Katie Couric: Is Objectivity Dead?

Summary

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What Now? with Trevor Noah

Episode: Katie Couric: Is Objectivity Dead?

Date: May 7, 2026
Guests: Katie Couric
Host: Trevor Noah
Cohost: Eugene

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Episode Overview

This episode brings together legendary journalist Katie Couric and Trevor Noah, joined by Eugene, for a candid, playful, and often philosophical examination of the state of journalism, objectivity, and democracy today. Through the lens of Katie’s storied career and Trevor’s global perspective, the conversation unpacks whether journalistic objectivity is still tenable, how media fragmentation shapes public discourse, and what a healthy democracy really demands from both citizens and the press. The result is a wide-ranging, deeply human, and often humorous exploration of truth, trust, systems, and the messy business of being informed.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shape and Evolution of News (05:21–09:49)

• Katie Couric’s Multi-Platform Work: Katie describes how she toggles between Substack, podcasting, newsletters, and Instagram “explainers” to meet audiences where they are. She notes, “There’s so much information assaulting people every minute that sometimes I just try to say, ‘Hey, this is what [a bill or act] does.’” (05:58)
• Importance of Explainers: Trevor and Katie agree that the deluge of information makes clarity more important than ever.
  • Trevor: “There’s too much of everything, everywhere, all the time... people have too much information.” (06:41)

2. Trust in News & The “Golden Age” (07:41–09:49)

• Golden Age of U.S. News: Katie recalls the “Walter Cronkite era” — trusted, authoritative figures, albeit lacking in diversity. She references LBJ’s quote, “If we’ve lost Walter Cronkite, we’ve lost America.” (08:18)
• Fragmentation: Katie highlights the evolution from that trust-dominated news landscape to today’s bifurcated, ideological cable news arms race.

3. Comparing U.S. and South African Media (09:49–13:41)

• South Africa's System: Trevor and Eugene explain the SABC model, modeled after the BBC—publicly funded and not ideologically split.
  • Trevor: “In most places I’ve been... your news presents different realities. That’s something I don’t see in most places.” (13:31)
• U.S. News and “Alternate Realities”: The American media landscape is contrasted:
  • Trevor: “Perspectives would almost be like... The Artemis rocket has taken off... [In the U.S.], it’s like: the rocket has taken off—‘There’s no rocket.’” (14:09)

4. The “Cult of Personality” in Politics (15:22–18:14)

• Trump’s Base: Discussion on the “cult of personality” around Trump, with supporters separating the man from his actions.
  • Katie: “That’s why they call it the cult of personality. They don’t call it the cult of policy.” (15:55)
• Sportsification/Tribalism: Trevor observes, “Politics has become the way sports is... you have a team, you stick to that team forever.” (18:22)

5. Identity, Loyalty, and Changing Minds (18:47–22:40)

• Why Sticking To Teams Feels Safer: Both Katie and Trevor reflect on how politics has become identity (“an assault to their whole identity”) making change or nuance difficult.
• Journalistic Objectivity vs. Citizen Outrage: Katie admits, “I have become a citizen first now and a journalist second, because I feel like it is such a perilous time.” (23:36)
• Corporate Influence on Newsrooms: Katie describes the shifting (and more conflicted) relationships between corporate interests, news divisions, and political power. (25:33)

6. Rethinking Democracy and Political Accountability (30:12–47:33)

• Failures of Accountability:
  • Trevor: “One of the strange things about democracy is you’re buying something you do not yet have and you’ve never tested…there’s no mechanism to hold politicians accountable for the thing they said they were going to do.” (31:13)
• Imagining New Systems: The group floats ideas for more direct, continuous or issue-based voting, with technology or “ala carte” choices powered by AI for clarity.
• Expertise in Government: Trevor and Katie agree those appointed to governmental roles should have relevant expertise. (60:14)

7. Journalism Under Threat: Access, Misinformation, and Legacy (66:24–77:57)

• Reporting Constraints: Katie describes increasing challenges for journalists’ access, especially at the Pentagon—more bureaucracy, less access, greater risk for sources.
• Dilution by Social Media: Katie and Eugene resent the way deep, investigative journalism gets diluted, plagiarized, or buried under misinformation on social media, though Katie remains optimistic about quality journalism's ripple effect. (73:10)

8. Free Speech vs. Public Interest (75:28–80:49)

• Weighing National Security: Katie reflects that there’s a real, case-by-case tension between the public's right to know and national security; she wishes she had more historic examples at hand and values caution.
  • Trevor: “As a journalist... how do you weigh free speech versus what you may perceive as the interests of the country?” (75:28)

9. The Messy Art of Being Informed (84:18–129:50)

• Blurred Lines: Katie resists thinking of herself as two different people, but acknowledges her advocacy (e.g., for colon cancer awareness) has intersected with journalism.
  • “I don’t even know how to answer that question. I am a person, and I’m a journalist.” (85:18)
• Coping with the News: The constant stream can be overwhelming—even for pros.
  • Katie: “If you check out for a day, you missed a war.” (86:41)
• COVID, Science, & Trust: The group discusses the CDC’s handling of the COVID vaccine data, Trump’s role, and the demonization of experts. Katie is particularly passionate about defending science, lamenting, “Everyone is an expert now. Everyone has an opinion. And then... everyone’s opinion holds the same weight, but it doesn’t.” (110:53)
• Embracing Doubt: Trevor notes, “The people who... are the most well versed... also operate with higher levels of doubt than everyone else. An expert is somebody who knows so much that they know how little they know.” (128:34)
• Journalism as Public Service:
  • Katie: “I want to be of service to democracy in any way I can and to the values that I hold dear: scientific discovery and advancement, the rule of law, you know, expertise.” (108:20)
  • She’s developing a documentary, “Back in the Day,” about journalism’s evolution and the danger of “truth decay.” (114:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“There’s so much information assaulting people every minute that sometimes I just try to say, ‘Hey, this is what the SAVE Act does.’”
– Katie Couric (05:58)

“In the U.S., what’s different is your news presents different realities. That’s something that I don’t see in most places.”
– Trevor Noah (13:31)

“That’s why they call it the cult of personality. They don’t call it the cult of policy.”
– Katie Couric (15:55)

“Politics has become the way sports is, in that you have a team, you stick to that team forever.”
– Trevor Noah (18:22)

“I have become a citizen first now and a journalist second, because I feel like it is such a perilous time...”
– Katie Couric (23:36)

“One of the strange things about democracy is you’re buying something you do not yet have and you’ve never tested… there’s no mechanism to hold politicians accountable for the thing they said they were going to do.”
– Trevor Noah (31:13)

“I think the democratization of media means that everyone thinks everyone’s opinion holds the same weight, but it doesn’t.”
– Katie Couric (110:53)

“The people who ...are the most well versed... also operate with higher levels of doubt than everyone else. An expert is somebody who knows so much that they know how little they know.”
– Trevor Noah (128:34)

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Important Timestamps

• [05:21] – Katie on being multi-platform & the need for “explainers”
• [08:18] – Reflections on trust & Cronkite era of news
• [13:31] – Trevor on U.S. media’s parallel realities
• [15:55] – “Cult of personality” and Trump
• [18:22] – Sportsification/tribalism in U.S. politics
• [23:36] – Katie identifies as a “citizen first, journalist second”
• [31:13] – The “buy now, pay later” weirdness of democracy
• [60:14] – Should only experts run departments? All agree: “Yes.”
• [73:10] – Katie on media dilution and ProPublica’s ICE investigation
• [75:28] – National security vs. the public’s right to know
• [85:18] – Katie on balancing humanity and journalism
• [110:53] – “Everyone thinks everyone’s opinion holds the same weight, but it doesn’t.”
• [128:34] – Trevor extols the humility of real expertise
• [114:32] – Katie describes her upcoming documentary on journalism, “Back in the Day”

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Tone and Character

• Playful Banter: The episode is laced with jokes, callbacks, and good-natured debate—Trevor in particular is both probing and self-deprecating.
• Radical Candor & Honesty: Katie is forthright about her biases, her evolution from “objective journalist” to “citizen advocate,” and where she is still learning.
• Philosophical & Deeply Human: The group deconstructs thorny topics with nuance, regularly pausing to admit what they don’t know or to change course.
• Hopeful, but Clear-eyed: While everyone sounds the alarm about fragmentation, misinformation, and declining trust in expertise, the conversation remains fundamentally optimistic about the role of committed, ethical journalism and engaged citizenship.

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Concluding Reflections

In her closing thoughts, Katie Couric doubles down on the urgency of real journalism and the importance of embracing doubt, nuanced learning, and expert guidance—both in the newsroom and in democracy at large. Trevor thanks her, noting how much of what people “think they know” still traces back to the hard work of dedicated journalists, and urges listeners to value that messy, imperfect—but essential—public service.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This installment of “What Now?” is essential listening for anyone interested in the fate of journalism, the future of democracy, and how our media diets shape what we believe—and who we trust. Katie Couric’s humility, experience, and candor, combined with Trevor Noah’s wit and global perspective, make for an illuminating conversation about why objectivity may be impossible, but truth certainly isn’t.

Transcript

[Katie Couric]

Who is doing the news in South Africa.

[Trevor Noah]

So in South Africa, there's the South African Broadcasting Corporation, which is similar to the BBC, right? In that it's state funded.

[Eugene]

Modeled off the BBC.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's modeled off the BBC and then it's state funded. People pay a fee, you know, for having a tv, it's like a nominal fee. And that basically goes to funding it and their reporting. Then we have a few independent stations as well, but none of them have

[Katie Couric]

a clear ideological benchmark.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. That would be. I think most people agree. That would be crazy. Like, we wouldn't. We just.

[Katie Couric]

Like there's not. The pro apartheid network.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, my goodness, Katie, can you imagine? The pro apartheid network. Oh, my goodness. What a great idea.

[Katie Couric]

The Pan. Hi, we're welcome to. Oh, wow.

[Eugene]

You are my replacement. Oh, wow.

[Trevor Noah]

What a fantastic premise. This is what now with Trevor Noah. All right, Eugene, let's play a little game. You know, make something fun. Two truths and a lie. Here we go. One, I've had to tell a world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon customer for 11 years. What do you think?

[Eugene]

Very confused. First of all, why would a world leader own a fly? Because those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to your friends is not cool. There's never been a game.

[Trevor Noah]

No, Eugene, fly is for like the zip is what? And then it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm trying. It's like I give you information. Okay, I lied. All three are true, Eugene. And in case you were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your AT&T or T mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the reason I've been with them for this long is just because I travel so much. I need a network that's reliable. That's right. A better deal on the best network with the most ways to save on plans, streaming and phone deals. Take your AT&T or T mobile bill to your local Verizon store today. Get your better deal and start saving for real. Based on RootMetric's best overall mobile network performance. US Second Half 2025 all rights reserved. You must provide recent consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply. So do you understand how two truths. And do you understand it now?

[Eugene]

I understand that you didn't have to lie first before telling me that Verizon is the best.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I wasn't lying, Eugene. It's not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a game. Okay, I'm sorry I lied. Ah.

[Katie Couric]

What's a booster? Somebody that steal clothes from a store

[Trevor Noah]

and sell at a discount price.

[Katie Couric]

It's like community service.

[Eugene]

I Love Boosters is the must see

[Trevor Noah]

movie of the song, starring Peke Palmer

[Eugene]

and Demi Moore in a crazy heist

[Trevor Noah]

comedy set in the cutthroat fashion world.

[Katie Couric]

The Velvet Gang. They're boosting from my stores.

[Trevor Noah]

Critics are hailing I Love Boosters as wildly hilarious and outrageous, provocative and really fun.

[Katie Couric]

Come on, let's take all of it.

[Trevor Noah]

I love Boosters.

[Eugene]

Rated r. In theaters May 22nd.

[Trevor Noah]

Get tickets now.

[Katie Couric]

Oh, this is so fun.

[Eugene]

Yesterday we wore. Both wore cardigans.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

What a fashion disaster.

[Trevor Noah]

It was terrible.

[Katie Couric]

Was it?

[Trevor Noah]

Well, it wasn't a disaster. It was more. No, it looked too coordinated.

[Katie Couric]

Oh, very Mr. Rogers.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. Yes. Double Mr. Rogers.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Eugene]

So I was like, no, it will never happen again. So today I had a backup plan. I was like, if he's wearing brown, I'm covered.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, you're gonna switch it out. Okay.

[Katie Couric]

I really like that jacket.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know why.

[Katie Couric]

You both do kind of have a similar thing going.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm. He's trying to avoid me, and I'm trying. I'm trying to fully, fully line up with him. I'm trying to make sure that our. Our friendship is fully aligned. That's what I'm looking for. I don't want him to be able to escape me. I want people to be like, are you guys twins? That's how closely aligned I want our dress sense to be.

[Katie Couric]

How often do you record your podcast?

[Trevor Noah]

Whenever.

[Katie Couric]

Whenever?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Yeah, whenever is whenever. So, you know, we'll fly in from South Africa and then we'll do a bunch of episodes and we'll come in. But then sometimes we're doing them, you know, like one spaced out and then it's. But it's whenever.

[Katie Couric]

You don't feel that you need to have a specific cadence for, like to necessarily.

[Trevor Noah]

What's your cadence now in life? What do you.

[Katie Couric]

Well, we do sort of a tranche of them, if you will. You know. Tranche. I like that word. We have sort of, you know, when does a season. But then we're not really doing seasons as much because I'm really responding mostly to news as it happens. So. You know, it's funny, you guys, Cause I. Every platform I do different stuff.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I've seen that.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. You know, you have to be kind of multi platform. So like tomorrow I'm doing a substack show.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. Which I do once a week. And then I do the podcast, slash videocast and then, you know. Yeah, I think that's primary. Then we have a newsletter and. And sometimes I do just kind of straight to camera reports on Instagram. You know, like, I explain what the safe act really is.

[Trevor Noah]

I think I saw one of those about. I feel like it was about Iran or something.

[Katie Couric]

It might have been about the Pentagon.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Katie Couric]

Maybe journalism and what they're doing and how they're trying to keep journalists out of the Pentagon. There's so much misinformation. So I just try to kind of give the facts and like the timeline of what happened at the Pentagon and why they were kicking some outlets out and bringing other outlets in. And, you know, just. I think there's so much information assaulting people every minute that sometimes I just try to say, hey, this is what the SAVE act does. Or this is why they're looking at redistricting in Virginia.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

Let me give you a little bit of the backstory so you understand. Cause I think it's really hard to process everything.

[Trevor Noah]

There's too much of everything, everywhere, all the time. I always think to myself, we think that we should judge people because they're uninformed. And I think we should actually process it a completely different way. I think people have too much information.

[Katie Couric]

I agree.

[Trevor Noah]

And a lot of that, you just aren't able to pass the information. Is it good? Is it bad? Where does it come from? Where should it come from? Like back in the day. I mean, you, you.

[Eugene]

How long? Cause these things happen all the time, Katie. He'll say statements as if he was there during George Washington era, and he would say back in the day. So it's my job to save you from the. How. How long is back in the day? Give us a timeline.

[Trevor Noah]

This is a. Actually we. We have one of.

[Katie Couric]

I. I am the. I am the physical manifestation of back in the day. Yes, it is. It is me, Eugene. That will be my new chiron, Katie Couric back. Because that's me.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but you were. You saw. I mean, I would argue that you came from like a golden age of news in the United States. When we think to a time of news. You are from that era. And then you rose to become one of the superstars of that era. And then I don't wanna sound too, you know, pessimistic about it, but I almost feel like you also seen it sort of come to an end in some ways.

[Katie Couric]

Oh yeah, definitely. I think. Well, you know, I guess I think most people might look back on the era of Walter Cronkite.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Katie Couric]

You know, back that long ago as the golden era of TV news. Of course, it was an era when, you know, most of the newscasters and reporters were white men. Right. And not diverse at all. But there were just a handful, a very small group of authoritative figures who you went to and you believed the trusted people. Trusted people in inverted common. Yeah. And it's interesting, I was thinking the other day about Walter Cronkite when he said, talked about Vietnam, honestly, and talked about how it wasn't a winnable war or whatever he said specifically. And LBJ said, if we've lost Walter Cronkite, we've lost America. Wow. And you know, I think that I was actually thinking about that because there was a modern day example which now I can't remember, but it just. These people had such. There was so much trust in these figures. And similarly with a handful of newspapers, with the Washington Post, which I read every morning growing up. Actually my dad read it and I watched him at the breakfast table. But, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. That's how part of life it was.

[Katie Couric]

It was, it was believed and trusted. And then of course, you had this evolution. You had 24 hour news networks, you had cable, you had then the bifurcation of liberal cable versus conservative. You had Fox News have over here.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, we don't have that.

[Eugene]

Yeah, yeah, we don't have it. It's just news is just news. You guys have these kind of people's news and these other people's news.

[Katie Couric]

And how do you. Who is doing the news in South Africa?

[Trevor Noah]

So in South Africa there's the South African Broadcasting Corporation, which is similar to the BBC. Right. In that it's state funded.

[Eugene]

Modeled after the BBC.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's modeled off the BBC and then it's state funded. People pay a fee, you know, for having a tv, it's like a nominal fee and that basically goes to funding it and their reporting. Then we have a few independent stations as well, but none of them have

[Katie Couric]

a clear ideological battle.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. That would be. I think most people agree. That would be crazy. Like we wouldn't, we wouldn't.

[Katie Couric]

We just like there's not the pro apartheid network.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh my goodness. Katie, can you imagine? The pro apartheid network. Oh my goodness, what a great idea.

[Katie Couric]

The pan. Hi, we're welcome to pan

[Eugene]

you are my replacement.

[Trevor Noah]

What a fantastic premise.

[Katie Couric]

But I do have a question. So is there criticism from the population?

[Trevor Noah]

Definitely.

[Katie Couric]

That feels. Or segment of the population that feels that the news as it's presented in South Africa is biased?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Katie Couric]

And how big is the outcry? And what is the response by the. By the publications or the networks?

[Trevor Noah]

What would you say?

[Katie Couric]

Or the network, I guess, singular.

[Eugene]

So in South Africa, the debate will always be after democracy will always be, would a white party rule in South Africa ever again? So there's a party called the Democratic alliance, which is leadership is white, but obviously they always been opposing the anc, which is majority black. So sometimes news readers and some other news channels would favor stories that the DA are doing, but just because they're in the news, they would look like they're being favored. Right. Does that make sense? Right.

[Katie Couric]

Yes. Yes.

[Eugene]

Then the people on Twitter, obviously. Cause they follow the same politicians and they get to see what they're doing. When the news comes on once a day about that specific politician, it looks like it suits the agenda of the politician.

[Katie Couric]

Right.

[Eugene]

But we were having this discussion the other day, we were saying the newsmakers are now trying to make their own news. If something sells, they'll go with it. If people are talking about it, if they see it on social media, they'll obviously go for it. But if the other party is doing nothing on social media, there's nothing to talk about. Does it make sense?

[Katie Couric]

Yes. So are you saying that politicians are now bypassing news altogether and just speaking directly?

[Trevor Noah]

In many ways they are.

[Katie Couric]

And co opting whatever message seems to be exactly, you know, trending, if you will, at any moment in time. But how divisive is it in terms of.

[Trevor Noah]

It's not like. No, it's not like the us no, no, no. It's nowhere close to the us. No, nowhere close to it.

[Katie Couric]

And why do you think that is again?

[Trevor Noah]

I think it's just because leadership in most countries I've been to, people have some form of criticism for the news. Right. So when I'm in England, people complain about the BBC. The BBC will even send out regular sort of polls and questionnaires to its audience. Do you feel like we're not covering this enough? Do you feel like we should be covering this more? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And people will complain about the BBC in everything. How did they handle the Epstein files and Prince Andrew? And how did they handle Israel, Palestine and how have they handled. People will complain about that in most places I've been to people complain about the news in some way, shape or form. In the US what's different is your news presents different realities.

[Katie Couric]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

That's something that I don't see in most places where it's like completely. I've flipped between channels sometimes just to see.

[Katie Couric]

I do that often.

[Trevor Noah]

It's pretty wild how it's like either one news station is covering it and the other one isn't completely. Or they are presenting completely different stories about the same thing. Yeah, yeah. And not even perspectives. Perspectives would almost be like, the Artemis rocket has taken off. It is flying around the Earth. Why are we wasting money on this? This is the greatest thing for mankind. Those are perspectives.

[Katie Couric]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

The one in America is like, it's like the rocket has taken off. There's no rockets.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, what?

[Katie Couric]

Or this didn't even happen.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Katie Couric]

Right. Yeah, this didn't happen. This is not true. Or as you said, you know, Trevor, basically just ignoring it altogether completely. Yeah, completely ignoring it. It's wild. I was thinking about the Walter Cronkite thing the other day because of Tucker Carlson, and I was thinking, is Donald Trump saying to himself, if I've lost Tucker Carlson, I've lost America? But I think he's not, because Tucker Carlson, as powerful a voice that he has, I think, you know, is just a tiny slice of MAGA world.

[Trevor Noah]

You think he's a tiny slice?

[Katie Couric]

Well, I don't know. When I think about. I have to look at his viewers, but I don't think he is. I don't think. I don't know. I guess the time will tell whether he and other defectors. Right. Like Megyn Kelly and all these other people. I'm not sure if Donald Trump enthusiasts will follow their lead. I don't know. What do you guys think?

[Trevor Noah]

So there's a strange phenomenon that I've noticed in and around Trump world, and it's that there's a. There's sort of a separation between Trump and his actions. And I still don't fully understand how to process it, but I've noticed many people who are Trump supporters will criticize Trump's actions, but then somewhere in their sentences, they'll say, but I like Trump,

[Katie Couric]

or, but he's better than the other guy.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Or. But, but. But in some way, they'll.

[Katie Couric]

They'll basically personalize it. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And they'll.

[Katie Couric]

That's why they call it the cult of personality. Right. They don't call it the cult of policy.

[Trevor Noah]

This is true. This is true.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But what they'll do, interestingly, is they will. They'll almost excuse him from his actions. And when he does something that they do not like. Okay, so let's use an example, a concrete example. When Donald Trump posted a picture of himself, like an AI generated image of him as Jesus healing the sick or healing people, when his base was like, really, really, really angry about that, understandably, they were like, how? What are you doing? This is blasphemous. The amount of people in the comments of his post saying, take this down. This is not you. I love everything you do. This is. This is not. Something must have gone wrong here. Mr. President, please. Someone has your foot defending. Yeah.

[Eugene]

That action.

[Trevor Noah]

They don't defend the action.

[Katie Couric]

They were advising him not to do that, and they were incredulous that he had done that. And they were convinced that he had made a mistake.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, that's what I mean.

[Katie Couric]

That wasn't intentional, but they had separated

[Trevor Noah]

his mistake from him, which I find very interesting. Do you get what I'm saying? Same thing goes with Iran. People will go, this president said he's not gonna go to war. I voted for him because he said he's not gonna be dropping bombs on other countries. I voted for him because he said the price of gas was gonna come down. And then you're like, so what does that mean for you? And they go, well, clearly he's being influenced by the wrong people. And, you know, this is not what he wants. I'm like.

[Katie Couric]

Or they'll say, he got rid of a terrible regime and he was the only person who had the balls to do it.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

And we're not gonna be in a long, protracted conflict. And what he did, I think there's this macho undercurrent too, you know, this display of raw power, strong men that people are attracted to as well. And while they may have doubts about the action and are not necessarily thinking about the geopolitical ramifications, there's something about sort of the brute force, the Pete Hegseth, you know, the ethos of the military, that the US Is once again proving who's in charge.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katie Couric]

That is, I think, very sort of subconsciously or consciously appealing to some of these folks as well.

[Trevor Noah]

It's definitely that. And on top of all of it, I blame part of it on the sort of sportsification of politics in America, in that in America, politics has become the way sports is, in that you have a team, you stick to that team forever.

[Katie Couric]

You.

[Trevor Noah]

And again, please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I distinctly remember watching American television And watching American people, regular people, get interviewed about their lives, about everything. I would commonly hear people say the phrase, you know, well, my mom was a Republican. My dad was a Democrat. Oh, my dad was a Democrat. My mom was a Republican. But they'd, like, say all the time, people would talk about how their families. And then they wouldn't even say was. They would say voted. You know, they go like, my dad voted Republican in the last election. And people would say that on the news. I'd watch interviews, they'd be like, well, I voted Democrat last time, but I'm not happy with things, so I'm gonna vote Republican this time, because I'm not. But it was an action as opposed to an identity.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah, right. And I was gonna say, I think that is so spot on that it has become so tribal. And we're talking about why people sort of stick with Trump no matter what. I think changing or pivoting or reconsidering is an assault to their whole identity,

[Trevor Noah]

I think to all of us. To be honest.

[Katie Couric]

I. I think so too.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, I. I'll say for myself, if there is something that I have tied my identity to and that thing falls in some way, my first instinct is to defend it as opposed to now questioning my worldview and beliefs. Do you know what I mean?

[Katie Couric]

Yeah, totally. I think it's deeply psychological. I think it's primal and very visceral that. I mean, I find myself that way too. Because if, you know, although I try to check myself, you know, my feed is full of people who agree with me, basically. I try to look at other points of view as well. But my, you know, talk about confirmation bias. On the other hand, this isn't like Mitt Romney and Barack Obama.

[Trevor Noah]

No,

[Katie Couric]

It is not normal. And so whenever I feel like, gosh, am I rooting against Trump? Does that mean I'm rooting against America? And I question myself and I question my emotional response to some of the things that happen, but I also think this person is dangerous, corrupt, and, you know, it's very difficult for me. And then I'm like, I need to note when he does something positive. Right. Like, even mentally, I need to be more receptive. Oh, this was a good thing. Right, Right. And I think it's hard for many of us who have been to able inundated with the bad things that he's been doing. The bad choices, the lack of respect for the rule of law and the Constitution, the self enrichment of him and his family. I mean, the list goes on and on. The cheering when Robert Mueller dies. You know, just the so many distasteful things that it's hard to kind of even have that little crack to say, oh, that was probably a good idea, a good policy. And maybe that's. That's helpful, whether it's like, you know, sort of in the first term, the criminal justice reform stuff.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

[Katie Couric]

You know, which arguably was a good thing. You know, getting rid of what, minimum, maximum or whatever, and people who are being incarcerated when Kim Kardashian got involved. And, you know, you think, well, that's a positive thing. Yes, but the negative stuff. So it's like a tsunami of negative stuff. It's hard to kind of come up and gasp for air and say, oh, that's good. And then you're, like, sucked under again.

[Trevor Noah]

Right, right.

[Katie Couric]

By the bad stuff.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm surprised that you even experienced that. Cause I've always assumed, incorrectly, that journalists pull, you know, their inspiration and ideas from a. From a. From a different spiritual realm. Does that make sense? Like, I always assume that we, the people who are reading the news, are just reading the news, and then journalists are sort of on this ephemeral plane where news is merely like a different idea to you. But it's interesting that you are in it. So I'd love to know, how do you then. Or do you even think of putting on different hats as, like, a person, a citizen, and then a journalist? How do you. Is it even possible to do that? Or do you. Or do you conscious, or do you always have to remind yourself that you have all hats on at the same time?

[Katie Couric]

I mean, I think that I have become a citizen journalist.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, interesting.

[Katie Couric]

I'm a citizen first now and a journalist second, because I feel like it is such a perilous time and such a dangerous time that I am paying attention in a different way. And I think, you know, as I said, it's not just policy differences that we're evaluating here. It's not just saying, you know, if you feel morally repulsed by the way ICE was behaving in Minneapolis, as a citizen, that deeply offended me. And I am not gonna both sides like, this is what they're doing. This is how the people of Minneapolis are reacting. I mean, I think looking back on it, even ICE defenders would admit, I would hope many, that it was out of control. Things were completely out of control in Minneapolis earlier this year. And so I am also someone who I feel has earned the privilege of at times, experiencing moral outrage at what I'm seeing. And I am not encumbered by you. Know, a corporate overlord saying, you can't say that. You can't do that.

[Trevor Noah]

Was that, was that common in your previous job? Like, give me an understanding of what it's like. People often use, you know, phrases like the mainstream media and they don't want you to. What is your honest assessment or even experience of working in an environment where you are under a corporation and they. How much do they decide what you are, I think, aren't going to do?

[Katie Couric]

I think everything. Well, first of all, I think there was a lot of separation between sort of the companies and the news divisions. You know, you saw General Electric owned NBC, GE when I was there.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

And, you know, there were times where if there was a story about ge, we would either not report it or say it's a parent company of NBC. But for the most part, these corporations kept out. There was a very clear line between the corporation and the news division, and they didn't mix. And now, obviously, there are quid pro quos happening in corporate media and news division. So it is a completely different ball of wax. It's like apples and oranges. I can't say, like, this is how we did it back in the day, because everything has changed. Trump is basically controlling these huge multimillion dollar consolidation, conglomerates, whatever you want to call it, mergers. And they can't merge without the FCC and his administration giving them approval. So they're basically bowing down and saying, we're going to give you $16 million to. Because the Kamala Harris interview was edited in a way that you didn't like, which was complete, unadulterated bullshit. That case had no merit. But they gave him $16 million. Similarly, ABC with George Stephanopoulos, $15 million because he said sexual assault, I think instead of. Or I think he said rape instead of sexual assault or whatever. And normally, I think back in the day, Katie Couric, Back in the day, we, we would probably issue an on air apology. Correction.

[Trevor Noah]

Correction. Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

But I don't think anytime I worked at a network would they pay somebody because they were afraid of the ramifications if they didn't.

[Trevor Noah]

You would feel like it would be like a badge of honor. In fact, you know, I like a

[Katie Couric]

badge of honor to what?

[Trevor Noah]

To be, like, sued by a person in the administration, any administration. I always felt like journalists who came up against, like, the government. I always felt that that was a badge of honor. We saw it in South Africa, the journalists who were arrested by the apartheid government. It was a badge of honor. You know, the journalists who were in War zones who were arrested by, you know, rebel factions or the governments that people were trying to overthrow. It was a badge of honor. It always used to be this badge of honor where it's like, oh, we are now going to stand our ground and show you.

[Katie Couric]

And linking truth to power. On the other hand, I think, you know, if journalists make mistakes. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, that's incorrectly.

[Katie Couric]

Or report it, then I think that's how the system works. Right. And so I don't think you can say sort of carte blanche or generalize that it's a badge of honor all the time. But, you know, it's totally different now, the way they're using their power to suppress stories, to change how the framework of stories or, you know, how a story is positioned. I was talking to a friend the other day about when CBS News did a 16 second reader on January 6th, and they were basically saying, Hakeem Jeffries said this, Donald Trump said that.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

Now, if there's no Universal Understanding that January 6th was an insurrection, that people were killed, police officers, and, yes, one protester, but that it was an attempt to overturn an election and disrupt the peaceful transfer of power.

[Trevor Noah]

And hang Mike Pence.

[Katie Couric]

To stand up and hang Mike Pence.

[Trevor Noah]

Cause they had a side and they were like, we're coming to hang Mike Pence.

[Katie Couric]

If you throw the election in Donald Trump's favor, then they're just. They're not being truthful.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

That is factually incorrect.

[Eugene]

I think the conflict for anyone doesn't live in America is America has always gone into other countries to try and defend their democracies. And if people voted for this dispensation, aren't there mechanisms in the same Constitution to coil anything that they don't like from the same dispensation?

[Katie Couric]

Yes. What? I kind of understood that question.

[Eugene]

So if it's a Democratic state.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

That is voted in by its citizens, surely there must be a mechanism within the constitution of the same state that can stop things that the people who voted don't like. Do you get what I mean?

[Trevor Noah]

It's a yes and no. That's the weird thing, right?

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. I mean, the first thing about elections, certifying the election. Right. And that's what was happening on Capitol Hill when this whole riot broke out. So I think you're right. There are steps that will ensure. Right. A free and fair election. The question is, if those steps aren't followed by the frigging President of the United States, where does that leave you?

[Trevor Noah]

But it's also weird, you know, to Your question is like, one of the strange things about democracy is that you are buying something you do not yet have and you've never tested and you've never really owned.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And you're paying for it up front. So in many ways, I think, like, voting is similar to buying a house. You walk in, they show you around, and then you're like, all right, I'll take it for the next however many years of my life this is for me. And then only when you sleep in it for a week do you go, I think this shit is haunted. Do you know what I mean?

[Katie Couric]

Or, you know, could have just rented key.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. You're like, what? What just happened here? But I think that happens in democracy. We take that for granted as a system. It's, it's, it's maybe the best one we know right now. But I do think it's a little bit strange that we go, okay, Eugene, tell me your pitch. Trevor, I promise you pizza every Friday. All right, I'll vote for this guy. And then Eugene comes in and then he's like, I don't like pizza. It's weird because I voted for you based on, like. I do think it is strange that there is no mechanism to hold politicians accountable for the thing they said they were going to do. Yes, you are. What is that?

[Katie Couric]

You're called elections.

[Eugene]

No, but that's.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no.

[Katie Couric]

You're called the next election.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but you see, that's too late. That's too late. Okay, now let's use this analogy somewhere else. Imagine if you went to a car dealership and you said, I want to buy this SUV for my family. They go, yeah, great, A seven seater SUV for you and your family. You go, you sign it, you take it, you drive out of the lot. When you get home, there's two seats and you like, what just happened? And then you phone the dealership and you're like, you said seven seats. And they're like, yeah, we just realized seven seats wasn't going to work, so we switched it to a two seater. And you can switch it out in your next lease.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah, I still have to own this one. That's what you're saying. There should be a better business bureau for the government.

[Eugene]

I think there's a better replacement for democracy.

[Trevor Noah]

I think they could be. No. Yes, I think so.

[Katie Couric]

A better replacement for Democracy for the

[Trevor Noah]

way we run it, for the way it could be.

[Katie Couric]

Okay, What?

[Eugene]

Because people assume, well, I'll speak for my country. People assume. First of all, in our country, people had to explain to people which they didn't know in this age of information that we actually don't vote for the president, we vote for a party. The party elects people, puts them in parliament. Parliamentarians in their different parties elect a president.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

So we don't choose who the president is. So that's the first part. But what we've done is I think if democracy was real, we would have to be able to choose in real time, all the time. You can't choose once.

[Trevor Noah]

See, this is why you're my guy.

[Eugene]

You can't choose once every time.

[Trevor Noah]

This is why you're my guy.

[Katie Couric]

So every day an election.

[Trevor Noah]

This is why we wear an election a day. This is why we dress the

[Eugene]

poly marketed. So here's the thing. If you vote for a president, you vote for a party. The party elects representative. The representative themselves in parliament elect the president. That person who's the president now elects people that he likes and trusts.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

And then they go on to elect people that they like and trust in different cabinet positions in different ministries. So basically what you've done is you've empowered an institution to create its own sub institution.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

And everyone puts people that they trust over and over and over. Local municipality suffers because people are always looking at the bigger picture, which is the president of the country. And no matter how many times when people are dissatisfied with service delivery, when the president says, but I don't control anything at municipal level, no one will believe them because people assume because you are on the ballot paper, we voted for you. Right?

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

And also these mechanisms of little local elections and municipal elections. And by elections, they're never as advertised as the big super bowl of elections.

[Trevor Noah]

No, they're not. I mean, even white people don't vote on that level in the same way. Yeah.

[Eugene]

So I think people should be able to select the president not from just the party, just select the individual. And then also have a say in the individuals that that individual selects.

[Trevor Noah]

So I. Okay, can I, can I pitch you my idea on this?

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I actually think the biggest issue with politics is individuals.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Let me try and explain this. When somebody goes up and starts a campaign, we know nothing about them. We do not know their ability or inability to do things for the most part worse.

[Eugene]

We don't know their friends.

[Trevor Noah]

This is true.

[Eugene]

That they're gonna elect.

[Trevor Noah]

We don't know.

[Eugene]

This is true. They will elect their friends.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

They'll them or where they're getting their money to run the game.

[Trevor Noah]

There we go.

[Eugene]

All of this I wanna KD back in the day.

[Trevor Noah]

So I think. I think sometimes when I'm trying to solve a problem, I try and go back to the original idea of what we were trying to solve. Right. Why do we have representatives? I would argue the reason we have representatives in every system is because it was not feasible for all of us to be contributing or discussing how to do a thing. So we said, hey, we live at this table. We are the table people. Everyone at other tables also has decisions to make. So why don't we send someone from this table? So, Katie, you go represent us, please, at the national Table Convention and tell us what other people from tables are thinking, but let them know that we like certain kinds of tables, please. That made sense. It made sense at a time when there was no Internet. It made sense at a time when information couldn't just travel instantly. I think it makes a lot of sense. Right.

[Eugene]

Yeah. When means of productions were controlled by a limited few.

[Trevor Noah]

Completely. Completely. We now live in a world where I think we use all this great technology for, in my opinion, like, trashy things.

[Eugene]

Online betting.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. We have online. We have, like, online sports betting. Yeah. Instant, like, decisions. And you can. To do what? To bet on a game and then go broke. And then, you know, your family's destitute and young men are, like, homeless. And what. We have it for what? Voting on, like, a singing competition. Send us your votes. Now, that's instant.

[Eugene]

Mm.

[Trevor Noah]

We've got amazing technology, but we use it for, like, the most gimmicky thing. Oh, put your opinion online. Imagine if. I know this sounds crazy, but imagine if people could ala carte votes digitally about things that a country's doing.

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Instead of having it be one day to pick one person who's gonna make all the decisions.

[Katie Couric]

But having said that, you know, to really explore and analyze an issue takes tons of time. The American people, and I don't know what the situation is in South Africa. It takes a lot of time and energy and focus to really understand deeply all these issues. Ostensibly, these people are there to really learn, evaluate, have staff people look at us. What we hope now, ideally, Right. The average American who's trying to earn a living, you know, be productive in the world, take care of his or her family.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Katie Couric]

Isn't necessarily going to have the expertise in a certain area, I think, to. I mean, I think they can get involved. They can call their member of Congress, et cetera. But do you believe that that would really work? That every. You know, if. Let's say there's an issue of. Are you saying, for example, like, Funding dhs, that we should have a national vote like American Idol and people should say how they feel.

[Trevor Noah]

So I love that you brought that up because I think it captures two elements of politics that I think have broken down. One is the etymology of politics itself, right? From the Greek poly for the people, politik. It's like it is literally the thing for the people of the people. If we the people cannot understand the thing, it is wrong is my opinion. Why have you made it so convoluted? Yeah, it is easier to understand than you make it. And I think politicians have created a world where they've made it like, look, you, you guys cannot understand this. Let us do it for you. It's so complicated. Your tiny little brain cannot understand this. Just give us your tax and then we will do it for you.

[Eugene]

We'll take care of it.

[Katie Couric]

You small brain person became Indian.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, no, no, no. This is just a lord. A lord of something.

[Eugene]

But this should be part of what every politic on and every citizen should insist on. Administrators should never be touched. So if you think of in South Africa, for example, the Ministry of Home Affairs.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, yes. You see, I'm life, I'm loving.

[Eugene]

Minister comes in, he must not touch.

[Trevor Noah]

You see, I'm loving this.

[Eugene]

The general manager.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm loving this.

[Eugene]

The departmental heads, because these appointments that are because of friendships are the ones that destroy. Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

This guy.

[Eugene]

Do you get now you're a political figure. Appoint. Political appointee.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

Destroying what the administrator has done for years and years and years and things have been working. And then we let that happen because we assume that they know what they're doing. But this person just six months ago was in a political party rally.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

And now he walks into Home affairs and Department of Immigration and Department of Finance and Department of Health and elects people that he thinks know what he's going to be doing. And political deployments have never worked.

[Trevor Noah]

So this is. So this is what I, this is what I mean by it. I agree with you that most of us do not understand the intricacies of the things going on in a bill or the issues. Except most of us. But I would argue that most of us also include many of these politicians.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

The reason I say this is because if you talk to, as you have, senators, congresspeople, et cetera, first of all, they have a whole barrage of staff who processes it for them and then gives them footnotes. And those people, if they're influenced by the right person, choose which footnotes to give or not give. And you've Seen it in these hearings sometimes where, like, someone will ask a senator themselves, they'll be like, do you know what's in the bill? And then the senator will be like, well, I mean, I know what the bill. And then they're like, do you know what's in the bill?

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And then it's like, well, look, I don't know every single thing. Did you know that in your bill about bridges? There's also a thing here about schools? And then, like, how pigs should be shipped? What? Pigs? Yeah, yeah, there's a thing about pigs. It's a bridge. Yeah, yeah. This is infrastructure. But there's a thing about pigs.

[Eugene]

You know what it is? We assume that everyone who dispenses medicine is a pharmacist. So when we elect officials, we assume that they know what they're doing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, that's what I mean.

[Eugene]

We want them to dispense democracy on our behalf. And they keep telling us, you guys are too young to know what this thing is. Let me drive it for you, and I'll let you know when.

[Trevor Noah]

Could be another way, Katie.

[Eugene]

There could be another way.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Katie Couric]

So, guys, what are you proposing here?

[Eugene]

Ha. We thought you'd never ask.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you know what's funny? This is how I'll even. I'll. I'll say it.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Look at what you're doing in your life now.

[Eugene]

If.

[Trevor Noah]

If I had come to you three decades ago and said, katie Couric, I think you can run your own media organization that chooses its own stories from

[Eugene]

the comfort of your own home.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And just. And not even have a time that you actually put something out. There will be no fixed time slots. There will be no time length.

[Eugene]

There will be no overlord.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you think you would have looked at me and been like, yeah, this sounds feasible?

[Katie Couric]

No, I would have said, you're nuts.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you. That's. That's what I mean. So. And when I look at what you've done today, it's exactly that. It's. It's citizen, you know, citizen journalism, where you. You've taken. Taken all your expertise, all your experience, all your everything that you've gained over your life, your connections, your respect, your everything, your knowledge. And you've created something that is very necessary. And we're seeing many organizations that are doing this, you know, like one of my favorites, like, on YouTube, is like a more perfect union.

[Katie Couric]

Oh, yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Some of the journalism they're doing is like. You're like, wow, why isn't this just everywhere?

[Katie Couric]

Isn't this everywhere? Yes. Or midas touch, you know, is doing some great work and courier news as well. It's funny because my friend's daughter is like the head of all digital content for a more perfect day.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, okay. Yeah, kudos to them.

[Katie Couric]

And so it's really interesting.

[Trevor Noah]

But that idea seemed crazy. The idea that a person could make an album in their bedroom and then send it out to the entire world and then the world could choose how to listen to it seemed like a crazy concept, you know, and then look at someone like Billie Eilish.

[Katie Couric]

But, but, but how?

[Trevor Noah]

I think for voting we could do it. And I think we have all the tools now.

[Katie Couric]

All right, well, let's talk about that. I mean, I'm just gonna challenge both of you, so how would that work?

[Eugene]

Please leave me out of it.

[Katie Couric]

No, it was you. It was you with the grip, the big eyes.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't wanna be challenged.

[Katie Couric]

So I would love to hear more specifically how this would work pragmatically.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, here's how I pitch it Right now, this is still in beta. This would be the idea, but there's a few things we have to address. So number one is there's a deluge of information, right? And there's a breakdown in how people understand that information. I do think AI has given us a tool that we've never had before in that AI can tell you exactly, it can translate it for you, for you. Regardless of your aptitude, regardless of your proficiency in a language regard, AI can help you understand the way you'd understand the way you need to understand it. All right, so that's the first thing I think is we've now got a tool that can take large amounts of information, synthesize them for you, right? So that's the first part. The second one is we already possess digital technology that requires verification and authentication. So people are trading like Bitcoin and all these things. You gotta have your ID in there, you've gotta have facial recognition on banking action, two step verification. So there's a measure of security biometrics that is often more intense than voting security right now. So it's like, okay, so there's a way to verify that this is Katie Couric who's making this decision. So that's, I would argue, handled already and can keep getting stronger. And then the last one is the instant nature of it. Instead of having bills that are built on other bills that are built on other bills that are built that, in my opinion, mean lots of things don't go anywhere. You could just have an ala carte System where people in their cities, in their states, et cetera, are voting on bite sized ideas, which is how we already consume information. Then you just go, hey, would you like more or less funding for the parks? And this here's how we're breaking the spending, here's how we're doing this, here's. I do think there's a way we could simplify the information without diminishing any of its fidelity.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And get people to make decisions as opposed to saying you can make no decision, you can just pick a person and then that's it.

[Katie Couric]

But there's a lot of things that go into running a country, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Katie Couric]

So are you suggesting that every issue, every decision, every spending cut or increase is voted on by the citizenry?

[Trevor Noah]

No, but I do think there's a large part of it. I think we. Right now we're at like zero is what I argue. Right. Maybe not zero to be fair. Cause I guess people vote on. What do you call those in America?

[Katie Couric]

The referendum.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And also there's the other ones where people go, shoot, ballot initiatives. Yes, thank you. Ballot initiatives. All right, so it's not zero to be fair, but it's very few. I'm not saying it would be a hundred. Cause I love bureaucrats. I'm gonna go on record to say, as like Eugene said, my friend over here, you know why? Because bureaucrats make the world move. And we've been conditioned to like hate bureaucracy and hate. No, they are the people who make sure that the bridges are gonna work and make sure that the engineers numbers match up and they, and they make sure that the roads are built and they make sure that the drug companies are actually testing and they're looking at the studies and the.

[Katie Couric]

I think some bureaucrats. I mean, I think bureaucracy has gotten a big A bad name. And I think there are public servants who do exactly that, serve the public. But there's also bureaucracy connotes a certain kind of bloat. Right. And, and I think Democrats and Republicans agree that the government had gotten too big and could have been more efficient.

[Trevor Noah]

Way more efficient. And that's not.

[Katie Couric]

And, and, and of course, Elon Musk took a literal chainsaw to it where it needed an X acto knife. Right. And so I think that. I agree with you. His one was weird. But I think we're in this binary world, you can't say bureaucracy is good, bureaucracy is bad.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's why I'm agreeing with you. That's why I'm agreeing. You know what's funny about the Elon Musk thing. He took a chainsaw to it. I've never seen somebody take a chainsaw and then somehow everything down. But also miss all the trees because he didn't save anything. He saved, like, no money, but everything was destroyed. At the same time, you're like, what were you doing with this chainsaw? Elon Musk like, no, no. But to your point, that's what I'm agreeing with. I'm saying. I'm saying I think there can be a balance. He didn't miss everything. I think there can be a balance where we just find a world where we are a little more involved and politicians are held a little bit more accountable along the way as opposed to making it like, I guess I'll wait four years to. You know.

[Katie Couric]

I think that people. I think that Election Day should be a national holiday.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm loving this, Katie.

[Katie Couric]

I think people should be fined if they don't vote.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, let me think on this. Wait, let me think on the second one first. Let me think on it.

[Eugene]

National holiday.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm in. I'm in.

[Eugene]

Fine.

[Trevor Noah]

Because I'm in. Katie. I'm in.

[Katie Couric]

Wait, now I would. I wish I knew at the top of my head, does Australia, some country, somebody.

[Trevor Noah]

You have to. You in Australia, you have to vote.

[Katie Couric]

It's mandatory. Right. And what happens if you don't?

[Trevor Noah]

I do think there's. You get penalized in some way. That's why people vote for, like, Darth Vader and stuff there. It's quite common. You get penalized.

[Eugene]

I think you find penalized come from the word penalty.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

So you get.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, yes, that's exactly what it is.

[Katie Couric]

But don't you think I just feel like.

[Eugene]

Why don't you say penalized? Because you could have said penalized.

[Trevor Noah]

Because I think it's penal. I don't even think it comes from penalty. I think it might come from penal. Something else.

[Eugene]

Yeah, but penal colonies were penalty colonies. Penitentiary colonies.

[Trevor Noah]

Peloton. Peloton. I don't know. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. Imagine this. You're at a checkout counter. You're ready to pay when you realize you don't have your wallet. Dun, dun, dun. You could drive all the way back home and you could get it. But you remember that you have your Apple card on your iPhone so you can tap to pay with Apple pay. Imagine that. No need to carry a wallet. But you know, one of the things I do like about having my card on my Phone is. We live in a world where you lose your card and then you don't know where it is. And then you're like, what do I do? Well, if your phone is connected to your card and your card is connected to your phone, you know what's going on. The best thing about having the Apple card connected to your phone is you know what every transaction is. You know, like, sometimes you're like, what did I spend this month? The Apple card will show you one month. I had spent an obscene amount of money ordering videos online.

[Eugene]

Just videos?

[Trevor Noah]

They were just videos.

[Eugene]

What kind of videos?

[Trevor Noah]

That's not the point. The point is, I knew that I didn't want to order those videos anymore because I'd spent too much money on it. It was videos on how to not spend money online.

[Eugene]

I felt like I'd been duped.

[Trevor Noah]

Point is, Apple showed me what I was spending my money on, and I was able to change my spending habits. And you can do it, too. I earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase with my Apple card. That's unlimited daily cash back no matter where I shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] youm know when the weather finally turns and everyone suddenly remembers they have friends? Well, that's when you know it's time to get outside, fire up the grill, and start planning all those sunny gatherings, pool days, weekend hangouts, Mother's Day, brunch, graduation. All of it. And what I like is keeping it simple. That's why I go to Whole Foods Markets, because they make gathering easy. You've got quality meat, fresh organic produce, and those seasonal bakery treats that somehow disappear before the guests even arrive.

[Eugene]

Hmm.

[Trevor Noah]

I wonder who that was for. The grill. It's all the good stuff. Organic chicken breast365 by Whole Foods Market. Lean ground beef, ready to cook kebabs. That's the kind of setup where even if you're not a grill expert, people still respect what you're doing. Oh. And then you round it out in produce. Avocados, heirloom tomatoes, strawberries, mangoes, raspberries. Suddenly your table looks like you planned this for days. And if you want to go a little further, the desserts do the work for you. Mango yuzu, chantilly cake, strawberry pretzel cream pie. Those are the moments where people stop talking and just eat.

[Eugene]

Ooh, ooh.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I almost forgot. This is one of my favorite options. You Let Whole Foods Market do most of the work. Prepared foods has everything. Quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, family sized salads, cut fruit, veggie trays, you name it. You just show up relaxed and people assume that you've been cooking all morning. And then you act like you've been cooking all morning. And if you really want to take it easy, well, then let Whole Foods Market catering handle it all. Same quality, same great ingredients, just none of the stress. Because at the end of the day, it's not about the grill. It's about the people around it and who prepared it. Me. Thank you very much. I'll take all the credit. Shop for all your summer favorites at Whole Foods Market. If you're trying to be a little more intentional about what you wear day to day, well, Quince can help you with that. They've got pieces that feel easy, comfortable, and still put together. The fabrics feel elevated. The fits are clean. It's the kind of clothing where you don't have to think too hard, but you still look like you did. And I've realized that's actually the goal. You don't want to be standing in front of your closet negotiating with your clothes. You just want to put something on and get on with your life. Quince makes that easier. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts starting at $34. Lightweight, breathable, especially when it's warm, but still structured enough that you don't feel like you just rolled out of bed. And what surprised me is how they're able to price everything. It's about 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands because Quince works directly with the factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're getting premium materials just without the markup. I picked up one of their linen shirts recently, and it has been in constant rotation. Don't get me started on those sweaters. Oh, so comfortable. You know, it's just those pieces that just work. You can wear it out, you can wear it casually. It's comfortable, it breathes. And every time I put it on, I'm like, okay, this feels like I made an effort and it didn't cost what I thought something like that would. That's the balance. I like clothes that feel good, look good, and don't make you overthink it. So refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com what now? For free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com what now for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com what now?

[Eugene]

So here's my thing about voting. First of all, I think it's politicians. But wait, can we agree?

[Trevor Noah]

We're in, by the way, we've got our vote. National hell on holiday.

[Eugene]

Yes, we're completely in. And penalty.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, I'm in. I'm in on this.

[Eugene]

If you don't go vote. Yeah, because you have to holisticize your democratic responsibility. Not right. Because I think at some point it becomes a responsibility instead of a right. Okay, so here's my thing. I think politicians are the reasons why, or the reason why normal citizens hate bureaucrats because they've used words like red tape and bloated. They've used those words to excuse them not being efficient. So they've said, I would love to do this, but ah, there's so much red tape. But if I put someone that I know who can cut through the red tape, then for four years someone is putting someone that cuts through a red tape. And as soon as they get there, they don't cut through the red tape because maybe there's no red tape. That's how things work. If you've ordered a thousand buses from Malaysia, it takes one year to make the buses, ship them over here every six months.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, Trump came in saying it gonna drain the swamp. I don't want to drain the swamp.

[Eugene]

Who doesn't want the buses?

[Trevor Noah]

We gotta drain it. And then you go there and you're like, what did you drain? I mean, turns out it's not a swamp, it's a bathtub. You can't drain the bathtub because we got a bath. We got a bath. That's what it is.

[Eugene]

You know what, you need to be penalized for doing that accent so well. So the second part is, I think there should be categories of who can vote and how many times can they vote.

[Katie Couric]

Whoa.

[Eugene]

So I'll give you, I'll give an, I'll give an example in Chicago because here's my thing. There's banks who have more security than governments when it comes to voting, okay? And there's also buildings that are run more efficiently than governments.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay?

[Eugene]

So we can combine those two. We go. People in some buildings who have kids can vote if the place needs to be kid friendly or not. But if you don't have kids or you don't have a dog, I mean, sit this one out.

[Trevor Noah]

So this is an interesting idea.

[Eugene]

So we must go.

[Trevor Noah]

You're going like Granular with the vote?

[Eugene]

Yeah. So if we go, katie, how many kids do you have? And you go, I've got three kids. They go to school here. Here's their age. And then we go, okay. In the voting ballot paper, you get more of a say because you are creating a future for your kids.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, this is an interesting idea. What do you think about that, Katie?

[Katie Couric]

I don't think that's a good idea.

[Eugene]

Why?

[Trevor Noah]

Why not?

[Katie Couric]

I mean, you're saying that people with kids should have more than one vote,

[Trevor Noah]

the same way people with kids get to board the plane first.

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

So, no, I'd like to know your thoughts on the word about it.

[Eugene]

People with dogs get preferential treatment at the building zone, at the park.

[Trevor Noah]

I want to hear what Katie said.

[Eugene]

I'm not. I don't own a dog. But when I see a dog lover rolling with their dog in a dog park, I'm like, I understand you wanted this to happen and this is benefiting you, but I. If I was left to vote for your comfort and your dog's comfort, I can tell you now, you and your dog wouldn't be here.

[Trevor Noah]

But, no, this is an interesting. What do. What do you think of that?

[Katie Couric]

I don't think. I don't know. I've never really thought about it, and I just don't think it's practical.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Okay.

[Katie Couric]

I just wanna tell us how. You tell me how. All right, so what do you do, a census? And you're saying that people.

[Eugene]

When you're registering to vote, obviously the government already knows from the birth certificates of your children how many children you have.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I tell you something? It sounds like a crazy idea. When you said it, I thought, it's crazy when you explain it. There's a little bit of sense to it in that, like, it also feeds

[Katie Couric]

into Project 2025, where they want more people to have more kids, that they feel like that people should be procreating in a much faster rate.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I tell you. Can we just pause it? Can we take a tangent on that?

[Katie Couric]

So what if people say, okay, I'm gonna have more kids because I wanna have more votes? Is that a good reason to have children?

[Trevor Noah]

No, it's not a good reason, but your body's not gonna cooperate. Like, good luck just making kids.

[Eugene]

No, partners as well. Yeah, you're in trouble already.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, like, the weird thing about the human body is everyone can say, like, I'm gonna have more kids, but your body might be like, no, you're not.

[Eugene]

Your agenda.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, it's just a Weird.

[Katie Couric]

I think it's a. It's not a good idea.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Katie Couric]

And I can't really, really get into all the reasons why, because I have to really think.

[Eugene]

There we go, Katie. But do you. Would you live in an apartment building that's not kid friendly when you have kids?

[Katie Couric]

No, this.

[Eugene]

This building says, we don't want to hear children playing. We don't want to hear them laughing. We don't want to hear anything.

[Katie Couric]

No, I wouldn't.

[Eugene]

You wouldn't live there. Right. But why do we do that with a country. Why would you do that with a state that doesn't allow us to express ourselves and our needs and the things that we care about on a granular level, but on a gigantic scale, so.

[Katie Couric]

Well, I think you do by voting for people who you think have policies that are going to be better for your children.

[Eugene]

But we've discovered that they don't even know how the Department of Health works.

[Trevor Noah]

It is true.

[Eugene]

They've told us. They're like, I'm a politician. Okay, how about this?

[Trevor Noah]

I'll pitch this to you before we get to our crazy ideas. Can I pitch something?

[Eugene]

We haven't gotten that yet.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. Because we are. No, I'm saying before.

[Eugene]

Oh, the crazy ideas.

[Trevor Noah]

We haven't won Katie over.

[Eugene]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Trevor Noah]

All right.

[Eugene]

And also, Katie's coffee has run out. That's why I think she's okay. I'm good. She's skeptical about it. I'm good.

[Katie Couric]

I'm good.

[Trevor Noah]

Let's, let's, let's.

[Eugene]

Okay, how about.

[Trevor Noah]

How about this?

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Could I pitch to you? How would you feel if I said nobody should be allowed to run a. An area of the government that they don't possess an expertise in? How do you feel about that?

[Katie Couric]

Good.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Okay. So you would agree, like. Cause I think it's strange that somebody who has no experience in the field of medicine or science can go and run the fields of medicine and science.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Okay. Okay. No, so you. I'm with you there.

[Katie Couric]

Of course.

[Eugene]

And then here's another one. Here's another.

[Katie Couric]

What's that have to do with being able to vote more? Because.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. I'm just trying to bring.

[Eugene]

We give.

[Katie Couric]

Of course. I, you know, I, you know, I think.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, I'm trying to, like, I'm trying to see. Okay.

[Katie Couric]

Oh, are you. Are you.

[Trevor Noah]

We're trying to see where we.

[Katie Couric]

Building your argument. Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Not even. No, no, no. I'm just trying to see where. Where we get.

[Eugene]

Here's my other one. Here's my other one to add. Because now we're going. We're not going extreme, actually. We're going. These are mediocre.

[Trevor Noah]

We're trying to win a voter of one.

[Katie Couric]

Every.

[Eugene]

Every politician that runs to run a certain department must run it.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

Their campaign.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

Together with an elected bureaucrat from that department.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm not mad at this.

[Eugene]

So they might. They're like, department of Health. Yes. And then there's Steve, who's been at the Department of Health for a long time.

[Trevor Noah]

I like this.

[Eugene]

And then he endorses me because Steve thinks, should I come in here? There's things that I could do at Capital City that he can do, but there's things that he can do inside there that I can do. So his running mate is a bureaucrat. So everybody.

[Katie Couric]

What if the person who's coming in to power has meaningful and important reforms to institute? You get the bureaucrat who is basically adhering to the status quo and saying, this is the way we've always done it. When the person coming in might say, we need to change this. This needs to be done differently.

[Trevor Noah]

This is a good point. How do you respond, Eugene?

[Eugene]

They'll need to convince the bureaucrat why, as an outsider, they think that would work when the bureaucrat has been there for 20 years?

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know. I'm feeling. It's getting gummed up now.

[Eugene]

Where.

[Trevor Noah]

Because now they have to convince a bureaucrat. Now, I'm a little bit with Katie on this one.

[Eugene]

Okay. If. If I've been there for 20 years.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

And I'm telling you, that's how we do a podcast. This house. The podcast has been going out.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Eugene]

In fact, the fact that you exist as a politician to want to try and run this department.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

And then you come and you go, no, my constituency says it could be better here then here. You see how we're getting to my voters again? But we're not gonna go there. Then the person says, okay, I think if you change this studio and if you change this location, if you change this microphone, then the person who's a bureaucrat, that goes, no, if you change that, this is what would happen. If you don't change this, this is what would happen.

[Katie Couric]

But you're saying, give them equal authority, right? Yes.

[Eugene]

Because they are running together. So there's.

[Trevor Noah]

Now I'm with Katie.

[Eugene]

I'm sorry, you want the politician to be.

[Trevor Noah]

You've lost our jobs. Now you've lost my job.

[Katie Couric]

I mean, is it. You're saying that the politician has to have expertise so in other words, the person is running the CDC has to have expertise in health. Public health.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. You should at least have some sort of.

[Katie Couric]

Yes. So if that's the case, that person to me should have the authority to. And hopefully you have decent people who are intelligent and knowledgeable and take information from the people who are already there. But that person has to be in charge because I'm just afraid. Yeah. I just don't like your plan. I'm sorry, Eugene.

[Trevor Noah]

Sorry, Eugene. You failed. Can I ask you question? When you.

[Eugene]

Katie, I'll win you.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm assuming over the years you've developed countless sources and you know, people who are insiders and just people who've like, told you things about. And this could be an incorrect assumption, but I'm assuming this because of your time in journalism. Have you heard from people inside what we call the administration and have any of them signaled to you that like, they're sort of not sure or they, you know, how do they even manage that incongruency between what they think should be and what is.

[Katie Couric]

I haven't heard that many people who are currently inside the administration because I think first of all, they are uber paranoid about leaks there. Oh, wow. Okay. You know, whether you working at the Pentagon or wherever, I think that. And also I think if you're covering something, you have to be at the Pentagon to really have these inside sources.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Katie Couric]

That's why reporters have different beats. Right. So they develop sources and have expertise in that area. Wait, so. But I do know a lot of people who have left the administration who have been fired from the administration, who then are speaking out. For example, I interviewed a senior level FBI agent who talked about kind of what she had seen happening in the FBI, the sort of the wholesale firing of people with expertise. For example, in the Iranian terror threat. Right. Cash Patel just gets rid of this whole unit. Or because some of these agents were investigating some of the perpetrators of January 6th, they got fired. So people like that are much more open to obviously talking.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Because now they've left.

[Katie Couric]

What's happening inside the administration? I think most people who are unhappy have left or are too afraid to talk about why they're unhappy. You know, Liz Oyer was fired as the chief pardon attorney at doj. Now she has this very, very vibrant social media presence and she's talking about what's going on in the doj. I'm sure she has sources that some people left who she worked with.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

But I think it's very difficult, at least for me. And maybe White House correspondents who are actually on site and can develop these sources. But I think most of the people in the administration anyway.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Katie Couric]

Not necessarily in the federal government. I'm sure there are a lot of people, but they're terrified, too. You know, you speak out and you get shit canned. Right, right, right. So I don't really have a lot of people inside this administration who would be able to talk on the record about or, you know, even off the record about their displeasure of how things are being done.

[Trevor Noah]

I've always been fascinated about how the beats work. So if somebody is. When they say someone is Capitol Hill correspondent, Pentagon at the White House, what does that exactly mean? Cause I don't assume as a journalist, you get to walk around the White House freely and investigate things.

[Katie Couric]

Well, you used to be able to. Well, I'll talk about the Pentagon for a second. Because I was the deputy Pentagon correspondent at NBC only for a year before I became national correspondent on the Today show and then co anchor of the Today show. But basically, when you're a deputy or any Pentagon correspondent, whether it's for the Atlantic or the Washington Post or NBC News, you develop sources. You walk around the E Ring, which is the biggest.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, slow down, slow down. Sorry. So slow down. Because you're saying it, and I don't understand any of it. What does developed sources mean?

[Katie Couric]

Well, you talk to people, you know, you introduce yourself to people. You talk to people from different, you know, arms of the. You know, from the Navy, Air Force, Marines.

[Trevor Noah]

So you just go around and you're like, hi, I'm Katie Couric. I'm a reporter and nice to know you.

[Katie Couric]

Well, yeah, Or I remember getting a tip from somebody, you know, my first week at the Pentagon, no ways, and said, hey, this is happening. Are you interested? What was the story?

[Trevor Noah]

Do you remember?

[Katie Couric]

Yeah, it was about a guy who had secrets, and it ended up. Yeah, yeah, I think his name was. Anyway, he's being accused of being a spy.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And that person tipped you. So help me understand this. Why do they do that? As opposed to. You would assume, if you work at the Pentagon and you know that somebody's a spy, you would just go to your, like, your superiors and be like, hey, this person's a spy.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Why would they come to you?

[Katie Couric]

I think the person was already being investigated.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Katie Couric]

And I think they thought it was a good story, that it was worth being in the public domain and that it was worth reporting on. I mean, I think people have various motivations, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. For telling a reporter something. It could be for their own self aggrandizement. It could be making them feel powerful. Could be because they truly believe in the public, in the public's right to know.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

But anyway, so you would walk around, you would talk to people, you would meet people, you would meet them. You know, getting an egg sandwich in the morning, I mean, all kinds of ways. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

That's fascinating.

[Katie Couric]

And. And you would walk around. I would just walk around that Pentagon, like do circles around what they called the e ring. Just 10,000. And I would talk to people and introduce myself. And now they have limited your ability to walk around the Pentagon without an escort. There's certain parts of the Pentagon you can't walk around. You know, all the different restrictions they've tried to place on reporters at the Pentagon, they first of all kicked out. You know, they got rid of people's workspace. They made the New York Times and I think NBC News and another publication leave. Because we used to have desks and offices, and you'd report from the Pentagon. Like we had a soundproof booth and they'd come to us. And so they kicked some of them out. They did. More administration friendly news organizations invited them in. Then they said you had to sign an agreement saying before you reported on a story, even if it wasn't classified information, you had to clear it with the Pentagon. Oh, wow. With the Pentagon people, that feels a bit dictatorial. And then a judge said, you can't do any of this. And now they're still trying to put the Pentagon reporters outside the Pentagon proper. They're trying to annex the reporters and keep them out of the building. I mean, they're just trying to make it very, very difficult. Now, reporters, to their credit from the New York Times and all the legitimate news organizations haven't let it stop them. But one Pentagon correspondent told me that one of her sources is afraid to meet her at a restaurant. Right. Or is afraid to be seen talking to her at all. You know, which isn't surprising, but it's just very. It's much more difficult, and it has a chilling effect on what people are gonna feel comfortable talking to reporters about. Right, Right. They're gonna be so scared. And I think that Pete Hecseth has really made it clear that he will not tolerate any leaking. But that's when you get information about things that are going on that perhaps shouldn't be going on that warrant the public's attention. So they're doing. It's really upsetting. They're really trying to muzzle reporters and tie their hands behind their backs and make their jobs very difficult. And it's just not right.

[Eugene]

I sometimes like how you explain now makes sense of what I always think. I sometimes feel sorry for hardcore journalists who are invested in telling people the news because of how much information just gets lost in between. Right. So if you think about in South Africa right now, what they're trying to do is they're trying to pass a law that incentivizes a whistleblower. So if a whistleblower comes out in a department and says 16 billion rand was stolen, they. When the, when the person gets convicted, the person gets a share of the money recovered.

[Trevor Noah]

Whoa. What?

[Eugene]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I didn't know this.

[Eugene]

Yes. So they first get protection while the case is being investigated and then afterwards they get a cut, a percentage of what was recovered. So I think of the news and I think of the era of maybe like CNN during Desert Storm. And you'd find these journalists in there telling the news they were the source of the news. They were reporting live from there. So I can imagine someone who has a source who works at the Pentagon, whoever gets this information gets the story out. But they go on social media and there's so much disinformation about the same subject that they fought so hard for, all the meetings they had, the life, their livelihood that they're risking sometimes is a journalist to print a story that is true. And there's potential ramifications for a lot of people.

[Katie Couric]

Well, I still, I mean, there is still incredible journalism happening. You know, I think about ProPublica, you know, a nonprofit news organization, and they were the ones who figured out how many of the people who were being arrested and detained by ICE were not guilty of committing serious crimes.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yes, right.

[Katie Couric]

And it was something like 85%. Right, right. And others. And, and so, and then you. The New York Times or the Atlantic or the New Yorker. It was New Yorker and the New York Times keeping track of how the Trump family has enriched themselves to the tune of over $4 billion and counting. This was a few months ago, so I'm sure it's much higher. So I think that you're right. Everything becomes diluted in this media landscape where everyone has a voice and an opinion and pretends to be a journalist. But I still believe that for well informed people, and I think media literacy is more important than ever. I think that we have to have people who understand how to consume information and to judge information and the accuracy. But I think that those stories do break through. And then what Happens is, you know, for all the bellyaching about mainstream media, whatever that is now, you know, it's these big organizations, news organizations, some of them, who are invested in news gathering. They're reporting on stories and then those stories are then ingested by other people and explained to their social media followers. You know, so a lot of these single sort of social media opinion givers and reporters are taking the, the reporting, the core of the reporting done by these news organizations and basically, I don't want to say plagiarizing, but they're basically reporting what these other people have been working so hard to report. So in a way it has a ripple effect. And so these news organizations are doing a great service and even amplifying it, even if they're putting it in their own words, is a positive thing because it is the result of oftentimes weeks, if not months of reporting. If that makes sense.

[Trevor Noah]

No, it makes complete sense.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I wondered like how you grapple with, as a journalist, when to put free speech or the freedom of the press above or below what you may perceive as the interests of the country. Cause this has always fascinated me, like, you know, America will be conducting a military exercise or something. And then I'll see in the newspaper, they'll go, well, the military plans to da, da, da. And they plan to blah, blah, blah. Then I'm like, do other countries not read newspapers? Because it seems weird that you can, you can say you can report what

[Eugene]

is going to happen.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, like, like I'll read in the newspaper that they've just discovered that the military is planning to do X, Y, Z.

[Eugene]

Well, that's what happened in South Africa. There was a military operation, joint military operation that was ran with the US army and the South African army and the President didn't know about it.

[Trevor Noah]

And then someone report it came out.

[Eugene]

It was reported in the news.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

Then he had to call the general in for an inquiry.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Eugene]

Imagine how weird that was.

[Trevor Noah]

But, but this is what I mean.

[Eugene]

Yeah, this is, this is what I'm saying. He found out in real time with the rest of us.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, but what I'm saying is as

[Katie Couric]

a journalist, I think there are national security considerations that I think you pay attention to. If they're, if, if I'm trying to think if there was an example like that when I was at the Pentagon, you know, Panama, for example. I think, I do think that you do weigh sort of national security considerations with the public's right to know, you know, and I think it's a case by case situation. So I think that a lot of, I don't know now in the current landscape, who knows, right? But I think most legitimate journalists in a certain situation wouldn't necessarily, necessarily preempt a military action. I'm trying to think of examples and report on them prior to them taking place, but they might. I have to really think about that and look back on different cases.

[Trevor Noah]

It's such a strange one because I don't know if people. So okay, like an example, let's use a hypothetical. Nicolas Maduro, the US military going in and getting him and then bringing him to the U.S. that's what we call it now. What do you want to call it?

[Eugene]

Like they're giving him a lift.

[Trevor Noah]

They got him.

[Eugene]

He wasn't in a sleepover. He was not like, yeah, I hope

[Trevor Noah]

you wouldn't go get him. Yeah, no, that would be picked him up, got him means I got him. Do you get what I'm saying? That's why you say got him versus picked him. If I said like, hey, what happened to my friend Eugene the other day? I'll be like, oh yeah, I picked him up. I'll never be like, I got him.

[Eugene]

Oh, but you could also say, I'm going to get Eugene later, so I can't meet you at three.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm going to get Eugene. Yeah, yeah, this is true. I guess it depends on like the inflection. Snatched.

[Eugene]

Yeah. If Eugene your house, what word would you use?

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, I'm gonna use snatched. Then they went and snatched him. They went and snatched him.

[Eugene]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

That type of story. Or even let's say Iran. When you look at how the public, and obviously it's not all of the public, but when you look at how like the American people have responded post some of these things, maybe Venezuela people weren't as attached. So they're like, we don't understand what's happening. We don't understand why we're doing this. But then like with Iran, the American public seems to be against this en masse. Most of the people in America are going, we don't want this. And we did not want this. I wonder if a journalist had to

[Katie Couric]

know they want us a billion dollars a day. Right?

[Trevor Noah]

Is that what it is now? A billion dollars a day? Oh man, that's a lot of Ozempic people could be buying. People are like, there's no money for healthcare, but there's money, man. If someone could have reported that cuz somebody knew something ahead of time.

[Eugene]

Mm.

[Trevor Noah]

I wonder if that type of reporting, which seems to go against the sort of interests of the administration go in the interests of the country. Because if, if, if the country knew beforehand and then the country goes, we heard this was gonna happen. We don't like it. There's a good chance it wouldn't happen.

[Katie Couric]

Well, I think it was pretty clear that something was going to happen in Iran, you know, with all the shit that had been deployed and all that. Right. And you think about the lead up to the war in Iraq. Right. The whole argument that the Bush administration was making about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that turned out to be wrong. And I think the reporting on that was pretty strong. Right. But it was strange because that was sort of post 9, 11, and there was a tendency certainly for Afghanistan but later for Iraq to not question sort of the administration as vociferously as they should have been in the run up to the war in Iraq. And the White House correspondents and a lot of journalists were roundly criticized for not questioning what was happening more, but they were definitely reporting on it. And I think, yeah, I'm going to go back and look at sort of how military operations, if anyone scooped a military operation, if it had a. A negative impact on the execution of

[Trevor Noah]

that process, that would be fascinating too.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure there are a lot of cases. I'm. Yeah, I can't think of any now.

[Trevor Noah]

We'll be right back after the short break. You know those things you keep telling yourself you're going to do? I should file my taxes earlier this year, I should go to the dentist. I should finally clean out that one drawer that somehow became a storage unit. You know, you should do it. You just don't. And for a lot of people, therapy falls into that same category. It sounds like a good idea in concept. You think, yeah, that would probably help. But then the process starts to feel intimidating. How much does it cost? Does insurance cover it? How do you even find the right person? And when would you have the time? So instead of figuring it out, you just put it off? Well, that's where Rula makes a difference. Rula is a healthcare company that helps make accessing mental health care feel more straightforward. They work directly with insurance providers, so you can see personalized cost estimates upfront, no guessing, no surprises. And sessions average about $15. With insurance, you can sign up and find a therapist in as little as five minutes, and appointments can be available as soon as the next day. And what I appreciate is that by removing those common barriers, the cost confusion, the time, the search, it starts to feel more possible to actually take that first step, because sometimes the hardest part isn't deciding you need support, it's figuring out how to begin. And when that part becomes simpler, everything else becomes a little easier to face. So head to rula.com that's r u l a.com to find a therapist the easy way Eczema is unpredictable, but you

[Katie Couric]

can flare less with epglis, a once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema after an initial four month or longer dosing phase.

[Trevor Noah]

About four in ten people taking Emplis

[Katie Couric]

achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, and most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

[Eugene]

Hemclus Lebricizumab LBKZ, a 250mg per 2ml injection, is a prescription medicine used to

[Trevor Noah]

treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least

[Eugene]

88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new

[Trevor Noah]

or worsening eye problems.

[Eugene]

You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebglis before starting ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

[Katie Couric]

Ask your doctor about eglis and visit eglis.lilly.com or call 1-800-LilyRx or 1-800-51. Looking for a gift to make Mom's Day? Shop Etsy for all her favorites, like personalized jewelry and accessories or even custom stained glass artwork she'll truly love. We can't count the ways your mom means the world to you, but you can count on Etsy to help you find a gift that will make her feel seen. Celebrate the heart of the family with Mother's Day gifts on Etsy. Celebrate being human.

[Trevor Noah]

How do you or how have you, I should say, because I think you've done a really good job of it? How have you managed to be Katie Couric the person and Katie Couric the journalist for as long as you have and sort of maintained, especially on the journalistic side, the prestige of that role and not lost it because people know who you are. You know, you've spoken about your family, you've Spoken about loss. You've spoken about death in your life. You've shared so many things as a human being, and yet, at the same time, I don't know how to explain it. It's almost like it hasn't celebrity fied your journalism, if that makes sense.

[Eugene]

People still tainted it.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, sometimes influenced sometimes. Sometimes some news people or some journalists start to, like, become the stories in some ways.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I wonder how you've. How you've. How you've. Have you purposefully looked to strike that balance? And how have you done that?

[Katie Couric]

Not really. I mean, I sort of don't feel like I am two different people. And at times, I think I have become the story. Right. In a way, I used my husband's death to become a cancer advocate. Right. And so that is when my personal plight and my journalism have intersected. Right. In terms of trying to inform the public about colon cancer and colon cancer screenings.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, they still call that the couric effect. Right.

[Katie Couric]

Well, the fact that, yeah, colon cancer screenings increased 20% after I did a colonoscopy on the Today show. I know, it was crazy.

[Eugene]

Sorry for your loss, by the way.

[Katie Couric]

Thank you. I appreciate that. But I don't know. That's kind of. I don't even know how to answer that question. I am a person, and I'm a journalist. And listen, I try to do the best I can in both roles. Right. Yeah. I don't really see a delineation between. Yeah, of course. I have my personal life that I don't necessarily share with everyone, and then I have my professional desire to keep people informed. But I don't know. I've never been asked that question. I don't really know how to answer it.

[Trevor Noah]

How do you take a break from being informed?

[Katie Couric]

It's hard. You know, selfishly, it's really hard because the volume and velocity of stuff coming to you. If you kind of check out for a day, you missed a. I feel like, oh, my God.

[Trevor Noah]

You missed a war.

[Eugene]

You miss a war.

[Katie Couric]

I feel like I don't know what's going on.

[Eugene]

You lose a billion dollars a day.

[Katie Couric]

Right. And you're like, oh, my God. Wait, what? And there's so much to keep up with. And, you know, and I was just rereading a couple of stories, you know, preparing for our conversation. I was like, I have to really understand why the CDC kept this report about the COVID vaccine from being made public. I know they did it. I saw the headline, but I don't know enough about why they did it.

[Trevor Noah]

And what did they say? Cause I also read that, but all I thought was that they were just like, we don't think that this is valid.

[Katie Couric]

They questioned the methodology.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I mean.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. Which was this Morbidity Mortality Weekly Report, which must be really a fun read, that is published by the CDC and has never changed how they go about analyzing information because. Well, they kept it. They blocked it because it didn't fit with their narrative because it showed the COVID vaccine decreased emergency room visits by 55% and hospitalizations by 50%. And this is a CDC and, you know, department of, you know, RFK juniors. What is his. It's. What is RFK in charge of? You guys was the health secretary. Yeah, yeah. You guys call it Human Services.

[Trevor Noah]

Health and Human Services.

[Katie Couric]

Sorry, Health and Human Services. Sorry.

[Eugene]

The Department of Health.

[Katie Couric]

I'm getting my acronym.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. No, we call it the Department of Health.

[Katie Couric]

Department of Health and Human Services. You know, they are clearly anti vaccine. Anti Covid vaccines. So they are suppressing a report that showed the positive impact of the COVID vaccine.

[Trevor Noah]

Trump's vaccine, may I add. I don't know why my man gets no credit for that vaccine. He put Operation Warp Speed into effect. You remember this?

[Katie Couric]

Yes. And in fact, somebody was talking the other day.

[Trevor Noah]

Trump was proud of this, and he was pushing it home.

[Katie Couric]

Trump was the. One of his proudest accomplishments.

[Trevor Noah]

It was one of his proudest, and he should be proud of it.

[Katie Couric]

And now, you know, obviously it doesn't fit the narrative.

[Eugene]

So now he's stepping back from the responsibility of it.

[Trevor Noah]

No, not even. It's like, what happened was weird. Trump was responsible for, like, he was at the head of spearheading this COVID 19 vaccine in record of time. Not just the rollout, but the acceptance of it. Getting the entire scientific community to research a thing, to put into place a system that normally would take up to a decade or something. Yeah. And saying, how do we run certain processes concurrently to make sure that we can get this out as quickly as possible so the world can come back to life? It's a good life, right? It was a fantastic thing.

[Katie Couric]

It's a fantastic thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Trump was also proud of it.

[Katie Couric]

So many lives and, of course, MRNA vaccines, and this whole approach is actually responsible for this new immunotherapy that they think has a lot of promise for pancreatic cancer. So not only was the COVID vaccine a positive, it also led to a lot of other vaccines for other serious illnesses and a new kind of therapy, therapeutic approach. But in this world where black is white and white is black and up is down and down is up.

[Trevor Noah]

It didn't fit with what the base and the narrative were going with. And so what was strange was Trump said it at one of his rallies. I remember he said he's like, the COVID vaccine was my vaccine. I did it. I did. And the crowd's like, boo. He's like, a lot of people, they don't like that. They don't like it. So I don't talk about it. I don't talk about. But he was like, yo, I did that thing. It's not Biden's vaccine. It's my vaccine. But because his people didn't like it, he was like, all right, fine. But it is mine. But fine. Nobody wants to talk about it.

[Katie Couric]

I don't want to. I'm not gonna talk about it anymore.

[Trevor Noah]

But okay, I see what you're saying.

[Katie Couric]

Science is so infuriating, Especially someone like me who's tried to devote so much time to cancer research, to raising money to support science. And this. This idea that people don't believe the scientific community and the way that Anthony Fauci has been demonized is just, in my view, a disgrace.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I think it's a. You know, it's one of those things where hindsight is 20 20. So I remember when we had Dr. Fauci on the show, and I asked him this question or version of it, just like. Like, how much do you feel responsibility to inform people of what's happening? Cause at the time, the thing I said as well, about, like, the CDC and all of it was they were giving mixed messages, you know? So first they told us, don't wear masks. Please do not wear masks. Masks are not for you. Don't wear the mask. Don't wear the masks. And then all of a sudden, they're like, everyone get a mask. And we're like, what the hell just happened here? And it was like, this many feet away from other people. No feet indoor, no outdoor. And then when you realize they were trying to, like, manage people, I was. That was like. The only criticism I had was I went, regardless of your intentions. And I think parents see this a lot. Sometimes you think you're gonna lie to your kid for a good reason, and your kid will appreciate it.

[Katie Couric]

I think they should have been more transparent that this is a new virus. We are learning about it every day. We're learning about transmission. We're learning about how deadly it is. We are learning, and we are really doing this as we go.

[Trevor Noah]

Sweden did that.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. And I think that that would have perhaps made people less critical of kind of, oh, wait, now this, now that. Actually, on the other hand, well, we've reevaluated this and I think that science, you know, there's an art to science too, and it's cumulative and you don't necessarily have all the answers immediately. And I think the scientific and medical community did an incredible job of taking this pandemic and trying to understand it. But I think there was something lost in communicating what they were learning to the general public.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

But I don't think it warrants the

[Trevor Noah]

kind of, oh, no, like the world ending demon. It's like, it's extreme, but it's also, again, it goes back to the sports of it.

[Katie Couric]

All right.

[Trevor Noah]

If you ask sports fans, what should happen to somebody who's made a bad tackle, depends on the team. Someone would be like, ah, come on, that happens. Get a walk it off. The other side's like, no, kick him out of the game. Eject that person and ban them. Even that was the most flagrant.

[Katie Couric]

So I think the tribalism.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. That has marred how Americans in particular, I find, discuss any issue. But I also think even this is something I've always wondered, even in journalism, when did that thing. Not that you immediately know, but why do they put Republican or Democrat before somebody's name in an article like, why does American news report things like that? Or they'll even say a win for Democrats as childcare law passes. Then I'm like, but why don't they just say childcare law has passed?

[Eugene]

Win for the people.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I've always wondered that. Like why, why do they.

[Katie Couric]

In my opinion, I guess in a two party system, you have to you. I guess maybe it's a way of figuring out people's priorities and getting back to elections, you know, what they care about and what they choose to focus on and, and move the needle on. Right.

[Eugene]

What promise seems delivered and by who.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but what I mean, okay, so it would be different if the headline said Democrats promised childcare law. It has now been passed. I know this is not a sexy headline. Right. But that is what happened. But if they go in a win for Democrats, childcare law passed. To me, it makes it seem like the Republicans have lost and the Democrats have won. And the childcare law doesn't have anything to do with the children in the law. It just has to do with who passed it.

[Katie Couric]

I mean, I don't know where you saw that headline.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, no, no. This is a headline I'm Paraphrasing. But I could pull them. There's always, like, in a windfall in a. You know. And then the other one is just when people speak so they'll go, Republican Katie Couric passes law on or says that we need to have fewer this. And sometimes I think if you could remove that R or D before the issue, I think people would approach it with a more neutral and honest opinion, perhaps, you know, did you ever see that quiz that The New York Times, that. You didn't see this, but you'd love this, though. You'd love this.

[Eugene]

How do you know I didn't see the quiz?

[Trevor Noah]

Ah, Brian, you don't read. I know this. So. No. So it was here in the New York Times. Um, they put out a quiz. It was around, like, when Hillary, Bernie, everyone was running. So I think 2016, somewhere there. And the quiz was, you just choose your issues. We'll tell you who you should vote for.

[Eugene]

Oh, wow.

[Trevor Noah]

And I remember in the building, we did this in the office, and everyone ran this quiz, right? And I was working at the Daily show at the time. And so, you know, some people were liberal, some people conservatives, everyone. But everyone had their idea. They were so confident. They're like, oh, I know I'm gonna get Hillary. I know this for sure. Oh, I'm definitely gonna get this. I'm definitely gonna get that line.

[Eugene]

Pasting of issues.

[Trevor Noah]

It was literally that you just. Do you think America spends, A, too much money on the military? B, not enough money, C, just the right amount, D, you know what I mean? They did that for every issue. And at the end, they would go, this is the candidate who aligns with you. The amount of panic and angst in the building when people got their results, and it even went viral at the time. But I remember people going, this can't be right. I'm not a Bernie voter. And you're like, no, no, no.

[Eugene]

But everything you want, issues align with the candidate.

[Trevor Noah]

And that's when I realized, half of the time, we are not looking at the issue. We are looking at the person we associate the issue with, with, and then we are making the decision based on that.

[Eugene]

But circle back to my earlier proposition of how elections should be running.

[Trevor Noah]

This is not election time. We're not going back to.

[Eugene]

You're voting on the issue.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, no.

[Eugene]

I agree with.

[Trevor Noah]

But what I'm saying is. Do you get what I mean?

[Eugene]

Don't agree. Katie, please. You're a journalist. You know this tactic. He's printing a retraction.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm not printing a reaction. No, no, I said I agree with, I said I agree with issue based. No, no, but I originally agree with issue based. No, I, I had already agreed with it.

[Eugene]

Okay, Sh.

[Trevor Noah]

The thing I didn't agree with you on was the bureaucrat buddy. Coming to elections like a bureaucrat buddy. Yeah, bureaucrat buddy. I didn't agree with. Yeah, that I didn't agree with. Do. But do you understand what I'm saying? It's like, I, I wonder, maybe responsibility is the wrong word, but there's one part of journalism that is finding out the facts and the information and what

[Eugene]

is going on and verifying them.

[Trevor Noah]

There's another part that is framing it. How is it put to people packaging it? Yes. And I, I, that's the thing. I Sometimes I just find myself wondering. Cause I didn't grow up like that is like, why is it necessary to have that person's political affiliation when they were just saying or doing something? Because then I think it, it limits a person's ability to just go, I like or don't like this.

[Katie Couric]

Or to say, a Republican can actually have a good policy.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I mean.

[Katie Couric]

Or a Democrat can actually. That's a good. Well, hopefully these things are bipartisan. I mean, I'd like to go back and see the headlines that you have in mind. I mean, I think that people just, I don't know. You know, it's just very, very traditional and very, I think, has the way it's been done with Republicans and Democrats and. I don't know, I don't, I don't, I don't see a problem with that.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't?

[Katie Couric]

Mm. Mm.

[Trevor Noah]

Huh. You know, when I realized how powerful it can be was when we did a piece on how there was a, There was a town. I forget where this was. But basically someone was running for mayor in a city and in this city, and I think there's a few places like this, you are not allowed to say whether you're Republican or Democrat when you're running for mayor. You just run.

[Eugene]

Really?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Yeah. And this place has like, one of the highest rates of people voting across party lines because they don't know which party the person's from. So they just go, who's running? Eugene. Eugene wants clean water. Eugene thinks there should be more cows. There should be fewer windmills.

[Eugene]

Parents should get more, more, more votes.

[Trevor Noah]

Parents should have more votes instead of individuals. Exactly. And then they go to like, okay, we've also got Katie Cour k. Katie wants more journalism, more desks at The Pentagon, more egg sandwiches and more cheap throats. And she wants more colonoscopies. And this is her platform that she's running on.

[Eugene]

Yes, the people wants.

[Trevor Noah]

The people vote.

[Eugene]

Trevor wants good times.

[Katie Couric]

So you're saying the obsession with two parties is polarizing?

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. I'm saying the identity of it first, I believe limits people's ability. If I met you and the first thing you said to me was, hi, Republican Katie Couric, no matter what, my brain has now put you in a certain space. Even if you said, hi, Democrat Katie Couric, I'd be like, okay, my brain has put you in a space. Hello, Liverpool supporter Trevor Noah. Your brain already goes. If you're a Manchester United supporter, you're like, I don't know about this guy.

[Katie Couric]

Hmm.

[Trevor Noah]

For me, the joy is you meet people, you talk, you discuss things, you experience life. And then at some point somebody goes, you're an Eagles fan. Aw, man, I'm a Chiefs fan. I didn't know you're an Eagles fan the whole time. Okay, okay. That's what I think it robs people of. Honestly, in my opinion.

[Katie Couric]

No, I understand what you're saying. There was a Heineken commercial a few years ago about people putting together a bar. Did you ever see this?

[Trevor Noah]

Building things together.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. Yes. And nobody knew anything about anyone's background. And there was trans person there.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Katie Couric]

There were just kind of a whole kind of.

[Trevor Noah]

It was a complete gamut of life. It ran. Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

And it basically, I think this is sort of the point you're making to kind of get rid of your preconceived notions and to be more open minded for different perspectives. By the time they finished doing the bar, they all kind of had done something together. They had. Had talked to each other, they'd gotten to know each other. And it removed all these kind of, you know, very specific, you know, preconceptions about each other. So I think if that's what you're saying, I understand. I mean, I don't know about removing the D and the R if that's gonna be the solution. Oh, not solution.

[Trevor Noah]

I just like. It's like I'm pitching an amendment is where I go. Cause to your point, you know, what I loved about that commercial in particular was they brought people in, they knew they had very extreme views about certain issues.

[Eugene]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

They made them work on something together. They would work and they would struggle and they built something together. And then afterwards they'd get them to say why the other person was so good and why they Worked well together. And they'd be like, oh, man. You know, Eugene really builds well. And Katie is such a wonderful teammate. And they had all these efficiencies, use of things. And they said, all right, now we want to show you a video. And they gave you, like, a video

[Katie Couric]

and the person described who they were.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. And then it was like, hello, Eugene, here's a video. And it was Katie Courage.

[Katie Couric]

You should watch it, actually.

[Trevor Noah]

It's amazing. It's amazing. And then you get the video, and it's like, I'm Katie Couric. Man. If there's one thing I hate, it's South Africans. Short South Africans who are comedians with glasses. I hate them with all my heart.

[Eugene]

Me too.

[Katie Couric]

Or more like, I am a woman. I believe in a woman's right to choose.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. This. I believe all of this is discovered in A2 rights. I believe in this. And it just kind of. All these differences evaporated. And it was very interesting.

[Trevor Noah]

It was beautiful, because people said people

[Katie Couric]

saw each other as humans, not as.

[Trevor Noah]

There you go.

[Katie Couric]

Ideologues.

[Trevor Noah]

I sometimes. Do you think that that's also part of the role of journalism, is to make everyone in a society see the other people in that society?

[Katie Couric]

Yeah, but I think it's really hard now because I think when there's so much fragmentation and you want to get an audience, there's a real. There's an advantage to appealing to people who feel strongly one way or another. And it's. It's less of. Let's talk about the nuances of this story. It's more, as my friend Kara Swisher says, like engagement through enragement. How do you get people, especially social media and these platforms, obviously, are all. It's all about the attention economy, how long you're gonna stay on the platform, how you're gonna engage on the platform. And so I think that there's not an emphasis on kind of a conversation where two people could show a different point of view. I mean, I guess Abby Phillip does that in some ways on her CNN show. But that show frustrates me, too, sometimes, because. Well, like last night or I saw a clip, or maybe it was last night that they were talking about all the very incendiary things that President Trump has said.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

And this one Republican kept insisting that he was really changing the dialogue, but he would not. Or changing kind of the temperature, lowering the temperature of debate or whatever he was saying. And yet he would not concede that some of the things that Trump has said are wrong.

[Trevor Noah]

Wrong.

[Katie Couric]

You know, you don't cheer when Robert Mueller dies.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

You know, a true patriot, you know, and so many things. I mean, we could list chapter and verse, all the things, the incendiary and just honestly, you know, disgusting things that Trump has said and done. And he would not just say, you know what, that was wrong. He shouldn't do that. It's sort of like he didn't want to give an inch.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but there's no reward in that, I find now.

[Katie Couric]

Well, that's what I'm saying.

[Trevor Noah]

In society.

[Katie Couric]

Oh, okay, I hear you.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

There's no reward he's describing. He is on a team to get back to your sort of team point. And he does not want to do anything that will make people doubt his loyalty to that, I would even argue. So the environment just isn't receptive to kind of this give and take. It's. Everyone is sort of has picked their side. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But I would even argue in that instance, I would levy some of the blame on the producers of the show because I would go, you know full well that you are not bringing somebody here to have a meaningful discussion. You're bringing somebody to play a part against somebody who's playing a part.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because when I watch those shows.

[Eugene]

Disgusting.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. The people are very much. You can say whatever and then be like, oh, Donald Trump choked a puppy. Well, let me. I mean, who likes puppies? Come on, let's talk. And you're like, you don't think that, but. Because your job here is to be the pro Trump or Republican person, and your job is to be the pro Democrat. Pro. I almost go like, I'm like, oh, we haven't, we actually haven't created a show about discourse and dialogue. We've created the theater of it.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

That makes both sides feel seen, and it feels like a way to, like, try and grab both sides, but it doesn't feel like a meaningful way to actually have a discussion.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah, I agree. And I guess the question is, again, I think just because I've covered so many administrations, do we normalize some of the things the Trump administration is doing by giving it weight in an argument? Right. And are these policy differences or is it something more dangerous?

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Katie Couric]

And the question is, do you legitimize that by having that conversation? I don't know. Yeah, that's the,

[Trevor Noah]

the normal way of doing things to an abnormal thing. Are you now making the abnormal normal?

[Eugene]

Very normal.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Essentially, is what you're saying. So when, when, I mean, we, we've. We find you at a point in Your journey, you know, it feels like one of your many evolutions. What is your. What is your dream? What is your. Like? If you. If you look at what you're doing now in life, where you're trying to go with it, what do you hope it becomes? And what do you hope it fills in society?

[Katie Couric]

I mean, I don't hope it becomes anything. I hope that I can continue to give voice to people who have the wisdom and the experience and the understanding and the knowledge to share what we're all witnessing together and to give it a perspective that I think is right. You know, I ask the questions, I don't always have the answers, but if I want to talk to somebody who I think does, who can give an honest appraisal of what's going on, and that's what I want to help share with the world, if that's helpful to people, if they. If they're the way they see the world. I mean, obviously I'm giving them a platform, so there has to be some kind of level of me kind of feeling like their views are worth exposing and airing and putting out there for the public. But that's what I hope to continue to do. I think. I gave a speech last night, I got an award, and I was talking about how science. Thank you. Science is refuted, how the Constitution is being ignored, how expertise is being derided. So all those things I want to give voice to, and that's all I want to be of service to democracy in any way I can and to the values that I hold dear. Scientific discovery and advancement, the rule of law, you know, expertise. You know, I was reviewing this book by Tom Nichols. I think it was written in 2017. It was called the Death of Expertise and why People Don't Trust People who have a Deep well of knowledge in a certain area. Because everyone is an expert now. Everyone has an opinion. And then I think the democratization of media means that everyone thinks everyone's opinion holds the same weight, but it doesn't. There's so many opinions without portfolio out there. I want to talk about the COVID vaccine with the scientist who has studied it, you know, and who will really, truly understand the impact of it. Not somebody who's trying to kind of perpetrate a narrative about the vaccines are unsafe. Nothing is 100% safe, by the way. And I think that that needs to be transparent, too, to the American public. But so trying to use my ability to elicit questions and to ask questions that I think think most people have and to be able to turn to somebody who really understands an issue, who understands like the role of NATO in the 20th century and, you know, post World War II and what it has done and what is it it has meant, while acknowledging that perhaps some countries haven't paid enough. Right, right. Into NATO. But, but kind of understanding the framework. I want to talk to a historian who can talk about that.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Katie Couric]

Not somebody who just says NATO sucks and they're not paying their fair share. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

It's the nuance and the complication. And I think, yeah, your endeavor is valid because I think it does something. One of the first things you said in explaining this is you said, I paraphrase you, but basically you said something to the effect of I want to report on the world and the realities that we are all experiencing. I think that is one of the most important things we take for granted is just giving people a view of a reality that we do share. I always say let's argue about reality, but let's not dispute. We can argue all we want.

[Eugene]

Science.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah. But let's not dispute reality itself.

[Katie Couric]

And also, you know, it's messy.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it is messy.

[Katie Couric]

There's no clear cut answer on some of these things. You know, my daughter often talks about the ability to think dialectically. Yes. And. And I think we've lost our ability to do that. Yes. Two things may be true at the same time. You know, the regime in Iran was terrible and, you know, was able to survive for too long a brutal theocracy. Right. That was doing all kinds of terrible things to its people and to the region and potentially to the world. Right. You can say that. Was it right to do this now? And what were. What was the rationale? Right. So I think that also, and the way.

[Trevor Noah]

And the way it's been done, and

[Katie Couric]

I think this tribalism has made people really wary of dealing in the gray areas and in the complexities of situations. Yeah. Scared to be wrong. And. Yeah, I think you're right.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Scared to be wrong and messy. I think messy is the big one.

[Eugene]

Yeah. Because I think being scared to be wrong foils debate from the onset. If you run the risk of being wrong, you will never allow your opinion to be challenged, number one. But I think what this conversation has helped me realize is the importance of journalists. Cause I think a lot of people who consume short bites of media on social media do not understand that their favorite influencer that tells them the news, got that news from a journalist who verified the sources, who wrote the story, who broadcast the story, and someone takes it and runs with It. So we, we still need, and we should have a deep appreciation for hard working journalists such as yourself and other people that you know in the industry.

[Katie Couric]

Yes, definitely. I'm so glad you said that because I'm working on a documentary or trying to develop a documentary about the evolution of the news business because, you know, I got into this business in 1979 and how it's changed back in the day, Kim. And we should call it Back in the Day. It is called Back in the Day and sort of what it means and how important it is to have a common understanding of truth in a democracy.

[Trevor Noah]

That's the thing.

[Katie Couric]

Right. And we have lost that. You know, people call it truth decay and you know what that means in terms of keeping a democracy strong.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's one of the. It's part of an immune system is the way I think of it. Right.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

A body is a messy thing. Its systems are strangely messy, but they all work in a direction. So like sometimes you feel bad, like you feel sick because your body is fighting to make you unsick, but you feel bad because of your own body. Does that make sense?

[Katie Couric]

Yes. Your immune system.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Katie Couric]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But it's weird if you.

[Katie Couric]

Oh, wait, wait, no, a virus gets in there.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but the immune system is. The thing that we're experiencing actually is like your body is making. Yes, the reaction.

[Eugene]

Yes, we're experiencing the reaction.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I mean. And that's what I mean by the messiness of it all is like sometimes I think we take for granted that the correct way or the best way we've figured out for things to work is the messy way is like the journalism will reveal messy truths about your country and your people and outsiders and insiders. And if it's good journalism, it will force you to grapple with those truths, you know, like you're saying, and to think.

[Katie Couric]

Yes. And I think, I think unfortunately, I think all of us have gotten intellectually lazy where we immediately. Intellectually lazy to, you know, our side of the argument.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katie Couric]

And it's not like, well, wait, what? You know, maybe this should have happened differently or maybe that person has a point. You don't have to agree with them on everything. But our ability to kind of look at something critically and dialectically, I think has been lost in this very binary black and white world we live in. Good, bad. I mean, again, I find it gets complicated when you're talking about a president who does the things this president does, you know, because I do think, you know, it's been said it's not left. Right. It's right and wrong. Right. And it is very difficult to kind of do those, you know, moral equivalencies when you feel like one side of the ledger is really wrong, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. You know.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katie Couric]

So that, to me, is the real. The real challenge. You know, it's not two different perspectives on policy, like, how do you solve the homeless problem. Right. It is a way of doing business that feels wrong and unjust.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

You know, building of what, $400 million ballroom that is going to eclipse the White House without going through the proper, you know, process of getting permission and. Or loading the people.

[Trevor Noah]

It's law for everyone except me.

[Katie Couric]

Right. You know, and so I think that's. That's where it's become really difficult and challenging, I think, for a journalist.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, thankfully, difficult and challenging is sort of what you've specialized in. I think it's what many to what Eugene's saying, great journalists have specialized in. Difficult and challenging was, you know, covering a Gulf War Difficult and challenging was, you know, tracking a drug smuggling ring Difficult and challenging is finding a source informing people, trying to make it palatable or even digestible for a public. Genuinely, all I can say is I think myself and many other people, we're grateful to people like you because we don't realize how much of our knowledge is based on, as Eugene said, the work of other people. And then what we do is we turn around and we go, I don't need that. I don't need the news. And I don't read the news because, you know, I actually heard this thing the other day about how. And I'm like, yeah, where do you think you heard it from? Where do you think that person heard it from? Yeah, people just make it like it comes out of thin air. I actually saw a thing that said it's like, yeah, the same journalists that you will vilify, the same ones, are the ones who put out the news about how something that was reported a while ago has now changed. It's the same place. Like, I've always found it funny that people will go, the New York Times said this. The New York Times put our story now saying that something they reported on 10, 15 years ago was, like, wrong, not a correction, but they're saying like, hey, actually, we've just discovered this. And then people go see, the New York Times put out this thing where they. They. They found out that this many years ago, they were wrong. I'm like, yeah, but where did you hear this from? The New York Times. So you should be grateful that the thing exists in its imperfect state because it is still providing a service.

[Katie Couric]

But I also think people have to take the responsibility of being informed seriously.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, we want to be lazy. Katie, why are you doing this to us?

[Katie Couric]

We just want to. I was talking to some people in Virginia about the redistricting vote, and one of the people were saying. Somebody I was talking to said people felt like it was morally wrong. Gerrymandering is wrong. But I said, did they understand that this started in Texas by, you know, a mid census year request by the President of the United States to redistrict in Texas so there would be more Republican seats? Do they understand that was the genesis of all this? And then it happened in California and then North Carolina and then Missouri and now Virginia. And if people don't pay attention and don't understand, they have to be informed and they needed to understand. Well, Virginia is doing this because it started in Texas. And if the Democrats hadn't responded in California and Virginia, then the chances then it would be very lopsided for the midterm election. But it's sort of like. And did you know that in 2018 the Democrats proposed legislation, I think it was 2018, to end gerrymandering. Period.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, full stop.

[Katie Couric]

And no Republicans voted for it. So I just. I think people just need to have the background and educate themselves before they have an opinion.

[Eugene]

I think the assault on journalism is probably more on the journalism profession itself because it's not made as sexy and as essential. You know, people talk about police.

[Katie Couric]

Well, that's. Cause everyone thinks they are one.

[Eugene]

Yes, exactly. So I think maybe the battlefield. Where else we would see a journalist reporting in the battlefield? I think the new battlefield is exactly where the plagiarism is happening and the misinformation is happening on social media. I think now the journalist needs to hold that phone in front of their face as they held the microphone during the Gulf War and say, in this battlefield, this is the truth and this is not the truth. Cause right now I think we've just left it all up to people who have nice phones and nice lighting and too much time on their hands to tell the stories. I think the journalists need to go. So that's why I'm happy when I see big publications on social media accounts.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, I was asking about us. Is there a reason that you decided to go? Because you. You have gone to exactly to what Eugene said you've done that you've gone to where the people are.

[Katie Couric]

Well, that's I mean, it was pretty obvious. It didn't take a brain surgeon to see where the cops were going.

[Eugene]

Excuse me, Katie.

[Katie Couric]

No, not you. It didn't take a brain surgeon, though. So people in my profession to see that linear television news was declining, that people were increasingly getting their news and information online and that you had to then. And people, I think, in legacy media organizations were kind of caught flat footed because they had a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. They talk about analog dollars and digital pennies and this is where they were making the money. They didn't want to cannib their product, but as you know, their, their viewers got older and older and everyone else was, was looking at their phones for information. Now they're finally catching up and you're seeing, you know, network and local, even reporters, even though so many local newspapers like 2500, 2500 have closed since, I think 2004. But you're seeing them adapt to these new platforms where people are getting their information. And by the way, I listen on Instagram to somebody from the New York Times, even if it's a reporter, an opinion person, I listen to somebody from ABC News online. I still pay attention and consider the source of the information. And that's what I mean about media literacy. People need to understand their circumstances. Standards from different news outlets and organizations that are adhered to, you know, where information is vetted and sourced and edited and, you know, verified.

[Trevor Noah]

There's accountability.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah. And I think that it's been very hard with this flood of people just kind of giving information influencers. It's like, I'm sorry, where did you get that information? Why are you saying this? Where did this from. Come. Come from? But people can't. It's hard to discern who is legitimate and who's not when there's a sea of people all kind of talking to you on your phone.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, no, well, I mean, like I say, it's. It's one. It's literally, it's one step at a time. It's one challenge at a time. I love how much vigor you have for it, by the way, because, like, a lot of people would be like, I've done my time, I'm done. But you still have like the.

[Katie Couric]

I love it.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I mean. I can see it.

[Katie Couric]

You know why it's selfish, because I love learning about the world. I love understanding. So when I'm talking to somebody about a subject, if I'm talking to a former military person about the challenges of the war in Iran and drone Warfare. And what's changed? Like, I want to learn that, you know? So I feel like, selfishly, I'm learning something every day, and if I then can help by my ignorance or my desire to become more knowledgeable, can then help someone else be like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. That's interesting, or whatever. I feel like I'm serving myself and hopefully other people at the same time. If that makes sense.

[Trevor Noah]

That makes complete sense that you know

[Eugene]

you've reached your ultimate purpose, which serves

[Katie Couric]

you for, don't you? In the same speech last night, I said I became a journalist because I love to write and I'm very nosy and I am sort of insatiably curious, and it's hard because I feel frustrated. I think about, God, all this stuff I don't know and understand, but if I can carve out a little bit every day and learn something new or understand something more deeply, that's. That's so great. It's the greatest gift, isn't it? I mean, and I think people need to be open to new information and knowledge, and it's just. And then when you have an opinion about something, you know, and I like some of the stuff that we've talked about, I don't know. Right. And I have to go and study something before I have an opinion and talk to legitimate experts and really learn about something.

[Trevor Noah]

Podcaster Katie, you can't go study the things. We just need opinions now, Katie.

[Katie Couric]

But do you know what I mean?

[Trevor Noah]

Right? No research required, Katie.

[Eugene]

Verbal clickbait.

[Trevor Noah]

This is podcasting, Katie. Someone asks you a question, you go, this is the answer. This is podcasting, Katie. Trying to be informed here. What are you trying to do? Take Eugene's job.

[Katie Couric]

But. Right. I mean, I don't want to give an opinion. And like, when you were asking me about national security versus the public safety, I saw you do that.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I saw.

[Katie Couric]

Well, I would like to go back and really identify incidents where that happened or didn't happen so I could talk more intelligently about it.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I tell you, that is probably one of the greatest learnings we've had on this show over time is that the people who oftentimes have the most expertise and the people who are oftentimes the most well versed in any particular discipline also operate with higher levels of doubt than everyone else. It's a powerful and beautiful humility to see doctors, scientists, journalists, but I mean, at the top of their game, going, I don't know, I need to. Yeah, I'm not sure about that. Let Me, I actually don't know on. And you go like, wow. Oh, this is. In a strange way, it's like going. An expert is somebody who knows so much that they know how little they know.

[Katie Couric]

Yeah, right. Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean? They truly, like. They go, yeah, I don't. And then the rest of us are genuinely like, ah, I'm an expert in this. It's like, what do you know? I mean, I've watched a few videos, I've seen a few things. I know, but that thing there's is a gift that I hope you don't ever take for granted.

[Eugene]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

That doubt. Cause in your position, I'm not gonna lie, if I was in your position, I would be like, yo, let me. I tell you everything about the news. I know everything about everything. You can't tell me nothing. But for Katie Couric to go, I don't know, let me go and read up on this. Let me go. And even for me, just in that moment, it inspired me to be like, oh, yeah, don't forget that you can always go back and read. You can always go back and learn, and you can always admit that you just don't know.

[Katie Couric]

I mean, I think that I've been doing this long enough, and I'm old enough to have the confidence, you know, I'm sure there was a time where I would have just, like, been blah, blah, blah, you know? And even now I think, oh, gosh, am I gonna sound dumb or uninformed or even now uneducated about a certain thing? Like, what would David Sanger, the national security correspondent for the New York Times, say about this? What examples would he give? But I'd rather admit that I don't know than to say something that's wrong.

[Eugene]

All great debates are foiled by the risk of being wrong. That's what I think.

[Trevor Noah]

You're a real one.

[Eugene]

You've just proved it, Katie.

[Katie Couric]

I don't know.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you have. You're a real one. Thank you for joining us.

[Katie Couric]

No, this was really fun. So nice to meet you. Really enjoyed talking to you in your new turquoise Zara jacket. And. And this was very interesting. You know, you guys raised a lot of issues, asked a lot of questions, proposed a lot of interesting ideas.

[Trevor Noah]

Interesting.

[Katie Couric]

Challenged sort of the status quo and the way things are done and made me think a lot. So thank you.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you, Katie Kirk. This was genuinely a joy. Thank you so much.

[Katie Couric]

Thank you.

[Trevor Noah]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Production in partnership with Sirius xm. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiou. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown Random Other stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of what Now.

[Katie Couric]

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[Eugene]

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[Trevor Noah]

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[Eugene]

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[Eugene]

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