How To Be The Most Healed Guy with Neal Brennan [VIDEO]

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How To Be The Most Healed Guy with Neal Brennan"

Release Date: December 5, 2024

Introduction

In this compelling episode of "What Now? with Trevor Noah", host Trevor Noah engages in an in-depth conversation with renowned comedian and writer Neal Brennan. Brennan, known for co-creating "Chappelle's Show", delves into his personal journey towards healing, the complexities of comedy, and the impact of social media on modern discourse. The discussion is enriched by insights from guest Christiana Mbakwe, providing a multifaceted exploration of mental health, familial relationships, and societal changes.

---

Neal Brennan’s Background and Upbringing

Trevor Noah begins by highlighting Brennan's extensive experience in comedy, emphasizing his involvement across various levels—from club comedy to television. This sets the stage for Brennan to share anecdotes from his early life.

Neal Brennan [04:24]: "In Philadelphia. Outside Philadelphia."

Brennan recounts growing up in a large, chaotic family as the youngest of ten siblings, with six brothers and four sisters. This environment fostered a sense of competition and resilience.

Neal Brennan [04:49]: "Last of ten. Six boys, four girls. It was pretty chaotic and it's a lot of kids in a house."

He describes his early exposure to comedy through his father, who enjoyed humor, albeit often borrowed from icons like Frank Sinatra. This familial influence played a significant role in shaping Brennan's comedic voice.

Neal Brennan [06:14]: "My dad liked comedy. A lot of what he did was kind of stolen from Frank Sinatra."

---

Family Dynamics and Personal Struggles

The conversation shifts to Brennan's tumultuous relationship with his father, marked by instability and eventual estrangement after his father's passing. Brennan opens up about the emotional impact of his father's will, which excluded him, intensifying his feelings of anger and abandonment.

Neal Brennan [14:35]: "My dad, we never really got along, and then he died and left money in his will to everyone but me. So it was just painful."

Brennan discusses how creating his Netflix special "Three Mics" served as a therapeutic outlet, allowing him to process and release his pent-up emotions.

Neal Brennan [15:19]: "Doing three mics got it out of me, got the pain out of me. It used to weigh down on me."

---

Comedy as Catharsis and Its Evolution

Trevor Noah and Brennan delve into the role of comedy as a means of coping with personal trauma. Brennan articulates that while comedy provides an avenue to express and process pain, it doesn't necessarily offer true catharsis.

Neal Brennan [19:20]: "It's like material you don't believe anymore. It's like you just churn it out."

Trevor contrasts this with his own experience, suggesting that comedians may use humor as a shield rather than a method of genuine emotional release.

Trevor Noah [20:02]: "I don't think it's cathartic. The reason I don't think it's cathartic is because comedians get to do the thing with the audience, and that is we escape with the laugh."

---

Impact of Social Media on Comedy and Polarization

A significant portion of the discussion addresses how social media has transformed the landscape of comedy, leading to increased polarization and the phenomenon of "cancel culture." Brennan observes that the advent of platforms like Twitter has made comedians' political stances more visible, thereby intertwining their personal beliefs with their comedic personas.

Neal Brennan [26:10]: "Until 2008, the Internet, social media. Once social media started, then it became like Twitter and dunking on people."

Trevor Noah elaborates on how the lack of context in online interactions exacerbates misunderstandings and conflicts, ultimately harming the essence of comedy.

Trevor Noah [47:30]: "The problem with like Comedy now, let's say, or jokes even, is there's no context anymore."

They discuss the challenges comedians face in navigating these turbulent waters, balancing artistic expression with societal expectations.

---

Mental Health, Healing, and Personal Growth

Neal Brennan shares his journey towards healing through unconventional means such as Ayahuasca, DMT, and MDMA, emphasizing their role in altering his perception and relationship with himself.

Neal Brennan [71:40]: "It's the Ayahuasca, 5meo DMT and then MDMA. That's how I did them. They work for me."

Brennan highlights the importance of changing one's relationship with life’s facts as a pathway to overcoming feelings of unluckiness and resentment.

Neal Brennan [73:40]: "Changing my relationship to the facts of my life. Life isn't fair. No one's life should be as good as mine."

Trevor Noah reflects on his own experiences with ADHD and depression, underscoring the necessity of balancing acceptance with striving for improvement.

Trevor Noah [77:27]: "It's about finding a balance that's hard and it's almost two ideas. It's almost impossible because it's like how you look at it, how you choose to relate to it, how you move through..."

---

Relationships and Navigating Differences

The dialogue explores maintaining friendships amidst differing political beliefs and societal pressures. Brennan and Noah express concern over the diminishing ability to maintain connections that accommodate disagreement without fracturing.

Neal Brennan [43:40]: "Now it's infected that as well."

Trevor Noah [43:52]: "People have less and less ability now to maintain friendships or to maintain connections that also hold a space of disagreement or conflict."

Christiana Mbakwe adds perspective on the real-world implications of political tensions, emphasizing the difficulty of seeing others as whole individuals amidst societal divisiveness.

Christiana Mbakwe [46:03]: "It's a time where women currently can't get abortions... real world implications for like these controversial right wing or even like super far left ideas."

---

Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Trevor Noah shares personal stories of meeting Neal Brennan, highlighting their evolving friendship and mutual growth. These interactions illustrate the transformative power of genuine human connections beyond superficial perceptions.

Trevor Noah [57:03]: "I saw your jokes on Twitter and I was like, this guy's funny. And then I followed him, and now I just love his jokes."

Neal Brennan [62:07]: "You were one of the first people I believe I called."

---

Concluding Thoughts

The episode culminates with reflections on personal change and the enduring human spirit. Both Brennan and Noah acknowledge the continuous journey of healing and the importance of adaptability in an ever-changing world.

Neal Brennan [73:55]: "Life is a balance between the two... shifting your relationship to it."

Trevor Noah [79:12]: "What you say to me. How you respond to me. How you see me. You've become who you are because of me. And vice versa."

Key Takeaways:

1. Comedy as a Double-Edged Sword: While comedy serves as a coping mechanism, it can also prevent true emotional processing.
2. Social Media’s Role in Polarization: The lack of context and increased visibility of personal beliefs on social platforms complicates comedic expression and fosters divisiveness.
3. Healing Through Altered States: Unconventional methods like Ayahuasca and MDMA can offer profound personal insights and facilitate healing.
4. Maintaining Relationships Amid Differences: Navigating friendships with differing political and social beliefs requires empathy, understanding, and the willingness to accept disagreements.
5. Personal Growth and Adaptability: Continuous self-reflection and adaptability are essential for personal growth and overcoming past traumas.

This episode provides a deep and nuanced exploration of how personal experiences and societal changes intersect within the realm of comedy and beyond, offering listeners valuable insights into the complexities of healing and human connection.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

There are few people I know who have spent more time in comedy than Neil Brennan. Like, few human beings. And when I say comedy, I mean every level of comedy.

[Neil Brennan]

Tv, administration. Yeah. No, really, Paperwork.

[Trevor Noah]

No, really.

[Neil Brennan]

Scheduling.

[Trevor Noah]

You are that guy. Club comedy, Neil Brennan has been in the trenches of the trenches. So I was gonna ask you about this, but, like, I feel like there is no comedian who does not have something wrong with them. No good comedian.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I learned that from the Daily Show. I was like, all these people are insane. But I was like, these are not normal people.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Like, there's a. And it doesn't matter what it is. It might just. It might be your family. It might be your. The country you lived in. It might be just a neurodivergent thing that you have in your own head. And you grew up in a fine.

[Neil Brennan]

What's funny is doing my. I do a podcast called Blocks where I have people on and we talk about the. Their issues.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

And I know that they're not the real issues. Do you know what I mean? Like, these are the issues that you're willing. These are the showcase issues. Oh, man. And I'm like, wait, real issues? But you think they know a couple days a year, they know. They know a couple days a year. They can actually be like, ugh.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But they don't want to look at it.

[Trevor Noah]

This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The holidays are almost here and who doesn't love getting a little back? This season, I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on presents I buy for my loved ones with my Apple card without paying a single fee. It's simple and convenient because it's in the wallet app on my iPhone. So it's always with me. And because everything I need is in one place, it's easy to see what I've spent and make a payment. So if you have an iPhone, you can apply for an Apple card and start using it right away. It's easy. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.74% to 28.99% based on creditworthiness rates as of October 1, 2024. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Atlassian Atlassian team collaboration software like Jira, Confluence and Loom help power collaboration for enterprise companies around the globe. With products that enable AI powered teamwork, doing the impossible just became possible. So join the 83% of the Fortune 500 that trust Atlassian to help transform their enterprise. Learn how to unleash the potential of your [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by the Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas. Celebrate the unexpected at the Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas, the most unique luxury resort and casino in the heart of the Strip. Discover a one of a kind restaurant collection, a vibrant mix of bars and lounges and three distinct pool experiences. From panoramic views on your private terrace and countless ways to be entertained, Find a scene that suits your every mood and experience. Elevated luxury. Nothing is off the table and temptation is around every corner. Reserve your stay now atcosmopolitan Las Vegas.com if you don't know Neil Brennan, you probably don't know comedy, right? Neil Brennan is in many ways like the Forrest Gump of comedy. He has been everywhere. He knows everyone. No comedian who is worth their salt in anything does not have a story about Neil Brennan. I don't care where they're from, I don't care what they're doing. I'm talking about comedians from other countries as well, not just in America. Like, they know Neil Brennan, right? I know some of your story, but I don't want to miss it, especially for the audience. So Neil Brennan is born where?

[Neil Brennan]

In Philadelphia. Outside Philadelphia.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. I had like, Ireland in my head for some reason.

[Neil Brennan]

It feels like it.

[Trevor Noah]

It feels like it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Brennan. It really is the best Irish name.

[Trevor Noah]

It really is.

[Neil Brennan]

I'm an Irish citizen, but I got my.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, you are?

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, I got my citize, like, recently.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, look at you.

[Neil Brennan]

I don't know what to do with it, but congratulations.

[Trevor Noah]

Just do it. Just use it.

[Neil Brennan]

I'm going to. Yeah, Eu. I'm going to move somewhere.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. So you're born in Philadelphia.

[Neil Brennan]

Born in Philadelphia.

[Trevor Noah]

The last of ten.

[Neil Brennan]

Last of ten.

[Trevor Noah]

How many boys? How many girls?

[Neil Brennan]

Six total. Six boys, four girls. And. Yeah, and then, I don't know, it was just youngest attendant. It's pretty chaotic and it's a lot of kids in a house. It's a bit like an orphanage and. But no one comes. Well, your parents, no one comes to take you.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'm curious, like, the age gap between 1 and 10 and where your parents are.

[Neil Brennan]

10 kids in 16 years.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

16 years. But I'm curious about. By the time your parents got to you, were they like, oh, fuck it? It was pretty much.

[Neil Brennan]

It was just kind of like, ah, yeah, you'll. It's. Whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. But still. Still I was like, I worked a lot, I caddied I. But I was, like, drank, smoked, and my mom would just kind of not even wait.

[Trevor Noah]

How old are you when this is happening?

[Neil Brennan]

13.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. Yeah, 13, 14. I got underage drinking when I was 16. Cops. Oh, damn. Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So, I mean, I was a troublemaker, kind of.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. But I stopped once. I remember the end of high school being like, I don't really need to drink. Like, I've never been that into. It was just, like, I was just doing it. I wasn't much of. I was. I was similar in that, like, I was friends with a lot of friend group and pretty funny. And, like, what was the.

[Trevor Noah]

Was the family funny? Cause I've never known this part of your comedy. Like, who was the funny in your family or where did the funny come from?

[Neil Brennan]

My dad liked comedy. I think a lot of what he. His jokes were kind of stolen from, like, Frank Sinatra. And, like, where I'd go, like, oh, I know that cadence. Where I'd listen to a Frank. I'd watch a Frank Sinatra, and I'd be like, oh, that's where he got it. He was one of 13, so. And it's a lot of boys in that family. There's probably seven boys in this family. So it was, like, a lot of sort of sarcasm. And then. This is a funny story. At one year at Thanksgiving, I'm in high school, one of my brothers said, kevin, you're not even the funniest one in the family. Neil is. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Neil Brennan]

Like, kind of openly competitive. For funniest.

[Trevor Noah]

I guess, specifically for funniest.

[Neil Brennan]

I. Well, I guess in this case. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

Or something. Yeah, there was. It was. But now, having said that, my older brothers and sisters were all so great to me in that they. They all had jobs that were interesting that I got access to. My brother Joe was a caddy on the PGA Tour. So I would go to, like, PGA Tour events and, like, knew Kevin. Kevin was a comedian. So I got entree into that in high school. Knew David Tell, New Louie. Knew, like, met Louis when I was in high school. Ray Romano, all these guys. Tommy worked at the Chicago Stadium and Wrigley Field. So I used to go to Cubs games, Bulls games. I saw a white girl mistake Michael Jordan for somebody else. That's how long ago this was. Imagine how long ago this was. A white girl said, hey, are you Orlando Woolridge? And his. I remember Michael Jordan's face falling and being like, no, I'm Michael Jordan. This is prehistoric time. So I got a lot of possibilities. I got to see a lot of Possibilities and a lot of life choices and life paths from the family.

[Trevor Noah]

Whenever I think of big families, I don't know, I'm torn. You know, my family, like brothers are split. So I have two younger brothers. One is 10 years younger, one is 20 years younger. So for all intents and purposes, it feels like we were all single kids in a way, but then we all occupy an age position, you know, So I do feel like the eldest because of age, but not because your mom's.

[Neil Brennan]

Parenting changed a lot.

[Trevor Noah]

So I would say she's changed, but not her parents. So her ability to execute her parenting style has evolved with age. Like I was talking to my youngest brother about this the other day. It's like, I don't think my mom's vibe changed, but when I was young, she could chase me. When my brother was naughty, she couldn't chase him as much as she could chase me. So I think she then had to adapt. But over a long distance, she always got me. Sure, she always got me. But I always wondered, like, in a big family, like. Cause I craved it most of my life. And then I would meet people in mega big families and they would say, oh, I felt forgotten. I felt like there wasn't enough love to go around. Like, did you feel like that?

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, I think just. It's a resources issue. Now having said that, the economist Thomas Sowell used to say, there are no solutions, there's only trade offs, which I think is just true about everything. So there's no one thing like that's better because then only children. There's like downsides to only children, apparently, the ego. And they don't know how to share, they don't know how to interact or whatever. Ah, but they're very loved, maybe too loved. I. I don't. So I don't. I think you could persuade me either way. I think if a kid's loved, that's good. If, if. But I wasn't necessarily like, didn't get the most love from my dad necessarily. Specifically my mom, like wanted to, but like had to cook or whatever. Yeah. So. And she did. But it was just. It's just, you know, she had her hands full. So I don't know. I don't know what the. I don't know what the best. What are you. You're doing it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I know.

[Neil Brennan]

So how do you.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Well, I'm curious before I answer this, do you and your siblings get on. Are you close?

[Neil Brennan]

Remember that Thanksgiving story?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

That spirit remains. Oh, I mean, it's, it's so.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's Openly competitive.

[Neil Brennan]

My dad was competitive.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Neil Brennan]

With us. So I think that there's, like. That's kind of sounds like succession. I mean, I was about to.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Like, your dad could win.

[Neil Brennan]

It's white trash success.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You said it.

[Neil Brennan]

No, exactly. Yeah, it. It's. Yeah, it is. It's competitive. One of my brothers used to keep track of who made the most money best doc. Yeah. And then Chappelle show happened, and he was like, this is stupid. So I don't. You know, I would say it's a mixed bag. I think some are close, some are not. But the good news about 10 kids, you don't have to be close with all of them.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's multiple families in one. Famous. Cause most of the time, I feel like your siblings sort of not have to be, but you have to be close to them because these are the only people who've shared your existence. But then when there's 10, there's a lot of people who've shared your existence. You can choose within the time.

[Neil Brennan]

Generational thing of my brother Joe, 16 years older than me, so he wasn't. He said to me recently, he's like. I realized, like, we never really knew each other. I was like, yeah, how would we have. He moved out when I was four or something, or maybe even three. So it becomes more like an uncle thing.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Also, the thing with siblings is just, like, if you weren't siblings, oftentimes you wouldn't be friends. Like, that's just like, if you met.

[Neil Brennan]

Them in a while, what are the odds?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, what are the odds? But now you're forced to become friends, which is.

[Neil Brennan]

Okay, so tell me what your plan is and if you're executing it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'm reading this book called Siblings Without Rivalry.

[Neil Brennan]

Okay.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

When I'm done with the book, I'll let you know. I'm really afraid because I come from. I don't know. And I don't know if it's like, African family dynamics. I don't want to be generalized here, but I always remember there were always, like, fights about land. And that sounds so parochial.

[Trevor Noah]

I was about to say that sounds like an insult that someone would say.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I know it sounds like to an.

[Neil Brennan]

African, I'm just gonna listen to Trump.

[Trevor Noah]

They're like.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

They're eating cats and dogs. They're fighting over land.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, no. But, like, I've just. Conflict was kind of ambient in the extended family. Me and my sisters are figuring it out. We're at very different phases in our lives, but we're a good unit.

[Neil Brennan]

It's underneath that big tree from Black Panther, Right. Basically, that's the one. It's just a feud missing this feud. Right.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

The Vibranium.

[Neil Brennan]

The Vibranium, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Christiana, there are a few things you need to focus on with your siblings. You know, the weirdest thing for me with Black Panther is, like, sometimes when I. When I do the. Because they. It's like the accent that they're doing is a South African accent, but they're not a South African accent. So even when I do it, I have to, like.

[Neil Brennan]

You have to undo. And you were in it and do a different accent, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah. I had to, like, because I wanted to match the general accent, so I didn't want to, like, come in there with, like, a weird. Like, what is this guy doing?

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then. So I was like, no, I'll try and, like, figure out the vibe that everyone's in, and then. And then I'll go from there.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And then. So it's very weird for me. Are your parents still alive?

[Neil Brennan]

My mom is. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Mama's still. How old. How old is she?

[Neil Brennan]

91.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Wow.

[Neil Brennan]

Or 90. 90. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

What was it like for you when your dad passed away? Because, you know, you share very openly in your special about how, like. And I think you and I have connected a lot on this. Growing up in a home with a man who's very violent with his alcohol. Like, it's a terrifying existence.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I think you and I, I don't know, we bond around this. I think a lot of our comedy is shaped by this or this feeling. But I've always wondered, what did it feel like when your dad passed away?

[Neil Brennan]

You know, the interesting thing was, like, we'd kind of made peace prior to him dying, and then he did the thing with the will, which is in three mics.

[Trevor Noah]

But for those who don't know what. What.

[Neil Brennan]

What I. Netflix is a streaming platform, and I have a special on there called three Mics. It's one of my three specialists. One called Three Mikes, one called Blocks, and one called Crazy Good, which is the newest one. Pretty popular. My dad, we never really got along, and then he died and left money in his will to everyone but me. So it was just painful. That part was painful. But I just don't. It's weirdly like, doing three mics got it out of me, got the pain out of me. It used to weigh down on me. It used to be like a cause of anger.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

And now it just either from doing three mics or something. I just can kind of see the positive in that. And I actually wrote him a note before he died. Love. Like, I appreciate the socioeconomic position he put me in. Meaning, like, I got to go to NYE. I'm paid for some of it. But, like, NYU's not cheap. Anything was possible, which I think is a thing that you. Is a kind of. As a parent has got to be one of the main goals. He one time said, when I was growing up, we were told all you had to provide your kid was food and shelter. And I remember going, like, the government can do that. So I guess he's born in 1930. Like, that's a different world. It's just a different. And I've gotten more. I don't even know if I've gotten empathetic, but I've certainly gotten less angry as time goes on.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'm curious, were you angry because you thought he was trying to spite you? Cause, like, my instant. Mine goes to. As a parent, he didn't leave you the money because you were the most successful and he's the kid that thought you were going to be okay. That's like my parents giving him this gration and.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But was your anger because you're like, oh, you're trying to spite me?

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. It felt like a flick. Like a last little flick. Like, oh, well, you're Mr. Tough Guy or something. But yeah, it could go either. It's one of those things of, like, could be.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And you haven't. Have you asked your mom? Have you asked your siblings?

[Neil Brennan]

Basically, yeah. They tried to talk her out of it.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, so they knew.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So you didn't know leading up to.

[Neil Brennan]

I didn't know.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Neil Brennan]

They knew and they tried to talk him out of it. And he was like that. And he just. And then I've heard from another brother that he did. He was sort of flagging him about, like, you're just here for the money.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Neil Brennan]

Like, it was sort of a real. He went down swinging.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

So to speak. So I don't really know what to make of it other than I'm glad I don't carry it because it's just not. It's not helpful.

[Trevor Noah]

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Travel is all about learning and experiencing things in a new, exciting way. But you could get even more from your travels. With the Chase Sapphire Reserve Card, you can earn three times the points on travel purchases and receive a 300 travel credit. It Also comes with plenty of other perks too, like access to Sapphire's airport lounge network. You can relax and refresh with locally inspired menus, a curated selection of drinks and more before getting on your flight. Make the most out of your next trip. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase Bank, NA Member, FDIC, subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom Rack. Just in and so good. Thousands of new winter deals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save up to 60% on Sam Edelman, Sorrel Free People, Cole Haan and more. Cold weather fines. Great brands, great prices. That's why you wreck.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So I'm curious. Cause you guys are both comedians. I'm not. Is comedy really that cathartic? Cause like, hearing Neil, you say, like, I released this thing, I surrendered it, and I can put it behind. Is the word. Is the word.

[Neil Brennan]

You just say it so much that it's in a weird way you'll relate. Yeah, it's like material you don't believe anymore. Yeah, it's like you just Chappelle is an observation that jokes are like tires that they did. The tread wears out. And if I'm doing a show about my dad, you just. After a while it's like, what? So there's partially that which is just sort of like getting tired of saying something. And I would say it's more from the spiritual stuff of like, releasing it. But there was before the spiritual stuff, there was this idea of like. Yeah, I don't know. I think I just sort of like, talked it out. Have you. You talk less personally than I do. But your earlier shows were a little more personal.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, actually. So I used to speak more personally and then I realized, won't make that mistake again. No, I think there's sort of a weird idea I adopted in and around taking over the Daily show. And it was like, don't make it about you. Do you know what I mean? It was like, okay, it's about the show, it's about the work, it's about the. You know. And now on the other side of it, now I'm going back into more personal material. Now I'm going back into. But it's funny. I never thought it was cathartic.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So even in your early work, when you're sharing about your experience, being mixed raised.

[Trevor Noah]

I'll be honest, I don't think. And I don't think it's cathartic for most comedians. If I'm honest, I think what happens a lot of the time is. Comedians have found like a. It's almost like a. It's like a shield that you can put in front of you to seem like you are dealing with the thing, but you are not dealing with the thing and you're speaking about it to people. So people are like, oh, wow, you're speaking about it, so you must be over it, or you must be. But I don't think it's cathartic. The reason I don't think it's cathartic is because comedians get to do the thing with the audience, and that is we escape with the laugh. Do you know what I mean? And so I think real catharsis requires you to stay in something until it is released, as opposed to finding a way to escape, you know.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Is it avoidance then? I don't know.

[Trevor Noah]

It's not avoidance.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's not too psychological, like avoidance?

[Trevor Noah]

No, look, it's not avoidance. I think. And I was thinking about this before this conversation. I was gonna ask you. This generation of comedians is the first. I remember the shift. I don't know if you remember. There was a point in comedy where we saw almost every few months a comedian committing suicide somewhere. You would just hear it. You'd walk into a comedy club, the.

[Neil Brennan]

Good old days, everyone would be around.

[Trevor Noah]

Everyone would be around a table in the club, and they'd just be like a sad feeling. And you'd be like, hey, what's going on? And be like, oh, did you hear about Bobby? Did you hear about blah, blah, blah? Maybe, like, what happened? They're like, oh, yeah. No, they found him in a hotel room in Pennsylvania. They found him in a hotel room in Ohio somewhere. They found him in a hotel room. And this was constant. It was just. It was. And it was almost. It was almost expected in many ways. And then I don't know what happened, but suddenly something shifted. All of a sudden, comedians wouldn't be ordering the chicken wings backstage. They were ordering the celery and the kale and the baby carrots and the hummus. And then they wouldn't be ordering a drink, like a cocktail or whiskey. They'd be ordering water. You know, Then, like, you'd know. And then comedians would be like, oh, yeah, I gotta leave now. I'm working out in the morning.

[Neil Brennan]

I mean, in a way, it's a contradiction in that. That people are getting. I think culture in general is getting more like self carry.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Wellness.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, wellness. Now, the thing I wanted to talk to you about was I had something I want to talk to you about, which is the what I call wisdom Theater or wellness theater. Performative. Wellness. Performative Wisdom. Meaning we talked about a mutual friend of ours who wanted to be the most healed guy.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, Jesus.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

This is killing me.

[Neil Brennan]

Where people go on podcasts, they host podcasts, they know offense.

[Trevor Noah]

No offense to all of us, including yourself, everyone.

[Neil Brennan]

To the company included. Yes. Where it becomes about performing wisdom, performing self care, performing altruism, performing altruism, performing and all the. And it's like this isn't it either. Do you think it's even helpful to have all of this? Like, I meditated this morning, just all that stuff. Because I believe it's all for. In service of being better at capitalism.

[Trevor Noah]

I always say, you know, the easiest way to see it. Well, tell my friends. Is when you look at a post, let's say online, as soon as somebody says, here's how I did it, or, you know, this is how I became more productive, I'm like, no, that's not the point. Like, meditating is not about becoming more productive.

[Neil Brennan]

Buddha was all about rising and grinding. If you know the story at all, it's all about, I don't know, I.

[Trevor Noah]

Just think we're in the age of it right now. And I accept it, you know, And I'll be honest, I am. I don't mind the fact that the trend right now is to be healthy.

[Neil Brennan]

Right. Cause that's a fine trend if you're gonna depict trends.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, I love wellness.

[Neil Brennan]

It's the best work haul is in.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

The crunchy and insane. You don't even wanna.

[Neil Brennan]

I'm vegan, so I don't wanna. Don't even talk to me.

[Trevor Noah]

There was a time in comedy where one thing comedians all shared was comedy, right? It didn't matter, like, who you were, where you were from, what you did. Black, white, old, young woman, man, it really didn't matter. It didn't matter. We had this thing, we would go into a comedy club and it was like comedy time. And we all just had comedy. And then I noticed over the past few years, and it's funny. I'm less worried about it for comedy and I'm more worried about what it means for society. Is I've noticed a creep of polarization even in comedy. Like comedy used to be, everyone does everything and they're comedians. And someone will get on stage and say the craziest joke. That is, whatever, you know, it can be anything, misogynistic, racist, you name it. But it's within the confines of comedy. Like, they're using the tools to make a Joke about it. Right. And then now comedy's slowly becoming like, oh, well, those people, that's their politics. We don't do comedy with them. And these people, we don't do comedy with them. Like, do you think politics is gonna end comedy as we know it?

[Neil Brennan]

It is. Well, it's cult. It's the world. It's like, I've known Joe Rogan 30 plus years and I didn't know his politics until nine years ago. And it's not because they were. They. He didn't have any. It's just because you didn't know. You literally didn't know what somebody's politics were.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

Until I'm going to say, 2008, the Internet, social media. And then once social media started, then it became like Twitter and dunking on people and see so and so's tweet. And that's. That's. I'm triggered and that's inappropriate. And that's. They're going to pay. And now I have to, like, mute them or I have to not. Like, I've actually thought, can I like this tweet? Because there's going to be some sort.

[Trevor Noah]

Of people who will see that you liked it.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes. And then we're all part of so many different groups that we've always been, but it just kind of didn't. They weren't. You didn't wear them all. All the time.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

Now it's almost like the. There was a Daily show joke, I think, where they had the Formula One or the NASCAR sponsorships.

[Trevor Noah]

Right, Right. But it was all the badges of.

[Neil Brennan]

All the badges of, like, people that had donated. That's where all these things now. And we used to just not be.

[Trevor Noah]

I was thinking this back when Elon Musk had the rocket come back down to Earth. I remember watching that first.

[Neil Brennan]

I texted him. I was so excited. Go ahead. Known him 29 years. Go on.

[Trevor Noah]

You're clearly a verified user. Yeah. I watched the rocket come down first. I thought it was a fake video because it's so amazing that it looks fake.

[Neil Brennan]

Did you watch the longer one? Like, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Trevor Noah]

That's the one I'm talking about.

[Neil Brennan]

Wait, this is going to land.

[Trevor Noah]

So I thought it was going. I thought someone had reversed. Reversed the video because I was like, this makes no sense. I was like, physics, what is happening here? And I'm watching all of this. And then I texted all my friends, especially, like, friends who love tech and everything. I was like, this is the most amazing thing. Have you seen this? And I was like, have you? And people were like, screw that guy.

[Neil Brennan]

I know.

[Trevor Noah]

And I was like.

[Neil Brennan]

Whereas you were going like. I was like, maybe the fascism's worth it.

[Trevor Noah]

That's not what I was saying. That's not what I was saying. And I've now learned on the podcast, I have to now be very clear. That's not what I was.

[Neil Brennan]

This is not.

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Neil Brennan]

This not represent me.

[Trevor Noah]

No. And even in my group of friends, I didn't understand, and I still don't understand why people feel the need to tell me how they feel about a thing that I know they feel about. But I'm like, I'm your friend. If I send you a video of an Elon Musk rocket being caught from space, and I go, this is amazing. Don't say to me, elon Musk sucks. Yeah, I know how you feel.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. They're afraid in that thing of, like, if I like this tweet, am I gonna get in trouble?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But this is in our own messages with friends.

[Neil Brennan]

Right. But it's infected that as well.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, man. That's terrifying to me.

[Neil Brennan]

It really has. I think it's terrifying to me. Once people start releasing texts in court cases, in doxing, any of these, that's like the. This is bad.

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Neil Brennan]

This is bad.

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Neil Brennan]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm gonna go on the record and say, I will never judge anybody for texts that get released unless those texts indict them about something they've done in public. Because of the con. It's like a comedy club. It goes back to the same rule. If we're in a comedy club, we know that the people in here are trying to say things that elicit a laugh from the audience. So a comedian will make a joke about anything. They'll make a joke about murder. They'll make a joke about genocides. They'll make a joke about rape. They'll make a joke.

[Neil Brennan]

I heard a comedian make a joke referring to a bunch of suicides as the good old days.

[Trevor Noah]

That was on this podcast that was on one of the episodes.

[Neil Brennan]

What?

[Trevor Noah]

Go back through the episodes and you'll find it. But.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But.

[Trevor Noah]

But that's what I mean. It's like, there's the context, and. And we. When we maintain that context, people know, oh, yeah, you can send something to your friend or your family member that is egregious. It can be the most horrible thing towards them or towards somebody else. But because of the context, they know that you're joking. They know that. Do you get what I'm saying? And I actually Worry about that world. I don't want to live in a world where we now have to sort.

[Neil Brennan]

Of like thought police.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, we have to now go like, I've never had that thought. I do not think anything that is bad could be funny.

[Neil Brennan]

I do not think.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, never say in private what you won't stand behind in public.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but it's a joke. I wouldn't say many things.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You know, I say crazy stuff in private everywhere.

[Neil Brennan]

You do actually, but it's free. Then there's no difference between private and public.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, obviously there are private acts. There's things that you do in private that you would never do in public, but just be who you are. I think it's easier.

[Neil Brennan]

Have you ever been on a group chat or even a one to one chat where someone's texted something and you've been like, boy, that's hot.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I mean that's what texts are for.

[Neil Brennan]

I agree. Every group chat with me, but have you ever gone, do I give it a ha ha, do I give it a thumbs up? Do I what do I give this? And if it ever goes public, I've truly had that thought.

[Trevor Noah]

So I think that society, you know, it's not to delve too deep into the world of like the shadow self and all of these things, but we need to accept that as human beings. The paradox of the brain is that it is thinking about what it should not think about. Even when we're telling it to think about something.

[Neil Brennan]

It's mostly an intrusive thought.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. Everything.

[Neil Brennan]

90% intrusive.

[Trevor Noah]

When I'm on the freeway, most of the time I'm thinking, crash that, crash that, run over there, crash that, run over there, run over them, crash that, crash. I'm not doing it though, but my brain is going, what would happen, what would happen? What would happen? You know what I mean? So I actually, personally, as Trevor, I go, I judge people based on their actions, not on their thoughts. Because I go, that is, in my opinion what makes you a good person is that you act in a way that is good for other people or for yourself and you don't follow all the thoughts that are. In fact, if you follow all the thoughts, I think they would put you in an asylum. They would say that you are. You listen to the voices in your head.

[Neil Brennan]

You just be in jail.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I personally just feel suspicious of people who are like nice about people all the time. Just like that person makes me feel.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh that, I mean that is true. No, because you're there, I'm with you.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But that's the world we're in right now. Like, if you say anything about anyone, public or private, it has to be a nice or kind thing, because I just think it's. It's not the human experience sometimes, like, because I'm like, oh, I don't like them. And people are like, why? I'm just like. It's just a feeling. They've done nothing. I just. Like, that's a real thing to have, like, this visceral reaction to someone. But I think the way our politics are in the world, the way the world is going, it's just that people think that they have to play nice all the time.

[Neil Brennan]

It's just.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And they're just being disingenuous.

[Neil Brennan]

It's just the. It's creeping.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you think it's hurt comedy as a whole?

[Neil Brennan]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Neil Brennan]

I don't. I mean, I don't. There's no comedy, first of all. It's never been more popular. It's never been more lucrative. So this idea that comedy's being hurt or cancel culture or any of that stuff, it's like, everyone I know that I want to do a joke. Like, yeah, you gotta be careful as a comedian. Cause, you know, you could say something and then somebody will clip it, and then next thing you know, you'll be doing arenas. It's everyone I know that gets canceled. It's. You get canceled up. It's the Crucible. It's like, how are you going to respond to this?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Neil Brennan]

And then that's how people judge you. And if you cower and go and genuflect, or if you ignore it, or if you double down or. There's ways to do it, but it makes the audience trust you more, I think.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. I remember I bumped into Shane Gillis, and I remember chatting to him, and I was like. And I genuinely mean this. I was like, I'm so proud of Shane Gillis as a human being and as a comedian. Because he got fired off of snl, people discarded him. They're like, he's out. Then he amassed a huge amount of fans who were like, yeah, bring more.

[Neil Brennan]

He's a prime case.

[Trevor Noah]

They were like, bring more races. Bring more. They were like, do. Do the thing that. And I'll never forget his first shows that he booked. I think it was at the stand, actually, in New York. Shane comes out and he basically addresses the fact that people have come there to see racist jokes, and he's like, that's not what I do.

[Neil Brennan]

Same noodle. Like a Chinese person.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And. And He. And he didn't. And then he subverted the whole thing, and he joked about it, and then he. And even now, like, I go, genuinely, Shane Gillis is one of the people where. And I don't think anyone, quote unquote, let's say, has an excuse, but he would have had an excuse to be an asshole. Shane was like, no. He's like, hey, man, I made some jokes. You didn't like them. I'm still gonna make jokes. And genuinely now, I think he's one of the best comedians working in the world. And when you watch his comedy, I don't care what you are, by the way, conservative, liberal, whatever you think you are. Shane Gillis is funny, but I also think it's amazing to see somebody who was able to withstand the, like, the. You know, the horde that supports the worst instincts.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, because someone. One person can go, neil, how could you say that? You get canceled. And then what happens is there's a crowd that comes in to, like, claim you. And they're like, yes, Neil, yes. Join us. All the things. Yes. And you know how we feel about those people. And you're like, man, I just made a joke that some people didn't like. And they're like, no, but Neil, do only those jokes.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And Shane, I don't know, like, how he did it as a human, because that must have been really hard.

[Neil Brennan]

I think he shrugged it off. He just seemed to kind of go like, oh, I don't know how, though.

[Trevor Noah]

This next segment, Core Memories, is brought to you by Starbucks. The holidays aren't just about grand gestures, but the little moments that bring warmth, connection, and joy to the season. I remember the first time I experienced a winter Christmas in America. It felt like I was stepping into a movie. Because, you see, back home in South Africa, Christmases are all about summer, right? It's barbecues, cold drinks, and running around outside in the sun. That's how I grew up. But here I was, sitting by the window, watching snowflakes fall, something I'd only ever seen on TV before. Everything felt so still, like the world outside had been wrapped in a thick, cozy blanket. Inside, it was warm. Almost too warm, to be honest. The heat was on, and there was a smell of cinnamon in the air, which, by the way, Americans love. I couldn't help but laugh at myself. I was bundled in three layers of clothing, even though everyone else seemed perfectly comfortable in their one sweater, a very ugly sweater. We spent the evening indoors, playing board games where people were fighting over sheep. I still don't understand what that game was about, but what struck me was the coziness of it all. Everyone gathered together and the sound of laughter filled the room. It was such a contrast to the Christmases I had grown up with, where everything was loud and outdoors and this was slower and it was more intimate. And honestly, I loved it just as much. There's something magical about being stuck inside because of the cold, surrounded by people you care about while the rest of the world feels like it's standing still. That was the moment I realized Christmases aren't really about the weather or the food. It's all about who you spend it with. There's no denying moments like these are so much more magical when they're paired with the comforting flavors of the holiday season create core memories this holiday season. Order your favorite holiday beverage on the Starbucks app today.

[Neil Brennan]

You get in trouble from time to time. And I don't say that joking, but I'm saying, how do you. How do you. How do you. What's your philosophy?

[Trevor Noah]

So it's funny. Christiana and I were talking about. We were literally talking about this. So, like, after the Ta Nehisi episode on the podcast, right? I had. You name it, I had people phoning me. Everybody from everywhere, you know, so every, like, you run the spectrum from friends, friends, close friends, going like, Trevor, like, how could you have that man on? And that is extremist, and it's anti Semitic, and this is trash, and why would you even sit there and listen to him? And all the way through to strangers just being like, this is why you should be dead. I wish apartheid had killed you. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Neil Brennan]

So you got my message.

[Trevor Noah]

And the two of you know me in those moments more than most people, right? And the first thing I do is listen, because I go like, all right, tell me everything. Just tell me everything, you know? And so, like, a friend of mine would just be like, oh. He's like, you know, I can't believe you. Why didn't you ask Ta Nehisi this? And why didn't you ask him that? And I responded, and I. I was like, hey, the same way if somebody's coming to talk about, like, their documentary about something that happened in Israel, I'm not gonna push them on everything about what's happening in Gaza, because this is the part of the story that we're here to talk about. And it was interesting. Like, when I have those conversations, I just listen to what the person is saying, what they're feeling, and then I try and understand where we are missing each other, you know? So the one note, for instance, I said to a friend, one of my friends, he was like, I hated the fact that you talked about Jewish people, and then you talked about Israel and you talked about Jewish people, But then you conflated the. And I was like, oh, yeah. Actually, you're right.

[Neil Brennan]

Okay. Yeah. Well, that's what I'm curious about. How much. Because I find that. How much does your listening affect your judgment?

[Trevor Noah]

Can you say something?

[Neil Brennan]

How big does. How big is the. How much growth is there? Go ahead.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Because to me, I always see Trevor as very, like, unflappable. Maybe that's the Swiss, German, like, the veneer of, like. No, he seems unflappable. So I was like. Because it was like, the backlash was a bit weird, so I hit him up. But I think Trevor just heals quickly and better. I call him Wolverine. Like, he, like, heals very quickly and.

[Neil Brennan]

Better because he takes a ton of steroids.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No. Maybe. I don't know. It's the shrooms, I think. But no, like, I think he does feel it. That's what I'm concerned about.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I feel all of it. He feels everything.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

He's such a Pisces.

[Trevor Noah]

I feel all of it.

[Neil Brennan]

What do you play? Fever?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You're very sensitive.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I am very sensitive, and I feel all of it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I wouldn't have. No, I'm like. But you don't. No.

[Trevor Noah]

So.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay, you don't see it.

[Trevor Noah]

So there's a few things that. Have you asked me this question? And I realized there's a few things that have helped me understand this. And it's funny, because I think, Neil, you'll have something similar but different because of your upbringing. So, first of all, I grew up in a house and in a country where there was a lot of violence, right? And so when I was a child watching this, I never once looked at it and went, yeah, this is. This is right. I even talk to my mom now, and I go, why would you get so angry when you were hitting me? And she's like, because you wouldn't listen. I'm like, yeah, but why did you get angry, though? I was like, you know, you could have just, like, done it as like, a. All right, kid, here comes your punishment. And then she would say, she's like, I was so frustrated. And I was like. I was like, I know. I, you know, cut something open. I know I dismantled the tv. I know I burnt down a room. I know. Whatever I did. But even me as a child, I would go, huh? That was not ideal, but I'm not going to lose my cool over this. And then I'd get my beating and then I would cry and I'd feel it. I'd feel everything. But the thing that would stick with me is how it didn't make sense for people to lose their cool. And I, you know, I talk to my friends about them. We have these big fights. But I go, every one of our parents, especially African parents. But I mean, I know, you know how Neil grew up, yo parents were beating kids, and this was like a normal thing. And now we joke about it. You'd be like, oh, you pray there's no shoe around, and you pray like, Eddie Murphy had those jokes. And we all laughed about it. But I think I grew up watching this going, huh, this is not. It doesn't seem to be ideal, and it doesn't seem to get where I'm going. So maybe what I did a little too much was I internalize it. So I keep it in me. But then what I do is I. And that's where ADHD helps. I'm having six conversations now at the same time. So you're speaking to me and I'm listening to what you're saying. And then I'm sort of going to like, one tree, which is like, okay, how do I agree with you? How do I disagree with you? What's happening here? What's not happening here? Do I connect with you? Do I not connect with you? Can I see your humanity? And I always go, if I see you as a person, which I do with most human beings on this earth, genuinely, I go like, I'll still find something to connect with you on. And so on the other side of it, when you ask me, like, how much does it change me? I genuinely listen. So a person almost only has to tell me once. And I will keep that because it means something. So when my friend said to me, my friend who's Jewish and spent time in Israel said, I didn't like that you said Jewish and Israel, but you conflated the two. And I was like, oh, okay, I will never do that again. But then when it comes to, like, arguing about whether or not it's an apartheid state, I said, you are my friend and I love you, but we're not going to agree on this. And I don't think we need to agree on this to remain friends. In fact, as my friend, I hope that you'll still keep me in your life, and I will work to keep you in my life, but I don't Want to lose you because of this thing. Because there's so many things that we're going to disagree on. This is just one of the biggest ones, you know, And I don't know, you know, whether it's just this moment in time or social media or. I don't know what it is, but I feel like people are like people have less and less ability now to maintain friendships or to maintain connections that also hold a space of disagreement or conflict.

[Neil Brennan]

It's the same thing. It's that thing about if I like, if I write haha to this text, you have this constituency in your head or imagined or whatever that I can't say disagree on this, but love you the same because then you'll lose your constituency.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And you see, for me, I don't think that moves us forward because I've always believed that people don't change by hanging out with people who are like them.

[Neil Brennan]

I agree.

[Trevor Noah]

I think we change by rubbing on each other, just rubbing off on each other. And I think the common humanity, that's why I come back to stand up. I think of the comedians I used to meet in comedy clubs, and I still, till this day, I mean everything racist, misogynistic, whatever you want to call it, but they were also human beings, you know what I mean? And I'm not excusing any of the things they did the same way. I'm sure someone wouldn't excuse some of the things I did or said as a person. You all have your faults, but the one thing that would connect us first and foremost is that we were comedians. You remember? We'd even say, as comedians, you'd be like, man, have you seen that guy's new bit? You'd be like, it is the most racist bit you've ever seen. But God, it's funny. And holding that paradox, holding that cognitive dissonance, I think was key to us. And you would see not all, but you would see a lot of the comedians evolve over time because society would evolve and you would shift and you would. And you'd find a lot of the comedians who were doing the jokes they were doing back in the day wouldn't do them anymore and they would evolve slowly.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

My objection to this primarily is like, it's fine when it's all like theoretical. We're working on jokes. That person's a bit racist, that person's a bit misogynistic. But we're living in a time where women currently can't get abortions in many ways, completely with it. So there's like real world implications, whether it's sexism, racism, transphobia. So I think it's, it's difficult because these people in our lives that have unsavory views, it feels like they're winning. I feel like the world is shifting to the right. I feel like the world is a scarier place. And that's like, just true. Like, you look at elections, you look at all of this stuff, and so it's like, it's harder for people to be like, well, I can, I can see you as a whole human being when your vote is the reason that, like, I was terrified to do IVFing Tech Texas because I was like, well, I'm a woman with a history of loss and if I need to get a dnc, will I be able to get one? Will a doctor give me one? Right. So there's like real world implications for like these controversial right wing or even like super far left ideas. And some people are like, I actually don't want to be around that in my personal life. And I don't blame them. Do you, do you know what I mean?

[Neil Brennan]

Of course. That's. I. In the two thoughts I had is it's a bit like being friends with two people who don't get along and you're like, ah, I was just with. You have lunch with somebody.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah. And then you go meet with the enemy.

[Neil Brennan]

And then you're like, yeah. And you're like, am I a piece of garbage? Both of these people have been good to me.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

And then the other thing I, the other thought I had was, does do jokes lead to action? If you make a joke, does that mean you stand with that? And that's where comedy comes in. Cause it's like, do I. I don't know. I can make a joke about anything. I don't stand with it. It just. My brain did that construction and I was like, this might be fun, but.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

If a comedian does their job properly and the joke is good enough, you won't get in trouble.

[Trevor Noah]

So I used to think that, but then I realized we've robbed the world of context, you know, and on one of the previous, one of our previous episodes here, when Yuval Noah was here, right Talk, the author of Sapiens and the Nexus, he said something that really stuck with me and it was, we are living in an age where we have more information than we've ever, ever, ever, ever, ever had in our lives. We have access to more information, but we don't have enough time to process it. And I think the problem with like Comedy now, let's say, or jokes even, is there's no context anymore.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, then even when Twitter began, the first people who followed comedians on Twitter and people all agree that this was a place where people are making jokes. They are not real things. Right. And then the context spread, the algorithm moved things around. Now you're sitting at home minding your own business, you are a super religious person. And then some video will come on your feed where someone's trashing religion, making jokes about it, and you're like, you get angry, but there's no context. You didn't want to see that you didn't ask to see. And that's. I think that's like one of my key issues with social media is the fact that people are not asking to see. They're not opting in in any way. You know, I feel like it should be like an opt in as opposed to an opt out. But people are seeing videos that they don't want to see, videos that are like, actively making them angrier, sadder, more afraid, et cetera. And I think that's actually hurting comedy and hurting the idea of comedy as opposed to it being or not being. Does that make sense?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But I also think, like, there's some things that people should be shamed. Listen, I like shame. I'm not like, blame.

[Trevor Noah]

You do love shame.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I like shame.

[Trevor Noah]

You love shame.

[Neil Brennan]

And I'm just like, it's one of my kinks.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Whether you're a comedian, whoever you are, I don't kink shame. Neil, I'm proud of you.

[Trevor Noah]

So the one place he doesn't shame is kink.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Neil Brennan]

Shame by guns.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

There's some things that if either way.

[Neil Brennan]

I have an erection, go ahead. Okay.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Neil. No, I'm just like, there's some things. If you say them, there could be consequences. Like, I know every time I say something, I'm something I'm trying to teach my kids, something I've ever had to learn the hard way is like, you say stuff, sometimes people get offended and there's going to be a backlash.

[Neil Brennan]

So you're correct in that civil rights are a little wobbly in certain respects. Right. But there's also people. There's a huge incentive to grievance. There's an incentive. The incentive to being in a conversation used to be somebody make a joke, you'd laugh. The incentive was to, like, be agreeable.

[Trevor Noah]

And be open to join.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

In some way.

[Neil Brennan]

And now the incentive is to take offense and to be like, ah, this is a chance for me to get all my picket signs out.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

And represent for my. My invisible constituents.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I agree. But I think we're also in a time for a lot of people where they feel there's a lot to be aggrieved about.

[Neil Brennan]

I agree.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So we just have to acknowledge that, like, people are constantly offended because the world is very offensive.

[Trevor Noah]

The issue I have with it is that is the getting offended. It is you on the other side of getting offended. And okay, I say this from the. Let's take comedy out of it for a moment. I think of language. So I speak many languages, as you know, Neil Brennan. And one of the things I love about speaking multiple languages is the fact that you learn how offensive the same thing is in another culture, in another language. You didn't change anything. You moved your hand in a different way. You did a thumbs up in one country and they're like, what did you say about my father? And you're like, wait, what? You put your hand under your chin in one country and they're like, what are you saying about my family?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Whichever. Don't you adjust?

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, listen.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's just in different contexts. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But that's because I've moved to places. Right. We are no longer moving. So we now live in a.

[Neil Brennan]

So there's nine different languages.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I mean. So we're no longer moving. Before, it made sense. I go to Dubai. When I'm in Dubai, I acknowledge I'm in the United Arab Emirates. I will respect the cultures and the laws accordingly. When I go to South Africa, I know my people. I will respect my people, and I will work accordingly. I do this everywhere in the world. But now I'm not going anywhere. You're not going anywhere. You're not going anywhere. You're at home tweeting your friend, tiktoking your people. You're not going anywhere. And then it takes you where the people don't agree with you. But you didn't go there. That's what I'm trying to say. And so the problem with offense is that everything is offensive to everyone if there is no context. So you can literally say something. You could say to your own grandparent, you'd be like, how old are you, granny? And they'll be like, 93. They're like, whoop, it's almost time. And your grandparent laughs. Ha ha ha.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You take that video, you put it on your own social media page for you and your few fans and your people, you might have 20 followers. For some reason, it sparks something. All of a Sudden, there's a delusion of people coming to you saying, how dare you? Do you know what ageism does to our culture? You're discarding. I don't care that they laugh. They probably laugh because they scared of you and you. And you're like, no, this is my grandparent. They taught me this humor. I'm laughing with them. For instance, I've seen comedians, and you've seen this. I've seen comedians who have disabilities. Deaf, blind, they have ms, cerebral palsy, whatever it is. They make a joke online. People don't know that they have that disability, and they just come off them. How could you?

[Neil Brennan]

How dare you?

[Trevor Noah]

Piece of trash, you. And then their fans come in and go like, excuse me, they have the disability. And the people are like, oh, I didn't know. Oh, I'm so old. Well, that's so funny. And I'm like, what just changed? Yeah, nothing has changed. Your context and the way you saw the thing changed. And so I do agree with you. Yes, words have consequences. Yes. But I think we should never take for granted our participation in some of these ideas where we are choosing to get angry on some of it. We are choosing to take it like. And make it like. Personally, I do this in my life with my friends, with my people. I encourage people to just. It's almost like filtering. Focus on the things that you should actually be angry about. Because there's a lot of things that actually. It's like, oh, you just. You just misinterpreted it. You really just misinterpreted it. It's a different perspective, different language, different culture, different vibe, different story, and it actually doesn't spoil your life. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by SurveyMonkey. The world is always changing and totally unpredictable, which is fun unless you're trying to run a business. So if you want to build a product people actually love, keep your customers happy and stop your team from setting their status to emotionally unavailable. Well, you've got to understand what people are really thinking. And to do that, you need to dare to ask the questions that really matter. Luckily, SurveyMonkey makes it super easy to ask the right questions that'll drive your business forward. In fact, SurveyMonkey answers 20 million questions every single day for over 300,000 organizations around the globe. Get answers to your Questions go to surveymonkey.com dare this episode is brought to you by Starbucks. No matter how you celebrate the holidays, there is one thing I think we can all Share in the magic of Starbucks holiday beverages. Whether it's a Starbucks peppermint mocha, an iced sugar cookie almond milk latte, or the new Cranmerry orange refresher. Whatever festive flavor you choose, Starbucks is here to make every moment special. This holiday season. For me, it's as if every sip of Starbucks is a small, magical escape. There's nothing like sharing a moment of joy with my friends and family over Starbucks. So go on, feel the magic. Order your favorite holiday beverage on the Starbucks app today. I don't know what the solution to this is, but I still go back to my belief that the solution doesn't lie in people siloing themselves. I believe, as Trevor, this person has no incentive and will never even shift a little bit if I'm not in their life. And I will never see their perspective if I'm not in their life.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Trevor, you have that Kumbaya Mandela style.

[Trevor Noah]

But it's not Kumbaya.

[Neil Brennan]

Get out of. No, but it's something, you jive turkey.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, no, I'm saying. Ok. Trevor hired me because I was on Twitter talking shit about the Daily Show. That's how we met. That's the type of person.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's not why. You see, the why was wrong.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Wait, but. Wait, no, but you came across my tweets. You were like, yes. Oh, this person really disagrees with what I'm doing at the Daily Show. He found me interesting. My mind. But no, but I'm complimenting you. He's the type of guy that we, like. See those tweets? You know what? You know, I'm a hire that bitch. That is Trevor. Like, he just is.

[Neil Brennan]

That's a direct quote.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But it's like, even the way he had his writers room and look at.

[Trevor Noah]

Where we are now. You were part of helping me win an Emmy. You were part of helping make the show the best thing it's ever been.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'm like, I don't know how you hold that. It's something I really admire as someone who can be very tribal, actually, politically, my friends are all over the place.

[Neil Brennan]

Have you changed in any way? That's what I'm saying.

[Trevor Noah]

She definitely has.

[Neil Brennan]

I've changed my opinion about lots of stuff.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, he's changed.

[Neil Brennan]

Do I completely disregard that version of.

[Trevor Noah]

So can I just say something about both of you real quick as your friend? Both of you. I've seen both of you change because of me. And both of you have changed me because you're in my life. So, Christiana, I've watched you Become funnier and looser. As a person, in the time that I've known you, like, I've literally watched you. So I like what you said, but with the Twitter thing, yes, you were trash talking me and trash talking the Daily show and everything. But more importantly, I saw somebody who was super smart. Really, like, the way you saw the world and the way you, like, understood ideas and what you brought in and your journalistic brain. I was like, damn, this is amazing. I didn't. I wasn't hiring people on Twitter who were just like, trevor Noah, you suck. Go back your country. I wasn't like, yeah, this person needs to come to the Daily Show. Yeah, it's not about that. I'm able to look.

[Neil Brennan]

They already worked there. Go ahead.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm able to look at the thing that lies beneath. How you respond to me.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, I admire it.

[Trevor Noah]

And so, like. So when I look at the two of you, you've become funnier, like, more chill, more everything. Right? Neil, let me tell you something. When I met Neil Brennan, so I'll take you on a little journey. When I met Neil Brennan for the very first time, I was on Twitter. And this was the good old days of Twitter, where people were just making jokes. There was nothing serious on it. It was just jokes.

[Neil Brennan]

Christina came and made it on Friday. Go ahead.

[Trevor Noah]

And there was just jokes. And I remember Neil had really funny jokes on Twitter. And I was like, this guy's funny. And I followed him, and then it said, co creator of Chappelle Show. And I was like, wait, what? And I went in and I hadn't even, like, watched the Chappelle show in that way. I never had cable. I couldn't afford it. All these things, sob story, whatever.

[Neil Brennan]

Copper roof.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you know how it is. You know how it is. Whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tough life. Let's keep it moving. But I then went and I watched the show, and then I saw the first sketch, the Black White Supremacist. And then you're in the back there and, like, your head explodes. And. But then I, like, started. I was like, damn, this guy's funny. And he's. He's just been in everything that I love. So I follow him on Twitter, and now I just love his jokes. And then I come to America for the first time doing, like, random shows, and I meet him at the Comedy Store in Los Angeles, and I'm walking through the corridors there, very dark, very.

[Neil Brennan]

Like, sad, satanic energy.

[Trevor Noah]

It really is. And I walked in and I saw his face, and I was like, wait a minute. I was like, neil Brennan. And he. I was like, I know you. He's like, doesn't everyone?

[Neil Brennan]

Were you from another country?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. It was very, like. It was very, like.

[Neil Brennan]

I was like, wow, smoke a cigarette.

[Trevor Noah]

And I was like, what? And I was like. I was like, yeah, hey, nice to meet you. I was like, I love you. I follow you on Twitter. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Neil was, like, very dismissive. Neil was like, ah, okay. Whatever, man. And, like, just very, like, you know, leaning against the wall. Like, it's almost like a scene from Grease, but without the leather. J. Just like leaning on the wall and just like, whatever, kid. Keep it moving. And I walk. I walked in, I went to do my set or something, and then when I was walking out, Neil goes like, hey, wait a minute.

[Neil Brennan]

Where you from back here?

[Trevor Noah]

He's like, where you from? And I was like, I'm from South Africa. And he's like, are you the guy? He's like, you followed me? I was like, yeah, I follow you. He's like, you're the reason I've got people. What did you say? You said, you're the reason I've got people with exclamation marks in their names following me. That's what Neil said.

[Neil Brennan]

Neil was like, one day.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you said, like, one day I was on my Twitter clicks and it was just like Brad and Jenny following me.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then the next day it was like.

[Neil Brennan]

And I was like, yes, terrifying.

[Trevor Noah]

And I was like, that's my friend Kolisa, probably. I told him about your tweets and. And that's how we meet.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Neil was like. And I hope you don't mind me saying, but like, Neil was. I mean, you were grumpy. You were just like, the world is.

[Neil Brennan]

Like, everything is bad.

[Trevor Noah]

Energetically dark, always. Just like, everything is shit. And. God, what are you talking. No religion. And just like. And why are you smiling? He used to hate that I smiled. He's like, are you serious? Neil would even say to me sometimes, like, what are you so happy about, Neil?

[Neil Brennan]

I don't think. I said. He said, I may have energetically said it.

[Trevor Noah]

He said, no, he said it. He said it. He said, what are you so happy about? In fact. In fact, he has a fun story. Neil. And I've told this story before somewhere, I'm sure, but maybe with you. But like, Neil, I remember you and I were sitting in a random. It wasn't even a diner. I don't know what it was.

[Neil Brennan]

It was a diner.

[Trevor Noah]

It was a diner.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

In Denver, Neil was doing the improv.

[Neil Brennan]

I think I was doing the comedy Work.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. The comedy works. So we're having a late, late, late dinner after this, like, you know, midnight type thing. We've both done our shows. And then classic Neil with his cynicism. You know, Neil's like, how was your weekend? Did you make enough money to barely pay for your flights and your food, you idiot.

[Neil Brennan]

You African fool?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And I was like, yeah, because we made no money.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Basically, as a comedian, you were lucky if you came home with a little money from the road.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You're just breaking even.

[Trevor Noah]

That's bailey.

[Neil Brennan]

This is 12 years ago. This isn't, like, forever ago.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. This is 12 years ago. And at some point, Neil turns to me and he goes, what are you doing here?

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, man. He's like, I've seen your life in South Africa. He's like, why are you doing this? He's like, go home. People love you.

[Neil Brennan]

To go back to.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, he told me to go back to where I came from. And he's like, these people. People love you. Then you're doing arenas. He's like, here, you. You're in a comedy club where people came in for free, and they don't know you. They don't even like you. And he's like, why? He's like, america. He's like, america's not ready for. What did you say? America's not ready for someone.

[Neil Brennan]

America don't like foreign comedians.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You were like, americans don't like foreign comedians. And then we went through a list, and he wasn't wrong.

[Neil Brennan]

He's like, Ricky Gervais, the only one who made an impact, and they made.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

A show, but they made Americans do a show.

[Trevor Noah]

And then Neil said this to me, and we had this discussion back and forth for a while, back and forth for a while. And I was like, oh. And I took it in a good way. I was like, you know what, Neil? I was like, thank you.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

What?

[Trevor Noah]

Like, wonderful. You're such a good friend. He's like, I don't even know if I'm your friend. We're just in the same city. But I always. And I've always seen this, you know, I've always said that. I was always like, what a sweet, loving guy. I was like, this is a sweet, loving human being who has been hurt by something and someone in the world, and now he wears, like, a little shell on the outside.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

The same way I see you. The Same way I see everyone. Genuinely.

[Neil Brennan]

We see past all this, Christiana, to the real you.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I don't like to be seen, by the way.

[Trevor Noah]

So I was like, this guy's a nice. Because I think I meet people sometimes who are very nice. And I go, this person is an asshole, and I do not want to know them as a human being. They will burn your life down if they get the chance. And then I meet people who are prickly, and I'm like, you. You're a good person. You know, you hide.

[Neil Brennan]

I'd also like to say that once John Oliver made it, I called him.

[Trevor Noah]

This was really funny.

[Neil Brennan]

And said, okay, you can come back.

[Trevor Noah]

No joke.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I stand corrected.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

He literally phoned me.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And I was in South Africa.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes. I go, all right, you can come back. Because there was no. It was kind of pointless.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But my point is, when did he get sweeter? I'm.

[Trevor Noah]

But this is what I'm saying.

[Neil Brennan]

I got sweeter over time, especially in the last five years.

[Trevor Noah]

What happened?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

What made you.

[Trevor Noah]

I remember telling you about therapy, and you were like, you didn't tell me about therapy. No, I remember talking to you about therapy. You were like, did you go to therapy?

[Neil Brennan]

I've been going to therapy since I was 23.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but now you went into it once.

[Neil Brennan]

Trevor told me about it.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you know what I mean. You opened your heart, Neil.

[Neil Brennan]

I opened my heart from Ayahuasca and DMT and mdma. I'm sorry, I don't know how.

[Trevor Noah]

Who did you tell about religion? Who did you call when you said, like, I now believe there might be a God?

[Neil Brennan]

You were one of the first people I believe I called.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Really?

[Neil Brennan]

Yep. So. Cause I knew he'd like it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But you know what, Trevor, back to you.

[Trevor Noah]

Because Trevor, you don't know, but you see, he cared.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Trevor doesn't like to speak about himself.

[Trevor Noah]

He even cared that I would love.

[Neil Brennan]

I remember what people are into. I was like, oh, my God.

[Trevor Noah]

Which is a nice. That's what I mean. That's what. And I genuinely.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, I never was a jerk. I seemed. I seemed jerky, was kind.

[Trevor Noah]

That's my point.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But, Trevor, the thing about you, because you don't like talking about yourself, but I want to make it about you that I find remarkable, and I'm still learning, is that you. And I think it shows in your fans, in your life, you're able to have, like, this big tent where loads of different people can come in, and you never feel uncomfortable, like you could just live in difference and tension. And maybe that's because of your childhood.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's because of my childhood, but.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

In a way that I'm still not there yet.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, but you were lucky. You grew up, like, first of all, you're Nigerian, so you've always had, like, your people.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then also, like, your family and you. I've grown up as a singular. You know what I mean? I was and still am the only person in my family who even looks like me. Obviously, you can find features in my parents. You'd be, oh, I see. But no, my mother's a different color to me. My father's a different color to me. We look, we are different people. And in the family, I'm a different person. And do you get what I'm saying?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So does that make you feel, like, lonely or you just.

[Trevor Noah]

No, it was the opposite. Funny enough, it didn't make me feel lonely because I don't spend all the time looking at myself, which is great.

[Neil Brennan]

It's interesting that you say, like, you. Or maybe you said it like that you. Because of that, you are, like, kind of tribeless in terms of nobody looks like you. Nobody. So the whole everyone's your tribe. You could take it as a. As a prescription to be lonely.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

Or you take it as, like, oh, all right. Well, I guess I'm everybody.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. No, I was always just like, oh, you know, because it was the only way I was. And I think most importantly, my tight nucleus treated me as the in. So it's not like my cousins treated me strange. It's not my grandmother, my mother, my nobody in my circle. I was Trevor. Fully, fully, just Trevor. And then because I understand other people's languages, I would find a way to get in quickly. And then my friends, very quick. I mean, till this day, you all know my friends, but they just treat me like me. So I don't even look down and be like, my skin is different to theirs. No, I don't do that. And so let me ask you this. Why do you think. I'd love to know why do you think, as Neil, you were always more comfortable and more honest in black spaces than most white people?

[Neil Brennan]

I never. I've just never been that racist.

[Trevor Noah]

Now that you say that.

[Neil Brennan]

No, because everybody's racist.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I'm just thinking about.

[Neil Brennan]

It's just a matter of degree. So I've just never been that racist. I had access because one of my brothers who worked at the Wrigley Field and all of his co workers were black. They were always so nice to me. Eddie. Eddie. Michael Jordan, Spike Lee, Arsenio.

[Trevor Noah]

Right?

[Neil Brennan]

I mean, this is like a creepy story. I'm like nine, right? Nine years old. I used to have to. Eddie's on Saturday Night Live. I used to have to run. My parents would get home. I used to have to run upstairs to hide that I wasn't watching it. Right. Because they'd get home, and I suppose I'm nine. I'm supposed to be in bed. At a certain point, I say to my mom, hey, you need to let me watch Saturday Night Live. It's important. I remember being nine and going, what are you talking about? It's important. Again, it's not even like, I'm so saintly. It's just like. It's stupid. It's just like.

[Trevor Noah]

It's illogical.

[Neil Brennan]

It's illogical. It's like you and I immediately, I was like, oh, I think I know what you're like. I don't care about. I don't care about your anything. It's like, I know what you're fucking. You're a very opinionated person. Like, okay, I'll see you at the next argument. Like, there's no. So it's just. It's not. I don't know. I just never really bought that into it in terms of, like, a social construction.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't even.

[Neil Brennan]

It's.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You just were like, this is the person.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. I don't know. It's also just access, like, the most of sexism, racism. It's just all these separations that we deal with. It's like, if. What would I. If I was in your experience, what conclusions would I come to? If I was in yours, what conclusions would I come to? It's assuming that people are coming to conclusions for the same logic that I come to conclusions about. And not. If I were black, I'm mad as a white person. So imagine what I'd be like in my life.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And if I was a white man, I'd be so fucking rich.

[Neil Brennan]

You can imagine.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'd be like, I say to my husband all the time, man.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

If they made me look like one of your friends, I'd be kidding it right now.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. So, like, I don't.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm sensing a movie here, guys. Yeah, but he wanted to be a black woman.

[Neil Brennan]

Someone dropped one.

[Trevor Noah]

She wanted to be a white man.

[Neil Brennan]

Someone dropped one of these lights on our head.

[Trevor Noah]

They made podcasts.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. So I don't. I think it's just theory of mind. It's like, what would it. I don't know. It's just assuming that someone's going to think the same things you would think. But if you were in that situation.

[Trevor Noah]

So you see, I come back to what I was saying now about sharing space with people. I listened to your story and just listening to what you said, because of your brother, you went to a place where all of his co workers were black. At Wrigley Field, you're now associating and seeing black people in their fullness, in their completeness. It is a lot harder to be racist to black people when you know black persons. It's a lot harder. Cause you're like, no, I know Dave and I know Steve and I know Daquan, and I know, like, I know people. I know some are like this. I know some are not like this. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You then go, you. Now you're also in comedy. Then you're in Chappelle show again. Now you're experiencing black people from all different walks of life. Everyone from most deaf and Taliban.

[Neil Brennan]

I also think it's good personal experiences. Meaning, like, Dave was. I don't know, we just got along. We were like, close. We were like in exactly close. At the same age. 18, 19. He was nice. He gave me an opportunity to write half baked with him. A lot of this is like, I feel it is like recompense for the opportunities that I've been given by Dave specifically. And then I take. I give, like, black people all credit for that. A bunch of meaning, like, okay, I'll try to hire as many black people as I can, because I can't because white person hired me. I kind of have to, morally. I have to. If I believe in any sort of moral framework, I have to try to not be that racist.

[Trevor Noah]

When you became more spiritual, I'd love to know. Like you and I many years ago on the Daily show, even, we talked about depression and how it affects people differently. And this is before I knew I had adhd. And then I was like, oh, mine's not like depression. It's just a byproduct of ADHD at times. I want to know from you, what do you think some of the biggest blocks were to you figuring it out? You know, in one special, you're joking about wearing a device on your arm that electrocutes you to remind you to smile and seem more affable. Yeah, this is a real thing.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes. And then it zaps me and I smile. Yeah, that's the COVID art on Netflix is me fake smiling from being zapped.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But then now you Smile more as a person. You just generally. What do you think was the. And it's not the. Let's start with the thing that you did, but tell me what you discovered that shifted you out from under the cloud.

[Neil Brennan]

It's the. I mean, it's very. Danger. Ayahuasca 5meo DMT and then MDMA. It's. I wouldn't recommend it because it's like it. The 5meo DMT. I, like, kind of lost my mind for a couple of days, but I. Those in. In sequentially. That's how I did them. That's. And they work for me.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Did you do. Under guidance or just.

[Neil Brennan]

I mean. I mean, not. Yeah, there's like a person there, but like, they don't. They don't. They're not. There's like. There are tribes on the Amazon who have a lot of experience and hundreds and thousands of years of sort of how to deal with certain things. And then there's people that I dealt with that they mean well.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Neil, I'm curious, right? Because anytime I see you, you're working. I've never seen you, like, in a. Because you don't want to hang out with black women, obviously. So, like, I've never seen you socially. So, like. So, like. No, I'm curious. What does your depression look like? Because, like, you know, there's always this image of like, in bed, I can't work, I don't shower.

[Neil Brennan]

Oh. I was never. Well, I was always trying to. I tried to work my way out of it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay, so that's why you always sleep.

[Neil Brennan]

My way out of it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. Like, if I could get an achievement, which I think we've talked about before, it's like, you get an achievement, you get a kind of a adrenaline spike that you take for good feeling, or you get an ego boost, which you take for good feeling, and then you kind of just like. And then it wears off. You're like, I got to do something else.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Neil Brennan]

And that's what they call a career. Okay. So. But yeah, the. So I did all that stuff. It more. It's. It's more a matter of changing my relationship to the facts of my life. Meaning I'm incredibly lucky. I used to think I was unlucky.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you did.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

That's crazy.

[Neil Brennan]

I really thought I was unlucky. I really thought I was, like, reason for grievance. And then I realized, like, no, now I have a new idea, which is like, life isn't fair. No one's life should be as good as mine. Like, I was dead wrong about what I thought was happening. Even the things that I thought were negative were positive. And it is like a.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Everything was your friend.

[Neil Brennan]

It's all been good, and it's all been to my favor, even if it's in the. I sent you that thing the other day about. It's a Buddhist story about, like. Yeah, you never know. You never know what something means. Chappelle show ends. I'm like, I never would be a comedian if it didn't end. Like, all these things that I think were negative were positive just in a different timeframe. So that's the biggest takeaway is that, like, changing my relationship to the facts of my life. And I do a thing where I literally write the facts of my life down several times a day. Oh, wow.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Like, journal it.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. But I call it a checklist to make it masculine, because Journal. But I call it, like, a checklist of, like, the facts of my life. Like, you are this. You are this. You are this. You are this. You've got to do this. You got to do, like, this is incredible. Just enjoy yourself. I think that's a good advice for anything. It's like, I can stay mad all the time in this situation, or I can take this as an opportunity for whatever, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

And so for me, it goes back to what we were saying about offense. It lives in the same world. I think in everything I'm hearing you saying, the facts didn't change. You know, your house, your car, your life, your job, your friends, your opportunities that didn't change. Your relation to them changed. Your relationship to them changed. And that's what I think about, funny enough, with genuinely how we see the world a lot of the time, whether it's, you know, things online that offend us, people that make us angry, stories. A lot of the time, it's just your relationship to it is acknowledging the fact is it has happened or you're seeing it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But now what is my relationship to it? And just shifting that lets you off the hook from feeling like you're wearing a weighted vest. That's what I hear you say.

[Neil Brennan]

Oh, it's incredibly hard.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, I think that.

[Neil Brennan]

But even, like, being a mom, I'm sure is, like, really tries your patience.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

And you could occupy that space of, like, just being aggravated all the time, which I think a lot of parents did for a long time. Or you can just be like, eh, it's. It's. I'm gonna feel this way, and I have to figure out how to deal with it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah. I Mean, I just like surrender.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, that's the. Yeah. Then my girlfriend says that all the time. It's the most zen thing in the world. It's just like I have a four year old, they're going to be four until he's five and then they're going to be fine. And he's going to be fine. Yeah. So. Yeah. Which is his own. And just like the surrender and the acceptance of like, this is what it is. I can either look at it and have my fist balled up all the time or I can just be like, okay, this is. I'm here, I'm here. I might as well enjoy it. Which is the corniest tritest.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Which is scary.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I know.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I like to strive. I love striving.

[Trevor Noah]

But I think life is a balance between the two. I think if we live only in the moment, we neglect.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. People that live in the moment, it should be noted, are incredibly boring.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Honestly, I think it's about finding a balance that's hard and it's almost two ideas. It's almost impossible because it's like how you look at it, how you choose to relate to it, how you move through and sometimes you're not choosing it actively. But that's how I, that's how I understand.

[Neil Brennan]

As Neil Brennan, a bunch of stuff was falling on me and then I just tried to make it fall on me in a different way and that like. Yeah. And I'm incredibly lucky. I would argue most people hearing this are incredibly lucky in that like you probably have enough money, all the things, the infrastructure that is in place for you to have Spotify.

[Trevor Noah]

Have Spotify or any way you get your podcast.

[Neil Brennan]

Fantastic.

[Trevor Noah]

Yo, Neil, this was. Every time I speak to you, it's a joy. But this was extra special. Thank you for joining us. If someone has to watch one of your specials now, which one do you want?

[Neil Brennan]

They watch Crazy Good.

[Trevor Noah]

Crazy Good.

[Neil Brennan]

Most recent one. Yeah. All right. It's kind of most timely joke.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, for me, I think of it like, like Star Wars. Go watch the trilogy.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

If you watch three mics and you watch Blocks and then you watch Crazy Good, you will know this Neil Brennan and you will see the full.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. You will see it so different in my. Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Because the last time I saw you was before Trevor quit the show. Three years I haven't met this Neil and it's good, good vibe. Well, you know, you got that dad energy in a good way. I can tell he's with a four year old. No, I can tell you because you're like being with a four year old kind of does something to you and you're like, yeah, just fight with him.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Who is this?

[Neil Brennan]

Neil?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, I like.

[Neil Brennan]

I fight. I fight children.

[Trevor Noah]

We'll save that for another episode. Neil. Thank you so much, man.

[Neil Brennan]

Thanks for having me. Bye.

[Trevor Noah]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.