the post-election landscape, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the shifting political tides in America. Through candid dialogue and insightful analysis, Trevor Noah and his guests shed light on the enduring challenges and potential pathways forward in the nation's democratic journey.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

So I've been thinking of every different way to start this conversation, and I thought, why not start with a feeling? If you were to choose a song for the moment that you're experiencing right now, post election, what song would you pick? Because I've had a few spinning in my head, and I feel like this is, like, something that I know part of it is an ADHD brain. But I always wake up with songs playing in my head. But I've started to notice that there's a correlation between the songs and the latent emotion that I'm experiencing. And two of the songs, I Will Survive, has been playing. And not even just for me, but for everyone. I don't know why, but you know me, Christiana. I'm the eternal optimist. So I Will Survive has been blaring in my head, and then the other one has been Living in America. That's all that's been going on. But if you were to pick one song right now for this moment, for how you feel, what would it be?

[Christiana]

I'll go after Tressie. Cause Tressie's been up all night. He's been up more than anyone else. So I feel like you have more songs.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

You know, you think people are your homies, and you see what happens. For whatever reason, Trevor, when you said this, I had nothing in mind.

[Trevor Noah]

You have no music in your head. That's how bad it is.

[Christiana]

Wow.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

No, but the minute you said it, for whatever reason, all I could hear was America. I only wanted to see you crying in the Purple Rain. Wow. Purple rain.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I don't know. It just. You know that moment in Purple Rain when you are crying but you don't know why? I'm not sure who the song's about. I'm not sure why. It's so sad, but it feels like a eulogy.

[Trevor Noah]

It feels like a eulogy, Josh. Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Which J. Cole song is in your head right now?

[Christiana]

Wow.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow. There's more to me than that. I have Diana Ross's I'm Coming out because I think that. Oh, I think that to a certain degree. Now.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That's good.

[Josh Johnson]

People know. Do you know what I mean?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah, that's good.

[Josh Johnson]

We can't act like we don't know. I think this is the last time while at least the people alive now are alive, that they can act shocked.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, damn. Okay, I like this. I like this.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That's good.

[Trevor Noah]

All right, Christiana, what's your song?

[Christiana]

Oh, my God. It's gonna sound so pretentious. That's why I'm like afraid.

[Trevor Noah]

Throw it, throw it. Everything is lost anyway now, so just throw it in.

[Christiana]

So, well, the Pentecostal Emmy. The first song was like no Weapon by Fred Hammond. No weapon formed against me shall prosper. But that's like what I feel like when somebody speeds past me in traffic. So I don't know if it's like, for this moment. And there's a waltz by Chopin in C sharp minor that I love. It's a very romantic and sad song. And I played it during the pandemic and it came up today. So that was. That's kind of my mood. I hate to sound like C sharp.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. I mean, that was.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Is that a song from Bridgerton?

[Christiana]

I don't know Bridgerton, but it's like. It's like one of his most famous movements.

[Josh Johnson]

Once people say what key a song is in, I can tell they read it's. That's it. That's what people do that read. They. They know the keys of songs.

[Trevor Noah]

That is it. I remember. I remember realizing how far I am from sophisticated when Alicia Keys album came out, Songs in A minor. And I thought she was saying songs in A minor like she was a young child growing up and that's what the songs were. And then like, somebody said it one day and they're like, songs in A minor. And I was like, yeah, songs in A minor. And they're like, no, in A minor. And I was like, oh, man, I'm very far from going to the opera.

[Christiana]

My favorite fact about the album is that most of the songs are not in A minor. That's just like, look, you know, but maybe this is why progressive lose elections, because they're so pretentious, right? You're fact checking an Alicia Keys album. The country doesn't want that.

[Trevor Noah]

This will truly be the golden age of America. This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The holidays are almost here and who doesn't love getting a little back? This season, I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on presents I buy for my loved ones with my Apple card without paying a single fee. It's simple and convenient because it's in the wallet app on my iPhone, so it's always with me. And because everything I need is in one place, it's easy to see what I've spent and make a payment. So if you have an iPhone, you can apply for an Apple card and start using it right away. It's easy. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.74% to 28.99% based on creditworthiness rates as of October 1, 2024. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You want to run a successful business? Well, get ready to put in the work. Because no matter what your company does, no matter how big or small it is, it takes a lot of effort. Just look at what it takes to create even one episode of this podcast. We have to plan, we coordinate with guests, we find time to sit down and record, we have to edit, we have to market, and so much more. Now, of course it helps to have a good team, but even finding the people for your team is a challenge because that's extra work you need to do on top of everything else you're already doing. And when you need to fill a role right away, it can feel impossible. Thankfully, there's a place you can go for help. ZipRecruiter. It does the work for you to make hiring fast and easy. The reason it works so quickly is because ZipRecruiter has amazing matching technology. Immediately after you post your job, it finds and sends you top candidates for your role so you can get back to running your business experience faster. Easier hiring with ZipRecruiter. Try it free at ZipRecruiter.com Trevor that's ZipRecruiter.com Trevor this episode is brought to you by Atlassian Atlassian team collaboration software like Jira, Confluence and Loom help power collaboration for enterprise companies around the globe. With products that enable AI powered teamwork, doing the impossible just became possible. So join the 83% of the Fortune 500 that trust Atlassian to help transform their enterprise. Learn how to unleash the potential of your [e-mail] so welcome everybody. Welcome to all of you my friends and welcome to everybody who is who is listening and joining us for our first post election podcast. Donald J. Trump won the election. In case you didn't know this, it's pretty insane. I'm in Australia now. I was in New Zealand when the results came out. And it's wild how this is like an international election in a way that like growing up we knew who America's president was, but we didn't follow the election the way we did. I was in New Zealand watching New Zealand TV in Auckland and they were talking about Maricopa County. Do you understand how strange it is listening to people? And they were like, well, yeah, and if you, if you look at the results coming out of DeKalb, it looks like Trump's really surging right now. And this could be a moment in time when the Trump presidency and you're just like, I'm in New Zealand and these people are as transfixed by this thing as everybody else. You know, it's funny, Tracy, I was thinking back to our conversations. I was thinking back to your writing, and I went back and I read, like, everything that you. I guess it was a conversation that you did for the New York Times five days before the election. And as much as you were trying to give us hope, when I look at your words, you were basically just telling us, weren't you? You just told us. You kept on saying it's not looking good.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Well, you know, it's really tough. My job is to tell things as truthfully as I can. I try to do that well and sometimes beautifully, that's all I can manage. But when emotions are high like they were during this election, even I feel a little responsible for people's emotional well being, you know, And I knew that it wasn't that people were following the polls. It wasn't that people, I think, were looking at the foundational issues. I don't think they were looking at the fundamentals. This was an emotion driven response. So when my friends and my peer group, who, you know, spoiler alert, are overwhelmingly liberal and left, were turning to me and going like, you know, what do you think? I knew they didn't mean, really, what do I think they meant? Make me feel better. Right? Like, people, this was a moment when people needed church. And unfortunately, you know, enough of them don't go to church. They were just looking for, like, some secular, you know, preaching. And the problem is that I'm not a great preacher. But, yes, that was me doing my best to say, well, you know, there's hope over yonder and in the by and the by, I mean, I don't know, I didn't know what else to say.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but you, you know, you, you said the thing and you said it time and time again. You said, it's not looking good. And maybe this is the, this is the first thing that I wanted us to all talk about, you know, because post election and, you know, Josh, you and I speak about this all the time for sports and for the elections and everything else. I love how everybody reverse engineers everything to match the conclusion. I saw pundits on tv, on the news talking about why Harris was going to win and why Trump was going to lose. And then a day later saying, well, I'll tell you why. Harris was always going to lose and she did everything wrong and Trump did everything right. And I just go like, what do you think happened here? Do you think Donald Trump won the election, or do you think Kamala Harris lost the election?

[Christiana]

Oh, that's a great question, Trevor.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Great way to frame it, too. Yeah, great question.

[Josh Johnson]

I will probably have, like, the least critical analysis. I'll just go first so that everyone can forget my answer. I do.

[Trevor Noah]

It's gonna be the best answer. Watch this. I do under deliver over promise Josh Johnson. Nah, 20, 28. I'm voting for you.

[Josh Johnson]

You really just handed you exactly as I see it. Really whelming you. So basically, I think that it was a little bit more about Harris losing, or at least that's gonna become the story of it. And she lost more votes than losing to Trump. She lost to, like, the memory of Joe Biden, who we weren't excited about when that was happening. We were like, that guy's not well. When he ran the first time was like a thing that people whispered. And so I think that there's also gonna be a thing for Dems. I think that Dems have more to assess and learn and people to listen to than like Republicans do, because you learn the least when you win. And I think that's actually what sets people up to lose next time because they're like, no, we'll just do win again.

[Trevor Noah]

We do more.

[Josh Johnson]

You know what I mean?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That is.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I'm serious. That was brilliant. See, I think Trevor's right you way, Josh.

[Trevor Noah]

I know Josh Johnson. I know. Let me tell you something. I know Josh Johnson. If my life was in danger and I called five people and four of them said, we'll save your life, Josh would say, I don't know if I can help, but I'll try. That man is showing up with a rope, and he's pulling me out of that cabin. Let me tell you something. Now, I know Josh Johnson under promise over deliver. That's what he does. I'm running your polls, Josh. You see, I predict. Oh, no. You know, it's funny that you say that. I couldn't help feeling that. And I don't want to say something that's too prescriptive about American politics forever, but it feels like America has gotten to the place where its politics is exactly like sports, in that teams only show up when it's an elimination game. And if the players don't feel like it's an elimination game, people don't show up. Do you know what I mean? So when I think of Trump 2016, his people played like it was an elimination game. Like, for real. For real. They showed up. They were like, this is the end of everything. Remember, they had been coming out of eight years of Obama where they saw the end of their lives. They were like, we are fighting for the future of this country. This is it. It's over. And they voted accordingly. Right then when Trump was in power, his people are like, yeah, he's in power. And then everyone else is voting for Biden because it's Covid. And everyone's like, we have to vote because otherwise we're all going to die. We are literally all going to die in our apartments scrubbing packages because Foushee told us to. And then now Trump's people again are like, it's the end. Like, you saw the Rogan, I don't know if you watched it. The Rogan interview with Elon Musk I found really interesting because it was a very, like, somber mood. It wasn't like a bro thing. They were very much like, this is the end of democracy, and if we do not make this moment last, if we do not make this thing count, this will be the last time we ever see an election ever again. And I feel like they voted like that. And then Kamala people were just like, I don't know. I don't know. You know, I don't know.

[Christiana]

I. Your original question about, like, did Kamala lose or Trump win? I feel a lot of voters that went for Trump didn't necessarily vote for him. They voted as an F you to the Democrat establishment.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Trevor Noah]

You think that many of them.

[Christiana]

Absolutely. I think that, like, the problem with the Democrats is that they think they're better, but they won't admit that they think they're better.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. Fake humility is worse than arrogance.

[Christiana]

Fake humility is worse than arrogance. And I think that they are sick of being spoken down to about the wrong things. I think they're sick of their concerns being dismissed, whether these concerns are over, like immigration, over, economy, over, quote, unquote, black jobs. And the Democrats have never kind of taken that seriously. They've kind of like, you know, Obama came out and wagged his fingers at black men in a way that I thought was not appropriate. And I think enough people are tired of that to either stay at home. I think Palestine was another issue as well. They're like, we're going to stay at home. Like, you're not going to hold my vote. For ransom. And they were saying more f you to the Democrats than that. They love Trump. But I think Trump now is made it so that he's probably one of the most consequential American political figures since maybe Reagan, Roosevelt. I think he'll go down in history as that for good and for bad. Right. But that I think we can make it all about Trump's. But we're missing that the alternative have failed terribly. And as Tressie, as you said last week, like, it's not enough to say we're not Trump. And that's what they were telling people, and that was not enough.

[Trevor Noah]

It sounds like you're saying Kamala lost for you. Like she lost.

[Christiana]

No. Do you know what? Well, this is the thing. I want to push back on that because I feel like they handed the black woman the poison chalice and now we're supposed to throw her under the bus and say. And I'm like, no, Nancy Pelosi and all those elites, they lost. And she was a figurehead.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, so then do we want to say the Democrats lost?

[Christiana]

I say the Democrat establishment completely lost. And I think they became complacent when Biden won. Right? They became very complacent. And Biden was supposed to run again. They didn't do a primary. There's so many things that they did wrong. But I just don't want to say like, Kamala lost. I'm like, no, the old guard who Obama is now part of. Right. The old guard of the Democrat Party, I believe they lost collectively because they're completely out of touch with what Americans want. And Trump, even if it's to their lower impulses, he knows how people feel.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

One thanking you, Christiana, for saying, I also really want to push back on. Did Kamala lose again? As somebody who is on record saying, I thought she was an imperfect candidate, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I also know from both research and my own lived experience that it is really easy and convenient for everybody to blame the black woman. And so I just, you know, always want to stand on that. Having said that, I talked to a lot of people in the run up to this election who should have been excited. And when I say excited, I think people thought I meant enthusiastic. But Trevor, I mean excited like you mean, which is that they felt a sense of urgency.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

The sense of like collective will and collective responsibility. And they were not scared of a day after Trump's reelection.

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

The Democrats assumed that saying Trump could be reelected was self evident. That saying that in and of itself was gonna be so cataclysmically bad. And people would remember how bad it was and remember it the way they think they should remember it. To the point of arrogance, by the way. I think there's a lot of hubris and arrogance in that. And instead I talked to like, and not just like leftists who were mad on policy issues. I talked to Democrats, or should be Democrats who were like, Trump wins. Is my life really that much different than it is today? That's a problem for Democrats who were running not on a platform promoting why Kamala was a better candidate, but promoting why Trump was dangerous. And if that's the only, you know, if that's the drum you're beating, then people need to feel the urgency of that danger. And I kept saying, I'm not seeing it. I'm talking to people who should be terrified, including women, young women who should be terrified post Dobbs. And they weren't. Lots of reasons, I think, for that. But the Democrats did not respond to the right emotional impulse that people had. And so people listen, I think Tuesday or the week before the election can roll around and you can intend to vote. You can think voting would be pretty good, pretty decent to do, but that's not the same kind of urgency that I think a first black woman candidate with a three month long campaign needed. She needed people to feel like, if I don't go vote, I'm going to die. And they didn't.

[Josh Johnson]

And I mean one thing to really back up everything that Tressie is saying, there's messaging that cannot all be left to one person. I think that by and large, most of the people that I talked to, we lost on the economy. And it feels crazy that Dem's lost on the economy because all of, at least the public billionaires are backing Trump. So if you are a poor person and life is not going well for you and inflation is chasing you, because I've even talked about this with friends, inflation. Especially when you talk about inflation during Halloween. Inflation is the killer with the knife. And you as the, as the person who is broke are the person running with a broken heel. So you see in the movie, when you're running with a broken heel and inflation not even bothering to run, inflation walking behind you because they know they're going to get you eventually. It's all the rich people who are the track stars who already got away that are like, that's terrible. Right? If all of the public billionaires are backing a supposed billionaire telling you they're going to make the Economy better for you. And you believe that that is some, that is some true short sightedness. Because as Dems, you could be like, listen, I'm not even going to go after the billionaires because I know those are the billionaires you all like. I'm going to go after you talk about eggs, right? Price of eggs, okay, it's over for Walmart. We're not going to let Walmart price gouge you anymore. And I think that that is a thing that was like so, that could have been so consequential because that's something that is not at all divisive. Who likes the price of their eggs being hot? You know what I mean? So there were little things like that party wise, that's like, you could have attacked this thing. Because what a lot of Republicans did is be like, listen, they're going to make your kids gay and trans. These people are the enemy. Whatever. You can't enemy the enemy all the time, but you can make an enemy out of an actual entity that is hurting you. And that's when you could have been like, he wants to do this for the economy. That tariff thing's not gonna work. The price gouges are what we're gonna take out.

[Trevor Noah]

So here I agree with you fundamentally. But this is where I come back to what Christiana started this conversation on Chopin in, what was it? C major. C sharp.

[Christiana]

C sharp minor.

[Trevor Noah]

So here's what I feel about this. And I've had this feeling from the time I was hosting the Daily show and you remember sitting there, Josh and Christiana and us sitting in these rooms, watching the debates, et cetera. I still say it till this day. I think we take for granted that most people who are voting do not have access to the answer, nor the vocabulary of the answer that like the skilled people have. Do you get what I'm saying? So I agree with you, Josh. But the difference between the two people is like if you said to Donald Trump, hey, Donald Trump, eggs are expensive. Do you know what Donald Trump said? He came out and he's like, when I'm president, eggs are going to go down. We're going to take the prices down, folks. I'm going to bring your energy bill down by 50%. You hear me? 50%. No one said how, no one said why. He just said, I'm going to do it. And then they say, how are you going to do it? Then he says, tariffs, I'm going to make them pay more. And now economists go, no, you see a tariff, if you just apply a tariff like this, what's going to happen is that you've got supply and demand, and then on the outside, the tariff we are actually paying for, blah, blah.

[Christiana]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Trevor Noah]

But people on the ground were like, yeah, he's going to make China pay for my eggs. Now, if you know how to play the piano and you know what C sharp minor is, you're going to look at Trump, quote, unquote, singing the song or playing the song, and you're like, that doesn't make sense. He's off key. But for the person in the street, for most people, I would argue what I call the layman. The difference is most people are hearing this as, ah, this person knows music and they can sing. This person just said C sharp minor. I don't know what that is. And I don't even know who this Chopin rapper might or might not be. I don't keep up with it. What I do know is this person gave me an answer. And now I'm not just saying Kamala and Trump, by the way, I'm using them as, like, the stars of the teams. You know, Jason Tatum, LeBron James. Let's say that, you know, it's the Democrats and the Republicans. One thing throughout this race that the Republicans did well was they distilled it down to an issue that you could identify with, and they made it seem simple in how they were going to fix it. Whether or not it will be fixed is almost irrelevant, but it was a lot easier to understand as opposed to the levers of an economy that no one. No one understands about. No one really understands those things.

[Christiana]

Yeah. I think the Republicans have a long history of having elites that know how to play the fool, because no one is more elite than Donald Trump. No one is more elite than George Bush in terms of their education.

[Trevor Noah]

He's not playing the fall, but let's carry on. No, no, no. Donald Trump is a simple man. Donald Trump, he's from money, but he's a simple man. That man cannot break down a complicated concept for you, because it's complicated to him, he's a simple guy, sure.

[Christiana]

But I think he's probably more exposed than the people he's speaking to at his rallies. But he's not saying that. This is like a Briony suit.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, yes.

[Christiana]

Custom. Even though it looks like shit, he's putting that aside. Right. Which George Bush was very good at, hence why they wanted to have a beer with him. Right. He was like, these people are far more calculating than I think we give them credit. For and they're populist. And I think the Democrats for a long time have believed that's beneath them. Right? So they're going to say C sharp minor rather than it's a good song, it's catchy. Do you know what I mean? And my issue is that we, we've let these people stay in power for so long because the funny thing about Trump is people forget he has hijacked the party. We don't know what comes after him, but he just hijacked it and he's pulled it to the right. And I feel now the Democrat Party is up for the taking. You can burn it down and you can hijack it and pull it to the left with populist language. Like, just like my limited understanding in the time I've lived here, I've seen swings and it's a country that enjoys to swing. I think Trump is the Ying to Obama's yang. So now it's up for the take, like AOC and like those, the squad, they can burn it down and do whatever. And I think that's what needs to come next, that the establishment just needs to be raised because they can't win. They don't know how to do it. But there is an incredible opportunity.

[Trevor Noah]

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve Travel is all about learning and experiencing things in a new, exciting way. But you could get even more from your travels. With the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you can earn three times the points on travel purchases and receive a $300 travel credit. It also comes with plenty of other perks, too, like access to Sapphire's Airport Lounge network. You can relax and refresh with locally inspired menus, a curated selection of drinks and more before getting on your flight. Make the most out of your next trip. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom Rack Just in and so good. Thousands of new winter deals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save up to 60% on Sam Edelman, Sorrel Free People, Cole Haan and more. Cold weather finds great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. As an African, I think we should never take for granted the possibility of somebody leading long after they're technically the leader. And I think Trump, you see what you said is very, is very important. He has hijacked the Republican Party, right? I see a world, a possibility where he Went. He's won. Now, obviously he's won. He's president. Maybe he does 22nd amendment, maybe he doesn't. I think that's less likely. But I can see a world where he becomes kingmaker of the Republican Party for as long as he's copus mentis and alive and savvy. Where he says, where he basically goes, you are now going to vote for J.D. vance, and I'm technically not running, but this is my thing. And his people will still go with.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Him for what he wants, I think.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't think so, Josh?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if you.

[Christiana]

I think it's gonna be the inverse. I think it's gonna be Mugabe. He's gonna be Mugabe, Yes.

[Josh Johnson]

I think if you look at some of the Senate races, I think that, like, there's one thing when Trump is coming to town, it is like when the pop star's coming to town. So if there's a rally for the candidate and the pop star is like, they're doing a feature, they're opening for me, that's cool for the day. And if that's very close to the election, then I think it does swing some ways. But, like, if you don't have Trump's swag, you're not gonna carry Trump's torch. And I think that we saw a little bit of that in 2022 that if you were uncharis. Tiki torch. Exactly, yeah. If you're uncharismatic enough and if you just don't, if you don't know what to do next, like, you're possibly looking to Trump for real policy, you're gonna drown yourself.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I agree with this, which is that Trump, you know, it's on the record that Trump is actually a horrible endorsement to get right. He does not positively influence down ballot races. So most of the candidates that he endorses lose, lose badly. But running for president is actually, I think, a slightly different beast. So, like, no, I don't think he can be a kingmaker for governors. Goodness, no. He doesn't have the level of detail and follow through necessary to get into the weeds of state and local politics and the intricacies of things like that. What he has proven can happen, however, with presidential politics. And I think he has changed this probably for my lifetime, y'all. I think he's changed it because what he has done is he has stress tested the system and said, this is what you can get away with and still win. Right. The structure of electoral politics in this country is set up for a Two party system. It doesn't matter how bad one of those parties is, doesn't matter how undemocratic one of those parties is. Right. So at the presidential level, he has also proven you can kind of shock in awe with presidential politics in a way that you cannot in a state or local race and state and local races. Those people have to live there. Right. Like, there's only so much a governor can do when his kid still goes to school down the street and he starts to, you know, he starts to live there. At the presidential level, you're voting for personality in a way that you aren't in local instead, which is why I think Trump doesn't translate well into those races. But unfortunately, presidential politics has become basically a competition of characters and wrestling characters. Right. I don't think people, to Christiana's point, really care about policy. They care that somebody knows the policy to a certain extent. But you're right, I don't think people want to get into the weeds. I think that is absolute hubris on Democrats part, that if they just sit people down with enough white papers, right. They'll get them to understand. Trump is understood intuitively, by the way. I don't think this is really like a conscious strategy, but he understands intuitively that what people want is they want to feel good. And that is actually good enough in presidential politics to not maybe run the board, but certainly to build you a base. And that's what presidential politics need. They need a base. So I can see a future where there's a JD Vance with a Trump in the shadow who adds the messaging because he is very good at the messaging. J.D. vance is not. He sucks at it.

[Trevor Noah]

Very, very good.

[Christiana]

J.D.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Vance is good at strategy. He knows how to win and he knows how to govern something that Donald Trump is not good at doing. And I actually think that you put those two things together in the presidential level, Trump can still be quite a kingmaker. He also can bring the money to the table. And in presidential politics, money matters so much. And this, you know, unholy alliance with people like, you know, Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, I think it will matter in presidential politics.

[Christiana]

That's so interesting because I don't know, maybe this, maybe it's why I feel so zen about it, because I think he's going to destroy himself in the way that Nixon did because of his deep seated insecurity. But I think if we look at the. Because we're focusing on the fact he won, he was incredibly sloppy. He wasn't as sharp he wasn't the same Trump that, you know, came down the escalator. And my feeling is, is that he's going to decline because he's 78 years old and there's only so much evil and petty that can keep you strong for that long.

[Trevor Noah]

It is.

[Christiana]

And when I say it's going to be Mugabe, they're going to. Is in the way. What they did with Biden. You're kind of pushing this old guy out. He's a puppet, and you get what you want behind the scenes. I just think it's just age is going to catch up with him, and I think we're already witnessing a lot of his cognitive decline and his sloppiness, which is a scary thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, you actually. You think that. I'll be honest with you, I don't see that.

[Christiana]

I don't see, like, he wasn't a sharp. He wasn't a sharp. There was a reason those people were leaving the rally.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

He doesn't have cause. They were like, the same way.

[Christiana]

It's not the same Trump. And that's why I say the Democrats blew it because they lost against that guy in the current state.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

No, he's not peep Trump, but he is still formidable. I don't.

[Christiana]

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree he's formidable. I'm not. I mean, it's kind of like, I don't know, a boxer. I'm terrible with sports analogy. I will leave it to like.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, Josh.

[Christiana]

I think he is in decline, but even in decline, he could beat blue, and that says a lot about the state of blue. That's just.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, that I agree with completely. I would argue that Trump hasn't gotten sloppy. I think that Trump is Trump. He's just the guy really put the work in for this election. The guy was like flying between multiple stops. He was doing multiple shows.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

He was scared of going to jail.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. That was a hell of a motivation. Him and his January 6th people are like, all right, we're fighting for our lives here. And you know better than anyone, Josh, you and I both, we talk about this all the time. When you're a comedian, you're on the road, you have your jokes, you have your set, you're doing your thing. There's a fine balance between doing the show that you're doing and working the new stuff that you hopefully want to become something great over time. Like, you have to watch out for how sloppy you could become if you took every gig that comes your way, because it's inevitable. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you are in decline. You know what I mean?

[Josh Johnson]

But I think that, like, what you're. What you're saying is, like, if, you know, if you tour enough and if you're doing enough, then like, it starts to all sort of get mushy. I think the actual mush is coming from one. Even his base is kind of used to him at this point. There's not as much.

[Trevor Noah]

That is true.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah. There's not as much shock and awe to the shock and awe. So the shock and awe has more become. We're shocked that he doesn't care that his things translate into the real world faster than they ever have. Cause that's what's happening. So he says they're eating the dogs or eating the cats and we laugh at them. Right. Cause that's what we're used to from 2016. But when the bomb threats come in the next day, that's where we're like, wow. Not only are people bold, they're reacting faster. Like the whole anti immigrant stuff with Mexicans, it took a little while and it took him winning for it to get really bold. Now this took like three days. Right? And I think that that shock and awe is more an attitude than it is what he's saying. And I think that that's where people, like, are starting to fall off of him. So I get what you're saying, but I agree with Christiana a little bit more where even if it's not cognitive decline, we're getting so used to Trump that it becomes like. Like you're not surprised anymore.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's. Yeah, that's valid.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I agree with all of this. But when we say Trump, see, I think that Trump is more than Donald J. Trump. And so like, he's 78 and he may be slowing down a bit. And I agree that his material's getting slow, but y'all, I looked at that rnc, I looked at that Republican National Convention, and homeboy has a bench, right? His family alone. We keep talking about his relationship with J.D. vance, but his son is the one who brought J.D. vance into the fold. Trump is now a style of politicking. It is a dynasty. Like the Bushes were, right? Like Obama, coincidentally, has not managed to build. That's part of the reason why the Democrats are suffering. We were supposed to be transitioning to a new dynasty, and it's not there. But Trump is actually presenting one. It is that daughter in law, that creepy Laura girl. Sorry. And that's before we get to the acolytes that are in the Senate, the Matt Gaetz's of the world, for example. Trump is now a style of politics. And when I say that Trump owns the gop, I mean both the man and again, what he has proven as possible for other people in his mold and who are quite committed to him. I was just talking to somebody yesterday, not a Trump supporter, but who has worked with him in a professional capacity. And he's like, what people miss is that the people in Trump's inner circle are loyal to him. They like that man because he's good to them in the way that they understand transactionally, but it's good to them. Right. And so I think we're dealing with a Trump entity for the foreseeable future, whether Trump declines or not. And so when I say that there's a kingmaker, I think kissing the ring, whichever one of the Trumps is wearing the ring at the moment, right.

[Christiana]

Be in his image, like Trumpism as an ideology. I feel that's, it's lasted longer than I ever anticipated. And you know, you're seeing flashes of it all over Western Europe because now you're like, oh, I can lie double down on the lie, say it's fake news and it didn't happen. Right? So it's just like, it's even in our like, common language.

[Trevor Noah]

It's funny. I actually came around to what I think your point is, and I think I may agree with you. So, you know, it's, it's funny. I think sports is a perfect analogy for most things because it's like has, it has such a, it has such a particular structure and support that matches up with politics. And so forgive me for going to sport, but I think of it like this. In every sports league, especially when sports are like, the leagues are young, there are generally one or two teams that define the league, you know, so in basketball there'll be like a few teams. They'll be like, oh, it's the Lakers and it's the Celtics, and those are the teams and they define the game. And that's what the game is. You know, in soccer, it'll be the same depending on which country you. And they'll be like, this is the team. It's Manchester United and it's Arsenal. It's. These are the teams that. And then what happens is like in basketball, for instance, Steph Curry comes along.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Steph Curry comes along and breaks the game of basketball in a way that nobody ever anticipated. He goes, actually, you don't need to go to the rim all the time. You should just shoot the ball from far and statistically it actually is going to work out better for you. And then it grows and it grows and the Golden State warriors gets better and better. And I remember the basketball world going, what, what has happened here? We knew basketball and now we don't. And I argue the game of basketball has never been the same ever since. Right. And so in a weird way, I think of it here is like Trump, like the renegade.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But what he did was he came from the inside, like a parasite taking over its host. So he didn't go, he didn't make the mistake Jill Stein made of saying, like, I'm not in the system. He's like, no, no, no, I'm fully in the system. I am a Republican. Yeah, I am a Republican. Republicans, come with me. And then he said the things and now Republicans didn't have to say, do we choose between a Republican or Donald Trump? They said, no, I like this version of a Republican.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yep.

[Trevor Noah]

And so now to your point, Christiana, I argue that the Republican Party is out of politics in America and the Trump, Trump Party is now in. It's a two party system. It's the Democrats versus the Trumps. And so to your point, there is an opportunity for somebody to come in and do to the Democratic Party what Trump did to the Republican Party and take it over from the inside. Bernie had a moment of it, but maybe he wasn't like the right candidate and the right everything. But there's definitely a moment and an opportunity for somebody to do that, to come in and say, I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why we should close the border. Or I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why we aren't going to support Israel. I am a Democrat, but let me tell you. And they, whatever those things are that they string together, they may be able to take over the host from the inside. And then in the future we'll look back and go, oh, remember the Republicans and Democrats, quote, unquote. But really, America's parties constantly change.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

We just don't realize what dynasty we're in. So we say it's the Democrats, unless the Republicans, but it's not. We are now in the era of the Trumps and the, whoever it's going to be. I guess the vacancy after Obama's.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That's, that's a huge part of the problem. Listen, I just finished saying at the top of the show that I don't like to blame a black woman for everything. Maybe I don't have this problem. With black men. And I'm going to work on that with beside my own soul later after the show because I do think that part of what was supposed to happen did not happen. And the void that was left in the Democratic Party, some of that, yes, by Obama's transition, but also the Democrats cleared the deck in that party to make way for Hillary Clinton to run as the candidate that year. And some of the way they cleared the deck was I think offensive to some people. So you look around, for example, and I kept asking people, where's Castro? Where's like I was naming all these people from like just six years ago and they're like basically gone within the party that was an entire bench of people who were supposed to be that infrastructure of this is the new container for Democrats. Right. But to your point, Christiana, we have had these moments in time before on both sides. It's just that I think that our time for this generation was supposed to be Obama. And if it didn't happen, I worry a little bit that that tends to be like a once in a generation kind of thing. Right. I remember Clinton, for example. Clinton was my first, like, you know, the first American president I was aware of. And Clinton was that type of game changer. He remade the. I'm sorry, the first Clinton. I'm sorry, he remade the Democratic Party over in the image of Reagan. He said, you can stay a Democrat but still like these things that Ronald Reagan liked. And I'm gonna give it to you in these cool, funny southern stories, that's literally his whole magic. And yes, a once in a lifetime kind of politician and a communicator, but that's what he did. Obama came along and kind of teased that, promised that a new Obama coalition that wasn't just supposed to be a coalition of the electorate, it was supposed to be a new coalition of the party itself. When that sort of crumbles because they're demoralized. Cuz Trump wins. And it was a deeply racist response to his presidency, to be fair. And I suspect that was traumatic. But we didn't rebuild after that. And I'm not sure that you get another chance. Like that's not an every four years kind of thing is what I'm saying. I think you have to have the infrastructure to build those people up. And when they cleared the debt, you're.

[Trevor Noah]

Talking about building a championship winning team.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes, I am. I think. Sure. That sounds like exactly what.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's exactly what you're talking about. That's what every sports fan. Every sports fan goes through this every few years.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yeah, because isn't that when he says trust the process?

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. Oh, exactly, exactly.

[Josh Johnson]

Every few years.

[Trevor Noah]

Every few years there's a, there's a moment, you'll be a championship winning team. And it's. There are very few teams in the world that have found it's almost impossible, but have found a way to not go through a period of now having to reestablish and re identify themselves. If anything, I would argue the best teams are just the ones who can minimize the amount of time. But there will always be a moment where you're reconfiguring, you're rebuilding. It's a new moment, it's a new team. You have to go, okay, we are going to lose for a little bit, but we are losing because we're building towards something. We're trying to minimize our losses while losing about what the future will be. And to your point, I think that's where people do not give Republicans enough credit, where they lost hard with Obama. And then they said, we are now going to go to the school boards, we're now going to go to the local councils, we're going to start grinding from scratch. And for eight years, while people are watching Obama, these people with Mitch McConnell are just chipping away, building up this infrastructure that then Trump infrastructure that they've put in. It's not. You know what I mean? Yes, Trump's the star player, but man, they've got a powerful team. They've got a really, really powerful team. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this. This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. No matter how you celebrate the holidays, there is one thing I think we can all share in the magic of Starbucks holiday beverages. Whether it's a Starbucks peppermint mocha, an iced sugar cookie almond milk latte, or the new Cranmerry orange refresher. Whatever festive flavor you choose, Starbucks is here to make every moment special this holiday season. For me, it's as if every sip of Starbucks is a small, magical escape. There's nothing like sharing a moment of joy with my friends and family over Starbucks. So go on, feel the magic. Order your favorite holiday beverage on the Starbucks app today. This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen. So as you start getting ready for friends and family visiting, maybe you should be thinking about giving your guest room a little upgrade. Personally, I've been using Brooklinen for a while now, and I'll tell you, these sheets are made to be lived in. They're soft, durable, Ooh. And they just feel right. Brooklinen's classic and luxe sheets get rave reviews. 200,000 five star reviews, in fact. These are sheets people trust tested by places like Good Housekeeping and gq. They're versatile too, with options for every kind of sleeper. And it's more than just sheets. Brooklinen's customizable bundles make it easy to refresh your whole setup in one go. You can pull together everything from sheets to blankets and throws. So your bed's got layers, textures, the works, all without overthinking it. So come on, refresh your space today with Brooklinen's award winning textures, layers and home essentials. Visit in store or [e-mail] that's B R O K L I N E N dot com. Get 15% off your first order today.

[Josh Johnson]

It's also where, like messaging side of like a Trump presidency. Because now you can lie and you can tell big lies and then you're just not going to do anything. But I do think that if they do any of what they've been proposing and it goes as badly as the economists and all the people who don't know how to talk to people say it will go, that's another thing that I think is very hard to come back from. And that's an opportunity for Democrats to pounce. Because it's like this guy said his economic plan, he said to Trevor's point, we're gonna do it beautiful. We don't even know what that means, but we know it's gonna be crazy, right? Then my man has four years to do it beautiful, right? And then you're poorer than you were four years ago. So if he did it beautiful, it's ugly. And maybe he didn't do anything. That's when the Dems step in with, like, real messaging around. Like, do you feel pretty? Cause if you don't feel pretty, then, like, can I.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Do you feel like, good?

[Josh Johnson]

And that's what we're so bad at sometimes.

[Trevor Noah]

But yeah, Trevor, can I throw something at you, though? And again, this is. I'm gonna say this with the biggest caveat, up top. Because I know this part is not like sports in that people's lives are affected. So I will say that up top. If you look at America's cycle, forget how you feel politically. You cannot deny economically the cycle has been. Democrats have come in, fixed the economy. After the eight years of it being fixed, like, just as they get to it, it's like, oh, thank you, Obama, for getting us out of the recession, people are complacent. And then they go like, actually, we want a Republican in. Republicans come in, they take a massive dump on the economy. Democrats come in again, they fix the thing. But I don't think that Democrats have a problem winning per se, or taking a moment like those opportunities. And maybe, Tracy, this is something you can speak to. I want to know why it feels like Democrats are not trying to make the policies of the voters permanent when they are in power. Do you know what I mean? Why isn't Obama codifying Roe v. Wade? Why aren't they, like, when they have two thirds majorities and when they have the power, why does it feel like. Like when Trump said in his victory speech now, he said, I'm going back to what I said, promises made, promises kept. And I sat there thinking, man, if you're a Trump supporter, you are having a great time. Because that man said, I'm gonna build the wall. And then he pushed with all his power to build it. Now you can argue which piece wasn't built. Yo, there's wall that, like, is there. You know what I'm saying? When he said, I'm not going to start wars or the man, you can argue, but he, even if it feels that way, it seems like he's really pushing and he's putting in the Supreme Court justices that he said he's going to put in. And he's. And he's pushing for these conservative judges across the border. But it feels like Democrats, when they do win, Josh, and they get all that power, they go, okay, we now have all the power. But now would be a good time to talk to the Republicans and ask them how they feel about us wielding our power.

[Christiana]

Mitch McConnell, but Trevor, just to push back. Biden was very progressive in ways. Like the stuff.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I'm not saying. I'm not saying he wasn't.

[Christiana]

I think I feel like Biden was actually as ballsy as I hoped Obama would be. Like, there's stuff that he did that the Republicans were pushing back on hard, especially around infrastructure, et cetera. So I feel like Biden kind of breaks that.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but in a way. But he does. He does. Because don't forget, Biden didn't lose.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Ask. Hey, that's true.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean?

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That's very true.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I almost forgot. I almost forgot.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't do that. Don't forget that.

[Christiana]

I argue that.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

No, you didn't. You are right. Okay.

[Christiana]

He did not. You're absolutely correct.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Okay. So this cycle that you talk about. Totally.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

A known thing, right? So Democrats with some variability tend to build up the state or build out state capacity, and Republicans shrink it. What I think happens with people, though, like, why people don't reward the building of the state capacity that actually could possibly improve their lives is I think it's a couple of things. I think, one, it's back to the story of that's not a fun, sexy story. You even take Biden, right, Who I think this was part of his challenge. Inflation was sexier than the fact that he had pushed through the most meaningful climate change legislation that this country has managed to get off of the ground. Because he called it something boring. He called it infrastructure. Right? Yeah, he hid it in that. And that is the way that you make legislation work. But it is a terrible story. I say, as a writer, right, nobody wants to hear about the infrastructure bill, but it does improve your life. It's just that the dots connecting that big boring thing to your everyday life and how you feel about it. Not a great story. The second thing is that people like the government best when the government works for them, but they don't know it's the government working. So the government's got a real branding problem here, right? Like, everybody loves for the trains to run on time, but nobody wants to pay for trains. So, you know, again, it's a hard story to tell because they're expensive, they're slow, they take a long time. And I think that's the third and final thing I would say some of the big projects that we need done, especially now, these are big projects, right? These are things that we would be voting for today. And the people voting for it probably won't see it come to fruition. Like, you're probably voting for something for your kids. And like we say we do that. I'm voting for my children's future. No, we not. People don't vote for their kids. Future people vote.

[Josh Johnson]

I haven't even met my kids yet.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

When kids ain't met their kids, they don't know what them kids at. They don't care. Like, when it comes down to brass tacks, I'm not coming after the parents. I'm just saying, loving your kids.

[Christiana]

Oh, no, come for us, Tressie.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Loving your kids in theory and loving them when it comes time to vote. When you are motivated by all of your own stuff, right? It's not that the dad went in and voted against his daughter not having healthcare. Like, yeah, we get that. You know, conceptually, maybe, but he's like, oh, no, my kid won't have that problem. As long as I can make enough money, she doesn't have these issues. So really, I'm voting my echo and I'm gonna buy her out of this whole abortion, reproductive health nonsense. Right. Like, there's always a way, I think, for people to motivate a story about loving their kids that happens to conveniently fit their ideological priors. And so when you start coming at people on that emotional level, and that's the kind of stuff that Democrats tend to fall back on because, again, it's hard to write and sell a sexy story about building bridges.

[Christiana]

And also Tressie to, you know, piggyback off you. I think that we can be frank and say that people are a bit sexist. Oh, yeah, people are a bit racist. People really don't care that much about whether their neighbor can get an abortion. Oh, yeah. No, you know what I mean? They're like, oh, you're angry because I won't let you kill your baby.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

No, that is true.

[Christiana]

Right. And so it's just like, I think Trump and Trumpism appeals to a way of life that Democrats think is way beneath them and has no place in their party but a way of life that is very human nuance. And like, this would. This was a culture war as much as, like, because, you know, the Wall Street Journal did a piece about how, like which, whoever becomes president is going to inherit one of the strongest economies America has ever had.

[Josh Johnson]

Right.

[Christiana]

That is just a fact, Inflation aside. But people really care about culture and how they live day to day. And they look at the Democrats, whichever way you put it, whether it's from race or gender or sexuality or schooling, and they're like, I don't like that. So the Democrats need to figure out a way of making who they are seem palatable. And I think Obama was really a master of that. He was like, I am all these things and I'm still one of you and you're part of me. But the Democrats have moved away from that. Right? And they need to figure out a way to get back to that and talk about these issues in a way that are really palatable. Because I think even issues that seem really thorny, like trans rights, when you speak to someone and you break it down, they're like, huh, Okay, I don't want to be mean to that person.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Right?

[Christiana]

But, like, if you really break down what the experience is, imagine being born in the wrong body. People are like, that's messed up, like, when you put it in that language. But when you turn around to someone and the first thing you say, you're transphobic. Bigger. Da, da, da, da. You kind of lose them. And so I think the Democrats really need to figure out how do we make how we speak about these life issues that people are grappling with palatable in a way that they know that being with us is being on the right side of history.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, strongly. And politicians, especially people who didn't start in politics, this is why Trump does. Well, a lot of these people who like, are calculated enough to know they want to be president by the third grade are also not good at talking to people in the third grade. So they've had a lifetime of not knowing how to talk to people. And these are the most successful people who don't know how to talk to people.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I really do. A kid.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah. And it's like they always wanted to be class president. Like they don't know how to talk to people. And one of the things which, like Tressie, I think you and I can speak to this specifically, which I'll be interested in whether or not you agree with me. But like, there's human nature and then there's American nature. And there's something to be said for in American nature. There is this like, I think it was like Stokely Carmichael that said, like one of the biggest grifts America ever had was convincing you you could be as rich as a Rockefeller next year. And it's like a lot of these other countries talk about Scandinavian countries who grab countries that are doing well and this, that and the other, one of the things they don't have, they may have criminals, they may have scams, but they don't have ball out culture in that way. And a lot of Americans don't understand the difference between struggling economically and not being rich, because I think that there are so many people who are struggling and we don't really care about those people by and large either party day to day. But what we care about is making people who already have a little bit of money feel like they can have a lot of money. Cause that's like the wave. You do end up with a huge problem in communication. And that's kind of what I mean where I'm like, eventually America and Dems especially will have to figure out how to break the mold of like this mythology that a lot of, I mean, if I'm being like completely blunt, a lot of upper class white Americans have, which is all things being left alone. I will be incredibly successful in this country. And then there are people who understand the reality of competition, especially Black women. Right. And I think that you end up in a place where if you cannot convince people that you can help them by doing something for them, you'll keep convincing them you can help them by doing something to someone else. And eventually that won't work. But it won't work if you get the messaging right after it fails. And that's like, the crucial point. Like, people are actually not better off. And if all you can say, Kamala did it during one of the debates. She was like. She was so confident and she was so right that she was like, you know what I'm gonna tell you to do? Go to one of his rallies. And I bet you leave early. And that's why it hurt him, because it was true.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yes. And it was in his language and in his people's register. That's exactly right.

[Josh Johnson]

Exactly. And I think that if you as Dems, get the old guard out and get the new guard in of people who are desperate, who think they're gonna die and know how to talk to people, now, you can get the people who just say they're running for a Senate race, they're running for a gubernatorial race, and they're like, I want you to go home tonight. I want you to open your Chase account, and I want you to look at it now and take a snapshot and then look at it in two years after I've been in office. But, like, that's. And I think that's how you beat people.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I will be your first bundler, Josh. I will. I know, like, 20 people right now with a $100 laying around. I will bundle those hundred dollars for you, because that is the big political economy question. That's all Josh has described. And I could not agree with them more. You gotta solve a long, deep, hard problem for people. And until you actually solve those fundamentals, which neither party is really trying to do, somebody like Trump will be able to come along and sell a story about it. And. And yes, people will eventually become disappointed, but they'll just buy another story. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Is it not just inevitable? Like, is America not just going to be in this cycle forever? And, like, you know, and I don't want it to seem like I'm being dismissive, nor am I being, like, a little Buddhist about it, but it's like.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

It is very Buddhist. I was thinking that the whole time. So Buddhist.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

I do think that there's a. There's. If you take it to an individual level, there is a cyclical nature to approaching politics, because everyone who is not in politics can be in it all the time, which is why I think people care once every four years. And I think that's why they think that's the only election that they have to vote in. And, like, you know what I mean? I try to vote all the time, and sometimes I go to vote and I might be the only one who win. There are sometimes where I'm like, I see poll workers and nobody else in here, right? And I think that to what Tressie was saying earlier, it's like there is a urgency then complacency in rotation. And so I think that when it comes to politics, there is a little bit of, like, a need to find out over and over again. A y'all must have forgot over and over again.

[Christiana]

So in terms of the inevitability of it all, I think America is the one place where nothing is inevitable. The reason I moved to America, like, you know, most immigrants or expats, whatever you want to call me, is because of opportunity. And living here, I've realized about this country, it really is a casino, right? That is all it is. And sometimes you throw the dice and you win big, and sometimes you lose everything you have. And what. What makes America so intoxicating and remarkable is the fact that it is a casino, right? And like you go to most of Western Europe, society is set, caste is set. You can't get out of your class. America is the only place where you could get an Obama and you could get the Trump, a Trump. You could have slavery to Reconstruction to Jim Crow to present day, and see the change in black people, right? The advancements and the remaining of suffering is so contradictory in that way. And one thing I've learned living here, if there is any country that has the capacity for revolutionary and radical change in an incredibly brief period of time, where we take, like, England, like 75, 100 years, America can do it in seven. And we've seen that with Trump, right? He's a big example of that. Like, you don't know what's coming next. And just like we had an Obama, we may get an Obama that makes good on the promise. And now that Trump's in power, I think there is a vacuum for that. And there is a way that we could just lean into the darkness and be like, okay, the darkness is gonna win. And I'm not like, you know, I'm not optimistic about shit. I like. I think humans are terrible. So this is not coming. But this is just like, the American experiment is a heartbreaking, but also a very remarkable one. So there is a scenario where something comes out of this that is completely unexpected, apart from, like, me being deported, which is probably gonna happen by the time he gets in power.

[Trevor Noah]

I actually love that. I love that as an idea. And, you know, I think that's a beautiful place to end. It actually is like, it is the casino, and I think that's what makes it spectacular. Is that exactly what you're saying? We've seen so many moments where the dice has landed perfectly. And, man, you can't deny being around for those moments in America is a pretty special feeling. And then we've also seen moments where, like, now, ironically, it depends on whose view you're taking. Are you. Are you. Because if you're right now, if you're not a Trump supporter, you're seeing it from the perspective of, like, you rolled the dice and you lost everything.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But if you are a Trump supporter, you're going.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That's right.

[Christiana]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Somebody has won. Somebody has won. Every time someone loses in the casino.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

The best time to be an American that they have ever experienced.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. It is exactly that. That is the most perfect analogy I've ever heard, Christiana. Because if you've spent. I've spent a lot of time in casinos. Comedy and casinos go hand in hand, unfortunately. Let me tell you something. Now, it is the most depressing.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Yep.

[Trevor Noah]

And inspiring place you have ever been in your life because you'll see one person in a corner mortgaging their house or bringing a pink slip for their car because they've lost it all. And on the other side, you will see somebody who's just made 30 new friends because they're on a hot streak of rolling the dice, and it's all going well and that. Yeah. So in. In many ways right now, I guess you're right. People just have to keep rolling the dice. And it also means America. America could lose. America could lose everything.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

That. Yes, it is a casino, but I think the house always wins. Isn't that what we say about the casino?

[Christiana]

That's trustee.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I agree with that, too, y'all.

[Trevor Noah]

That's a casino.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I guess what I'm saying is I want to be the house.

[Christiana]

If there's a country where you can be.

[Trevor Noah]

I'll throw this at you. Actually, you know, when you say the house always wins, I think of this while. Literally, when we started recording this, I looked at the stock market, and it has rallied to its, like, greatest. A trillion dollars. You know, like, there was a trillion dollars has been added to the stock market, and that is the house. And I Think that's something. You know, Josh, you touched on it in a beautiful way. Tracy, you talk about all the time. Christiana, we. If you think about it, no matter who wins or loses the elections in America.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Wall street always wins.

[Christiana]

Yep. Yep.

[Trevor Noah]

That's the house, baby.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Now you're talking my language.

[Trevor Noah]

You will lose. You will lose your house. You will not be able to go to school. You will lose your factory job. Jobs will go to Mexico. Your kid won't be able to go to school. You'll feel like the schools are racist. You'll feel like trans people are taking over. You'll feel like sports is not what it used to be. You'll feel like people can't say what they want to. People can't use certain words. You'll feel like it's good, it's bad, it's this. But can I tell you who has never stopped winning?

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

If you go look at the graph.

[Christiana]

Absolutely.

[Trevor Noah]

It's Wall street. The sm.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

The SMP that.

[Trevor Noah]

The smp. Yeah. The house always wins. Well, once again, Tressie, thank you very much. I. I started this conversation feeling great, but I. I feel even greater right now. You know, you. You step in every, every time, and, yeah, you make all things great again. You mega, Tracy. That's who you are. You are my mag.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

I felt where that was going in an instant, and you still got me. And I was going to tell you how happy I was to see your face. That's what I was going to say. I was like, look at that face. I'm so happy.

[Christiana]

Josh, it was so good to see.

[Tressie McMillan Cottom]

Your cute little face. Josh, it was so good.

[Josh Johnson]

Thanks so much.

[Christiana]

Always a pleasure.

[Trevor Noah]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.