What’s In An Accent with Lupita Nyong’o [VIDEO]

Summary

Podcast Summary: “What’s In An Accent” with Lupita Nyong’o on What Now? with Trevor Noah

Release Date: October 24, 2024

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Introduction

In the October 24, 2024 episode of What Now? with Trevor Noah, host Trevor Noah engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed actress Lupita Nyong’o. The episode, titled “What’s In An Accent,” delves into Lupita’s personal journey with language, identity, and cultural expression. Through heartfelt discussions, Lupita shares her experiences navigating multiple accents, the emotional challenges of altering her natural speech patterns, and her aspirations for her Spotify podcast, aimed at amplifying African voices globally.

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The Struggle with Accents and Identity

Lupita’s Journey to an American Accent

The conversation kicks off with Lupita Nyong’o revealing her early obsession with the American band Linkin Park, symbolizing her lifelong interest in diverse cultures and expressions. This segues into her struggle with her Kenyan accent after moving to the United States to pursue acting.

Emotional Toll of Accent Modification

Lupita candidly discusses the emotional complexities of adopting an American accent for her career. She shares, “The first permission I gave myself to change my accent... was full of heartbreak and grief. I cried many nights to sleep” (14:30). This transformation felt like a betrayal of her true self, leading to a sense of loss and disconnection from her Kenyan roots.

Family Support and Self-Worth

Her family played a pivotal role in helping her reclaim her voice. Lupita recounts how her mother sent her a voice note of her speaking before moving to America, which brought her to tears and reinforced her intrinsic self-worth. Lupita emphasizes, “The way you sound is a product of your life experience” (15:06), highlighting the importance of embracing one’s unique background.

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Storytelling and the Creation of Her Podcast

Launching “What Now?”

Lupita explains her motivation behind starting the podcast, aiming to “expand our understanding of what it means to be African today and making that experience feel global” (09:04). She collaborated with a podcast production studio that employed story scouts to gather authentic African narratives, ensuring the stories were genuine and representative.

Sharing Vulnerable Stories

Initially, Lupita intended to feature only others' stories, but encouragement from her team led her to include her own experiences. She admits, “This podcast was about being messier and just showing more of, like, my, myself” (28:02). By sharing personal hardships, such as her struggles with her accent, she aims to foster empathy and understanding among listeners.

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Cultural Insights and Authentic African Storytelling

Challenging Western Narratives

Lupita critiques the Western media’s tendency to present predominantly negative African stories. Through her podcast, she seeks to “humanize one of the sadder elements of the African experience” while also showcasing uplifting and diverse narratives. She asserts, “Africans are everywhere. Right. And so the way people know me is a lot through my voice” (09:04), emphasizing the global African presence.

Reclaiming African Narratives

The podcast serves as a platform for Africans to share their unique experiences, breaking free from restrictive stereotypes. Lupita mentions, “We want to explore what it means to be African today and making that experience feel global” (09:04), fostering a space for authentic self-expression and cultural reclamation.

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Navigating Hollywood and Representation

Breaking Barriers in Acting

Discussing her acting career, Lupita shares how training at Yale helped her master various accents, enabling her to authentically portray characters from diverse backgrounds. She highlights her role in Black Panther, stating, “Learning how language and accent work technically help me to be able to actually play more Africans” (24:14).

Maintaining Authenticity Amidst Expectations

Lupita emphasizes the importance of staying true to her identity despite external pressures. She recounts turning down stereotypical roles that didn’t align with her values, guided by her parents’ support: “My parents instilled in me self-worth that I go back to again and again” (56:28).

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Reflections on American vs. African Concepts of Belonging

Sense of Belonging and Identity

The dialogue explores the contrasting notions of belonging in America versus Kenya. Lupita reflects, “Borders is something we made up, so we get to belong... You are enough” (62:57), advocating for a more inclusive and self-affirming understanding of identity.

Combating Reductive Identities

Both Trevor and Lupita discuss how America’s fluid and often contradictory identity narratives can undermine individual self-worth. Lupita proposes, “We have to challenge… because who gave us that identity?…” (35:11), urging for self-reclamation and resistence against externally imposed stereotypes.

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Future Directions and Aspirations

Expanding African Perspectives

Looking ahead, Lupita envisions her podcast as a catalyst for mainstream media to embrace African perspectives. She hopes, “Maybe some of these will be a movie one day” (65:15), fostering greater representation and understanding through diverse storytelling.

Global Impact and Legacy

Lupita aims to create a lasting impact by popularizing African narratives, making them accessible and relatable to a global audience. She states, “Hopefully it works on the subconscious of people who are not African to just recognize it as familiar” (65:15), striving for a more inclusive and empathetic global discourse.

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Notable Quotes

• Lupita Nyong’o: “The way you sound is a product of your life experience.” (15:06)

• Lupita Nyong’o: “I wanted to share it because of how outrageous it is. And again, it breaks that thing of we don't share these things.” (36:55)

• Lupita Nyong’o: “My default is not to feel unwelcome. My default is to seek welcome.” (46:54)

• Lupita Nyong’o: “Borders is something we made up, so we get to belong, you know?” (61:34)

• Trevor Noah: “The way that my consciousness is different because my Kenyaness has never been in question.” (60:46)

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Conclusion

This episode of What Now? with Trevor Noah shines a light on Lupita Nyong’o’s profound journey through language, identity, and cultural expression. By openly discussing her challenges and triumphs in navigating multiple accents and embracing her African heritage, Lupita not only humanizes her own experiences but also paves the way for broader conversations about representation and authenticity. Her commitment to amplifying African voices through her podcast underscores the importance of diverse storytelling in fostering global understanding and empathy.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I got to be interested in whatever. I. I mean, there was a time when I was, like, obsessed with Linkin Park.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And nobody.

[Trevor Noah]

That is freedom.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And, you know. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

That's the devil's music. Where I'm from, anything that involved an electric guitar in my mother's house was the devil. I remember in church, you know, we'd go to Sunday school.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then, like, so I would go to different churches. So it's like, you know, the African church was just very simple. It's church and hymns and choirs and everything. And then we would go to, like, you know, the white part of it. Like, that was the church and was more, like, organized. And even when they would tell stories about, like, the devil, like, remember the story when Jesus is fasting, he's just, like, sitting. And then he gets tempted. And then they'd be like. And then Satan appeared. And, like, literally, like, when you say Lincoln Park, I'm like, wow, you really did have a free life. You really were free. The Lincoln Park.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I was free.

[Trevor Noah]

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[Lupita Nyong'o]

Hey.

[Trevor Noah]

How are you?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I'm well.

[Trevor Noah]

How are you?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Good. Vita. Nice to meet you.

[Unknown]

Nice to meet you.

[Trevor Noah]

Lupita. Of all the reasons I thought I'd be chatting to you on, on the podcast, an African podcast is the last thing I would have thought of. And it's honestly my favorite conversation to have.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Oh, wonderful.

[Trevor Noah]

No, really, I was just like, I was like, oh, Lupita's coming on. I mean, obviously you're always making movies. You're always doing things. You always. And then I was like, an African podcast. I was in on so many different levels. This is exciting because here we are, three Africans. Actually, let's settle the debate before we get into this conversation.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Who are the best Africans, South Africans, Nigerians or Kenyans?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I mean, what kind of question is that? We're all subjective. We're all going to be, you know, root for our own country.

[Unknown]

Somebody has to win.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but what did I tell you? Kenyans are nuanced.

[Unknown]

I know, I know.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, already you're like, we're subjective. And if you ask the Nigerian that's.

[Unknown]

Nigerian, the best and worst Africans, if.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

It means anything, the hubris of it all. The best.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Kenyans are always like, I always. What do you think it is like? Cause I find, like, South Africans and like, we know South Africans have always. We're almost like the Americans of Africa.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, South Africans have always been like, we're the best. We got everything first. And we're. And Then also, we are in, like, we just ignore everything happening to our country. So even when Kenya gets, like, advancements, or even when Nigeria, like, when Rwanda started having dope Internets, and South Africans are like, yeah, but it's still Rwanda. See what I mean? Yeah, but I feel like Kenyans are, like, quietly, like, the same. Cities develop and things grow and. But I've never heard a Kenyan being like, yeah, you have to come to Kenya. Never. Like, what do you think that is?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Okay, I don't understand.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but I mean, in, like, a braggy way.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Oh, yeah. We're not very. We don't have a lot of braggadocio. It's not in our culture.

[Trevor Noah]

Perhaps Nigerians opposites.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

No, the opposite.

[Unknown]

I. I love us.

[Trevor Noah]

I just.

[Unknown]

Why would. What's there not to love? Apart from, like, the corruption and bribery and all, you know, that kind of arrogance. Yeah, but if I go somewhere and there's no Nigerians, I'm like, I have to go. There's no money to be made.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Like, it's always.

[Unknown]

I'm like, I visit schools. I'm like, do you have any Nigerian kids? No Nigerian kids? No. This place is good enough. Like, but that is just so baked into me. But I'm like, a Nigerian from the diaspora, so maybe I'm kind of overcompensating the thing. One of the episodes of your podcast, you actually have a mother who makes a Nigerian soup that she. I don't want to spoil it, but she takes it to New York from London, which you probably shouldn't do, given the ingredients in typical Nigerian soup. But it's just, like, it has that level of specificity about, like, the soup people eat, the stories we tell each other. Like, how did you find these people?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Well, I've always loved storytelling, and just cinema through the ears has always been a thing for me. And growing up, radio was a big thing. And so coming here and learning of shows like this American Life made a big impact on me and my understanding of America from that more nuanced place. And so I wanted to make a show like that. And so I teamed up with a production, podcasting production studio. They went out, hired story scouts around the world, who then would come just really emailing people, just, you know, going through their own memory Rolodex, you know, like, that story was actually the mother of a story scout.

[Unknown]

Oh, wow.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And that's how the stories got to me. They would then, you know, send me, like, blurbs of all the stories that they had whittled down to, and then I would Pick the ones that I felt were representative of a mind your own story. So, yeah, that's it.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm loving the idea of this starting off in a very formal way in a production studio somewhere in the US and then by the time it gets to Africa, I mean, fundamentally, what you're looking for is, like, gossip. That's what you're doing. No, if you think about. Honestly, all you're doing is just like, have you heard anything? Do you have any good stories for me? Do you know anybody who has a story that's all you're really doing at some point?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But what I love about the podcast is that you start with your stories and it, like, it. It adds such a, you know, such a personal flavor to it. It really takes you on a journey. You know, I know it's the first episode, but the losing your accent, just the idea of you travel to another country, and then on the one hand, you have the balance of you want to make yourself, you know something in this country, and you want the country to, you know, identify with you. You want to be embraced.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But then on the other hand, you don't want to lose your people, your culture, your vibe, your language. Like, why was it important for you to make that the first episode, specifically?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Well, I think because it is the way in which I started my care, and it felt like a natural, organic jumping off point to talk about identity and the crises of it when you are a transient person. And this podcast is about. For me, it's about expanding our understanding of what it means to be African today and making that experience feel global, because it is. Africans are everywhere. Right. And so the way people know me, obviously, is a lot through my voice. And here I am starting a podcast. It felt just natural to talk about that dilemma that I went through about how to sound on a global stage.

[Unknown]

And do you feel that's something you're still grappling with?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

No, I am not grappling it with it. In the same way, I've kind of. I've accepted that I sound. I sound mixed up and confused. I do. Like, you know, and sometimes. Okay, it's. Sometimes it frustrates me because I want. There's moments when I want to sound more Kenyan than I can. And then mainly that's the betrayal when, like, I'm back home and I say something. I remember my. My niece. I went back home, and I felt like when I'm back home, I code shift, and I sound way more Kenyan than I do in America. So I'm with my Cousins, I'm feeling really chill. And my cousin, my little niece, she was probably at the time, she goes, why do you sound like that? Then I say, like, what? And she goes, like a white somebody. Wow. I was so gutted.

[Unknown]

I was like, here, like a white somebody.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Like a white somebody. And I was just so heartbroken because here I was thinking, ah, I'm sounding like, everybody, you're back.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm back.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And she called me out. So, you know, there's those moments where I'm like, oh, my God. I can't run away from my American experience. But for the most part, I'm fine with it. So at this point, I feel like my vocal expression is malleable. And that's okay.

[Unknown]

Reflects your experience.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah, yeah. And I. And I want it to be malleable, because when I'm playing a role, I want to be able to lose myself in that accent, you know, and to study it. And it all starts technically, you know, for me, I can't do accents like you. You're a mimic, and you're a very good mimic.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you very much.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I have to study the IPA of the accent, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, but that's what makes you brilliant. It's funny you understand the difference between the two. So, for instance, I always tell people, I go, I don't do accents. I mimic people.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah, okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean? So I, like, find a person, and I'm like, I like how they speak, and that's the person who sticks in my head. You know what I mean? So someone would be like, do a London accent. I'm like, there's no. For me, I don't think there is a London accent. Because when I'm in London, there are so many accents. So I just go, there's my friend in London. This is how they speak. And that's what I do. Does that make sense? And then sometimes people will complain to me. They'll be like. They'll be like, trevor, I heard your Trinidadian accent, and that's not how Trinidad. I'm like, yes, I'm not doing a Trinidadian accent. No, I'm doing my friend. This is how my friend speaks, and he's from Trinidad, so you should go complain to him, because I'm doing him.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

But it's also. You're also owning your expression of that Trinidad.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

It's Trinidad through you.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And that's cool. And I'm envious of it. I'm so envious of.

[Trevor Noah]

I would love to know what enabled you or what gave you the permission to not feel like you were losing something or betraying something, because everyone has that experience. I've heard countless stories of people who say, hey, you know, we moved to this country from Mexico, and I had a really thick Mexican accent, and I'm ashamed that now I tried to change it to be American, but then my family feels like I'm leaving them behind or, no, I moved here from the Middle east, and I'm trying to get rid of the accent, but at the same time, my family says, why are you letting go of me? Or, what was it that allowed you to give yourself permission to say, yeah, you know what? My accent is going to evolve, and it's just going to shift depending on where I'm staying for the most amount of time. Was there a moment or.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

My first. The first permission I gave myself to change my accent or allow my accent to transform was going to drama school.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I went to drama school because I didn't want to just be an instinctive actor. I wanted to understand my instrument. I wanted to know what I was good at, what I was not good at, and work on the things that I wasn't good at. And one of the things I wasn't good at was accents. I didn't know how to sound any other way than myself. That was the first permission that I gave myself, but it was full of heartbreak and grief. Just grief. The process of deciding, okay, I'm gonna start working on my American accent, and I'm not gonna allow myself to sound Kenyan so that I'm, like, monitoring and really trying to understand my mouth in a technical way to, like, make these new sounds. Making those new sounds in a context that wasn't the classroom felt like betrayal. You know, I didn't feel like myself. And I cried many nights to sleep.

[Trevor Noah]

Many, many nights.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Oh, yes, I did. It was so frustrating because you were.

[Trevor Noah]

Living in an American accent.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I was living in an American accent. And so I told my family, and I would call home and I would speak in an American accent.

[Unknown]

So you were like, method, Basically, I.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Was method with the accent.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And there were moments where I wanted to give up, but I had this goal. I wanted to be able to succeed in an American market as an actor. Now I did all that work just for someone to tell me, uh, now go and sound like yourself.

[Unknown]

What?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

That was another betrayal.

[Unknown]

I was like, what do you mean?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I've done all this so that I can come out here and people can be like, you don't have an accent. And then now someone is telling me oh, actually, we need you just as you were. My God. And so now I had to do it again. And when I. When I tried to return to my accent, I couldn't find myself in my mouth. I couldn't find that original part of me. And my mom actually sent me a voice note of how I. Of a speech I gave before I moved to America. And it brought me to tears because I've never been able to sound like that and I never will. So it wasn't a moment, it was many things. And it's also people I love reminding me that I was enough, you know, and my mother saying to me, the way you sound is a product of your life experience. And that was like, aha. You know, I don't. The way I sound is representative of my growth. And that growth involves America. You know, it involves Mexico. There's certain words I say, and I say them with a Mexican with a Spanish accent. And it's just like, that's the way I say those words.

[Trevor Noah]

You must be so thrown by that, by the way. So I remember in Black Panther, when you're speaking Spanish, and I remember watching this in the cinema and the scene isn't like. It's not like you're saying like one line. It's not like you're like, gio entiendo tambien. No, you, like, speak and you speak. And I will never forget this moment. We're sitting in the cinema and I heard people gasp and then I heard a few people whispering, wow, she speaks Spanish. And tell me a little bit about that part. Like, for those who don't know, like, what is Lupita's connection with Mexico and with Spanish?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I was born in Mexico. My father was in self exile there for a number of years. And I was born in the last year that he was there, he was teaching political science at the university. And yeah, I was born there. And then we moved back to Kenya, like, shortly after I turned one. And when I was 16, my parents were like, you know what? You have a Mexican passport, you should speak Spanish. And off you go. And they sent me to Mexico to learn Spanish. And so I spent seven months there. And I did a very similar thing actually. It's what actually informed my decision to speak in an American accent. When I was in Mexico, after one month of being there, I said, okay, enough with the English. No more English. I'm only going to speak Spanish.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And for the rest of my time there, I spoke Spanish because I was like, I want to learn this language as fully as Possible. And if I allow myself to have the crutch of speaking English to the people around me, my classmates and stuff, I'm not going to pick up this language. And so, yeah, I stopped speaking English, and it made me a very quiet person because I didn't have enough Spanish to, like, you know, be conversational.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

But what it did is it my. My brain switched into survival mode. And that's the best way to learn a language because you pick things up and you hold onto them for dear life.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. You start creating connections.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah. I would go to the market and I would learn the names of foods and, like, they would register. Okay. Because I need it for the next day. And I learned Spanish pretty well as a result.

[Trevor Noah]

There's a study that I read about languages particularly, and it talked about how everybody who can speak multiple languages also finds that they have a different personality in every single different language that they speak. I'd love to know, like, what. What personality traits do you find you have in the different languages that you don't have in the others? And you wish you did, because I know when I speak English, I'm one kind of Trevor, but if I speak Zulu with my friends, there's a different kind of Trevor. And then if I have, like, the mixed everythingness with my friend, then it's an even diff. It's a more different kind of.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, you know what I mean? What are we not getting from English Lupita that is, like, hidden in all these other Lupitas?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Well, there's two English.

[Trevor Noah]

Even that. There we go.

[Unknown]

I was like, accept Lupita. That was a whole new.

[Trevor Noah]

That was a hat and the body language, everything ahead. That one, that's an African sound.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And I'm with Africans.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. That's already.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Well, I have two English Lupitas.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

There's a Kenyan English Lupita, and then there's the American English Lupita.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And I think with my Kenyan English Lupita, I'm. I have. I'm a. A lot spicier, I think.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Okay.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

You know, and I can. I'm provocative, you know, and. And this might be my family, or maybe it's a Kenyan thing. The way my family compliments is to kind of abuse. So, like, okay, so you think that jacket is nice. Wow. You know, like that. And that's the compliment. And I tried that in school, and, like, people were so offended, but I was like, okay, this is a code switching thing, you know? So, like that. So I'm a lot spicier. I'M a lot more pokey.

[Trevor Noah]

Right, right, right.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

In the Kenyan version of me. And I use a lot more of those sounds. I mean, you know, Africans, we use a lot of sounds to convey a lot of things. So there's a whole lot more of that in my American. There's the huh Version. Yeah. And. And then my Mexican self. Mexicans are very polite. Right. And so I think I take on a more polite version of myself, you know, like, there's even just tu and usted. Do you. Yeah, like the whole tu and usted thing. And I find I'm a lot more. I'm whinier when I'm in my Mexican mode, because Mexicans have this lilt. It's a very oye and, like, silly. You know, they wool. And there's like. And yeah. So I take on that personality a little more. Yeah. And then, I mean, Luo say, maybe my Lua self is very quiet. Quiet. Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, Lupita, what's so interesting is I feel that you've broken barriers for African actresses. So the Lupita that arrives at Yale School of Drama today may not feel the same pressure to change her accent because there's a reference for but African actress. But you had to be the one to walk through that door in a way and do the thing that was hard to allow someone else coming. If an actress comes from Nigeria or they're like, oh, we know Lupita.

[Trevor Noah]

We know what this is.

[Unknown]

Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, you can pay us because we've seen it happen. So that person may be able to assume a completely different posture and just have their natural accent in a way you couldn't 15 years ago because it didn't exist.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

True. But I would still encourage that person to learn other accents, because without my training at Yale, I wouldn't have been able to play a Ugandan. I wouldn't be able to. I wouldn't be able to do Black Panther and try my hand at Xhosa. Said that very carefully, you know?

[Trevor Noah]

And even by the way, your Xhosa was great. Thank you. By the way, like, no, no, no. You must remember, like, me and the crew watch and Lupita, like, that's what, like, Lupita would call me and be like, hey, I really want to nail this. And I was like, okay. And I would get the whole Xhosa contingents together, because I was like, look, I know I have the ear for it, but I don't speak it as fluently. But I would literally assemble everybody. And I was like, gu. We cannot allow Lupita to slip up here. Please, no, we are not going to let her down. And then all of us would have, like, a consensus, like, from grandparents, all the way down, and we'd be like, this is the line. How would she say it? And we're like, okay, this is the cool way. This is the. This is all, like, behind the scenes. And then I would send Lupita a voice note, and I'd be like, you.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Were my dialect coach.

[Trevor Noah]

I was like, this is.

[Unknown]

I love it.

[Trevor Noah]

The people have agreed, Lupita. This is how we would say it. And when we watched the movie together, like, all of us were sitting there like proud African grandparents almost.

[Unknown]

We're like, oh, yambonudo pizza.

[Trevor Noah]

Every single time.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

You would be like, thank you, man. I put the work, yo. And thank you for being there. Speed dial. Because, you know, sometimes things would change on set last minute, and they're like, okay, here's something else we want you to say in Xhosa. And I'm like, oh, my God. Like, River. So thank you.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you nailed it. A thousand times over. You nailed it.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

But, yeah, so the training at Yale was not just about sounding American. It was about being able to pick apart accents and hear them. You know, just hear the nuances and find the change in your mouth, your tongue, the vocal placement, the resonance, all of that. So learning how language and accent work technically help me to be able to actually play more Africans.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

So I would say it's great to go into a program and to allow yourself to expand beyond the limitations of your. Of your identity.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Travel is all about learning and experiencing things in a new, exciting way. But you could get even more from your travels. With the Chase Sapphire Reserve Card, you can earn three times the points on travel purchases and receive a $300 travel credit. It also comes with plenty of other perks, too, like access to Sapphire's airport lounge network. You can relax and refresh with locally inspired menus, a curated selection of drinks, and more before getting on your flights. Make the most out of your next trip. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen. So as you start getting ready for friends and family visiting, maybe you should be thinking about giving your guest room a little upgrade. Personally, I've been using Brooklinen for a while now. And I'll tell you, these sheets are made to be lived in. They're soft, durable.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Ooh.

[Trevor Noah]

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[Unknown]

Talking about expanding beyond limitations I often think with African stories told by Africans, whether from Africa or in the diaspora, we always want to lean towards the more positive side because everything is so negative in the Western media. But what I like about the podcast, there are a lot of, like, heartbreaking stories in there. I thought Evelyn's story about, about being shipped from Canada to Ghana against her will. That is an experience. I know, I know so many kids that were shipped back and their parents trick them and it's kind of a thing that's not spoken about publicly. But you really managed to humanize one of the sadder elements of the African experience that needs to be told. But it's really done in a dignified way.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Oh, thank you. And it's by giving the mic to the people who have experienced it and allowing them to tell their story. That had been actually my initial idea. In the beginning. I wasn't going to share any of my own stories. And then nobody wanted to buy the podcast. And actually Norm Eladjam was like, yeah, man, you have to, we want to hear from you. You're the gateway to the other stories. And so I had to, I had to be more open than I intended to be, more vulnerable than I intended to be. But I was that.

[Trevor Noah]

Was that hard for you, by the way?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

It was because I, I have been very deliberate. The way I present myself to a public is very curated. Right. And I do it sparingly and I, I like to be buttoned up. And this podcast was about being messier and, you know, and just showing more of, like, my, myself When I'm at home and my socks are off, my bra is off, and that's difficult.

[Unknown]

Lupita, you are very private African woman. Yes, she is. But we don't share our business in that way. Very private and superstitious. There's a connection there.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. I was actually thinking about that when I was listening to you speak and I was thinking, I was like, it is very much an African thing. You don't air your business, you don't air your family's business. You don't even air, like, your people's business in a way. I remember one day, I never thought of it consciously, but one day I was back in South Africa. This is when I still host in the Daily show and someone came up to me in the street and they were like, Trevor, can I just tell you, man, we're very proud of you. You're doing a great job. But most importantly, I'm so glad that you are not telling Americans what is happening here. Because, Trevor, that is our business. Don't go there and paint our country for other people. But when you are here, I was happy you are still doing it. When you are here. You were talking about our president. You were telling us what's wrong, but you mustn't do it in America. And I was like, wow, it really is an African thing that we have. Like, where I find, like, Americans are very much like, let me tell you everything. That's. It's tell all.

[Unknown]

They just met you and they'll tell you all their.

[Trevor Noah]

It's a very tell all thing. And even in the, even in the industry, how, like, I'd love to know how you found the balance and how you. In the same way you found the balance in like navigating like your accent and where you're from. How do you find the balance in, like, sharing in a world where people want more from you, but then also like maintaining like, your privacy because people do look to you. And I've seen people go like, oh, Lupita, thank you for sharing these stories. Thank you for sharing stories of heartbreak, or thank you for talking to us about, like, your journey in acting or like, how have you found that balance and still keeping what you want to be precious and then knowing what you want to share with others.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

So I try and I am private, but I also want to be real, you know, And I think it's a negotiation between that constantly and when I think. But I also work from a very vulnerable place. To be an actor is to be vulnerable, at least for me. And while I'M taking on all these different characters. I'm always putting myself on the line, right, Because I'm always exposing myself to things I don't know. And the only way to do that is to remain tender and vulnerable. And so when it comes to my own life, I guess I think about, okay, how can this help? I want to be additive. I don't want to be, I don't know, masturbatory about the things that I share. You know, it's not so. The things that I share, I want to share because I feel it may be of use to somebody else. So that's why I talked about heartbreak, because it was so real to me. And I was looking at the landscape of social media and how we are always presenting our most positive side.

[Trevor Noah]

You truly are our most perfect side.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Our most perfect side, our most aspirational side. And yet here I was going through something so devastating, and I just wanted to be real about it in order for me to be able to live in that realness better, you know, and also so that when people saw me, they wouldn't be surprised if I'm not.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, damn.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I love actually if I'm not vibrant and vivacious, because this is not a vibrant and vivacious moment. And there is a time, forever, everything. And that was my time for grief. And then with this podcast, my deep, deep seated desire was truly to kind of challenge that African mentality of keeping things so closed, because I think it robs us of an opportunity to better understand each other. Right? When you turn on the radio and the only thing is the bad news, the gossip, and American, like Hollywood affairs and issues, we are robbing ourselves of an opportunity to understand ourselves one story at a time. And so much empathy is gained when we can just hear a story of someone that is so unfamiliar, but going through something that is familiar to us. And so I want for us as Africans to understand each other better and to go beyond our very limited expectations of ourselves, because we're not having those conversations, you know, so hopefully this is contributing to our own understanding of who we are today, because we're always grappling, don't you feel, with like, with tradition and modernity and, you know, that thing of like, that's very unafrican, you know, you hear that a lot. But is it? Is it? And one of the ways to challenge what is African is to actually get Africans talking about their unique experiences.

[Trevor Noah]

It's interesting in the specificity of your podcast, I feel like you've tapped on something that is that sort of Touches on everyone and everything. You know, like America as a whole is a place where people are always asked to sort of like, check their identity at the door. But then what they don't realize is they also ask to then adopt an identity. But what is that identity? And America always struggles and grabs, you know, it's like, you see it throughout time. It's like the Irish get here and people are like, we don't like the Irish. You're not Irish. Until the Irish are like, okay, we're not Irish, we're American. And it's like, but what is American? And who defined what American is? Nobody actually sits and says, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But what is American? You know, and even in the UK you're seeing this, okay, but what is British? What is English? You know, and when you go now back to Africa, you even find people saying things. I remember saying to my friends one day, I said, do you ever think about how when we sit around and I've seen this mirrored in America, we'll sit around with each other and we'll say, that's not black. Do it the black way. Or do it the. Then I go like, but have you noticed how many times we will say that? And what we mean is, it's not sophisticated. It's not considered. It's not. You know what I mean?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

So we'll be like, if it is.

[Trevor Noah]

Sophisticated, if it is considered, if it has a level of panache, then we're like, ah, that's not black. And it's like, but who taught us this? Who taught us that black is not suave? Who taught us that black is not. You know what I mean? Why does black have to be only the negative things as opposed to, like an evolution of black in addition to something that is. Do you know what I mean?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. And it's a reductive identity.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, completely.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And one that is created by an exclusivity from another group. Right. And. And that in itself we have to challenge. Because who gave us that identity? Who gave us those limited self beliefs, you know, and we get to reclaim ourselves on a daily basis.

[Unknown]

I like you using the word reclaim. I say this as a mother. One of my favorite stories in the podcast is the breastfeeding story involving her cousin. Fiona will not spoil it. But it goes somewhere. You don't think it's going to happen.

[Trevor Noah]

It's a disaster. But it's a great. Like, it's.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but it's just like, I can't. Whenever you think of breastfeeding I saw African women around me breastfeeding. That's why I made the choice to do it. But when it came to me having my first son, the images I saw of women breastfeeding didn't look like me, because breastfeeding has become something that is associated with being a white, affluent, privileged woman who has the time to be at home with her child. Right. But the images I saw were of my mother and my aunts. And it's funny, but, like, African women, breastfeeding is not something that you see on television. It's not something that I've seen depicted, but it's something that's spoken about extensively in this episode of the podcast. And it's that reclamation of things that we also do. We also do these very special yet ordinary things, but it's not. We're not necessarily associated with it in the way we tell stories in the world right now.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

How interesting.

[Unknown]

But I'm coming to that as somebody who likes. Has breastfed for a long time, longer than I would have liked to. It was always six months, and it ends up being like a year. And plus. And I was just like, oh, wow, this is amazing, that story.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I wanted to share it because of how outrageous it is. And again, it breaks that thing of we don't share these things, you know, because it's actually. I don't know how true it is that we don't share these things. And my cousins, who are so ready to share that story, I was so impressed with how ready they were to share this story. But it's. It's lovely to see how it's opening up. Other conversations like that. I hadn't even thought about that aspect of. The fact is that there's been an erasure of imagery of African.

[Unknown]

Yeah, you say that like this is stuff we're not willing to share. And I do think we share what we share in private.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Exactly.

[Unknown]

So it's refreshing to hear it publicly.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Right, Exactly. Because we are growing more public. Right. We're growing more global. And so if we don't share these stories, then we don't. We're not present in. In On a global platform. And that's so important. And in the world of podcasting, I was so hungry to hear stories like this. That's why I wanted to make this podcast. And when people said no, I was just stubborn about it because I was like, I know I'm not the only one who wants to hear these stories. I know that there are Africans out there that would appreciate this. It's exactly that the global conversation that I wanted to contribute to for Africans to gather and see themselves with delight.

[Trevor Noah]

And now it's time for a new segment, Coffee Connection, brought to you by Starbucks. I have to say, what Lupita is experiencing right now in her life with the podcast and with the stories that she's connecting people to is probably one of my favorite expressions of connection that I've ever seen.

[Unknown]

In what way?

[Trevor Noah]

Well, like, we sometimes forget how wonderful and important it is to connect to ourselves and to the world that we've come from. You know, we always. We always connect going forward, and I think sometimes it's only when we get really old that we think of connecting backwards.

[Unknown]

I know what you mean. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean? Because life is always going forwards. It's always going forwards. It's always going forwards. And then you see old people and they are really in touch with connecting backwards. Sitting with their friends, talking to grandkids, talking to their kids. There's like, a beautiful. And I don't know what it was like for you, but when I was growing up, that was, like, the number one thing that my grandmother loved to do. It was like coffee and tea.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, they'd be like. You know what I mean? And that was the thing. Like grannies loved.

[Unknown]

Yeah, of course.

[Trevor Noah]

Like African grannies. It was always like, I've got my coffee and my tea and my bread. Like, my great grandmother loved coffee, and then my grandmother loved tea. And they would just sit around with their bread and their cup of whatever beverage they'd chosen, and they would just connect. And that's where you'd hear all the stories, and that's where you'd sit around, you'd hear all the gossip. That was my favorite thing.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, that's. I mean, what's coffee without gossip? What's coffee without. It's funny. I saw my husband's abuela yesterday. I went and saw her in the Heights, and the first thing they said to me is, like, cristiano, do you want coffee?

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

The Dominicans, they're like, coffee is such an integral part of culture.

[Trevor Noah]

It really is. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And it's just like, you can't say no. You have to say yes. Even though it's.

[Trevor Noah]

What is their style of coffee, by the way? Is it like a. Because I know every region will have, like, a different vibe.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I'm gonna mess it up. They make it in, like, this metal thing. I'm. I don't know the name of it. And they put it over the stove.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah. Okay, I've seen this.

[Unknown]

Yeah. They put it over the stove, and it's strong. It's like an espresso. And they're like, it's as much sugar as you want, but it's made with, like, so much love.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Unknown]

So I couldn't say no. And then we, like, caught up over coffee.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I love. I just love. I don't know till this day. When I smell coffee brewing or tea, my brain goes, there's a story coming up. Yeah, there's like a. It has, like, a warm feeling of, like, tell me what's going on in your life or tell me what's happening with the neighbors. Like, you know.

[Unknown]

Exactly. And especially, like, it's kind of low stakes enough to make someone feel comfortable.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I like it.

[Unknown]

Because if you say to someone, let's meet up for wine, then you're like, you don't know where it's gonna go.

[Trevor Noah]

But it's.

[Unknown]

Coffee feels kind of casual. And then as time goes on, the gossip flows.

[Trevor Noah]

If my grandmother ever said to me, trevor, let's grab a glass of wine, And I'd be like, granny, what's going on in your life? And how can I help? That would have been a red flag for me.

[Unknown]

Well, our coffee is the. What do you call it? It's a green flag.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it really is. Definitely is a green flag. All right, well, that's our coffee break. It's time to get back into our conversation with Lupita. It's a great day for coffee. It's a great day for Starbucks. We'll be right back with more Lupita Nyong'o. You know, listening to you talk about the journey of making your podcast, it highlights for me, like, the journey of, like, navigating what I call the data lie. So I have a few friends who are, like, engineers or data scientists or they just work in the field. And then, like, some of them work at Netflix. Some of them work, you know, for Microsoft, some of them. But they work at all these, like, tech companies. And the biggest argument I will have with them is about data. And I always say to them, I go, like, data is a liar, right? Because data looks back and then tries to assume forward. And so it's limited in what it can tell you about the world. And when I'm listening to your story, I think of how many times it's funny. Norm, you know, who we both know is my manager. He said, everyone in Hollywood is in a mad dash to be second. Wait, and when he. Yeah, when he that line really stuck. He said, everyone in Hollywood is in a mad dash to be second.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

And I was like, what do you mean? And he explained it to me and I was like, yeah, but this is so true. Think about how many times a story has been told, a movie has been made, a show has been created, and once that shows a success, like, let's say like a simple one, like the Office.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah, right.

[Trevor Noah]

You go like, no, people don't want to. You can't look at the camera and you can't do. And then Ricky Gervais did it in the UK and was obviously popular. They try things all the time, they bring it to America. Then I don't know, I don't. Becomes huge. And then everyone does it. Now all of a sudden, Modern Family, Parks and Recreation, everyone's looking in the camera, everyone's making a mockumentary, and now it's the most normal thing to do. You know what I mean? And then you, you look at the next story, you go like, oh, let's make us. I don't know if this. Oh, is there a market for.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Is it gonna resonate?

[Trevor Noah]

I'm hearing the same thing here, in a way. It's like, you go, let's make these stories.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

For Africans. Or like, buy Africans, rather not even for them first.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And I can see people going, oh, but Lupita, we just don't find. Africans are big fans of podcasts. I've even heard people say that, by the way.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Right, right.

[Trevor Noah]

And then I go like, yeah, yeah. Because no offense to anyone on the podcast, but like, who are they relating to?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Exactly, exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, why is an African person gonna just listen to some random podcast in Ohio, Right. And then become like, I'm a big fan of podcasts.

[Unknown]

Huh.

[Trevor Noah]

I was listening to one about the malls that are stretching throughout America. Ah, man, whatever. Like why? And I. It's in. I like that. You. Where do you think you got that from? This, this, this, this sort of obstinate idea of like, I'm going to push, I'm going to think about everything you've done and how brazen and revolutionary it is. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You are a dark skinned black woman from Kenya coming to America to act in Hollywood movies. And not as extra number seven, but.

[Unknown]

As lead character number one on the call sheet.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Like when I was, when I was watching Quiet Place and I'm just like, I was watching. I mean, I don't know if you still feel it and I hope maybe you don't, because you're in it. But I was watching this and I was like, people, can we just pause for a moment?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

This is her movie, and I think people take for granted. And no one in the cinema is going, like, huh, that's interesting. When does the white star come in? No, people just, oh, it's her from, like, where did you get that from? Like, this idea I'm going to push for the podcast. They say, no, you go, no, I'm going to do it. They go, hey, your accent is thick. You go, no, no, I'm going to do it. You know, they go, you're from Africa. You go, I'm going to do it. Where do you get that from?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Hmm. I would. I believe it's my parents. My parents didn't raise me to be limited by my gender, my ethnicity, my nationality. They just didn't. And I think that that is where. Because I'm so grateful that I had parents that supported me from day one. And my parents are not your conventional African parent. They never, ever told me who I needed to be. Except my mom made me take French. But other than that, like, it was all about, what are you interested in? And do that to the best of your ability. And because I was born in Mexico and I had this Mexican name, I always had the feeling that I belonged someone somewhere else other than Kenya. So I grew up always curious about this place that I was born. And I had books in Spanish that I didn't understand, and I would just pour through them with a longing to one day understand. And I think those things, like, those feeding me with these elements of global curiosity, really, really, I think gave me that foundation of I belong in the world, you know, and at the time, I wouldn't have said that. I didn't. I don't think that I moved through the world with like a, you know, chest out.

[Unknown]

I.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

This. The world's my oyster. Certainly not. But a curiosity and a disbelief that I am unwelcome.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I love that. You know, like, that I am unwelcome.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah. Like, my default is not to feel unwelcome. My default is to seek welcome, you know, and so I don't look for rejection. I experience it. But I think I have more hope and faith than doubt as a default. So, like, I remember when I. When I got to. When I auditioned for drama school, I came all the way from Kenya, right? My dad bought me that ticket to come to America to audition. I had three auditions, and it was nyu, it was Yale, and it was UCSD and these auditions were all taking place on the east coast. And I would go there and people were nervous and people were like checking each other out. And I was just like, I have come too far. I've just come too far to be worried about you. You and you. Like, I just can't. I'm going to go in there. I know what I know, I don't know what I don't know. I'm gonna give it my best. And then they're either going to say, yes, you come, or no, you go home. But like, I don't have time. I just didn't have time for self doubt in that moment, you know? And so I think that may have translated in the room, you know. And then I got to school and people were like fretting about, why do we have to do this and that. And I was like, I don't have time to fret. I need to pick whatever I can from this program and make the most of it. Because again, I have just come from too far. I just cannot. I cannot be. I was so grateful also to have the opportunity to just focus on my art. I did not come from a society that was supportive of my interests. My parents were, and they always were safeguarding my interests. But my extended family, they were like, when are you going to get serious? You need to do something of mana, you know, which means of substance, you know, when you know this acting, why.

[Trevor Noah]

Don'T you act like a doctor, you know?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah, this acting, acting, Amundi, you have to get serious, you know, And I got that a lot. So I was the. I was often the child, I was often the friend that my friend's parents wouldn't let me come to their house because I was a bad influence because I had. My hair was blue, you know, I was weird. You were that kid. Yeah, I was weird. I was always like unconventional. Right. And so being that oddity, like by the time I got to this, I was just like, no, I gotta get on with it. I can't. I can't allow for someone else's doubt to stop me. I can't allow for my own doubt to stop me. You know, I have to. I had to externalize. Externalize the rejection.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

And not allow for myself to. To inflict myself with the rejection.

[Unknown]

Lupita, I'm really curious. Do you think something about being raised in Kenya kind of insulated you from a lot of the messages that I think young black girls, particularly dark black girls experience in the west about colorism, complexion, hair? Because it Seems like you just gave yourself the latitude to take up space.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yes. But, you know, I did experience colorism as well growing up. I experienced that and I experienced a lot of. I had issues with self esteem, so I wasn't spared that. But the difference is that I came from a majority population. So my issue was not being black. It may have been being dark, but my issue was not being black. And I think. And so I was not othered in that same way. And as much as I was being teased by how dark I was, everybody was dark. So I'm like, what are you saying? Even you, you know, so the self worth thing there was always like counters to it. Right. And so I didn't have a society that was limiting me in the same way, you know, and I didn't have a political system that I was fighting against in that same way. And I had other markers of identity. I, you know, I was a woman, I was a luo. I was upper middle class. There were other things that I was anchoring and contending with than just this question of like my experience, my external self being the only marker of my value. And I have a lot of empathy for the experience one must have of being raised in America where that value system is so much. It's just such a. It's a lot more drastic because of the racial history paradigms and the history. And I definitely feel grateful that my identity was built internally.

[Trevor Noah]

Don't go anywhere because we got more what now? After the this episode is brought to you by Survey Monkey. The world is always changing and totally unpredictable, which is fun unless you're trying to run a business. So if you want to build a product people actually love, keep your customers happy and stop your team from setting their status to emotionally unavailable, well, you've got to understand what people are really thinking. And to do that, you need to dare to ask the questions that really matter. Luckily, SurveyMonkey makes it super easy to ask the right questions that'll drive your business forward. In fact, SurveyMonkey answers 20 million questions every single day for over 300,000 organizations around the globe. Get answers to your questions. Go to surveymonkey.com dare this episode is brought to you by Nordstrom Rack. Just in and so good. Thousands of new winter deals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save up to 60% on Sam Edelman Sorrel Free Peep, Cole Haan and more. Cold weather fines. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack this. Wow.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah, so. But the idea that, like my black card would be snatched from Me?

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's not a thing.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

It didn't exist because I didn't have.

[Trevor Noah]

That's not a thing.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I didn't have that language. I did, I was, you know, I didn't have that, that racial language. It was just. She's weird. She's just weird. Yeah, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

But I was not, it's not a larger, I, you, I don't know, is it? It's just not a larger indication. Right. So I was allowed to sell. Even though it was met with a side eye, I was allowed to self express a whole lot more and figure out my individuality without. Yeah, without that, that sort of like cultural or. Yeah, just that tension because you have.

[Unknown]

Like this beautiful confidence, right. That you, and you're very poised and you, you carry it through the world and it seems like America hasn't affected it at all. And that's a very difficult thing to do. I, I would say when I came here I was like all just being raised in the west, being black British, you're confronted with these ideas all the time of your value being less than that. You're always having to overcome, fight against, but you seem to retain a great sense of self. And how have you done that? I'm curious.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Well, I think it helps that I came here as an adult. Right. So when I first came I was 20 and so, and I, I had to, it was a crash course. I'm learning America and as an African, you can ignore the racial dynamics, but oh, you're gonna feel em. So I went to a liberal arts school where people were asking these questions and the idea of racial, what is it called? Just racial awareness theory. Understanding that history was something that I was thrust into and picked up on. And I have a group of friends that were always inquisitive and talking about these things in very, very deep ways. I mean we never had light conversations. It was always so deep and exhausting actually. But you know, I was able to develop a racial understanding, but in a way that wasn't formative. Right. It was, it was my brain first before my heart. Right. My brain first. And then of course doing 12 Years a Slave was very, very helpful for me because I had to go back in history and take that time personally, you know, that period of time very personally. And it really helped me understand modern day America with a lot of empathy, you know, that I can now I felt in a very personal way, but I think I really, I don't know, I don't know whether I have a formula or an understanding of it. It's something that I don't question, you know? And I think, like, if I. If I try and understand it, I might jinx it.

[Unknown]

Yeah, you might lose it.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I might lose it. I might lose it. But I remember, like my mom, there was a time when my visa ran out after my undergraduate degree. I had done 12 Years a Slave, but I was on a. I was on opt. When I did 12 years. Wow.

[Trevor Noah]

Still on a student visa.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I was on student visa. Right, right.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I was a student, so. And that was only for a year. Right. And it was running out. 12 years wasn't out yet. And I was facing this thing of like, do I try and stay or do I go home? You know? And I got this project that he offered me this role. I was going to play like a Nigerian maid. And it was just so. And it was infuriating. It was one of those stereotypical roles that I felt was just taking me backwards if I did it. But if I did it, I got to stay in the country and pursue my dream further. And I couldn't take it. I couldn't take it. And my mom said to me, you have a roof over your head and people who love you in Kenya. You do not need to struggle in America for them. For them to accept you. You're accepted here. And being reminded of that, that I belong somewhere and I belong to a people. I think that really bolstered me and I chose not to do that project. And in the end, of course, everything just worked out. This is the good news. But I think I really want to give my parents credit because they instilled in me self worth that I go back to again and again and sometimes it slips. But I have my family to remind me of who I am. Right? And I know that I am not. I am. My value doesn't come in what I've achieved. It comes from who I am and who I am, like, who I'm continually trying to be.

[Trevor Noah]

I can't help but think about how important it is for countries and societies to adopt many of the ideas that you're speaking about now. Because I remember. I remember speaking to a friend of mine from Compton, and he's a comedian. And we were chatting about life as, you know, an African American. As an African. And we were comparing our experiences and our lives and so many. There were so many similarities. And I said to. One day, he looked at me and he's like, man, he's like. He's like, I ain't gonna lie. He's like. It feels like we live the same life. He said. He said, but, man, he's like, I still wish I had. I still wish I had home. And I said, what do you mean by that? Really? And when he described it, he said something that I realized America as a whole would, I think, could stand to benefit from what you said in Kenya. No one could take away your black card. No one could take away your Kenyan card. Do you know what I'm saying? No one takes away, like, your Nigerian card. No one takes away your South African card. We will fight with each other in South Africa about everything. You're this, you're trash. You're this, you're up, you're down, whatever it might be, but no one will say, you're not South African.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I. Listening to you, I can't help but think about, like, how America has unfortunately created this system where people's belonging can be, like, taken away and then given back and then take. And on different levels. You look at African Americans, it was, you're not American. Okay, you are American. And then now you complain, then, you're not American.

[Unknown]

Oh, you're not American.

[Trevor Noah]

And then you're not American. And, no, you're not. And then it's like, okay, you're not.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, how black are you? You know? And it gets taken and it gets given. It gets. And then now it's almost extended to everyone. How dare you complain about this country. You're not American. Maybe you need to go to another. And it's. It's powerful to hear you saying how much peace and confidence it gives you, knowing that you are here regardless of, like, your actions, your successes, your contributions, your mom saying to you, hey, just. You have a roof. You have people who love you. Imagine the power that would have. Like, when a country would say that, hey, yeah, you don't agree with this. You don't. You're still American.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah, you're enough.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you're enough.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

That is such a powerful thing. Yeah. To really, truly believe that you're enough. But for a country to support that narrative, I think something that America does really well is create narratives about itself.

[Trevor Noah]

Definitely.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Right. And that's why you can. It's like you either fit the narrative or you don't. Who's determining which narrative is the American narrative? You know, there is that thing, and it is unfortunate. And it's only now that I'm realizing, talking to you, the way that my consciousness is different because my Kenyaness has never been in question, even when they're fighting between Kenya and Mexico. About where I belong. Like, for me, there's no question. Right. And also, I'm not limited to that paradigm, you know, Like, I'm not trying to be Kenyan. I just am.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

That's the thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

I don't have to prove that I'm Kenyan.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Even if people would want me to, I don't have to prove it. And, like, I also realized my father fought. Has been fighting for the country. I mean, we gave up. We basically, growing up, he was like, more there for the country oftentimes than with us. Right. And so the fact that. That. Blood, sweat, tears. I've. My uncle disappeared and was never found again. My family has fought for that country in such a way that, like, it belongs to me. And I remember when. When I. When I was here and I was working on my green card and working towards citizenship, I was debating whether I was going to apply for citizenship. And I asked my dad, like, daddy, what does it mean if I apply to be a citizen of America? Like, how does that make you feel? He was like, amundi, that country is yours as much as this one. The world is yours. This idea of borders is something we made up, you know, so we get to belong, you know? And it's unfortunate that there's political systems that want to convince you that you don't belong, but you're of the earth, you know, and it's yours to claim.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I love that idea. And whenever I meet people who don't fully understand it, I've come to realize that they do it in their own lives without knowing, you know? So people be like, well, you gotta choose. I don't like it when people say they're. They're, you know, something American. I don't like it when people say there's something. Then I go like, but you. You do that as well. I'm like, where do you live? And without even flinching, you'll tell me. Well, I mean, I'm between. You know, I'm between New York and Connecticut. I'm between Florida and New York. I'm like, people do it all the time. There's a honesty in duality that exists. You know, you can be like both a mother and a woman. And the two, while they overlap, aren't necessarily the same thing all the time. You know what I'm saying? You can be young and this. You can be. You know what I mean?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Ambiguity.

[Trevor Noah]

It really is. And it's the nuance and ambiguity that I think is really beautiful. But I would love to know where you see these stories or these ideas going. Your whole. Your whole journey has been such a wonderful evolution. You know, it's, as you say, it's like 12 Years a Slave. You. You would be forgiven if you took the path that was presented to you after 12 years a slave, which is like, okay, you do this very well, and so we would like you to do it forever. And I must also say, this question is not about Hollywood per se. It's just that you happen to work in a film industry. But I think a lot of people deal with this. You did something well, and so the world said to you, hey, do more of it. And then you went and did something completely different. And they said, oh, wow. Oh, yeah, okay, do more of that. And then you said, no, I'm going to do something completely different. And they go, okay, do more of that, and do more of that. But here you are, I mean, with a podcast that is telling stories about Africans that everyone can enjoy, by the way. Like, people. I hope people listen to, understand. They're really funny and interesting. And the best way I can explain it to you is don't go like, oh, but will. I get it. It's an African story. I go like, no, think of it this way. All food basically has the same ingredients. We just cook with different spices and different flavors. And so it's like, try a story with a different flavor. That's really all it is. You know, I like that. And so I'd love to know where you would like to see this evolution continue towards, like, what does Lupita dream of doing beyond just telling the stories on the podcast? And I know you're always thinking bigger. Where do you hope to go now?

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Well, my secret intention with the podcast is that, first of all, I wanted to popularize African perspective because one of the challenges is when you go in with an idea for an African story, they're still scratching the head, like, who's the audience for this? And all that. So that was my intention, was to popularize African perspective in the hopes that maybe some of these will be a movie one day, you know, and, like, it gives more of an opportunity for people to be like, oh, yeah, it seems familiar, you know, and it's a light lift. You just spend 40 minutes with me once a week. That's not much to ask. You're in traffic anyway. Put it on, you know, mind your own. And so in that sense, hopefully it works on the subconscious of people who are not African, who are not familiar with Africa, to just recognize it as familiar in a way that then we can grow and contribute to it becoming more of a global perspective. So there's that.

[Trevor Noah]

I love that idea. I really do. And I think if there's one person who is genuinely just talented and stubborn enough to achieve, it is you. No, because you like your line. It'll really stick with me. It's like not expecting the rejection, not accepting the rejection, experiencing it, but really saying no. You know what? This is where I'm going. This is what I'm trying to do. And the world is a better place for it. Thank you for spending the time with us.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Oh, thank you.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you for sharing the beautiful stories. I know Wild Robot is out as well. That's going to be amazing for people to watch. Lupita Nyong'o, as always, an absolute pleasure.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Thank you so much. This has been amazing.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

Appreciate you.

[Lupita Nyong'o]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.