Why Are All Bosses Idiots? with Simon Sinek [VIDEO]

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Are All Bosses Idiots? with Simon Sinek"

Introduction

In this episode of What Now? with Trevor Noah, hosted by Trevor Noah and produced by Spotify Studios, the spotlight is on leadership dynamics within organizations. Trevor Noah welcomes renowned leadership expert Simon Sinek to explore why many bosses fail to lead effectively and how organizational structures can be improved. The conversation promises to be rich with insights, authentic exchanges, and thought-provoking discussions.

Contrasting Leadership Styles

Trevor kicks off the discussion by contrasting his approach to improving a struggling company with Simon's. While Simon would delve into understanding and resolving the underlying issues, Trevor humorously suggests he might recommend dismantling the company entirely to address systemic problems.

Notable Quote:

• Trevor Noah [00:11]: "If you brought me into your company and said, 'Yo, what's happening?' there's a chance I would say, you need to shut this place down."

Personal Journeys and Bilingualism

Simon shares personal experiences about relocating to Los Angeles to support his sister's family, highlighting the importance of family bonds and community. The conversation touches on the challenges and benefits of being bilingual, emphasizing how language influences personal and professional relationships.

Notable Quote:

• Simon Sinek [05:09]: "We were the only common friends. The other... We were the only."

Leadership Dynamics: Tactical vs. Strategic Thinking

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the dichotomy between tactical and strategic leaders. Simon explains that while tactical leaders excel in execution and managing details, they often struggle with long-term strategic thinking. Conversely, strategic leaders, who envision the big picture, may lack the tactical prowess necessary for day-to-day operations. This mismatch often results in ineffective leadership, especially when tactical individuals are promoted to strategic roles without adequate support.

Notable Quote:

• Simon Sinek [13:50]: "The best strategic people aren't the best at tactics, and the best tactical people aren't the good at strategy."

Challenges in Middle Management

Simon delves into the struggles faced by middle managers, who are caught between executing tasks and leading teams without sufficient training or support. He emphasizes the importance of middle managers focusing on what they can control: becoming the leaders they wish they had by fostering empathy, supporting their teams, and building confidence among their subordinates.

Notable Quote:

• Simon Sinek [17:27]: "Middle management is the most difficult job in the world because you have to be tactical and strategic."

Impact of Gossip in the Workplace

The conversation shifts to the role of gossip in office environments. Simon and Christiana discuss how gossip can both reflect and influence workplace culture, often perpetuating negative narratives that harm team cohesion. Simon advocates for responsible communication, suggesting that interrupting harmful gossip with alternative perspectives can improve workplace dynamics.

Notable Quote:

• Simon Sinek [23:37]: "Venting releases tension and prevents the formation of harmful narratives about individuals."

Corporate Purpose and Authenticity

A major theme emerges around the authenticity of corporate purpose. Simon criticizes the superficial adoption of purpose-driven language by companies, arguing that true purpose should stem from foundational values rather than being a mere marketing tactic. Christiana and Simon debate the role of businesses in fostering community and belonging, with Christiana asserting that these should be nurtured outside of the corporate sphere.

Notable Quote:

• Simon Sinek [35:55]: "The responsibility of business was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules. Forget about ethics."

Modern Capitalism and Leadership

Simon provides a historical perspective on capitalism, critiquing Milton Friedman's influence on modern business practices. He explains how the shift to profit maximization and shareholder value has led to unethical behaviors and widespread dissatisfaction, fueling populist movements and societal unrest. Simon underscores that this form of capitalism diverges significantly from the more community-oriented capitalism envisioned by earlier economists like Adam Smith.

Notable Quote:

• Simon Sinek [36:43]: "There’s nothing wrong with capitalism. There’s a huge problem with this version of capitalism."

Building Community Through Service

Towards the end of the episode, Simon and Trevor discuss the importance of community and service in finding personal fulfillment. Simon shares a transformative experience in Kenya, emphasizing that serving others can rekindle a sense of purpose and community absent in modern corporate life. They conclude by reinforcing that serving others not only benefits individuals but also strengthens societal bonds.

Notable Quote:

• Simon Sinek [77:45]: "The deepest meaning of purpose for me is the opportunity to serve those who serve others."

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with personal reflections and actionable insights on leadership, community building, and the pursuit of genuine purpose in professional settings. Simon and Trevor highlight the timeless importance of aligning personal and organizational values to foster a fulfilling and effective work environment. Listeners are left with a deeper understanding of the complexities of modern leadership and the essential role of empathy and community in overcoming organizational challenges.

Notable Quote:

• Simon Sinek [70:40]: "The people you surround yourself with can either build you up or tear you down."

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions and insights while providing notable quotes with accurate timestamps. It flows naturally, making it accessible and engaging for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, so here's the difference between us. If you brought Simon Sinek into your company.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And you said, simon, what is going wrong with this company? And what then Simon Sinek would try and help you to make the company better.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

If you brought Trevor Noah into your company and said, yo, what do we what's happening? There's a chance that I would say, you need to shut this place down. Just shut it all down. You should fire yourself and you people should ask yourself why you work here and everyone should go home. That might be my solution.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, that's a contribution, yes, but.

[Trevor Noah]

What I mean is, like you, I feel like you bring order.

[Christiana]

Trevor brings chaos.

[Trevor Noah]

This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The holidays are almost here and who doesn't love getting a little back? This season I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on presents I buy for my loved ones with my Apple Card without paying a single fee. It's simple and convenient because it's in the wallet app on my iPhone, so it's always with me. And because everything I need is in one place, it's easy to see what I've spent and make a payment. So if you have an iPhone, you can apply for an Apple Card and start using it right away. It's easy. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.74% to 28.99% based on creditworthiness rates as of October 1, 2024. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Atlassian. Atlassian team collaboration software like Jira, Confluence and Loom help power collaboration for enterprise companies around the globe. With products that enable AI powered teamwork, doing the impossible just became possible. So join the 83% of the Fortune 500 that trust Atlassian to help transform their enterprise. Learn how to unleash the potential of your [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by the Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas Celebrate the unexpected at the Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas, the most unique luxury resort and casino in the heart of the Strip. Discover a one of a kind restaurant collection, a vibrant mix of bars and lounges and three distinct pool experiences. From panoramic views on your private terrace and countless ways to be entertained, find a scene that suits your every mood and experience Elevated luxury. Nothing is off the table and temptation is around every corner. Reserve your stay [e-mail] thank you Samui. Are you guys here?

[Christiana]

Oh, you're busy.

[Trevor Noah]

Thanks.

[Christiana]

Shit.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, yeah, I'm a New Yorker, but I'm here now.

[Christiana]

What brought you here? I'm trying to get Trevor to move here. He refuses to.

[Simon Sinek]

Well, I mean, he's smart. No, don't say that. No, I make him come. My sister and her family moved here in the middle of 2019. My sister and I are very close and we work together. And so to help her ease into living in la, I got a place here and started doing the bicoastal thing. But, you know, Covid was kind of a magical gift. My niece and nephew were kids that I used to see, you know, a couple times a month when I'd drive up to the suburbs and spend a few hours at their house. And then when we went into lockdown, we were having family dinner every single night.

[Christiana]

So you're a real uncle dad?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, yeah. I came, I became. I got very, very close with those kids. And I love living in LA for them. And when they're not here, I'm very bored.

[Trevor Noah]

You do a lot of work in and around helping people connect, but oftentimes people will think of you as the guy who helps people connect in, like, a. An official setting, you know, like a company and an institution and whatever. But is there anything you can help people? Like, literally what Christiana said, How do. How do siblings become closer? Or how do they. How do they stay friends or how do they even make a friend? Because people assume you'll be friends with your siblings.

[Simon Sinek]

Right, right, right.

[Trevor Noah]

But a lot of siblings hate each other.

[Christiana]

Like, he's. He's like an uncle dad. He's helping raise.

[Simon Sinek]

For sure. I'm the third parent, which is like.

[Christiana]

Sure, I would love that. Do you know what I mean?

[Simon Sinek]

I think. And I'm actually. It's funny you say that people are very surprised by how close my sister and I are. They say, you know, what's it like working with your sister? Is that okay? As if it's some sort of disaster. And for them, I think they feel it would be. And I don't want to work with anybody else, but my sister and I talk a thousand times a day, and we bounce between work and personal stuff. And to answer your question, I don't know if there's a formula. You know, we. I think one of the things that made us close is we grew up living all over the world. We.

[Trevor Noah]

Ah, so you were your only conscience.

[Simon Sinek]

So we were the only.

[Trevor Noah]

No. Okay. That actually makes a lot of sense.

[Simon Sinek]

We were the only common friends. The other.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that actually, that makes a lot of sense.

[Christiana]

So I need to move my kids around.

[Trevor Noah]

You do, actually. You need to make them their only connection to each other.

[Christiana]

Yeah, we want to do a London stint, definitely.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Christiana]

But then we haven't chosen the place after that.

[Trevor Noah]

Do your kids already have the American accent?

[Christiana]

Obi sounds like Peppa Pig when he's speaking to me.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's fine.

[Christiana]

And he sounds like California when he's speaking to everyone else.

[Trevor Noah]

So he's on the d. He's on.

[Christiana]

The I've La Ingles. My young. My daughter does not speak English.

[Simon Sinek]

How old are your kids? How old are your kids? My son is 4.

[Christiana]

My daughter's 18 months. And I'm like, luna Trump's America, you need to learn something.

[Simon Sinek]

Well, there's, there's, there's. So there's a. If you care about this stuff.

[Christiana]

Yeah, I do.

[Simon Sinek]

So, of course I, I, I'm bilingual.

[Christiana]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

I speak English and American okay.

[Christiana]

Which are very different languages, 100%.

[Simon Sinek]

So, you know, like, kids who have French parents, you know, they'll, like, just start speaking French to their parents. They just, they go between English, French, English, French. Well, I do that, like, when I talk to my parents or when I talk to my friends in England, I have an English accent. I use English vocabulary. When I talk to my American friends, I speak American, so I bounce between the two. My sister's 100% American. Can't even fake an English accent.

[Christiana]

That's so interesting.

[Simon Sinek]

There's a feral. They found these feral kids in India, and they found that there's a critical age for language. If, if they brought their kids back into society between the ages of 8 to 10, they could learn syntax and language and they could be fully integrated back into society. But if it was later than that, the kids could only do, like, when you see, like, chimps learning to speak, it's like word association. Banana hungry. You know, they couldn't learn syntax, and so I think it also applies to accents. My sister was younger when we came to America, fully American, where I was sort of on that cusp. And so I had an English accent living here for years before I kind of lost it, but I'm still bilingual.

[Christiana]

We have three languages in our house, so English, Spanish, and Igbo. Igbo is an indigenous language from the southeast of Nigeria. So we're always using different words. But my daughter, her English is really. She just doesn't have many. She knows, like, pizza, which is an Italian word.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

So she Knows four languages.

[Christiana]

Yes. But, like, my daughter, like. And it's hard. Yesterday she was crying about something, and she was like, what was she saying? She said, este, este, which is like, Spanish for this. And I was like, to my husband, speak to her. I don't know what's going on here. So it's like this interesting thing where, like, each child is being drawn to their own culture because there's no, like, real common culture of the house. I often think about, like, when they grow up, I'm like, are they gonna be close? Are they going, you know, you figured it out?

[Trevor Noah]

You know, just move them around? Actually, wait, so let me ask you this. So one of my favorite things, just to give people a bit of context, Simon and I have. I don't know how long we've known each other for now.

[Simon Sinek]

Probably three years.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Somewhere there.

[Simon Sinek]

Two, three years.

[Trevor Noah]

But my favorite thing about you by far is that I just throw puzzles at you. I just go, here's a puzzle. What do you think? And then you'll throw some at me, and then we'll go back and forth. And what I love about you is the thing that most people like about you in the world is, like, how your brain works and how you're able to synthesize information that sort of gives us an understanding of something that maybe we didn't understand.

[Simon Sinek]

People describe you the same way. You know that.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but I'm not. I'm not formal with it. I'm like. My thing is formal. No, no, no. What I mean by this is, like.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm not an academic.

[Trevor Noah]

No, what I'm trying to say is, like, I'm not always trying to help people. I think there's a.

[Simon Sinek]

This man is.

[Trevor Noah]

I think there's a difference.

[Christiana]

Good.

[Trevor Noah]

I wouldn't distill me like that.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't think that's fair, because I.

[Trevor Noah]

Don'T think I'm chaos.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, the thing that we enjoy about each other when we talk is we both enjoy chaos and finding the patterns in chaos.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

And I think that's what creativity is. I think creativity is the ability to find order in chaos. And I love chaos because chaos is where all the magic happens. Otherwise, everything's linear.

[Christiana]

But I think he creates the chaos. That's just the difference. I think he, like, brings it.

[Trevor Noah]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

[Christiana]

If you seek it out, he's the one bringing it.

[Simon Sinek]

So maybe he makes the chaos so that he can find the.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't. I don't. You know, I resent all of these comments, but either way, I'M I'm happy to have you here. Before I get into like, my stuff, I wanted to know, is there a puzzle you're trying to solve right now that we can help you with?

[Simon Sinek]

So, I mean, the, the simple answer is yes. The. I am absolutely, absolutely fascinated by the world order. This is not something we're going to solve in a podcast.

[Trevor Noah]

No, we will, we will. We've got like 50 something odd minutes.

[Simon Sinek]

Perfect.

[Trevor Noah]

So I, most world orders I can solve in 30.

[Simon Sinek]

So I just, I find this, the world order, just absolutely fascinating, you know, and trying to understand how we got here as well, you know, where we went from the Cold War or Cold War 1.0, where it was very neat, it was very neatly organized. You had democracy and capitalists on one side and communists on the other side. And it was very clearly delineated that if you were communist, we weren't your friends. And that was it. All the communists were on one team and all the democracies and capitalists or those who aspire to be were on the other. Team play. It's very, very simple. And both, both were reasonably rational and played by very similar rules. Well, that doesn't exist anymore. And we now have ideologies mixed together. Our adversaries are also our trading partners. It's a complete mess and continues to get messier. And I'm absolutely fascinated by how our leaders don't really understand the world that we're operating in and how we got here. And yet they're attempting to make decisions to manage it or lead it.

[Trevor Noah]

So this is great because all of.

[Simon Sinek]

Your listeners are tuned in for this.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, this is great. This is why people listen. Trust me, this is why people listen. Because I feel like, to give people a little more context, you know, like you, you blew up on the scene many years ago. Now, I think you've had like multiple moments that have really put you into the Zeitgeist. But one thing that I think has separated you from many people is that you're seen as somebody who is inspirational and thought provoking and really a modern day philosopher in how we see the world. But then you're also seen like that by institutions in some ways. You know, like, so you'll get brought in to speak to like military leaders or personnel and you know, you'll get brought in to speak into like parts of government or companies. They'll go like, Simon, we need you to come in. Okay, I'm gonna ask you a. You don't have to expose anybody here. And I'll tell you what I think about it and then I'd love to know your opinion on it. In my time traveling around the world and spending a lot of time with leaders in America, not political, by the way, just across the board, people who have power over other people in any way, shape or form, I have been shocked at how much people who are in charge of shit do not know what is going on. And I'm going to repeat this a little bit slower because it shocked me when I came to the realization most of the people, many even of the people, let's not say most, many of the people who are in charge of companies, of institutions of like, you know, states, they do not know what is going on. Yeah, it's an amateur point of view because I don't work like with them. So you're the person who works with them. I want to know like the people who are running the world, do they know what they're doing?

[Simon Sinek]

I think your assessment is pretty spot on.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, we're in trouble.

[Simon Sinek]

But like when I work with government or I work with military, like, I'm constantly amazed at how much they know and simultaneously amazed at how little they know.

[Trevor Noah]

Huh. Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

And that's true for government and military. Like those things live in this strange paradox.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And it's constantly amazing to me how good they are and how bad they are simultaneously. There are multiple reasons for that. One is, and it's the same in the corporate world, which is how we promote. There are tactical people and there are strategic people. Nobody's purely one or the other. Tactical people know how to get things done. They're in the weeds, they can see the details. And the strategic people a little more blue sky can see far off horizons. The best strategic people aren't the best at tactics, and the best tactical people aren't the good at strategy. What I found is fascinating, especially when you get to the higher echelons of government or military, which is the really great strategic thinkers know that they are bad at tactical thinking and surround themselves with good tactical thinkers. The really great tactical thinkers who find themselves in high level positions think they're great at strategy.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

So strategic people are more likely, in your opinion, to know that they aren't great at the tactics.

[Simon Sinek]

Correct.

[Trevor Noah]

But tactical people are less likely to know. They think they're great at strategy, they.

[Simon Sinek]

Think they're great, and they don't even understand it. Think of it like marketing. Marketing is a little more ethereal, It's a little more blue skyish finance, a little more detailed A little more in the weeds. Right. Marketers know that they're bad at finance. Finance people think they're good marketers.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Where marketing people are like, I don't know, you should probably get somebody in finance to look at that. I don't understand. Right. And so what ends up happening is the tactical people, if they get promoted into strategic jobs, they think they understand it.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

But they don't. And it's. It's not that they don't understand. It's that they're. That their view is just too shallow. They're operating only with what they can see. And they're not very good at making decisions based on what they. What they can't see or very long term, they don't understand. Like, if you pull lever A, then these things might happen. They just like, pull lever A, get this. And you're like, yes. And this will be the response to that. There's not that way of thinking. And I think strategy in general is one of those very misunderstood things. It's hard, it's amorphous, and it's sort of in the clouds. But you're 100% right. I think that would be my assessment too. It's amazing that the decisions are being made by people that don't fully understand the nuance. And simultaneously there are people there whose minds will blow you away. How much they understand and how smart they are and how they understand nuance better than I, actually.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

[Simon Sinek]

The duality that's so confusing.

[Christiana]

I think we've all worked in places where we've been like, you know, my boss is an idiot, right?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Christiana]

And so for the person who's.

[Trevor Noah]

That wasn't you at the Daily show, right?

[Christiana]

No, I was like, my boss is this smart South African.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. All right.

[Christiana]

So brilliant.

[Trevor Noah]

Because I don't know many places you've worked. I'm just trying to. Why?

[Simon Sinek]

Why?

[Trevor Noah]

That's an interesting. We've all worked in place. Wow. That was a. I actually think Christiana does think, or did think that maybe.

[Christiana]

I didn't think you were an idiot.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Do you think of yourself as an idiot?

[Trevor Noah]

I actually do.

[Simon Sinek]

Because I think of myself, actually.

[Trevor Noah]

And I mean this honestly.

[Christiana]

I constantly disagreed with him. I still disagree, but then I'm like.

[Trevor Noah]

Which means I'm an idiot, which makes a great entertainment.

[Christiana]

I was like, this is an. I was like, he's mad and he thought the same of me, so. But I thought he was always thought Trevor's brilliant. So it wasn't that I thought he was an idiot.

[Simon Sinek]

Brilliant and an idiot.

[Trevor Noah]

Brilliant idiot, actually do think that. No, I do.

[Christiana]

But I say, like, we've all worked in places where the really smart person or the person that has the insight, whether it's strategically or tactically, is kind of like stuck in middle management and for whatever reason isn't able to maneuver to be in a position where they're like, the boss. Right. What would you advise that person? Because I know I have tons of friends like that, and I'm like, they're just stuck at this place in their career. And their complaint is, my boss doesn't know what they're doing. The VP doesn't know what they're doing. The COO doesn't know what they're doing. And it seems that, like, across the world, we just have this class of middle management who can't really make decisions, but for some reason, there's something about them intrinsically that they're not able to.

[Trevor Noah]

Do that or they stage a coup, is what you're asking.

[Christiana]

Not stage a coup, but I'm saying that the people at the top are really good at, like, Trump is great at, like, knowing how to get to the top. Whatever you think about him, he's one of these guys, he could go anywhere and end up at the top and he knows nothing. I think that's a talent.

[Simon Sinek]

Whereas he knows something.

[Christiana]

He knows something. But then the people that, like, have all the acumen, as you're saying, have the expertise, have the vision, seem to be stuck and they can't transform.

[Simon Sinek]

That's such a layered. Such a layered question. So this is the most common question I get. By the way, I'm in middle management. And by the way, middle management is the most difficult job in the world because you have to be tactical and.

[Trevor Noah]

Strategic because you're going down and up.

[Simon Sinek]

You're going down and up. You have to be do a job and also lead others doing a job. You're in a position where you have had not a lot of practice leading as well. So you're learning on the job.

[Christiana]

You also absorb all the anger of.

[Trevor Noah]

The people beneath you.

[Christiana]

You can't reach the CEO and the.

[Simon Sinek]

Anger above you when they're frustrated with the people. And it's just. It's the worst place. And that's where most things die, you know, which is, I've met, I've gone to companies where the senior leadership's incredible, they're wonderful people, focus, blah, blah, blah. And then you go to the front lines and you're like, this is an awful place. Something happens in the middle. There's a class of people who are the angry smart people who are angry. And by the way, I think they hate people like me and Trevor too. Well, I'll speak for me. There's this angry smart person who are absolutely smarter than the people above them. But what they don't understand is that intelligence alone is, you know, and book smarts is not the thing that puts you in a leadership position. Understanding people, understanding politics, understand how to navigate, you know, having eq. These are necessary skills as well. And when they compare intelligence to intelligence, they'll always come up higher.

[Christiana]

I know loads of people like that, right?

[Simon Sinek]

And in those cases, it's like the only common factor in all of their frustration with all the people they've worked for is them.

[Christiana]

Is them.

[Simon Sinek]

So either everyone's an idiot or maybe there's a skill set that those people who are advancing or mastering that they're ignoring. It's also the incentive structures. Most organizations tend to overemphasize performance results above leadership capacity. Doing the job and leading others who do the job are not the same thing. You can be a great salesperson. That doesn't make you a great sales manager, but we tend to promote great salespeople into the position of sales manager, where you lead people who do the job you used to do different skill sets. And so we don't promote very well. And so that's another reason which these people may be better leaders, but they're being overlooked because of what are the incentive structures inside the organization. And then ultimately the incentive structure is above them as well, which is the senior leaders are incentivized not to make the company better, at least in a public company, they're incentivized to make the stock price better. And so they're going to promote the people who do that. And the focus shouldn't be on the boss. You can't control people you can't control. Like, no number of anonymously sent books to your boss will change the way that they lead. Although I urge people to keep trying, keep trying, keep trying. It's not going to work, but keep trying. My advice is always the same, which is worry about the things you can control. Be the leader you wish you had, right? And so how do you help the people for whom you're responsible? How do you help them rise? How do you help them build confidence? How do you help them build the skill sets to the people to the left of you and to the right of you? Even the person above you, that's a human being too. And we don't know the stresses that they're dealing with. And to have empathy for your boss who might have just yelled at you to go into their office afterwards and say, are you okay? And truly become the leader you wish you had. Because what I've learned is, especially if you would adopt an infinite mindset, which is if you let go of that, things have to happen by a certain time. What'll happen is that influence. That'll be a really well led group. And generally their performance will go up because they're well led and senior management will either just leave them alone because the numbers are good, or if they're curious, they'll say, what are you doing? And what'll end up happening is one of those people will get promoted out. They'll take everything they've learned from that great leader and that will infect another group. And before you know it, the tail wags the dog.

[Christiana]

That's interesting. Now we're like into kind of this workplace dynamic space. Could you tell the audience more about your view on gossip? Because I come on the other side of it and I don't like the word gossip. I think we should call it oral history, because that's what it is. Oral history in real time. In real time.

[Simon Sinek]

Is that true?

[Christiana]

Yeah, I mean, I come from a line of griots, West African.

[Trevor Noah]

But wait, wait. Yeah, but how do you define gossip?

[Christiana]

So, like, I think gossip is really important for protecting the tribe. It's how we.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, but how do you define gossiping? So what I mean is, like, okay, for me, when I hear gossip, I go, gossip is a story about something or someone from my perspective that is salacious in some way, shape or form. But it isn't necessarily the same as history because history is a thing that happened. And look, everyone's gonna be biased, but I always feel like telling a story involves like a little. I think it's two things. Okay? So the main one is trying to be impartial. You don't gossip about the history of your people, you just tell the story of it. Right. That's what I think of with like.

[Christiana]

The griot, you know, but, you know, history and gossip, it's interchangeable.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, I'm, I'm, I'm with you in some ways. And then the second one for me, and this is a big one, is I don't think people ever need to whisper about histories like.

[Christiana]

Oh, some.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, I mean, I mean amongst, like. Do you get what I'm saying? That's What I always think, like, a gossip for me is this is my personal. Is like, if you ever need to, like, look before you say the thing, I think that's more gossip than history. Like, I never need to say to you, like, if you go like, christiana, tell me about your family. And then I go like, well, my mom. So my mom started working when she. That, to me, is not. It's not gossip.

[Christiana]

But you know what? History, because we're on the other side of it. At the time they were. When they were burning all those witches, do you think they were like.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but. No, but that. But that's because there's an immediate danger as opposed to, like a shaming that's going to come.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't think. I don't think.

[Trevor Noah]

So you think.

[Christiana]

I think gossip is frowned upon because women do it.

[Simon Sinek]

I will say I think everybody does.

[Christiana]

But women do it really well. Men. You know what? My closest male friends are great gossips. Again, oral historians.

[Simon Sinek]

So they'll be like, but oral history is a recounting where gossip is laced with judgment.

[Christiana]

I mean, history is laced with judgment. Like, there is no mutual history. There's no neutral history book.

[Simon Sinek]

Let's bring it down a few thousand feet, right? Which is so. I think venting is important. So you leave work that day, you pick up the phone, you'd be like. And you just get it all out, and you say all the stupid things, and you just need to get it out. It's a venting, right?

[Trevor Noah]

I think that's good.

[Simon Sinek]

I think venting is very healthy.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, okay. Venting is healthy.

[Simon Sinek]

It's like any tension in any relationship, sometimes you just need to say it and then you're fine. Okay, So I think venting at work is very important.

[Christiana]

And I'm on the other side. Like, as a black woman, I never vent at work.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, well, but I've seen it.

[Simon Sinek]

But you can vent about work to other people.

[Christiana]

Okay, go on.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, or you can vent at work about your husband. I mean, like, you vent about your kids.

[Trevor Noah]

So venting. So the most important thing for you is releasing the exhaust. That's essentially what you're saying.

[Simon Sinek]

That's all it is.

[Trevor Noah]

Doesn't matter where you're doing it.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, I think you have to have.

[Trevor Noah]

So you can vent about work at home, and you can vent about home.

[Simon Sinek]

At work, and you have to have emotional professionalism. You know, you can't. You can't vent about your boss to somebody who works for you because your voice carries.

[Trevor Noah]

Got it, got it, got it.

[Simon Sinek]

Cavalry's influence.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. And. And then you're gonna start muddying the waters. But you can vent to somebody you're friends with at work, and they know you're just venting, and it doesn't affect.

[Trevor Noah]

Their opinion about the person before you move on. Why is venting good?

[Simon Sinek]

Because I think it releases tension. Because I think if you keep the tension and it builds, it builds, it builds. And you start forming a narrative about a person, that they're dumb, they're stupid, and you start treating them that way.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, okay.

[Simon Sinek]

So gossip, I think, is perpetuating narratives that may or may not be true.

[Christiana]

Can I tell you what office gossip. Normally someone who's worked in a lot of office. It's normally done in a group chat.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Christiana]

And it's like, this is what office gossip is. It's, you know, the Christmas party. So and so hooked up with so and so. Really? They did. Oh, there are no more sausage rolls. Cause so and so took more sausage rolls. That's what office gossip is. It's just a litmus test of the culture and the happenings all the time. I'm telling you from the group chat.

[Simon Sinek]

But I think this.

[Christiana]

And then sometimes it slides into, you know, she did this today. Oh, that's so annoying. But the way gossip works and there's enough factions in the office, it's really hard to completely change the perception of one person.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Christiana]

I think I have not found a situation. And if everyone hates you, there's good reason.

[Simon Sinek]

Gossip can. Can destroy a culture.

[Christiana]

It can, but it's also, like, don't go into that guy's office because he's got. He's very handy pansy. Like gossip. No, but I'm like. Because there's been research on gossip.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, but is that. Okay, wait, that's.

[Simon Sinek]

That's. That's a.

[Trevor Noah]

That sounds like a warning to gossip.

[Christiana]

That's not gossip. I mean, it's not.

[Simon Sinek]

Wait, wait.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Gossip. Is he like. But. But I think. I think when. When you start spreading ideas about a person.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

That are unresearched, unverified, or that you wouldn't say to that person. It can be very dangerous. I know a company that gossip is a firing offense because it's so destructive. And when they think about gossip, they're talking about spreading rumors about a person, even if you think it's true.

[Christiana]

And can I tell you something about. I bet you about that company. They protect a lot of men. Oh, this is interesting, because I think gossip's a crucial social.

[Simon Sinek]

It's a very Female.

[Christiana]

If we say no gossip, I think it insulates poor leadership. I think it insulates bullies, because there are always these managers, bullies.

[Trevor Noah]

But I'm trying to share your experience.

[Christiana]

Without being labeled gossip. So it was just like, how do I.

[Simon Sinek]

This is very interesting. I think we need another word here because I think you.

[Christiana]

Oral history.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't know if that's the right word. I think we need another word here because I think you and I are talking about different things.

[Christiana]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Because I agree with you, and I wouldn't classify that stuff as gossip, but some people would.

[Christiana]

Some people would say, well, you're go. That's. That's gossip. You weren't there. You can't prove that he looked at her a certain way.

[Trevor Noah]

You can't prove that.

[Simon Sinek]

By the way, gossip spreads much quicker and easier in virtual. Like when you're in an office and you interact with people and somebody's really nice on a daily basis, always says hi. And somebody goes, that person is like the worst person in the world to work with. And they're like, they're really nice. But when we're separated from each other, what I've learned, what I've found is that. That false narratives about somebody swirl way quicker.

[Trevor Noah]

The difference, though, is, like, with gossip versus, like, let's say an office.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't love that we're all having a conversation about the office. Like, like from our corporate jobs.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but we've all been in office.

[Christiana]

I've worked a ton of different jobs.

[Simon Sinek]

I want to know the jobs you had in an office.

[Trevor Noah]

Unsuccessfully. I worked. I worked as like a. What do you call them? Clerks. Sometimes with the person's job is to, like, get the papers and Mailroom type. Yeah, like that. I've done that. I worked in an office because I was a meter reader, you know, like reading electricity and water meters. Then you'd be in the office with the people.

[Simon Sinek]

Can I read your meter, please? That was you.

[Trevor Noah]

That type of thing that's working in.

[Simon Sinek]

An office, that's going to an office and then leaving.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, what is. What is the difference between and then. The Daily show was an office for years, but you had those. So you're saying. It's funny we talk about offices. I think most people. If I was to bet most people listening to this podcast work in an office. Yeah, most people in.

[Simon Sinek]

Most people live in the.

[Trevor Noah]

In the developed world. Work in an office.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

It's like the thing.

[Christiana]

I understand the idea behind, like, let's eliminate gossip. That's not going to eliminate, like, the nastiness of office politics and how human beings behave, actually. And I think pressure release.

[Simon Sinek]

So, so we, we did this in our company because I was very public about it with the whole team, which, as I said, from now on, when somebody says something about someone's intentions or labels their character, it is everyone's responsibility in that meeting to interrupt that train of thought and raise the question. So for example, that guy's so lazy, right? Oh, my God, he's so lazy. All is needed is for anybody in the room to say, could be lazy or could be stressed or has some stuff going on at home, or we've put them in a job, they don't know how to do it and so they're freaking out. Like to just add to a list of other possibilities that it could be. That's, that's, that's getting the results that we're getting. Lazy's absolutely on the list. And it's just giving people grace that we're not judging why they're performing the way they are or why they are the way they are, you know? So, like, I'll give you another example. I went for a walk with a friend of mine. She wanted some advice and she. The conversation started like this. My boss is a horrible person. And I immediately interrupted and said, oh my God, does she kick her dog and abuse her children? She said, no. I said, okay, so we don't know that she's a horrible person. We know that she's a horrible boss. Those are two very, very different things. And I think that's the problem when we label someone's behavior or skill set versus labeling their character. And when we label their character, it's insidious and dangerous and that's when it gets toxic.

[Trevor Noah]

We're going to continue this conversation right off. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Travel is all about learning and experiencing things in a new, exciting way. But you could get even more from your travels. With the Chase Sapphire Reserve Card, you can earn three times the points on travel purchases and receive a $300 travel credit. It also comes with plenty of other perks, too, like access to Sapphire's airport Lounge Network. You can relax and refresh with locally inspired menus, a curated selection of drinks and more before getting on your flights. Make the most out of your next trip. Learn [e-mail] SapphireReserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen. All right, people, let's talk about bedrooms for a second. Do you ever wake up, look around and think, hmm, this room is not what I hoped it would be. And no, I'm not talking about the person next to you. I'm talking about the personality of your linen. Yeah, that's the thought I had. Well, that was the thought I had until I discovered Brooklinen. I discovered their King Lux core sheet set and the beautiful quilt in that tea leaf color. And now my bed looks so good it's practically judging me for wearing sweatpants all day. But honestly, these sheets have made me question how I've lived my life up until this point. Over 200,000 five star reviewers say that you've been missing out. And I'll be honest with you, I think they're right. Even the fancy experts at Good Housekeeping are on board. So refresh your space today with Brooklinen's award winning textures, layers and home essentials. Visit in store or [e-mail] that's B R O O K L I N E N dot com. Get 15% off your first order and save extra when you bundle after this short break. You know, when I'm listening to this, I can't help but, but wonder if we always talk about companies as if they're these isolated spaces, but it feels like you live in a world where you're constantly exposed to the petri dishes of society. Because what is a company if not a manufactured community?

[Simon Sinek]

It's a collection of people, right? It's the modern tribe.

[Trevor Noah]

There you go.

[Simon Sinek]

That's all it is.

[Trevor Noah]

And so these are the people you, because of, let's say, your job, maybe you chose, but you sort of didn't choose them because you, you weren't the person hiring all of them and you weren't the person. So in many ways it is like a tribe. It is like a community. These people have happened into your life and now you have to choose how to treat them and how not to treat them. So the thing that pops into my mind as I'm thinking about this is, is it harder for us to be better or to treat people or to give them the benefit of the doubt in a corporate setting? Or is this just a magnifying glass that's put on us and our ability outside of the corporate set? Like, like, where have you found it easier to apply these principles? Because everything you're saying to me sounds like things we should be doing in real life. So we should go, I don't like that person's music. I don't like how they looked in some pictures. I don't like the way they speak. As opposed to saying, that person's an asshole. And it's like, well, how do you know they're an asshole? I can tell. You're like, okay, but what of them? You know? And we've seen this happen online.

[Simon Sinek]

Sure.

[Trevor Noah]

You can just, like, build. All of a sudden there's like a movement, and everyone's just like, we hate them. You're like, but why is this an example for me was like, Anne Hathaway. Do you remember there was a time when Anne Hathaway was just hated.

[Christiana]

Yeah, for sure.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Christiana]

And she'd done nothing.

[Trevor Noah]

That's my thing. I'm not, like, chronically online. So I pop in and I'll miss things, and I'm like, what did she do? And then I'll go down a rabbit hole. I'm like, I still. I can't find it. And then she, like, danced at a film festival or something or an after party. And then people were like, she's amazing.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I was like, what. What has happened in her life or in people's lives that this shifted?

[Simon Sinek]

And that's a good example of the swirl of. So that's what I.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what. That's what I mean.

[Simon Sinek]

Someone's character. Right. And this is where I think these things get dangerous. But you're 100% right. Which is. The office is a little petri dish. And everything that we learn at work.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Is applicable if you do, like, the best organizations are values based. Right. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But let's. What's. What does that mean? I'll be honest. I'm always confused about that, because I go. For me, a company's values are to make money.

[Simon Sinek]

That's. Yeah. So that's. Go on.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no. And I mean this, and I'm not, like, saying it in an attacking way. I go. I'm always thrown when a company says, like, our values. Because I go, these are your values.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But if losing money comes into the equation, you will adapt your values. So then they aren't values to me.

[Simon Sinek]

Correct.

[Trevor Noah]

That's. That's what I always think of. So I go, like, can a company actually have values beyond making money?

[Simon Sinek]

So you are highlighting the very problem with modern capitalism. Right. The capitalism that we have today is not Adam Smith capitalism. That's not the capitalism we have today. We have a bastardized form of capitalism influenced by an economist from the late seventies named Milton Friedman. The Adam Smith version of capitalism was that the baker selfishly wants to make the best Bread so that they can sell more bread than all the other bakers. And the butcher selfishly wants to make the best meat so he can sell more than all the other butchers. And the. The dairy farmer wants to make the best butter so that he can sell more. And what you get is the best sandwich. What we as the customer get is the best sandwich. Right. So the selfish behavior of wanting to be better than the others benefits the customer. Right. And in the late 1970s, Milton Friedman wrote an op ed in the New York Times where he basically proposed a new definition of business. He actually called it the responsibility of business. The responsibility of business was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules. Forget about ethics.

[Trevor Noah]

Maximize profits within the bounds of the rules.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. Ethics are a higher standard than the rules, and you see it all the time. You know, companies did some horrifically unethical things. You know, a patent to an essential drug, and they raised the price 1500%.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. It's within the rules.

[Simon Sinek]

And they all say the same thing. We broke no laws.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Which is true. Right. Horrible, but not illegal. Right. And so in the late 70s and early 80s, a lot of sort of the ruling classes, the CEO classes, heard this definition and went, yeah, baby. Right. And they embraced Friedman's definition of capitalism or business, the responsibility of business, and they sort of doubled down on it, and you started. It gave rise to some entirely new behaviors and entirely new CEOs. There was.

[Trevor Noah]

This is just from this op ed.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, it became a popular thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow. Milton, that's a. That's a high hit rate. Well done, Milton.

[Simon Sinek]

Don't like Milton Friedman. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Is Milton Friedman still alive?

[Simon Sinek]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. That's why you can say it like that. Otherwise, that would be like, a crazy move if you were just like, I hate you, Milton Friedman. And Milton Friedman was like, I hate. Okay, you hate his. Oh, there we go. Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Can't speak about his character.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

But I don't like the work he put out there. And so you. You started to see these new behaviors arise. So, for example, the use of mass layoffs to balance the books on an annualized basis. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Did not exist in the United States prior to the 1980s. It didn't exist. Layoffs, mass layoffs were used for existential reasons, like, oh, my God, the company's going bankrupt. We have to cut 10% of our workforce now. It's like, we're profitable. We're just not as profitable as we promised.

[Trevor Noah]

You lose your job.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. That started in the early 1980s, and it started to gain popularity and then it gave rise to an entirely new type of CEO like Jack Welch, who was the CEO of ge and he was like the poster child of Miltonian economics where you started to see the shareholder being prioritized over the customer and the employee. You started to see shorter term time horizons. You started to see an emphasis on price of stock versus is this good for the company's long term value. You started to see long term greed being replaced by short term greed. I don't have an issue with long term greed, but short term greed is a problem. And the use of human beings livelihoods to maximize shareholder value. And this was all because of this Miltonian influenced Jack Welch poster child. That is the standard of how businesses are led today. There's nothing wrong with capitalism. There's a huge problem with this version of capitalism. And you can see what's happening. There's a rise of populist movements across the west and the capitalist societies. I don't care if you're in the left and right, Bernie or Trump, it doesn't matter. And they're complaining about the same thing, which is the very small percentage of the elite are getting richer and everybody else is being left behind. And when you have a huge delta between those who have and those who don't, what you get is revolution. The middle class is drying up and people are not investing in the stock market anymore. The whole stock market exists so that the average working American can share in the wealth of a nation. That's why we have a stock market. That's what Alexander Hamilton imagined, right? But that's not what we have anymore. It's become a game for a few so they can command more wealth. And just to put one final sort of cap on it, if you go back to the anthropology of leadership, like if we go back 50,000 years, whatever you want to do. Where we lived in tribes that were never bigger than about 150, 200 people, human beings evolved into naturally hierarchical animals. We're constantly assessing and judging who's alpha depending on whatever the standards are for that group. Who's alpha. And we treat our alphas differently, right? You know this. As soon as you started getting some fame, you're better looking and all your jokes are funnier, right? If you leave your jacket in another room, somebody goes and gets your jacket for you. If you're junior and you leave a jacket in the other room, you get your own jacket, right? That's just how it works. And so what we did was we assessed our alphas and we stepped back and we allowed our alphas to get first choice of meat and first choice of mate. Except the group is not stupid. We don't give first choice of meat and first choice of mate to our alphas for nothing. There's a deep seated social contract that when danger threatens the tribe, we expect the person who's actually stronger, actually smarter, actually better fed to confront the danger, to protect the tribe. That's why we give you all the perks. You don't get the perks for free. They come at a cost. And so that's the deep seated social contract. We have no problem with CEOs making more money than us. Where it broke the contract and why you get the anger is not the disparity. It's when we started to see the people who are in alpha positions. When danger threatened the tribe, the economy took a little shake, whatever it is, that they would sooner sacrifice the people to protect their own interests rather than sacrifice their interests for the short term to protect the people. And that's why we're getting the populist reaction. That's what it is. It's the people saying, you have violated your interests, that we're coming for you with pitchfork.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, it's no different in many ways to what we see in countries, right?

[Simon Sinek]

100%.

[Trevor Noah]

So people will say we want democracy. Like, the idea of democracy is very popular because it's been attached to things like fairness and equality, et cetera. But I would argue most people would be fine living in a dictatorship or under monarchy if their lives were good.

[Simon Sinek]

Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Like, it's like people don't actually care. Really.

[Simon Sinek]

The problem is succession.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that's actually the thing, you know. So what you're saying now is, I think of how many people, let's say in America, we start with the U.S. one of the more interesting things I saw was on AOC, AOC's Instagram page, right? Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, she asked people after the election, hey, I noticed that Trump won the election, but he lost on the down ballot in many places. And now a lot of people are saying this is a conspiracy. They're saying, how could Trump have won the election? But the people in these certain counties and whatever or states, they voted Democrat. But then Trump won. What's going on here? And so she said, just for me, can you all tell me if you voted for me and Trump, I wanna know if that's possible. And her, I don't know what the number was, but it looked like, she was flooded with replies. And then she started posting them on her page. And it was amazing to see how many people said, I voted for you and Trump. Yeah. Because while you two don't see eye to eye, you are both doing the same thing in my eyes, which is you're dismantling the system that has put me in this position.

[Simon Sinek]

Correct.

[Trevor Noah]

AOC's going, break it all apart. Trump is saying, break it all apart. AOC is saying, these people are screwing you over. Trump is saying, these people are screwing you over. And then you see it with leaders as well. They're killing it. They're doing well, they're having fun. And then on the ground, you're not having a good time. And then it leads us to. Yeah, it leads us to a lot of what we have now.

[Simon Sinek]

And so the reaction isn't throw out capitalism and democracy. The answer is throw out this form of capitalism. Go back.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but how do they respond when you, because you actually hang out with CEOs, how do they respond?

[Simon Sinek]

Well, the ones who agree with me hang out with me. The ones who don't agree with me don't call me.

[Trevor Noah]

Have you ever changed the CEO's mind?

[Simon Sinek]

The problem is not their mind. The problem is their incentive structure. Like, I remember I was working with a CEO and gave him some counsel on sort of how to organize things better. And he was really honest. He's like, I totally agree with everything you're telling me. And your insights are spot on. And I completely agree. And I'm going to implement none of it because if I do it your way, I won't get my bonus. He was just very blunt with me.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn.

[Simon Sinek]

But there are good leaders who are taking risks to fight the machine. There's also a younger generation of leaders that are coming up. The newer companies, the newer CEOs are raising these questions and you start to hear things like triple bottom line. And you start to hear these things. But you're 100% right. The number of. Look, the fact that I forgot all the businesses that come together, I've forgotten what they're called. But a few years ago, they put out a statement saying purpose really matters in business. But when I started, like, if you talked about purpose at work, you were just a weird ass hippie. And every company has a purpose statement on their website, even if they don't follow it, even if it's just because they have to. But that's at least progress.

[Christiana]

I think it's because we probably fall on different parts of the capitalist debate and we're not going to get into it because I hate capitalism and I.

[Trevor Noah]

But you are champagne socialist.

[Christiana]

I don't think it's a system that can be redeemed personally, especially America's history of racial capitalism. I guess I object to the fact that why should I find purpose in work? Like, I actually deeply recoil when I hear that because I'm just like, oh, so you want me to feel like it's like kind of like the wellness industry, right? This way of feeling good about yourself in order to sell me more things. And I'm like, why should. To me, my purpose can never ever be in work. God forbid an office and God forbid my boss coming to me and saying, like, what's your why? And I'm like, well, my why is to be with my family and my friends and my community. This is just how I make money.

[Simon Sinek]

Is that all this is for your transaction?

[Christiana]

Yeah. Especially Trevor. Ah, I saw the transaction.

[Trevor Noah]

This episode, we're talking with Simon Sinek about how to find meaning and satisfaction in the work that you do. And let's be honest, a big part of that is making sure you end up in the right role at the right place. In other words, it's all about hiring, recruiting and finding the perfect match. That's what's inspired this next special part of today's episode, Next Big Opportunity brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Let me give you one example of a job opportunity up Right now on ZipRecruiter, a cake maker in Pacifica, California. Yeah, sounds like a pretty straightforward job. But when you think about who the perfect candidate would be, you realize how important the recruiting process actually is.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

If you're hiring for this job, you need someone with the experience needed to fill all different kinds of orders. People have some pretty weird ideas for cakes out there, and they've got to fulfill them. So you need someone who can also work independently under deadlines. And the job isn't just going in the back room and making cakes. You have to work with customers to come up with the perfect cake for their special occasion. That's a lot of pressure. If you're applying for this job, you want to make sure the team you're joining works well together and communicates. You want to make sure this business has a good reputation and good benefits. Maybe you're looking for experience inside a small business because you may want to start one of your own someday. ZipRecruiter connects all those dots with tools like Zip Intro, where you can go from posting your job to candidate interviews to in just one day. Of course, it's just not cakes. One employer needed to hire front desk salespeople for her Pilates studio. So she used ZipRecruiter's Zip Intro tool to find and schedule back to back video screening calls with candidates. She'd only set out to hire two people, but she had so many great candidates that she ended up hiring four people in one week. Whatever role you're looking to fill, ZipRecruiter can help. With smart matching technology and handy tools like Zip Intro, you'll find a potential hire in no time. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it now for [e-mail] Trevor, that's ziprecruiter.com Tre Vor. See for yourself. Try it for free at ziprecruiter. This has been next big opportunity brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Now back to our conversation with Simon Sinek. There's a really beautiful story. I read there was an explorer. I don't know, I'm very bad with years, but I remember the stories. And it was, there's an explorer in England who went and bumped into an undiscovered tribe, right? They hadn't made contact with the English, and this guy befriended them and they welcomed him in. All things were good. And then he, like, sort of learned to communicate with them. And it was this beautiful little journey where he learned their way of life and had a wonderful time. And they were really an altruistic, you know, community. And they had different laws, by the way. Sort of murder was legal in some ways. You could just kill somebody. And then the tribe was just like, all right, well, you did it. And we keep it moving. We don't, like, judge you. We don't. But he was like, surprisingly, everyone didn't kill each other, so they were definitely different. Right. After spending, you know, months or even years with them, he goes back to England and he says to, like, the chief of the tribe and like some of the others, he's like, hey, you should come with me to England. And they travel back to England and they like spending time with him and his family. You know, you can imagine this life now. You've gone from, like, the jungle to, you know, London.

[Simon Sinek]

Victorian London.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah. And he. He says to them, he says, what do you. So what do you think? And he says, like, he thought these guys are gonna be mesmerized. Cause there's technology and, like, there's you know, carriages and there's all kinds of stuff. He's like, so, what do you think? And he says they were not impressed at all. The only thing that impressed them was the butchery. They were really shocked that you could just go and get meat.

[Simon Sinek]

They were like, what?

[Trevor Noah]

They were literally. They were like, that's the only thing that made them happy. They're like, wow, you could just go get meat anytime you want. That's pretty cool. Everything else they didn't care about. And it culminated in a question that they asked him. One day, after a week or so of staying together, he came home and one of the tribes people asked him, said, hey, where do you go every day? The guy said, what? And he said, every day you leave this. This house, you're gone. We're here with, like, your family. And then you come back. Where do you go every day? And he's like, oh, I go to work. And they're like, ah. They're like, well, why don't you take your family with you? And he's like, nah, yeah, they don't allow that at my work. That's not how we do things here. And they go, oh, okay. And they're like, well, do you like your work more than your family? And he's like, no, no, no. I love my family the most. And they said, well, then why don't you quit your work and just stay with your family?

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And he said, no, I have to work for my family so that we can live. And then they said, well, this system doesn't make sense because if you're working to be with your family, but you have to leave your family to go to work, then you're doing the wrong thing in the wrong way. And then he said, well, how do you. How do you do it? I have to have the house, and I have to. And they said, in our community, when somebody needs a house, we all come together, we build them a house. It takes us about a month. There's now a house. And then we go back to living our lives with our families. And if somebody needs something else, we get together, we do that for them. And then we go back. And he says it was the first time that he was ever confronted with the notion that the way we live isn't normal, like the office, the work, the family, the thing. And then they went back, by the way, he was like, do you guys wanna. They're like, oh, no, no, no, no. We are very happy to leave.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

By the way, give us some meat. That was really cool. And then they went back home and they lived their life.

[Christiana]

I just struggle with the idea of infusing these corporations with purpose and spirituality because I, and the community I belong to, we find that elsewhere. It's like your job is your job. I feel very fortunate to do a job that I enjoy despite it being with Trevor a lot of the time.

[Trevor Noah]

There's a whole wonderful crew.

[Christiana]

Yeah, yeah, forget them. But no, it's just, it's just like I butt up against that because in the tech world, it looks like, okay, now we're going to give you a gym in the office because that would make them feel better and they have somewhere to sleep. And like, what that gets laid actually is just.

[Trevor Noah]

How do you define the value of the purpose?

[Simon Sinek]

So we're conflating a bunch of things here.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't think any of that's purpose either. Yeah, that stuff is superficial and it's trappings, and none of that stuff makes for quote, unquote, culture either.

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. So just, just go back a few years. So there was a time not that long ago where, you know, you're right, where you went to work simply to make the money to pay for your stuff. And you had, you were friends with your neighbors and you had a sense of tribe with your neighbors. And you got, you know, some sort of belonging or community or moral guidance from church. And you had bowling on Saturdays and Thursday, you had the tournaments on Thursday nights. And we had these things, Sunday dinners. Sunday dinners. And all these traditions and, and institutions. The bowling clubs, the bowling leagues went away. Church attendance is down. We're not really friends with our neighbors, but we still have desire for all these things. And so a lot of pressure was put on work to give me these things that I used to get outside of work. So it's not all work trying to force these things on you. Some of it was the changing world around us. And we are demanding of our offices to give it to us because we're not getting it anywhere else.

[Christiana]

Yeah. And I don't, I don't want it.

[Simon Sinek]

From my office, and that's totally fine.

[Christiana]

I have to be here more and I want to be with my people.

[Simon Sinek]

And that's totally fine, by the way. And that's totally fine. But when I talk about purpose at work. Right. I'm not talking about something spiritual or anything like that. When we talk about vision, whether it's vision, the best companies sound like. They sound like social movements. Right.

[Christiana]

Which is scary to me because I don't. It's cultish. No. I meet A lot of people that work for these type of vision driven, purpose driven, I'm like, you've joined a cult and they will fire you too.

[Simon Sinek]

And by the way, but hold on, but you're conflating. So there's a swirl of stuff going on here. So you're right, it is cultish. And that's not necessarily a bad thing because it means I believe there's a shared set of values. I feel like I belong. I feel like I found my tribe. Right. The company actually does obey its values and would sacrifice its short term money to uphold its values. Those are good companies. And when you say, oh, they'll just fire you, the bad companies will trust me. I'm with you on the tip. Right? They say all the right things, they put the values on the wall, but it's all a punchline and they don't use them to make decisions. So you're 100% right there. But I'll take you to see some companies where they are treated right. They don't get fired simply because the company is struggling. And they are hired slowly because they try and choose people who believe in the same values, who are cultural contributors rather than cultural fits, which is, I like it here. I want to give to the people to the left and right of me because they give to me and they have a psychological safety when they come to work. They feel like someone's got their.

[Christiana]

I guess what I object.

[Simon Sinek]

Those are beautiful things.

[Christiana]

I think what I object to fundamentally is like the privatization of a sense of belonging. I don't actually think that's the job of a business. I don't believe that's the job of business. I believe, I believe that is actually the job of your community and your people.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I throw, can I, can I wait, can I throw something?

[Christiana]

And then I'm like, restore the community. No, but I'm not in the business of being like, let's make these.

[Simon Sinek]

By the way, I agree businesses are.

[Christiana]

Places of purpose and belonging because that's just like, no.

[Trevor Noah]

So I. So I'll throw one thing in separately actually, because I don't consult with companies in that way. But I do think, for me, at least personally, when we talk about purpose, I sometimes think about it through the lens of, funny enough, pyramids. You know, when I went to Peru and you go to Machu Picchu and you're looking at the pyramids, the immediate assumption that Western anthropologists had when they came was, oh, they did this using slavery. They were like, oh, yeah, you guys had slaves. And then that's how you built the thing. And historians who are from Peru go, no, no, no. You assume that because that's how you built your empires. You only know how to build using slavery. They go, these people had purpose. And their purpose was they woke up every day, they said, we're building a temple to the gods. And no one was, like, forcing anyone. They were like, yo, yo, temple time. Temple time, baby. And everyone got together and they're like, why do we push these rocks for the gods?

[Christiana]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And now someone might be like, ah, they were being manipulated. Who told them about the God? Okay, we can have that conversation forever. But I do think there's a different thrust that people experience where, like, you feel like you are doing something or moving towards something. And while it doesn't replace your community, for me, yeah, it. It adds to my community. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, even working with you, like, at the Daily show, working with people, there's like a vibe of, like, where I'm like, yeah, we're like, we're trying to do something. Sometimes we don't. Sometimes we do. Yeah, but there's like a. It's like we're trying to move in the same direction. And. And that, for me, if you do it right, I think it's. I think it's something beautiful. But to your point, I think a lot of companies scam people on that. That's why I was asking about the values.

[Christiana]

But even if they're sincere, I just don't think that's the role of a company. I think that's a profound failure.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but I'm saying.

[Christiana]

But I'm saying we want to go to, like, people in my family. I go to work, I come home.

[Simon Sinek]

I agree.

[Christiana]

I agree with you.

[Trevor Noah]

But I'm saying, what are you doing at work? That's maybe my thing. Because I agree with you. I go to work, I come back. Yes, but then there's also a third option, which is which work do I go to?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I think about.

[Simon Sinek]

If I offered you more money to go have the exact same job with a different person, would you take it immediately?

[Christiana]

No, but I'm in this cult with Trevor.

[Simon Sinek]

But hold on.

[Christiana]

He's trying to. I can't get rid of it.

[Simon Sinek]

You just said. You just. You just said, I'm in.

[Christiana]

I'm in the corporate culture.

[Simon Sinek]

But you're not following your own rules.

[Christiana]

No, I'm saying I feel that I come from a position where I feel like it's a real luxury to do what I do. Like, I get to write for a living. I get to think. I get to speak right. Most of my people in my life, that's not what they do. It's not what my parents got to do. That's not what my grandparents got to do. So I come from a different kind of working lineage. And because of that, I don't try and entrust too much meaning into the job. Like, it's not supposed to give me fulfillment or community, but it does. But, I mean, sometimes it does. Not all the time, but sometimes, but when it doesn't, sometimes your friends do. I think my issue is, for most people, their job does not give them that profound sense of meaning. And I'm just like, we need to live in a world that even if your job doesn't give you that, that's fine. But it seems that what you do and a lot of people advocate is coming from it, from the other side. Let's make these businesses give to people what their general world should be given to them.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't. I hear you. And I just appreciate the irony of the thing you're railing against is the thing that you fully have embraced, which is, if I offered you more, you said, it's just a place to make money, to serve my family, and I would get my community somewhere else. But if I offered you more money to work.

[Christiana]

Well, I'm a socialist. That's what, you know, champagne's socialist.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, but if I gave you more money to go somewhere else, you wouldn't want to. You'd want to stay here because you, quote, unquote, like it here. And you feel on some occasions that you actually are contributing, like the messages you're spreading and especially on the Daily show, you know, the stuff that you're putting out there in some way was informing people and helping people understand the world and make sense of the world. That was the thing you were contributing to, and it gave the work meaning. You didn't just come to work and be like, oh, I gotta work and write again. You're like, no, this is. I'm enjoying this. Because I feel like I'm advancing.

[Christiana]

I'll say I did. And maybe I come to it from a different vantage point as, like, as a mother. I have a lot of friends who have decided to spend, like, the very early childhood years with their children, which is a privilege. And it's. Because the thing that takes you out of the home has to be so fulfilling to be like, I'm not gonna be with this kid when they're learning to walk and they're learning to talk, et cetera, et cetera.

[Trevor Noah]

Don't go anywhere. Cause we got more. What now? After this. This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. No matter how you celebrate the holidays, there is one thing I think we can all share in the magic of Starbucks holiday beverages. Whether it's a Starbucks peppermint mocha, an iced sugar cookie almond milk latte, or the new cranberry orange refresher, whatever festive flavor you choose, Starbucks is here to make every moment special this holiday season. For me, it's as if every sip of Starbucks is a small, magical escape. There's nothing like sharing a moment of joy with my friends and family over Starbucks. So go on, feel the magic. Order your favorite holiday beverage on the Starbucks app today. This episode is brought to you by SurveyMonkey. The world is always changing and totally unpredictable, which is fun unless you're trying to run a business. So if you want to build products people actually love, keep your customers happy, and stop your team from setting their status to emotionally unavailable, well, you've got to understand what people are really thinking. And to do that, you need to dare to ask the questions that really matter. Luckily, SurveyMonkey makes it super easy to ask the right questions that'll drive your business forward. In fact, SurveyMonkey answers 20 million questions every single day for over 300,000 organizations around the globe. Get answers to your questions. Go to surveymonkey.com/dare. How do we better find. Not necessarily the purpose and not always the meaning, but sort of that. That. Why? Yeah, but notice that it's always shifting.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean? So I understand, like, you're talking to a company and you're saying to them, look, you are a collection of people. And so you have to ask yourself what you would like this collection of people to be moving towards or how you would like them to even be with one another. Right. That's what I assume you're doing on a good day. Yeah. But there are also people. Right. And so I wonder whether, you know, looking at your own life or looking at all of the learnings that you've come across. Is there a way that we can all. Doesn't matter where we are in our world, is there a way that we can always hone in on the sort of quote unquote, why that shifts? Cause to your point, I think it's great that a mother goes, I don't know about my job. And I think we should be living in a world where you are able to do that. Because the same people who will complain about women, like, you know, oh, she's having kids, and blah. Are the same people who often complain about birth rates declining. I always find that, you know, ironic. They'll be like, the birth rates. Look at the birth rates. And I'm like, but who do you think gives birth? And why do you think that they're not having as much birth time? You know? Yeah, it's because. No, really, I do believe that.

[Christiana]

So cost is so great.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I would love to know what you think we could do.

[Simon Sinek]

So, by the way, I think you and I agree more than not, which is just my attitude is, like, the world is the way it is, and if we're gonna go to work, then work should at least feel like I'm contributing and I want to go home at the end of the day. Like, if you work hard for something you believe in, it's passion. If you work hard for something you don't believe in, it's stress. And I would rather people, even if they work really hard, to be like, you know what? The sacrifice was worth it. Because I feel like my work has some value in the world. It meant something, and when it's done right, it's gorgeous. But the problem is, and you said it superficially, people say the same words, talk about the same values. The difference is they're not actually living them or doing them. To go to your point about the why, a why is fundamentally an origin story. That's all it is. And a why does not change. You have one why your whole life, and that's it. Because you are the sum total of how you were raised.

[Trevor Noah]

Yo, you have one why your whole life.

[Simon Sinek]

You've one why your whole life.

[Trevor Noah]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Simon. Now, I'm gonna be fighting with you before we go. Wait, what?

[Simon Sinek]

Yes, you are.

[Trevor Noah]

Tell me more.

[Simon Sinek]

Tell me more. Now we're out of time.

[Trevor Noah]

You have one why?

[Simon Sinek]

You have one why your entire life. Because you are the product of how you were raised, okay? I mean, you're not gonna, like, you are who you are, okay? And there's nothing that can happen in your life that will make you not who you are. Now you can pretend you're someone different. We would call you inauthentic. And when I uncover a why, literally all I'm doing is going backwards, discover the patterns of what made you who you are, and then I'm trying to put words on them. And it's the same for a company. Walt Disney, when it does things right, is fundamentally the origin story of Walt Disney's. Vision of the world, this escape from the stressful lives that we have to go into this magical place and we can leave reality for a moment. That's literally what it says in the plaque outside Disneyland, you know, and that's all. It's. If you look at the beginnings of things, we can do a little here. Let's have a little fun.

[Trevor Noah]

I've been having fun. Just for the record, I've only been having fun.

[Christiana]

Is welcome to what now.

[Trevor Noah]

I've only been having fun.

[Simon Sinek]

Tell me something specific that you've worked on in your entire career. It does not have to have been commercially successful, okay? But something specific that you worked on in your career that you loved being a part of. And if every project was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive. Something specific.

[Trevor Noah]

This is my thinking. Music, everyone. When I think properly, it would probably be the White House Correspondent's Dinner.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, tell me of all of the amazing things you've done in this remarkable career of yours. What was it about the White House Correspondent's Dinner that stands out that you want to bring it up now?

[Trevor Noah]

So I've actually thought a lot about this. So I'm also cheating a little bit, everyone, because I do think about this all the time. The reason it was that for me was because, firstly, I had no boss. This is very important to me in life, right? I had no boss. Secondly, the thing had a natural conclusion, right? It does not go infinitely, right? I think everything should end. I'm a big fan of endings. It's wonderful in life. Third is I could bring on whoever I wanted. And it was a wide range of people, by the way. Some people were writers, some people were not. Some people were comedians, some people were not.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so you've had those experiences in other jobs. When you were at the Daily show, you could fill the writers room with whatever you wanted. I mean, you had a boss, but kind of.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. But it makes a big difference. It's a like. Because at the Daily show, for instance, I was working for somebody, and the somebody I'm working for is the network. So you're always fighting this balance between what do you think is important to do or create and what do these people want? Because you can do what you think is important, and if the ratings are terrible, at some point, they go, it's time for you to leave, right? So now you. And to be honest with you, I think that's one of the biggest problems with television and art right now in the world, right? If you look at the MGM logo. You know, it's Trayvon, our friend, who was on one of the podcasts. He pointed this out to me even. It's like, in Latin, we know when that lion roars before the movie in Latin, it says there, art for the sake of art. And I don't think we do that anymore. I don't think we. Like. People don't make movies because they think making a movie is a beautiful thing for people to experience. People don't tell stories because it's like. It just makes you feel good as a person. No. Okay, how much will it get? Will there be a sequel? Can we get more money? Is there franchising.

[Simon Sinek]

For you? The correspondence dinner was pure in as.

[Trevor Noah]

Many ways as it could be. Yes, it was. Do you get what I'm saying? And so that's the thing.

[Simon Sinek]

So if everything in your life was like that, game. Game on.

[Trevor Noah]

Game on.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, tell me an early, specific, happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you.

[Trevor Noah]

An early, specific, happy childhood childhood memory. Damn, this is an interesting one. Let me think, because there's many. How.

[Christiana]

How old?

[Trevor Noah]

Give me an age and I'll tell you.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't care.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but what. What. When does childhood end?

[Simon Sinek]

40S, too.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. No, no, I'm being serious, though.

[Simon Sinek]

I want when you're. When you're, you know, a child, like, under. You know, in school, like.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

My early childhood memory.

[Trevor Noah]

One of my happiest childhood memories is me.

[Simon Sinek]

The only one who's ever asked me, what do you mean by childhood?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Because.

[Trevor Noah]

Because I think. Because I think your memories at different ages are very different early, specific childhood memories. Yeah. So, okay, when I think of young. Young. One of my favorite memories was playing on the. On the roundabout at a park near my house.

[Simon Sinek]

This is something. A specific time, not just a thing you did.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, this is one time.

[Simon Sinek]

Specific.

[Christiana]

One time.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, yeah, go.

[Trevor Noah]

And we were all seeing how. We were all teaming up. I got a bunch of people together to see how fast we could make this thing spin. But, like, it was. It was a monumental effort. Do you know what I mean? Because everyone had to be at the right place, swinging the thing at the right time to get it. Our goal was to make it fly.

[Simon Sinek]

That was the dream.

[Trevor Noah]

We thought if we spin it hard enough, it's going to take off. And this. This was. But that was one of my. When I think back, I go, like, wow, what a day. What a day.

[Simon Sinek]

And of all the amazing things you had happen in this magical childhood that you've talked about what specifically was it about this one thing that stands out so much that you want to talk about it now?

[Trevor Noah]

Well, I think for me, it's many of the things that I was saying with the White House Correspondents Dinner. Right. It's collaboration. I chose the people I was doing it with. We didn't pick the random kids who we knew had no coordination. Cause the thing's gonna smack you in the hands.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

So we got the strongest, fastest, smartest, like, you know, most affable. We put the people together and we were like, this works. So it wasn't like. If you were the small kid, then your job might have been to be more on the inside. If you were the big kid, your job was to push. But we put people together and it, it matched in many ways. Right. And the most important thing, funny enough, Simon Sinek, the most important thing was that we were having fun. And I mean this genuinely. We were having. We had a purpose, but man, we were having fun.

[Simon Sinek]

So you. So, so now what I'm doing is I'm looking for the connection between those things and saying, okay, that's the common factor. Right. You're the first person I've ever talked to, ever. And I've done hundreds of these who said, I'm telling you the same story. I can hear that they're the same story. But you're the first person who can hear it, who's able.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah. I'm always cognizant of these things, but.

[Simon Sinek]

So I'm just so. Just to pay you that compliment that you're living outside your own head. But this is the thing which is where you find great joy, is when you can bring the right people together to do something that matters and have a ton of fun doing it.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay. And that's sort of your, your purpose in life, which is to bring people together to do something bigger than themselves and have a good time doing it.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And if everything you do in your life you can is. Is that, is that, is that.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. We also called Merry Go Round.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. And everything in your life was like that roundabout. You, you. That is what a game on is.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And so the opportunity for you is to remind yourself of that. Right. So whether you get a Lego Merry Go Round or a picture of a merry Go round, or just you, that Merry Go Round.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, this is. I like this. I like sentimental things.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. The Merry Go Round is. It's your. It's your talisman.

[Trevor Noah]

It's your.

[Simon Sinek]

It's your. It's the thing that reminds you of why you get out of bed today, all you want to do in life is work tirelessly to create the merry go round. Right? And. And the thing is, is because you're. You have vision. We're gonna make this thing fly.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay. So people go, huh? And you go, you, you, you, and you.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay. And now they're all coming in and you're having a blast. And whether it succeeds or fails, it didn't fly.

[Trevor Noah]

It did not fly.

[Simon Sinek]

It did not fly.

[Trevor Noah]

It did not.

[Simon Sinek]

It did not fly. So it actually failed, if we're really honest with ourselves. But it didn't matter because it was the joy of the together and the fun, even with the vision, that made it worth it. It was the exact same thing. For the correspondence dinner, you'd never said at any point, and I frickin nailed it.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's not the point.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. The point wasn't the result.

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Simon Sinek]

The point was the people.

[Trevor Noah]

The outcome is a bonus. I always say this.

[Simon Sinek]

The outcome is a bonus.

[Trevor Noah]

But now let me. Let me ask you this, because I just. I love this. For me. No, no, I appreciate it, but. So the last thing I'll ask you before we go is this, then for the person. And I think this is sort of what Christiane is saying for those who are not lucky enough to find themselves in that place, in that moment. Some people can't be in a park, they can't choose the kids, they can't. Do you get what I'm saying? So, you know, what is the. What is the trick that you would recommend? And I mean this honestly, because I go. I really go every.

[Simon Sinek]

You're comparing your. Why everybody has.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

So, like. So. And it doesn't have to be a happy childhood memory. So I did this with somebody a few years ago, and I said, tell me an early childhood memory. And they said, I had a horrible childhood.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

I said, well, tell me another. Another. Any memory. And they said, I had a very, very alcoholic, abusive father, and he would go on these drunken rampages. And I remember hiding in the closet and I wrapped my sister underneath me to protect her from my father. And, you know, we're both crying as she's telling the story. She's a protector. She wakes up every day to protect those who can't protect themselves. I can make myself bring myself to tears talking about it. Right. And she was struck by this pattern that she's at her natural best and she finds peace when she's able to offer protection to others from whatever it is. And so these patterns exist for Everyone, they're not the same as yours.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And whenever somebody hears that pattern, the result is goosebumps, some sort of emotional response.

[Trevor Noah]

So all I ask you is for that person. Now let's imagine a person who goes, simon, I don't have much in the way of my community. And this is because of, you know, a series of factors. You know, there isn't a club, there isn't a. That there isn't whatever. I work because this was the only job I could get. So I don't have the luxury of being recruited and I haven't been found by where I would like to be found. Okay. But I'm also looking for a piece of this. And my job is a soul sucking experience where they want me here from the earliest time to the latest time. And I give all of my energy to this thing. And then when I get home, I have to look after my family. And this is a. How, how do they find that? Or what, what are you saying to that person? Where they don't have the immediate luxury of like springing out, searching for it, going to another place, doing another thing. What, what is like a. Because there's always something confusing.

[Simon Sinek]

Struggle and joy.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

So I went to. I went to Kenya this year and we went into the Mara and you know, to the poor neighborhoods. And we got to meet some remarkable, remarkable human beings. And I started to realize that we from the west come in. I mean, it's like your story.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

You know, it's like we have it so good. You have nothing. You live in a mud hut. How can you be happy? You know, I'll show you happiness. Come look at my house with all my stuff. Right. And all they do is smile. And you look at the children and say, they have nothing. They have no toys and they've got a tire and a stick and they're laughing. And there's data on this that children that have more toys actually have, don't have as good imaginations. Yes. He's got a tire and a stick and he's got an active imagination. And those kids, those boys and girls, all they do is smile and play. And I met these remarkable people who absolutely. Their life is difficult and the walking.

[Trevor Noah]

Four hours to sell, Right.

[Simon Sinek]

It is absolutely a life of hardship, but they are happy and they have joy in life and they look after each other. And it's everything you said. When somebody needs a house, we help them build a house and the sense of community they have. And it made me realize that we in the west are addicted to money. And we look at other people who don't have our addiction, and we feel sorry for them because they don't have our high. Like, it's a heroin addict feeling sorry for all the people who don't have a heroin high. And they're looking at us going, you're a heroin addict. But it feels so good to be on heroin, right? And that's us in the West. We're all so intoxicated with what the money feels like. We've forgotten about community. We've forgotten about sacrifice. We've forgotten about giving. We've forgotten about helping. We've forgotten about imagination. And I went in thinking, what can I give? And I came out saying, what must I learn?

[Trevor Noah]

I love that. But again, I'm just going to push you on this because I need a tip. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because I agree with all of that. But this is why I think Christiana and I are friends, because I understand a lot of what she's saying, honestly, like, innately. So I'm saying, now that people are in this situation, what's like a hack? Because there are some people who literally, they can't find the community because there is no community. They. They don't have the people around them. They live in a different country. Maybe they live. Maybe their family doesn't even talk to them. Is there like a just like a little yes hack or something? You can move that can move you towards that?

[Simon Sinek]

Yes. And the answer is service.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, damn.

[Simon Sinek]

I have a friend who was struggling. She knows what I do. And she came to me and said, I need your help. I said, okay. So we got together every Wednesday for 90 minutes, and she told me what she was going through. And her marriage was falling apart, and her career wasn't going the right way, and her kids were driving her crazy, and just. She wasn't having a good time. And every Wednesday, I would give her some counsel and some advice, and she'd feel great. That last for about two days, and then she'd go back, and then she'd come back next Wednesday and she'd feel great. And you see this pattern. This went on for months, and I finally sort of remembered my own work. And I remembered, you know, sort of my own work in service. And, like, I looked into Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, the 12 step program. The first step is admitting you, you have a problem. And if you master 11 steps, but not the 12th, you're going to succumb to the disease. But if you master the 12th, you're gonna. You're more likely to beat the disease. The twelfth step is to help another alcoholic.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Simon Sinek]

It's service. That's the 12th step. So I said to her, I sort of. I did little, little social experiment on us. I said I'm. Every week we get together and I help you. And I'm realizing I need help too. I trust you more than anybody. You're my best friend. I love you. And I need coaching too. And I was being deadly serious. It wasn't a game like. And can we split our time? 45 for me, 45 for you. She said absolutely. So the next week we got together and we spent 90 minutes talking about me. And she gave me advice and she gave me counsel. And the next week we got together and just by accident, it's not like we planned it this way. We spent 90 minutes talking about me. Within about two months, her life was back on track and she was golden. So what I recommend to people who are struggling with whatever it is. I can't find love, I can't find happiness, I can't find a job, I can't find whatever it is I'm looking for. Find someone who's struggling with the same thing and help them find the thing they're looking for. And by the way, it reinforces everything that we've been talking about this whole time, which is community is the thing. But when we're selfishly minded, we don't build community. And if you look at all of those places that we have all visited that we love, that have community, Community. Everything is about service. That's all it is. Well, I don't have the time, I don't have the energy. That's where the sacrifice comes from. We find a way to find the energy to help you build your house. Even though I got my own struggles and the joy of giving time and energy. Non redeemable commodities unlike money, you make more money to someone to see the benefit that they derive has an impact on human beings that is hard to calculate. A fulfillment that you get that can only be described as joy. And the reason is because that is the biology of how we're designed. That is mother nature's desperate attempt to get the species to survive. And we will only survive if we help each other. That's why it feels so good. And that's what purpose is. Purpose for me. The deepest meaning of purpose for me is it's the opportunity to serve those who serve others.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn, you sound like my mom. No wonder she was this service. Okay, we. Christiana, are you no, I'm, I'm. Are you gonna know? Are you gonna do the thing?

[Christiana]

No, because I agree with him now.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but you. So you don't. We don't want to find your underwear.

[Simon Sinek]

We'll do it another time. We'll do it in private, okay?

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's fine. I was just asking.

[Christiana]

No, but I agree, I agree with.

[Simon Sinek]

It's in private.

[Christiana]

The service stuff, it's. I think that's what it's about. Okay. That's the life well lived.

[Simon Sinek]

Yep.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, you see, as I said, I never know what's going to happen when I sit down with Sami Sinek. But at the end of it, there's. There's something else that I discover, a new way to see, like a paradigm or, you know, and I think everyone listening had the same experience. Simon Sinek, thank you so much for joining us.

[Simon Sinek]

Thanks for having me. Such a joy.

[Christiana]

Thank you. You gotta take me to those good companies. I thought you're thinking about Chobani, the founder of that yogurt company.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, I haven't met him yet, but I mean, they have a great reputation. I can take you if you really want to see some. Some cool stuff. We can take you to see some cool stuff.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you. What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.