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- [00:00]
Holly Wilkiszewski
I've been told by a lot of people that that would be a great starting point for me with her writing. And when I say a lot of people, I mostly mean you. In the podcast.
- [00:09]
Anne Bogle
I didn't know we were having those conversations, but I'm happy to discover that hey readers, I'm Anne Bogle and this is what should I read next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. I'm so excited about the direction this week's conversation about books and reading is going to go because at long last I am going in depth on the reading life with one of our team members in a way that like we've done with everybody else but Holly and today is your day. It's gonna be great. Readers. If you love hearing from team members like you will today, you will love our Patreon community because we do that a lot more over there. This is a place where our team members regularly pop up for bonus episodes. Sometimes they do solo episodes like their chosen one Great Book Series episodes, or they're in conversation with each other doing things like a deep dive on the mystery and thriller genre like Just Happened. We also had bonus team best books coming up and a bonus team focused mid year check in that just Happened over there and when you join you can listen to all those episodes at any time. We've also started up a genre focused series that's the one I was just mentioning over on Patreon, where we take a closer look at popular genres and offer readers our starter guide to help them explore new to them areas of the bookstore or library. So far we've shared that Mystery Thriller starter guide plus one on the romance genre and there are more on the way. Our Patreon community is a fun way to get even more book talk in your life and when you join us as a monthly or annual supporter, you're also making a tangible contribution to our show and our ability to create new episodes each week. Y' all help us in such a practical, tangible way and we're so grateful. Thank you to everyone who's already signed up and if you'd like to know more to maybe sign up yourself, get all the details@patreon.com whatshouldIreadnext no matter where your summer is taking you this year, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. Fortunately, Mint Mobile makes it easy to enjoy both service and savings all summer long. With Mint Mobile, you'll enjoy the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. And you can keep your existing phone. It's simple to bring your number and all of your contacts with you for a limited time. Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. No surprise fees and no unexpected overages. Just three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. Next time I need to switch up my mobile plan, I'll definitely be checking out Mint Mobile and their new customer offers like this one this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com readnext that's mintmobile.com readnext upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to 15 bucks a month limited time new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gig on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Readers now that summer is in full swing, I'm looking to add a few high quality pieces to my closet that I'll wear all summer long. Bonus points if they'll also work with my fall wardrobe when the time comes. Quince excels at timeless, affordable basics that are great quality for the price. It's hot out now where I live. It's the perfect weather for their easy, breezy cotton basics, washable silk skirts and 100% European linen tops. Something else I love about these basics is they transition effortlessly to cooler temperatures when we finally get a break from the heat. Quince creates such great quality at affordable prices by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen. And they only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. I've been wearing my new Italian Crossback one piece swimsuit in cherry red all summer. I love the style of this suit and I also love the fact that it's made with recycled materials. Like all of Quince's pieces, it's also meant to last. The fabric is resistant to chlorine, sunscreen and oils. I tend to gravitate toward neutrals and I am loving the change of pace with the bright, bright cheerful red right now. Give your summer closet an upgrade with Quince. Go to quints.com readnext for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com readnext to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com readnext now for today readers. Today's guest has joined me in conversation on the podcast a few times. But Holly, you have never been in the spotlight like you will be today. And I'm so excited to be joined today by Holly Wokeczewski, who is our media production specialist. Those of you who know Holly's reading tastes, well, you're already extra excited that she's here today because, you know, she reads a lot of fantasy and sci fi genres that are often lumped together in literary conversations. So when Holly mentioned at a recent team meeting that she's shifting away from fantasy and more towards sci fi in her reading life lately, well, I got really curious and wanted to hear more. Today we're talking about Holly's evolving journey as a sci fi fantasy devotee, the trend she's seeing in today's books, and some of her very favorites in these genres. We'll also explore what appeals to Holly most about these types of books, as well as perhaps her non science fiction fantasy reading. And we'll recommend lots of titles that readers who resonate with Holly might also enjoy reading. I can't wait. Let's get to it. Holly, welcome to the show.
- [06:04]
Holly Wilkiszewski
It's such a pleasure to be here, Anne. Thank you.
- [06:06]
Anne Bogle
Oh my gosh. I've been looking forward to this for a long time and I'm so excited it's finally happening. Okay, Holly, you know how we roll around here. We often start by just inviting readers to give us a glimpse of who they are. We just want to know the various kinds of people that we share this love of reading with. And you know what, what they do when they're not talking books where they are in the world. Would you give us a glimpse of who you are?
- [06:31]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Absolutely. So my name is Holly Wilkiszewski. As you all know, I have currently split my time. I am based in New Mexico in a little kind of corner of New Mexico in the middle of nowhere where my husband and I are building an Earthship. That's a whole other thing we could talk about. But I'm talking to you today.
- [06:51]
Anne Bogle
Don't leave us hanging on that.
- [06:53]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah. So I think it actually lines up really well with the things we're going to talk about today because it's sort of this futuristic but also very grounded model of building that's in concert with the earth. So lots of fun things to say about that. But we are building an Earthship living off grid here on solar power and water catchment. And then when I'm not in New Mexico, I live the digital nomad life, usually a few months out of the year and get to put up with, well, the team gets to put up with me chiming in at all sorts of weird hours of the day as I'm joining meetings for From Indonesia at 2am my time or doing fun things like that. So it's a bit of a. Yeah, it's a bit of a hybrid life that I have put together that has been the result of many years of doing just sort of more normal things. So my husband was in the military for many years. We bounced around a lot in that chapter of life. I worked in the government. I've had a lot of different jobs and worn a lot of different hats. And about, gosh, almost eight, eight or nine years ago now, I guess I started working for myself and doing technical digital consulting. And that's what eventually led me to apply to my position here with the show as the media production specialist. So it's a great alignment of my passion for books and reading, obviously, and also my interest in all the technical things that work on the back end of shows and productions and projects like this. So that's a little bit of who I am and where I am and what I do. As far as reading. Oh my goodness, where do I even start? That's always the question, right? Yeah. I mean, as with everyone that comes on the show, I feel like I've always been a reader. Books have always been such an important part of my life. I was always the kid who my mom would set up play dates with my friends and then find me hidden in the closet reading my book instead of actually being social. So I've overcome that challenge in my life. I'm able to be a social person now. But yeah, I've just. I've always been drawn to stories of adventure and stories that allow me to look at the world around us in perhaps a different light. And I think that that is what has really cemented my love for the science fiction and fantasy genre over the years. And these days I'm just always looking for new Goodreads that are going to draw me in and help me get curious about the world around us.
- [09:15]
Anne Bogle
Has science fiction and fantasy always been the place where you camped out or was that a journey?
- [09:21]
Holly Wilkiszewski
You know, it really started early for me. I think I've talked about this a little bit, I think in the blog post. I wrote for the books that shaped me in that series, which was a lot of fun. But one of my earliest book memories is my dad reading the Chronicles of Narnia to me at night. And I think that once I sort of had this taste of magical worlds and adventures and kids that had powers and all these opportunities that we're not some. Something I saw around me in my normal life in the real world, I was like, okay, tell me more. And a lot of my earliest reading memories are books that had some type of a magical or fantastical bent to them. You know, like, gosh, Everything by Madeleine l'. Engle. I remember one particular book called the Girl with the Silver Eyes that had this, like, magical young, kind of sleuthy girl. I want to say that one I haven't read in quite a long time. But those were the types of books I was always drawn to and would go and scour the local library or the school library to check out. And then I remember a few other kind of critical moments in my young reading life. The first one is when I read Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card. And that just, like, blew me away with the smart look at everything from, like, control to political narratives to how different children were kind of growing up in this world and taking back some power for themselves. And then, you know, it just kind of went from there. There were the Lord of the Rings, obviously, you know, all the classics that are in this genre. And then more recently, I've really enjoyed branching out and expanding beyond sort of the classics that are wonderful. But, you know, maybe we have some room for more voices, especially in fantasy, for books that aren't written by old white men.
- [11:04]
Anne Bogle
Well, I'm really excited to get in more today, and I know that we're talking to readers who share your love and concentration in the science fiction and fantasy section of the bookstore and library, and also those who dabble occasionally and want to know, okay, if I want to branch out, if I'm exploring more, what's good, like, what will I like? And so I love how we are going to be able to talk about all those things today. Holly, you mentioned at the team meeting recently that you've been shifting more from fantasy towards sci fi. And I'm so interested in hearing what's going on here. But first, I'm often surprised by how many readers are like, wait, what are we talking about exactly? Like, this is why we do our starter guides over on Patreon. Like, what exactly is the genre? What kind of books are within it? What do I need to know as a reader to feel, like, competent and competent going in. So if you were to describe, like, what. What will we find in the fantasy sci fi realm? What's your easy answer? Is that unfair? How do you give, like, a broad orientation?
- [12:08]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, spoiler alert. We are doing a starter guide for sci fi and fantasy later this fall. So we'll be digging into this with a lot more detail. Shannon and I are going to be working on that together, and I'm really excited about that. But for today's purposes, I can kind of zoom us out a little bit and say at a high level, fantasy and science fiction are basically telling stories where you are seeing things that are not actually present in our current world, right? So science fiction is often grounded in technology and science. So you have everything from, like, you know, subgenres like cyberpunk, which is dealing with, like, computers and hackers and technical implementations. And, you know, I think a great example of something that falls into that sort of universe is the Murderbot series by Martha Wells, which I know is wildly popular and a big touch point for a lot of our readers and listeners, but typically you're looking at things, like, often happening in space, but not always. As with every genre, there's a bit of a spectrum, right? And a lot of these stories are also sort of in the speculative fiction genre more broadly, which is looking at things through a lens that is just slightly off from a literary fiction, right? Where you have the existence that we're used to in our world and, like, the laws that we're accustomed to, whether that's laws of science or laws of nature or. Or laws of our legal system, right? So with science fiction, you're taking all of that and you're saying, okay, well, what if we had a mystery, but it happened in space? What if the protagonist was a robot? What if this was something where we biohacked a plant and then the plant became sentient and then what happened next? So a lot of it deals in possibilities, and that's something I really like about science fiction. I'm sure we'll come back to that. Whereas fantasy is much more on, like, the magical side of things rather than the science side of things. So with fantasy, you've got wizards, you've got various, you know, races, you know, kind of the standard fantasy that I think people often think of as, like, the wizard in the pointy hat, and, like, elves and gnomes and weird trolls under bridges and whatnot. And that's very much can be the fantasy genre, but it also can be a lot more than that. And you look at things like magical realism that sort of bridges the gap into fantasy or stories where, you know, are. They're grounded in mythology or fairy tales. That's another subgenre that I particularly really enjoy. So high level. And I tend to use a lot more words when I'm talking about these things because I get excited. So maybe it's like high to medium level. That's how I would describe both of those genres for the reader who maybe hasn't looked at them more closely.
- [14:45]
Anne Bogle
Thank you for that. Now, one of the fun things we do around here is invite readers to look closely at their own reading lives and what interests and sometimes epiphanies are driving the books that they choose to pick up and, you know, what they enjoy, what hits and what doesn't, and why. So I'd love to come back to your shift from fantasy to more sci fi. I know that you've reflected at length over time, but my short version to pitch to you is, Holly, what's going on here?
- [15:17]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Definitely. And you totally asked me that question. I just didn't answer it at all in my last answer. So let's dive in. Now.
- [15:23]
Anne Bogle
You know everything. When the time is right, we're ready.
- [15:25]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Absolutely. So I think, like so many readers, I have really enjoyed and inhaled a lot of the recent fantasy and particularly romantasy books that have been having a moment. You know, I love Sarah J. Maas. Like, that's my popcorn reading. It's not like the most incredible storytelling ever. But you know what? When I'm sitting by the side of a pool, like, that's what I'm reaching for. It's fun. I like it.
- [15:50]
Anne Bogle
Time out. Some readers are going to groan and some are going to say, thank you, Anne. Romantasy. Please define.
- [15:56]
Holly Wilkiszewski
That is actually a contentious question. Right? Because.
- [15:59]
Anne Bogle
And I made it sound so easy.
- [16:01]
Holly Wilkiszewski
No, it's all good. If we had Leigh here, I think she would be in for this conversation, because there's always been fantasy romance, and then there's romantic fantasy, and now there's this Romantasy genre that is kind of pushing these things, two things together, and I think has kind of caused expectations for certain tropes. So again, I think all of our readers probably know what a trope is, but if for some reason they don't, that's basically a theme or a concept that is, you know, driving a story. So, for instance, in, like, the romance genre, which, again, Lee is so much more qualified to speak about than I AM and she has got some great bonus episodes about. But in the romance genre, one of the tropes is one bed. Like two protagonists. Maybe they started to fall for each other already. Maybe they haven't. All of a sudden, they find themselves at an inn in the woods, and there's only one bed, and then that becomes an instigating incident. So just like other genres, there are these tropes that drive fantasy and science fiction books as sort of an anchor that the story can hang on. And with Romantasy, I think that there started to be a lot of expectations of what that looks like. And, you know, there have been love stories in fantasy books for years and years, but the way that they're coming together now feels like, to me, as a reader who's read in this space for a long time, feels like it's become very formulaic. And to me, it feels like the early 2000s all over again, when we had Twilight and the Hunger Games and, oh, my gosh, and Harry Potter to some extent. And then all of a sudden, there's all these books about vampires and books about dystopian societies, and some of them were quite good, but it just became almost fatiguing. And this part of the genre that I really, really liked became something where I was like, ugh, another book about dragons. No, I just can't.
- [17:48]
Anne Bogle
And this isn't specific to Romantasy. This happens in every genre. People are probably pitching a book as the next whatever right now, but I'm going back to the next Gone Girl and how for a period of time, that was everywhere.
- [18:03]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yes.
- [18:03]
Anne Bogle
And I think that says a lot about what you enjoy as a reader. And I imagine part of that is, like, the discovery, the finding something new, not just the next, but, like, the truly inventive. But I'm just making stuff up. How does that. Okay, take it.
- [18:17]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Take it away. I think that really resonates because I think what really kind of pushed me over the edge with this is I recently read a very popular book in this Romantasy space, and I just felt like as I was reading it, I saw the, like, check boxes on the whiteboard that the author was following of, like, oh, I. I got this. Oh, I addressed this topic. Oh, we've got this trope in there. And I just felt like there wasn't any room for that surprise and delight that we're really looking for in our reading life. And that was frustrating to me. And I said, you know, maybe I just need to press pause on this particular area of the bookstore. It's not for me right now. I can come back to it in the future. And I took a closer look at what I had been reading lately and I saw there'd been so much in this one space and I said, you know, I really just don't think I've read a lot of great, exciting new sci fi stories lately. That feels like a gap. I want to intentionally return to that space and see what I can find because I know there's so much good storytelling happening over there right now and I just need to bring that back in and readjust a little bit.
- [19:18]
Anne Bogle
Yeah, that's such a powerful realization. And today we're very focused on what this means to you as a reader, Holly, and where it's leading you. Although there certainly are conversations to be had about, like, what's, what's going on here, like what is driving this. And Lee and I have had some conversations about the TikTok of it all, but that's not our conversation for today.
- [19:37]
Holly Wilkiszewski
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- [20:07]
Anne Bogle
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Holly Wilkiszewski
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Anne Bogle
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Holly Wilkiszewski
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Anne Bogle
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Holly Wilkiszewski
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- [20:35]
Anne Bogle
So Holly, as you're looking for the new, the surprising, the I mean, you said delightful, so I won't shy away from it, you're finding this is taking you from fantasy more into sci fi. Am I following that? Right?
- [20:48]
Holly Wilkiszewski
That's where I'm feeling it right now. Yeah, that's where it's taking me in this moment.
- [20:52]
Anne Bogle
Okay, I'd love to hear more.
- [20:54]
Holly Wilkiszewski
One of the things I've been doing is looking at some of the gaps in my reading and I feel like there's so many classics of sci fi that I have not yet read, despite reading quite a bit in this genre over the years. So for instance, recently I just finally read the first book in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vor Kosigan Saga, which is. She's an incredibly prolific science fiction writer. I think there's like, 15 books in this series alone. This is called Shards of Honor. It was published in 1986, and I could not put it down. Ann, it was so great. It was just like, you know, and again, you know, coming back to what we just talked about, there was a love story in this book, but that's not really what it was about. It was about discovery. It was about compromise. It was about coming to terms with a relationship across different cultures and political environments. There was intrigue. There was humor. There was so much humor. And it's not a perfect book. You know, it's from 1986. Culture and society has changed a lot since then. There were a few things that I would point out to it and say, oh, maybe that could have been done differently now. But I just. I haven't had that, like, sense of ease in picking up a book and just diving in for quite some time. And I think that's the other thing that I really look for, particularly with science fiction, but also with any of my reading, is just this sense of immersive world building. And that's something that, when it's done well, I don't mind doing the work for some world building if it's going to be rewarding and it's going to be immersive, and I'm just going to be totally consumed by this space. And I know for some people, world building is like, a hard. Nope. Like, nope, don't want to do it. Take me somewhere else. I'm not interested. And I completely understand that. But for me, I think that's something I'm really looking for right now.
- [22:34]
Anne Bogle
Okay, so if it feels like someone telling you a great story, as opposed to, I don't know, sometimes it feels like somebody has handled me. An IKEA dresser with, like, no instructions and three missing pieces. And, like, here, put this together. That's how the beginning of, like, a heavy world building story can feel to me sometimes.
- [22:51]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah.
- [22:52]
Anne Bogle
What I'm hearing is not that, you.
- [22:54]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Know, and occasionally that works for me. I will say sometimes, like, if I'm in the right frame of mind, then I can really appreciate the opportunity to just be dropped in the middle of something and be, like, completely confused. And I find that that has its own reading journey and experience that I really enjoy. And I think that I see some parallels there to my desire to travel in my real life, to just be dropped in a new City where I don't speak the language and I don't understand how to get around. And it's like the art of discovering that is part of the adventure. So sometimes that does work for me, but it has to be done well also. Right. And I think a great example I can give of this, it's actually more of a fantasy book, but it has a lot of world building and a lot of just expectation. It comes from an author that is from Aotearoa, New Zealand, and she basically just refused to write this in the Western fantasy tradition. She's like, nope, this is going to draw on, like, our heritage. This is going to draw on Maori heritage. This is going to use vocabulary that people use when they're in Aotearo, New Zealand, like, and I'm sorry, but you just have to keep up if you're a Western reader. Good luck, have fun. This is called the Dawn Hounds by Sasha Stranak. And I think that's a good example of a book where it made it a little difficult. And I actually had to start it twice. The first time I just had to set it aside. And then I came back to it and I just loved it and could not put it down. So sometimes that type of world building does work. But right now, there's so much happening in the world, there's so much going on, there's so much just weight everywhere. I'm really looking for that sense of easily just sliding into something where it feels different, fantastical, full of possibilities and just delightful.
- [24:38]
Anne Bogle
We're hearing that from a lot of readers right now.
- [24:41]
Holly Wilkiszewski
I think it's that time in our life.
- [24:45]
Anne Bogle
I love reading a book that I've been meaning to read forever, especially sometimes a classic or a modern classic, and having that sense of like, oh, my gosh, if I'd known how good this was gonna be, I would have read it ages ago. What was I waiting for? And I'm so curious to. If your experience with Shards of Honor is making you look for other you, I think use the word gaps. Other gaps you could fill in books you've been meaning to read for ages. But also, I mean, I can see how it might make you want to run away with the whole 15 book series.
- [25:14]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah, I think some of both, some of each. I definitely put the next book on hold at the library, so that will be coming my way. But I think it's also make me say, okay, who are some of the other writers in this space that I haven't yet explored? And whether they are more backlist or just Newer titles. I think there's such a wealth of writing happening in the science fiction genre right now too, because of so many of the questions that we are facing in our lives. You know, there's a lot of writing right now in this space about AI and you know, and that's not new, you know. One of my favorite series is Ann Leckie's Imperial Rats trilogy, which was, you know, I want to say, like late 2000 early. I didn't look up the date when it was started, but it was at least a decade ago that the series, this trilogy, was published and it dealt with a sentient robotic character and what that looked like and how that interacted with humanity and aliens and all the other people and concepts that were on the page. So it's not new, but I feel like there's been a big uptick in that happening lately as we are trying to grapple with how we use AI in our lives or don't, or retreat from it, or embrace it or adapt it. And I know that's a conversation that just is permeating everything right now. So again, I just love that science fiction allows us to look at questions like that without having to ground it in like, the very sometimes heavy, everyday realities of what it means for like our jobs and our lives and our communities. We can instead say, how do we think about this creatively in a different context? And yeah, I'm not going to give away the title today because it's going to be in our upcoming team of best books of Summer, I think. But I've got a particular one in mind that I really have enjoyed on that, that topic lately.
- [27:00]
Anne Bogle
I'll wait patiently. Where else are your explorations taking you?
- [27:04]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah, I am doing a lot of revisiting of series that I've started but have not completed for some reason. So Arkady Martine's memory called Empire, which I adored, it was a five star read for me a few years ago. I actually discovered that thanks to your Patreon conversation with Emily Van Arc, ages and ages ago. But I haven't read book two, A Desolation Called Peace. It's been on my Kindle for years. I don't know, I think I've been hoarding it a little bit. But she just released a new book, so now I'm like, okay, I know I have something else in the works from her. So I can go back and read book two, knowing that it's not going to be the bottom of the well for this author who I really, really like. And then Looking at just new to me writers, Adrian Tchaikowski. He's everywhere, he's prolific.
- [27:52]
Anne Bogle
I keep seeing him everywhere, but I.
- [27:54]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Haven'T read him yet and I haven't either. And again, I don't have a good reason for that other than I just haven't, you know, limited time. So many books that are drawing our energy and attention, but that's somebody who I'd really like to start to explore his world and his writings this year. Let's see. Cameron Hurley, who is an author that actually our team member Bren recommended to me. And I have a few books on my Kindle that I have not yet read. I think one of the things I mentioned in our mid year freakout bonus episode is that I've been really trying to work through my Kindle TBR this year and maybe this is illustrating some of why that's a goal that I have. So those are a few authors that I'm really, really excited about. And then just looking at a few other backlists like Sophia Samatar's A Stranger in Olondria, that's been on my TBR for years and I've heard so many great things about that in its follow up. So that's high on my list right now as well.
- [28:47]
Anne Bogle
Holly, I know that you're shifting more towards sci fi than fantasy, but I can't imagine you've. Wait, no, no, no, no. I talk with you in Slack every day. I know you haven't left fantasy behind. What kind of fantasy is working for you?
- [28:59]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Well right now I'm really enjoying fantasy that is in that mythology or fairy tale retelling, like kind of sub.
- [29:09]
Anne Bogle
Oh my gosh. This is on my list for you. Okay.
- [29:12]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah. And specifically when it is a non American tale. So you know, I think we all know or even like a non European mythology or mythos because I think we all know those stories and we've seen so many of them and I'm still reading those spaces. Right. I've got, you know, I'm reading the new T. Kingfisher which is based on like the Snow White myth and like I love that like I'm not saying no to those things, but there are so many other tales and stories that we can draw from. Another book that I mentioned in the mid year freak out, which I'm so excited about is the Door on the Sea by Kaski Russell. And this is being billed as a like Tlingit indigenous retelling or not retelling, but take on like the Lord of the Rings. Again, not a Western mythology. But I love the idea of looking at this through a different lens, through a different cultural perspective. And I just got that one on NetGalley, so. So I'm quite excited about it.
- [30:07]
Anne Bogle
Holly. For those dabbling in science fiction, fantasy, or really any other genre where they just don't feel, you know, as conversant with like, what's out there, what to expect, their readerly radar is not as finely tuned as they feel like it is in other genres. You know, like for a good family saga, I can like read the premise and read a couple pages of the book and have a good idea of not if it's gonna be like a 5 star read for me or a 3, but have a good idea of what, what kind of neighborhood I'm in. For those who aren't feeling as acquainted, can you just walk me through a little bit of how you experiment, what catches your eye, what you've learned you do and don't like. If you could just riff freely on the idea of experimenting and the genre you're still getting acquainted with, I think that'd be really useful. And plus, I'm just nerdy curious, please.
- [30:56]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Absolutely. So I think that there are a couple ways I could answer this. One is that there are definitely writers who have written sort of more traditional contemporary fiction or literary fiction or genre fiction that maybe is not fantasy and sci fi, like say a murder mystery, who have also written in the science fiction or fantasy genre or sort of some crossover books. So I feel like that's a really great place to sort of dip your toes in the water if you are not sure about reading, you know, about dwarves and elves and magic or, you know, sentient robots in space. So I think that that's one thing I definitely think about is if I read something by an author, and for me it often works in reverse. It's like, oh, well, I really like this author's speculative fiction novel. And I see that they've written, you know, a contemporary fiction novel. Maybe I'll give that a try and see what I think about it. I also think, you know, looking at some of those tropes or grounding ideas can help you understand kind of what you're getting into and only changing some of the factors versus all the factors. And a great example of this, I think is there was a book a few years ago, I believe, in the Summer Reading Guide, and I am not remembering the title, but it was by Mary Robinette Kowal and this was the murder mystery, but it was on a spaceship and there were some Science fictiony things going on, but it still felt more like a noir murder mystery in space. Space.
- [32:24]
Anne Bogle
Was this the Spare Man?
- [32:26]
Holly Wilkiszewski
This was the Spare Man. Thank you. That was it. And I think that is a great entry point also is to find a story or a book that is, you know, maybe it's dealing with the types of themes that you enjoy as a reader, but it just happens to have a different setting. You know, maybe it's a heist novel and you love heist stories, but it happens to be on a spaceship. Right. Yeah.
- [32:53]
Anne Bogle
I'm laughing because I love a heist story in a really, I mean, literally sometimes out there setting.
- [32:59]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah. Well, I think a great example of that is like the Six of Crows duology by Leigh Bardugo. Right. I mean, that is a very broadly appealing story that is told in a way that I think is accessible to a lot of readers because it has this heist framework of like, okay, we know kind of who the different characters are and what their role is and how they all work together. But there also happens to be some magicky things going on. So I think that it's such a spectrum, right. It's like there is hard science fiction and fantasy that is, like, very dense, has its own languages, is very, I would say, inaccessible to the kind of average reader who doesn't necessarily have a passion or an interest in that, but that's really only like such a small subset of the genre. So I think that one of the best ways to know where to start with science fiction fantasy is to ask someone who reads in that space. Right. And that's kind of what we're doing today. But I know Shannon had written a great post about kind of a Beginner's guide and her journey into science fiction fantasy. You know, talking to booksellers at your favorite bookstore, looking at things that have worked for you, and seeing, okay, who else is writing like this authority, you know, I think Becky Chambers has been such a great entry point for so many because her books feel inviting. The kind of growth of the cozy fantasy, cozy sci fi sub genre as well, I think is a really good place to dip your toes in and to kind of see where it takes you.
- [34:30]
Anne Bogle
Yeah. Okay, thanks for that. And on that note, we thought it would be fun today to share a few very specific, specific book recommendations for those getting started with branching out, you know, just like a step or two beyond your comfort zone. So three very accessible hospitable titles and also three just super niche and nerdy ones for those who are like, yeah, yeah, Holly of course. I've read that. Like, tell me something different. Are you ready?
- [34:57]
Holly Wilkiszewski
I am. Let's do it. The McDonald's snack wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back. Ba da ba ba ba. Close your eyes. Exhale.
- [35:18]
Anne Bogle
Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today.
- [35:23]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.
- [35:31]
Anne Bogle
And breathe.
- [35:32]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.
- [35:46]
Anne Bogle
Holly. Let's start with the broadly hospitable ones. Take it away.
- [35:50]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Absolutely. So I kind of put these into three general categories of, like, science fiction, fantasy, and just speculative more broadly. And that's kind of hard to define. We talked about earlier. It's a pretty broad umbrella, but for science fiction, I've already mentioned Becky Chambers. I think there's really very few better places to start than with her work because it is so hospitable. But I also think this is an opportunity to think about if one of your biggest barriers to starting to read in this space is the world building. What if you could step into a world that has already been created? And whether you're a fan or not, I think everyone in our current culture is aware of the Star wars universe. And there's been this growing ecosystem of shows on Disney with the Mandalorian and Andor and all that. So we're seeing a lot more people, I think, viewing and engaging with the Star wars universe than maybe there were originally with the movies. And there are a whole. Like, you could fill a bookstore with Star wars books. They are out there as well. Like, that was actually one of my earlier entry points into the sci F genre. Also, that kind of solidified my love for it was reading the Timothy Zahn trilogy back in the early 1990s. But since then, this is where I come back to one of my earlier points. You know, authors that are already known and loved, like Claudia Gray, for instance. She wrote the murder of Mr. Wickham and some related titles. So not in science fiction fantasy genre space. She has written a whole bunch of Star wars books, and some of them are, you know, following Princess Leia after the events of the original series and what happened with her and her political journey and all this. So again, this isn't for everyone, but if you're looking at wanting to fast track the world building, this could be an interesting niche to look at for you. So those are a few sci fi ones that I would want to point out.
- [37:41]
Anne Bogle
Okay. We also need to tell the readers who don't know what you told me. That shocked me. I didn't know Rebecca Roanhorse had a Star wars novel.
- [37:48]
Holly Wilkiszewski
She does, yes. And there are a number of, again, popular writers who have also written Star wars books. So I have not actually read her Star wars novel yet, which feels like a major gap in omission. So I will be fixing that.
- [38:01]
Anne Bogle
It's something to look forward to.
- [38:03]
Holly Wilkiszewski
It is, absolutely. So those are a few entry points I'd offer again, and it's been talked about so many times on the show. But I do think Martha Wells and her Murderbot series is a great pick here too, particularly if you choose to pair it with the Apple TV show, which I have mixed feelings about, but overall I'm a fan of, so could have a whole conversation on that. But so if we shift to fantasy. I really enjoyed the Adventures of Amina El Sarafi, which was also a past summer reading guide pick. This feels to me like a really accessible, fun way to dip your toes into the fantasy world because it has a woman who has questions and concerns about like her family and her relationships and her career, but she's also, you know, fighting mystical sea beasts and things like that. So we have magic, but we also have these really fully bodied characters that you want to root for. And it's really a voice of humor throughout. It doesn't feel like it's taking itself too seriously. It's not, you know, it's not something that feels inaccessible in any way. So I think that is a really great starting point.
- [39:07]
Anne Bogle
No, I mean that one has like some. It deals with serious issues and also, I mean, is it wrong to say it feels like a romper?
- [39:15]
Holly Wilkiszewski
No, I completely agree. I think that's a good word for it. And again, it's coming back to the ability of this genre to do just that, to address serious issues and questions while also feeling entertaining, light, detached from the drama and struggle of everyday life. Which again, is something I love about it. I think there's another series that I believed I've mentioned periodically here before, but Kristin Caw, she writes kind of young adult or young adult feeling fantasy books and she has a series of interlinked stories in the graceling realm. I feel like these Books are just wildly underrated. They feel very accessible and easy to read. They deal with sort of fantastical elements, but they don't feel too foreign or too far. So I think she does really, really easy world building really well. So that's another good starting point, I think, for this particular genre. And then if we look at speculative fiction, I mean, gosh, this is so broad. We could go in so many different directions. But one of my top picks here is Connie Willis. I think if you look at things like her time travel books, like the Doomsday book, where this woman gets transported back during the time of the Black Death or the plague. Now, I'm not sure which is which as I'm speaking about it, but in any case, she gets sent back in time for this. There's a few other related stories which, with time travel, some of my favorites happened during the London Blitz. And again, she just takes things that were actual events that happened in the world with real people that could be our neighbors and our co workers and says, okay, well, what about if this happened? Or what if this one thing changed? What if this magical situation happened? And I think that's another subgenre that can be very appealing to people that falls into the speculative sci fi ish genre, which is alternate timelines. And that's something that can feel. You could go down the rabbit hole with that. But I just think of the man in the High Castle by Philip Dick. What if Germany won World War II? There's no magic there. There's no elves, there's no trolls under bridges. There's no space opera. But it's this immersive what if question that tells a really fascinating story.
- [41:25]
Anne Bogle
Yeah. And I'm noticing that going back to the how to begin experimenting, what direction to move in, how to kind of sense what might work for you. I'm a little surprised by my, like, gut reaction, which was, oh, I love those. When you're talking about the alternate histories. And so just in my mind I was going, wait, is that true? It absolutely is. I love an alternate history. Yeah. Because the questions they. They ask are not necessary. But the places they take you are so fascinating. And, you know, I'm also noticing places outside science fiction fantasy where that kind of interest could take me. Like right now I'm reading the Power Broker by Robert Caro. And I feel like the whole thing is a big, like, what if this dude hadn't been in charge? What if different factors had driven the development of, specifically in this case, New York City? And I feel like team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin also had this big what if lingering over it, even though it wasn't obviously science fiction fantasy. That's narrative nonfiction history. But I think I'm saying I love the what are the possibilities? What's the chain of events and the books that really appeal to me in science fiction fantasy. Oh, gosh, that's a broad generalization that couldn't possibly be true. But I am saying that that sense of possibility, what could happen? What impact do our actions have? Or fate sometimes I'm here for it.
- [42:46]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah.
- [42:47]
Anne Bogle
Okay. Thank you for going on that verbal processing journey with me, Holly. Connie Willis. Thank you.
- [42:52]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah, Connie Willis. All right, so we wanted to share some niche and nerdy titles, too. And this is going to be so dependent on, like, what your particular niche is. But there are a few that I would, I would share.
- [43:03]
Anne Bogle
Holly, we're talking about your reading life.
- [43:04]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Today, so for sure, let's hear. So I've already touched on a few of these, actually, as we've had our conversation today. So there is a little bit of a repeat. But I think Ann Leckie's Imperial Ratchet trilogy that starts with Ancillary justice is pretty nerdy. Like her world building does not hold your hand. It just drops you right in. And you have to figure out what's going on. And there's shit and embodied AI and political intrigue, and it is a lot, but once you get in, it is just fascinating. And I loved this trilogy. It probably would be one of my top three picks if I was doing my. If we were doing our traditional tell me your three favorites to be representative of this genre, this would be one of them.
- [43:41]
Anne Bogle
I haven't read these yet, but at my local bookstore they are big fans of this trilogy. And yeah, every time I walk by this section, I'm like, oh, right, that's on my list. Thank you for the reminder.
- [43:54]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Absolutely. And she's written a few other works, too, that I have not yet read, so those are also high on my. Okay, let's get back into our sci fi world reading. So she has a novella called Provenance and then a new book, newer book that's completely unrelated to this other universe. So she's still doing some great work and I'm excited to read more of her books.
- [44:12]
Anne Bogle
Sounds good.
- [44:13]
Holly Wilkiszewski
One other one that I would point out here again in sort of a classic throwback, is Hyperion by Dan Simmons. It's a 1989 classic of the genre. It is inspired by the structure of the Canterbury Tales and follows a bunch of different perspectives on this sort of dramatic storyline. I don't want to say too much about it.
- [44:32]
Anne Bogle
What I don't know about this one.
- [44:34]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yes, I highly recommend it. The only thing I will say is I read the sequel and I found the sequel profoundly disappointing. So read it and just let it be a standalone if you pick this up.
- [44:44]
Anne Bogle
Okay.
- [44:45]
Holly Wilkiszewski
But yeah, Hyperion is, I think, again, I don't want to say too much because of spoilers, although if it's a 1989 book, I don't know if that's a thing, but it draws on this structure that I think is really accessible even if the story is telling. Feels foreign. Should we go to fantasy?
- [45:03]
Anne Bogle
Yeah.
- [45:03]
Holly Wilkiszewski
So again, I mentioned this one already. This is the Dawn Hounds by Sasha Stronach and this is doing this book does a lot of crazy things, but at its heart we also have a noir mystery with a detective who is trying to figure out a problem. So that part of it makes it feel accessible, but it's in this crazy world where there's been a war and metal is no longer being used in this society and they've basically managed to tap into like mushrooms and biohacking and like mycelium grown houses and it's very like biopunky, which can feel a little bit again, confusing at first when you jump into the world. It took me a little while to get into it, but loved it. I think this is a part book one into a trilogy. Book two is out. Again, you're going to see a trend here. Haven't read book two yet. So this is maybe my year of reading book two in my trilogy.
- [45:59]
Anne Bogle
Honestly, I love that for you.
- [46:01]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah, I love that for me too. It's great. And then with speculative and fantasy, gosh, I could just go so many directions because again, there's so many subgenres. But I want to call out a particular subgenre called weird fiction. This is a genre that kind of blurs the lines and often includes a heavy helping of horror or body horror. Jeff Vandermeer is a well known author in this space, but the one that I would recommend for readers that are curious to try to dip their toes into this genre is China Meeville's the City. And the City stands up in my mind years later as one of the more thought provoking books I've read about how we live in the world around us. Basically the concept here is and you're going to see a bit of a trend. There's a murder, murder mystery, detectives, all these stories that overlap. But it takes place in this world where there are two cities that occupy the same physical space but have reached a political arrangement where you either live in one city or the other city and you can only see and interact with the city that you live in. So it's very kind of hard to conceptualize this initially, but, you know, you might be walking down the street and if you're a member of one city, on the other side of the street, a dog barks. And if you acknowledge that physically or visually or verbally, you could get arrested by the police for violation of the city coexistence rules. It's a fascinating story. I loved it. It's been made into a limited series on, I believe, Amazon prime that I thought was pretty good as well a few years back. But China Miebel is a very prolific writer as well and someone that I think is doing interesting things in this space. But I think the City and the City is a great entry point for his writing.
- [47:44]
Anne Bogle
Okay, that sounds amazing. I've checked that out of the library a few times and haven't yet read it.
- [47:50]
Holly Wilkiszewski
I would encourage you to maybe give it another try and see what you think. I'd love to know.
- [47:55]
Anne Bogle
This is my sign. Okay. Holly, what are you reading right now and what are you reading next?
- [48:00]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Right now I am reading a bunch of books for the upcoming Patreon bonuses that I'm working on. So I don't want to give them away too much. So I'm going to take a hard right turn here, actually. So one of the things I love, as I've talked about already, is immersive world building. And one of the genres that does that for me really well outside of sci fi and fantasy is a lot of the narrative, nonfiction, memoir, and particularly I'm thinking of the Place of Tides by James Rebanks, which I am just starting and so excited about. But I feel like books like that, that just immerse you in a world that is ours but is so foreign because I have never been to this tiny island and worked with Eider, down and Ducks. I know nothing about this. Bring me in. Tell me all about it. Let me learn. Let me be immersed in this. So that's one book that I just got started on that I am excited about reading.
- [48:54]
Anne Bogle
That's interesting to hear how your natural next steps into new literary territory look. And that makes me want to walk into Charlotte McConaughey with you. Have you read her?
- [49:06]
Holly Wilkiszewski
You know, I have not. I have gotten Wild Dark Shore from the library several times and have not gotten to it and my hold has expired. So I've been told by a lot of people that that would be a great starting point for for me with her writing. And when I say a lot of people, I mostly mean you. In the podcast.
- [49:25]
Anne Bogle
I didn't know we were having those conversations, but I'm happy to discover that one way.
- [49:30]
Holly Wilkiszewski
But the point was coming through. So that is definitely one I'm very curious about.
- [49:36]
Anne Bogle
There's also a really strong link, if only in my mind, between that and the James rebanks, both extreme top and bottom of the world climates undergoing changing environments, changing ways of life. Yeah, there's a lot there for you.
- [49:53]
Holly Wilkiszewski
And I love a remote destination like that, whether it's a spaceship or an island at the end of the world. So I also am newly starting the Shadow of what Was Lost by James Islington. So he has become really well known for his book the Will of the Many, which I think Bailey had maybe talked about in a recent recent episode or bonus or maybe just in our booktok channel. I'm not sure. But that has gotten a lot of attention I think lately. And he also has this more high fantasy again. Here we are going back to fantasy. It's still there. Don't worry. Series that has just been so well spoken about and I'm really excited about making some progress in that one.
- [50:32]
Anne Bogle
I was about to say we all have our touchstones. Is that true, do you think, in the reading life?
- [50:37]
Holly Wilkiszewski
I think so. I think so. It's sort of the ideas or the places we keep coming back to. Oh, and then my other thing I'm working on is working on my T Kingfisher reading. Lee put one of her books on my radar last year when I was in a bit of a reading slump. I mentioned that I'm reading her new Believe forthcoming release that is grounded in snow whites.
- [51:02]
Anne Bogle
What's that called?
- [51:03]
Holly Wilkiszewski
It's called Hemlock and Silver and I believe it's coming out this August. Another one that I just got a starting on is actually it's a re release, but it's an author, Andrea Hairston, and her book is called Mindscape. And again, this is one of these stories that's kind of talking about information and control and elements of AI without being like super AI focused. It is an older book that I would put into the sci fi or speculative space, but that's another one that she's been on my reading list for quite a while, so I'm excited to see how that one goes for me.
- [51:38]
Anne Bogle
Holly, thank you so much for this deep dive into your reading life and the options in the science fiction and fantasy genres. And I've added so many books. Well four, four read this immediately books to my own tbr. So thank you for that. And I know it's not just me. Now for those who want even more book recommendations or just like different flavors of what might be available for them and what they're looking to read next, where would you point them?
- [52:02]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Yeah, so we have so many great conversations over in our Patreon archives as well as forthcoming. I mentioned a few episodes that we do have forthcoming the Starter Guide that's going to be coming out this fall. And we actually have an episode dropping this Friday on Patreon where I'm sharing some of my most anticipated science fiction fantasy releases as a little summer reading guide bonus add on addendum. So that's coming forward. But also if we look back in the archives, your conversation with Emily Van Ark, I know we'd had some great follow ups with some past guests about their reading tastes in this space. We'll put some links in the show notes for that. And I did a bonus that was much more fantasy focused about a year ago called Female Forward Fantasy for your fourth Wing Hangover. So if you missed out, that one has some good entry points out as well. I also mentioned Shannon's post on the Modern Mrs. Darcy blog, which was science fiction and fantasy for beginners. Shannon and I love getting to talk about our sci fi fantasy reading together and I would definitely direct readers who are curious about this space to check in with her recommendations as well.
- [53:07]
Anne Bogle
That sounds perfect. Thank you so much for stepping in the spotlight today.
- [53:12]
Holly Wilkiszewski
That was so much fun. Thank you for having me. Anne.
- [53:19]
Anne Bogle
Readers, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. If you have recommendations to share or you want to share what you just put on your priority tbr, we would love to hear. Please leave a comment to let us know on our Show Notes page. That's also where you'll find the full list of titles we talked about today. We do that for you every episode because this is need to know information and we want you to have it. Find those things at what Should I Read next podcast.com Sign up for our newsletter list at what Should I read next podcast.com newsletter to stay in the know about what's happening at what Should I Read Next HQ Weekly updates on the show. New Fall merch will be coming your way soon. Fall Book Preview information. That is the place to get it. We want to make sure it lands in your inbox. We're on Instagram at what Should I Read Next? And if you could take a moment to follow us or subscribe on your favorite podcast podcast player that helps our show and our team in real and tangible ways. We are on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Casts, wherever you get your podcasts when you subscribe and even more download each new episode. That is a quick, easy and totally free way to show your support for our show and really put your vote of confidence in front of our ad network and our peers. So thank you for that. It's truly makes a difference and thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? Is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wokoczewski and Studio D Podcast Productions along with support from our whole team readers. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening and as Reiner Maria Rilke said, ah how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading everyone.
- [54:58]
Holly Wilkiszewski
Sam.