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- [00:00]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I'm just never going to really like them as much as other books. Maybe not. You know, maybe I'd be closing myself off to something.
- [00:09]
Anne Bogle
And that doesn't feel good to you because there's a lot of great books out there and you don't want to miss a bunch because you're not looking.
- [00:14]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Exactly. Exactly.
- [00:16]
Anne Bogle
Okay.
- [00:17]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
That's why I've come to you. Ann.
- [00:24]
Anne Bogle
Hey, readers. I'm Anne Bogle, and this is is what should I read next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest. Readers as summer turns to fall, I'm looking for ways to bring a bit more coziness to our interior spaces. I found so many great outdoor items and accessories by shopping at Wayfair, so that's the first place I'm looking to level up our indoor spaces, too. One thing on my mind right now is finding new lamps that blend function and style. We recently added a pretty little new lamp to a bedside table, and it makes such a difference that now I want to put them everywhere. I'm on the hunt for new lamps for our prime reading locations. In the living room first, I found a stylish brass floor lamp that casts just the right amount of light at just the right angle, and it makes reading feel even cozier as well, especially when I have a paperback or hardcover in hand. Wayfair's floor lamps and accent lamps are on my short list of favorites, and there are so many great ones to choose from. It's easy to feel overwhelmed at the process of finding new home goods. Driving to the store, wondering if they have what you want in stock. Loading it up so I'm a big fan of how easy Wayfair makes it to find anything your home needs. Their website is easy to navigate. You can search by room or budget, or be inspired by their curated collections that put current trends right on your decorating radar. Plus, they have free shipping even on the big heavy items. Get organized, refreshed, and back to routine. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home readers as summer starts to turn to fall, I'm reaching for the staple pieces that move seamlessly from season to season. Quince has some of my favorites for this time of year. All my favorite Quint's pieces make me feel stylish even on days when I don't spend a lot of time picking my outfits. Everything mixes so well and is so versatile. Lately I've been wearing my linen shells and silk camis from Quints regularly alone with wide leg pants and cuff jeans, and these same pieces will make excellent base layers. Come full and as the temperatures drop, I can't wait to put my favorite Quint sweaters back in rotation like their chic cashmere and cotton sweater. Starting at just $40, Quince also makes fall classics like denim pants that are perfect whether you're on a college campus or just reading a campus novel. Quince makes quality pieces at a great price by cutting out the middleman, giving you luxury without the markup. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.com readnext for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com readnext to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com readnext readers today's guest is looking for novels featuring an ensemble cast of characters and multiple points of view, but she has a specific sticking point where she would love my help. Olivia Haber Greenwood is joining me today from Barcelona, where she's lived for the past seven years, working as a copywriter and freelance journalist. Olivia's a happy reader with an abundant reading life, but she's found herself stymied when it comes to novels featuring multiple points of view, and this is something she is really seeking a breakthrough on. Olivia loves the concept of these books, and she's seen with envy so many other readers enjoying them. But since voice is such a strong component of what she loves in a book sometimes, well, most of the time she is finding these multiple point of view novels fall a bit flat. That's because she wants to read characters with voices so strong, so distinctive, that those voices carry their personalities and even the whole story for a time. And what she dreams up is a story told from multiple points of view, where every character's distinctive, unmistakable voice elicits a big wow. It's a tall order. Can we do it? Well, I will tell you what I told Olivia. I don't know, but we are going to have fun trying today. But I will say I think by the end of our conversation we arrive at some excellent options for What Olivia may enjoy reading next. Quick note about what you're about to hear. In the recommendations portion, you'll hear Olivia ask if she should mention a certain tidbit about a Lauren Groff novel because she fears it may be spoiler. You hear, she and I go back and forth about it, and we left it in because what Olivia is referencing is what the book is about, just really what it's about, and in fact, the entire heart of author Lauren Groff's elevator Pitch for the book. I'm telling you now so that you don't get nervous when you hear the word spoiler mentioned in this episode. But if you truly want to know absolutely nothing about fates and furies except that Lauren Groff wrote it and it came out 10 years ago, skip ahead about four minutes when the book is first introduced. With that being said, let's get to it. Olivia, welcome to the show.
- [05:17]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Thank you for having me, Anne. It's great to be here.
- [05:19]
Anne Bogle
Oh, the pleasure is mine. I was actually quite intimidated when I saw your submission. I thought that is not the kind of thing, well, one, it's not the kind of thing you can Google for sure what you are looking for. And I thought, I don't know that my memory is that good where I can, like, generate some ideas. But then I kept reading and reading and I was like, oh, maybe Olivia would like this. Oh, maybe this one, maybe this one. Here's another one.
- [05:46]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Incredible.
- [05:47]
Anne Bogle
I'm excited to talk today. Long story short, although I was just telling you that I had this terrible thought 10 minutes ago that maybe I misunderstood entirely what you're looking for, but.
- [05:57]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I don't think so. I highly doubt that. And even if you did, whatever you have for me is gonna be so cool and just different than I would've expected, I'm sure.
- [06:08]
Anne Bogle
So that's where I was going with the. But we will enjoy the journey to perhaps, you know, Anne metaphorically landing in this bouldering heap of terrible book recommendations. But we get to talk about books along the way.
- [06:21]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
It's never happened before, Anne, and I doubt that my episode is going to be the first one, but I guess we'll see.
- [06:29]
Anne Bogle
We'll find out. We'll find out in 45 minutes. But first of all, thank you for being here. Would you give our readers a glimpse of who you are?
- [06:38]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
So I live in Barcelona. I've lived here for seven years. I'm originally from Missoula, Montana, and I spent a lot of my 20s kind of moving around, traveling a lot, and I ended up in Barcelona Lucky me.
- [06:55]
Anne Bogle
Olivia, hang on. Would you just for a moment, let us know how it was, Barcelona specifically, that hooked you.
- [07:03]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
You know what they say about Barcelona? They call it carcelona. Carcel means jail. So. So it's kind of like I've not heard that before. You come in and kind of a force field closes around you and you stay here. No, but, I mean, I'm joking, but at the same time, so many people tell the story. Like, I came for a few months, I thought I was going to stay for this long. And, well, you know, 13 years later, and my story is similar. I had been traveling a lot in my 20s, and I spoke Spanish because I had. Well, just throughout my life, spent a lot of time in Latin America. And I had decided that I wanted to be a courtroom interpreter. And so I was studying this, and I had passed the written exam, and I was well on my way, but I really felt like my Spanish wasn't quite fluent enough, or there was just kind of something that was lacking. And I thought, okay, I'm going to Spain. I'm going to do a master's in courtroom interpreting and legal translation, and I'm going to come back to the States, Bing bamboo, go back to Philadelphia and live that life and be well. The first part did happen, but once I got here, and I think I was just lucky because I had been traveling so much and kind of looking for the perfect place. I don't want to say Barcelona is perfect, because it's not, but I had been looking maybe for a place that had all the ingredients that I was looking for, and I had sort of maybe felt that perhaps that place didn't really exist, or it was all in my head, or I was too picky or what have you. But then I got here and I realized it was all here the whole time. So, yeah, I wasn't going to go anywhere after that.
- [09:06]
Anne Bogle
I'm glad it suits you.
- [09:07]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah. Yeah, it really does. Obviously, I didn't become a courtroom interpreter, but I became a copywriter. I also work as a freelance journalist, and I'm kind of a jack of all writing trades. I'm also working on my second novel while I shop the first one around, you know, because I'm a glutton for punishment. And, yeah, in my free time, well, I obviously read a lot. I'm always looking for the perfect cala, which is the Spanish for cove. You know, in the Mediterranean, you've got these kind of mini beaches that are very secluded. I was looking for a good one to lay down with a Book. And, yeah, I started learning piano this year for the first time. And I also dance a lot of salsa. Ooh, that sounds like fun. Yeah.
- [10:05]
Anne Bogle
Was that a before or after Barcelona hobby?
- [10:08]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Salsa started before, but really it was here in Barcelona that I was able to. Yeah. Get better at it. It's hard to find time for it all, you know, in the day to day. But, yeah, I really love it.
- [10:22]
Anne Bogle
I do. Now, Olivia, would you tell us about your reading life?
- [10:27]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
My reading life is a really happy one, I have to say. Somehow reading has escaped the part of my personality that is very kind of perfectionist. Or maybe I push myself very hard in other areas of my life or, you know, I'm never satisfied, it's never enough, something like that. But for some reason, I don't have that with books. I just. I love reading. I love the amount that I read. I don't stress about it. I feel like reading brings me a lot of peace, kind of, you know, calms my mind and helps me make sense of the world. You know that feeling when you're reading a book and, you know, the. The narrator or one of the characters says something on the page that you've always thought, but no one has ever said out loud to you, and you thought maybe you were the only person who thought that. I mean, that feeling is just kind of what I'm always after. It's such a rush. But, yeah, as far as what I actually read and how I actually read it, well, mostly fiction, a bit of writing, philosophy, journalism, memoirs and things like that as well. I do prefer a physical book, but I end up reading a lot on the Kindle because I have the Kindle connected to library back in the US So I can get kind of as many English books as I want, which otherwise would be a real challenge here in Barcelona. I do also read in Spanish, and I'm actually, for the first time ever reading a book in Catalan now. And I'm really liking it. But I mostly read in English because that's just where my reading life lives. But yeah, I do keep track of my books, at least. I've been doing a really good job of it the last three years. I have this kind of bejeweled spreadsheet that has, yeah, a little, nice little color palette, Fonsera font. And I just, I keep track of, you know, the author, obviously, the title and what I thought of the book and also whatever, any vocabulary words that I learned. That's been super fun. I've accepted the fact that I'm going to spend less Time reading because I spend so much time kind of maintaining my notes about the reading. But I think I'm good with that because I really want to remember what I read. And I find that also if I write a little paragraph about the book, then when I read that later, it just. It all comes flooding back in a way that doesn't happen if I just Google it or look at the back cover again or something like that.
- [13:31]
Anne Bogle
Yeah.
- [13:32]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
So, yeah, this year started with a friend, what we're calling a salon or kind of. Well, the word in Spanish is tertulia, but it's sort of, you know, you get people together to discuss something, and we call it red read. And the idea is that someone has read a book and they tell everyone else about it and then in such detail that those people can go forward and feel like they've read that book. Basically, they can talk about it with authority. And then we, you know, we discuss the themes over cocktails and. And it's just a. It's a way to help us read more books in the short time we have on earth.
- [14:16]
Anne Bogle
That sounds delightful. Olivia, you mentioned a very particular. I almost said quest. Is that too lofty?
- [14:25]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
No. How about don't get his hand. I think it's just lofty enough.
- [14:29]
Anne Bogle
Just lofty enough. That's what we'll title the episode about a kind of book you're looking for and having a hard time finding. And I'd love to hear a little bit about that before we hear about the books you love and don't.
- [14:43]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Okay.
- [14:43]
Anne Bogle
Would you tell us what you're looking for?
- [14:46]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
So I often hear people talking about multi POV novels, and they love them. They don't necessarily say, oh, my gosh, did you read the latest multi POV novel? But. But, you know, people will tell you a story about a book that they love, and it'll be. They'll say, and it's from multiple perspectives, and this is, you know, this is a good thing for them. And they, you know, they just love watching the characters develop, seeing them through multiple, you know, points of view, obviously, the interactions and just how that plot unfolds and, you know, certain things that other people don't. Whatever. It's very fun. And I was. Want to love it as well. And I can't say that I never have, but I often have this experience when I get to the end of one of these books, and I just think I didn't like it as much as everybody else seems to have liked it. And I don't know why that is, but My guess is it has something to do with how much I love voice driven novels. And what I mean by that is just, you know, that voice that just leaps out of the page, that person that kind of grabs you by the collar of your shirt and goes, listen up, you know, and kind of tells you something that you've never heard before, you've never thought before, but feels so authentic and it feels so real. And I just think it's so hard to do that multiple times in the book. I think it's. It's really hard to have multiple voices that are that unique and authentic.
- [16:26]
Anne Bogle
Are we talking about manners of speech? Are we talking about the words that fall in a certain order that give you, like, an idea of personality?
- [16:38]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah, it's that interiority. It's being in the mind of the protagonist. Usually it's the protagonist. It doesn't necessarily have to be in first person. Sometimes it's in third person. Like Night Bitch, for instance, by Rachel Yoder. That is just such a unique point of view. Living in that woman's head was just such an incredible experience. Or. Yeah, it's. It's that feeling of, you know, usually they're like, very funny, very acerbic, very opinionated, often, you know, going through a very hard time and you get to just step into their mind and see the world through their eyes. And I think, yeah, that's. That's kind of what I mean by voice driven. Does that make sense? Sense at all?
- [17:34]
Anne Bogle
I'm trying. Okay, so the voice driven books you like tend to have a lot of interiority, tend to portray someone going through a hard time, tend to be biting in the cervic.
- [17:49]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think it's. It's that feeling that the voice of the protagonist is kind of the most interesting part of the book. You know, not that much has to even happen. And that also maybe different from character driven novels. The person doesn't have to become better or necessarily even change that much over the course of the novel, but you feel like you've lived in their head for a little bit? I think they usually do end up changing or like, you know, something happens. But does that track for you? Does that. Is that what a voice driven novel means for you? Because maybe. Maybe I have the definition all wrong.
- [18:37]
Anne Bogle
Olivia, that's a surprisingly difficult question to answer because I told you I. Like, I read your submission multiple times before it finally clicked for me. Oh, wait. Voice driven. And I wonder what she means by that. When I think about a novel that has a really distinctive Voice. I mean, these Heathens by Maya Mackenzie comes immediately to mind from the summer reading guide where the narrator is this 17 year old girl named Doris who talks on the page in a way that I don't remember spending time with someone talking like that on the page before.
- [19:17]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah, exactly. It's how they talk on the page. Absolutely.
- [19:20]
Anne Bogle
But like, it wasn't just like, oh, doesn't this person talk in an interesting way? It was like I was being welcomed into her entire way of seeing, understanding and moving through the world.
- [19:32]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Exactly, yeah. Or Sorrow and Bliss was one I read recently after it was recommended.
- [19:40]
Anne Bogle
So that felt voicy to you?
- [19:42]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
That felt very voicy, yeah. Because you're in Martha's head, you're going through what she's going through and she's so funny, but she's so sick, you know, she's so ill. At the same time, you question her a bit, you know, but you're there with her because no one sees the world like she does.
- [20:08]
Anne Bogle
Okay, that's helpful. I hear what you're saying about the Meg Mason. When I try to contrast this with like a character driven, my brain starts breaking.
- [20:16]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right.
- [20:17]
Anne Bogle
Because sometimes maybe I wouldn't call a book character driven. Maybe I might. But I think those two things can often go together. That doesn't mean that to one specific reader they might be like, oh, the best part for me was the voice, the character's personality that really shown through every word they said. But when I try to be like, where is the line? I can't do it. But I think if we talk about books you love and the distinctive voice they have, that might be a helpful way to move forward. Does that get you what you want or no?
- [20:55]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Absolutely. Yeah, let's do it.
- [20:57]
Anne Bogle
Okay. And I'm noticing perhaps I'm gaining some insight into your problem right away. Let's put it like that. And that is, as you're describing the books that you enjoy, like, they're often biting or acerbic. You're spending time in somebody's head, often a woman often going through a hard time. You just want to be in their mind for a little bit and see things through their eyes.
- [21:20]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah.
- [21:21]
Anne Bogle
First person narratives, like, start flooding my brain.
- [21:24]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right.
- [21:24]
Anne Bogle
And that's not what you're looking for?
- [21:26]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Well, I mean, it's not that I'm not looking for them. I'm always looking for them. I'm always looking for those. But I feel like my picker is pretty well trained as far as those go. As soon as I heard Sarah and Bliss Described, for instance, I was like, oh, I'm gonna love that. And sure, of course I did. Yeah. So I'm just wondering. Yeah. How I can expand out a little bit as well, or if there's maybe a part of the book world that I'm missing that does have that or. I don't want to write off multi POV novels. You know, Like, I'm just never gonna really like them as much as other books. Maybe not. You know, maybe I'd be closing myself off to something.
- [22:13]
Anne Bogle
And that doesn't feel good to you because there's a lot of great books out there and you don't want to miss a bunch because you're not looking.
- [22:18]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Exactly. Exactly.
- [22:20]
Anne Bogle
Okay.
- [22:21]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
That's why I've come to you, Ann.
- [22:26]
Anne Bogle
All right, we can work with this. Olivia, what I remember you saying is you have friends, you have other readers in your life who love these multiple point of view novels, and often they don't work out for you. I want to hear about, like, what is the attraction? Or maybe it's like the magnetism, what keeps drawing you back, but also what's not working.
- [22:55]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right. Right. I think what ends up being my stumbling block with multi POV novels is that oftentimes the voices all sound the same to me. Or if that sounds very harsh, it's not that they sound the same, but maybe they have different problems and they have different ways of seeing the world, but the voice itself ends up kind of sounding the same. And I. I don't know what to think about that. Maybe I'm just very. For whatever reason, just very kind of picky about that. But I'll kind of notice that the sentences are sort of similar length or the rhythm of the thoughts is sort of similar, or now I'm just getting very technical, but I don't know how else to explain it. Or they'll just be kind of similar characters. And I think, gosh, was that on purpose? You know, because maybe the author is trying to point out similarities between multiple characters in their books, and that would be fine, but I. But it doesn't seem obvious enough anyways. That's where I get tripped up. I get distracted by how they don't feel like really unique people sometimes.
- [24:21]
Anne Bogle
Okay, so if the distinctiveness is what you enjoy, then that's what you want to find, Right? Okay, Well, I don't know if we can do that, but we can certainly try.
- [24:34]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I feel, like, so picky. Yeah. Over here.
- [24:37]
Anne Bogle
But no, no, don't apologize for identifying what you'd love to find in your Reading Life Clarity is helpful. It sounds like you got some.
- [24:45]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah, I just. I'm really honing in there.
- [24:48]
Anne Bogle
Okay, so let's talk about your books.
- [24:50]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Fantastic readers.
- [24:53]
Anne Bogle
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- [26:49]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yay. Okay, I'm excited.
- [26:51]
Anne Bogle
Okay, what's the first book you love?
- [26:54]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
The first book I love is Play It As It Lays by Joan Didion. I first read this book in college and I fell in love with the voice. Mariah, not Maria. She's very clear about is really going through it. It's not entirely clear what's wrong, what happened, why she's always driving on the freeway. But it kind of doesn't matter because her the sentences are just so sharp. They're like a knife through the heart. And her observations are kind of so dry. And the air is so dry and the humor is so dry. And it's Los Angeles. It's all happening in Los Angeles. And it's very. It's very L. A. So, yeah, I guess just broad strokes. She is this actress who is married to, I believe, a director. And she's kind of losing some of her prestige or some of her cachet. She has a daughter who is ill. And it's kind of never defined exactly what's going on with the daughter, but she's not able to be with her. And then she's ultimately institutionalized as well. So she's telling the story kind of in retrospect as to how she ended up where she is. And everybody's very upset with her, but you don't quite understand why.
- [28:31]
Anne Bogle
And how did this end on your favorites list?
- [28:34]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I was so impressed with the writing. I mean, it's Joan Diddy. And I don't really need to, you know, I don't need to say, you know, she's a really great writer. I think going back to the voice, the character was so unique and her way of speaking was so unique and her. The things that she observed in kind of her day to day life amongst these people that were so inauthentic. You know, it's Hollywood. But her voice is so authentic. And so you have that kind of juxtaposition right from the beginning. So you're just. You're rooting for her because you think she's the only real one there is, even though she's not very easy to like necessarily. But you're rooting for her anyways.
- [29:25]
Anne Bogle
I've not read this one, but I just finished the new nonfiction book by Alyssa Wilkinson called We Tell Ourselves Stories about Joan Didion. That's specifically about her years and her influence upon and by way of Hollywood. So this was discussed.
- [29:41]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Incredible.
- [29:42]
Anne Bogle
It's on my list.
- [29:43]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yes. I have to read one. That sounds amazing. Yeah, I love pretty much everything that she does.
- [29:51]
Anne Bogle
Okay, play it as a lace. What's the second book you love? Olivia?
- [29:56]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
The End of the Story by Lydia Davis. Lydia Davis is also someone that I was introduced to in college, but through her short fiction. And it wasn't until much later that I read her. I think it's her only novel that she's written. She's much more known for being this kind of experimental writer. She writes these micro fiction pieces that some of them are just a paragraph long, some of Them are a bit longer than that. She also writes a lot of essays and she's a translator and does a lot of different things. But I think this is a very underappreciated novel of hers or work part of her work because, yeah, I think it. Actually, she develops a lot of her ideas that she's exploring in other places in this novel. But yeah, basically it's about this woman who has a brief affair with a younger man whose. A graduate student at a university where she's a professor. He's not her student, but that's. Yeah, that's how they know each other and they break up and she kind of becomes obsessed with him. Not a scary way, but I. I guess in. In that way that I think. I think of this as kind of a sub genre of fiction, or what we might call women's fiction, but, you know, the obsession novel. Kind of like I'm a fan by Sheena Patel or something in that vein. But she's trying to figure out why she's so obsessed with this man and why it didn't work out. And the whole time she kind of realizes that he's not that special, and yet there she is, just totally rocked by this breakup. So she's trying to figure out what's going on, and it's really fascinating. Again, you're right in her head and you're going through it all with her. Every phone call, every glimpse, every sighting from across the green or what have you. And it's all so painful. And I think it gave me permission to think about these things and talk about them and write about them in a different way. So for that also, I appreciate this book.
- [32:39]
Anne Bogle
All right, that is helpful, especially noting the obsession. Olivia, what's the third book you love?
- [32:48]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Okay, so the third book I loved is a more recent read. It's Colored Television by Danzy Senna. And this is one that I heard about on the podcast, and I think it was in one of your guides, if I'm not mistaken.
- [33:08]
Anne Bogle
It was.
- [33:09]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Oh, my gosh, I loved it. I felt like Jane, the protagonist, kind of floated up out of nowhere and just grabbed my hand and said, listen, writing novels is terrible and it's okay to want stuff. And for whatever reason, I think I just needed to hear that at that particular moment in my life. But also what's happening in the book is she's struggling through her second novel, I believe, and it's just. It's not going well. And she is just finding that being a novelist is totally at odds with domestic life. She's a mother, she's a wife, and she's just feeling like a bad mother and disconnected from her partner. And she's at the same time feeling very lost and worried about her finances. So, yeah, everything is going pretty poorly. And yet her sense of humor, I mean, her sense of humor about things is incredible. Just the way that she is able to observe how ridiculous Los Angeles is. I just realized two of these books take place in la. I don't know what that's about, but it's the. Again. Yeah. And Hollywood is also involved. How strange. I don't think of myself as someone who's that interested in Hollywood, but it's again, that feeling that she's the only authentic one in the room and she's of kind, kind of seeing through everybody, but at the same time, she's being quite inauthentic herself because she's trying to kind of weasel her way in there and, you know, it's not going to turn out well. And just the way that she sees race, the way that she sees class and all of these different things that are happening in her world, I just. I found it so refreshing, so fascinating. Not unlike her. Her first novel, too, was just also really interesting in that way. And I thought I couldn't like this novel better, but I think I did even like it better than Caucasia. Yeah, just really good, really good stuff.
- [35:34]
Anne Bogle
And we really get the. I mean, you didn't say satire, but we get the. Like a Serbic. Yes, the little, Little bit biting. Okay, I see it. Olivia, tell me about a book that was not a good fit for you, and I'd love to hear why as well.
- [35:54]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
All right, well, I don't think it's going to come as a surprise that I've chosen a multi POV novel for. For this one. And it's perfect. It's the God of the woods by Liz Moore. And I can already just hear everyone listening to this being like, what are you talking about? And that's why I feel strange. I do. That's why I've come to you. To be fixed, to be healed. Because everybody, everybody loves this. Hang on.
- [36:23]
Anne Bogle
It didn't work for you. That's neutral. Let's hear why. It's not what you hope for.
- [36:28]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Okay. I think. Yeah. And I should say I liked it. I just. I wanted to love it or I wanted to see what everybody else saw in it, I guess.
- [36:37]
Anne Bogle
Tell me about your reading experience. What were you hoping for? I mean, I believe from your submission that the problem here is the Mismatch between what you were hoping it would be and what it actually was. So what were you hoping your reading experience would be like? And then what was it actually like for you?
- [36:51]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Well, everybody said, you know, okay, yes, there's a mystery, and it's kind of, you know, there's a. There's a missing person, et cetera, et cetera. And there's an old, you know, crime of the past and these things. But, you know. But it's very literary, and it's very smart and interesting, and it was smart and interesting, but I guess for me, there was a few things that rubbed me the wrong way. There. There was a. And I don't. I wouldn't give anything away, but there's a few things I just didn't feel were very realistic. At the end, you find out that there's an adult who made a decision. And this is an adult that's, you know, very much presented as in all other ways, like a very sound person with good judgment. But they make a decision that no adult would ever make, no smart adult would ever make. And that bothered me a lot. And then also, I think that it was. For me, there was that feeling that not all the voices were different enough. I would say the exception was Tracy, the friend. The friend of the girl who goes missing. I thought Tracy was very funny and very much, you know, a teenage girl who's insecure, who's a child of divorce. I saw Tracy, and I felt like she made total sense, and her. What she had to say made sense and was consistent. But the detective and the camp counselor, they kind of blended together for me. They didn't really seem like two very distinct people. And then. Yeah, the other voices just didn't really pop for me.
- [38:41]
Anne Bogle
Okay, so to summarize and also, maybe, like, build on and flatly reduce what you said, please. Liz Moore had a distinctive voice in this story, and also, you'd been hoping that her characters would have their own individual, distinctive voices, either in addition, or instead. I'm not sure which.
- [39:01]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right. Because you're saying that Liz Moore was the voice throughout.
- [39:07]
Anne Bogle
Yeah. You felt like you were reading her voice.
- [39:11]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah. Right.
- [39:13]
Anne Bogle
And you wanted to feel like you were reading Louise's voice.
- [39:16]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Exactly. Or, you know, the mother.
- [39:17]
Anne Bogle
And then the investigator's voice.
- [39:19]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
The invest. Exactly. Yeah.
- [39:20]
Anne Bogle
And then the girl's voice.
- [39:21]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right, exactly.
- [39:23]
Anne Bogle
And can you tell it's been a while, so we can't remember character names.
- [39:26]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I know. This is how it goes. Yeah. Or the. The kind of crazy guy. The escapees voice, you know, he. I Thought he did have a different voice. I'm not going to say he didn't have his own voice, but, I mean, for the person that he is, he. I mean, he's a pretty crazy person. You'd think you'd have a pretty crazy voice.
- [39:52]
Anne Bogle
All right, we're going to keep sussing this out. Olivia, what have you been reading lately?
- [39:56]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Well, Sorrow and Bliss, I already mentioned by Meg Mason. I also read Babel recently by RF Kuang. I'm currently rereading Beloved by Toni Morrison and also reading the Katlam book that I referenced before. Vermout Si barboots, which means vermouths and bearded men by Magda Mingit. Great voice, Great voice.
- [40:27]
Anne Bogle
And how are those working for you?
- [40:28]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Really good. Yeah. Yeah. The vermouth I barbud is just very much told from the perspective of a woman who's dating in Barcelona. And it's. It's very, very on the nose. Very, very funny. Very great. Also great descriptions of food. Yeah, and I love that as well. Babble was a little bit outside of my, you know, what I would normally read, but I really liked it. Yeah, I thought it was very much just the perfect metaphor for colonialism. I feel like that's when I like to read kind of magical realism or fantasy is when they take a really important issue and kind of think this is the only way to really show all that's going on here is to kind of take it into a different universe. So, yeah, I really. I liked it. I liked it a lot. And then Beloved, oh, my gosh. I'm rereading it just to understand how it works, because I still don't understand how she's that good, how she just kind of tells the story of this horrible tragedy, this intergenerational trauma and all these things that happen, but all just through these, like, very casual kind of asides between people who are just getting through their day.
- [42:02]
Anne Bogle
All right, so we know what you're looking for, and that is ideally multiple point of view novels with distinctive character voices. Am I getting that right?
- [42:14]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yes.
- [42:15]
Anne Bogle
Okay. Anything you want to add to that? Anything useful you've maybe realized so far that we should put into the pot?
- [42:30]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
No, I think. Yeah, I feel like it's already starting to percolate, but I'd say let's keep it. Keep it simple. Keep it to that main quandary.
- [42:41]
C
This Friday, Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan are back to switch things up in Disney's Freakier Friday Toy and G. Yes, it's an absolute riot. And the only movie that can be.
- [42:51]
Anne Bogle
Described as so much weirder than the last time. What last time?
- [42:55]
C
It's the frequel.
- [42:56]
Anne Bogle
You ready?
- [42:57]
C
We've been waiting for.
- [42:58]
Anne Bogle
That absolutely. Slays what deeply I, out of touch old person came up with that.
- [43:03]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
You did.
- [43:03]
C
Wow. Don't miss the comedy event of the summer for all ages. Disney's Freakier Friday, in theaters this Friday. Get tickets now. Rated pg. Parental guidance suggested.
- [43:11]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Close your eyes, exhale. Feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today.
- [43:19]
Anne Bogle
Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe.
- [43:28]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Oh, sorry.
- [43:29]
Anne Bogle
I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.
- [43:39]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
1-800-Contacts.
- [43:42]
Anne Bogle
Let's recap, Olivia. The books you loved were Play It As It Lays by Joan Didion, the End of the Story by Lydia Davis, and Colored Television by Danzie Senna. The God of the woods by Liz Moore was not for you.
- [43:54]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
You.
- [43:55]
Anne Bogle
And you've been reading a handful of varied novels lately that are working for you but are also not the specific thing that you're looking for. Right? So I love that you said that your picker was pretty good and your four current and recent reads are. Are underlining that. Like, yeah, that's working. But this has been a sticking point. Okay. I also want to say that I keep jotting little notes about books I think might work great for you that also I think you could find for yourself. Like, if you've not read Emily Austin, she sounds up your alley. Or Waiky Wang. Or have you read the French author Maud Ventura? Ooh, no, I have her new book, Make Me Famous. Very voicey. All about obsession.
- [44:42]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Cool.
- [44:42]
Anne Bogle
Obsession with fame and becoming famous. You are in this woman's head is an experience. I'm not saying it's a nice place to be.
- [44:49]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Perfect. That's where I want to be.
- [44:51]
Anne Bogle
You may find it an interesting place to be.
- [44:54]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Absolutely. Oh, that sounds great.
- [44:56]
Anne Bogle
Kids run the show by the French author Delphine Devon. I hope I'm getting that right. Came out a couple years ago. Also written by. I mean, it's not written by. It's written by Delphine Devon. But from the first person point of view of. Wait a. Wait a second. This is a multiple POV story.
- [45:20]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Oh, my gosh.
- [45:21]
Anne Bogle
Oh, okay, let's start here. Okay. So those are some books that I think you may enjoy that are not what you're looking for. But now I'm wondering about this French novel about an influencer.
- [45:34]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Ooh.
- [45:35]
Anne Bogle
So this is a psychological thriller, and it's not that woman having a bad day kind of novel. But it was Ma Ventura that brought me here. As you heard, one of the main characters is this really. She's quite insufferable French influencer who has used her children as characters on her YouTube show to become wealthy and famous, and it's their entire life. So we are in her head. But also, when this influencer's child disappears while playing outside their fancy Parisian apartment, the mom is sure it's because of the family's social media fame. And it gets lots of attention from the police, including the investigator, who has a very like, I can picture the office I created for her in my head, like, in the shadow of Sainte Chappelle on the eel. And we hear from her point of view as well. If the influencer and the investigator sound the same on the page, we have a problem. And it's Delphine de Vigan. I said her name wrong initially, but the novel runs from the year 2000 to about the 2000-30s, like it foresees into the future. And it's really doing something, hopefully not too far afield of what you've said you enjoyed. It's taking a big topic like, what does our thoughtless consumption. Endless, insatiable consumption. What impact does that have on ourselves and especially on our children?
- [47:08]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Wow. No, that sounds fascinating.
- [47:11]
Anne Bogle
Okay, kids, run the show by Delphine de Fagan, translated from the French. And that's a Europa title for those of you whose ears would perk up at the mention of that publisher. I know it has some ardent fans.
- [47:24]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Oh, yeah.
- [47:25]
Anne Bogle
Now. Oh, did I say Death Valley by Melissa Broder. My. My eyes just lit on that on my notepad.
- [47:31]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
You didn't. I've read it and loved it. Love, love Melissa Broder.
- [47:35]
Anne Bogle
Okay, another first person, quirky. Don't really know what's coming, but interested in finding out.
- [47:42]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. The Pisces.
- [47:44]
Anne Bogle
I've not read that one.
- [47:45]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Could have been on this list. Yeah.
- [47:47]
Anne Bogle
Okay, this is an oldie, but I think it's maybe a side step from what you've enjoyed in the past. Okay, I'm just delaying your reaction. Have you read Fates and Furies by Lauren Groff?
- [48:02]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Oh, my gosh. Okay. I thought that you would bring this up. I thought.
- [48:05]
Anne Bogle
I didn't. I just thought of it like Four minutes ago.
- [48:08]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Okay. No, as you should. And I thought, she's gonna suggest Fates and Furies. And the thing is, I haven't read it, and here's my problem, man, but I think I should. Yeah. I have a. I am very sensitive to spoilers. And this, I know, has kind of a big twist, and somebody spoiled it for me, and it's been hard for me to pick it up, but I think it is exactly what I've been asking for. Possibly.
- [48:41]
Anne Bogle
Okay. I think Matilda is your girl.
- [48:43]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right.
- [48:44]
Anne Bogle
Okay, so let's tell the readers. We won't tell them the spoiler, but we'll describe it and so they can hear why it perhaps is a good fit for you. I definitely, definitely hear the resistance, especially if you want that, like, thrill of the reveal on your own. And I think I know the basic gist of what you're referring to, but I'm not exactly sure. I don't know if that gives you confidence, but, like, what I'm thinking you might be referring to is quite vague.
- [49:09]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right. Okay. Yeah, you might be right. I think I'm probably just being. Yeah. Overly spoiler sensitive. But you can. You can ask my friends. They've spoiled things for me that they're like, how is that a spoiler? And I'm like, you've ruined. You've ruined the movie.
- [49:28]
Anne Bogle
Here's the thing about a good book or a good film. Look, this is not. This is not me saying, be glad it was spoiled for you. I'm not glad for you. But when we know the arc of the story, we notice things we wouldn't otherwise on the first reading, viewing whatever it is.
- [49:49]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
You're absolutely right. I think that's very true. And that's why. I mean. And I love rereading for that reason. So I'm contradicting myself right there. If I love rereading, then what's my problem?
- [49:58]
Anne Bogle
It can be complicated.
- [49:59]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
It is complicated.
- [50:00]
Anne Bogle
We're good.
- [50:01]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
It is complicated, isn't it?
- [50:02]
Anne Bogle
Also, we've heard people say, oh, I wish I could read that again for the first time, you know, because I want that experience of learning whatever it is.
- [50:08]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
You'll never have that. Okay, so what my understanding of the book is is that you hear about. You hear about things from the husband, and you're in his point of view, and then it switches either halfway through or more than halfway through, and then the wife takes over, and nothing is as what the husband said. Nothing is what it seems.
- [50:33]
Anne Bogle
Does that feel like a spoiler to you?
- [50:34]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yes, I guess it does. Because I just think the whole time I'm going to be like, well, you know, he's full of it, but he's.
- [50:44]
Anne Bogle
Not full of it. Exactly.
- [50:46]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Okay, okay.
- [50:48]
Anne Bogle
He's a narcissist living his own delusional dream world.
- [50:51]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right, right, right.
- [50:52]
Anne Bogle
Relating the world as he thinks he sees it. You know how you were saying that there's a character who is mentally unwell in one of these books you're reading? You thought his voice should sound like he's mentally unwell.
- [51:02]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah.
- [51:03]
Anne Bogle
So lotto the husband is telling you. Well, you know, actually, I read this book when it came out. So it's been 10 years. Memory may or may not serve here, but, but, but, but we're gonna be bold. We're gonna be bold and go with, as I recall, he's telling you the world as he perceives it.
- [51:22]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Okay, Right.
- [51:24]
Anne Bogle
So he's married to his faithful, loving, supportive, somewhat quiet wife, always by his side, supporting his work as a playwright. They work together, but really he's the one in the limelight. And then when we get to know her better at the. I believe it is past halfway when the perspectives switch, we find out who she's her own person in a way we did not know.
- [51:55]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Okay.
- [51:55]
Anne Bogle
And she is cynical and calculating and her humor is a little bit of. A little droll. And it does make you question everything as one would if you were hearing two sides of a story.
- [52:13]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Right. And see, I think that I feel like what you just said about hearing two sides of the story, I feel like that's what people love about multi POV novels. And that's what I want to love. I mean, I think that's fascinating. And so when it. When it does it well, then that could be really cool. So, yeah, I think I've got to check that out. And it's also funny because I think I've been waiting. I didn't realize it had come out 10 years ago. I've been waiting 10 years to forget what I heard, and I can't. Apparently, I'm never going to forget it, so I might as well just read it.
- [52:51]
Anne Bogle
Okay, look, this again, is not an argument for you wish you shouldn't wish you didn't know that you feel how you feel at the end.
- [53:02]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Thanks for validating me.
- [53:03]
Anne Bogle
That doesn't change the fact that I bet the book cover says first he tells you his story and then she tells you hers.
- [53:08]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Oh, absolutely. I never read the back. Never read the back. No, I do, I do. I read like halfway through the back and then I read the first page. But I. I try to. I try to get a sense from. From the book whether I'm gonna like it. I. I find that. Yeah, the back gives away way too much.
- [53:28]
Anne Bogle
Okay, Olivia, you already know about this book, but maybe to refresh your memory and fill in our listeners, or maybe you don't know this at all, but Fates and Furies is based on, like, pure Greek tragedy. It's not a retelling, but Greek mythology is, like, seeping through the story in many ways. Latto is a playwright. Many of his plays are based on mythology. Art types and characters feature in the story. For those of you who enjoy reading, for it's not quite Easter eggs, but if you love spotting a good illusion, they are everywhere. That would make this fascinating to talk about in a book club.
- [54:04]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah.
- [54:04]
Anne Bogle
Perfect for anyone who loves to geek out over symbolism and literary references. Like, there's just buckets full here.
- [54:10]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Very nice, Olivia.
- [54:12]
Anne Bogle
That was Fates and Furies by Lauren Groff. What about Trust by Ernan Diaz? Have you read that?
- [54:19]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I haven't. I don't think. Gosh, but it really rings a bell.
- [54:25]
Anne Bogle
This came out a few years ago. This is literary, historical fiction that is a book within a book within a book. And there's mythology here. Not of the Greek sort we were just talking about, but the making of a man as he wants to be mythologized. Quotes, quotes. Mythologized by a hired biographer. I hope I'm getting the details right. It's been a few years. And then we get to the real story behind the myth, and then the real story behind that myth. The character at the center here is Benjamin Rask. It said, after the Wall street crash of 1929, this man and his wife flourished even though many people were wiped out. And in 1937, there's a character in the book, his name is Bonds, who published this story detailing their privileged upbringing, excessive lifestyle, and at what cost they acquired their fortune. But then we find out that might not be the whole story, or maybe it's not quite the right story. But what I want you to know about this book is it's structured in four parts. You have a novel, then a draft of an autobiography, then a memoir by the biographer, and then you have diary excerpts.
- [55:53]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Fascinating.
- [55:54]
Anne Bogle
And every time you turn to a new character, you're like, oh, what's this gonna be like? This brings me to the audiobook. I listened to this one on audio. It's narrated by four distinct voices that I think underlines the distinction between the four characters, but also they're in four different formats. Novel, autobiography, draft feels different. Memoir by the biographer feels different. Diary excerpts feel different. But I'm wondering about audio for you because you said something in your subject about the tone of voice always feels the same. And I've really been thinking about when I'm reading a book, I'm the one reading myself the book effectively. And so I can only differentiate the voices as they're differentiated on the page, insofar as I am able to do so in my brain as a reader. But I wonder if audio could maybe give you a little extra emphasis, a little extra oomph to distinguish the voices in a multiple POV novel.
- [56:58]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I love that. I think that's such a good point. I'd never thought of that.
- [57:02]
Anne Bogle
You know, maybe it's a bust. Maybe you never listen to audio, but maybe. Maybe it would help.
- [57:07]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah, and I'd like to more, actually, because I always enjoy it when I do. And even if it's, you know, one person reading but who's really good at doing the different characters, I always enjoy that a lot. So, yeah, that would be really cool. I bet.
- [57:24]
Anne Bogle
Now, the complaint I'm gonna head to what I just said, the complaint on some audiobooks is, oh, the narrator made every character sound the same. And that wouldn't help you any, but I know that on Fates and Furies there are two distinct narrators for the two distinct chunks of the book. And in Trust, there's a distinct narrator for each chunk of the book. And they. That's so that they sound different. Like it feels very experiential in that sense. So if you want to experience different characters, maybe that's one more sensory way that you can experience different characters.
- [58:01]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah, that's so smart.
- [58:03]
Anne Bogle
Well, that conversation didn't take us where I thought it would. How are you feeling?
- [58:07]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I'm feeling great. I'm feeling invigorated. And, yeah, love the surprises. Where did you think it was going to take us?
- [58:17]
Anne Bogle
Wherever it was going to be. It was not going to start with Kids Run the Show.
- [58:20]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Oh, yeah.
- [58:22]
Anne Bogle
Of the books we talked about today, they were Kids Run the Show by Delphine de Vagon, Fates and Furies by Lauren Groff and Trust by Erin Ahn. DS Olivia. What do you think? What might you read next?
- [58:35]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
I am gonna read them all, I'm sure. I think I'm gonna start with kids from the show.
- [58:43]
Anne Bogle
I'm excited to hear it. I'm very curious to hear what you think.
- [58:47]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Yeah, it sounds like it's gonna be really interesting and that the perspectives are gonna be very different than what I've read before. And also, yeah, whole idea of consumerism and influencers. It's all interesting to me. I guess this is something I learned about myself too. Is that kind of I'm interested in those Hollywood perspectives. I feel like this is kind of adjacent to that. Maybe I'm sort of surprised, but it really caught my attention.
- [59:23]
Anne Bogle
That sounds worth noticing to me. Yeah, I'm glad you took that away. Olivia, thank you so much for talking books with me today. I hope you find something you love as a result.
- [59:31]
Olivia Haber Greenwood
Thank you, Ann. Thanks so much for having me. This was great.
- [59:39]
Anne Bogle
Hey readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Olivia and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Olivia at her website and check out the full list of titles we talked about today. Get that information and more in our show notes at what Should I read next? Podcast.com follow our show on Instagram at what Should I Read Next? Where we share updates on each week's new episode and other bookish happenings. Keep in touch by joining our email list. We send out show updates, upcoming event news, freshly dropped merch, and more in our free missives from what Should I read next HQ sign up at what should I read next podcast.com newsletter and please make sure you're following us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. When you leave a rating or review that makes such a big difference, it's such a helpful way of supporting our show, those five star ratings and reviews especially. But if you're short on time, we'd love it if you'd make sure you're subscribed or following us so that each new episode automatically downloads into your podcast feed. This small, simple act makes a big difference in things that our network and advertisers really care about. And it makes a tangible difference in our ability to keep doing what we do at no cost to you. Thank you so much in advance and thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? Is created each week by Executive Producer Will Bogle, Media Production Specialist Holly Wilkachevski, Social Media Manager and Editor Lee Kramer, Community Coordinator Bridget Mistlehorn, Community Manager Shannon Malone and our whole team at what Should I Read Next And MMD hq, plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Reiner Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading everyone.