Have We Missed The Message? with Ta-Nehisi Coates [VIDEO]

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Have We Missed The Message? with Ta-Nehisi Coates"

Podcast Information:

• Title: What Now? with Trevor Noah
• Host: Trevor Noah
• Guest: Ta-Nehisi Coates
• Release Date: October 10, 2024

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1. Introduction

The episode features a profound conversation between Trevor Noah and acclaimed writer Ta-Nehisi Coates, delving into complex themes surrounding black identity, systemic oppression, and global conflicts. Coates discusses his latest work, "The Message," which explores topics such as book banning in South Carolina, his journey to Senegal, and the intricate dynamics of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

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2. Black Identity and Media Representation

Trevor Noah opens the discussion by reflecting on the portrayal of blackness in popular media—from "Good Times" to "Fresh Prince." He critiques the oversimplified and conflict-free representation, questioning its impact on black identity.

• Trevor Noah [00:00]: "When I was growing up from Good Times all the way to Fresh Prince, I was seeing a different type of blackness where it wasn't its full complexity."

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [05:07]: Acknowledges the challenge of being perceived solely as an intellectual, expressing a desire to connect more authentically with friends and family.

Coates emphasizes the importance of embracing the full spectrum of black identity, moving beyond stereotypes to acknowledge the inherent complexities and struggles.

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3. Book Banning in South Carolina

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Coates's experiences with book banning in South Carolina, particularly concerning his book "The Message." He discusses attending school board meetings where his work was challenged, highlighting the resistance to narratives that expand students' perspectives.

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [45:43]: Reflects on defending his book against local opposition, noting the attempts to ban it based on self-interest and fear of expanding educational horizons.

• Christiana Mbakwe [45:02]: Comments on the personal impact of combating censorship within his community.

Coates underscores the broader implications of such efforts to restrict educational content, viewing them as attempts to maintain control over narratives and limit critical thinking among students.

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4. Israel-Palestine Conflict and Coates's Perspectives

Coates delves into the sensitive and contentious issue of the Israel-Palestine conflict, drawing parallels with historical instances of oppression and segregation. He critiques the dehumanization inherent in such conflicts and the role of American foreign policy.

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [16:52]: "Understandings have histories, that they happen in the course of events. The example I think about all the time is like, Nat Turner, right?"

• Trevor Noah [26:14]: Questions why Coates begins discussing Palestinian narratives with Jewish history, probing the reasoning behind contextual framing.

Coates argues that removing context from conflicts leads to dehumanization and justifications of violence, emphasizing the necessity of understanding the historical and systemic roots of such issues.

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5. Personal Identity and Colonialism

The conversation shifts to Coates's personal journey in Senegal, where he confronts his African roots and the lingering effects of colonialism on identity. He explores the concept of "niggerology" and the psychological impact of historical dehumanization.

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [53:29]: Discusses the internal conflict of appreciating Senegalese beauty while grappling with ingrained colonialized perceptions.

• Christiana Mbakwe [64:21]: Highlights the enduring impact of colonialism on beauty standards and self-perception among Africans and the diaspora.

Coates reflects on his struggle to reconcile his African heritage with the distorted self-image imposed by systemic oppression, illustrating the deep-rooted challenges in overcoming colonial legacies.

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6. The Role of Storytellers and Journalists

Coates emphasizes the responsibility of writers and journalists to tell authentic stories that capture the nuanced realities of oppressed communities. He criticizes those who sensationalize or distort narratives for personal gain.

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [73:20]: "The book is written to my students, and this is something I'm really trying to drill in them. You really have to touch the thing."

• Trevor Noah [70:58]: Acknowledges the pivotal role of storytellers in shaping perceptions, urging the importance of firsthand experiences in conveying truth.

Both Coates and Noah advocate for a more empathetic and informed approach to storytelling, where the humanity of individuals is preserved and accurately represented.

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7. Conclusion

The episode concludes with heartfelt exchanges celebrating the shared experiences and kinship among black communities globally. Coates and Noah underscore the importance of understanding and confronting systemic injustices while fostering a sense of unity and resilience.

• Trevor Noah [73:10]: Expresses gratitude for the meaningful discussion and hopes for continued dialogue across diasporic communities.

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [73:13]: Highlights the beauty and necessity of bridging diaspora divides through open conversation.

The conversation leaves listeners with a profound understanding of the intricate interplay between personal identity, historical context, and global socio-political dynamics.

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Notable Quotes:

• Trevor Noah [00:00]: "When I was growing up from Good Times all the way to Fresh Prince, I was seeing a different type of blackness where it wasn't its full complexity."

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [05:21]: "I am rarely the smartest person in any room. I'm not the funniest, not the best looking, I'm not the best, most athletic."

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [12:17]: "I'm always trying to sacrifice and bleed on the page, you know, I really need you to feel like my work is worth your time."

• Trevor Noah [26:14]: "Why would you start telling the story of the Palestinian people? That chapter? Why would you start that story with the history of the Jewish people?"

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [37:07]: "Either you think there are good reasons for segregation, apartheid, Jim Crow, or you don't. In my mind, there is never any reason."

• Trevor Noah [43:35]: "Don't go anywhere because we got more."

• Christiana Mbakwe [64:21]: "Colonialism did a number on us... it warped our sense of what is beautiful, separate from African Americans and the media and stuff like that."

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [71:37]: "You really have to touch the thing. You got to touch it, you know, you got to feel it."

This episode offers a deep and thoughtful exploration of identity, oppression, and the power of storytelling, providing listeners with invaluable insights from one of today's most influential thinkers.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

When I was growing up from Good Times all the way to Fresh Prince, I was seeing a different type of blackness where it wasn't its full complexity. And so I was like, we gotta get to that. And then the music filters to us and the style filters to us and the vibe filters. You get what I'm saying?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I do.

[Trevor Noah]

And because it is novel and because it seems to be completely like, you know, devoid of all conflict and struggle, in a weird way, we aspire to it. And then I came to America, and then I met black Americans who were all like, man, I can't wait to get to Africa. Man, I can't wait. They're like, man, I gotta, man, do it. And I was like, wait, what? I was like, My cousins were trying to sound like Tupac. You know what I mean? My cousins were trying. And I was like, wait, we're trying to come here, and you're trying to come here. Ta. Nehisi Coates is not just one of the sharpest and most beautiful writers working today. Every time he puts something out, it seems to shake the world. The case for reparations between the world and me, his work on Black Panther and his new book, the Message is no different, because in it, he travels to South Carolina to tackle book banning. He goes to Senegal to rediscover roots that he's not sure he has. And then he delves into one of the most difficult subjects in the world today. Israel, Palestine. Most people know his work, but very few people know the man behind the words. And so this week, I sat down with him and my good friend Christiana to get into the conversations that he doesn't always get to have and try and figure out how and why he sees the world the way he does. This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The holidays are almost here, and who doesn't love getting a little back? This season, I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on presents I buy for my loved ones with my Apple card without paying a single fee. It's simple and convenient because it's in the wallet app on my iPhone, so it's always with me. And because everything I need is in one place, it's easy to see what I've spent and make a payment. So if you have an iPhone, you can apply for an Apple card and start using it right away. It's easy. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.74% to 28.99% based on creditworthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2024 Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You want to run a successful business? Well, get ready to put in the work. Because no matter what your company does, no matter how big or small it is, it takes a lot of effort. Just look at what it takes to create even one episode of this podcast. We have to plan, we coordinate with guests, we find time to sit down and record, we have to edit, we have to market, and so much more. Now, of course it helps to have a good team, but even finding the people for your team is a challenge because that's extra work you need to do on top of everything else you're already doing. And when you need to fill a role right away, it can feel impossible. Thankfully, there's a place you can go for help. ZipRecruiter. It does the work for you to make hiring fast and easy. The reason it works so quickly is because ZipRecruiter has amazing matching technology. Immediately after you post your job, it finds and sends you top candidates for your role so you can get back to running your business experience faster. Easier hiring with ZipRecruiter. Try it free at ZipRecruiter.com Trevor that's ZipRecruiter.com/Trevor. This episode is brought to you by Atlassian. Atlassian team collaboration software like Jira, Confluence and Loom help power collaboration for enterprise companies around the globe. With products that enable AI powered teamwork, doing the impossible just became possible. So join the 83% of the Fortune 500 that trust Atlassian to help transform their enterprise. Learn how to unleash the potential of your [e-mail] yeah man. Ta Nehisi, welcome man.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Thanks for having me. This is what we're going to do the whole show because we can. I can keep going.

[Trevor Noah]

We can. Actually, that's the first thing I do want to ask you is like, do you ever, like, do you ever miss being treated like a normal human being? Because so many people, I think, see you as only an intellectual body.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

That I don't know how many people just like shoot the shit with you.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Well, fortunately I have family and friends who really don't care. They just don't care. You know, I've been thinking about this a lot this week. It's very, very important. Like I'm a writer and so that gives me a kind of status, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

But I am rarely the smartest person in any room. I'm not the funniest, not the best looking, I'm not the best, most athletic. And so that, that's good. It's, you know, good to be reminded, you know what I mean, that the thing out here, this is the abnormal thing, you know what I mean? And then there's life.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you pop into the abnormal thing and then you live mostly life?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I try to stay as far away from the abnormal thing as I can. It's very deceptive and I think it can damage people.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So what's this like going fully back into the abnormal thing, promoting a book?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know, it's dangerous in a very particular way. Like, I think, like, this sort of thing is always dangerous, but it's dangerous in a particular way because you actually are speaking on behalf of another group of people.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It's not really your story for a lot of it. And so you're trying to take extra care with it while at the same time still being you for sure. Frankly, I don't know how long this can go on for.

[Trevor Noah]

What do you mean by that?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I just, you know, there are, and we've experienced this as black people, like watching maybe white people who end up in spaces that we cannot be and advocate for us. And it's like, I don't. There's just great danger in being that person.

[Trevor Noah]

Huh?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know what I mean? And there are people who, I mean, this is like where my darkest thoughts go. There are people who profit off of those positions. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I have to say what I really, really need to say, and then I really, it's very important that I get out the way, you know, like, it's really, really important and that I, you know, go on the next, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

That's an interesting thought because you. I think everyone has a different example of it in their heads, but I know for a fact I've seen people who, you know, it's seldom writers, I think more people on social media where they sort of traffic in the pain and suffering of others at first they're bringing awareness to it that right there and then at some point you're like, yo, is this your. Is this how you make your money now?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Trevor Noah]

They're almost like ambulance chaser lawyers where you go, I don't know if you actually care that people got hurt at work. Yes, I feel like this is how you make your money now.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

That's it. That's it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So you're concerned about, like, people conflating somehow the things you're discussing with the project you're making and saying, you're the spokesperson now.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes, yes, yes. But I would say even more deeply, like, my intention. My intention is to make room within the frame for people who have been pushed out of it. That is my intention. So it's not even like a. It is a concern about perception, but there's a deeper concern about purpose. I think, like, one of the questions I often or I've gotten over the past few days. Are you worried about the pushback? Are you worried about the blowback? Not really. I mean, I kind of knew what that was, and I knew what was going to happen going into it. But once the attention started, I think the thing I immediately began worrying about was becoming the guy and not clearing space for people who really, truly, truly, truly know and can really, really speak in a way that I actually cannot.

[Trevor Noah]

It's difficult, though, you know? So I remember when I started on the Daily show, and, like, Christiana has been with me almost, like, from the beginning, because. When did you come in?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

2017.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I love that you know the date.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yes, I love that you know the date.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But it was early, so I've been there. That means I've been only for a year. I've been hosting. Right. I'd been there two years, but a year hosting. And I remember exactly what you were saying. What I always loved on the Daily show was that I had a platform and an opportunity, and I always saw it as, like, not an obligation, but, like an opportunity. I was like, oh, this is cool. We get to talk about these ideas. And Christiana was always the person, like, filling in gaps for me, and she's like, oh, Trevor, have you heard of this story? And I think there's a way we could look at this. And to give credit to the building, there were many people who did that. It was like a brain trust that, like, sort of, you know, and then I was the sponge and the filter who goes, I don't know if we. That works. I don't know if this works, et cetera. But to your point, it's like we would. Let's say we talk about a shooting that takes place, and then we talk about another shooting. But then very quickly, people would be like, oh, hey, there's more shootings, and there's more shootings, and you got to talk about. And then it's weird because on the one hand, you want to be the person who gives voice to a topic but on the other hand, you don't want it to be your thing.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

Because in a strange way, you can either lose yourself or you can make people feel like it's you trying to make it your thing.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right, right, right. And you cheapen maybe the thing that you're trying to actually bring attention to.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know, so, you know, and I've been actually thinking about. And was just in a conversation with someone about this earlier today about, like, what I can do structurally that is not visible, that is not, you know, public, you know, to advance that aim.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's so interesting. I love the book, by the way.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Oh, thank you.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I was.

[Trevor Noah]

It would be great if you said you hated it. What a joy.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I've been through that.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I didn't hate it. I didn't think maybe this. My politic. It wasn't that radical. I was like, this is not that extreme. I was like, this is perfectly reasonable. That's how I read it. But the thing I was most profoundly moved by was your reflections on childhood. Because I'm raising children now, and I often think about how my son is experiencing his childhood, how my daughter is experiencing her childhood. And when you spoke about being a restless child and the confines of the classroom.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And, you know, reading kind of being this retreat from you being passed down by your parents. And it was like you spoke about the portrait of your father made that you're carrying with you. And I was like, to me, it was like a reflection on beautiful parenting, in a way, but also a child that probably wasn't that happy a lot of the time. And I was just. I was. To me, it was remarkable that this child that was so restless, that would cry about a story about that.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Well, you really read the book.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Is the same child that ends up in Dakar. And it's being like, oh, they see me as mix. And is now in South Carolina dealing with this teacher. To me, it was just like, you know, you call your books your children, but it was so much about you, was very personal and very introspective. And I feel a lot of that is being missed in place of the final chapter and what you experienced in Israel and Palestine.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know, it's funny. I knew that was gonna happen, too.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And I was okay with that. One of the cool things about books is, like, they sit there and so people will come back and they'll see that over time. And in terms of just getting to the more personal aspects of stuff, I always tell my writing students, like your readers could be doing anything else. You know, they could be watching tv, they could be on their smartphone, you playing video games. You really have to justify the time.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Like, you really.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And so, like, I am always, like, trying to sacrifice and bleed on the page, you know, I really need you to feel like my work is worth your time.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know, and so I'm trying to give everything I can, you know, when I'm writing.

[Trevor Noah]

Let me ask you a question about, you know, like, on a human level. I honestly have to ask you this because I very seldom get angry on people's behalfs. But, man, we haven't been able to stop talking about the CBS interview.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Wow.

[Trevor Noah]

And I mean, when I say we, I don't just mean the people who make this podcast.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, like, my friends, people online people.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And I. I'm totally off.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Oh, you really?

[Trevor Noah]

Let me tell you.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Oh, you're off. I'm completely on.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Oh, people are not happy about that.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I mean, I'm obviously hearing from other people.

[Trevor Noah]

Let me fill you in. Let me fill you in. I don't think you understand the shockwave that interview created, not because of what you said, but because of the way people felt like you were treated. Just the opening selve of that conversation. And I'll never forget the question that you get asked where I think it's Tony who says to you, when I.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Read the book, I imagine if I took your name out of it, took.

[Trevor Noah]

Away the awards and the acclaim, took.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

The COVID off the book, the publishing house goes away.

[Trevor Noah]

The content of that section would not.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Be out of place in the backpack of an extremist.

[Trevor Noah]

Yo. I sat there. I don't get flabbergasted by much. I genuinely don't. I sat there and I was like, what? My first thought is, yes, but if you remove every context from everything, then everything could go anywhere. You know what I mean? If you remove America's history and America's Jews, then it's like, yeah, those people who fought against the British, they were terrorists.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean? You can call it, like, yeah, the Boston Tea Party. That's terrorism. If you remove the context, everything has no context. And I'd like to know from you maybe, like, why you think people do that. Why do they remove all context when speaking about Israel, Palestine?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I've been trying to process why I wasn't so insulted. I think it's a couple things. I think, like, I love all of those awards and accolades, but they're not really me. So, okay, you take them away. It's fine. You know what I mean? I'm still me. I think also, I have been in this, in terms of the research and the writing, you know, from, you know, over a year now. And I guess again, and I know I keep saying this, how much. The extent to which Palestinians have been pushed out of the frame, understanding how much of this was a third rail. I really, like. I knew this was coming.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Even the, like, you know, right to exist. Like, I knew, like, the state's rights to exist. Like, it was like you've been, you know, like, shadow boxing and waiting for a fight, and you see somebody throw the left that you've seen your sparring partner throw like, a thousand times by then. And I figured at some point it was gonna be a fight. You know, I didn't know it was gonna be right then, but I figured at some point it was gonna be a fight. I wanna say something that actually is really important. The thing that went wrong in that interview, more than anything, as far as I'm concerned, is Gayle King is a great journalist and a great interviewer. And Gayle came behind the stage before we went, and she had gone through the book. And I'm not saying she, like, agreed with the book. She was like, I want to ask you about this. I want to ask you about that. I want you.

[Trevor Noah]

It was like, Gayle is considered.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Oh, my God.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't think Gayle King is. It's considered.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Listen.

[Trevor Noah]

But she didn't speak.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It was her handwritten notes. Her handwritten notes with it. You know what I mean? She had all these things. And I think while on the one hand, he probably did me a service, you know what I mean, by just kind of commandeering that interview. I don't think he did Nate and Gayle a service. And I'm really, really sorry for them more than anything. I can take care of myself, you know, I'm good. I'm good. Like I said, I've been hearing these arguments. I've been rehearsing. I've been so, you know, if this is what you want to do, I'm okay doing it. Like, I'm good. I was okay. I left, shook his hand. I'm okay. Don't cry for me. I'm sure you know that interview will sell a lot of books. Because the fact of the matter is that reaction is actually endemic of what I'm actually writing about.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it is.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

There is no way in the world you can imagine a journalist who took the other side of that coming on here and Somebody saying, if we took away the COVID if we took away the awards we took. I feel like I would find this in the backpack of a settler colonialist. Yeah, you can't even imagine that.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah. That framing just wouldn't exist.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It doesn't exist. It's like 10 steps that need to happen before, and they aren't there. They aren't even there. You know what I mean? And so I think, to your point. Sorry, I'm taking a long time to answer your question.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. This is why we're here. This is a long time. There's no 20 seconds here, by the way. That's the whole point of a podcast. We don't have 20 seconds.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

But to your point, removing the context, I think is actually essential. You know what I mean? Because if you start asking why, then you really, really start to get into trouble. I mean, one of the things I've really tried to maintain, both personally and in my public presentation is obviously my great horror at. Maybe not obviously, but my great horror at October 7th. The fact that I don't say that perfunctorily, but I say it because at the core of my politics is human life. And human life really, really matters to me. And thus, by that same token, if human life matters on October 7, it should have mattered on October 6 and October 5, too. And understanding that it didn't, when I went over to travel to the west bank and to Israel, and I was up and down the country, I went to Jesus from Haifa, Jerusalem, South Hebron Hills, Hebron itself, Lydd, Tel Aviv. What they told me was Gaza's worst. I know you've seen some stuff and you tell you Gaza, and this is obviously before October, they said Gaza is worse.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And I was trying to get there, but there's all sorts of things in terms of press access that I couldn't. And so I just think, like, is there room in the world? And I don't think there is right now. I actually don't think there is. To have genuine, genuine horror at what happened on October 7, to feel like there really isn't a world in which or reason that I can apprehend. I'm not Palestinian, I'm Ta Nehisi Coates. That I can apprehend for justifying anything like that and yet understanding at the same time that things have histories, that they happen in the course of events. The example I think about all the time is like, Nat Turner, right? Like, Nat Turner launches his rebellion in 1830. This man slaughters babies in their cribs. You know what I mean? Like, and I've like, done this thought experience, this experiment for myself over and over. Does the degradation and dehumanization of slavery make it so that you can look past something like that? And I try to imagine, and I think I can accurately imagine as much as possible, that there were enslaved people, no matter how dehumanized. That said, this is too far. I can't do that. Now, here's the flip side of it, and I haven't said this out loud, but I think about it a lot. Were I 20 years old, born into Gaza, which is a giant open air jail. And what I mean by that is if my father is a fisherman and he goes too far out into the sea, he might get shot by somebody off of the side of Israeli boats. If my mother picks the olive trees and she gets too close to the wall, she might be shot. If my little sister has cancer and she needs treatment because there are no facilities to do that in Gaza and I don't get the right permits, she might die. And I grow up under that oppression and that poverty and the wall comes down. Am I also strong enough or even constructed in such a way where I say this is too far? I don't know that I am. You know, I don't know that I am, you know, And I just. I just wish we had room to work through that. You know what I mean? And to think about that and to talk about that. And I think that is not unique to Israel. That is not unique to Palestine. That is not unique to Zionism. That is human history. That's human beings. I always tell people, you know, like, they think if they lived in the time of slavery, that they would not have been enslavers. And I always tell. You would have.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you would have.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Cause it's a system.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And most human beings, you know, we exist within. Yeah, we exist within context.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, we do.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Within context. And without that, you know what I mean? This idea that can be some triumphant, heroic individual who's gonna go above and beyond that just. That's not a real thing. That's not history.

[Trevor Noah]

We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Travel is all about learning and experiencing things in a new, exciting way. But you could get even more from your travels with the Chase Sapphire Reserve Card. You can earn three times the points on travel purchases and receive a $300 travel credit. It also comes with plenty of other perks too, like access to Sapphire's Airport Lounge Network. You can relax and refresh with locally inspired menus, a curated selection of drinks and more before getting on your flights. Make the most out of your next trip. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by SurveyMonkey. The world is always changing and totally unpredictable, which is fun unless you're trying to run a business. So if you want to build a product people actually love, keep your customers happy and stop your team from setting their status to emotionally unavailable, well, you've got to understand what people are really thinking. And to do that, you need to dare to ask the questions that really matter. Luckily, SurveyMonkey makes it super easy to ask the right questions that will drive your business forward. In fact, SurveyMonkey answers 20 million questions every single day for over 300,000 organizations around the globe. Get answers to your questions go to surveymonkey.com/dare I think about, you know, sometimes the best way for me to process a story that's happening now is to take a story that isn't happening now because I have a little room, I have a little context. But I remember having a conversation with President Obama when he was still in office, you know, and we were talking about this like it was in an interview, and we're chatting and I've asked state officials the same question. As I say, I'm always intrigued by the notion of like a strike, as they call it, and the collateral damage. And I always go, do you ever wonder what collateral damage causes? And I'm not saying to justify, but do you ever wonder what it causes? So one of the stories that always stuck out to me was there was a strike that was conducted and they were getting, I think it was one of the heads of isis. He was in the back of a taxi and if you remember, and they shot down a missile, got the taxi, he was dead. And they were all happy about it. And I remember we had the Daily show talking about this and I said, wait, where did they kill? They said, yeah, we got him. Clean strike gone. I said, what about the taxi driver?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah, man.

[Trevor Noah]

And they were like, oh yeah? Well, the taxi's gone. I said, well, what about the taxi driver? And they were like, this is an ISIS terrorist. I said, okay, maybe it's because I come from a quote unquote, third world country. Being a taxi driver, even in America, by the way, even in a first world, is like, those people are responsible for so many lives. Being a Taxi driver is not a passion job. It's not a career that you aspire to. It's like, this is what I'm doing to make ends meet. And I go, when you've taken out a taxi driver, how many lives have you taken out around him? And I know you're celebrating that you've killed this person, but who might you have radicalized?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Who might you have? You know, and it's. It's. It's.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I. That's.

[Trevor Noah]

That's. I think one of the reasons I love your writing so much is because it challenges us to continuously approach the most difficult topics with the nuance that anger and violence oftentimes don't get. You know, and to go back, funny enough to that first question you were asked on cbs. I hadn't read the book right when that. When that happened, but I was now ready for this chapter. I was like, man, you know, I read through the book and I'm like, okay. And I'm reading about you loving American football in the beginning. I'm like, oh, this is sweet. But in the back of my mind now, it's like, you know when you've watched a movie trailer and they've only shown you one part and you're like, I mean, I know it starts out right, but the explosion comes, and I'm reading these sweet stories and I'm picturing you crying because of a football player who's, like, lost. It's paraplegic. And you're crying and you're having this journey, and I'm reading about you in Baltimore and your father and you learning about reading and loving and writing and talking to your students. But in the back of my head, I'm going, get ready, Trevor.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right?

[Trevor Noah]

There's a chapter in this book that is going to make you think about Ta Nehisi differently. I'm like, what is this extremist thing and what nobody mentions in that interview? You spend the first, I want to say, like, 10ish pages speaking about the Jewish history. You spend the first 10 pages talking about the Holocaust. You spend the first pages talking about going through the memorial. You talk about the names, a book of names that shows you all the millions of people who died in the Holocaust. You talk about the most painful stories. You know, those. Those soldiers killing 2,000 Jewish people, not because the war was still happening, but because they just didn't want them to be free and they knew the Russians were approaching and they were gonna free them. And I didn't know some of these, like, individual moments and I was like, damn, this is hard. Damn, this is painful. But all I kept thinking was, like, wait, wait, wait. This is not in the backpack of an extreme. This is like.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It's probably not.

[Trevor Noah]

No. But that's what I mean is, like, you. And maybe. Maybe this is. You know, it's a long way of me getting to the question, and that is like, why would you start telling the story of the Palestinian people? That chapter? Why would you start that story with the history of the Jewish people?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It's actually not about the Palestinian people, and I have to be pretty open about that. It takes a particular perspective, definitely. But if you notice, there's symmetry, although it's not deliberately called out, between that Senegal chapter and the Israel chapter.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, I felt that.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah. And it's because in Dakar, I'm confronting stories, imagined ideas that play a role in the politics, and then having to deal with Africa as an actual place.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know what I mean? With people.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

People who don't celebrate Kwanzaa. You know what I mean, bro? Like, having the deal tag, you know? And, you know, frankly, I still haven't quite figured it all out yet. But the mess of that and then, you know, like, working through that. Right. You know, man, it is something to have an African name that nobody in Africa has. That's what I have. Oh, wow. I have an African name that nobody in Africa has. Right. And so you're kind of, like, working through that, and I actually think that's okay. You know, I actually think that's fine, but, like, trying to work through that. And then here I am in this place where some of the, I would say, nationalist impulse that I grew up around and grew up under has been taken to, like, the nth degree. Like, it's actually been operationalized. You know, it's not, you know, just people without power trying to, you know, create stories and trying to preserve themselves and trying to arm themselves against an oppression. It has become an actual state. And I knew I was gonna write about that. But, you see, this doesn't work. If you can't see yourself in Israel and in Zionism, if you think it is just evil people over here doing an evil thing, then you've missed it. You know what I mean? You've missed it. This started somewhere. You know what I mean? It started somewhere. And I have to be honest, and I said this in the piece, once I started reading the documents around Zionism, it was like, on one level, I was like, oh, this is so clearly colonialism. Like, I recognize a colonialist discourse. Well, first of all, they use the word colonized. But also, you know, depicting the people over there in a certain way, either as they don't exist or they're savage, one or the other. But the other part was I recognized the yearning. Like, I recognize, you know, Moses has. Talking about being a member of a degraded people at one place. He says, you know, you're. Your nose and your hair won't be made to disappear. You can't pretend you're German. He's saying this before the Holocaust. You know what I mean? You can't hide your Jewishness. You should be proud of it. And all I can hear is, like, Malcolm X, right?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

So I'm, like, recognizing it. Like, I can feel the parallels. The parallels, yeah. And the fraternity for it and the sympathy. Like, I understand it. But then you see where it goes, right? You see where it goes and how a people who have been just repeatedly degraded over centuries, massacred, killed, chased, ethnically cleansed themselves out of Spain, you know, can go somewhere and perpetrate and create a system of just dire inhumanity. Dire, inhuman. I say this, haven't seen it, you know, against other people. That was a challenge for me as a black person, actually. You know what I mean? Like, as much as I was, like, concerned about Zionism and what it did, because I started thinking, and this is imaginative and speculative, but this is, I think, what writers are supposed to do. What would we be if we had power? Like, what would we do? You know? And then there's this discourse around Liberia where African Americans had this whole thing about, oh, we're gonna go back to Africa and we're gonna civilize our brethren, right? Yeah, we're gonna Christianize and civilize them. And you see, my God, like, we could be seduced into the same thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know, and that's why I'm very strong on this point. This is not a Jewish era. It's not a Zionist era. You know what I mean? This is a human. A deeply, deeply human temptation that is wrong, but human nonetheless.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I find in the book. What I found was interesting. I feel you implicate yourself. You talk about. I see American imperialism. I see, you know, evangelical Christianity. And as a bearer of an American passport who can go through certain checkpoints, that other part I am enmeshed with that whether I like it or not. So you're, like, calling yourself out as an American in a way that I don't think people are necessarily acknowledging. You're not saying this is the big bad Israel. You're saying this is us.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It's actually us. And that's the key difference. Because people will tell you, they say, well, what about, you know, Sudan? What about China? What about, you know, they'll name all the places where horrible things are happening. What about Saudi Arabia? And they're not wrong. You know, they're not wrong, but this is our horrible thing. That is the key. That is actually the key difference. You know, every single fighter plane that drops a bomb on Gaza came from America. Every single one. Every single one. You know, I got that from. There's a report by this guy, Josh Paul, and this great Palestinian American law professor Noura Etiquette, that they wrote together. Josh Paul used to be in the State Department and he worked in the area that oversaw the sale of weapons to other countries until he was just like, I can't do this anymore. And he sent me a couple weeks ago the report that he and Noura had done, just outlining the human rights violations that had come over the past year or so. And I saw that line about. And this was after. And I was like, my God, this is really all us. You know what I mean? You just get more and more evidence and I'll tell you even more so because we walk around the world, we go around the world. Maybe not walk, we go around the world saying, we are the font of democracy. We advanced ourselves through the fight against enslavement. We advanced ourselves through the fight against segregation. We advanced ourselves. You know what I mean? Martin Luther King is our patron saint. But we are supporting segregation right now. Right now. That's the one thing about that CBS interview, right? Like when I say segregation apart, not once did somebody say, that's not true.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. He kept on saying, and why is that?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right, right, right. Not, that's not true.

[Trevor Noah]

He said, and why is that happening? Why is that?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Which every single perpetrator of segregation in Jim Crow says, I'm so excited about apartheid.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, no, they said there are all.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Sorts of good reasons to do it. For me.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, for me that's the parallel is like, you know, I've had this conversation sometimes, argument with some of my friends, you know, some Israeli born, some just of Jewish descent. And we'll talk about this. And you know, one thing I wish people knew more of is how broad the spectrum is. For instance, just to what you said. Now we had on, you know, one of the other podcast episodes, we had the author of Sapiens and Nexus Yuval Noah Harari on. And he's like, he said, I'm a Zionist. And he Said, but this is what my definition of Zionism is. It is me believing that Jewish people have a right to exist in a state where they do not have to run away because of their nose and their hair. And I'm paraphrasing that part, but essentially that's what he said. And then he went on to say, israel's committing crimes in Gaza. And he said, the west bank is even more indefensible because there's not even a boogeyman Hamas to blame it on. And he said that students should be protesting against the US because in your words, funny enough, he said, it is America's participation in that specific thing. And when I think about apartheid, like, I'll talk to my friends and I'll be honest. I think this is what it is, you know? And I think we're all guilty of it at different times. None of us wishes to be labeled something that we can never get out from under. Right? Nobody wants to be called a racist because this is now a stain that they wear forever, and there's no coming out from under it, you know? And so if that's why people are so. In my opinion, people are so afraid of saying, oh, yeah, that was racist. What I said was racist, what I did. Because they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I know where this goes. No. And I've noticed the same thing. And during apartheid, the architects of apartheid were like, no, no, no, this is not. No, no, no, I'm not racist. They're like, no, we do this for the Bantu. And they said that you must understand the black cannot govern themselves. The black does not have the capability to understand governance. And we are protecting them and we must keep. And then when I talk to my friends in and around Israel, Palestine, I would say to them, they go like, oh, how can you call it. How can anyone call it apartheid? And then I'll say, okay, let's do it this way. You tell me what's different. I'm just gonna tell you what apartheid was.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right? Right, Right.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm just gonna tell you what it was, and I would like you to tell me where you see a discrepancy.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right?

[Trevor Noah]

And I go, okay, so in apartheid, your ethnicity determined what your life could be, where you could go, what job you could get, how long you could stay in the major part of the town where the power was held, you know, where you could move or not move. That's what apartheid did. Then they're like, okay, it's like that, but. And I'm like, no, don't give me reasons. Let's forget reasons for a moment. Let's just talk about what it was and what it wasn't. And I go, apartheid also said that you couldn't vote depending on your ethnicity or. Yes, but. And I go, you're my friend. I'm not indicting you. I just want you to tell me how it's different to apartheid.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And oftentimes it's ended at, yes, there's many similarities, but it's because.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It's because.

[Trevor Noah]

And I go, I have yet to find a thing that happened in our past that didn't have a because.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It's always like that. And what I don't think folks realize is that's actually a further indictment. That's actually because you sound like the thing. You think you're not.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And you don't know the history of the thing. You think you're not well enough to realize how much you actually sound like it. You know? And so when you say, for instance, the Palestinians have done this, that suicide bombings, terrorist attacks, et cetera, that's real. That's real. And nobody would deny the pain of that. The problem is the violence of the oppressed. That's always the reason. That's always the reason. And so I was on a podcast with somebody else, and we were discussing this, and it's like, I just gave you that Nat Turner example, right? And I say, well, I think killing babies in the crib is wrong. Like, I don't think I could do that. Right. But that doesn't justify slavery.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You see what I'm saying?

[Trevor Noah]

That doesn't make.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

That doesn't mean they. You know what I mean? That's where the loop.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, because.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know what I mean? That therefore justifies. No, no, no, no, no, no. And I think, like, this is, like, a principle thing that cannot be gotten past. Either you think there are good reasons for segregation, apartheid, Jim Crow, or you don't. You know what I mean? And in my mind, there is never any reason, you know, like, my dream of liberation is not, like, enslaving white people. That would be wrong. Like, I oppose enslavement. You know, I use the death penalty example all the time. I am opposed to the death penalty. There is no because for me. For the death. There is no, you know, he's a serial killer, killed 30 people. No, I'm against it. I'm against it for Dylann Roof. Like, I'm against it. There's no because for me. You know, And I think we all have those things. It's just the fact. The bare truth of it is some of us do not have those things for apartheid. That's just the truth. Some people think. And that is scary for me as a black person, because now I know who I'm talking to. Because you would do that to me if there was a.

[Trevor Noah]

Because, you know, we can't imagine ourselves that way, or we can't imagine ourselves doing the worst, or, you know, it's interesting that we understand it fundamentally as humans, but then when it comes to practicing it, our fear takes over. Do you know what I mean? Like, I remember getting into a passionate argument with a friend of mine around Israel, Palestine, and he was like, but, Trevor, what do you want us to do? And you know that Hamas is trying to kill us, and we think these other countries around us want to kill us. Like, what do you want us to do? And I was like, well, I want you to not kill babies. I want you to not kill children. And he was like, no, but we don't want to. And you got to understand where Israel is coming. And I was like, yeah, no, no, I'm not saying that. And then I said to him something that I truly believe, but I don't know again, because I haven't been fully tested. I don't know that I would be able to exercise it. And maybe even we are. I said, you know what it is? It's the burden of the good guy. When you watch a movie, you watch a James Bond movie, right? For all these flaws, you watch James Bond. James Bond is pursuing one of the villains. They've got, like, a vial that's going to kill the whole world, some virus. The bad guy gets to drive through a crowded market, crashing everyone who's in it and not give a damn. James Bond has to stop. Has to go around people. If a woman is thrown, he has to catch her. If a child falls, he has to stop here. Superman. Oh, man, I wanna go after Zod, but the building is falling. So I have to stop the building from falling, because while I'm trying to beat Zod, the building is full of people. And my mission is to save people. And so I cannot let the people die. In my fight with Zodiac just because I'm trying to get Zod and I. Do. You know what I mean? I keep going. I'm like, man, we understand it on a hypothetical moral level when we watch it, but when we're tested, very few of us pass that test to get beyond our fear.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

The other thing is, like, the Building is filled with people who are not you. You know what I mean? So then it's like, how can you have empathy beyond. Beyond yourself? Which I just think. I don't know, man. Like, one of the things that I was. I thought a lot about there was the Israelis I spoke to. They spoke in terms of survival. Right. Which is actually. And that's why I started with Yad Vashem, which is. I mean, when you have faced, you know, real existential violence, you know, you might would start to think of things in those sorts of terms. But equally interesting was, like, the story they told about that survival. Not all of them, but one of the more popular versions of it, which holds that they went like lambs to the slaughter. Like, that there was no real resistance. And so it's a kind of like, not just, I won't let genocide happen again, but next time I'm gonna go out fighting. I don't think that story is particularly accurate. I don't think that version of it that just. It doesn't correspond with how oppressed people act under systems ever, you know, any human being, you know, ever. But I think also beyond that, it's like, what is life for? You know, like, what is living for? What is. What is, like, what you're trying to survive for. What. You know, and if. And like, you say you haven't been tested. So I don't. Like. I agree. I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I don't know if my life depends on daily killing babies. I mean, I might jump off a building myself because I don't know what my life is. Then, like, I don't know that I have a life worth living myself. Like, when I think about that, when I try to do that thought experiment, like, I feel like I've, like, somehow lost. Like, is it just oxygen?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No. But in the book, I think you answer it when you talk about the parallels between the dehumanization of black people and the dehumanizations of Arab and brown people.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

When you no longer see the humanity in these people, I think you can do anything. Right.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right. But what about, like, your own humanity?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah. Well, you're losing your own humanity by the act, which is, I think, the sadness in all of it.

[Trevor Noah]

I think there's a lot I would challenge that. Funny enough, I actually think it's the first part, and it's what you said. I don't think many of the people are forced to. They're not challenging. We are not challenging our humanity because we've Made it numbers because we've made it statistics. And you talk about this in the book. Go read. If you go read, like, the articles. And I think I'm really happy that Gen Z has been as on this as they have on, like, Tikt on Twitter, on all of it. You now see with a real clear lens how the media tells the stories about what's happening in the Middle East. They will say, you know, a family killed in Tel Aviv, you know, a group, they'll make it human. And on the other side they'll go, 60 Palestinians. But Palestinians is not a thing. They're not humans. Do you know what I mean? A Palestinian is not a. Like, when you think of it, if you take that word, you should remove it and just write, humans, children, humans, children. I don't think anyone to borrow your words from the book, would be able to grapple with that constant toll and pain because we'd be like, whoa, how many humans and how many children and how many people? And I think that's actually what it is. Throughout history, even if we zoom out from the conflict in the Middle east, what we've been very good at doing as a species, through a few people who have assumed power, is they've managed to dehumanize the people that it's happening to so that we don't have to question our humanity. So when the US Drones a part of the Middle east where it's a wedding or no, no, it's collateral damage, insurgents, we got the. But collateral damage is not people.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You get what I'm saying?

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. And that. And that, I think, is actually it. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this. This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. No matter how you celebrate the holidays, there is one thing I think we can all share in the magic of Starbucks holiday beverages. Whether it's a Starbucks peppermint mocha, an iced sugar cookie almond milk latte, or the new Cranmerry orange refresher, Whatever festive flavor you choose, Starbucks is here to make every moment special this holiday season. For me, it's as if every sip of Starbucks is a small, magical escape. There's nothing like sharing a moment of joy with my friends and family over Starbucks. So go on, feel the magic. Order your favorite holiday beverage on the Starbucks app today. This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom Rack. Just in and so good. Thousands of new winter deals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save up to 60% on Sam Edelman, Sorel, Free People, Cole Haan, and more. Cold Weather finds great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's interesting because when you go to South Carolina, you go to this kind of school board meeting in where people are defending this teacher called Mary. They're trying to ban your book, basically. And it's interesting to me that you'll say, how can they do that to me as a black person? Whereas a really prolific black author. There is this movement to ensure that children don't read your book because they don't want the widening of their imagination, their aperture. So how did it feel actually living through that? Because it felt that like you were more burdened by what you saw in Israel and Palestine, but you were more personally impacted by what was actually happening in South Carolina. Kind of like in your backyard.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. Why was I not more burdened by South Carolina? It probably is the fact that this is less of a threat to me than it is to the students and the parents. And like, I didn't really feel like between the world and me, it's gonna be fine, you know, So I probably felt it less personally. Maybe some of it also was the fact that it was like, I gotta tell you, this was a little weird, right? Because it was really white self interest that I was observing. And I mean that actually in the best way, right?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Because look, like all people, you know what I mean, these white parents down here, they want their kids to have a first class education. They want them to be able to go out in the world. They don't want people mocking them and laughing at them. And you know, and to them it's like book banning. Like, I'm gonna have to send my kid out into the world. And like, I come from a district where they ban books. Like, they, you know, obviously have enough sense to realize that is not how you raise a worldly kid with, you know, expectations. Like, these were kids in an AP English class, right? So they're trying to get credit to get ahead in the university, you know, and it's like this is like barbaric, you know what I mean, what we're talking about here? And so when I say self interest, I mean they might even have my politics, but they recognize that part of a first rate education is reading different things, taking things from different. Like it was kind of that recognition of that value. It's not. We completely and totally agree with Ta Nehisi Coates, you know what I mean? It's just we want our kids to have a relatively high level education, you know, and you Know, as I say in the book, I mean, you can mock that, you can laugh at that, but there are not too many freedom struggles that have been advanced without, you know, some group of people from the majority seeing their interest, you know, there too. So I was fine with it. I want to say something really quickly and I have to remind myself to say this all the time as I talk about this. I was talking before about my sympathy, like, how I was reading the documents and everything, and I felt, you know, like, the similarity in reference to that. I get how hard it might be if you are Jewish and you're trying to reckon with this stuff. You know what I mean? That was the other reason why it was kind of written the way it was.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Because, man, you know, and I have some exposure to this in other ways, but I won't make this about me. I can imagine it is great. It is really, really difficult to be within a system. I saw it with my own eyes, actually. Within a system that tells you you're noble, that tells you what you're doing is correct, that tells you you are within the tradition of people who have been correct within a movement, that is correct. And somebody is telling you no, you're actually sticking your foot on people's throat. That's hard to take.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be said, by the way. It should be said.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, I hear you.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah. But to deconstruct the core of your identity in that way, because when you do it, what's left?

[Trevor Noah]

Well, there are two stories, one lesser story. But I don't know if you remember when World Central Kitchen, Jose Andres, you know, I mean, he does an amazing job. He's all over the world, and he just feeds people. And it seems like such a simple mission, but what he does with his organization is there's a devastation anywhere in the world from natural disaster, from war, you name it, he gets in there. And he gets in there faster than most, like, giant organizations, and he just feeds people. From Haiti to Florida, from Gaza to Syria, he gets in there and he feeds people. And one of the more tragic stories that came out of the Israel Palestine conflict was, I think it was seven of the World Central Kitchen people being killed in a strike. And, you know, there's been all these reports. And then, like, the Israel government said, oh, it was like rogue, sort of like some soldiers in the ranks who weren't supposed to be doing something. They went against orders. And it's muddled. So I won't put my Foot anywhere in particular, because I keep reading new things about it. But what was most interesting for me was seeing that he got interviewed afterwards by. He got Haaretz in Israel. They did almost full page spread on him, like an interview. And then he was on, I think it's Channel 12 in Israel. And I saw multiple people online when that was happening, saying. And it seemed completely honest to me, they said, this is the first time I have seen a story saying anything about what's happening in Gaza from inside Israel.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I saw multiple people saying that. Multiple people saying, I wasn't hearing this, I wasn't seeing this, I wasn't. And in a way, I think of what you talk about in your book, when you talk about the importance of being a storyteller, the responsibility that writers bear, the obligation that you have when you're putting words on a page. Because I think about how powerful it is to be able to craft a story or a narrative for people. One of the key things I hear from many white South Africans, some could be lying, but I think genuinely when I talk to them, many of them aren't. They'll tell me straight up, they go, trevor, I didn't know. And I'm like, what do you mean you didn't know? And they go like, trevor, they go, nobody knew what was happening. And I'm like, how could you not know what was happening in apartheid? And they say, remember we had the national broadcaster. They broadcast what we watch. We weren't getting international stuff. It was banned. You weren't getting music from America that was anything like Sugar man and all these songs that question, no, we weren't getting anything. So our reality was shaped by the government. And if your reality is shaped, you almost have to be like Neo to escape.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You really gotta do something.

[Trevor Noah]

Cause I always think about that on that level. I go, forget who's a good person, who's a bad person. Think about what kind of person you have to be to say, everything in my reality makes sense, but I'm gonna question it.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean? And I think about how many Israelis don't get, like, the story on all sides. I think about how many South Africans didn't get the story of apartheid. They were just told. Yeah, they were even told that black people loved living there, by the way. They were like, no, this is great. They're loving it. They love how they live. And then they would show, look at the violence. Or the ANC is trying to disrupt this thing. They're trying to blow everything up. We've created a working system. Everyone is happy. And maybe, you know, it's a question I have to. You then, as a writer is like, how do you. How do you escape that? How do you even begin the journey of puncturing your reality? Do you know what I mean? You know, I think it's important everyone who listens to this understands that the book as a whole, it's not. If you think it's Israel, Palestine, it's not. That's the most contentious issue right now. But the part of the book where you're going into Senegal for me is like you having to puncture a reality. You having to now see Africans as human beings who don't just exist as numbers. It's not just the beginning of a slave trade. Oh, it's people.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right? It actually started back when I was in college because when I went to Howard, I was in a History department where they were very scholarly. And it was like all of this stuff about, like, they. They came and kidnapped us, and we were kings. They had no tolerance for any of that. And it was extremely disruptive of my concept of what Africa was and what it meant for me. And I finally, you know, went over myself, and I think, you know what's interesting? So I think by then I had let go of a lot of stuff, right? And I say that I'm still in process, because even as I was walking down the street, I really do think the film was still over my eyes. And I'll give you an example. I would just, like, repeatedly remark on the beauty of the Senegalese people, right?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

They're very beautiful. We have to say that.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Okay, But I have a question about that. Yeah, I have a question about that.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, go. Let's do it.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Is it that now they are.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

They are.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

But is it that? Or is it also the fact, and I'm speaking as an African American maybe here, that you grow up under all of this stuff, telling you you're ugly, you're unattractive, your nose is too big, your lips are too big, your hair is like, all that. And then you go and you're like.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

These are stunning people.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

These are stunning people. And you see them, and they're the coolest people in the world, too. Like, they're smooth and, you know what I mean, their style. And it's like, what? You know what I mean? And so. But I am trying to, I guess, comprehend how much of that is me looking at them through this, you know what I mean? Trying to escape what I've been told here and how much of that is the reality of it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You mentioned the ideology niggerology, which I couldn't. I couldn't get over that even existing. I know it existed in an abstract, but this real way of thinking.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And you were like, have I been somehow tainted by that? That I'm surprised by the humanity?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Oh, that was the worst part of that. Was the worst part.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Just the way they live. And then.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

No, it was. That was so, I think, like. Yes. You know what I mean? I obviously did bring it with me. Like, that's just the truth of it. And the fact of the matter is, all of the work I had done to escape it. You know what I mean? I don't know if you ever get out of it. The second thing was, like, I read all of this scholarship about how the door no return is bullshit. It's not real. Not that many people went through Gore ain't this and Gore ain't that. And I'm gonna tell you, when that boat pulled off, I lost it. Even knowing? Even knowing. Yes, Even knowing. This is bs. Like, empirically, this is not what they said it was. You know what I mean? And so what does it mean? That even after, you know, you deconstruct all of this stuff that is myth and is not real, like, some of this stuff still has a hold on you? I mean, I would. There'd be, you know, evenings when I would sit with two of the people I talk about in the book. I'm gonna do it and Hanada. And it's like we have this whole conversation about who's mixed and who's not and all of that sort of thing. Right. But see, the fact of the matter is, while some people might find that conversation hurtful, we had to have some kinship to even joke like that.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Like, you don't just say that to people. You know what I mean? Like, you gotta have. Like, there has to be something there.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You're still kidding, right?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right?

[Trevor Noah]

You have to.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You have to.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Like cousins ribbing each other.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes, exactly. It's like cousins ribbing each other. But why are we cousins again? Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But it was like when they.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I mean, we are. I feel like we're not.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I feel you.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know what I mean? But what.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

When you mentioned how, like, kind of grieved you were by them saying, you know, the women out here, they bleach and they change their hair.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Oh, boy, that hurt.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Because they want to look like African Americans. It seemed like that really sat with you. You were like, okay, now what has happened here that it was so meta. That you couldn't really.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Because this is at the same time as I'm doing. You're so beautiful. Like, I'm doing that.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Why would you want to look like us? Like, why would you? And then, you know, the other thing is. And I don't know if this is where you're going. I might have cut you off.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, no, go for it.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

But we look the way we look because rape is an indelible part of the experience of enslavement. You know what I mean? Like, it's not a gift.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah. Systemic sexual assault.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right, right. That's why, you know, it is the way it is. And so. And it's actually a marker, you know, in that way of our division. You know what I mean? In the way that we were kind of very much like as Nikole Hannah Jones is, you know, like, born on the water. Like, that was like, you know, what we were there was stripped away, taken, and then something out of what was left of that. And, you know, what? We got here forcibly, you know, became who we are, you know? And, I mean, that's probably even tied to the why are we cousins? Thing. You know what I mean? Because it's like, what are we? Like what? Like, what are we?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It did feel like in Dakar, that you experienced some sort of psychic shift. And I don't wanna make it tropey. Cause that's the whole thing.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

No, no.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Like the African American either. Abroad in France.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Trevor Noah]

Writing a book.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right. Which I've done.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, which you've done. I've done in the James.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I wrote some of this book in.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

France in the James Baldwin tradition.

[Trevor Noah]

Right, right, right.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Or it's like going to someplace in West Africa and feeling something. And you do mention the ancestors a lot, which I. Which means we're cousins because, you know, we measure ancestors. But you're like, you know, part of. I'm paraphrasing, but part of your writing and the tradition you're in is like, veneration of the ancestry that they're speaking to you and through you.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes, yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But it felt like, with the Israel, Palestine thing, it felt that you had come to a personal conclusion based on your morality, on your feeling about the human experience. But you come out of Senegal kind of still grappling.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah, no, that.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And I wonder why. Why is that? Did it not feel like home enough? Or did it feel like home? Like, what was that Confusion? And there was. There was an underlying tension there that I didn't feel anywhere else in the.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Book, I think it's the what are we? I think I never figured out the what are we? I know what the feeling is, but I can't. I couldn't. I never.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

What are we to each other?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Or just what are we to each other?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I feel like we're kin.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah. And I felt like I felt that, but I couldn't put it into words. Like, I couldn't quite name it, you know, And I guess that's understandable. That was my first trip there. Again, a lot of that was about, you know, grieving and being, you know, African American. And, like, I think about. Like, I spend so much time by the water, and I think about, like, watching. And I talk about this in the book, like, these little black boys surf. I don't think I've ever in my life seen black boys surf.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Until I went to Senegal. And they were doing it like it was the most natural thing in the world.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, they were like, what do you mean? Cause it is.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Cause it is. Cause it is. You know what I mean? And it really struck me, and it's really, really kind of, you know, beautiful way. And I think it probably will take a few more trips.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Until I'm, like, not amazed by that. You know what I mean? And then I can figure out, like, what that can is and what it means and everything.

[Trevor Noah]

It's funny, I think of just the differing experiences, you know. What you're sharing now reminds me of when Ryan Coogler, the director of Black Panther and Fruitvale. Amazing, amazing director. He was going to South Africa to do research for Black Panther, right?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Oh, he directed you. I. Just a good friend of mine. That's why I'm seeing you.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. So Ryan reaches out to me, says, hey, I'm going to South Africa. Can you help me? I was like, yeah, I'd love to. So I said, ryan, let me hook you up with my people.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

People?

[Trevor Noah]

Not tour guides. Not like. No, I just want you to be with people.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

That's what he said. He said he was in it.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And so Ryan goes to South Africa, and I'll never forget, one of my best friends was with him. And they're walking around in Soweto, and Ryan's walking around, and he has, like, a. My friend described it to me. He's like. He's like, hey, Trevor. He's like, ah, man. This guy. Hey, man. He's edgy, man.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

He's edgy.

[Trevor Noah]

He's like, this guy's edgy. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, ah, man, I don't. He's. Every time we turn a corner, it's like he expects something to happen.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

He's edgy, man.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

He's edgy.

[Trevor Noah]

And I was like, what do you mean? And then they tell me the most beautiful story, and Ryan told it to me, and so did my friend from a different perspective. But he says, they're walking around, they walk around, they walk around. And I don't know if this was day one or day two, but Ryan stops and his shoulders relax and he starts to cry a little bit. And my friend's like, yo, is everything okay? And Ryan goes, I've never felt this feeling before. I have never seen blackness expressed in its full range. You know, it's like, where black isn't defined by something or not something. Like no one looking at you because you are black of your sneakers or your T shirt, but not because. And you're not out. You're not in. You're not. You're not old. You know, it was a weird. It's a feeling that I can't imagine because I don't. I can't imagine because I was lucky enough to grow up in South Africa in that. In a Xhosa family in Soweto.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm like, okay. But when he described it was the most poetic thing, what a gift it is to be able to see yourself as everything and anything.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, and I think that's. That when I'm listening to you and even when you read it in the book, I feel you moving through, it's almost.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I want to question that a little bit, though.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And the reason why I want to question that is that's what I thought, and maybe it's still true. But when that sister told me about the bleaching and everything.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

So what is. Like, where.

[Trevor Noah]

So, okay, this is my theory. This is my theory. Oftentimes, we. We look to those who we think have, like, figured it out and have found. Like, we look to those who inspire us is the easiest way to put it. Right. I know this personally. Growing up in South Africa, many of us looked at African Americans and we were like, yo, that is it. I mean, I look at the struggle in South Africa, the Nelson Mandelas, the Winnie Mandelas, the, you know, the Oliver Tambos.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Why would you do that if you have the range of humanity in front of you?

[Trevor Noah]

No, because what you're seeing is a glimpse. What you're seeing is a moment. Does this make sense? I could be wrong. Cause I'm not a scholar in this, but I do think in some ways it's because while there is still a struggle, it's not the same struggle. And so it sort of feels freeing in a different way. And it makes me aspire to you in another way, you know? So, like, I remember, first few weeks, we were in New York. Me, Joe Opio, from Uganda, David, a friend of ours, also from Uganda, but South African. We were walking through the streets of New York. We're coming back from a soccer match. Cops pull us over. Mind you, I was the host of the Daily show at this point. They pulled us over. It was like, on 11th Avenue and maybe just into the teens now. Cop pulls us over. We're carrying our sports equipment. We dressed in our sports gear. Cop goes, hey, where are you guys coming from? And we're like, are we coming from a soccer game? And he's like, where you going? We're like, are we going home? We live uptown. He's like, you walking? We're like, yeah, we're walking. He's like, it's midnight. Like, yeah. I mean, the game ends at midnight. He's like, you guys were playing soccer now? We're like, yeah. He's like, do you mind if I search your bags? I'm like, no, go ahead. And he searches. And we're standing there, you know, like, against the car, and he's searching. And I can't explain this to you. We could not have been more relaxed.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Wow.

[Trevor Noah]

And this all happened, and then we were done, and we were like, all right, have a good night, Officer. And then we carried on, and, you know, Joe. And we carried. And now we carried on talking about the game. Joe's like, no, Trevor, you have to pass the ball in the middle. No, Trevor, the thing is. And then I paused us, I think, like, two blocks up, I paused us and I said, guys, guys, guys, do you realize what just happened there? And they were like, oh, yeah, we got stopped. And I was like, no, but because we haven't lived in this experience for that long that to us, we treated and felt differently about. Because to us, that wasn't our, like, police weren't our struggle in that way.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

So we were just like, oh, yeah, sometimes the cops need to search you. And we just keep it moving.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

That's why I say it's not a scholarly answer, but I sometimes feel like it's like you aspire to a thing that's fixed in another world, and it seems like an answer in another. And yours seems more layered and More complex and more difficult.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So I have a view on bleaching, and I would encourage everyone to read the work of Professor Yaba Blay, who's done really great work on, like, West African communities in the diaspora and in like, the black diaspora in bleaching, whether it's Jamaica, Nigeria, et cetera, et cetera. Colonialism did a number on us.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Like, colorism is so rife. Like, I grew up seeing women bleach, and it was just a very normal thing. You know, it wasn't until, like, I grew up and deconstructed and it was just like, I feel like the middle passage, it's very clear the tragedy and the trauma of that displacement. You know, you were taken to another country, whether it's in the Caribbean or in America. But the people that are still in Africa who stayed and my family who weren't taken, you don't necessarily do the unraveling of, like, what did colonialism and slavery do to us? And I think it warped our sense of what is beautiful, separate from African Americans and the media and stuff like that. Like, Farrah is seen as better. Right. And that is something that still hasn't changed. Do you know? I mean, I know women my age and young. I know Gen Z girls who bleach. Right.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Did you guys have. I mean, I'm so really ignorant. But for all of his, like, political impact in terms of Malcolm X, one of the things that came out of that was like, he, like, he made a lot of that shameful. Even though it still happens, you know, but like, that whole, like, looking at yourself, like there was a stigma then from that point on among black people about, like, nose jobs, changing your eyes, doing certain.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I think that there's a key psychic difference where I'm not going to speak for all. Yeah, of course, West Africans. But there's a perception, like, this is something I do as an act of social mobility. It's got nothing to do with, like, how I actually feel about myself. My Igbo ness, my Yoruba ness, my Lua, whatever tribe you are.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's something I do because I know in this world, especially in the country I'm in, if you are fairer skinned, you are treated better. And there's like, studies on it.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Like, it's yes, of course, no, yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And Trevor, I talk about it all the time. Like, all the faces of Africa, like Trevor Tyler, like, you know, like, why is it that we. The face of Africa that the west has bought into is mixed race. Because they're like that's what we want to see. Right. And Africans intuitively know that when you're, like, unambiguously black and darker skinned, there's a trick. You're not going to get perceived as African American, which is closer to power and opportunity in your mind. So in your country and status. So you're like, okay, I'm going to lighten my skin. And it doesn't. It's not. It's a very. Again, because race is constructed differently.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Right.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Your skin is not necessarily the basis of your racial or ethnic identity. Normally, it's your tribe, right? Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Fully tribe.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, it's your tribe.

[Trevor Noah]

Fully tribe.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Bleaching your skin doesn't impact your tribe. But I think if you're in an American context.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah, that's like, distance. You've moved away, and you have this legacy. You definitely have moved away from your tribe.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You have a legacy of passing. It's a whole.

[Trevor Noah]

Because your tribe is defined by color in the US and it isn't in Africa. Your tribe is always going to be your tribe.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Your tribe is always your tribe, no matter. There's not enough bleaching skin cream in the world that's going to stop me being Igbo. Right. So I think there is that difference. But there is a sadness there because I think that sometimes there can be an arrogance of, like, I'd say as an African raised in diaspora, oh, we were never enslaved, but we lost so much. We lost so much as well. And we often have the arrogance of, like, oh, we have our language. We have. But we lost a great deal. And I think one of the things we lost was seeing ourselves in the mirror and feeling we are beautiful just the way we are. Whereas out here, you guys had the Black power movement, and we're like, we're gonna reclaim the thing that you have said is not beautiful.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I wonder if, like, I'm still. Cause you asked that question about, you know, that essay being unfinished but not unfinished. No, no.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

There was a recipe. There was a processing. Yeah. Grappling.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I'm with you on it. Cause I feel emotionally, at least, it was, like, unfinished. Like, it wasn't unresolved. And I think what I hear you saying, like, when you hear it, when you say loss, that is something I obviously immediately relate to.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Mm.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And it's like, of course we had the music. You know what I mean? Like, of course we have that. You know, but that's a real thing. I mean, there's been this musical exchange back and forth. You know what I mean? That is, you know, even Happening now. But I guess, if I'm honest, what I left wondering about is, is the root of this kinship actually a shared sense of loss? You know what I mean? And if it is, is that actually enough? Is that kinship? You know what I mean? Like, is that okay? And when I was thinking about it and I was writing, I was like, I don't think that's enough. Because actually, in fact, the way I phrased it was all we have in common is the white man. Like, that was like my mind. Like, that's how I process that. But you're saying something different. Yeah, you're saying something different. You're not saying it's the feeling inside of you, you know, of having. Cause I'm saying we do have that. That sense of loss. I mean, that's why we go back. Yeah, that's why we go back. I mean, all of these people doing, you know, oh, my family's from here in Scotland, which is a very American thing. I'm from here in Ireland. And we're just like, you're. At a certain point, it just disappears. We just don't know, you know what I mean? It's been erased. And that feeling is a deep, deep wound, you know what I mean? That so many of us are chasing so much so that we would invent stuff.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's interesting because you mention a lot the Jewish experience and the Jewish Diaspora. It feels like, to me that they actually have bonding on this feeling of loss and in ways that many people have contentious feelings about. But it was like, whether you're a Moroccan Jew, an Iraqi Jew, Polish Jew, we're going to be under this umbrella.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I think loss can be. Has great kinetic energy.

[Trevor Noah]

When you talk about the tracing, it's funny, I think, of all your work, in many ways, is tracing, you know, and every beginning of a chapter and every story that you tell in the book has a feeling of like, go and see. Yeah, it really has a go and see ness.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

See for yourself.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, your book is getting banned. Go and see. You went to go and see. You know, your people come from Africa. You have this identity, and maybe you're connected, but go and see.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean? The people of Gaza are being bombed, and the people of Israel are fighting for their survival, and there's this conflict of ideas, but go and see. And it made me realize how important a writer is, how important a journalist is, how important a storyteller is, because oftentimes we can't go and see.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

That's right. Yeah, that's Right. That's right. And there are a lot of journalists and writers who won't go and see.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know, even though you know, they should. And this is like, again, you know, the book is written to my students, and this is, like, something I'm really trying to drill in them. You really have to touch the thing. Like, you got to touch it, you know, you got to feel it. You got to experience it, because the way it will occur for you will not be the way it'll occur for somebody else. You know what I mean? In its most specific. I think somebody with a different history, with different things, might have saw everything I saw in those 10 days, and they would have written something totally different. You know what I mean? And so I think seeing it for yourself, running it through your own filters, is crucial and key.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, I. I know we're gonna wrap up soon, but I was just thinking, this is my black podcast right now.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

This is like, I've been running around talking to people for, like, three days, and I have not. You know what I mean? I have not done this. I've needed to do this. We're fixing the diaspora walls right now.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

We got black, Brit, South African, African American.

[Trevor Noah]

That warms my heart. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It's beautiful.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you don't want. Think about.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I'm sending this to my French people. I'm telling you, I'm gonna send this, like. Like my black French people.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I call them the Wee Wee Blacks. I love them.

[Trevor Noah]

I love them. I love them too much. When I'm doing comedy out there. We black. Love it out there.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Love it.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Because even over there, I tell my wife, I don't want too many African American friends here. Like, there's a whole African American diaspora in Paris. I just.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You don't want to be around.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Well, a few of them is fine, but I don't want to, like, I got to, you know, see my people.

[Trevor Noah]

You want to break it up? No. You want to break it up? Yes.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I got to see some of that.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yes, exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

You got to break it up.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You got to break it up.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. Not at all. Hey, man, this is what it's for. And I'll end by saying this to you. I think if you remove the accolades, if you remove your awards, if you remove the publishing house, if you remove the smartness, if you remove everything we know about Ta Nehisi Coates, that book would fit in the backpack of somebody who truly sees other people as human beings first and foremost. And man, I wish we all thought like you. I think we're all guilty of stepping out of it. But thank you, man. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for going and seeing where we couldn't. And yeah, man, I hope we. I hope we get to. Maybe we'll do it in Paris next time.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah, I would love it. I would love it. Thank you for the discussion.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, man, thank you so much.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studio in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avagan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.