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- [00:00]
Evan Carlson
I see myself as a reader who is devout and has a practice and who powers through and who doesn't just reread the first 100 pages of War and Peace five times instead of getting through the whole thing.
- [00:15]
Anne Bogle
That's a very specific example.
- [00:17]
Evan Carlson
It's a specific and true example.
- [00:22]
Anne Bogle
Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogle, and this is what should I read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest. Readers, Our new summer merch is here and we've already found new favorites to add to our bookish collections. Whether or not you ordered the Summer Reading guide, you are sure to love our new bookish road Trip inspired merch. Like our bumper stickers and indie bookstore concert tour tea. Personally, I'm loving our new well read hats, which I will be wearing all summer long. I've already found it to be a great conversation starter. This year, for the first time, we're also offering a professionally printed magazine version of the Summer Reading Guide, which you can add to your a la carte order or buy on its own. Check out our new stickers, tees, hats and more, along with favorites from last year's Bookcamp theme and past year summer reading guides@modernmrsdarcy.com shop that's modernmrsdarcy.com shop shop readers, it's officially summer reading season and in addition to your to be read list, I bet you have other goals on your summer calendar. Get ready for anything on that list with bombas. Bombas make socks that keep up with whatever your summer looks like, whether you're running to the library, running a marathon, or just running across town. And if you love your Bomba socks as much as we do, I've got good news for you. They make more than socks. From fresh white tees to waterproof slides for the beach or the backyard, your you'll find your summer essentials when you shop with Bombas. Our international listeners can celebrate this summer too. You can order Bombas abroad. That's right along with the US they now ship internationally to over 200 countries. In our house, we love our Bombas for just about anything. We all swear by their athletic socks, which wick sweat, keep your feet cool and fight blisters. These socks go from the running trail to the golf course and back again, so no matter your chosen activity, they are sure to keep up. Head over to bombas.com readnext and use code readnext for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-S.com readnext code readnext at checkout bombas.com readnext and Use Code readnext readers around here, we like to devote a chunk of our summer budget to buying books. That means we're always looking for ways to trim our other expenses, like our wireless bill. If a bookstore haul or a beach trip are on your summer agenda, you might want to check out the incredible deals from Mint Mobile. With plans starting at 15 bucks a month, Mint Mobile gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network. No need to compromise on speed or coverage. You'll be chilling the summer with a nice price for your premium wireless service. With Mint Mobile, you'll say goodbye to jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages. Instead, enjoy the high speed data and unlimited talk and text you're accustomed to at only $15 a month. If I was in the market for a new mobile plan right now, I would take advantage of this deal from Mint Mobile. After all, more savings on wireless means more money for other stuff I care about, like books. This year, skip Breaking a Sweat and Breaking the Bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium Wireless plans@mintmobile.com ReadNext that's mintmobile.com ReadNext Upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to 15 bucks a month. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Today's guest is a devoted nonfiction reader, actor and poet from Chicago with a unique reading conundrum. Evan Carlson loves to read books that change the way he sees the world and subvert the way he thinks about something. And he's been able to find these works among the poetry and nonfiction he frequently reads. But in his guest submission, he told us that he often gets bored by the fiction he turns to. Can I help? Evan is confident there are fiction works out there that would actually excite and engage him, but he's not sure how to find them. I have so many questions for Evan and cannot wait to explore his dilemma today. Let's get to it. Evan, welcome to the show.
- [04:52]
Evan Carlson
Thank you for having me on. This is great.
- [04:55]
Anne Bogle
Oh my gosh. The pleasure is mine. I'm excited to talk books today, although as I was just telling you, I have no idea where this conversation is going to lead us, but I'm excited to find out. Evan, tell us about yourself. We want to give the reader a glimpse of who you are, where you are in the world.
- [05:13]
Evan Carlson
I'm from North Carolina, Durham, North Carolina. And I just graduated last May from Illinois Wesleyan University with a degree in acting. And so I moved up here to Chicago to pursue acting and writing and all sorts of things, while also having a day job. So right now I'm in the the process of a lot of things that's.
- [05:33]
Anne Bogle
Relatable to a lot of readers. Can you say a little more?
- [05:36]
Evan Carlson
I want to be an actor, and I am an actor, and I write poetry and screenplays and all these things, or I write them when I actually make time for it. Same with reading.
- [05:51]
Anne Bogle
Relatable.
- [05:51]
Evan Carlson
I have this vision of myself as a person who writes and reads every day for lengthy times in the morning, but that never really happens the way it's supposed to. But, you know, I love the city of Chicago, and it's got its ups and downs, but there's so many great people here that want to support you in everything you do that it's sort of artistically fulfilling just to be alive here.
- [06:24]
Anne Bogle
I feel like you're standing in a long tradition when you say that.
- [06:30]
Evan Carlson
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's so much great history here of writers and actors and just people.
- [06:38]
Anne Bogle
I'm glad to hear it. Evan, you've given us hints, but tell us a little bit about your reading life. What role does that play in your life? Or what's your history with.
- [06:48]
Evan Carlson
Often comes in waves. And so I'll have. Like, about a month ago, I had a wave of reading where I thought the rest of my life was going to go like this, by the way, which it didn't. But I would. Anytime that I had any free time, I was just reading and reading and reading poetry and nonfiction, even fiction. Then one day I just picked up the book because I'd finished all the books that were in my wave. My new wave is a bunch of books that I don't really enjoy reading, so it's hard to push through them. And so I go through these two waves of a ton of reading and then nothing. And frankly, it's the same way with my writing. I'll have, like, a month of not putting a single word down, and then a weekend where I write way too much. But, yeah, I mean, I started out because my mom, who is an avid listener of this podcast, so I want to shout her out here.
- [07:52]
Anne Bogle
Aww, thanks, Mom. Hi, Mom.
- [07:53]
Evan Carlson
Yeah, she read to me Harry Potter, and that completely hooked me into everything reading. And so when Covid happened, I hadn't read a book since getting a phone in middle school, essentially. And I thought, you know what? I need to reset this. And I went back to Harry Potter, but because of the phone, I couldn't get through a paragraph without checking my phone or stopping it. And it took a long time to be able to read a book without being distracted. I still struggle with that today. But that's sort of my process that got me here, where I read maybe between 40 and 60 books a year, depending on the year now for the past four years at least.
- [08:43]
Anne Bogle
Okay. How do you feel about the reading life that comes in waves?
- [08:48]
Evan Carlson
You see, it's one of those things I think I mentioned that I see myself as a reader who is devout and has a practice and who powers through and who doesn't just reread the first 100 pages of War and Peace five times instead of getting through the whole thing.
- [09:09]
Anne Bogle
That's a very specific example.
- [09:11]
Evan Carlson
It's a specific and true example.
- [09:13]
Anne Bogle
Okay.
- [09:13]
Evan Carlson
So I see myself as the kind of person who could sit down and read War and Peace in a year, but in practice, it's very sporadic. And I still get a lot of reading done, but I struggle with it consistently being the thing I reach to, because when I finish a book that's really inspired me in some way, I find it difficult to get into the next one. Like when I reread Harry Potter, it made it harder to pick up another piece of fiction because I was missing that. If I read a book like, there's a memoir by Alan Arkin, who's a great actor. And I finished that, and after that, I couldn't really read much because I was missing that book. So that's sort of what part of the cause is. So I sort of don't like that my vision of myself as a reader doesn't match up with my. My real life practice.
- [10:11]
Anne Bogle
Interesting. Okay. Instead of asking you a bunch of questions to suss out what I'm curious about, I'll just ask you directly, do you feel like these waves are part of your natural rhythm that you can see and honor? Or is this not what you want in your reading life? In your life?
- [10:29]
Evan Carlson
I think it's not what I want because often the thing that I noticed that stops me from continuing, and I know a lot of folks struggle with this, is social media and my phone. I try things. Recently I deleted Instagram and everything from my phone, but then I find that I scroll on my laptop instead. And so it comes back and I'm like, why couldn't I be reading right now? Why couldn't I be reading right now? But then it just keeps you hooked. But then when I am reading a lot, I'm able to sink into it, but it has to be, for some reason, a book that just grips me at the beginning.
- [11:14]
Anne Bogle
Okay, that's interesting. What do you typically reach for? What are you looking for out of your books?
- [11:20]
Evan Carlson
I'll break it down into three parts because I've kind of got three categories for my reading, and I'm usually reading three books at once.
- [11:29]
Anne Bogle
I like a well thought out breakdown.
- [11:31]
Evan Carlson
And I found it's consistently been true, and it's kept me when I am reading. I usually read about three books at once because of these categories. One is a book of poetry. I love to have a book of poetry, usually contemporary poetry. Then I have some kind of nonfiction. Usually that's books about writing or books about theater and acting or books about that are memoirs or something. I count that as in the nonfiction bubble. And then the third is fiction. And this is the category that I maybe love the most, but that I have the most difficulties with. And I find that that is the one where I reach for things that I have read before and I know I love, but it's harder for me to reach for new things. Like in poetry, I'm always picking up a new poet, and I'm always reading new poetry and getting excited by it. And part of that is that poems are short. And so I can pretty easily know if I'm going to like a book of poetry by opening it up randomly and pulling something out. And nonfiction, I often read nonfiction that I already love. The thinker or the writer who wrote it, whether it's a great acting teacher or somebody that I admire. That's what usually is the starting point for me for nonfiction. But for fiction, it's been difficult. And it's usually a YA book right now, which I love ya, But I want to branch out into those other, many, many other types of fiction books.
- [13:15]
Anne Bogle
Okay, yeah. I noticed earlier you were describing what you read and you said even fiction.
- [13:20]
Evan Carlson
Even fiction. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [13:23]
Anne Bogle
Evan, you mentioned that you are constantly discovering new poets. That's easy for you.
- [13:29]
Evan Carlson
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:31]
Anne Bogle
How are you finding them?
- [13:33]
Evan Carlson
So one secret is that I just went to college and I took a poetry class. And my poetry professor, Mike Tuney, is just this incredible, incredible teacher. And he's got a similar gift that you have for recommending books and poets that work well, because before I went to college, I thought of myself as somebody who read poetry and wrote poetry, but I did not. I just wrote a poem in second grade or something and the label sticked onto me. But I found that it was boring or it was not enjoyable to read. And that's because I was only seeing the stuff that we were supposed to be reading. But Mike, he was able to say, but have you read this poet or this book? Or I think you'd like this because it's strange and interesting. And so slowly I got recommendations from him of poets like Austin Smith and Mark Jokic. And then once you find a poet, you realize they're going to tell you who their favorite poets are, usually in the back of the book or somewhere. Or they write a poem about their favorite poet and then you discover them. Or in the case of Mark Jokic, he's a poet who also created a poetry anthology. That's the opposite of what most anthologies are because it's filled with just excitement and new poems and poets. And so there's always going to be a million more poets than I could ever know. So it feels like my well is full with poetry options, you know?
- [15:17]
Anne Bogle
Mm. So those options, we get more options. And poems are short, so you can taste and see.
- [15:24]
Evan Carlson
Yeah.
- [15:24]
Anne Bogle
And then move on to more. Okay. I'm really excited to explore how you might move forward, although it sounds like I don't know enough about surfing or the ocean to really extend this metaphor. But. But when you are experiencing a wave in your reading life, it's really working. So you know what that feels like. And I'm hoping to find some ways that will let you extend that experience. Readers in our house, we are big believers in the power of therapy. But for so many people, finding affordable mental health care is a strug. That's where Rula comes in. Rula is a healthcare company that connects you with in network licensed therapists that accept most major insurance. Most users have a copay of just $15 per session. And with a network of 15,000 licensed providers across 100 plus specialties, Rula helps you get care tailored to your needs. And since sometimes mental health care just can't wait, with Rula you can see a therapist in as little as 24 hours. It's easy to get started with Rula. After you answer a few questions, you'll be matched with in network therapists. And if your care plan includes medication, no need to worry. Rula has a wide range of licensed professionals whose services include medication management. Join the thousands who have already turned to Rula for support on their journey to better mental health and well being. Getting started is easy. Just visit rula.com readnexttoday when you sign up. They'll ask how you heard about them. Please support our show by letting them know we sent you. It's a simple way to help us while you take the first step toward the care you deserve. Go to r-u l a.com readnextnow and connect with a licensed therapist who truly cares. Your mental health matters Readers if you'd like to make Father's Day extra special for your family, consider giving the gift of Stories. My kids always wish they knew more about their grandfathers. They're grateful for the memories they do have. But it would be so nice to have these great stories captured somewhere that we could revisit and enjoy them together. That's why Storyworth is so brilliant with Storyworth Memoirs. Each week your loved one is sent a thought provoking question via email. You choose the questions from Storyworth's extensive collection or write your own. If you have a specific bit of family history you would love to capture, your recipient responds right there in their inbox or has the option to record their answers over the phone for Storyworth to transcribe at the end of the year, Storyworth compiles all the stories and photos into a beautiful keepsake hardcover book, perfect to revisit on special anniversaries or anytime you'd like to take a look back at family history. Storyworth makes a great Father's Day gift for father figures of any age. Give the dads in your life a unique, heartfelt gift you'll all cherish for years. StoryWorth right now save $15 during their Father's Day sale. When you go to StoryWorth.comReadNext that's StoryWorth.comReadNext to save $15 on your order. Evan, you know how this show works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately and we will suss out the directions you can go in next. Are you ready to talk about your books?
- [18:29]
Evan Carlson
Absolutely.
- [18:30]
Anne Bogle
Okay, how did you choose these today?
- [18:32]
Evan Carlson
I went with these three categories and so I kind of wanted I wanted these to represent sort of larger patterns. These books that I chose are more like the door that opens into the room of all the books. Like it?
- [18:50]
Anne Bogle
Yes, we can work with that. Tell me about the first book you love.
- [18:56]
Evan Carlson
A Survivor's Guide by Mark Jokic. And it is not a normal nonfiction book. It's almost like having a conversation with a really smart, witty, incredible poet mentor, all these things, and it's just a great book. It inspired me to enjoy poetry more and not be bored by it and not think that I have to be bored by it. And so I love this book because it made it fun. And it even opens with talking about how you need to dispel the notion that poetry and reading poetry is going to dramatically change your life, because he says your life is already changing all the time. Poetry just says we need to stop and pay attention for a moment to it.
- [19:51]
Anne Bogle
Evan, what led you to that book?
- [19:54]
Evan Carlson
I actually got the opportunity to meet Mark Jokic because he came into my. He came into my poetry class three years ago, and he talked to us, and he's this great guy, and he went to the same university that I went to, and we sat in this circle, and I remember asking him a question about, how do you write about people that you know? And he said, oh, you should read my novel? And he threw his novel across the room at me so I could have it. And so that's just sort of the person he is. But his poems are just alive and strange and different than anything you've read. I mean, you sometimes think, are you allowed to say that in a poem when you read his stuff? And then I saw this past year, I saw that he had written this book about poetry, and I already loved his poems. And so I thought, well, I'll see what he has to say. And this book, it's almost written like a book of poetry because it's broken up in these thoughts and sayings almost. So it doesn't feel like just boring academic writing. It's very alive. And so that's how I discovered that one.
- [21:09]
Anne Bogle
So this falls into the first cat. Well, I don't know. Is this a book of poetry or a book about writing or a little of each?
- [21:16]
Evan Carlson
I would say that this is a book about writing. This is a nonfiction book, and it's the kind of nonfiction book that I especially love because it feels alive. It feels like I'm talking to somebody who has great ideas that I'd never considered before, and not in a way that feels academic and like it's pulling you down and making you feel bad about not knowing the words that are in it. But it still tackles these huge ideas about poetry. I mean, he gives an example of writer's block, which anybody who's a writer has experienced or at least said. We experienced. And he said, when we look at a blank page, all we have to do is close our eyes and look at the blank page that's always been there. And then we can be a little less afraid of the little piece of paper that we've got.
- [22:10]
Anne Bogle
Okay, I think that's really interesting that he says less afraid. Thank you for describing that. Evan, what's the second book you love?
- [22:17]
Evan Carlson
The Black Writers by Stephen Crane. And this is a book of poetry.
- [22:22]
Anne Bogle
Of all the poetry you've read, this is the one you chose to bring. Today is the second book you love. Why Stephen Crane?
- [22:29]
Evan Carlson
This is the one I chose for a lot of reasons. And it's interesting because most of the poetry I read is contemporary, was written in the last 50 years, but this was written in the 1800s. And it's by a guy who's most famous for, not his poetry, but for the Red Badge of Courage, which a lot of folks have read. But I've actually only read his poetry. So I'm sort of in a different sphere of knowing. Stephen Crane. But his poems, they're very short. They're unnamed, they're little worlds, they're strange. And when I first read them, I got given this book by Mike, my poetry teacher, and he said, I think you'll like this because it's strange and it's short and it doesn't ramble on. It doesn't feel academic. It doesn't feel like it's boring poetry. And I picked it up and I was shocked, and I thought it was written, like in the 1970s. And he said, no, this was written over a hundred years ago. And so that's why I picked it, because it's a book of poetry. That kind of changed my life about what poems could be, because they're not the expected way to write a poem. A lot of poetry I read has less accessibility to it. And I read it and I say, I'm not enjoying this. I don't understand this. So how could somebody who just picks up a book of poetry, who's never delved into poetry very much, understand this at all? Because I feel like I'm in the at least some of the top percent of poetry readers out here. And so if I'm not getting it, if I'm not enjoying it, but people are sort of applauding the academic qualities of something. I don't see how somebody who's just not just, but who is a reader who wants to get into poetry would enjoy that. But Stephen Crane shows you that poems don't have to be boring. They can be strange and exciting and be little worlds in five lines.
- [24:41]
Anne Bogle
Okay, I noticed that strange and short held big appeal for you.
- [24:46]
Evan Carlson
Yeah, well, because it forces me to look at it. And so it's the same with nonfiction. I don't really want to read something that confirms anything, I think. And so I don't really want to read poems that are just nice. I like a nice poem, but I like a nice poem that makes me turn back and say, what did I just read? Wait.
- [25:10]
Anne Bogle
Now I wish I could search everything I've ever read that drew out the reaction. What did I just read? Because I know I've written that exactly on modern Mrs. Darcy and in my reading journal. Okay, okay, I'm going to put that in my pipe. Evan, what's the final book you love?
- [25:28]
Evan Carlson
The final book here is Unwind by Neal Shusterman. I picked this because it represents sort of all the YA books I've read and loved. But this one specifically, I didn't read when I was in high school or middle school. I actually read this just a couple months ago. This is a book that I didn't go back to to read. It's a book that I discovered, and somebody recommended it to me because they said it tackles some big issues and makes you really think about things. And I picked it up, and it's ya. But it really challenged my thinking. It was exciting to read, and I love it because it opened a door that just a crack that was a little bit closed for me, which is new books that are fiction that I haven't read before. So that was a great book for me to read.
- [26:23]
Anne Bogle
I'd love to hear more about the fiction you read, I think you said was primarily ya.
- [26:29]
Evan Carlson
Yeah, primarily.
- [26:30]
Anne Bogle
Talk to me about that I'm interested in hearing. Is that what feels good to you right now? Is that most familiar? Is that where you want to stay?
- [26:38]
Evan Carlson
Well, it's most familiar in a lot of ways. I mean, Harry Potter was big. The Hunger Games. I just read the newest installment in that. I also loved the Chaos Walking series, the Knife of Never Letting Go, and all these great books. And right now I think I read it because it's very familiar and it's comforting. You know, I'm going through a lot of changes right now. I moved to a new city. I'm pursuing a career path that maybe can't be described as a path. And these books that I have read before that I know will bring this comfort to me are really easy to go back to. And so that, I think is Part of why I've stuck with these YA books that have really helped me throughout my life. But now I also want to branch out and read other things, because when I have read other books that are not ya, I've loved a lot of them. But for some reason, it's hard for me to break into it and to go into a journey that I don't know the end of.
- [27:56]
Anne Bogle
Okay, is now a good time to say how many theater majors we've had on our modern Mrs. Darcy? What should I read next team? Sure, y' all. I love a theater major. And by that, I don't just mean many of the favorite people in my life are theater majors, though that is also true. But you can think, organize, mobilize, communicate. Those are the skills. And I like. I'm very optimistic for your future. I know that you hope much of it will be on stage, or at least I imagine, but, yeah, you got a path.
- [28:27]
Evan Carlson
Well, thank you. And I agree with you. I think that acting is about every single thing in life. It's not about acting. It's about people. And reading lets you learn more about people. So I find that being a reader has drastically helped my acting because I get to experience more people's thoughts and ideas and lives.
- [28:52]
Anne Bogle
Evan, tell us about a book that was not right for you, and I'd love to hear why not to your taste. Was the timing wrong topic, Wasn't the right fit for right now?
- [29:02]
Evan Carlson
Yeah. So I put down the Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, and there's a couple caveats to this selection. The first big one is that I haven't actually read the whole thing.
- [29:14]
Anne Bogle
Okay, noted.
- [29:16]
Evan Carlson
And so I struggled with this question because, for better or worse, I don't push through. If I'm not enjoying a book, I don't force myself to finish it. And that lesson came from a theater maker named Peter Brook, who wrote a great book called the Empty Space, which in that book. And this is actually. This ties back, because now I remembered this is what made me start liking Shakespeare, was that he said, if you're at a production of Shakespeare, that bores you. It doesn't mean that you're not understanding it. It doesn't mean that it's good for you to continue watching it, because somehow watching Shakespeare is good for you, even if it's boring. He said, just leave, because it's not a good play, it's not a good production. And he says that the greatest tool a director has is their capacity for boredom, because you don't have to like something that you're bored with. And so now if I start being bored by something, I just put it down because I want to listen to that instinct that I have and really let it grow. But with the Handmaid's Tale, I think it also represents a category of books that I would say are the ones that I'm supposed to read. And with those, I find that they're the books that I kind of most want to read. Like the classic works of literature like War and Peace. I've got that on my shelf and I want to read it, but the wanting of it and the expectation surrounding it kind of kills it for me.
- [30:54]
Anne Bogle
Whether that's personality wise or time of life wise, that's important to know. Should is a real buzzkill.
- [31:02]
Evan Carlson
Oh, yeah, yeah. But that's what I tell myself so much in my reading life is I really should read this. I really should read that. You know, this is good because I'm becoming more self aware now. That's sort of what is shutting me down a little.
- [31:17]
Anne Bogle
I will just say this is not a suggestion. Definitely not a should. I finally read that book when I listened to Claire Danes perform it for me, which is very understated, her approach, that format exists. That's all I'm going to say about that. Evan, what have you been reading lately?
- [31:40]
Evan Carlson
Well, I'm in my. This is why I'm so excited to be on this podcast right now, because I am in the low tide right now with reading. If you go on my Goodreads, I'm technically reading about 15 books, but most of them I haven't picked up in a little while. So I'm kind of. I would say I'm not really reading anything right now to a big degree. I recently read a couple books that I really loved, one being the Dark Interval by John Dominic Crossan, and then another being Yaguerete White by Diego Baez, who's a great Chicago poet. But those, when I finished them, I sort of was met with nothing else.
- [32:26]
Anne Bogle
All right, we will see what we can do. Evan, what are you looking for in your reading life?
- [32:30]
Evan Carlson
Right now I'm looking to really enjoy fiction again and enjoy new fiction and be able to read it consistently and pick it up when I might be reaching for something like my phone. I'd rather be reaching for a great book of fiction, a great novel to take me into another world, to teach me things, to excite me, to do all these great things that reading has done for me over the years, but that I almost am scared to pick up A novel now, because I know that it probably isn't going to do that for me right now.
- [33:07]
Anne Bogle
Yeah. I've been a little surprised how much fear has come up in our conversation today. I'm wondering what you feel like you lose if you pick up a novel that ends up not being for you.
- [33:19]
Evan Carlson
Oh, that's interesting. What do I lose? I think time is one thing that I lose. And I've done the math on this before, which actually got me reading a lot more, was that I was acting like I didn't have the time to read. And then I would look at my screen time on my phone, and it was this unimaginable number of hours that made me realize I actually do have the time to read. I'm just feeling bad about reading and feeling like reading takes up my time, so. But not feeling bad about being on my phone. And so when I was reading, I would feel like, oh, I could be doing so many other things. I have laundry to do. I have monologues to learn. I have this and that. But when I was on my phone, I wasn't having those feelings. And so I think it's been a process of trying to take that away from my reading life. That idea that when I'm reading, I could be doing something else, but when I'm on my phone, that's my full attention and focus.
- [34:20]
Anne Bogle
Okay, that's so interesting. Like, I'm imagining. What if we could see the Instagram? We've scrolled as pages bound.
- [34:27]
Evan Carlson
Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:29]
Anne Bogle
Okay. I was really captured by what you said about Mark Yakich, how in Poetry A Survivor's Guide, he talked about being less afraid of the blank page.
- [34:38]
Evan Carlson
Yeah.
- [34:39]
Anne Bogle
Kind of thinking of your reading life during the fallow seasons. To mix my metaphors as being like, the blank page that you're filling. And I understand all kinds of reasons to feel some trepidation about feeling that. And also, I'm really excited about what you could discover. Feels, like, really exciting to you to read. Maybe. Maybe if you can connect with different kinds of works, and it sounds like creating a structure that works for you. Maybe structure is the wrong word, but I do see you, like, kind of circling around this idea of time online versus time with books.
- [35:18]
Evan Carlson
Yeah. Oh, definitely.
- [35:19]
Anne Bogle
Okay. I believe in you. Evan. One more question, and then we'll get into some books I think you may enjoy. I was really intrigued by what you said in your submission, and you've touched on it a little today, but you said the nonfiction you love changes the way you see the world, but you often get bored by the fiction you read. Is there anything else I should know about that before we try to pluck out some books that may be good for you?
- [35:44]
Evan Carlson
Yeah, I mean, a great example of fiction that changes the way I see things is I just read the Dark Interval by John Dominic Cross. And in that, he sort of makes the case that our whole lives are story. And that we see that all we have is story and words and all this stuff. And the stories that we tell ourselves can be subverted by other stories. Like he gives the example of one story that we tell in our lives is that in prison, you put bad people in prison and good people don't go to prison. But he says that a story that subverts that, sort of a parable of that would be Martin Luther King being put in jail. And then you notice that if the story of our lives is that good people go to jail, but this great person, Martin Luther King, is being put in jail. It shows that there's maybe a crack in that story that we've been telling ourselves. So that book really changed the way I thought about life in general and stories and the way that we approach them. So things that challenge me in that way, nonfiction, that almost feels like a page turner to me, that presents me with new ideas that. That force me to look at life differently is what I really love.
- [37:07]
Anne Bogle
All right. That is very helpful and really paints a picture of what you find really satisfying from a good book, no matter the genre. I'm also noticing. Well, I'm also wondering when it comes to poetry and your love of it that I imagine you really admire when an author makes the words fall in exactly the right order and really have an appreciation for the ability to do more with less ambiguity. The reader's responsibility as co creator and interpreter.
- [37:39]
Evan Carlson
Yeah, okay.
- [37:41]
Anne Bogle
All right. Now I'm just procrastinating because, you know, I don't like fiction, but recommend me some is kind of daunting. But I'm really thinking about how you like strange and short. You haven't used these words, but compact and concise seems to speak to you. You're looking for books that make you think differently about the world. And you love when stories are subverted. Is it fair that you love to be surprised?
- [38:08]
Evan Carlson
Yeah. I mean, that's one thing that my poetry professor, Mike Tuney, put into words for me because he wrote a book about the poetic turn called Structure and Surprise, which is just incredible because it says, the thing that is great about poetry is. Is when it turns and when it surprises us. So I love Surprise.
- [38:26]
Anne Bogle
All right, that's super helpful, Evan. Let's recap your books. You loved Poetry A Survivor's Guide by Mark Jokic the Black Writers by Stephen Crane and Unwind by Neal Shusterman the Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. Not for you. And lately you've been reading a book changing the way you think about so many things, especially stories. The Dark Interval by John Dominic Crossan and Diego Baez the Chicago Poet's Work YA Gorete White Readers, we all know that ads are often the price of admission for using Internet services these days. But it's frustrating when the ads aren't even close to relevant. Recently, I kept getting ads for cybersecurity marketing when look, readers, maybe we need that kind of thing in our business, but believe me when I say I am not the team member that handles that around here. If you're on the marketing end of those ads, you will feel this frustration too. That's why LinkedIn Ads is a great solution for B2B marketing. When you advertise with LinkedIn Ads, you're reaching their established network of over 1 billion professionals. And even better, you're not just sending your ad out into the void. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, and more. With LinkedIn ads, there's no need to dilute your marketing budget. You'll find all the professionals you're trying to reach in one place. LinkedIn will even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign, so you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com readnext that's LinkedIn.com readnext Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. Readers Life doesn't happen biweekly, so why should Payday? With Earn in, you'll be able to access your money as you earn it without waiting for your paycheck. Earn in is an app that gives you access to your pay as you work up to $150 a day, with a max of $750 between paydays. Just download the Earn in app and verify your paycheck, Then access up to $150 a day. When your next paycheck comes through, any money you've accessed is automatically repaid. We all run into unexpected expenses, and Earn in provides a reliable, flexible way to access the funds you need without charging a credit card or depleting your savings. There are no mandatory fees and no credit check. It's no surprise that over 4 million happy customers rely on Earn in for financial peace of mind. Download Earn in today spelled E, A, R, N, I N in the Google Play or Apple App Store. When you download the Earn in app, type in what should I read Next under Podcast when you sign up, it'll really help the show. What should I Read next under Podcast? Earn in is a financial technology company, not a bank. Cash outs are based on your available earnings. Standard Cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees. Option to expedite your transfer for a fee. Tips are voluntary and don't affect the service. See the Cash Out User agreement for details. Services not available in all states. I'm interested in starting with a book that did indeed make me finish it. And again me, not you. But I finished it and went, what did I just read? It's quite a reading experience packed into just 200, actually small format, 200 pages. And it's about acting and actors and the stage and performances. I'm thinking about. I'm just bearing my lead. I'm thinking about Audition by Katie Kitamura Is this one you've known or have seen around?
- [41:55]
Evan Carlson
I don't think I know this one, no.
- [41:56]
Anne Bogle
Okay, not sad about this. It just came out in April and readers if this sounds familiar, we talked about it in our spring book preview back in, oh gosh, January. This was such a page turner. And also I found it to be such an intellectual delight because you're pushed to not only dissect the story on the page, but also to think really hard about the interplay between artistry and life and how each influences the other and what is a performance and what is authentic. And is there any such thing as a divide between? I really liked the way the publisher described this. Wait. But first, let me tell you, this book is cut in half. You are presented with a story for the first half of the book and you're, you know, you're reading, you're reading, you're finding out everything you think you know. You're getting one perspective, and then at the halfway point, you shift and the story becomes something else. And when that happens, it's jarring and then engages you in a very different way as you figure out what to make of these two competing narratives. They go in very different directions, so the publisher says this begins when two people meet for lunch in a Manhattan restaurant. She's an elegant and accomplished actress in rehearsals for an upcoming premiere. He is attractive, troubling and young. Young enough to be her son. Who is he to her? And who is she to him? I think critics have called this a Mobius strip of A novel. This is absolutely not for readers who hate ambiguous endings and need to know what happened. Like there's a definitive answer. But, Evan, I think it might be interesting for you as they're both like they. They as Katie Kitamura, but the characters in the book also are shining a light on the masks we wear and how we perform for the audience, but also like the audience of one or two, like the people we love, our best friends. How does this sound to you?
- [43:57]
Evan Carlson
I'm very interested by this one. Yeah, that sounds really intriguing. And it sounds like it works the way I like books to work, which sometimes feels like it doesn't work, but in a good way. Thank you for that recommendation.
- [44:12]
Anne Bogle
Happy to do it. I don't want to recommend you poetry, but I'm curious about going poetry adjacent. Sure, you've probably read it, but we have to talk about Bluets by Maggie Nelson, in case you haven't.
- [44:27]
Evan Carlson
I have not, no.
- [44:28]
Anne Bogle
Okay. Do you know anything about this or her work?
- [44:30]
Evan Carlson
No, I actually don't.
- [44:31]
Anne Bogle
Okay. This is genre defying. It's almost structured like a poem, but it's not a poem exactly. Can we call them prose poems? But I haven't told you what them is. So this is difficult to categorize in any one genre, and I really like that for you. And it's also brought me great joy to see, like, the real genre benders appealing to readers more and more these days and to see authors create those works more and more. But Bluett's is 240 numbered prose poems in order 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, up to 240, that are written from the perspective of someone who is deeply in love, like completely obsessed with the color blue. And they are about love and loss and grief. And she borrows from all these sources like psychology and art and literature, music, philosophy, to write about these themes through the lens of the color blue, but also includes these just deeply personal witnessings about what she's lived and experienced. Although sometimes she makes some questions and not statements exactly. So it almost feels like a lisp poem, but it's something else entirely. How does this sound?
- [45:56]
Evan Carlson
That sounds really interesting. Yeah. And I love that it draws on lots of things outside of just the world of poetry or writing, but it pulls from psychology and all these other fields and ideas.
- [46:14]
Anne Bogle
I'm glad to hear that, Evan. For your third book, I feel like there's a lot of directions we could go. So there's some great YA novels that I think may hold appeal to you. I mean, you could easily Google novels by poets and see how those sound for you in your reading life right now. There's some writing really great nonfiction that explicitly asks big questions and offers competing answers to those questions that I think you may enjoy. Like, I'm thinking of Alan Lightman as an example, but I'm wondering about this new release out this summer called these Heathens. This might not be for you, but maybe it really, really is. So you talked about how stories can be subverted and use the example from one of your favorite books about Martin Luther King Jr. And about good people going to prison. It's making me think of this new novel by Maya Mackenzie. It's called these Heathens. And it's not a YA book, it's an adult novel. But the protagonist is 17 years old. Her name is Doris. She has grown up in small town Alabama, and she loved school and literature and learning, but she had to drop out because her mama needed her at home. And so she's been. She's been helping out at home, but before she did, she was the star student of Mrs. Lucas. So Doris finds herself pregnant and she persuades her favorite teacher to take her to Atlanta for an abortion. So what happens here is this small town pious girl who has been raised up at church, you know, every time the doors are open, told, you know, this is who Jesus loves. This is what God wants. This is how long your hem should be. And this is why she goes to spend the weekend mingling with her teachers, queer black friends, civil rights leaders. Like Martin Luther King Jr. Is in the pages of this book, his wife, Coretta Scott King. There are historical celebrities and singers in the pages of this book that Doris knows because she's seen them in Ebony and she finds their behavior utterly shocking. She's finding that her experience with the people she's always told are bad and wrong and terrible is subverting everything she's been told. And she's been told that people are cruel and unkind and have no love in them. And she's like, I don't know, Nobody's been nicer to me than Mrs. Lucas's friends or Coretta Scott King. So she is torn between thinking, my mama certainly wouldn't approve, but she can also see they have good hearts and common sense and seem to be looking out for her. So we see her over the course of this weekend telling us her story in the first person. And she has such a distinctive voice. I love the style of this novel and the words she used. And I mean, I felt like I was in Doris's head, but she's telling us everything she takes in over the weekend and what she thinks it means to her and how she's constantly having to rethink everything she thought she's ever known. And then at the very end of the book, we get like a nice little. There's no epilogue here. I know how some readers feel about those, but we get just a little reflection from a distance about what that weekend meant to her. Now, I don't know if this is going to be right for you, but what do you think?
- [49:36]
Evan Carlson
Yeah, I like the sound of it because it's somebody going through this journey of discovering that the story they've been told is maybe not the whole story, but it also has sort of a backdrop of politics and religion and all these things that I'm really interested by that. Usually when that kind of content is in something, I'm at least drawn to it in some way. So I like the prospect of this one.
- [50:02]
Anne Bogle
I'm glad to hear it. And I'm so curious what you think about these, Evan, of the books we talked about today. They are Audition by Katie Kitamura, Bluets by Maggie Nelson, and not out till June 17, so not too long to wait. But you can't go grab it today. These heathens by Mia McKenzie. Of those books, what do you think you may pick up next?
- [50:27]
Evan Carlson
They all really do interest me, so I do think I will pick up all of them. So I appreciate these terrific recommendations, but I think that Audition is the one that I'll pick up first.
- [50:40]
Anne Bogle
I am so curious to hear what you think because it's strange and the ambiguity is there. But what were you saying about accessibility and poetry and how you. What I heard was like, you're up for anything. Maybe. I'm curious how that may or may not carry over to fiction.
- [51:03]
Evan Carlson
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love that this is also a shorter book, and so it doesn't feel daunting in that way, which takes some of the fear out of it, and it sounds like that's part of what makes it accessible.
- [51:17]
Anne Bogle
Well, I'm so curious to hear what you think. Evan, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking books with me today.
- [51:22]
Evan Carlson
Yeah, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.
- [51:29]
Anne Bogle
Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Evan and I'd love to hear what you think he may enjoy reading next. Find Evan at his website, evincarlsonactor.com and find the full list of titles we talked about today at what Should I Read Next Podcast dot com. Keep up with all our happenings here at what Should I Read Next? HQ with our newsletter. We send this out on Tuesday morning so you're in the know about each week's new episode and get other news from our team. Sign up at what should I read? NextPodcast.com Newsletter Follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Casts, wherever you like to get your podcasts. It takes just a moment and really makes a big difference for our show. You'll also find us on Instagram at what Should I Read Next? Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? Is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wilkachevsky, and Studio D Pop Podcast Production Readers. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Reiner Maria Roka said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading everyone.