Ginger Horton (6:55)

Well, we were just getting started, so we were just saying that we were a bunch of nerds who love to hear how the books we love to read get written. And we're so looking forward to hearing everything about this experience and your perspective on Bell. So even if you covered it in the author's note, which friends, if you have not read that yet, dig in. Do not miss it. We just. We are really excited to hear more today. Shannon, do you want to. Do you want to start us off?

Shannon Malone (7:25)

Yeah, I was not aware of Bill Greene until you wrote this book And I have such a personal affinity to go into it. I've talked. I've talked about it with the MMD community. I won't go into it, particularly here, because we don't want to. We want to hear from you guys. But I went down the rabbit hole once I found out, and I wanted to know, what was that like with both of you? Marie, when did you first hear about Bella? And like Ann said, we know you included some of it, but more is good. More is good.

Marie Benedict (8:03)

So, I mean, how far back into my past we have to go? And also how I have to date myself. But I first. So I was a commercial litigator in New York City for over a decade before I started writing books. And I was not really meant to be a lawyer. Right. This is what I was meant to be doing. And so I would sneak out during my law days and visit the cultural institutions in New York City. And that is where I first came across Belle da Costa Green. Right. And that's what you asked about. Right.

Victoria Christopher Murray (8:41)

Bell.

Marie Benedict (8:41)

Sorry. Okay. Yeah. And at that time, the Morgan Library, where I used to love to kind of scamper off and envision a different world, at that time, the Morgan Library, which, as Victoria can tell you and as we're going to see again in a couple of weeks, is one of the most exquisite places, really, libraries in the world. At that time, there really wasn't a lot of mention or reference to Bell, but I happened to come across one of the docents finishing up a tour when I came on one day. And she mentioned that this incredible institution, which was not just stunning, it's also one of the world's best collections of rare and priceless books and manuscripts, was not just created by the famous financier J.P. morgan, it was also created by a woman. And she mentioned Bell for the first time. And I just became enamored with this idea of her that, you know, here we are talking early 1900s, Gilded Age, and there's a woman in charge of this magnificent, powerful collection who goes on to become one of the most powerful people in general in the art world. And. And I kind of had her in my mind for a long time. And as the years went on, I kind of researched her more. And during that time period, her true identity became known. It wasn't known when I first learned of her identity as a black woman passing as white, daughter of incredible advocate, you know, first graduate, black graduate of Harvard, advocate for equality, Richard Greener. She had to hide all of this incredible heritage upbringing in order to pass as a white woman and succeed in this role. And I knew then that, oh, my goodness, like, not only was her story remarkable, it was absolutely necessary that people know it and that I needed an incredible partner to tell it with me.

Shannon Malone (10:49)

So, Victoria, when did you first hear about Build a Custom?

Victoria Christopher Murray (10:53)

Well, yes. So Marie just told you how she needed a partner. So I received a. What was it, like, a three page synopsis from my agent. My agent did not say anything about Belle da Costaguin. My agent didn't say anything about anything except there's an author out there who may want to do a project with you. And so I first looked up the author because I didn't know Marie Benedict. And I saw that she wrote these wonderful novels about women who've been lost in the folds of history. And I said, well, what does it have to do with me? Because I'm a contemporary writer and this is historical. And so I was a little confused with that. And then I saw a picture of Marie, and I wondered if she had ever seen a picture of me. I was like, maybe she was looking for a different picture. Christopher Murray. And so then it still, though, took me a little bit of time to read the synopsis, because the first couple of paragraphs was about J.P. morgan and the finance, and I just wasn't interested in him. And I kept putting it aside, reading it and putting it aside, and my agent kept saying, have you read it? Have you read it? Have you read it? And I was like, I'm busy. And finally she said about three months later, she said, nobody is too busy to read three pages. And so I read the first page and I was like, I don't really care about J.P. morgan. He could just go away. Then the second page got more interesting. It was about Belda Costa Green, and, you know, who she was. So I said, well, that's interesting, but still not any connection. And it was almost like I always say that Marie hid the lead because it was at the very end where she said, and no one knew that Belda Costa Green was black until she passed away. I was like, we could have saved three months and three pages if we had just started there.

Marie Benedict (12:54)

Obviously not my best writing.

Victoria Christopher Murray (12:56)

Just saying, it's good writing. She just knows how to do a great buildup. And reading is fundamental. And I was not doing my fundamental part. And so I couldn't get to the telephone fast enough. And our agents connected us right away. I was away someplace at that time. I remember being in a hotel room talking to Marie, and I said, hello? She said, hello? That Was it? I mean, we were really. We connected immediately and over these years. Seriously, she's my sister. I mean, even up to last night, she was talking to me, texting to me, like a sister, you know, like midnight. Yeah. Like, get some stuff out of your head, girl. That kind of talk. That's the kind of talk we have.

Marie Benedict (13:48)

Oh, yeah. And I will say, that very first phone conversation we had, I had it in the car with a good friend of mine who very kindly agreed to come with me on some events, which, out of town, which, as Victoria can attest, are, like, not always, like, the most glamorous travel situations. And so we were in a car, driving from one place to the next, and Victoria and I had our very first call together. And when we hung up, my friend, who'd been, you know, very kindly chauffeuring around while I'm on this call, said, how long have you guys known each other? Like, since college. And I was like, no, that was our first actual conversation. We just, you know, clicked right from the start.

Victoria Christopher Murray (14:27)

Yeah, right from the start.

Shannon Malone (14:30)

Amazing. What was the research like then for. For both of you? I. You both went to the Morgan Library. We saw that on gma. You said you had gone several occasions. I'm so jealous. We have people in the Chad who've been like, did. Did you get to touch any of the treasures that Belle put her hands on? Like, serious?

Marie Benedict (14:55)

Yeah. I mean, well, I used to go there, as I said, like, I've been there many, many, many times. And so I was very familiar with the institution itself and certainly what they had collected even before I knew who Belle was. Right. The thing about Belle that's interesting and challenging and part of the whole story, really, is that on her, just like in the book, on her deathbed, she ordered. She burned all of her personal papers, and she asked everyone in her life to do the same, and everybody did. So the paper trail is very scant, with one notable exception. And if you've read the book, this will not surprise you, but Bernard Berenson chose to not follow Bell's wishes. No surprise.

Victoria Christopher Murray (15:45)

And.

Marie Benedict (15:45)

And he kept them all. Now, part of me wants to be angry at him because he was a cat in life and a cat in death. But the reality is, is that, thankfully, he didn't, because those letters are really the bulk of what we know about now, unfortunately, most of those letters until very recently were in. Bernard Berenson had left the villa in Florence where he lived most of the time to Harvard, and he left all the. All the. The things that were inside It. Including those manuscripts or those letters. Excuse me. And so that was. The only way you could actually see them was to actually go to Florence and. Or outside of Florence and examine them in person. You know, they're fragile. And I was. I did have a trip scheduled to go and see them, and Covid came, so that put an end to that. Victoria and I were very, very fortunate in that the woman who wrote the incredible biography of Belte Costa Green, Heidi Ardasoni, excerpted and referenced many, many of those letters in her book. And we were fortunate to have access to those. But that wasn't the extent of the research. You know, we had documentation from Richard T. Greener. A bunch of his letters had been found. There are biographies of him. There are. And. And there are. You know, there are certainly still professional letters that exist from Bell in the Morgan collection that we are able to see. But. But the personal things now, I will say, as part of the Morgan Library's centennial celebration, they are digitizing those letters so anybody will be able to see them, which I think will be such a fascinating exercise for people who enjoy the book, to see the way in which these two people spoke to each other.

Victoria Christopher Murray (17:35)

Yeah. And Belle wouldn't really want us reading these letters because she had asked them to be burned. And so I feel horrible about the fact that I'm going to read every single one.

Marie Benedict (17:47)

Pore over them in great detail.

Shannon Malone (17:49)

I made sure he didn't really know the change that essentially would come. So, you know that.

Victoria Christopher Murray (17:56)

Yeah, she didn't know. And, like. And I'm glad you said that, Shannon, because I think, you know, people ask, why did she burn the letters? And of course, we don't know why, but we can extrapolate from what we do know and just feel like one of the lines that Marie and I wrote in the book together was she didn't want to blacken the left legacy. She did not know the progress that would be made, and she was afraid. We believe in our view of her that it wouldn't be respected as much anymore if it was discovered that a black woman have put together that collection.

Shannon Malone (18:38)

Oh, go ahead, Ann.

Victoria Christopher Murray (18:40)

You.

Ginger Horton (18:40)

I'm asking Caroline's question because it's timely. You all talk about this in the book, I believe, but I'd love to hear you all tell it in your better narrative. Interesting personal description.

Anne Boeckle (18:53)

How was Belle's identity finally discovered?

Ginger Horton (18:55)

Her true identity, that is.

Victoria Christopher Murray (18:57)

Yeah. So there were two ways. So, Marie, you want to talk about the first way, and I'll talk about her dad.

Marie Benedict (19:01)

Yeah. So, you know, There was always speculation about her identity. You know, even during her lifetime there were rumors. There were, you know, if you sometimes, if you see there were lots of articles written about Bell and to your question earlier about what kind of research we did, there's lots of newspaper articles and magazine profiles. I mean, she was this exciting anomaly, right. And sometimes in those articles you'll see something like the exotic Beltesta Green. And you know, you know that they're saying without saying, like, well, what is that?

Victoria Christopher Murray (19:39)

Yeah, what is she.

Marie Benedict (19:40)

Certainly that, that was out there, but it wasn't confirmed until there had. There was a biography being undertaken on J.P. morgan. And certainly people knew about the close relationship between JP And Belle. And it was in the course of that research that in some census documents, you know, people going back into time and tracing Belle's family as kind of her name changed from green to greener and her description and the census changed from white to colored, that clear relationship was established. And of course the one thing that Bell could never, once she passed, started passing, let people know was that her father was Richard Greener because he was very well known known and he was a very well known black man. So that was something she couldn't allow.

Victoria Christopher Murray (20:34)

And then not too long afterwards, they discovered lots of rigid T. Greeners papers in a building that was going to be abandoned in Chicago. And so some of those papers have gone. I think there have been a little, some fights over those papers because it was a small entrepreneur who discovered them. So I have gone to the different schools, but when they were able to have that too and start bringing two and two together and.

Shannon Malone (21:07)

Well, about what time or year was this happening? You may have said it and it slipped past me, but what, what decade? Yeah, what decade?

Victoria Christopher Murray (21:16)

Thank you. I think with Richard it was in the 90s. Is that correct, Marie?

Shannon Malone (21:22)

Yeah.

Marie Benedict (21:23)

And I think, I think the biography was late 90s, early 2000s.

Victoria Christopher Murray (21:27)

Yeah, the biography didn't come out to 2007.

Marie Benedict (21:30)

2007. Okay. So, you know, those, you know, so the speculation had kind of been out there and there were some articles where it was questions raised, but that, that real confirmation didn't come until later, didn't come until, you know, after, you know, I first came across her.

Victoria Christopher Murray (21:48)

Yeah. And you know, and one, just one last thing, that's something that. And Marie and I haven't even had a chance to talk about this because it was a recent. On the Today show, they did something with Belle and you know, who she was. But when there was a lot of speculation about what Belle was, but I'm not convinced that there was speculation that she was black. I think they were saying she's Cuban, she has tropical roots. I'm not convinced because I think black and white were so separate. She certainly couldn't have been a black woman as educated and flamboyant. But what was she? And so there may have been some people wondering if she was black. I don't think so, especially with something we just saw in the Today show where one of JP Morgan's descendants was asked, and I think it was like his great, great grandson was asked, do you think you're. Do you think he knew? Do you think J.P. morgan knew? And this is one of his relatives saying, I would bet not.

Marie Benedict (22:54)

Right.

Victoria Christopher Murray (22:55)

Maybe.

Marie Benedict (22:57)

We had asked ourselves a million times. So it was fascinating for us to see the family answer it themselves.

Victoria Christopher Murray (23:05)

Yes, it was such a. And Marie, you and I haven't talked about it, and we guessed the way he did. So when I saw that, I, like, cheered.

Marie Benedict (23:14)

You know, our fictional guest was correct. Is a question out. We write fiction, you know, yes, it's inspired by real people, but it isn't, you know, we don't know what their real story is. We don't know how Belle felt about passing that. That isn't recorded anywhere that I've seen. You know, we don't know if JP knew. And. And all of those things, of course, are factors in the story we choose to tell. So, you know, sometimes we're making, you know, yes, we do a lot of research. Yes, we build the story based on the facts and logical extrapolations, but it's fiction. And so it's very rewarding sometimes when our fictional guesses turn out to be true.

Anne Boeckle (23:55)

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Shannon Malone (26:12)

I would like to know, and I know everyone here would like to know because as we said, we love nitty gritty details. We're nerdy. So how does it work? Co writing a book together? Victoria, I know you've done this before and this the Personal Librarian is the first co authored book that we've had in book club. So tell us everything.

Victoria Christopher Murray (26:37)

How does that, how does that work? Because when you read the Personal Librarian you're pretty. You're not sure it's written by two people, right? It sounds like one voice. And, and I think that's what I most we're most proud of with this, that it really is every word that we write, every book we write together and how we do this is like you said, I've done it before and Marie hadn't done it before but as soon as I spoke to her on the phone that first time I knew we were going to be able to do it. I didn't know if she knew because she hadn't done it, but I totally knew. Because you need a writing soulmate. You cannot have two people. You can't just choose any two people to write together. You really cannot, because you have to have someone that you totally, totally trust. And what I mean by that is sometimes you're going to say, eleanor can't talk to Mary that way. That was a true conversation for our next book. And then I say, yes, you can. I mean, you have to have those kinds of discussions, and you have to trust that you're not doing it for your own ego. You're doing it for the best book. And immediately, I knew that I could trust Marie. I knew I'd be able to trust her with. With my writing, with everything I needed to do with what I wanted to do. And so once you have that, then you just go in. Now, it's very interesting because Marie is really an attorney by trade, so she believes in, like, flowcharts and very specific, timely. She believes in deadlines. And I think that those are just suggestions. But we. Which she's helped bring me along, so. And I'm the other way. So we actually bring. We bring our strengths to each other. That's what we really do. And so we discuss, of course, the overall arc to the book and everything. And then with the personal librarian, we discussed. Discuss, like, five, six chapters at a time. And we would totally discuss it. Totally discuss everything. Like, the chapter was really written by the time the two of us talked it out. And then depending on the chapter, it was really bizarre. This is that soulmate thing again, because we would say, okay, I'll take this one. Marie would say, okay, I'll take that one. Never one time. There was not one time where we said, no, I want that one. It was, like, naturally fell into which ones we should write. And we wrote the first draft, and then we would switch.

Marie Benedict (29:21)

Okay.

Victoria Christopher Murray (29:22)

And then we would bring in our strengths. So, for example, it was my first time writing historical fiction. And, like, I would. I was a contemporary writer, so there were times when I wanted Belle to say things to JP Morgan like, what's up, dude? And that didn't quite work in early 20th century language. But Marie has this wonderful. We started calling it her magical historical brush. And she could just come in and just brush it. Or. One of my strengths is spending a little bit more time on certain situations. Because, again, Marie's an attorney, and she's like, just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts. And so in one of those scenes when it was. I think it was Bernard and Belle, for the first time together, Marie's description was a little bare. It was a little loyally, like, you know, they go into the room, they kiss, and then it's morning.

Marie Benedict (30:27)

Yeah.

Victoria Christopher Murray (30:27)

And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. We need to tell people what happened the first time. And so then I come in with my little sexual brush. And you know what's so interesting about that?

Marie Benedict (30:38)

I like that. That's new.

Victoria Christopher Murray (30:40)

That's new. And Marie is always so quick to let everybody know that I wrote that scene.

Marie Benedict (30:49)

Well, I'm not known for my sex scenes. Let's just put it that way.

Victoria Christopher Murray (30:54)

They're not.

Marie Benedict (30:55)

They're not really focal points in my.

Shannon Malone (30:59)

Now I'm curious to go read the rest of Victoria's books. What's in those?

Marie Benedict (31:05)

I have. She's got some.

Victoria Christopher Murray (31:08)

But we bring our strengths to each other. It is really amazing how Marie reached out to me. One of the greatest blessings of my life. And I'm not saying this because she's here. I say this all the time. That in adjustments, just fit. We were just the perfect fit.

Marie Benedict (31:29)

But, I mean, we had no idea that that was gonna happen. I mean, honestly, like, it could have gone. I mean, who knew, right? And how audacious of me. Like, Carrie. I'm like, oh, I. I read one of Victoria's books that I, like, stand your ground. I'm like, she's, you know, she's exploring some of the same issues I'm interested in, and she's exploring them from, you know, the. The perspective of the women. And, like.

Victoria Christopher Murray (31:54)

Like, let me send her a letter.

Marie Benedict (31:56)

Let me know anything about.

Victoria Christopher Murray (31:58)

Let me write her. It was perfect because we have become so close. Like, her mother is one of. I love her mother so much, and her mother will knock down. Her mother will knock down Marie to get to me.

Marie Benedict (32:12)

So that's not theoretical. She's a walker. So you know what? She's a weapon.

Ginger Horton (32:26)

I'm hoping this next question will elicit some more laughter and funny jokes are in chat. People are discussing how they just need a dating app for writers. I'm thinking of what you're all in search of would read mutually, and I'm getting a kick out of that internally. But Kat asks, how did you decide to write the book in first person, present tense? She knows that's somewhat rare, and yet something I hear authors say is, if you can do it, it puts the reader right in the story, which is how I felt when I was reading it. Victoria, take it away.

Victoria Christopher Murray (32:56)

Right there. It just puts you right there. And I don't think we ever discussed that, Marie. I think we both just started writing that way. Right.

Marie Benedict (33:04)

Well, I do all of my solo books first person, present tense. And I think we approached it, and I think you do a lot of your books that way.

Victoria Christopher Murray (33:15)

Well, I do a lot of my books. I was doing first person past, but the. So this was my first time writing first person present. But one of the gifts that God's given me is I can almost write any way. And so we just slipped into it. And I love it, especially for history, because I feel like that does put you right there.

Marie Benedict (33:42)

I honestly, I can't write any other way myself when I'm, you know, when I'm working on my own stuff. And it's for the exact reason that you just said it's that I. It's a very immediate, very present, very introspective as well, you know, so when you're in the scene, you're also experiencing it alongside. Alongside the character.

Anne Boeckle (34:07)

Right.

Marie Benedict (34:07)

It allows for me as a writer, it's almost like channeling. Right. And, yeah, I. I don't know that I could really write differently. I don't think I. I could. And. And still inhabit the character in the same way. So. And that. So when Victoria and I did our second book after this, First Ladies, we. We did two first person, both present 10, two different characters, and brought them along that way, which was, you know, a different writing experience, but equally wonderful.

Victoria Christopher Murray (34:37)

And, you know, I think you said something, Marie, that I think is so true. We channel these people, and I know some of the things I'm about to say might sound a little nutty, but we're nutty. You have to be a nut to write anyway. So, yeah, so. And so I remember when. When I first started speaking to Marie about this book, and Marie said that she kind of felt like Belle was in the corner all of these years with her arms crossed, tapping her foot, saying, when are you going to come to me? When are you going to come to me? When are you going to come to me? And so then Marie said that she felt like she had to find somebody to write this book with. And then I remembered. I can't remember the scene, but I remember where I was sitting in my office and I, like, felt Belle right there tapping our foot. And I said to Marie, belle came to me. Belle came to me. And I think because we channeled them, they're there in the present. I remember when we first started working on the First Ladies, and I had gone down to Bethune Cookman, and Marie did Something really interesting. Side note, very quickly, Shannon's grandfather became the president of Bethune Cookman right after Mary.

Marie Benedict (35:56)

No way.

Victoria Christopher Murray (35:57)

No way. No way.

Shannon Malone (35:59)

Yeah.

Marie Benedict (36:00)

That is so cool.

Victoria Christopher Murray (36:02)

No, I know, but that's.

Shannon Malone (36:05)

You probably walked past his burial site and there's a statue and everything.

Victoria Christopher Murray (36:12)

Yeah, I know. So that's a whole nother. We'll have to come back and talk about that book. We'll have to come back and talk about that.

Anne Boeckle (36:19)

Absolutely.

Marie Benedict (36:19)

Because you probably have so many amazing insights.

Victoria Christopher Murray (36:21)

I know I said, I wish we had met her while we were writing, but when I had gone down, I went down to Bethune Cookman, and when I came back, I can't remember what chapter I written. And as I said, we switch and give out chapters to each other. And Marie called me, and she said, I feel like you have channeled Mary completely. And so that's what we do. We do have to. And I think the first person present tense is really them speaking through us.

Marie Benedict (36:51)

Yeah, it. I mean, it just helps. It helps, and I'm glad that it resonates with the readers as well. As a writer, it certainly helps bring you there.

Shannon Malone (37:02)

So Siobhan wanted to know, what are your. Do you have any writing rituals that maybe you do separately or together?

Marie Benedict (37:12)

Can I just say that I think I am so. I love Victoria for so many myriad reasons, which I could list. But one of the things that's, I think, amazing about her and us together is that both of us can write anywhere. Anywhere, literally, anyway. I mean, we could be on a plan. We both love to write while traveling, on planes, in hotels. That's a favorite. But, you know, some, like. I think people have this idea that the writer sits at the desk and lights the candle and the muse descends, and then we just, you know. And of course, it's not like that.

Victoria Christopher Murray (37:48)

What's that?

Marie Benedict (37:48)

It's work, you know, it's a lot of work. And Victoria and I both, like, can drop into the character, drop into the story, the mindset, anywhere, wherever. I'm not saying it's easy, but on.

Victoria Christopher Murray (38:04)

Amtrak, on the beat.

Marie Benedict (38:05)

Oh, I love an Amtrak.

Victoria Christopher Murray (38:08)

Anywhere, anywhere.

Marie Benedict (38:09)

My children aren't present. Asking for is like, you know, it's like I've been transported to a different world.

Shannon Malone (38:16)

I can relate to that.

Victoria Christopher Murray (38:18)

And then we do, like. One of our favorite things to do is when we do get together, we don't. We're not able to get together very often to write, but to get together to. That's one of my favorite things, because Marie just laughs. And I'm with Her, no matter how it is. Like, I can make her just laugh and laugh and it's like the best of times. But we do serious work too. We're not just. We do. So I do love when we can get together and speak about it. And also not a ritual, but sometimes when we have a tough scene. I do enjoy some of those moments really well, a lot too, because I learned. People always say that Marie always is so generous, telling people she's learned so much from me racially. She's being very. Because I've learned just as much from her. And I think it's important for people to know that. And so whenever anything happens to me racially at all, it has nothing to do with the book. Like, she's my go to person person. Like she's the person I call and I'm. If I'm in Canada and somebody's done a slight. I call her in Pittsburgh. Now I'm in Canada. Doesn't matter. She's in Pittsburgh and she can get to me.

Marie Benedict (39:36)

If she leaves, I will. If need be, I will be there. Look out.

Victoria Christopher Murray (39:41)

So I'm gonna.

Shannon Malone (39:43)

I'm gonna switch gears a little bit because we've been discussing passing by Nella Larson. We watched the screen adaptation with Tessa Thompson. Love her. But in an article, Brit Bennett discusses what she calls the tension within passing stories between the idea of destabilizing race but then also reaffirming race at the same time. And I sense that tension in Belle's story. And you've placed. I feel like you've placed in Belle herself. Ann had a question about. And you want to go ahead and ask your question? Yeah, you go ahead.

Anne Boeckle (40:22)

What.

Ginger Horton (40:23)

What's my question about?

Victoria Christopher Murray (40:25)

Maybe.

Ginger Horton (40:26)

Maybe this will dovetail in. What I'm really wondering is as Belle is standing, you know, in the corner with her arms crossed, tapping her foot, saying, come on, come on, my turn. What does she most want to be on that page? What are the stories, the ideas? What does she want shared about her life and her experience?

Marie Benedict (40:47)

Great question.

Victoria Christopher Murray (40:48)

And yeah, this is a good question, I think. I hope we covered it because that's what we were seeking to do was even though we were telling the story through our eyes, it's still her story. You know, we want to be true to her. And always with any book we write. And I know I'm speaking, I can speak from Marie here, we want to be true to the people. So if they came back and read this, they'd be pleased even if we.

Marie Benedict (41:15)

Didn'T get it right.

Victoria Christopher Murray (41:16)

Yeah.

Marie Benedict (41:18)

That it Honors them.

Victoria Christopher Murray (41:20)

It honors them. And I think she would want to know that she did the best that she could with what she had. And I think when it comes to passing and Marie and I had different goals, I mean, it's the same goal, but the biggest goal for me writing this book was to change black people's views about passing. That was my biggest goal. Because Shannon, as you know, it's so negative. It is so looked down upon in the African American community. And we even had someone. I can't remember her name right now. Oh, my goodness. On NPR who interviewed us. And she's like. She had looked it in. She was like, this is another book on passing. And she did not want to read about passing because it's looked down upon. And she said by the time she finished this book, she had a different view. And I think that's what I Bell, would want people to know. She wasn't passing because she wanted to be white. She was following her mother's ideals so that she would be treated as equal.

Marie Benedict (42:28)

Right. And I wanted to make sure that people saw the tightrope. See, people saw the sacrifice. People saw what she had to give up when she gave up her real identity, when she led an inauthentic life. You know, she gave up becoming a mother, gave up having a real marriage, gave up, you know, her extended family. And just that the daily sacrifice of. Of wearing that mask and what that does to a person. Boy, I hope that if, you know, I don't know what if Belle wanted that on the page? But I hope if she read it, she was like, I think that's what she would.

Victoria Christopher Murray (43:12)

I think that's what I think, that if she was going to be discovered, I think she would want people to. She came from such a rich black heritage, a rich black legacy of a family she was proud of and could be proud of. There was no way she couldn't be proud of her father. It would be very difficult for me to believe that she just wants to leave all that behind because she wanted to be white. No, I can never believe that. And so I think she would want. I think she would want this. Like, we don't know. We don't have any way, but she would want. Look, if you're gonna find me out.

Marie Benedict (43:53)

Yeah.

Victoria Christopher Murray (43:54)

Then I want you to know this part. That this. And so that's why my objective and Marie's objective was the same, to show the sacrifice. Because a lot of people think, oh, you just pass. And it's just easy. But when the book opens, remember, they're just. They're sleeping. The brother's sleeping on the couch. They don't have very much money. Belle can't even take the dollar ride from New Jersey to New York very often. They just didn't have very much. So they weren't. They were sacrificing. Her mother was sacrificing just so her children would be safe. And one of the things that's so interesting about when we wrote this book is we were doing the editing when. When the world was exploding with race around us. George Floyd had just happened, and Marie and I talked to each other, forget about the book every day to make sure we were mentally safe and emotionally safe. And one of the things I kept saying to Marie is, this is what Genevieve. This is why she did it. She didn't want her children to end up on the wrong side of a cop's knee. And this is exactly why she did it.

Shannon Malone (45:10)

Absolutely.

Anne Boeckle (45:11)

Absolutely.

Shannon Malone (45:13)

I agree with that so much. And I also think that it allowed Belle, and this, I guess, is kind of like my personal affinity with Belle is allowed her to explore things that she had interest in and develop this life and this career that without passing, she never would have been able to do. And I, you know, that. That was fascinating to me.

Marie Benedict (45:40)

Yeah. I mean, it was so unusual for a woman to be in this. These circumstances. I mean, so often she was the only woman in the room. So often she was the only woman at an auction house or bidding for a piece of artwork or. And as a black woman, that would never, ever happened. Never. So, you know, she had a gift. And, you know, her only way of sharing that gift with the world, unfortunately, was to pass. And once that that leap was made, which, by the way, wasn't made by her, it was made by her mother. That decision was made by her mother. Then everything rested upon it. They had constructed lives on this lie. They had married white people. They had jobs in white communities. They lived in a white neighborhood. You know, if Belle was found out, if she fell off that tightrope, if she wasn't the only one she was taking down, she was taking down her whole extended family along with her. The pressure cooker of it all was just enormous.

Victoria Christopher Murray (46:49)

And we felt the pressure cooker as we were writing. You know, there were so many parts, and I don't. I. The timing, again, the timing of writing a book about race while racism is exploding around you. I think some. Sometimes the words on this page were. On the pages were deeper because of the emotions. Marie and I laugh a lot together, but we cried a lot together and you can't get off a three hour, you can't get off of a three hour phone call after crying with someone who you can trust to talk about anything about race and then go write your scenes and not have that emotion show up on the page and not have it be on the page. And we just wanted to really honor her and I would bet all the money I have, I don't have very much money but that we kind of got that part right. I think we got that part right.

Shannon Malone (47:55)

He definitely introduced a lot of people to her, to her story and I personally, personally am very grateful to learn about her because like I said, I have such an affinity for her and what she able to accomplish.

Anne Boeckle (48:11)

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Marie Benedict (49:28)

Wait, what?

Anne Boeckle (49:29)

That's right, ma'am. You have rooms 201 and 709. No, we cannot be five floors away from our kids.

Victoria Christopher Murray (49:35)

The doors have double locks.

Anne Boeckle (49:37)

They'll be fine. When you want connecting room confirmed before you arrive. It matters where you stay. Welcome to Hilton. I see your connecting rooms are already confirmed Hilton for this day.

Shannon Malone (49:49)

Do you guys have any Other collaboration in the works that you can tell us.

Marie Benedict (49:56)

I mean, we're allowed to say what it is, but of course we do.

Victoria Christopher Murray (50:00)

Marie will never get rid of me. This is it. This is.

Marie Benedict (50:04)

You made a story with, like, enough of these co written books. I'm like.

Victoria Christopher Murray (50:08)

I was. Y'all could say what you want. If we buy it just for each other, there's more coming. It'll be just for each other and her mom, because I love her.

Marie Benedict (50:17)

Number one fan on her walker.

Victoria Christopher Murray (50:21)

Are you. We can't tell you yet, but, oh, my gosh. We're deep in research. Yeah. I have a really good friend that I've done collaborations with before, and Rashonda has a really good ear and eye for books that are going to be big commercially. And she was trying to figure out a way and she's one of my best friends to like, eliminate Marie and I from life so she can take this story kind of like Yellow Face.

Marie Benedict (50:52)

Not let that happen.

Victoria Christopher Murray (50:53)

We will not let that happen. But yeah, we're very excited. Can't wait to be able to talk about it in the next few weeks, probably.

Marie Benedict (51:00)

Okay.

Shannon Malone (51:01)

And while you're working together, are you working on anything separately or is this all encompassing?

Victoria Christopher Murray (51:10)

I just finished my. Well, this is really good because we're on the same time track now. Okay. So we're writing. We write our solo historical fiction projects together, you know, at the same time, and then we come back together. So that's really good because I miss Marie so much when I'm writing by myself. So I just, I. I just finished my first solo historical fiction. Marie's in the process right now. It's about the Harlem Renaissance. And there was one woman, only one woman, who discovered everybody. Like she discovered Langston Hughes when he was 17, Countee Cullen when she. He was 16, everybody. There's not a Harlem Renaissance writer that didn't come through Jesse Redmond Fawcett, and we don't even know her name.

Marie Benedict (52:03)

She's amazing and the book's amazing.

Victoria Christopher Murray (52:06)

She has to say that because she's my.

Ginger Horton (52:08)

When might we be able to read that next?

Victoria Christopher Murray (52:12)

It'll be out next February.

Anne Boeckle (52:14)

Amazing.

Shannon Malone (52:15)

Do you have a title?

Victoria Christopher Murray (52:18)

Yeah. Okay, so we have a title now, I'm pretty sure. Okay. So I haven't even told Marie this. I was going to text her because it's coming to me this morning. Okay. We're going to call it Harlem Raspity. So let me ask everybody. Harlem Raspity, huh? Harlem Rhapsody. No, I was getting ready to say, what if I. We change it to Rap Rhapsody in Harlem.

Marie Benedict (52:50)

I have to think. I have to sit with that one for a while.

Shannon Malone (52:52)

Okay, I have to sit with that one.

Victoria Christopher Murray (52:56)

So do you like Harlem Rhapsody?

Marie Benedict (52:58)

Oh, I like Harlem Rhapsody, you know that. But you're not asking me, you're asking these ladies.

Victoria Christopher Murray (53:04)

So let me ask you ladies, do you like Harlem Rhapsody or do you like the Harlem News?

Shannon Malone (53:11)

I like Rhapsody.

Marie Benedict (53:13)

Oh, how about the Muse of Harlem?

Ginger Horton (53:18)

Well, see, we already know we're going to read it no matter what. They sound like different kinds of books.

Victoria Christopher Murray (53:26)

I'm looking in this thing we have equal numbers of Harlem Raspy and the Muse of Harlem. Equal number.

Ginger Horton (53:34)

Yeah, just roll the dice.

Victoria Christopher Murray (53:37)

So. So I guess I can't go wrong with it, right?

Ginger Horton (53:41)

I'm just real happy you said February 2025 and not, I don't know, maybe someday.

Victoria Christopher Murray (53:47)

Oh, no, no. This is. This is on its way. Yeah.

Shannon Malone (53:52)

And Marie, do you have anything?

Marie Benedict (53:55)

Oh, yeah.

Victoria Christopher Murray (53:56)

Okay.

Marie Benedict (53:56)

Many, many books coming out. I'll have another book coming out probably next January. I am still not allowed to discuss it. But suffice it to say it, like all of my books, which are mission driven, you know, it talks about a very real life historical woman and in this case, a group of women. And let's just put it this way, a real life mystery into which they're drawn.

Victoria Christopher Murray (54:21)

Okay.

Marie Benedict (54:22)

Exposes. It's. It's much more than that actually, but it exposes this. All these issues about historical women. And then I have my first. I. I'm doing a school. I can't even talk today. A middle school series about the women scientists that I've written about. And I've written about three women scientists. Maleva Marisch Einstein, who's Albert Einstein's first wife. Hedy Lamar, who was a scientist, and also Rosalind Franklin, who discovered DNA and then of course had Cricket Watson built her Nobel Prize. But that's another story. Anyway, it's a series for middle school readers about each of these. These women kind of brings us right down. So I've got a lot of plates spinning right now, but right now are back in action. So it's gonna be.

Victoria Christopher Murray (55:15)

Yeah, we're back in action. I saw someone. Stephanie. I didn't see her last name. She said the book should be called Harlem Rhapsody, the True Story of the Harlem Muse. Or something like that. That was like that.

Marie Benedict (55:29)

That's both.

Victoria Christopher Murray (55:31)

That part, I just saw it.

Marie Benedict (55:35)

I like that.

Ginger Horton (55:35)

We are happy to be your focus group anytime, genius.

Victoria Christopher Murray (55:40)

Genius, anytime.

Shannon Malone (55:43)

Okay, so our last question is going to be from Ginger, our community manager, who was on earlier Victoria. She wanted to know if you could make one priceless acquisition for your personal library, what would you seek out?

Victoria Christopher Murray (56:02)

Oh, that is a good question.

Marie Benedict (56:07)

I know you do.

Victoria Christopher Murray (56:11)

I don't know what I would want. You know what's so interesting? I know. I have an idea. I would want something that belonged to either Belle, Mary McLeod Bethune, or Eleanor.

Marie Benedict (56:24)

I would love. Or also three. Wouldn't that be all three?

Victoria Christopher Murray (56:27)

Something from all three.

Marie Benedict (56:30)

I love that.

Victoria Christopher Murray (56:32)

I. I know that.

Marie Benedict (56:34)

I love that.

Victoria Christopher Murray (56:35)

I know that. I don't know what it would be, but. Oh, my gosh. I'd love that.

Marie Benedict (56:39)

That would be very cool. I went totally rogue. I would go with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Victoria Christopher Murray (56:46)

Oh.

Marie Benedict (56:47)

Which actually, you know, have the earliest.

Victoria Christopher Murray (56:50)

Yeah.

Marie Benedict (56:52)

Versions of the Bible in them. I would.

Victoria Christopher Murray (56:54)

Yeah. And that would be. I mean, that would be. That would have been a good thing for me to say, too.

Ginger Horton (57:01)

I think Belle would Respect.

Marie Benedict (57:04)

And I am so sorry. I have to hop off.

Victoria Christopher Murray (57:07)

Yes.

Ginger Horton (57:10)

Thank you so much for hopping on.

Marie Benedict (57:11)

And early to the party, but thank you so much for having us. It's been a delight.

Victoria Christopher Murray (57:18)

Go, Marie. Bye. I'm so glad she got on because we weren't expecting to make it. And she's one of my favorite people in the world. You probably couldn't tell, but she's one of my. Oh, my gosh. Even when she's, like, yelling at me.

Ginger Horton (57:35)

Like she was last night, but in love, I'm sure.

Victoria Christopher Murray (57:40)

Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She got me out of my own head, so.

Anne Boeckle (57:43)

Yeah.

Ginger Horton (57:44)

Friends do that.

Victoria Christopher Murray (57:46)

Yeah.

Ginger Horton (57:47)

Victoria, are you reading anything good? I think Shannon said last question, but I couldn't resist.

Victoria Christopher Murray (57:52)

So I am. I'm reading a book that's not out yet, but I'm reading it for a blurb, to give a verb. And it's called the trial of Mrs. Ryland Rhinelander. And have you ever heard of that? The Rhinelander case. R H I N E L A N D E R and it was in 19, because it makes a little appearance in the book that I just finished, 1925, the Rhinelanders were as prominent as the Rockefellers and the Astors and then just very Vanderbilt. And the son married a colored woman, but he ended up suing her for an annulment, saying he didn't know she was colored. She said, you knew. You saw me naked. And it turned into, like, the trial of. That was the biggest scandal. But the worst part of it was they brought her into court and in front of a white male jury, they made her strip to the waist there. Yeah. And then she actually won the case. Because when they saw her naked, they were like, oh, he knew. It's a real case. It's a real horrible situation. They made her and you. And still looks. Son.

Shannon Malone (59:30)

Have you read.

Ginger Horton (59:31)

I don't have any words for that.

Shannon Malone (59:32)

More than once. Like, not in court. But they would strip women.

Victoria Christopher Murray (59:37)

I had never heard that.

Shannon Malone (59:39)

Okay.

Victoria Christopher Murray (59:40)

Because I have.

Shannon Malone (59:40)

I don't know if they were referring to this particular case, but I had heard that women who were passing would sometimes be subjugated to a strip search to verify that.

Victoria Christopher Murray (59:51)

Yeah. And this wasn't even a strip search. This was. We. This was evidence.

Shannon Malone (59:55)

Right.

Victoria Christopher Murray (59:56)

And she had to strip from the. To her waist.

Shannon Malone (60:00)

Yeah.

Victoria Christopher Murray (60:01)

And stand, I think this front. Stand in front of a jury of men.

Shannon Malone (60:09)

Yeah.

Victoria Christopher Murray (60:10)

And just be reduced to that. She won the case. Which is so bizarre. I mean, the whole thing is bizarre. But it was a real. So I'm reading that. The historical fiction of that right now. So I know what that part's coming up. And it's kind of tough as a. Just as a woman. As a woman. And forget. I don't care about black, white. I don't. As a woman that you felt that. You know, But I don't want to get political, but we're losing rights today, so what the heck, you know, why am I surprised at something in 1925?

Shannon Malone (60:50)

Yeah.

Victoria Christopher Murray (60:51)

So that's what we are. That's what I'm reading right now. Okay.

Ginger Horton (60:55)

We'll include that in all the books we talked about in our replay notes. Don't you all worry.

Shannon Malone (61:02)

Well, it was such an honor to have you.

Victoria Christopher Murray (61:06)

This was one of my favorites. We do, you know, we do a lot of these. This is one of my favorites. So I'm going to demand that I be asked back. I demand it right now.

Anne Boeckle (61:22)

She demanded.

Ginger Horton (61:22)

I guess we have to.

Marie Benedict (61:23)

Guys.

Victoria Christopher Murray (61:27)

My favorite talks. My goodness. And I don't know if it was because we've never done one with two moderators. And then. So it really did feel like we were just all chatting, you know, coffee time.

Ginger Horton (61:42)

Oh, thank you so much for joining us. This is a pleasure.

Shannon Malone (61:45)

Thank you so much.

Ginger Horton (61:45)

We're so glad we got to meet you on Zoom.

Victoria Christopher Murray (61:47)

Yes. And thank you, everyone, for coming. So many people came in the middle of the day, so I really appreciate that. Thank you.

Ginger Horton (61:55)

And if you're going to watch this later, we're thinking of you.

Victoria Christopher Murray (61:57)

Okay. Thank you.

Anne Boeckle (61:58)

Thank you so much, Victoria.

Victoria Christopher Murray (61:59)

Thank you.

Anne Boeckle (62:05)

Hey, readers, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Marie and Victoria, brought to you by Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. Find Marie and Victoria at their websites. We have all those links, the full list of titles we talked about today, and details on MMD Book Club at our Show Notes page. That's at what Should I read next podcast.com today I want you to know that we have a modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club Instagram account run by our Community manager, Ginger. You can check that out at MMD for Modern Mrs. Darcy MMD Book Club. Make sure you're keeping up with what Should I Read Next by following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcast. It's been a wild start to the year when it comes to social media, so consider this a reminder that subscribing to our email list is the most reliable way to make sure you're hearing from our team, regardless of what the algorithm wants to show you. We will send you updates, announcements and more free and support straight to your inbox. Sign up at what Should I read next podcast.com newsletter so you are sure to stay in touch. And if you'd love more author conversations and bookish goodness like today's event in your reading life, we would love to have you join us in modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. In addition to these author talks, we have classes, community, lots of conversation, and a full buffet of bookish opportunities. Choose what you want to enjoy. Find out more at Members thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? Is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wokachevsky and Studio D Podcast Productions readers. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening and as Reiner Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading everyone.