Meet Derek Fordjour – One of My Favorite People [VIDEO]

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Meet Derek Fordjour – One of My Favorite People"

Podcast Information:

• Title: What Now? with Trevor Noah
• Host/Producer: Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions
• Episode: Meet Derek Fordjour – One of My Favorite People [VIDEO]
• Release Date: May 8, 2025

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Introduction: Celebrating an Artistic Luminary

Trevor Noah opens the episode by introducing his guest, Derek Fordjour, whom he describes as one of his favorite people and a modern-day equivalent of historical artistic giants like Picasso or Michelangelo. Trevor lauds Derek's ability to intertwine history, identity, and joy into his art, making him a genre-defying and highly successful artist.

Trevor Noah [02:49]: "Why all work is kind of a scam, and what it means to create beauty even when no one's buying it yet."

Derek joins the conversation, and the episode sets the stage for an in-depth discussion about art, value, cultural identity, and the intricacies of the art world.

---

Early Life and Cultural Identity

Derek shares anecdotes from his upbringing, emphasizing the influence of his Ghanaian heritage. Both his parents are first-generation immigrants from Ghana, and Derek reflects on how this background shaped his worldview and artistic expression.

Derek Fordjour [07:01]: "What it means to be a black immigrant... it's a bit like you enter a game in action when you are an African immigrant and you come to America, but you have on a jersey and you're on a side and you're losing."

He narrates his father's journey from Ghana to America, highlighting the communal support his father received and the sacrifices made to pursue a medical career. These stories underscore the deep connection Derek feels to his roots.

---

Navigating the Art World: Gatekeeping and Value

A significant portion of the discussion delves into how the art world assigns value and the gatekeeping mechanisms that make it challenging for black artists to gain recognition. Derek critiques the arbitrary nature of art valuation, comparing it to perceived scams.

Trevor Noah [49:03]: "All work is a scam... because the value of that work is merely assigned by those who have the resources. It's all arbitrary."

Derek echoes this sentiment, explaining how the art market operates on "intersubjective realities," where collective belief sustains the value of art pieces regardless of their intrinsic worth. He emphasizes the importance of separating an artist's work from their personal narrative, a challenge he notes is particularly pronounced for black artists.

Derek Fordjour [32:09]: "In the art world, very differently. You will witness the cost of the Louis Vuitton bag go from $3 to $20 to 3 million."

---

Representation and Stereotypes in Art

The conversation touches on the impact of representation in art and the stereotypes that often accompany black artists. Derek points out the historical undervaluation of black artists and the subsequent effort required to break into the mainstream art scene.

Derek Fordjour [43:07]: "The art world, you're right, has been troubled. It's tough for us. But I have to acknowledge all of the artists that came before me and my peers to make this moment possible."

Trevor and Derek discuss the necessity of acknowledging the pioneers who paved the way for contemporary black artists, using examples like David Hammons and Norman Lewis to illustrate the often-overlooked contributions that have shaped the current art landscape.

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The Universal and Personal Nature of Art

Derek articulates his belief that art is fundamental to the human experience, serving as a medium for personal and collective expression. He shares his philosophy of maintaining a "firewall" between the creation process and the commercial aspects of art to preserve its authenticity.

Derek Fordjour [60:14]: "There's a firewall, at least in the mind of the artist, has to remain."

Trevor relates this to his experience in comedy, highlighting the parallels between artistic creation and comedic storytelling—both requiring a personal connection and authentic expression to resonate with audiences.

---

Art as a Passive Buff to Society

Drawing from his visit to Ukraine, Trevor Noah shares his observation of how art—or the absence of it—affects societal spaces.

Trevor Noah [70:53]: "Art is like a passive buff to society."

Derek expands on this by discussing how public art, such as murals in train stations, can transform everyday environments, making spaces more vibrant and culturally resonant.

---

Cultural Exchange and Global Perspectives

The episode explores the dynamics of cultural exchange through art and comedy, emphasizing the importance of understanding and respecting diverse cultural contexts. Derek and Trevor discuss how traveling and immersing oneself in different cultures can enrich creative expression and foster universal connections.

Trevor Noah [87:26]: "There is no one way to be right... there's not the way for the world to be right."

---

Conclusion: The Enduring Power of Art

As the conversation winds down, Derek and Trevor reflect on the enduring significance of art in fostering understanding, challenging stereotypes, and enriching human experience. They advocate for greater appreciation and engagement with art across all levels of society.

Derek Fordjour [98:53]: "There's something beautiful that you find about the experience... as long as I put enough truth in the work, where the work is not merely to perform aesthetically, they're part of, of the conversation."

Final Thoughts: The episode wraps up with practical information for listeners interested in Derek Fordjour's work, including locations of his public murals and upcoming gallery shows. Trevor expresses his admiration for Derek's ability to blend personal narrative with universal themes, reinforcing the episode's central message: art is a powerful tool for storytelling and societal connection.

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Notable Quotes:

• Derek Fordjour [00:02]: "It's kind of like when you're in a barber's chair... there's a point where you're like, if I stay in this. Uh huh. It's not gonna get better."

• Trevor Noah [02:49]: "Why all work is kind of a scam, and what it means to create beauty even when no one's buying it yet."

• Derek Fordjour [07:01]: "What it means to be a black immigrant... it's a bit like you enter a game in action..."

• Trevor Noah [49:03]: "All work is a scam... because the value of that work is merely assigned by those who have the resources."

• Derek Fordjour [32:09]: "The art world... you will witness the cost of the Louis Vuitton bag go from $3 to $20 to 3 million."

• Derek Fordjour [43:07]: "The art world has been troubled. It's tough for us. But I have to acknowledge all of the artists that came before me..."

• Trevor Noah [70:53]: "Art is like a passive buff to society."

• Derek Fordjour [98:53]: "There's something beautiful about the experience... as long as I put enough truth in the work."

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Art and Value: The art market operates on collective belief systems that assign arbitrary value to art pieces, often influenced by gatekeepers and the historical undervaluation of black artists.

2. Cultural Identity: Derek's Ghanaian heritage profoundly influences his artistic expression, highlighting the importance of cultural roots in shaping creative work.

3. Representation Matters: Accurate and respectful representation in art is crucial for challenging stereotypes and fostering inclusivity within the art world.

4. Art as Essential Humanity: Art is a fundamental aspect of human existence, serving as a medium for personal and collective storytelling that transcends cultural boundaries.

5. Navigating Challenges: Black artists face unique challenges in the art world, including gatekeeping and the need to separate personal narratives from commercial success to maintain authenticity.

6. Global Perspectives: Engaging with diverse cultures enriches artistic expression and promotes universal connections, emphasizing that there is no singular way to create or appreciate art.

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Where to See Derek Fordjour's Art:

• Public Mural Location: 145th Street on the 2 or 3 Line Stop Shop, New York City
• Upcoming Show: September in Los Angeles at David Kordansky Gallery

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This episode offers a profound exploration of the intersections between art, culture, and value, providing listeners with valuable insights into Derek Fordjour's artistic journey and the broader challenges faced by black artists in the contemporary art landscape.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

How do you know when something's finished?

[Derek Forjaw]

I think there's a creeping feeling that you get where you're like, I'm not making this better. You know, it's kind of like when you're in a barber's chair, like the longer you're there. This guy can only remove hair. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I know, exactly.

[Derek Forjaw]

You shouldn't be there too long. It's like a moment that if you're like, it's been a while, you want.

[Trevor Noah]

To look for a mirror, there's diminishing returns in a way.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Like there's a point where you're like, if I stay in this. Uh huh. It's not gonna get better. I'm sure you, like, write a joke and you're like, that's too many words. I did too much to get there. You know, it's enough. Leave it. There's like a instinct, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Mine I think, is more. Do I still feel this way?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, that's the same thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that's. That's more mine. My guest on today's podcast is someone I'm lucky enough to call a friend and a human being who has achieved one of the hardest things in the world, which is becoming extremely successful and genre defying in many ways. As an artist, I always think about how crazy it must have been back in the days to be friends with someone like Picasso or Michelangelo or any of those people. And I am not comparing artists, but for me, Derek Forjaw is the modern equivalent. He's an artist. He's a painter, a sculptor, one of my favorite people who's able to bring history, identity, and joy to life in a way that stops you in your tracks. We've known each other for a while now, and I've always been inspired by how deeply he sees the world and how beautifully he translates that onto the canvas. And so in this conversation, we get into how art messes with value in the best way, why all work is kind of a scam, and what it means to create beauty even when no one's buying it yet. I think you're really going to walk away from this conversation with your mind spinning and hopefully your heart full, just like I always do. This is what now with Trevor Noah. Rolling. All right, Derek Forger, what's going on, man?

[Derek Forjaw]

Hello, Trevor.

[Trevor Noah]

How are you gonna go and get a block nose when we're doing a podcast, bro?

[Derek Forjaw]

You blow. You blow me up immediately. About the nose?

[Trevor Noah]

No, because you know why?

[Derek Forjaw]

Self conscious about.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but okay, let me Explain. First of all, I apologize. I didn't know you were self conscious about it. The reason I have to call it out is because some people will be hearing your voice for the first time.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's true.

[Trevor Noah]

Some people.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's true.

[Trevor Noah]

And then they'll think that that's how you speak.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. I have a very different voice than what I have today.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

So it's similar, but it's. I know you're nasally today.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But you say you're not sick.

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, I can't be sick. I can't. I'm an American.

[Trevor Noah]

Let me tell you. I worked at the Daily Show. I was in the office for eight years. I hosted for seven years.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

No one ever admitted being sick the entire time. No one.

[Derek Forjaw]

But wouldn't you say that's also like entertainment culture? Like nobody wants to. Like, like, first of all, you're the boss to each other.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Do they admit it?

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's a good question. Actually, I never considered my position.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, you don't. Because you're such a man of the people.

[Trevor Noah]

You just don't actually really never consider that. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

You don't think.

[Trevor Noah]

No. You know what it also is in South. It's because in South Africa we don't really have that.

[Derek Forjaw]

What? Like. Oh, the culture of.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, like in. I think in a. In America more than most places. Maybe in Europe, actually, to a certain extent, the hierarchy in an office place is respected in a different way.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, it's true. So it's true.

[Trevor Noah]

Managers don't realize that rooms move differently when they step into them.

[Derek Forjaw]

Not at all.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But I would argue in most parts of at least South Africa, I know for sure. Yeah. There's like a boss and a manager, but a lot of the time that person just came from where you were.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right, exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

So there's a certain level of familiarity.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, it's true. I mean, even in Ghana, I mean, there's this wonderful thing you observe right away where the boss and his subordinate may hold hands. Like same sex.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

And it's a way of like, let me have a chat with you. And that's totally normal to hold hands. In fact, by the time we leave, my brother and I hold hands while we're walking around. See, you're trying not to smile because you've been.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm not trying not to smile. I'm smiling.

[Derek Forjaw]

Your smile was just growing. Yeah, right. The whole thing. This is completely normal.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no. Okay. I'll tell you why I was smiling.

[Derek Forjaw]

Why?

[Trevor Noah]

Because I was thinking. Because I'll start by saying this. I'm not ignorant to the idea of men holding hands.

[Derek Forjaw]

You know this. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because in South Africa it's the same. Same thing. So depending on where you're from, people would hold hands. People. I remember in the Middle east men hold pinky fingers. I don't know what they do in Ghana.

[Derek Forjaw]

Smile.

[Trevor Noah]

But yeah, no, they hold pinky fingers. It's quite normal. You like lock pinkies. Two friends. Men.

[Derek Forjaw]

And you walk.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And you walk. You walk hand in hand.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's just a pinky. That's.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. You see, everyone. Everyone thinks one part of it is weird.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

What I found weird in that situation is there's something almost more threatening.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

In your boss calling scary and giving you the hand. Hey, let me hold my hand. Let me talk to you for a second.

[Derek Forjaw]

That is scarier.

[Trevor Noah]

The idea that somebody's gonna berate me or chastise me while holding my hand.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's true, that could be. It could be threatening.

[Trevor Noah]

But this is, this is the trauma I think I have from being a kid. The worst beating you would get is where your parent was holding on to you.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh yeah. Because you can't run.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. You can't run.

[Derek Forjaw]

You know about this? I haven't talked about this in years.

[Trevor Noah]

Talked about what?

[Derek Forjaw]

Being beaten. Like, like affectionately. Like it's like affectionately. Well, we're speaking about it affectionately.

[Trevor Noah]

Like it's, it's normal. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

We, we joke about the objects with which I was. I mean, I don't. I didn't want to.

[Trevor Noah]

What's the craziest object you got hit with?

[Derek Forjaw]

The craziest object was probably skillets and.

[Trevor Noah]

Pots from the kitchen.

[Derek Forjaw]

Cuz it's a kitchen throne or hits? Both, man.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

I mean it was, it was me though. I have two brothers. They were great. She never. I mean they didn't require anything.

[Trevor Noah]

You, you victim blaming.

[Derek Forjaw]

Don't blame yourself.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I tell you, I am not for it.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But it was quite, it was quite normal.

[Derek Forjaw]

It was, it was.

[Trevor Noah]

I never got hit with a pot or a pan.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Cuz my mom didn't cook much, so I think that's probably why I was saved from that environment.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But I got. I got hit.

[Derek Forjaw]

What did you get hit with?

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, everything really. High heels. High heels were terrible.

[Derek Forjaw]

I'm not laughing either.

[Trevor Noah]

There's nothing I got hit with high heels. Very few belts, I guess because my mom didn't really wear belts.

[Derek Forjaw]

You've thought about this too?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I mean, I think. Oh, okay. I'll tell you why. So now that I am at an age where I think my mom accepts that I'm an adult, and I feel like I'm an adult and you're the.

[Derek Forjaw]

The same plane with her.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

You can both reflect.

[Trevor Noah]

I've now decided to, like, open up the statute of limitations, right. And say to her, yeah, yo, lady, what were you doing?

[Derek Forjaw]

Did you try. Did you soft try something to see if she was ready? Because you have to.

[Trevor Noah]

I think every few years, I probably said something to her.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay, see, that's still respect.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Like, maybe in my 20s. Maybe in my 20s, I said to her, ah, man, the beatings you used to give me. And the way she'd react would be like, you want another one?

[Derek Forjaw]

That sounds exactly. That's my mom. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Where are both of your parents from?

[Derek Forjaw]

Both of my parents are from Ghana.

[Trevor Noah]

You're first generation, right?

[Derek Forjaw]

First generation, same tribe. So both of my parents are Asante. So, you know, we say Ashanti, but in Ghana. We say Asante, but 100%. So I remember my dad telling me in the. Oh, I don't know. I must have been in kindergarten. He goes, I want to tell you something. He sat me down and he goes, if the entire Ashanti kingdom perishes tomorrow but you're alive, then the Ashanti kingdom lives. And that's the way he explained where we were from and what it meant to be part of a tribe that the entire kingdom lives in. You and mind you, I've been like, Tennessee, having this conversation as, like, a kindergartner, but that was, like, the early framing of, like, what's in Our Blood, you know?

[Trevor Noah]

Sounds like the opening of a Black Panther movie.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, it really does. The trilogy scene opens up right. Young Derek, little black kid in Tennessee.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. 100%.

[Trevor Noah]

Camera comes into, like, the little house. Where did you live? A house. I'm assuming a small, little house in Memphis.

[Derek Forjaw]

It was a little apartment, actually.

[Trevor Noah]

A little apartment? Yeah. Even better. Marvel loves apartments.

[Derek Forjaw]

Could we start with a kid?

[Trevor Noah]

Superheroes love apartments.

[Derek Forjaw]

It has to be an apartment.

[Trevor Noah]

Apartments are better than houses for superheroes.

[Derek Forjaw]

But it has to start with the kid being bullied, being called African Booty Scratcher.

[Trevor Noah]

Were you called that?

[Derek Forjaw]

Were you not?

[Trevor Noah]

I was in Africa. Who's gonna call me that?

[Derek Forjaw]

That's true. This is true. That would be awkward.

[Trevor Noah]

Who was gonna say to me, that would be, I'm Trevor, you're African Booty Scratcher. I'm like, yeah, we're all African booty scratchers. What do you mean?

[Derek Forjaw]

No, it's true.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, you got called African booty scratcher?

[Derek Forjaw]

Totally. It's a thing.

[Trevor Noah]

This was the full sentence.

[Derek Forjaw]

My son was called the same thing.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you're lying.

[Derek Forjaw]

I was shocked. I'm telling you, this is. Now, Now. I was like, what? I was like, are you. I thought he was spoofing me. It's like. No, it's a thing. Well, it's a funny thing. Wait, but.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, wait, let's take it back. So your parents moved from Ghana?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes, to Tennessee. So I'll give you even more drama for your, like, movie. The movie.

[Trevor Noah]

Let's do it.

[Derek Forjaw]

My dad really just wanted to be a doctor. And the entire village helped conspire to get him to America to become a doctor. So he tells a story. I have no idea how true any of this is, of, like, leaving the village with a. A bag of money that everybody pitched in to give him on his journey away. So he literally was like saving the entire. He was going to be a doctor.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Derek Forjaw]

That was the deal. And then my mother left at 16 to go.

[Trevor Noah]

So this is like a village village then.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, well, my dad was from Kumasi, which is like another. It's like a second city.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

After Accra. Have you been able to Ghana?

[Trevor Noah]

I've never been to Ghana.

[Derek Forjaw]

What?

[Trevor Noah]

You gonna take me, Treva?

[Derek Forjaw]

Really? You have not. I've got to take you.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't want to. So I talk to my friends about this all the time. Anywhere in Africa.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't want to just go as a tourist. I'd rather go visit. I want to go to visit my friend's house or visit, because going as a tourist is too familiar to me. Like, if I go as a tourist to Italy. Yeah, it is very much. I'm like, ah, wow. This is Italy. This is.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. You get a guide.

[Trevor Noah]

When I'm in Ghana, I know the food, I know the music. I know I even understand the people. Of course you do. You know what I mean? So I need my people there to take me deeper. Otherwise I'm like, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna take pictures of little African things.

[Derek Forjaw]

Stay in your hotel. Right?

[Trevor Noah]

Come on.

[Derek Forjaw]

Drive by. It's true.

[Trevor Noah]

Come on.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay, so you wanna hang differently. Yeah. And we struggle with this too, because unfortunately, my brothers and I don't speak the language, which is. I mean, language is the. Is the. It's the. It's the passkey to Korea.

[Trevor Noah]

No, it is the thing.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's the thing. So we don't have that. And even though we're English speaking, because of the British.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's still different. So when I go without my parents, it feels really different.

[Trevor Noah]

There's like a piece of Ghana that you. You're locked out of a little bit. Huh?

[Derek Forjaw]

It's like you approach the groups while everybody's speaking three and they change to English because it's polite to do. They want you to hear, but you're still.

[Trevor Noah]

It's not the same.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's not the same.

[Trevor Noah]

South Africans will do the same thing, but you can feel that it's almost like someone took the spice in a meal and washed it and then gave.

[Derek Forjaw]

It to you because you can't handle the spice. Look, there is that. Of all the places, I mean, Ghana is the most welcoming to English speakers, to people returning home, yearning for culture. It's the best place.

[Trevor Noah]

Isn't it getting overrun by Americans now, though?

[Derek Forjaw]

Stop saying that.

[Trevor Noah]

Asked the question. I'm not saying. I'm not saying anything.

[Derek Forjaw]

No. You know why?

[Trevor Noah]

You know I said, isn't it? There's a question mark at the end.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, I won't say that. The kid that was called African Booty Scratcher.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Needs all of those kids that call them that to return. So there's no overrun. We need more to go back. Like.

[Trevor Noah]

So you're saying no, it's not.

[Derek Forjaw]

I'm saying no.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

I'm saying I've heard a lot of stories saying no, but I also know what you're saying. Like, I'm saying one thing with my eyes and another with my mouth. Right. We could do this. Right? So, no, it's not overrun.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I tell you? My favorite stories have been my Ghanaian friends complaining about black Americans coming to Ghana, and they'll complain about them as if they're like, white people.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, totally.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

I mean, on some level, I mean, that's. But look, I choose to stand for the marrying of the marriage of, like, the African cultural experience and the African American and the British American and everywhere else in the diaspora, we exist. I mean, I think you. You definitely represent that.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I love it.

[Derek Forjaw]

And so that's what I'm on. You know what I mean?

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

Like, it's not overrun. There's space enough.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

But, you know, what's happening is now they're like encampments in suburbs that are for, like, African Americans, and it's being marketed as such. And so as an African American, you could buy a home the.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, in an African American enclave in Ghana.

[Derek Forjaw]

I think it's fine. I don't know.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, if it works, it works.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's a big if, right? But it works.

[Trevor Noah]

It works.

[Derek Forjaw]

It. It brings people back. We have to take you to a slave castle because. Have you ever been to any.

[Trevor Noah]

Huh? That's a sentence. That's never.

[Derek Forjaw]

Let me watch you deal with it.

[Trevor Noah]

That's a.

[Derek Forjaw]

Let me watch you deal with that.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't feel like there's ever been a time in history when that sentence has ended.

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, but you have to experience, because, first of all, I didn't know that you hadn't done this, so I'm even more convicted about it.

[Trevor Noah]

I've been to slave castles, but I need to know why this one in particular.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay, well, I think there's a moment, well, at least for me, where you go to the door of no return, and it's in all the castles.

[Trevor Noah]

Oftentimes it'll be like the port near the port somewhere there.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

They bring them in, and there's a little area where they're gonna get loaded onto a boat. And that's the area of no return.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

It's similar. In the one I went to was in Zanzibar. Yes, yes, Very similar.

[Derek Forjaw]

So, first of all, I mean, East African slave trade was different, just as brutal, but I think the dynamics are different. East, west, but there's always that moment in the castle where you stand between where you were and where you're going. And for me, when I stand there, I get it. I get the whole diaspora. Like, I understand my experiences in Brazil and Canada, you know, parts of Europe where there are Africans. Like, I get it. Like, we all came through that door, and I don't know that there's another physical location that explains the movement of black peoples in the world quite like that point for me.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I feel you.

[Derek Forjaw]

You know, what do you experience there?

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, it's. It's. It's a complicated collection of feelings. Because on the one hand, there's relief. I'll be honest. There's relief that it is now history.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. That it's there.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. So, like, I. No, but what I mean by that is it's over. Yeah, There's. There is something I feel whenever I go to these places where I'm like, damn, I'm glad that's done right. I know there's other things to deal with, but I'm like, I'm glad that's done right. That's true, you know? Cause I could also be here, but not as a tourist.

[Derek Forjaw]

But you feel that in your body, too.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, there's just, like, an element of. Okay. And then there's another side of me that's like, damn, this is. It's heavy.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's dark. Yeah. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

For instance, I've never taken a picture there. And not because I judge people who do take pictures there. I just.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, there is something. It's like a sacred site.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. It's like I go, do I take a picture of me here?

[Derek Forjaw]

And then how do you. What?

[Trevor Noah]

How do I pose? Do I smile?

[Derek Forjaw]

I. Do it evolve? I see the smiles, I see the fists, I see the somber.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. The sambo. Yeah. But. And I get it, because those are all the feelings that people are having. But let's go back to your dad, because I want to understand.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

This journey of Derek, because I. Because I know you.

[Derek Forjaw]

This is.

[Trevor Noah]

This is the thing I love about doing podcasts with people I know, is I realize how many things I don't know about them.

[Derek Forjaw]

Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

Because I would never ask this in a conversation, though. We've taken all the spice out, essentially. Yeah, yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

But it's a version of ourselves.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. It always will be. But like, your dad. So your dad comes here.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Was he already married to your mom?

[Derek Forjaw]

No, but they were dating. And, you know, we found some lovely love letters that they wrote to each other. So my mom went to school in England for nursing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

And.

[Trevor Noah]

And your dad was going to be a doctor.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Isn't that. Man.

[Trevor Noah]

You guys are Ghanaian, right? This is, like, Ghanaian, right? Proudly. Doctor, Lawyer, right. Engineer, right?

[Derek Forjaw]

Exactly. This is it, right?

[Trevor Noah]

A real.

[Derek Forjaw]

This is a real professional.

[Trevor Noah]

This is a profession.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's a proper.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that's like a. You know. Okay, so wait, so your parents. So you're born in the US I am born in.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Memphis, Tennessee.

[Trevor Noah]

Why Memphis? I always want to know why immigrants land where they do and why they call that home.

[Derek Forjaw]

Dude, I really want someone to research African immigration. Like, we know the story of how the Irish came. We know how the Italians came, but I don't know that anyone has really studied, like, the movement of Africans to America. And I would just love to hear the story because we have so many cousins, Ghanaian and Nigerian, in these far out places in Ohio or Texas, Tezas, we call it, like, all these places, and we're just now of age to, like, share experiences. But I think it happened, like, maybe the 60s is when it really picked up. But yeah, so my dad came here. My mother was in England for nursing school. And there were all these strange things about growing up. Like, we would eat beans with our eggs in the morning and I just thought this is what people. It's normal until you, like, share with a friend, like, wait, you guys don't eat beans? They're like, beans. Why are you eating beans for breakfast?

[Trevor Noah]

Were you in a black neighborhood or a white neighborhood?

[Derek Forjaw]

Where were you, bro? So black. I said African booty scratcher. Follow Trevor.

[Trevor Noah]

Come on. No, but. Come on, dude. How am I supposed to know? I don't even know. First of all, I don't even know the term.

[Derek Forjaw]

Listen, white kids are not gonna call you African booty scratcher, generally speaking. That's just too, like. They just.

[Trevor Noah]

It's too what?

[Derek Forjaw]

It's to a lot of things.

[Trevor Noah]

It's too what?

[Derek Forjaw]

It's a lot of things. It could be a lot of. I have a list, like, why they would say that.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know why.

[Derek Forjaw]

First of all, there's too many syllables. It's too funny. It's too. You know what I mean?

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, okay. You mean on that side you say it's too much swag?

[Derek Forjaw]

It's just a lot of swag. It's like an insult that will also make you laugh. It, like, hurts and tickles you in equal parts. That's very black. It's very African. You know what I mean? Like, I'm offending you. And you love it. So we grew up in a very black community, okay. And we're talking about, you know, the 70s, 80s, so this, you know, Memphis. I mean, Dr. King died in 68.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. This is full on segregation.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. So my father, actually, we're just learning a lot about, like, the rage he had about, like, going to graduate school to. To. To. To dental school. Because he was like, I think, the second black oral surgeon in the state. But he's very African, so he doesn't know about black history.

[Trevor Noah]

They don't know about, like, black American history.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, they don't know.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

I also wish that there was, like, a place that if you come from an African country, you could go, like, learn black history before you engage with society.

[Trevor Noah]

Why?

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, because what it means to be a black immigrant, as we're seeing at this time, I mean, this statement now has lots of weight. You also have the double burden of understanding racial politics. So you don't just enter. It's a bit like you enter a game in action when you are an African immigrant and you come to America, but you have on a jersey and you're on a side and you're losing. And the refs are really mean. Oh, that's a great analogy. Oh, man, that's a great. Don't get hit, like, balls are flying. So. But nobody explains, you know, the history, the game. So he.

[Trevor Noah]

I think that's why it creates a lot of conflict.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So I remember the first time I discovered this, I was doing comedy shows. This was like, way back, way, way, way back. Long before Daily show, long before anything.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

So I was doing standup shows at colleges around.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, that's a good education.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then one day, I got booked. I forget where this university was, but I got booked by the African Student Council.

[Derek Forjaw]

The African Student Union.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, the African Student Union.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Trevor Noah]

So I get booked by them, right? And so I get to the campus and I ask, mistakenly, I said, I'm looking for the African American Student Union.

[Derek Forjaw]

Wrong group.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And these people were like, oh, we'll take you there. And they took me there.

[Derek Forjaw]

And you were like.

[Trevor Noah]

And I got there and they went, wait, no, we didn't. And no one knows me. So it's not like someone's going, oh, Trevor, Noah. They're just like, what are you here for? I said, I'm here for comedy.

[Derek Forjaw]

This is great.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, where I was like, oh, the African American Student Union booked me. They're like, nah, we don't have any bookings today. We don't.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

It goes around, goes. I call my managers, my team is great. Finally gets back. They go, no, you're at the wrong place. It's the African Student Union. So they come and pick me up, right. And when we're in the car going across campus, I go, what am I missing here? And then they tell me, oh, there used to be one union, right. Which was. The black people called it the Black Student Union.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And they said there was so much friction between the non American black students.

[Derek Forjaw]

Do you see my partner?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, I can see it already. I can see I'm triggering you here.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. You know, when I hear that, I hear the tragedy in a few ways. One, that blackness is flattened to just black because it's quite heterogeneous. There's a lot of mix inside of that. We know this.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Even as a West African and a South African, there's worlds of difference. So it's kind of absurd to fit it all in the first place to black. So that's one tragic thing. The other is the splintering that happens and then the potential tensions that arise, which are not always the case. Everybody's kind of happy when they have their own place, but it never absolves you from the unfortunate necessity that you must advocate collectively.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. Because you are oppressed collectively.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. So the splintering is comfortable for entertainment, for culture, so long as you can reunite when it's time to advocate. But that doesn't always happen.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that doesn't.

[Derek Forjaw]

So that's the tragedy that I feel. Right. One that it's already flattened in the first place. But also it splinters a collective action.

[Trevor Noah]

It also creates a type of resentment I found. So for instance, I would meet African immigrants who would speak about African Americans.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, bad.

[Trevor Noah]

Just. They would just be like, why? Why don't they, like, they're like Republican.

[Derek Forjaw]

In their white people.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Worse if we're honest.

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, worse. Because they don't. Entitled.

[Trevor Noah]

They don't want to work.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Let me tell you something about black Americans.

[Derek Forjaw]

Crack me up with this.

[Trevor Noah]

They don't want to work.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

They don't go to school. They love to do crime. They love to do crime. They love to do crime. Let me tell you something.

[Derek Forjaw]

Love to do crime.

[Trevor Noah]

They are not African American. They're just American. I don't know why they put African. The way they are dressing their pants, their trousers are falling and you're like, wow, this is like full on, dude.

[Derek Forjaw]

I have. I have. I have relatives like this.

[Trevor Noah]

That's why I love the idea of having a school.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Because what will happen to a lot of Africans, and I'm sure you've seen this is a lot of those Africans who come in with like the respectability politics.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

One day they come up against the brunt American racism in some way, shape or form.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

And they're shaken forever.

[Derek Forjaw]

Forever. I mean, I have also that point. I have. I have an uncle, Uncle Manny. He's now passed. And it wasn't until his later years that he talked about. He lived in Minnesota. Lisa, my cousin Lisa, erased her. And he talked about like being used because he realized that, oh, I wasn't angry. So he came in the 60s, had success as a corporate guy, but he was a token. And I don't wanna reduce his life. I mean, he was a hardworking man.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm with you.

[Derek Forjaw]

But he, in his later years, looking back now with a black understanding of the identity, he's like, oh, man, I think they used me. You know, like, I think I was part of this game. And it really is. You're talking about those moments. Sometimes it happens later. I hope, Trevor, that we're in a different world now where social media is cool. Like, you see Nigerian weddings, you have these shows. Like, kids, if you're 6, 7, 8, in today's world, you have Afrobeats. There's all this cultural export. It's just like a different time. And, I mean, maybe I'm. I don't wanna be Pollyanna, but I just think it's different.

[Trevor Noah]

I've noticed more kids growing up today are comfortable with their culture in ways that kids weren't before.

[Derek Forjaw]

Totally.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, I know all of my Indian friends growing up.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Were. I mean, they were ashamed of. Especially if they grew up in England. Yeah. It was just like, don't open your lunchbox.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. We all have that. Yeah. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And now.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Now on TikTok, people are like, where do I find the best Egusi? Where do I find the best Jollof rice? Where do I find that? You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not even just a pride, but there's like. There's almost. I don't know, man. There's character that comes with it now. Yeah. But it's also not just comfort.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's cool. It is cool. I think. Now that's a Cool. Now, that's a very important distinction. Comfort happened some while back now. Cool is definitely the thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Like, to be African and to live in America, I think is cool. When I grew up, it was kind of like we would say to our black friends, like, yeah, you know. Yeah, I'm Ghanaian. Like, you went African. Where do a dance? Stand up. You know, like, bro, I'm really African. Like, trust me, say something. You know, it was like that kind of, like, shakedown. And now that we're older, we realize that they also just didn't. That splintering. They didn't want to happen. And then there was also this, like, envious thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Derek Forjaw]

Because they're like, dude, we don't know where we came from. Like, we don't know our origins. You know, when we got old enough, they talked about that. I was like, oh, that was like, part envy. Like, it was. They admired it on some level. And. And they were also envious of it. And I also appreciated differently what it. What it means to go back to the town of my mother's mother. That is like the. That's. You know, we are matrilineal. But to know that is to, like, locate your lineage. That's part of the slow violence that happened in America.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I'll often say we talk about slavery as being one of the most heinous things that happened in history. And it is.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But I don't think we speak Enough about how cruel it was to not just steal a people from their place, but steal a place from their people.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, there you go.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean?

[Derek Forjaw]

That's what happened on the other side.

[Trevor Noah]

Because they robbed people. I think of it for myself.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yep.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yep.

[Trevor Noah]

There are moments when the world will throw you around. People wanna label you, not label you.

[Derek Forjaw]

Of course.

[Trevor Noah]

No matter what it is.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

If I pause and I breathe, I go. You can take everything away from me.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

You can even take my. My citizenship from a country.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm not South African anymore. But you know what? My Xhosa lineage.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I can. I can paint it for you. I can paint it for you and I can show you each that's little like, you know what I mean? Which name took us where and how exactly. Do you get what I'm saying? And I think that thing.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

People take for granted how beautiful it is.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

To know why you do what you do.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Because it comes from a long story that was told before you. We're going this conversation right after this short break.

[Derek Forjaw]

So I remember Roots. I don't know if.

[Trevor Noah]

So for the show.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, the show. Right, exactly. So we had a few iterations of it, but when we grew up, it was the first iteration from Alex Haley, the author who wrote Roots. And it was, I think, for a long time, like the most watched miniseries. Black white American households were obsessed with Roots.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

And it created a narrative for African Americans that explained their. Their roots. In this very detailed, multi generational story, the old African, you see Kunta Kenta as a young man, and then you see him as an old African. And so Kunta Kinte was in the lexicon, in the whole thing. And then years later, we found out that some of the details in that story were fabricated, that Alex Haley wrote. And so it wasn't all true. When it came out, it was like, this is all true. This is factual. This is factual. And I've. You know, and that was part of the strength of it. And then years later, we found out that some of it wasn't true and it didn't matter because people needed a story.

[Trevor Noah]

I think it also doesn't matter because all stories aren't true.

[Derek Forjaw]

Exactly. History is itself a fabrication. I love your bit about nations and anthems. You know, it's like it's all. And so, I mean, I love both sides of that. That I knew it when it was factual and it was. And then when it was something that was falsified and it didn't matter. The Power did not. The power of the story didn't change.

[Trevor Noah]

How do you think that informs your art? Cause when I think of your art, I think of you as a storyteller. And not in, like, a highfalutin way. By the way, like, let's preface all of it by saying this. Yes. Derek Forjaw is easily considered by many, especially who, like, know what they're talking about. You're considered a luminary of the art world.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, wow.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you really are. And it's not easy to get to the place that you've gotten too. Like, in. In the art world. It's also, let's be honest, five times harder to get there as a black man. Like, randomly, like a black person. Yeah. But I think less so in the NBA, let's put it that way.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, Trevor, you say some of the wildest things.

[Trevor Noah]

What are you talking about?

[Derek Forjaw]

And it's totally appropriate.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm saying there are some areas that are still way harder to give you another one.

[Derek Forjaw]

Because that was.

[Trevor Noah]

As a black person.

[Derek Forjaw]

Give me one more. One more.

[Trevor Noah]

What do you mean?

[Derek Forjaw]

Like, it's just. Just another one. Like, so we have the idea you.

[Trevor Noah]

Want to go into music. If you're a black man walking into music, no one's going, like, I don't know.

[Derek Forjaw]

Let's hear something.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know about that. Let's hear, what are you made of?

[Derek Forjaw]

No, that's true.

[Trevor Noah]

But the art world.

[Derek Forjaw]

You're right. You're right. This is true.

[Trevor Noah]

The art world is the most gatekept gatekeeping that has ever existed in the history of gatekeeping.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's fair.

[Trevor Noah]

So what I wanna. Like, so the reason I wanna preface it with that is because your art holds a special place in the storytelling.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Of the intersection, I believe, between African American history.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, but I want to know how much the idea you just talked about informs how you perceive your art. Because you. What you just said was crucial. Right. We all need stories.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right? Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But the facts of the story are less relevant than the story itself.

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, I think, like, I love the question. And I think about. I think about you that way. Like, what? The shock I just had about what you just said. You have the authority, the moral authority to make certain comments.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, man. I just have authority with you. What do you mean you got authority with me? If you're offended, I'm. Then I'm screwed.

[Derek Forjaw]

What kind of authority you got?

[Trevor Noah]

What I mean is, like, if you're offended, there's only. I mean, we're friends.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's True. It's true. That's very true. But I mean, even publicly, right? That.

[Trevor Noah]

I just think. I just think sometimes what you do, and I understand why you'll do this. I actually think it's a very African thing. You will dismiss. A lot of people, do this. You'll dismiss how hard it was for you to get there. There's a certain element of you being like, no, no, no. It's hard for all of us. And I'm not saying it's not hard for everyone.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But I'm saying what you chose was particularly hard.

[Derek Forjaw]

I mean, it's tr. Okay, so it's true. So you. And again, this is hard. This is what's hard about talking to you.

[Trevor Noah]

And let me clarify this for people. I don't mean painting is hard. Art is already hard. I'm talking about getting into the art world and being considered a verifiable part of it.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You see what I'm saying?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. So now you're forcing me to have a real conversation.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, that's what.

[Derek Forjaw]

You know what I mean? I guess that's why I'm here.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, that's why we always.

[Derek Forjaw]

I'm like, damn, when have we not.

[Trevor Noah]

Had a real conversation?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, this is what she. This is what he does. Like. Cause I'm so well attuned to, like, switching the conversation given the context and how it's going to be received.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you.

[Derek Forjaw]

So there's a lot of posturing and withholding that's necessary because with art, you want the conversation to be about the work and you don't want the. The traps to happen where it gets into places that you have no investment, you see?

[Trevor Noah]

But that's something I feel like is also unique to a black artist.

[Derek Forjaw]

It is.

[Trevor Noah]

I'll give you an example.

[Derek Forjaw]

Absolutely.

[Trevor Noah]

Vincent van Gogh, right?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Very good at that pronunciation.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I mean, you have to be.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. So you've been to the museum. Did you go?

[Trevor Noah]

Actually, haven't. Have. I haven't either.

[Derek Forjaw]

I haven't either.

[Trevor Noah]

I haven't. I don't think I have.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

But they never talk about his art without talking about his story.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right?

[Trevor Noah]

His. His health, his mental health, the way he saw the world, what he was going through, the medicine he was on. Picasso. I've never heard anyone talk about Picasso and just be like, eh, Picasso, the painting. No, they'll tell you about his journeys and his travels to Africa and the way he saw women and the loves, the passion, the loves who informed him and how his heart was broken. You know what I mean? There is no artist. Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, you name it. There are none of them where their story is not part of their art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, this is true. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And it's never seen as an excuse. It's never seen as something that leaves a blemish on their work in any way. However, to your point, with black artists, I find, for the most part, in speaking to you and many other black artists, the art world wants your story.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

But not like the rough edges, not the messy parts. Yeah, not the messy part of it.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. I was looking at this idea called stereotype threat, which I came across 20 years ago. There's a guy named Claude Steele who talks about not racism. The anticipation of racism happening has deleterious effects. Like if. If I don't even encounter it. But I think on the other side of this door, it might happen. It affects how I present myself.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn right. Strolling is racism. I like that.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. So. So stereotype threat is an additional anxiety. There's the thing which is actually racism.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

That you have to contend with, but your anticipation of it, how you steal yourself.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

How you. You know, that is also, like, very anxious. So that's a lot of what my work is about, is the strategy, the gamesmanship necessary to traverse a troubled space. Right. And the art world, you're right, has been troubled. It's tough for us. But I have to acknowledge all of the artists that came before me and my peers to make this moment possible. I sound like I'm giving an award speech, but I think it's really just important to acknowledge, because those are the artists that people just don't know at all.

[Trevor Noah]

Who would you say are the black artists who made the art world see black art differently or open the art world to black people? Can you think of just a few?

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay, so that.

[Trevor Noah]

And I'm not saying they're the only ones.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, no, no.

[Trevor Noah]

But just a few.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's a complicated question because there's a moment that the art world starts to take notice of black artists. But then there have been artists working way before that that were just never acknowledged at all. So there's a lot of retrospective work that's happening to acknowledge art. So it's kind of like saying, like, if we were to use an MBA analogy, like. Like, we all know, like, Michael Jordan was the first guy that showed us you could have astronomical commercial success while you have success on the court. Right. So there's no Kobe, there's no LeBron without Jordan, but there was also Dr. J.

[Trevor Noah]

Right, I'm with you.

[Derek Forjaw]

And there was also Wilt Chamberlain. Right. And so there's so many people behind him. I would say probably David Hammond, David Hammons.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

And actually on the pier here in New York, there's a wonderful monument that he has across from the Whitney Museum. I think it personifies perfectly why so many people might not know the name David Hammons. There's a full blown monument that costs tens of millions of dollars to build. And I spoke to the director, Whitney about this. So we. I mean, it's a big thing for them, but you could pass it a million times and never notice it. It has thin wire frame to outline what used to be the piers on, on the west side Highway.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

So he just framed a building so you can miss it. And he's okay with that. And this is part of the genius of David Hammons. His presence is as fascinating as his absence. And he's done some of the most compelling conceptual projects. Like he sold snowballs on the street, like for, for an exchange. Like people bought snowballs. And that's, that's, that's an artwork.

[Trevor Noah]

Hmm.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. This is, this is David Hammonds. I mean, that's one of his more popular artworks. But he could hide in plain sight.

[Trevor Noah]

He played by like, these are snowballs that actually melt.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

But you could buy one.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

It opens up this amazing commentary on commerce. What are you buying? What is exchange? Where is value?

[Trevor Noah]

I feel like there are fields that people get into that don't reveal how essential they are to society immediately. So when you look at fashion, a lot of people just go, oh, man, fashion, whatever. They very seldom look at how fashion can include or exclude them from a space and make them seem like they're supposed to be or not be somewhere. That's right. Do you know what I mean? A simple example is like just a suit. Just a suit in and of itself immediately became a signifier.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

As to whether or not you were deemed respectable enough to step into certain establishments.

[Derek Forjaw]

Absolutely right.

[Trevor Noah]

And so you look at how like MLK used a suit.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And he was like, all right, guys, we're wearing suits.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

We're gonna go get beaten up.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

It'll be way easier because we're broke.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

It would be easier to wear, like, hoodies.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

With more comfortable. So we're going to get beat down.

[Derek Forjaw]

We're beat down.

[Trevor Noah]

Why wear a suit?

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

The man said, we're going to wear a suit because the suit represents Something. That's right. Says something.

[Derek Forjaw]

I love it. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And I remember speaking to someone in fashion about this, how they were like, oh, a lot of people think of fashion as just being whatever. But even look at sizing, for instance. Right. When sizes become more accommodating, more people feel like they're part of the world now.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, it's small things, and yet it's powerful.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, no, because you're talking about the power of images.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Architecture was another one. Most people don't care about architects. Most people.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And most people are affected by architects in ways that they would never, ever imagine. From, like a bench that tells you whether or not you can or should sit at a park all the way through to how your house sits in relation to another house, telling you whether you should greet your neighbor or not. And some people are like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, no, no, no. Architects have showed me some other worlds.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. Let me add to that. And then when we open this conversation even more broadly to African architecture and different modes of creation and domicile and public space and the plaza. It's a big conversation, but it's invisible to most of us.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

What you're talking about relative to the suits and respectability. You'll see a lot of suits in my paintings because of that. It's a. It's a signifier. It's a code about how to navigate space, how to anticipate a certain perception, and then to use it for your benefit. Which is why, back to Hammonds, his invisibility is as crucial as his visibility. Right. And so when we talk about representation over representation under representation, I kind of jokingly say, like, if you ever went to see the doctor and all the doctors were six feet tall and there were black guys, we would all whisper a question to someone like, what's. And I joke. My little brother Rick is a dentist, right? And I talk about him all the time because I used to get on my brothers about wearing expensive shoes, and I'd be like, bro, I would never pay that much money for shoes. You guys are ridiculous. And I just thought, like, what you were saying earlier about the way Africans critique African Americans. You pay $400 for shoes. $300. And my brother's like, hey, man, they look at my shoes.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, damn.

[Derek Forjaw]

And I was like, oh, he's right. He's like the only black doctor in a practice of four doctors. The other three are white doctors. And they look at his shoes, and he feels that. And so there's this tax where he's gonna spend more on shoes when his partners, arguably, I don't know what they're wearing in real life, but, I mean, in theory.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But their competence.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. It's not connected to.

[Trevor Noah]

Is not connected to their representation.

[Derek Forjaw]

All of these conversations are embedded in the codes in my work because I feel like it's additional pressure, I mean, to take us full circle back to your question about what it means to be black and to enter this space.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

One, it's impossible without our four forbearers. And I've even had dealers at different times where we would talk about the absence of Black artists, you know, 80s, you know, 70s from the commercial art space. And they said, hey, man, the blacks weren't making the good work. The blacks are making the good work now, man. They got better. You guys are making the good work. It's why it's working. It just wasn't that good then. And I thought, wow, there are a lot of people that believe this. That's why I cannot talk about entering this space without shedding light on all of the ones so, so much further behind me, you know, because they really made it possible. There was a. There's an artist named Norman Lewis who. We're going back now to bring his legacy forward. There was an exhibition at the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Art. The curators, in the middle of the exhibition had a letter that Norman Lewis wrote to Leo Castelli. Leo Castelli is a legendary dealer in New York and all of the art world.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Norman Lewis's studio was right around the corner from Leo Castelli's gallery, like, two blocks. And Norman Lewis had been writing letters to Leo Castelli to ask him to visit the studio, and it never happened. And so the inclusion of that letter gave what you're talking about the kind of perspective of what it meant that Norman Lewis was able to make all of this work under those circumstances.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm with you, right?

[Derek Forjaw]

You're with me, right. And so, I don't know, I feel like I'm in the space where it's cool and we can make money. And, you know, it's like looking at the NBA. I also have a friend whose dad played in the NBA, and he worked and sold used cars in the off season. Like, it was.

[Trevor Noah]

He was pre money.

[Derek Forjaw]

He was pre money.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Same game. Worked as hard, might have worked harder. Yeah, right. But doing the same thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Now it's time for a segment we call where in the World, Brought to you by Uber. Whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital. Uber is on their way, so you can show up for what matters most. Uber on our way. Christiana, do you want to know where I am now? Sometimes I feel like you get. You get frustrated that I'm traveling.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, no, I'm interested because you get to travel and I don't. So I'm living vicariously through you right now.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I like this. I like this. This is like a new. A new vibe. Before, you almost say it, like. Like, I don't have a home. And now. Yeah, yeah, no, now you say it. You say it open. Well, currently, I am in your neck of the woods. I'm in London. I came here for a friend's birthday party, and, yeah, we. He took me everywhere, actually. I'm. I'm trying to go everywhere that I can go in London that I haven't been. So I'm trying to stay away from, like, the usual, you know, like, Buckingham palace and.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, yeah, you don't want to do that.

[Trevor Noah]

Like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, the eye. So I'm all in, like, Brixton and Hackney and Dalston. Yeah, yeah. And like, Camden and all of these places. Yo, let me tell you something. I. I'm. London's a vibe.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's great. Especially when the weather's good. When the weather's good, it's one of the best cities in the world.

[Trevor Noah]

You see, I don't often go to London when the weather's not good. And what I don't like is how all of you Londoners say that. That sentence.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's crazy. I'm surprised that you've been to London and the weather's been good. Cause normally it's just rainy and grey. Like, that's the London.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean.

[Derek Forjaw]

I mean.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, now and again, I'll bump into, like, a rainy, gray day. But I don't. Let me put it this way. I've been to a few places in the world where more people immediately bring up the weather, like a reason I should escape. So I go everywhere. I go everywhere in the world. But in London, I'll say to somebody, they'll go, oh. They go like, oh, Trevor, how are you enjoying London? Are you having fun? And I'm like, oh, I'm having a great time. They're like, oh, yeah. And the weather's been good. You're really lucky. You're really lucky, Trevor. It's not always like this. Oh, you should go before it changes. I'm like, yo, what is happening right now. What is happening right now? Just enjoy it.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's being British. It's like the national pastime is to speak about the weather. So you're either complaining about it or you're happy about it. Those are the two states of emotion when it comes to the weather. So.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but I find it. I find it's more. I find it's more the Brits are complaining about it or they're complaining about how it normally is, but it's not now. So you'll go, this is nice. They're like, yeah, but it's not normally like this.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, we're a nation of complainers.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know. I think it's lovely and I'm enjoying myself. Well, that was today's wear in the world, brought to you by Uber. Whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital, Uber is on their way. So you can show up for what matters most. Uber, Uber. On our way. I'll often say to people, and I think I have this because comedy has been my profession.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I often will say to people, all work is a scam.

[Derek Forjaw]

I love this.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. I'm not saying things that people do are scams, but I'm saying work. The word work, all work is a scam.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because the value of that work is merely assigned by those who have the resources. It's all arbitrary.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, so that's why I was smiling at the snowball thing. That's why I had that fake. Because I'm like, oh, man. Yeah, that. And I try and explain this to people and they go like, no, no, no. But what about. I'm like, listen, I'm not trying to offend anybody.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But almost all our jobs are fake.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes, they are.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

Absolutely.

[Trevor Noah]

And we also assign a fake value to them and that value shifts and moves. You know, one of the simple examples is like, if you think of like the computer game back in the day in, in the U.S. yeah. Wasn't a really well paying job.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, not at all.

[Trevor Noah]

And women used to work as computers, as they called them, and they would like run those machines. Plug, plug, plug, plug. And then that was like a stable job and started growing and the men came, took it over, and then it skyrocketed.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

And if you look at most professions that are generally considered a woman's profession.

[Derek Forjaw]

When the men get involved.

[Trevor Noah]

When the men get involved, the money goes up.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But when the women are involved, the money goes down. That's so Nursing, teaching, all these professions. But doctor. Oh, no, no, no, no. Money goes up. Money goes up. Money goes up, money goes up. I actually want to know, though. Like, in the art world, I understand that things cost a lot of money.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But I know for myself and for most people, a lot of people will just be like, this world, it feels like a scam. It feels like people are just making it up.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

So, for instance, I'll go with this. Many people do not question the price of a Louis Vuitton bag.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

All right.

[Derek Forjaw]

Because of the story they've been told.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. Because they believe it. Yes. And they go, it's Louis Vuitton.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

Someone goes, oh, that's a Louis Vuitton.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

And then when you break it down into its components and people do this all the time. That's why YouTube's amazing.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

Someone will go, oh, it costs 12, whatever to make this Louis Vuitton bag.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

And they sell it to you for $2,000.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

And the same bag with the same level of artisan skill, the same level of everything.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Someone else is doing it for $300.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

And you're buying it because of the Louis Vuitton of it. All. Right. In that world, I find people. I find people are less likely to question it. Same thing with cars.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's interesting. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. People will buy a Ferrari, but really all Ferrari has done is limit their supply.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's it.

[Trevor Noah]

Focus on the demand.

[Derek Forjaw]

Told a great story.

[Trevor Noah]

Tell a great story. It is a fantastic car in many ways.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But they could make more of them if they wanted to, easily. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

What do you think it is about art that, like, jars up with the.

[Derek Forjaw]

Everyman, you know, it's a great question. And I think what you're asking about is not art. I think you're asking about value, the way the art world assigns value. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

That's exactly what I mean. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

And even more specific, we're talking about the art market, which is different than, but related to art itself. It's an important distinction to make because I think out in the world, outside of the art world, much like the purse, we conflate the value or the price. We relate the price to the value. Right. So, okay, so we see a Louis Vuitton, and automatically we know it's expensive.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. In the art world very differently. You will witness the cost of the Louis Vuitton bag go from $3 to $20.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

To 3 million.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Nothing about the bag has changed. We don't tell a different story. We've added deluxe zippers. There's WI fi in the bag. Nothing. When you bought it at three, it's the exact same bag. And so that's what's baffling to people, that we don't even hide the fact that it's the same bag at $3 that it was at 3 million. You have so many people here in New York City who will tell you, oh, I paid $200 for my Warhol.

[Trevor Noah]

Or, you know, or like an original Andy War. They bought it for 200, 100, and.

[Derek Forjaw]

Now it's worth, oh, my gosh, 20 million. Or Boston. Oh, you think you would have been able to. You think they would have sold it to you?

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, there's.

[Derek Forjaw]

Dude, you just talked about the suit.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

You talked about access. I'm saying, like, we cannot. I mean. Cause access and value. All this stuff is related. So the question then becomes, yeah, but Andy Warhol, who gets to pay that $3?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you're right.

[Derek Forjaw]

Who gets to pay the $3? Who has that intel? That's what the black artist represents. And what's very complex about us entering the space, because you can't have black artists in this space without complicating the space for black. For black collectors, for trustees. The entire ecosystem is affected when black artists participate. I'd like to also point to the entertainment industry when we had black comedians, actors. But you didn't have black ownership. You didn't have agents, you didn't have. It took a while to get the infrastructure. So we are now advocating for us to participate more globally in the business. Right. And I think that that's part of.

[Trevor Noah]

Why they don't have to sell players on the team.

[Derek Forjaw]

There you go. So it's like the question is not me, because, you know, we're kind of frontman, you too. You know, nobody sees the entire operation behind you. We see you. Right. But part of being successful is understanding the apparatus and getting good at that. And we've been in long enough where that's starting to happen. And that's, to me, even more exciting than the mere presence of black artists.

[Trevor Noah]

How did it feel when you saw the value of your art go up? Like, did it liberate you or did it imprison you?

[Derek Forjaw]

You know, I have to. I'm trying to remember that we're here because, you know, I want to ask you the same thing. I won't do that.

[Trevor Noah]

You can.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay, this is how we talk. So there Was a time where you were probably paid $20 for getting on stage.

[Trevor Noah]

You're being very generous.

[Derek Forjaw]

Bro. I literally come across emails sometimes where I was begging people to buy my work. Like, hello, Trevor. Hope all is well with comedy in your world. I saw your special. It was great. Listen. Hey, man, I got these new works. I was doing that, like, begging people to buy the work. That was so long for me that I don't believe the $3 million number. Wow. Right? I know. It's made up now. That's not to say that there's no value.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I know what you mean. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

You know what I mean.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I. I'm with you completely. Someone asked me this one day, and they. They were like, can you think of an analogy for it? And this is. This is how I thought of it. In life, when you are creating, forget art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Just creating.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

I think there are two ways you can achieve success.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

I think of society as being people on a train.

[Derek Forjaw]

I like this.

[Trevor Noah]

Right?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

The train is constantly moving.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Train is constantly moving. That's society.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yep.

[Trevor Noah]

And as somebody who's creating, you are trying to get the people in the train to look at the thing you're doing and take it.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And then you are now in commerce with them in some way.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. They're accepting of you. They remunerate you, whatever it might be. But the point is, you. You need the people in the train.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

To get there.

[Derek Forjaw]

Wait, where are you? Are you on the platform?

[Trevor Noah]

No. You're just, like, standing on the side.

[Derek Forjaw]

Are you inside of the truck?

[Trevor Noah]

You're just standing on the side of the truck. It's like, hey, society never stops moving.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

Except when it does, there's moments where society just, like, it slows down and they look out the window.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And I always go this one of two ways. Either you can run as fast as the train and try and be next to it so that society looks at you and goes, oh, I see you, and I'm with it. Or you can stay exactly where you are.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And wait and just hope that the train will stop one day where you happen to be.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And so when I. When I think of it, let's. I love that we can take it to anything. There's a time in history when Ferrari is struggling to sell his cars.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, totally.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Now, people were like, what are you talking about? You go into the Watch world. There's a time when Patek Philippe is begging people.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Begging people.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right, right, right.

[Trevor Noah]

To buy their watches.

[Derek Forjaw]

Totally.

[Trevor Noah]

Going around to little jewelry stores in New York now. Good luck getting one.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

I think that applies to everything in every way.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And that's why I often say to people, I'm allergic to the advice that most successful people give. Because most successful people will give advice that implies that they're. They're responsible for their success.

[Derek Forjaw]

There you go.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean? So they will say, yes. Let me tell you what you got to do.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

You got to believe in yourself.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

You got to work hard.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

You see the other person, you got to work harder than them.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

And you got to put your effort in.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And you believe. And if you believe, anything is possible. Yes.

[Derek Forjaw]

Welcome to America.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. But anything that they leave out is failure.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, right.

[Trevor Noah]

If anything is possible, then failure is possible.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

And I feel like not enough of them say, luck, dude, it's real. Be involved in computers around the dot com boom.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Luck. There are companies that blew up in that period sold, and then within a few years were worth zero. Literally zero.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Yahoo bought companies and sold companies. Yahoo itself got sold and bought. There's all these stories. No one would say that of the business world. They wouldn't say the business world is fake.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, they can't.

[Trevor Noah]

You get what I'm saying?

[Derek Forjaw]

They're invested in a big world.

[Trevor Noah]

They would never say the business world is fake.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, no, no. They can't say that. They can't. But they know when you go behind the scenes at all these big finance inside, they'll tell you it's a fiction, man. We need everybody to believe the same thing at the same time. Right. It's a house of cards.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. Intersubjective realities, I believe it's called.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, this is good. I like that. I've never heard that term.

[Trevor Noah]

I learned it from Yu. Noah Harari, who we had on the podcast talk to him and in his book Nexus, he's talking about how humans have connected all of these ideas and how we've made societies out of agreed fictions. And that's what it is. Yeah. He goes, gravity is objective.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right, Right. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Whether you believe in it or not, it doesn't there.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. It happens.

[Trevor Noah]

The US dollar.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Fiction is a fiction that is real because we agree upon it.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's the only reason why.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

So now you've just explained contemporary art. You've just explained it well. You explained the market It's a fiction that we all agree will legitimize.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Now, I say to artists all the time, realize what's happening when you're able to sell your art because people can give you compliments and not give you money. Oh, right. I can, like, I could like you. I can think you're great, but if I don't buy a ticket to your show, like, that's just a different level of investment.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm with you.

[Derek Forjaw]

And so, you know, I used to hear years ago, you know, my dad would tell me, son, a professional is somebody who gets paid to do what they do. Right? You get paid for artists. You can be a professional and have no money coming in for a long time.

[Trevor Noah]

In fact, it could all come after you die.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, easily it could come. I mean, hopefully less so these days, but it's true. So the money cannot validate the art because of what you just said, because value's all over the place. The value's shifting. Sometimes they can miss it. All those Black artists for 150 years that were overlooked weren't making better or worse art. The country discounted them.

[Trevor Noah]

It's the train.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's the train. So the train wasn't stopping. The train wasn't stopping there.

[Trevor Noah]

Train wasn't stopping.

[Derek Forjaw]

So. So for me and for other artists, you have to at once know that the art is authentic and true and real because it's what you have transferred into that material. In my case, I make objects, but that transfer has nothing to do with anything but me and that material at 4 o' clock in the morning, it's a spiritual experience when I'm done with it, and it enters the public realm for critique, for connoisseurship, for commerce. That's a different thing. Those two things are related and separate. And that firewall, at least in the mind of the artist, has to remain.

[Trevor Noah]

Intact, actually, like this, for all artists, to be honest.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. It really applies to all of us.

[Trevor Noah]

It doesn't matter.

[Derek Forjaw]

What we're talking about is if you're.

[Trevor Noah]

In fashion, if you are in music, if you are in, you know, physical. What do you call art in your cause? Art covers everything. But then that's true.

[Derek Forjaw]

Art is fine. I mean, yeah, contemporary art.

[Trevor Noah]

Contemporary art, okay. But in all of these spheres, I think it's the same thing.

[Derek Forjaw]

It is the same thing. It's true. I mean, what you said about the art world that people tend to pay attention to are the big numbers, right? How much the paintings sell for. But people don't talk about your salary like You.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

You want people to talk about what you're interested in. And the conversation is ironically, that's where value is, though.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I think the difference is for us, though, and I've always wondered how you feel about this as an artist. The difference is I have a million relationships of one. You have one relationship of a million.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, this is good. Slow down. So you have a million relationships. I have a million relationships of one, meaning one person.

[Trevor Noah]

So there is no one audience member.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Who is making me or breaking me.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right, Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And I appreciate them almost all equally because it's like, you know, that's why you could. You're coming in with your $20, and you're coming in with your 300 rand.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

You're coming in with your 25, 40 pounds, right. And you're coming in with you.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Everyone's coming in with their whatever amount.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And this is like a collective. But all of you have come in with a little. And then we're making the show. Yes, Right. But I have a million ones, and that's the relationship I have. Yes, but you have one relationship with a million.

[Derek Forjaw]

Very true.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you get what I'm saying?

[Derek Forjaw]

100% agree. The art world, in many ways, is not democratic. What you're explaining is democratic.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, it is.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's one woman, one dollar, one vote.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. One ticket, one vote.

[Derek Forjaw]

And this is also why you could be a superstar and why so many people know your name. Because you play to the widest possible demographic on some level.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, no, you're right.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Okay. For us, we're known in very small rooms.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Derek Forjaw]

With very few people, with lots and lots of money.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. The most powerful people. I'd love to know, from your perspective as an artist, why do you think art is so essential?

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, I truly believe that art is. It's in our original coding. Because you'd be hard pressed to find any society anywhere in the world through any period of time that did not create something outside of themselves.

[Trevor Noah]

Like cave drawings, hieroglyphics.

[Derek Forjaw]

I don't go to caves. But like, let's go to South America. Let's go to the rainforest. Let's go to the way they twisted leaves together to make beautiful thatcheted homes. Or it's really impossible to find humans where they're not creating anything. And so. And I've thought a lot about this, about why people care. One of the things I used to love to do in New York City, and this is even before I was begging people to Buy the paintings. You're just kind of in a room, and you're making things, and you're just suffering. Maybe somebody bought a painting. I would take the painting to them uncovered so I could ride on the train with my art just to see whether anybody cared.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I like this.

[Derek Forjaw]

And you'd be surprised how many people of different kinds would say, you did that. And I say, yeah, that's good, man. All types of people. And I used to love the way.

[Trevor Noah]

This is a. I feel like you invented the first, like, people's gallery. They should, you know, they should. They should do that. Someone should, dude.

[Derek Forjaw]

I love that. There's a woman named Sandra Bloodworth who just retired from the MTA in New York City. Her job for over 30 years was to pick artists for the subway to do public public works. And New York City probably has one of the best public works program in all of the country.

[Trevor Noah]

I did not know that.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. And so it's not always original work. I have my work at the 145th Street 2 or 3 line, and it's all my work. The ideas are in there, and I.

[Trevor Noah]

Love it, because what kind of work?

[Derek Forjaw]

You know, it's like, I design murals.

[Trevor Noah]

On the tiles and everything. If I had my art at a station, I would feel personally connected to the station.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, I love it. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But I would, like, go and want to, like, keep the station clean, and I want to fight people.

[Derek Forjaw]

Let me tell you what. Before you get to the point where you're, you know, looking at museums as a possibility, you know, you have the public, like, I took the train every day.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

So, like, to have my work in a train station in New York City was like, what I would be my work, dude.

[Trevor Noah]

So it's great, because let someone try to take a shit at that station.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. That's what you think.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't even understand the fight that we're gonna have. That's my art station.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yo, yo, D. You don't even understand. But what I say is, it is the Derek Forger Underground Museum of the People. That's the way I refer to it. Okay, I like this, but I was actually, you know, after divorce, which happened years ago, I was, like, struggling again. Living out of my studio, sleeping on an air mattress. Like, it was just tough times. And it was a block away from where they called me to put my work at the station years later. And I just thought, this is not coincidence. That was my station during some of the darkest months of my life. And that's where my work is. So I think that. Look, I think it's spiritual, to answer your question. I think that there. There's no people without making something. I think about the blacksmiths, the instrument makers, all the technologies that lived in, the people that moved to different parts of the world, and how those things then express themselves.

[Trevor Noah]

Right, right.

[Derek Forjaw]

The banjo, you know, which is. I just had the banjo on my last show, but I love the story of the banjo that starts in Africa with a gourd and ends up, you know, as folk music in America.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's actually a comedian who did a lot about that history. Steve Martin in his later years did a lot of research on the banjo. And it starts in Africa. There's no banjo in America without the American slaves.

[Trevor Noah]

That is wild, because the banjo seems like the epitome of white America.

[Derek Forjaw]

Exactly. And so, I mean, look, Beyonce is dealing with that too. I think she had the banjo in her work. There's a black banjo project that has been researching this. But you asked about my work and, like, what stories. I love the opportunity to introduce those complexities and to magnify them and to have people make connections to things that they might not have made otherwise. I mean, it's what you do in your work too. Right. It's like, how can we think about this separate and apart from the stories we've been told about what they are? Right. And art is a space where we can make a new story.

[Trevor Noah]

I think I only truly, truly, truly understood the value of art when I went to Ukraine.

[Derek Forjaw]

Tell me about this.

[Trevor Noah]

I traveled to Ukraine. This was many years ago. Obviously before the conflict. I was gonna go watch a Champions League final.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So we go. And what I was most taken by was how devoid of art the place was. Like any Soviet countries.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And not. Not all, but there were many parts of what we call former Soviet Union countries where it's devoid of art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Everything has to be functional only for the purpose of the function.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's like East Bertlant.

[Trevor Noah]

It really is. Yeah. It really is.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And when I came back from Ukraine, I remember traveling and realizing, oh, man. You know, the thing about art that's weird is it's that you don't play video games, right?

[Derek Forjaw]

No. How do you know that? You're making a presumption, man.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't give me video game vibes.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. I hate that.

[Trevor Noah]

Also, if you played video games, you'd never finish your art. That's how I know it's very true. Like, I've been to Your studio.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You are working. I know video game people. Trust me.

[Derek Forjaw]

You're like, that's. That's not what's happening in here.

[Trevor Noah]

Video games and, like.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Hours in the studio. That doesn't work.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's fair. You play.

[Trevor Noah]

I play. I play my whole life. There's something that I learned from video games that. That, like, applies to art, and it's like. It's what they call, like, passive buffs.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

So there's some things you would apply to a character.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

That are obvious and easy to see.

[Derek Forjaw]

Like what? Like a sword.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Here's a sword.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Sword is easy to understand. You have the sword.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

But then you'd have, like, a buff, and a buff would be. You are going to be 20% stronger now. Right.

[Derek Forjaw]

Wow. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Now, you don't necessarily notice the 20% stronger in every single encounter, but it does make the game easier, and it makes a difference.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right, Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And I remember coming back from Ukraine, traveling in back into, like, the world, going, oh, damn. This is what art does. Art is like a passive buff to society.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, I love this. Yeah. It's true. You know what I mean? It's true.

[Trevor Noah]

You tr. You stand in a train station, you stand in an airport, you stand at a bus stop, you stand anywhere, any liminal space, it's there. That has no art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Watch how much you don't feel right. And it's a difficult thing to notice because noticing absence, as you were saying earlier.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Is extremely difficult.

[Derek Forjaw]

It is hard.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, it's very difficult to go. I'm noticing nothing. That nothing is here.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Sometimes it's even difficult to notice what is there. But when you look at art, when art is. When you're not even, like, looking at it. Right.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

It's doing things to you.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, it is.

[Trevor Noah]

So it's impossible to walk through the Sistine Chapel and not affected. Yeah. And not have, like, one.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's not possible.

[Trevor Noah]

You know? Like, it doesn't matter what the painting is.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you know anything about it. You know, you.

[Trevor Noah]

I like. I don't even. I don't know anything about art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

But, like, when I look at a Rembrandt.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And I didn't even know it's a Rembrandt.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

I just go, like, where's that field?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

What is that place?

[Derek Forjaw]

You take interest. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And you know who I realize knows this and has not robbed us of it, but they're very slick about it is the advertising industry.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes, they do. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Because now billboards are our arts.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, absolutely.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. So when you travel somewhere, you see Coca Cola.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

You see, you know, like the story, the optics. It's like everything shining on a billboard. Shining on a billboard. Shining on a billboard. You're in Times Square.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And they know the passive power of it. They know.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

That in that moment, you may not.

[Derek Forjaw]

Go, coca Cola, but if they keep. If you keep seeing that red, somewhere.

[Trevor Noah]

Along the line, you're gonna be thirsty and you're like, man, I really feel like a Coke.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And they go, thank you. We got you. And now I think if Coca Cola can make you crave a Coke by putting up a billboard, then an artist can make you crave hope by putting up a billboard. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Derek Forjaw]

I like that. Okay, so I'm going to complicate that. I like it. I think it's a great opportunity to think about the difference between advertising and art. And it's really simple in that. Advertising, even design, they solve a problem, they answer a question. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

That they've sometimes created.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, they've created the question, but they answer it. That's the goal. Art is interested in the question.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, okay. I like this.

[Derek Forjaw]

So we'll say design. The goal is to solve a problem.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Art is to create. Create the question, huh? Yeah. So I think that that's. That's the difference. And I think that's also why people are sometimes intimidated by it. But it's like listening to you tell jokes sometimes. There's so many levels in the joke that it can be really funny if you understand all the resonance.

[Trevor Noah]

That's true. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

But you don't have to get those deeper levels. It could also just be funny on level one.

[Trevor Noah]

You taught me that about arts.

[Derek Forjaw]

Really?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. What did I teach you about? Let's tell you something, yo. Art is the most intimidating world I've ever come across.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I still. Yeah, still till this day, I'm not even gonna pretend. I just go, that's a nice picture.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's all it takes, though.

[Trevor Noah]

And you were the first. Can I tell you, you were literally the first human being who said to me, like, hey, brother. You're like, relax.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, it's okay.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't need to know anything about the medium. You don't need to know anything about the strokes or what it evokes.

[Derek Forjaw]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

No symbolism or how it relates to another art. You were just like, do you like it?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

What'd you like? And I'll just be like, I like the picture. You go like, why you like the picture? I'll be like, I don't know. I like that person's eyes. And you're like, oh, we'll just talk about. Yes. You were literally the first person who did that. And it made me more comfortable just liking art because I like what I'm seeing.

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, I mean, look, that's. Look, not to be, you know, flattering each other, but that's also what you did with humor. There was a point in life where I thought, oh, I could be a comedian. But I was like, it's not serious enough, though. Like, I wanted. I wanted people to take me seriously. And I don't know, like, as a kid, I thought, well, as a comic, like, you're kind of a clown, you know, Like, I didn't really. But it's actually, like, it has the space for social critique, for satire. You can get in places that other, you know, public figures can't, and you can push that as far as possible, and you're part of some kind of social change. A joke is so trivial on some level.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's not a serious thing, a painting on its own, I mean, and it's just an object. Like, it doesn't have any embedded powers, arguably. But then there is a part where that is true, though. There's something true. A joke can be more. It can be profound. You know, an object can stay with you. And I think that's the stuff we traffic in. I mean, as you were talking about, you know, the kind of magic and art or value, you know, I think about, like, laughter. You know, it's like laughter's democratic, you know, we're coded for laughter.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, we are.

[Derek Forjaw]

Doesn't matter where you are in the world. I think about, like, Mr. Bean or something, like, where there's no language, you know. But I think we human beings are encoded to appreciate art.

[Trevor Noah]

I think we are, actually.

[Derek Forjaw]

I believe. I mean, my whole existence is predicated on that belief.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I actually believe we are. We look at it and we feel, whether we like it or not.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. It's involuntary.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

So I think that part of what I love about being an artist is the way I can reach people is at a very human level. It's not about class, race. It's none of those things. In fact, I can be all about my cultural experience and bring people into it that live outside of it. And how marvelous is that?

[Trevor Noah]

Don't go anywhere, because we got more. What now? After this. What. What are you working on right now? Because you just. You did a show recently.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

How long do you take between. How long does it take you?

[Derek Forjaw]

It takes me about a year to put a show together. A little more.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you take a break? I don't know you to take breaks?

[Derek Forjaw]

I try not to take too many breaks. I mean, this is my own, like, whatever. Anxiety.

[Trevor Noah]

What is that? Like, poverty, trauma.

[Derek Forjaw]

Uh, I can't claim that entirely.

[Trevor Noah]

Cause I know a lot of. A lot of artists are. And I think this extends to many people, maybe in today's age. But there's a terror that if I step away from the thing for too long, then to go back to the train analogy, it'll move. I'll miss it.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay, well, I have to say this about the train analogy, which I loved. When you were talking about that, I was thinking about, like, performers that keep trying to stay relevant. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Chase the train.

[Derek Forjaw]

Chasing the train. They're chasing the train. It's a fool's errand.

[Trevor Noah]

It can work.

[Derek Forjaw]

At some point, you're gonna fall out. You can't go as fast as a train.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, here's the thing. You might not fall out, but I think there's a compromise in everything you're doing in life. Right. So keeping up with the train means that in many ways, the train is dictating what you should create and not the other way around.

[Derek Forjaw]

This is the difference between, let's say, an illustrator and an artist. An illustrator is, in design, doing the work that they're told to do to tell the story for the deadline. Da da da da da. I can take five years on a painting if I want to. I can take 20 years if I want to. I can take one minute if I want to. Because the train and the approval and that's not what I'm working for. It's something very personal and very internal. And I set the time. In fact, there is no time in my studio. Here's where the magic happens with art. I had a relationship with everything that goes out of my studio. I had an affair with this thing, a love affair. Hated it. Loved it. Brought it back. The whole thing, every time, the whole thing. There's not one thing that I make that I don't obsess over. And so my investment is what makes your investment possible. And I think there's a point in terms of finishing a work where you get a feeling that's just like, I think we've had our time. You know, you can go in the world now, but art really concludes when it enters the public sphere. Like, I start it, I make it, I have an experience when it goes out, for me, that's when the cycle's sort of complete. You know, it's like you can write jokes on a pad.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah. Until you say them to the audience.

[Derek Forjaw]

You have to say it.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

And it has to land. But, like, philosophically, like, where does the joke live? Does it live on the page or does it live in the delivery?

[Trevor Noah]

It's always been a tough one to answer, but I, I think, I think the way I see it, as I go, for me, at least the joke exists when I've thought of it, that's when it exists.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, this is like a. This is, this is like a very.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean?

[Derek Forjaw]

Parallel of political conversations.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But that's literally, for me, I go.

[Derek Forjaw]

The exception of a joke once.

[Trevor Noah]

Once I go, huh, that's funny. That's already a joke. I'm the audience of one and I've gone, that is funny. The difficulty, and where I think the professionalism comes in is bridging the gap between your brain and mine. When we're in a room together.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I get your synapses to fire in the exact same way that mine did for you to see why this is funny? And that is where I think great comedians show themselves off.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

They are able to create the same idea of the world.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

That they have in your mind. And that is like, ah, that's a, that's a, that's, that's mastery.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, but you've just explained what artists do. It's the same thing. That this thing is doing something for me.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

At a personal level. And that experience is authentic and satisfying. So much so that I'm going to invest all this time and energy.

[Trevor Noah]

I love that. Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. But that's a one on one experience. And then at some point it has to live in the public space. And when I told you this is.

[Trevor Noah]

So much harder though, because you put it out and it's done. If I put it out and it doesn't go well, I'm like, all right, let me take it back in the studio and change a few things. You put the painting on the wall and someone goes, boo. It's done.

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, what's beautiful about us is we don't hear the boos. Museums are quite quiet. We're like, soft. Shush, everyone. Quiet.

[Trevor Noah]

Soft booze.

[Derek Forjaw]

Do not boo the artist.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

So the conversation is a little more internal in that. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But I, but I think I would be more terrified by that. How do you know that somebody likes.

[Derek Forjaw]

To stand on stage in Turkey?

[Trevor Noah]

But how do you. How do you know. But how do you know that the people don't, like, you know, they keep.

[Derek Forjaw]

Calling you back for the Grammys.

[Trevor Noah]

We had to cancel the Turkey fifth call.

[Derek Forjaw]

I'd be terrified to cancel the Turkey show. Did you cancel it?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, we had to. I saw that there was a. There was a whole.

[Derek Forjaw]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bring that up.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no. I mean, I'm not like.

[Derek Forjaw]

What happened?

[Trevor Noah]

This happens sometimes. We had to cancel shows in Hong Kong in. Around the protests. You remember? Yeah, we had to cancel shows.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, we canceled shows, too.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. We had to cancel shows in India when there were the farmers protesting, and then we had to cancel in Turkey.

[Derek Forjaw]

Now, dude. But let me ask you this. How do you know what's funny in other places?

[Trevor Noah]

I don't. That's what I love.

[Derek Forjaw]

But why would you get on stage and you don't know that?

[Trevor Noah]

No, but you see, what I love is finding the thing. So funny is universal. Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

This is. This is the first and foremost in theory.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no. We can fight about it all day. Funny is universal. And what I mean by that is everyone in the world experiences funny.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Rats laugh. Did you know this?

[Derek Forjaw]

I did not know that. And I would have had to come here to find that out.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. So rats laugh and rats smile.

[Derek Forjaw]

What does it sound like?

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay. That's what I'll find out afterwards.

[Trevor Noah]

I've just read the papers on it. Right?

[Derek Forjaw]

A rat laugh. Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

So rats laugh.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

We don't know why they're laughing.

[Derek Forjaw]

I don't. I don't.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Derek Forjaw]

For sure.

[Trevor Noah]

But they're laughing. Humans find something funny everywhere in the world. What I love is trying to figure out where their funny is and how my funny can intertwine with it. So I used to. And I still do. In some ways, I used to envy American comedians.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because American comedians could go anywhere in the world, right. And tell a joke the way they told it in America. Because people know America because the world knows America, right? So they would go like, hey, man. So, oh, man. So I. I voted for George Bush. And. Whoa, let me tell you something. Let me. And the audience isn't like, George Bush. Who is this George Bush? What are you talking about?

[Derek Forjaw]

No, that's right.

[Trevor Noah]

Audience, like, keep going. Tell the joke.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

You know? But if, as a South African comedian, I would travel somewhere else in the world and then I would be like, oh, man. Oh, let me tell you, Julius Malema, half the people are like, what did you just say? Yeah, we don't know who is that? What is that? So while it was a curse in some ways, it was a blessing in many other ways, because it meant when I traveled, I would have to spend more time trying to understand what's funny there.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

What are they thinking?

[Derek Forjaw]

How do you do that?

[Trevor Noah]

Why are they thinking that? How does their language match up with what funny is or isn't?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. But what do you do you absorb the culture?

[Trevor Noah]

I try my best. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Do you go in around for a while?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

I just listen and look at what people are laughing at.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Like, my, my least favorite experience doing comedy is traveling to a place and leaving it immediately. I hate that. I don't want to fly and fly out.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, you like to be.

[Trevor Noah]

It takes more of my life, but I like to go there, eat what the people eat.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

See what the people see.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And by the way, have it as my experience so that by the time I get on stage, whether it's in Amsterdam.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Or whether it's in Cairo or whether it's in wherever, I just want to go on and be like, man, this is how I feel about these alleyways.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right?

[Trevor Noah]

And the magic happens when they go, oh, my God, you, you felt that.

[Derek Forjaw]

In fact, we feel that too.

[Trevor Noah]

You felt that, right? And it becomes a magical experience because they go, we even forgot that we feel that.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

You know? And I remember, I, I, I, I really never appreciated it until it was two people who, who helped me. Kevin Hart and, and Dave Chappelle. Kevin said to me one day, he was classic Kevin. Kevin was, he was. We were at a tennis match, and Kevin's like, He's like. He's like, man, Trevor, let me tell you. Let me tell you something, man. Let me tell you something, man. I'm sick of your bullshit, man. I'm sick of bullshit. And I was like, what do you mean, Kev? He's like, man, he's like, every country I go to, they go, you know who came here? Trevor came here. And they're like, man, you were funny. They're like, oh, man. But Trevor, oh, man, he told us jokes about us. And Kevin's like, man, what is some bullshit? He lives in America. I live in America. How's you? And Kevin was saying, he's like, I hope. He said, I hope you appreciate what you have. Don't try and be more this. Don't Try and be. You know what I mean? And Dave said the same thing to me as well. We did a comedy festival that Dave was headlining, and then I was in the run up days to Dave's show.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I think it was like maybe the first comedy festival in the uae and we both performed our shows and I mean, Dave Chappelle is a master of the craft. Yeah. You know, and like afterwards we're hanging out and Dave says to me, he goes, he goes, man. He says, I'm funny, don't get me wrong. He says, but tonight I watched you become Dubai's favorite comedian. He said you weren't. He said I was Dave Chappelle.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's big.

[Trevor Noah]

But you were their comedian as if you're from here.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I think that's what. I don't think it's partially where I'm from as a person, my life, growing up, all that, you know, everything.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I've always loved this. I feel like there's something special when you can find a way to use your culinary skills to cook somebody's food for them.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. Oh, that's. That's a great analogy. You know, I used to not understand how serious you were about that. You used to say that after you finished a Daily show and you were like, I just love to travel and I love to. I was like, oh, he likes to go. Like, who loves to tour? But you don't just tour. You're like learning. You're like learning the culture and trying to understand and apply.

[Trevor Noah]

I'll tell you why I think, you know, not to make it too existential, but I think it's particularly now because it's in short supply. One of my favorite things I get from traveling the world and meeting people and doing what they're doing is it reminds me there's no one way to be right.

[Derek Forjaw]

There you go.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I'm saying?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

So there is no one way for a joke to be funny.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

There is no one way for a food to be delicious.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, early on, just here with the crew, we're talking about like fermented shark meat in Iceland.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And. And if, if you're not able to handle, you're like, this is trash. This is disgusting.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. But they're like, no, it's not.

[Derek Forjaw]

Love it. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And somewhere else, people love caviar. In another part of the world, people like, what is this? So I think that reminds me in everything, politics, in the way I relate with other human beings, the way you raise A child. The way you make the world. I go, oh, don't think that there is the way. And you know how you know there's not the way? All those cultures and people exist.

[Derek Forjaw]

Look, they're doing fine.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I'm saying?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So if there was one way. If there was one way for the world to be right, every other culture would be.

[Derek Forjaw]

That would be that way. It's so true.

[Trevor Noah]

But I find a lot of the time, bigger nations and bigger cultures.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Will assume so. They'll like the British land in Africa, and they go, these savages, right? They don't know how to do anything. It's like, yeah, but you found them here doing it.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. That's right.

[Trevor Noah]

If you didn't find them. Yes, I would agree with you.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

But because you found them, it means they do know how to do something, right?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Same thing when, like, the Spanish get to South America and Central America, oh, God, they're like, all these people don't know. And it's like, oh, no, no, no, they do know.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, they're fine.

[Trevor Noah]

Cause they're here.

[Derek Forjaw]

You know, as a kid, I would. My mother would sometimes close the door and be like, I'm eating my food. And when she says my food, she means she's eating goddamn food. She eats with her hands. And she would say, I mean, we all eat with our hands. We eat fufu and otherwise. And she would say, these people won't understand that why I eat with my hands. They think I need a fork. And for her, she understood the fork as a colonial object. Oh, that was unnecessary.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, it is unnecessary.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's unnecessary.

[Trevor Noah]

It's completely.

[Derek Forjaw]

And she would say, food actually tastes better. I mean, your hands are tactile. You're experiencing the texture of the food, and you're ingesting the food.

[Trevor Noah]

Did she know that? Based on research? Because that is true.

[Derek Forjaw]

She lived it. I mean, she lived it. I mean, she grew up.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm saying. She was just saying this intuitively.

[Derek Forjaw]

Well, she said, we've eaten.

[Trevor Noah]

She's doing that magic mom thing.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Yes, exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

She's doing that magic. How did they do that? She's saying they'll say something that. Like a university released in a paper.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, totally.

[Trevor Noah]

Researchers have found eating food with your hands increases the. And your mom is like.

[Derek Forjaw]

She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is exactly right. But, you know, to go back to what you were saying about the cultures, man, you remind me of going to. A few years ago, I went to actually, Israel and From there, I went to South Africa. And I remember going to Hector Peterson Square. I mean, the story of them teaching Afrikaans. And after that I went to Australia. And when I came off the plane, they apprehended me for a while. And here I am thinking like, oh, I'm taking a break. I've worked hard enough. Let me treat myself. And here this Australian guy is asking me what I'm gonna be doing. How long am I here? And then I'm starting to imagine myself as like some, like, do I have a dubious motive for being like. The questioning went on so long. I'm like, bro, this has been 20 minutes. Like, I'm 24 hours away from home. And so that trip showed me, and it was actually a relief that injustices against mankind are as old as mankind itself. It blew my mind some kind of way to realize that. Oh, no, this is like, this is it.

[Trevor Noah]

This is human experience, right?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Also, it's like tough to be black everywhere on some level. Like, it's troubled. Traveling taught me that making art about my lived experience can be resonant because everyone has some version of what those challenges are. You know, when you think about the universality of a laugh or a painting from any far off part of the world, I want to see it, I want to experience it. I can engage it. I can look at paintings that were made a thousand years ago and haven't experienced it. I don't know. The humor works that way. It doesn't always age well. Like, is there a timeless joke?

[Trevor Noah]

I think so.

[Derek Forjaw]

Really?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's still funny. Yeah, yeah, completely, like a hundred years later.

[Trevor Noah]

I think so.

[Derek Forjaw]

Oh, this is.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I think so. I think some. I think some jokes exist in the human experience and so they will always be funny.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's true.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, I'm sure there's a joke that Ali Wong has told about having a child that can live forever for as long as women will have a child. I think that joke will be funny. You know, there's some jokes, though, that are about a thing that may be as short lived as the thing is.

[Derek Forjaw]

The thing is gone.

[Trevor Noah]

But there are some jokes that I do think they will just travel. As long as the people understand the context, that joke will continuously be.

[Derek Forjaw]

I mean, as Africans, we know this, right? Proverbs.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Derek Forjaw]

Like, they still tickle people. They've been around, just saw Denzel Washington, Jake Gyllenhaal performing Shakespeare.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Word for word. And people laughed, you know, so things can be timeless. Art. Art certainly is, but humor can be.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but Comedians. And it also just depends. I think of it, like fashion as well. It might just come around. It might come in waves. It might go in waves. A simple example is look at content that goes viral in the world at different times. There are TV shows that were hot in America.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then 20 years later become hot somewhere else.

[Derek Forjaw]

Really hot.

[Trevor Noah]

But Americans are like, oh, we don't. We don't think that's funny anymore.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's true.

[Trevor Noah]

But that place is like, we love.

[Derek Forjaw]

It, we love it, we love it.

[Trevor Noah]

The way you said the black man cannot come inside. What a great joke.

[Derek Forjaw]

You know, I saw recently these Africans that play. Is it Kenyans or they play country music? Have you seen this? No, but they love it. They have these parties and there's like all these Africans wearing, like, top to bottom, like, cowboy gear. Yeah, yeah. But it's a marriage of the cultures. I love this stuff. When culture can.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, no, that's my favorite thing.

[Derek Forjaw]

This is what we live for, right? I mean, I think as artists, I mean, that's what we really are trying to. Mine is like, the human experience. I mean, it could get dark because you gotta go inside. When I first started painting, I would make paintings and people would say. And I would have, like, you know, an athletic guy, a bright pattern background, and people say, kehinde Wiley. And I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. But I couldn't. He had already occupied that space.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, damn.

[Derek Forjaw]

And so I was like, optically, the things I'm putting together are adding up to what I don't want. Like. And so the only way forward for me was to get into. Okay, well, what's the feeling about this image? That. And it's like, oh, vulnerability is what I'm interested in. Because when I experience. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

When I experienced racism, distilling it down to the core feeling as opposed to the.

[Derek Forjaw]

What it looks like.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Derek Forjaw]

And I'm not saying that's what he's doing either, but I'm just saying, like, that was for me, my salvation is to get inside the experience. And because everyone knows what it feels like to be vulnerable.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Everyone doesn't know what it feels like to live in my body. And so to me, I don't know, in my practice, I try to. I try to do that inside, outside thing as much as possible.

[Trevor Noah]

I think you succeed well. And even if people don't feel it.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

The pictures are pretty, man.

[Derek Forjaw]

Hey, man, that's an insult in my world.

[Trevor Noah]

No, man, the pictures are pretty.

[Derek Forjaw]

Pictures are pretty.

[Trevor Noah]

The pictures are pretty. And I think we should allow people to accept that. Like, you know why? I'll tell you why. Because whether it's the Mona Lisa.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Whether it's, you know, David and God, or whether. Whatever it is.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

The pictures are pretty. The traffic. I know people will, like, fight about it or whatever, but ultimately, yo, the pictures are pretty. They're beautiful. Now they come.

[Derek Forjaw]

They're beautiful. We traffic in beauty.

[Trevor Noah]

They come with a story, and they come with meaning. And they might be layers. And then, like, an art historian will tell you why it's significant that that road leads nowhere.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's true.

[Trevor Noah]

Or why those hills make that sh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we should never forget. It's true that it does look pretty.

[Derek Forjaw]

I say that about you.

[Trevor Noah]

You have beautiful art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Thank you.

[Trevor Noah]

That also comes with a lot of meaning. But I'm just saying.

[Derek Forjaw]

Now you're throwing that in it for me.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I'm not. I'm just saying, as somebody who doesn't always understand meanings of.

[Derek Forjaw]

I don't.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm not learning enough.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I just look at. I go like, damn, that's dope.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I think. I think you shouldn't take that for granted. It's nice to have something where someone just goes like, damn, that's dope.

[Derek Forjaw]

No, I do. I mean. I'm joking. It's absolutely true. I mean, beauty is definitely a strategy for me. Because back to your analogy about the trained. We're trying to get your attention. I operate in the glance economy.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. You don't need to stand in front of a painting for an hour to have an experience.

[Trevor Noah]

In fact, yo, let me tell you something. One of the biggest reasons I don't like going to museums and art galleries.

[Derek Forjaw]

Why?

[Trevor Noah]

Especially if someone from the museum or art gallery knows I'm there.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah. Cause if they come is because they'll.

[Trevor Noah]

They'll come take me on tours and stuff.

[Derek Forjaw]

Do that with you.

[Trevor Noah]

And then what happens is, I don't know how long I need to stand in front of an art piece to make it seem like I fully appreciated it. Do you know how much pressure there? So I'll stand there, and then someone will come stand next to me, and they'll go, stunning, isn't it? And I go, oh, yeah, gorgeous, gorgeous. And then they stand and I stand, and then I go. If I walk away now, it looks like I'm not engaged.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

And then I'll, like, zoom. I'll, like, come forward and I'll be like, wow. Fascinating. Oh, man.

[Derek Forjaw]

Dude, this is a lot of performance.

[Trevor Noah]

That's. It's too much stress.

[Derek Forjaw]

All right, here's what I'm gonna do.

[Trevor Noah]

That's why I like looking at art with you. Cause I can literally just say to you straight up, I can go, I like those pants.

[Derek Forjaw]

That's right. It's true.

[Trevor Noah]

And I think it's important to be able to do that.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay. That's very important. And I'm gonna absolve you of that pressure. You may never do that again. You may also say, I don't get it. I'm not into it. That's a good thing too. That's a reaction. And in art, that's totally possible. There's some art that just bothers me, but it bothers me.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Derek Forjaw]

And that's a good thing. So this, I think the complication with the word pretty is that it flattens. For me, beauty is, to me, more expansive than pretty.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I'll take.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right. So pretty is just purely aesthetics. It's just pretty.

[Trevor Noah]

But beauty is there.

[Derek Forjaw]

Whereas you could be beautiful inside and out.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, I think a lot of your paintings are beautiful on the outside. If people don't know what's on the inside. That's what I'm saying.

[Derek Forjaw]

I'll take that.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but I'm serious, man. And like, for real, I think. Yeah, man. What I've always loved about your work is I cannot separate your work from you.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Which in my world, is a compliment.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. That's. That's a high compliment. I love that. I worked hard to get there.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, man. Because. Because I, I. I don't just enjoy the stories you tell. I enjoy them immensely. But I enjoy how you tell you in the art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I love that people get to know a little bit of you and you get to tell people a little bit of us.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, I love that, like, Africans have stories in your art. I love that black people have stories in your art. I love that there are some people in America and around the world.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Who have only had a black person in their house.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

In your art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

They've never had a physical black person. But there are black people on their walls. And you know what? Their kids grow up looking at those black faces. And I mean this, like, in a real, real way.

[Derek Forjaw]

I know it. We have this conversation. Rashid and I talk about it.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm really appreciative of that. Where I just go, like, damn, you did that well.

[Derek Forjaw]

But it's true. Like, think about that. And so. So I've Been asked also, well, how do you feel about that if they're those people that don't have direct engagement with black people in their lives, but want to acquire images of black people? And I say there's something beautiful that you find about the experience. And as long as I put enough truth in the work, where the work is not merely to perform aesthetically, they're part of, of the conversation. And I think it's a good thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Art is. Hey, man, let me tell you something. The first artist who painted white Jesus.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. Changed the world immensely. Changed the world, changed our world, certainly changed our continent.

[Trevor Noah]

Think about it, think about it. Think about history as we know it. Would it be the same if that painter kept Jesus as dark skinned as Jesus was? Just think about that for a moment. Right?

[Derek Forjaw]

No, it would.

[Trevor Noah]

Because it would be a whole lot harder for people to travel to other places and do the things that they did to those people when those people look like Jesus. Now you get what I'm saying? So that's where I'm saying, like, that's the big thing. Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

But I also say to complicate that, there are pictures of black Jesus who. That have been created long, long, long time ago. That's that market conversation about that one guy that painted long hair, Arkansas Jesus. Like why that became as popular is because of a machine. It's not because of the painting. So when we go to, say, Ethiopia, and we see Orthodox Christ, he looks very different than Arkansas Christ that we know in America or the Western Jesus. But that one didn't travel because it didn't function as propaganda. So I don't want to say that that artist made this move. The machine moved that artist's work. Work. Right. So that's, that's why that firewall is so important.

[Trevor Noah]

Before we wrap this up, I. I just realized there's something I've never asked you and I've always wanted to. I always remember this when we're not together.

[Derek Forjaw]

This is gonna be good.

[Trevor Noah]

Have you ever heard the conspiracy theory that the CIA invented American contemporary art or abstract art, or. Forgive me if I'm using the wrong term. Have you heard the conspiracy theory?

[Derek Forjaw]

I don't know it. Well, I've heard some things about them being involved in using it with. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So apparently it's just because you. When you said machine.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Post World War II, the world is now forming itself. It's becoming this new space and America is now a superpower.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

In a way that it wasn't before World War II. Right. So America was big, but it wasn't like the early forties of the world. Right?

[Derek Forjaw]

Early forties.

[Trevor Noah]

Now America has the atom bomb. The world is looking at America different. America's this thing and America, this is all the story. By the way, America realizes that while it is seen as the military powerhouse of the world, it is not considered the cultural powerhouse of the world.

[Derek Forjaw]

It's true. Right?

[Trevor Noah]

So America starts going, okay, we gotta get culture out there.

[Derek Forjaw]

We gotta.

[Trevor Noah]

And it's doing it in multiple ways. Music and, you know, film is burgeoning at that time and it's growing. But the upper minded echelons say, yes, but America will never have art.

[Derek Forjaw]

Right?

[Trevor Noah]

Right. Art is of Europe.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes. It is of the sophisticated, all the art in America.

[Trevor Noah]

And America is a young baby. And the story goes that the CIA is then TAS with creating an art market. And so they like start telling people, just make shit and we'll buy it. And they go in, they buy it, they inflate the price. They get galleries buying it, they get a market going. It becomes this whole big thing. The story becomes the art. The art's blowing, it's burging as well. And then the thing is crazy. Have you heard anything about this?

[Derek Forjaw]

I tell you why I think that's complete bs because it's great. It's great fun.

[Trevor Noah]

It's a fantastic story.

[Derek Forjaw]

I like it. I mean, for a dinner party, it's wonderful. I'd stand around and listen to it. But remember what we said before about the belief that human beings are encoded to create?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

So creating art at all levels, in all ways, has been ubiquitous with human beings. The art market really didn't get created until the 70s. And there was a guy named Skull who owned taxicabs. He was a wealthy guy who decided to go to Sotheby's, which at the time was only really selling antiques and, you know, cars and other things. So he had bought art from all these artists in New York, probably many from Leo Castelli. And he decided, I'm just gonna resell this stuff. And he did it at these high prices. And Robert Rauschenberg was there at the cell and like shoved them. And like they had this match. And there's a photograph of the moment when Rauschenberg. And so Rauschenberg says, hey man, you bought that for me from this? And like you took advantage of me. And Skull says, I did you a favor. And so inside our world of contemporary art, that's the origins that we know about.

[Trevor Noah]

That's the moment.

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes, that's the moment when New York City started to become the center of the art world. So that's. I mean, in terms of art market, I mean, that's. So that's a bit more plausible than this, because Americans, I mean, you know, the government is not. I mean, they don't even support artists well in this country at all. So they. That just gives them too much credit. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I want to believe that so much. Like, if you told me that happened in Canada, I might believe that more. Because Canada supports their artists, they understand culture. If you told me this happened in Korea. Look at what they're doing with K Pop. The government is, like, helping underwrite that thing. That's cultural export. But America, huh? Wow, that's a stretch. Great story, though. Oh, man, I like the story.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. As we said in the beginning, doesn't matter. Whether it's true or not.

[Derek Forjaw]

Doesn't matter.

[Trevor Noah]

We just need a story. Yeah, man, this was fun. D. Yeah. Thank you very much for coming. Is there any way where people can see your art right now?

[Derek Forjaw]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Where should they go? Other than which. Wait, which station? Let's start with that station.

[Derek Forjaw]

Okay, so there's a. Yes. Yes. The Derek Forger Underground Museum of the people is at 145th street on the two and or three stop shop. So that's cool. So that's. That's there. I have a show I'm working on in September in Los Angeles, which is going to be great. At David Kordansky Gallery. Thinking only about music and people can.

[Trevor Noah]

Just go to these things.

[Derek Forjaw]

They can just come. Dude, please come to the show. Just come. It costs no money. It's wonderful. So I wish more people went to galleries and museums. So I want to encourage people to just go. This show is all about the black voice, and I think this is a time where we need to raise our voices. I think the black voice is emblematic of so many things around democracy that are really. Is really powerful. So hopefully get you to la.

[Trevor Noah]

I'll. Yeah, I'll pop by.

[Derek Forjaw]

All right.

[Trevor Noah]

I travel, man.

[Derek Forjaw]

You know? Yeah, you travel a lot, my friend.

[Trevor Noah]

I travel, yeah.

[Derek Forjaw]

Thanks for having me. Travel.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you.

[Derek Forjaw]

All right.

[Trevor Noah]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.

[Derek Forjaw]

Sam.