Ep 461: Backlist books that make your brain fizz

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 461: Backlist Books That Make Your Brain Fizz

Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 461 of "What Should I Read Next?", host Anne Bogel delves into the niche yet intriguing world of backlist books with her guest, Nell Cavallo. Released on January 14, 2025, this episode caters to readers who relish revisiting older titles that stimulate both the mind and emotions, especially during the summer months in Sydney, Australia.

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Meet Nell Cavallo: A Passionate Sydney Reader

[06:07] Nell Cavallo:
Nell introduces herself as a lifelong Sydneysider with a deep affection for her city. Living near the beach allows her to blend her love for the ocean with her reading habits, often enjoying her books poolside. At 40, Nell embraces a single life, which affords her ample time to engage with friends, family, and her extensive reading list.

Key Insights:

• Open Door Policy: Nell describes her apartment, "House of Healing," as a sanctuary for friends and family needing a respite from their daily stresses. It's a place filled with books, good wine, and comforting foods, fostering meaningful conversations and relaxation.
• Social Engagement: Despite living alone, Nell maintains a vibrant social circle, ensuring she's never lonely and always surrounded by people she loves.

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Nell’s Reading Life: Embracing Backlist Titles

[09:35] Nell Cavallo:
Nell discusses her reading routine, emphasizing how backlist books play a pivotal role in her summer reading landscape. Due to Australia's seasonal differences, many of the anticipated summer releases from the Northern Hemisphere arrive during Sydney's winter, leading Nell to pivot towards backlist selections.

Challenges with Backlist Reading:

• Overwhelming Choices: With countless backlist titles available, Nell finds it challenging to select the right book that aligns with her current mood and intellectual desires.
• Desire for Emotional and Intellectual Engagement: Nell seeks books that are not only intellectually stimulating ("make my brain fizz") but also emotionally resonant, ensuring a fulfilling reading experience.

[13:25] Nell Cavallo:
She elaborates on her yearly resolution to prioritize backlist books over new releases, aiming for a balanced reading list that avoids getting distracted by the constant influx of new titles.

Quote:
"I just really want to pick books that are going to be great for my summer reading. You know, I've got time off. It's usually a time of year that I can read loads." — Nell Cavallo [30:24]

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Exploring Successful Reads: Books That Made Nell’s Brain Fizz

Nell shares three beloved books that have provided her with the perfect summer reads, each offering a unique blend of emotional depth and intellectual stimulation.

1. "Call Me by Your Name" by André Aciman

   • Setting: Italy in the 1980s
   • Themes: Intense relationships, vivid sense of place, emotional atmospheres
   • Personal Connection:
     "It's beautifully written, there's a lot of that sense of place... I remember reading it at the pool a few summers back and just absolutely gobbling it up." — Nell Cavallo [19:30]

2. "Dirt Music" by Tim Winton

   • Setting: Australian landscape, combining desert and sea
   • Themes: Environmental activism, intense relationships, sweeping narratives
   • Recommendation:
     Anne Bogel expresses her excitement about Winton's work, particularly suggesting "Cloudstreet" for listeners.
     "His books are a great place to start for international readers if you want to get a sense of what the country is like." — Nell Cavallo [22:04]

3. "American Wife" by Curtis Sittenfeld

   • Setting: Spanning from childhood to the White House
   • Themes: Complex relationships, political backdrop, readable yet meaty narratives
   • Appeal:
     Nell appreciates the balance between plot and prose, finding it a smart and fun read without sacrificing quality writing.
     "I think it's just one of those books that's smart and it's fun. It's really readable without sacrificing the great writing, which is important to me." — Nell Cavallo [24:09]

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Books That Didn’t Hit the Mark: Learning from Misses

Nell also candidly discusses a book that didn’t resonate with her, providing valuable insights into her reading preferences.

• "Acts of Desperation" by Megan Nolan
  • Reason for Dislike:
    The book’s portrayal of a toxic relationship felt too close to home for Nell, making the reading experience uncomfortable despite the strong writing.
    "It was a topic that was all wrong for me... bringing your own experiences to the text." — Nell Cavallo [25:18]

Key Takeaway:
Nell emphasizes the importance of personal resonance in book selection, highlighting that even well-written novels may not be suitable for every reader based on individual experiences.

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Current Reads and Literary Exploration

Nell updates Anne on her latest reading adventures, showcasing her commitment to exploring diverse and thought-provoking literature.

• Shirley Hazard’s "Bay of Noon"

  • Appeal:
    Nell admired Hazard’s meticulous writing process, noting the book’s evocative portrayal of Sydney and its limited yet impactful bibliography.

• Books from the Booker Prize Longlist and Shortlist (2024)

  • Highlights:
    Titles like "Coloured Television" by Danzi Senna stood out for their humor and sharpness, adding to Nell’s diverse reading palette.

Quote:
"She labored over them. She put them out into the world. She had a long career that didn't generate an unmanageable body of work." — Anne Bogel [37:07]

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Recommendations for Future Reads

Anne and Nell engage in a personalized literary matchmaking session, where Anne recommends books that align with Nell’s preferences for emotionally and intellectually stimulating reads set in evocative locations.

1. "Tin Man" by Sarah Winman

   • Overview:
     A nuanced exploration of love, grief, friendship, and loss set against the backdrop of Oxford and London.
   • Nell’s Reaction:
     Enthusiastic about the depiction of Sydney, aligning with her love for books set in her beloved city.

2. "Whalefall" by Elizabeth O'Connor

   • Overview:
     A compact novel set in a remote British Isles island in 1938, intertwining themes of coming of age, community dynamics, and personal mysteries.
   • Nell’s Reaction:
     Excited about the strong sense of place and the promise of engaging prose, perfect for summer reading marathons.

3. "You’d Be Mother" by Meg Mason

   • Overview:
     The story of Abby, an 18-year-old navigating pregnancy, motherhood, and complex familial relationships in Sydney.
   • Nell’s Reaction:
     Intrigued by the Sydney setting and the depth of character development, making it a top pick for her next read.

Final Decision:
Nell opts to begin "You’d Be Mother" by Meg Mason, drawn by its relatable setting and compelling narrative.

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Conclusion and Takeaways

This episode of "What Should I Read Next?" offers a deep dive into the nuanced preferences of avid readers like Nell Cavallo, who seek backlist titles that offer both intellectual stimulation and emotional resonance. Through thoughtful discussion and personalized recommendations, Anne Bogel effectively guides Nell towards books that align with her summer reading aspirations, showcasing the beauty of literary matchmaking.

Notable Quotes:

• "I love that feeling when I am kind of intellectually stimulated... but I'm still emotionally engaged as well." — Nell Cavallo [29:08]
• "You want books worthy of your open readerly hands." — Anne Bogel [34:37]
• "Books that are smart and zingy and make my brain fizz, but that still have an emotional resonance." — Nell Cavallo [29:16]

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Final Thoughts

For readers grappling with the vast expanse of backlist titles, this episode serves as a beacon, illustrating how understanding one's reading preferences can lead to a fulfilling and enjoyable reading journey. Whether you're in Sydney or elsewhere, Anne and Nell's conversation underscores the timeless allure of well-chosen books that resonate on multiple levels.

Listen to the full episode on What Should I Read Next? Podcast

Transcript

[Anne Bogle]

Foreign hey readers, I'm Anne Bogle, and this is what should I read next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest. Readers first it is a new reading year, and that makes it a great time to start a new journal. No matter what your reading goals are for the year ahead, or if you even have any, keeping track of what you're reading has a big impact on your reading satisfaction. Keeping track of what you think about each book is a powerful way to better understand what you love and why. And when you understand those things, it's easier to know what else you might enjoy reading next. Also, what titles are better left on your unread shelf? That's why I designed my reading journal, My Reading Life, which makes the perfect companion for your year of reading. It's thoughtfully compiled with book lists, quotes, and space to jot down notes about each book you read. Get [e-mail] shop or at your local bookstore. Readers after the sparkle and shine of the holidays wear off, it's easy to feel a bit glum once winter really settles in around here. That means lots of very gray days and long winter nights. And one way I keep my spirits up is by really leaning into dressing for the season. Fortunately, that doesn't mean I'm breaking the bank, because with Quince, I can add everyday luxury to my life at an affordable price. Take Quince's iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters. These are my favorite pieces to wear this time of year, and their cashmere starts at just 50 bucks. If silk is more your style, they have options. Check out their washable silk skirts or the fantastic washable silk tiered maxi dress I wear all the time and if found, looks really cute with tights and a heavy jacket. Or make your bedroom your winter haven with their indulgent European linen sheet sets. Everything from quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They're able to create their clothes from premium fabrics at affordable prices by partnering directly with the top factories. No middleman means you enjoy those savings. Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quints.com readnext for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com readnext to get free shipping and 365 day returns quints.com readnext Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns readers. This time of year, many of us are making resolutions or setting new goals. I've always found that I'm more likely to keep on track for my resolutions by automating them, like signing up for a healthy food delivery service or canceling a streaming subscription to save a few extra dollars. If investing is on your 2025 resolution list, take a look at Acorns, an automatic investing app. It only takes five minutes to open your account. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement. Acorn, you don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns let you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change. Basically, Acorns does the hard part so you can give your money a chance to grow. Head to acorns.com readnext or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to Positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor view important [e-mail] ReadNext readers I talk to many seasonal readers and today's guest has a twist on the usual seasonal reading dilemma. That's because Nell Cavallo is joining me today for mid summer in Sydney, Australia. When Nell sent in her guest submission for the show and she did that at what Should I read next? Podcast.com guest she told us that for her, winter meant reading the shiny and new, but summer was for backlist titles. And she really loves reading backlist. However, she agonizes over choosing what older books to read next, which she noted was really interesting cause she doesn't agonize over the shiny and new, she just jumps in. But the there are so many good backlist books to read. She wants to make careful choices. She wants them to be the right ones and it can leave her feeling stuck. Today we're going to talk about it all, plus focus on books that provide her with that brain fizzy feeling she loves. Especially books that are emotionally resonant and intellectually stimulating. Let's get to it. Nell, welcome to the show.

[Nell Cavallo]

Hi Ann, thanks for having me.

[Anne Bogle]

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks so much for talking books today.

[Nell Cavallo]

I am excited.

[Anne Bogle]

Although. Here's a peek behind the scenes, listeners. You're in Sydney, Australia, and I'm in Louisville, Kentucky, and finding a time where we're both awake was a little bit more of a challenge than it typically is.

[Nell Cavallo]

That is true. I come to you from the future. It is Wednesday here, and I think it's Tuesday there.

[Anne Bogle]

Does that mean. No, it doesn't. I. I was wondering if Tuesday would not be what should I read next day in our Australia. But we publish very early in the morning, so we can catch you in the afternoon or evening.

[Nell Cavallo]

I do get it on a Tuesday. Yeah.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. We were just saying that time zone math is not complicated, and yet I do not find it to be easy.

[Nell Cavallo]

It is not easy from Australia. We are in a completely different time zone, obviously. So calculating whenever my friends are awake in various parts of the world is not fun.

[Anne Bogle]

Well, thank you for making the effort for the books.

[Nell Cavallo]

Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm really excited.

[Anne Bogle]

Now, tell our readers about yourself. We'd like to give everyone a glimpse of who you are.

[Nell Cavallo]

Well, I am a Sydneysider, born and bred in Sydney. I love Sydney so much. Yeah, I'm very passionate about this city. I think it's a great place to live. I live a few blocks from the beach, which is fantastic in the summer especially, and it is summer here at the moment, so I can pop down for a swim on my lunch break if I'm working from home. And I try to get down there a lot. I love reading down at the beach as well. That's one of my favorite things to do. I am a single gal in my 40s. I've got no kids, so I have a sort of relatively unusual life compared to a lot of other people. But it gives me a lot of time to really enjoy life, which is kind of a big philosophy of mine. You know, I'm all about just, you know, we get. We get one chance on this planet, so go out and live it and enjoy it. So Sydney has great museums and it's got a great theater scene. I have a ton of friends. I have a big family. My family's Italian, so I have a lot of cousins. And, yeah, I just love spending time with people. It's my favorite thing.

[Anne Bogle]

Tell me about your House of healing that you mentioned in your submission.

[Nell Cavallo]

Oh, my House of Healing. Yes. My. My little apartment. Well, because I do have a very independent life. I live alone, so there are no Husbands or wives, no kids, no pets, no flatmates. And I just have this open door policy with my friends and family that, you know, if they need a little bit of a break from their own life, they can come here and just sleep in the spare room and drink good wine and eat nice cheese or whatever it is that we have in the house and we can just talk and they can sort of let their problems go and, you know, leave their mum hat behind or their wife hat behind or their, you know, work hat behind and just come and just enjoy being in hopefully a bit of a calm and peaceful space. I have lots of bookshelves and I always have bubbles in the fridge and, you know, it's just that kind of place. I want people to feel like they can come here and leave their worries behind and just, you know, enjoy being alone maybe for a second or away from the things that are bothering them.

[Anne Bogle]

I love that for you and also that you said in your submission that it makes you really happy, but also I imagine it makes others happy as well.

[Nell Cavallo]

It does make me happy. I love having people here. And, you know, I think when you are single, which is partly by choice, you know, I chose this life which is slightly different, I guess, from other lives, but I chose it because I. I really, you know, wanted to embrace being able to do things, have a life of learning and have a life of knowledge and have a life of, I don't know. Yeah, being around people all the time, which is my favorite thing. So I, I love having people here. But being single also means you do have to, you know, make the effort to be around people. I get asked a lot, are you ever lonely? And I'm like, mate, I am never lonely. I wish I had time to be lonely. I don't. There's always people here. I'm always out. Yeah, it's a great life. I. I love it.

[Anne Bogle]

Glad to hear that. Now tell us about your reading life. What does that look like right now?

[Nell Cavallo]

Well, look, if I'm not reading like so many of your listeners, I'm sure I don't feel like myself. I have always read. It's sort of what I do to relax. The thing about Australia is that we are a little bit seasonally backwards to the rest of the world. So when the big summer releases come out, or the big spring releases or the big fall releases, or autumn, as we would say, here we are in a completely different season. So a lot of the time, the big summer books, for example, come out in winter here. So by the time it gets round to summer, they're done, I've read them. So I have to look for kind of other things to pick up, which is interesting. And that's why in the summer I do tend to read a lot of backlist books. Books, because I feel like I'm kind of done with all of the big new releases by that point. But I find my backlist TBR so overwhelming and I find it really hard to kind of not even know what to pick up. Yeah, I guess decide what to pick up, but also feel the same enthusiasm for picking up a backlist book. I feel like all of the buzzy titles are done throughout the year. And part of the fun of reading for me is that I love talking to people about books. So I'm on Bookstagram and I've made lots of bookish friends. And yeah, I love being part of the dialogue, I guess, around books. And I think with backlist, quite often you're reading something that nobody else is reading, which is partly exciting. And I have to say my backlist reading is usually really good. Like, you know, I enjoy so much of what I pick up, but I think a tiny part of me is like, oh, I wish other people were reading this as well so I can chat about it with them. But yeah, so it's summer here right now. I've read, I think, most of the big releases of the year and I don't know what to pick up next.

[Anne Bogle]

Well, you know what, it sounds like, it sounds surprising to this US based reader. I'm wondering if it's because of your particular way of finding out about books or if it's because of what book coverage is like globally at least us, UK to Australia, that you're thinking about the big books of our summer being the big books of your winter. How much does Australia have its own reading cultural landscape that would be informing your reading choices directly right there in your country where it is summer right now.

[Nell Cavallo]

Oh, look, Australia has a brilliant literary scene. I'm only sorry that the books don't always make it sort of overseas. Sometimes they do, but I think we are so lucky to have amazing writers. It's actually been a brilliant year for Australian new releases. But I would say that it is still the same case where a lot of the big books are kind of still done by this time of year. So we're kind of headed into a bit of a lull period with Christmas and New Year. That is that because. Because it's summer here, obviously everybody's on break. So, like, you guys would have your summer holidays I suppose in July, we would have our summer holidays kind of now just ahead of Christmas and sort of right through January, that's when the kids are off school. So it's not really ideal. Even though it is our summer, when you would expect big books to be published, it actually is not ideal here because everybody is off work. So it's not really a big time for books. Most of them have come out okay.

[Anne Bogle]

Now, I'm just looking at your submissions where you say that summer reading is a great opportunity to read backlist books instead of the shiny and new. But you want to know how to pick good ones for the season.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, that's right. Like I said, I have so many backlist books that I want to get to, and I'm very distracted throughout the rest of the year with new releases. I always, always, always, always make the same reading resolution at the beginning of the year, which is read more backlist, and don't get distracted by new releases. And, you know, because a lot of the time, this is the thing with me, I just want to read all the new releases, even if I don't necessarily think they're books that I would love, which is fine. I like. I think it's good to read different types of books, and I think it's good to read books that you don't necessarily love because you can always, like, learn something there anyway. But it does affect the balance of books that I'm reading. So at the start of the year, I'm always like, right, I'm going to be super careful about what new releases I'm going to pick up, and I'm going to really balance that with a good smattering of backlists throughout the year. And, yeah, it falls flat most times I get to this time of year.

[Anne Bogle]

And I'm like, oh, well, I'd like to hear more about that. What happens?

[Nell Cavallo]

I don't do it, Ann.

[Anne Bogle]

I don't do it.

[Nell Cavallo]

It's ridiculous. I like, honestly, the thing that's funny is that I really agonize over what backlist books to even add to my tbr. I feel like in the backlist department, that's when I'm spending the most time researching and reading reviews and, you know, trying to think, is this something I even would enjoy? And, you know, what's this author about? And all of that kind of stuff. You know, I spent a lot of time deep diving into that before adding it to my pile. But with new releases, mate, I walk into a shop and I come out with, like, six new releases. I don't even know what's happened. It's. I haven't. I don't. Yeah, it's not good. It's not good.

[Anne Bogle]

How do you feel about this? Like, do you wish things were different? Are you pretty happy with how it's working out for you?

[Nell Cavallo]

No, I do wish things were different because I want to be a more conscientious reader. Know, like I said before, our time on the planet is limited. So I don't want to spend it always reading books that are not necessarily going to work for me when there are so many brilliant things that I could be picking up that are in the backlist department and that for some reason just don't hold the same kind of. Yeah, shiny new toy feeling that the new releases do. So and part of the reason for that is because of how high my success rate is from an enjoyment factor when it comes to backlist. Like maybe because I have done so much research into it, I sort of tend to, I tend to enjoy what I pick up. But yeah, I get very distracted throughout the rest of the year. So when the sort of publishing season picks up again here and probably around the rest of the world, I'm not sure, but let's say March, that's when it all falls over.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, now we're going to talk about Your Favorites and Mrs. Books that missed for you. And as we are exploring how to move forward, I'll be really interested in hearing how different you want the situation to be or not. So that's coming. What do you think? Are you ready to talk about the books you brought today?

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, I definitely am because these have all been really successful books for me in summer, previous summers. So I'm hoping it will sort of remind me of why these books, I don't know, felt so great in the time that I was reading them and make me excited to sort of pick up more like them maybe in. In the summer ahead.

[Anne Bogle]

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[Nell Cavallo]

Call Me by your Name by Andre Aciman. It's such an evocative book. It's set in Italy in the 80s. It's got a really strong sense of time and place. And you know, it's actually big on vibes, this book. It actually is less about the plot and more about the vibes. It's about this really intense relationship so you get those really beautiful feelings coming out. It's beautifully written, there's a lot of that sense of place in terms of, you know, they're walking, taking walks by the sea and in the woods. And I really love that atmosphere that it brings, both in the emotional atmosphere, but also the physical atmosphere. So I loved that book, and I really specifically remember reading it at the pool a few summers back and just absolutely gobbling it up. It was so good.

[Anne Bogle]

Is it just pure coincidence that you have your family ties to Italy and this book is very Italy?

[Nell Cavallo]

No, I don't actually think it is. I love books set in Italy. I love translated books set in Italy. I love, like, Elena Ferrante and, you know, all of those sorts of things. No, I don't think that's a coincidence. It's something I would reach for, for sure.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. He has a new memoir out, and it is, I'm sorry to say, a new book that came out in the US this fall, but. But there's a lot of Italy.

[Nell Cavallo]

Okay, that's good to know.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, thanks for telling us about that one. What's the second book you love now?

[Nell Cavallo]

The second book I love is Dirt Music by Tim Winton. Look, I could have picked any of Tim Winton's books. He is an Australian writer. He's an activist. He's passionate about the environment, the ocean, and that is something that really comes out in all of his work. He writes so passionately about the Australian landscape, which is quite unique. I think I picked Dirt Music because it's got that combination of kind of the desert and the sea in the book. And again, it's just so evocative. And weirdly, now that I think about it, it is also about a very intense relationship between a woman in her 40s and this guy who's a fisherman, a poacher, actually. He's illegally fishing, and so there's lots of drama around that. And she's already in a relationship with someone else, so the whole thing is super intense, but so is the landscape. This is a really sweeping book in terms of sense of place, and I think that is something he does so beautifully.

[Anne Bogle]

I am so excited to hear you talk about Tim Winton, because I haven't read a single one of his books, but Cloud street specifically, has been enthusiastically recommended to me because of what I tend to love by several readers, including some of our what Should I Read Next? Alumna Guests. And I downloaded cloudstreet actual years ago at this point and haven't read yet. Can you sell me harder on Tim Winton? Maybe this winter is my Tim Winton season.

[Nell Cavallo]

Oh, yes, that would be well it will certainly transport you to a hot and dry landscape. Oh, he's just, you know, he writes so lushly and vividly about Australia and I just love that. It's nice to read about your home, especially when you love your home. That passion and that activism that he. He works so hard at, you know, that really comes out in his books. You can see how much he cares about the place that he lives in. I love that he writes with a sense of Australia. And I don't know how to describe that better other than he, you know, the language that he uses is very Australian and the way he talks about place is very Australian and I just really love that. And I think it's sort of a unique thing that he does that I think would be great for international readers if you kind of want to get a sense of what the country is like. I think his books are a great place to start.

[Anne Bogle]

Amazing. Thank you. I have Cloudstreet ready and waiting for me. Nell, what is your final favorite American.

[Nell Cavallo]

Wife by Curtis Sittenfeld, which I think is a little bit different to the previous two. I really love her books. I want to talk about this one because I think it's a really good example of the type of book that I perceive would be good for summer because it's kind of got plot but also prose. I'm not really someone in the summer that would reach for a rom com necessarily, or a thriller or something that maybe is typically classed as a beach read. Not that I have anything against those things, but I still want a bit of a meaty book. But I also want it to be quite readable. And I think she does that really well in. In all her books. And you know, I think this one is interesting because it's a little bit of a whole of life book. So you get main character is Alice and you sort of go back in time to her childhood and right through to her meeting the guy that she ends up marrying who becomes the President of the United States and sort of end with her time in the White House. So I really like that as well. I know it's based on Laura Bush, honestly, or supposedly based on Laura Bush. That is neither here nor there for me. I didn't really know that much about Laura Bush anyway because I am Australian, I guess, and it's not something I was. I felt you needed to know anything about. I just enjoyed the story for what it is. But yeah, I think it's just one of those books that's smart and it's fun. It's a bit Gossipy, but not too much. It's really readable without sacrificing the great writing, which is important to me.

[Anne Bogle]

Nell, tell me about a book that was not a good fit for you and I'd love to hear why. Like, was it not to your taste? Was the timing wrong?

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes. Okay, so the book is Acts of Desperation by Megan Nolan. You know, this was a case of the book just actually feeling a bit too close to home for me. The writing is great, but it's actually almost too realistic in the way it portrays a very consuming, very toxic relationship. So the narrator of the book, she falls very deeply in love with this awful person who, you know, kind of reels her in and spits her out pretty brutally, I think. And the book, I think, is exploring that fine line between, I guess, desire, but then also just misery. Look, I've been there and I think that was partly why I just was. So, yeah, I didn't enjoy the reading experience, but I think the thing is about books is that you do bring your own experiences to the text. And so for me, you know, this was just one of those ones that I. I probably should have known that it wasn't going to work, but I. It was. You know, funnily enough, this was one that everybody was talking about and I wanted to read it because everybody was talking about it because she was kind of this new Irish writer at the time, and I wanted to pick it up. But yeah, it just. It's not that it didn't work for me in terms of. I thought the writing was great and, you know, clearly very talented. But. Yeah, I think it was a topic.

[Anne Bogle]

That was all wrong.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, it was a topic that was all wrong for me. Yeah. And I read her second book and loved it, by the way, which came out recently, Ordinary Human Failings. So she's great. But that there's just some things that I think, you know. Yeah, you're bringing your own stuff to it and it doesn't work.

[Anne Bogle]

That's helpful. So you've mentioned two of your books portray intense relationships and you enjoy that. I haven't read the Megan Nolan novel, but I've seen this described as an anti romance. And that is not for you.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yeah, not for me. Toxic relationships in books is something I generally do not love, just purely because. Yeah, I think anyone that's kind of been in those situations probably, probably doesn't want to really emotionally go back there if they can avoid it.

[Anne Bogle]

All right. That pen scratch sound is me making notes. No toxic relationships for now.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Nell, what have you been reading lately?

[Nell Cavallo]

Lately, I have been reading. Oh, a whole bunch of stuff. I just finished my first Shirley Hazard book, which I was obsessed with. I cannot believe I haven't read her before. Great example of a backlist author that I have not avoided for years, but I sort of has mulled in my head for a long time and I just never prioritized. And then I picked up the Bay of Noon and I loved it. Is it a coincidence that the book is set in Naples, southern Italy? But, yes, I loved that. I have been reading some of the books from the Booker Prize longlist and shortlist. I've actually read all of them. I ended up reading the whole Booker Prize longlist, which was fun.

[Anne Bogle]

Was that in 2024?

[Nell Cavallo]

Yeah, in 2024, some landed better than others for me. I loved the Tommy Orange book. I loved My Friends by Hisha Mehtar. I loved that book. Oh, I've been Reading, which was on one of your guides, I think. I can't remember which one. Maybe the summer reading guide, Coloured Television by Danzi Senna. Loved that book. That was so great. It was so funny and, you know, so sharp. So, yeah, I gobbled that up too.

[Anne Bogle]

Now, that's a lovely assortment of books that have really worked for you, of books that have. Is it true they've all been successful?

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, they've all been successful.

[Anne Bogle]

Why don't you tell me what makes a read successful in your eyes?

[Nell Cavallo]

I just want to be really engaged with the book. I sort of talk about sometimes when I review books. I'm like a book made my brain fizz. And I love that feeling of when I am kind of intellectually stimulated, for lack of a better word. Like, I. I like that feeling. But I'm still emotionally engaged as well, and that, for me, is a really successful reading experience. I read the Alternatives by Kalyn Hughes, the Irish writer, this year, and that is the perfect example of that. It's so smart. It's doing interesting things with form and structure. But at its heart, it's still about four sisters and, you know, their lives and them trying to come together for a particular, you know, reason. And that is the emotional heart of the book. So those are. That's the combination that I think works best for me. Something that is, yeah, smart and zingy and, you know, yeah, makes my brain fizz, but that still has an emotional resonance.

[Anne Bogle]

Tell me more about agonizing over backlist selections.

[Nell Cavallo]

Oh, yes. Why do I agonize? I think because there are so many books in the world and I wish I could get to all of them, but I can't. And so it's just that sense of wanting to make good choices so that you have a really great reading summer. That is really all it is. I just really want to pick books that are going to be great for my summer reading. You know, I've got time off. It's usually a time of year that I can read loads. Things are a bit slower. You've got time to pick up books. And I can usually get through more reading in the summer than any other time of year. I'm not someone that likes reading in bits, so I'm not somebody I know. Some people are really good at taking their books to doctor's appointments and to, you know, in waiting rooms or sitting somewhere waiting for someone and you whip your book out. I'm not good at that at all. If I'm reading, I like to read, or my ideal reading set circumstances are reading for long chunks of time, if I can. So summer is perfect for that. I love reading books in a day or a couple of days. Summer just gives you the opportunity to do that. I just want to pick the right books or I just want to get excited about the books that I'm about to read.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, you want to be excited about it. Let's talk something through. Okay. Even though it feels like so many new books are out and available and ready for us to read, that selection is more limited than our selection of all the backlist titles that have ever been published prior to 2024 stands.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Is there something there I'm playing with that versus the wanting to talk to people about the books?

[Nell Cavallo]

Yeah, I think you're maybe right there because you. I can talk to people about any book is the reality. So you. I think it's nice. I like the communal experience about talking about the same book. But at the end of the day, one of the really lovely things about being online in the book world is that you can always talk about books. So I don't really think it's necessarily that. I think the choice just overwhelms me, I guess with new releases. Yeah, it is true. There is a set amount of what's being published, and a lot of the same books will appear on the same lists and, you know, the same, like most anticipated books of 2020, whatever. So you kind of have a very definite sense of maybe what's available to you in that year. But I think with backlist reading, it is a little bit different in that, you know, in the history of time, there have been billions of books published. And where do you even start with that?

[Anne Bogle]

That's really helpful, what you said. So you want to be excited about the book you're going to pick up next. With a new book, it's easy to be excited because there's buzz. People are talking about it and it feels like there's a reason to read it now. But when you're by yourself looking at your shelves because you mentioned in your submission you had a ton of books that you were excited about at one point. That's why you had them. And now putting words in your mouth, try this on, See how it feels. You're not, not excited about them, but you're not looking at the bookshelf going, oh, yes, that. Now like that. That's not the vibe. So you need a reason to reach for that specific, specific book over the other ones because it's the right book for you right now.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, I think that's definitely true. And maybe that's why the summer thing is important. Because there is a vibe in the summer that I want to match my books to, which maybe is about sense of place or is about smart but readable texts that I can just whiz through because that is a feeling I love in the summer.

[Anne Bogle]

I'm excited for you. I mean, no, you can hear yourself like, here I am, I'm a reader. I've got time to read. I want to sink into something. What should it be? What a picture. I'm excited for you. And you need books worthy of your open readerly hands.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, that's so true. Worthy of my vibe. Yes, Ann, I love that. Yes. They need to be worthy of me. That's what I need.

[Anne Bogle]

Let's do this. You ready?

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, I'm ready.

[Anne Bogle]

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[Anne Bogle]

The books you loved were Call Me by your Name by Andre Aciman, Dirt Music by the Australian gem Tim Winton and American Wife by Curtis Sittenfeld. Not for you. Acts of Desperation by Megan Nolan. An anti romance is not for you. Not now. Maybe not ever. Not ever.

[Nell Cavallo]

Maybe. We'll see.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, it doesn't matter. We are talking about this summer, not all the summers to come. Yes, and lately you've been reading a bunch of good stuff. Stuff that has really ticked all your boxes, including the Bay of Noon by Shirley Hazard. And let me just say, her M.O. was to spend 10 years writing each of her novels. She labored over them. She put them out into the world. She had a long career that didn't generate an unmanageable body of work. So you could hang out with some Shirley Hazard books for a while. I think she could be worthy of your vime. We've talked about the Transit of Venus and the Great Fire on this podcast and when you described it, a book that you find successful makes your brain fizz and also keeps you emotionally engaged. I thought, oh, the Transit of Venus. Oh, the Great Fire. Oh, I can see why the Shirley Hasbro book the Bay of Noon was a fit for you.

[Nell Cavallo]

Oh, good. Yeah, I definitely want to read more of her now. I was surprised that she had so few novels. Actually, I don't know why I know She's. She was born in Australia, but she lived all over the world, so really more a citizen of the world, I would say.

[Anne Bogle]

She was a fascinating lady.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes. So fascinating. And I immediately was like, what else can I read from her? And I was surprised that there wasn't actually that many, but maybe that's good for my choice issues.

[Anne Bogle]

Well, how many have you read?

[Nell Cavallo]

One.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, great. You got. You got nothing but choices.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yeah, that's true.

[Anne Bogle]

And it's Shirley Hazard novel could stand up to rereading as well, so.

[Nell Cavallo]

Oh, I think so.

[Anne Bogle]

If you wanted to start again with the Bay of Noon, like, that doesn't sound that bad.

[Nell Cavallo]

No, definitely not.

[Anne Bogle]

What do you think about Sarah Winman?

[Nell Cavallo]

I have read one of her books, the one set in Italy, but I haven't read anything. I don't think I've read anything else by her.

[Anne Bogle]

It was indeed still life that I had in mind. I don't think A Tin man would be a bad pick for you at all. Okay, so this is the story of two men who, at the moment we meet them in the mid-90s. We know that they have history, they've been through some things together. They knew each other when they were young, but life has taken them in different directions and not necessarily the places they wanted to go. The story is melancholy. Oh, I should have told you. It starts in Oxford, though some scenes take place in London. So we move back and forth in time. It's not a linear story. And we meet these two men and we find out how they ended up where they are. One of them is still grieving the death of his wife five years ago. One of them is caring for a former lover, I think, back in London, and he's very ill. And I don't want to give any spoilers, but we find out that these two men who are involved in grieving one relationship and in caring for a lover in the present day have a history with each other and that one considers the other the love of his life. And so as the narrative shifts back and forth in time, we learn the secret history of what went on between them and how they ended up where they are now. So this book is very much about love and grief and friendship and loss. There's art woven in, as Sarah Winman also does. How does that sound to you?

[Nell Cavallo]

That sounds so good. I also love the English setting. I have spent a lot of time in London and England in general, and I love books set there. So that sounds great.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, I'm glad to hear it. Next, I'm thinking About a book that feels fresh, that might feel zingy. I wouldn't say it feels summery, but I think it could be really interesting to you and also keep you emotionally engaged. Have you read Whalefall by Elizabeth O'Connor?

[Nell Cavallo]

No, I don't know this book at all.

[Anne Bogle]

It's a debut. You wouldn't know O'Connor from previous work. It's a short little book. I listened to the audio and it was, I think, barely over three hours. Okay, slim. It's this really interesting little novel set In, I think, 1938, just on the cusp of World War II on this remote island in. Oh, pop quiz. I want to say it's in the British Isles, maybe it's Welsh, but this island is tiny. It's just three miles long. There's only 12 families who live there. The population is under 50. And our protagonist is this 18 year old young woman named Mammod. And she knows. Well, what she knows is this island is really small. And she's grown up her whole life watching not very many people, because there aren't very many people. But she's watched people come of age and leave. The women do it by getting married, the men get jobs or go off to school, and she wants a way out. So we meet this young woman who's coming of age on this island and she's feeling claustrophobic. So that's an interesting little backdrop into this mix. Two things happen. First, a whale washes up on the shore and the people aren't quite sure what to do. It's this brooding presence that happens early enough in the novel that it practically affects the people on the island, but also emotionally permeates the atmosphere of the novel. But also, these two anthropologists come to the island and they. I'm not gonna say they're up to no good, but they are definitely up to their own purposes and they cause some relationship complications on a small level and then on a community level in the island. And also we get to see Mammont, see her community through the lens of the anthropologists. And it's clear to her, like, hang on, they have a story they want to tell, but it's not actually the truth of the life I know on this island. So we have this young woman coming of age, figuring out who she is, who she wants to be, where she is and where she wants to be in the world. And you know what I didn't tell you? Another layer in this story of complicated relationships, among other things, is we know her mother's missing from the Very beginning, but we don't know why. And that also kind of hangs over this story. So I feel like I've parcel without a bunch of plot threads. But this is a very compact book that feels very sure of what it wants to be. And I think you're really going to like the prose. How's this sounding to you?

[Nell Cavallo]

That sounds great as well. And again, I think that British isle feel would have a very strong sense of place. I imagine there's such. It's such a distinct vibe there. So, yeah, that sounds great. And I like that it's got a little bit of mystery without, you know, that being the whole plot of the book. But it's there. So it kind of keeps you reading and turning the pages. That sounds great. And it's short. I love that. I love to read a book in a day. This is. Yes, I love that.

[Anne Bogle]

If you don't like to read in brief snippets, maybe you could read this in one long one.

[Nell Cavallo]

Exactly. Yes. That is honestly something that is one of my favorite things to do in the summer especially. You obviously have the time. But yeah, I can literally sit on my couch and read the whole afternoon. Oh, what a treat. I love it.

[Anne Bogle]

Oh, I love the description of a book in a sitting as a treat.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

That makes me want to pour a cup of something, maybe use something cold me something hot and go do exactly that.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. Nell, this year you've read the Booker long list. I'm wondering if you did last year because I'd really like to tell you about the House of Doors.

[Nell Cavallo]

Oh, I did read that last year.

[Anne Bogle]

Was it a good fit for you?

[Nell Cavallo]

Yeah, it was great. Yes. Yes. I've read nothing else by that author. I know nothing about him. I think his other work is meant to be great too, but I haven't read it.

[Anne Bogle]

I have not read anything else by him either. I've heard good things about the Garden of Eden ing Mists, but I have no personal experience. Oh, right. Am I allowed to recommend an Australian book to you from my home in Kentucky?

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, please.

[Anne Bogle]

Have you read Meg Mason's debut, you Be Mother?

[Nell Cavallo]

I don't think I've read you Be Mother. I read Sorrow and Bliss because that.

[Anne Bogle]

Was a big book.

[Nell Cavallo]

That was a big book. I loved it.

[Anne Bogle]

Obviously, that was one that everybody was talking about. Did you enjoy talking about that with your fellow readers?

[Nell Cavallo]

I sure did. Yes. Yes. No, that was really good. Yes. No. Okay, let's talk about that.

[Anne Bogle]

So this is her first novel. It's called you'd be Mother. And the title actually comes from pouring tea, not actually from familial relationships, which is interesting. I thought that was kind of fun when it's explained in the text. But this is another story about an intense relationship, but it's not a romantic one. This is about a life giving friendship between two women of different generations in this book. Oh, gosh. It hasn't been that long since I read it. But let me think. What happens? So Abby is in the uk, she's a student, and she meets and falls in love with this young man, I think his name is Stu. When he spends one semester in the UK away from his Australian home to study. Then he finishes his semester, he goes back home, and life goes on until Abby finds out she's pregnant. And what we learn about Abby is she's had a really sad childhood. Her dad and a sibling of hers died many years ago when she was young and her mother was never able to cope and has effectively, emotionally and almost physically checked out of her life. Abby mothers her more than the other way around. Abby's, I believe, still a teenager in this book. She's 18 or 19 years old. She needs her mom, but instead she's playing mom to her mother. Oh, this is interesting. I'm just thinking about the title in a new light. I don't know if there's anything there or not. Okay, I'm gonna have to think about that. But she meets two. She's never had a boyfriend before. She falls in love, she doesn't understand protection. She gets pregnant and then he goes back to Australia. And she's like, well, I don't know. He's. He has a whole life there. I don't have much of a life here. I'm not really excited about my studies. I don't want to do the thing I'm getting a degree for. I can go to Sydney. It'll be fine. And so that's what she does. And Stu's like, okay, cool, whatever. I can go with the flow. Sure, come to Australia. We'll have a baby. It'll be great. So she does come to Australia with a baby who is very young at the time she leaves. And poor Abby. Abby has more going on than any young woman should have to handle alone in her life. Because Stu, like, he's. He's there, but like, he's not the help you would want for this fictional character when you see the circumstances she's in. So Abby's in Sydney, Stu's no help. Stu's dad is like kind of a nice guy. He's sympathetic to Abby, but his mom is kind of the worst. Makes Abby feel even more alone. Stu's mom is very into of the baby, though not into Abby at all. But Abby becomes accidental friends with a woman a little older than her mother who lives nearby. And I don't remember how they meet, but from the beginning, like each season, the other something that they need. Phil, just her four children. Don't let her mother them the way she wants to in the way that she thinks they need to be mothered. And here's Abby, who very clearly needs a lot of mothering and is very happy to receive it. And from Abby's perspective, she doesn't have any help, she doesn't have any support, she doesn't have anyone to talk to. And she's lonely. And also, she has a baby and she's never raised a baby before. And she doesn't have peers, she doesn't have friends, she doesn't have a job, she doesn't know what to do. But in steps her neighbor who says, oh, sweetie, let me help. This friendship fills the gap for both of them and they develop a really important, really powerful bond. Previously they've been so lonely, and now they have each other. But Phil does have children and they're getting into trouble. And they are not so sure how they feel about their mother's relationship with this young stranger who came from someone else and just had like, what? What? This is weird. They don't understand this friendship doesn't make any sense to them. And they are skeptical and think Abby's probably up to no good. And Stu, for his part, thinks, you got me, babe. Why do you need the stranger? Like, what's going on? So both women, in their own lives independently, are about to be put through the wringer. And their relationship is tested as well. And it doesn't come out so great for a while. But this is a story with a happy ending where everyone ends an okay place. There is a real bad relationship in here, but it is a subplot. I just want you to know since you said an anti romance was not your vibe.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes. That sounds amazing. I love that it's set in Sydney. What a bonus. I feel like it's very rare to have books set in Sydney. Weirdly. I'm not saying there's none that exist. Obviously there are. But there's a big literary scene in Melbourne, so I feel like a lot of Australian literature writers and books are kind of coming from a Melbourne perspective. So it's always delightful when Sydney makes an appearance so good.

[Anne Bogle]

Well, I'm glad from halfway around the world in the US I could deliver up a what to me was a completely novel Sidney book. You'll be reading it in a whole new way and I'd love to hear if you found Sidney depicted like the Sidney you know.

[Nell Cavallo]

Yes, definitely. I'm excited.

[Anne Bogle]

Now, of the books we talked about today, they were Tin man by Sarah Winman, Whalefall by Elizabeth O'Connor, and you be Mother by Meg Mason. Of those titles, what do you think you may pick up next?

[Nell Cavallo]

I think I'm gonna go the Meg Mason because I am excited to read something set in this city that I love. That's really cool.

[Anne Bogle]

I'm so glad to hear it. I can't wait to hear what you think. Nell, this has been a pleasure. Thanks so much for talking books with me today.

[Nell Cavallo]

Well, thank you so much for having me. I've loved it. Really, really appreciate it. Thanks, Anne.

[Anne Bogle]

Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nell today, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Nell on Instagram @nelreadsbooks and find the full list of titles we talked about today at what Should I Read Next? Podcast. We hang out on Instagram at what Should I Read Next? Where you'll find updates for each week's new episode and other readerly inspirations. Sign up for our email list so you're always in the Know what's happening on the show and at what Should I read next HQ. Do that at whatshould I read next? Podcast.com newsletter. Following us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts is one of the the simplest and really concrete ways to help support our show and other shows you love. Your downloads follows and subscriptions on these platforms really make a difference. These statistics help our show get discovered by new listeners and help make sure in that way that our team gets paid. We really value that around here. If you're not just subscribed or following on your favorite podcast platform, it's a quick step that really does make a difference. Thanks to the people who make the show happen Happen. What Should I Read Next? Is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wilkachewski and Studio D Podcast Production readers. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening and as Reiner Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading everyone.