B (2:55)

Oh yeah, I have.

A (2:57)

I did not prepare her in advance for this.

C (2:59)

Always glad.

B (3:00)

I mean, it's probably like you favorite is a category. So this is my favorite at the moment because we're going to talk about some nerdy fun today. So I love the nerdy classes that we've had. Things like how to set your reading intentions, things like a great conversation about great books. I might mention a couple of others throughout this conversation that have impacted my own reading life, but I love to get nerdy with classes.

A (3:23)

Ooh, I'm glad to hear it. Okay, I'm gonna go for a tried and true favorite, the Reading this Week forum. Every Sunday we kick it off. And by we I mean one of our members had the idea and now it's a tradition. But every week, whoever wants to shares what they've been reading that week and y', all, our members are smart and fun and funny and well read. And their little one sentence to a paragraph or two commentary about what they're reading could keep me in books until the end of time. But they also give me the information I need to decide what I'm going to choose to read next. For more from Ginger and more book club fun, join us at modernmrsdarcy.com Club readers I love finding the perfect items for my spring and early summer wardrobe, especially pieces that feel easy to wear while also bringing polish to my outfit. Quince always seems to have what I'm looking for. Quince's shop is full of pieces that feel as good as they look, made from premium materials like 100% European linen and organic cotton. And because everything they sell is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands, you'll get quality you can count on at a price you will love. Recently I've been reaching for my embroidered cotton ruffle collar short sleeve blouse which I love so much. I have it in two colors, black and white. It's at once extremely comfortable and polished with a rounded embroidered collar and delicate puff sleeves. It also comes in a long sleeve version and I wouldn't be sad if quints added a few more colors or patterns. In the future, refresh your everyday with luxury you will actually use. Head to quince.com readnext for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com readnext for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com readnext readers sometimes it can be hard to keep track of all the various subscriptions, auto renewals and monthly payments. And lately I've been trying to keep a close eye on where my money goes each month. That's why I value Mint Mobile's approach to wireless service, which offers great savings compared to the traditional wireless providers. With Mint Mobile you're not paying endless fees, surcharges and taxes. You'll just get premium wireless service starting at 15 bucks a month, no long term contracts and no hassle. All of Mint Mobile's plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. I'm always happy to find a good deal on a service I need, so next time I make the switch, I'll be looking at Mint Mobile. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans@mintmobile.com readnext that's mintmobile.com readnext upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to 15 bucks a month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Readers Today's guest recently completed a classics reading project, and now she really wants to keep up that momentum while also bringing more non classics back into her reading life. This sounded so fun, so intriguing, and I couldn't help but notice that both Cheryl Drury's tastes and her recent focus on the classics make me think of my friend and teammate, Ginger Horton. As we mentioned above, Ginger is our modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club Community Manager, and while she and I do have a nice wide space in our overlapping Venn diagram, Ginger has recently been immersed in the classics due to her current enrollment in a Great Books Graduate study program. So for Ginger, it's not all classics all the time, just mostly classics most of the time these days. That's why Ginger seemed like exactly the right reader to bring along for this conversation with Cheryl. Cheryl hails from Charleston, South Carolina, and while she's always been a reader, she told us that she never really dabbled much in classics or Great Books until 18 months ago when she embarked on a challenge to read through a year long list of more than 100 influential books. Starting with Plato and finishing with David Foster Wallace, the project energized Cheryl's reading life. But now she's not quite sure where to go in her approach to reading. Cheryl shares many reading similarities with Ginger. And I cannot wait to hear Ginger's ideas and offer my own for Cheryl's reading quest. Today we will talk about how Cheryl may retain some of the structure from her classics project because that served her well, but also where she can have more flexibility to follow where her reading whimsy takes her. Plus, we'll offer some title ideas that hopefully will feel like just the right bridge between what Cheryl's been reading lately and what she'd love more of in the months ahead. Let's get to it. Ginger and Cheryl, welcome to the show.

B (8:15)

Well, I am so excited to be here in this capacity. I am excited and nervous. And Ann, I am impressed that you do this week after week because while I am thrilled to talk books at any time, it's daunting, I think, not to recommend three books but to limit yourself to recommending free books.

A (8:34)

Well, you may notice our super secret spreadsheet available to our patrons has a lot of slashes in it where there's three books in the spot on the spreadsheet where one book was designed to go and then there's three of those columns for recommendations for each episode. It's a lot. And I still get nervous every time because what if I can't think of the books? I'll remember tomorrow when I'm walking the dog and then I'll email the guest. That's what happens. Cheryl, we're glad you're here.

C (9:00)

Thank you so much. It's really fun. And Ginger, I'm so glad to hear you're nervous because I am too. So that's great.

A (9:06)

What I like to tell all our guests is if we could work this out across time, space and just logistics of talking and drinking coffee on mic at the same time. I wish we could just do this at my local coffee shop. We'd just be three readers around the table talking books, we would not be nervous a bit. Except maybe when we first walked in the door and had to wave and go, hi, it's me. Are you Ann? That would be the only awkward part. And then we just have a wonderful conversation.

B (9:34)

Well, if we're making requests as though as much as I love coffee in Louisville, can we meet in Charleston, Cheryl, because that is one of my favorite cities. My husband and I lived there for a few years, and I have a really fond place in my heart for Charleston.

C (9:48)

Well, you should. It's awesome here. We love it. It really is.

B (9:51)

Lots of good bookstores, too. Yes.

A (9:54)

Well, Cheryl, tell us more. We have already learned that Charleston is near and dear to your heart, and we really want to give readers a glimpse of what the life of our guests is like.

C (10:05)

Well, live in Charleston. We moved here just a few years ago, and so we are still, you know, falling in love with the city. My husband and I live here together. You know, there's all the restaurants and the beautiful parks and beaches and history. So that's a lot of what we do while we live here. Of course, I read. I needlepoint, learning to play mahjong, like half the country right now, I think. And then we travel a lot. We have four young adult children and they're scattered everywhere from here to Japan. And so no one ever tells you how busy young adult children keep you. Thankfully. It's very fun. And so between that and then, we own a large sailboat that we spend time on. Between our kids and our sailboat, we are also traveling a lot. So that's pretty much my life.

A (10:52)

That sounds lovely, Cheryl. Tell us about your reading life.

C (10:56)

I have always thought of myself as a reader, and I think the other people in my family did, too. When my grandmother needle pointed a Christmas stocking for me, she put a little bookworm on my stocking. So I've always been a reader. But through high school and college, I got a technical education. I have an engineering degree and I was very math oriented. I like to read, but my English class experiences weren't great. I didn't fall in love with any books when I was in school. But even though I like to read. And then when I went to college, I hope y' all are sitting down. I got through Georgia Tech without taking an English class. Just crazy. So anyway, reading as I when I started working was kind of an escape from the numbers and an escape from, you know, daily work life. And then as my kids were born, I became a stay at home mom and I kept reading. And it was just another way to be in a different world for a little bit and still that escape and an ability to maybe learn something about somewhere else. But I didn't have a background in great books and there were a couple of times that I tried and it didn't. I always felt like I wasn't quite getting it. In particular, I read the Divine Comedy and loved it. Before we went to on a trip to Italy and I really loved it. But I had this feeling that I was missing something when I came to it because I didn't know all of these backstories that are in it. And it just kind of sat there. And then I had also read Gentleman in Moscow and it sent me down. I was reading Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and really, really enjoyed them, but that little Russian unit stopped. And I really didn't quite know how to satisfy that itch of learning great books until I came across a reading list by a man named Ted Joa. And he. I've been reading his work for a while and he offered a year long immersive humanities course that started in Plato. And I thought, you know what? This is my chance to maybe get a hold of all of these things and try to. Try to get a framework for a big picture. And so I started reading it. And that's been my reading life for the last 52 weeks, actually.

A (13:16)

I love the metaphor you shared in your submission about beginning to read the classics. It might just have been unique to the Russians, but do you remember what it was that you could share with us?

B (13:27)

Yes.

C (13:28)

I felt like this is exactly how I felt. Even with the Divine Comedy when I was reading the Russians and anything that was supposedly a great book. I felt like I was coming into a movie about a half hour late. And, you know, I could understand like where the plot started from where I got there, but I felt like I was missing something. And when I came across Ted's list, it was like I'd found the rewind button. And all of a sudden I was able to maybe go back to the beginning, you know, with Plato and start at the beginning and kind of get a big picture idea of what was really going on. And that, in fact, did happen. I'm really grateful.

A (14:08)

Yeah, well, you may have just begun to answer the question that I was formulating, which was, I think a lot of readers would have been like, guess this isn't for me, or, you know, that that shit passed me by. I'm wondering what ignited that streak of perseverance. Or maybe you just found the list and saw the solution to the problem you hadn't been able to articulate.

C (14:29)

Well, it was a little bit of that, but I think I knew I. Well, one of my sons was very influential. He's a classics major from Uchicago, masters from Uchicago, and a philosophy undergrad, Philosophy and math. So great combo. And he would tell me about the books he was reading and sometimes pass them on to me. But I was like, this is too much. I cannot understand this. And I finally realized these books have endured for a long time because somebody can read them. Why not me? And when I found the list, Ted had put these in an order that seemed approachable, and I could handle it.

A (15:07)

Yeah, Cheryl, I'm so curious to hear. Now, I imagine that everything you learned in all your takeaways could fill many books or a whole podcast series of your own. But I'm wondering just the nugget or two you find yourself reaching for most when people go, wait, you did? What was this about your Great Books project?

C (15:29)

It's a great privilege to get to know people from across thousands of years who invite you into their lives. It's an enormous privilege. And who am I to say that I'm not going to take full advantage of that? I've gotten to know a man who watched the Greek soldiers defend their country against Persia. And I've gotten to know a woman who had a wry eye for couples dynamics in England in It's Jane Austen. And I've gotten to know a man who was a slave, who held onto his humanity while he was a slave. So much so that when he escaped, he was able to explain what slavery does, not just to this enslaved person, but to the people doing the enslaving. These things are amazing, and they're all just sitting there, and I can take advantage of that. That's huge. That's huge. You know, I can tell you another thing. I learned patience, like, with myself. When I don't understand something, I know how to go back and I can figure it out. I can slow down or I can find somebody to explain it to me. And I learned patience with the author because I quit wanting the author to tell me the story I wanted to hear. And I was able to let the author tell me the story they want to tell at their pace. I had gotten into a bad habit of just wanting to read for plot and always, what happens, what happens? And I realized that I was missing out on some beautiful characters and some beautiful people if I would just sit and let the story unfold the way the author wanted to tell it. So I was. I became more patient, I think, about

B (17:28)

what one of our book club authors said in the title of his book, that by reading the classics, we are able to break bread with the dead. And I don't think that was unique to him. I think he was quoting a classical writer whose name has escaped me. But I think that's amazing that we can converse not Just with the people that we know, and not just with the people that are writing books in our time, but with all of humanity. It's one of the things that I love about reading classics.

C (17:54)

You know, it's one of those things, you know, in your head, but if you experience it, like, over and over again, like I did, every time I'd go back and read Plato or I read the Odyssey, and you meet these people where they are and get to know them, it's just over and over again, it becomes very clear what you're doing.

B (18:14)

It's.

C (18:14)

It's amazing. What a gift.

B (18:17)

One of the things that always strikes me when I read a classic is this can sound very heady, and it is. It's beautiful. I love it. I think we're the same in that way, Cheryl. But one of the things that always strikes me is people are people, humans are humans. I'm. I thrill when there is this little snippet of human nature that I think, oh, yeah, I saw that last week with the guy on the bus beside me on TikTok. You know, here in my modern city, people are the same throughout history. And so it's always so fun to discover how human nature changes, but how much it stays the same. And in that way, they are so accessible.

C (18:51)

I totally agree with you. Like, it's been amazing to see, to meet these people, and yet they could be sitting, like you said, beside me on the bus. People just don't change. And it's so fun to get to understand that. I don't mean to sound so heady, because this is actually really about my heart, but these things happen because you just decide to pick up something that maybe is a little bit out of your wheelhouse. It's amazing what it can do to your heart. Take it out and stomp it all over at times. Yeah.

A (19:25)

Cheryl, in hearing what your project has meant to you, we know that the project is over. The reading project never ends. But it sounds like you went from being on a road where you could see the stops ahead of you very clearly, and then the road ended. Would you speak to us from that moment? I mean, I imagine there's a lot of freedom, but also other emotions.

C (19:55)

Well, for a while, I thought that the road ended in my mind. It was like coming to a door. But what I realized was that this reading project was just bringing me to the door so I could open it and go through. So I don't think of this as a road that's ended. I'm actually standing at an intersection with 45 different ways I could go, and maybe I'll circle back and get another one later. But right now I'm kind of sitting pondering, which one of these do I go down next? And I'm very excited about that. It's opening this door, and I get to step through. And I have this. The only way I can think of it is I have this scaffolding of what I worked so hard to learn. And now I've got. As I walk through the door, I'm bringing all that with me. And I get to hang the next things. I know how to. I know where to put them. And they're not just going to sit randomly. I've got places where I can, like, oh, this guy that I'm meeting in this book. I know what. I know what that's like. And this guy also had that. Go on, and I'll be able to start connecting things better. But, boy, I was really sad when I got to about week 50, because I thought, what's going to happen? What's going to happen? And when I finished week 52, I realized that's when I realized it was a door, not a dead end. And I'm super excited about that.

A (21:18)

Oh, the road continues. Now you have multiple routes to an indeterminate destination.

C (21:24)

Yes.

A (21:24)

Although maybe you envision the destination. I don't know. How do you envision where you stand?

C (21:30)

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be nerdy, but there's the Last lines of C.S. lewis is the last battle.

B (21:36)

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

C (21:38)

C.S. lewis, the last battle. The last of his Of Narnia series. And he talked about how they had thought that everything that had happened was only the preparation. And as they stood at the edge, they were at the true Narnia, but ready to have the true adventures. And it was only just beginning. And that's how I feel.

A (22:02)

I love it. All right, how about we hear the books you brought to the show and we hear about what kind of adventures you'll be embarking on next. And then Ginger and I don't know, I kind of feel like, Ginger, you don't need me to butt in with any recommendations, but if I can't help myself, then maybe we'll tag team you, Cheryl.

B (22:20)

But we could probably give her another 52. Like the Ann and Ginger list. Danger, danger.

C (22:28)

I mean, honestly, I do feel like I could read another 52 equally valid books and it would be awesome. Don't do that yet.

B (22:35)

No, we'll try to refrain from a few fewer than that. Yeah.

C (22:38)

Okay.

A (22:39)

But I propose we start with your books.

C (22:41)

Okay.

A (22:42)

Are you on board?

C (22:43)

I'm on board.

A (22:44)

Okay. Oh, I didn't mean to use a sailing metaphor for you. Not that I would not. That's totally fine, but doesn't feel inappropriate. Readers, you'll usually find me listening to audiobooks while I'm doing my makeup, but that doesn't mean it's something I want to linger over. I like to keep it simple so I can move on with my day and Merit Beauty makes that easy while still delivering the fresh, polished look. I prefer Merit Features, a collection of clean, thoughtfully curated essentials designed to help you look put together in minutes. Their products do more with less and are designs you can easily swipe on and blend with your fingers. No fancy tools or multi step process needed. I especially love their lipsticks and shade slick tinted lip oils and their minimalist complexion stick does double duty as both foundation and concealer when I want a bit more coverage. Plus, anytime I'm putting products on my face, it's great to know that they're vegan, cruelty free and made with nourishing skincare ingredients. Right now, Merit Beauty is offering our listeners their signature Makeup bag with your first order at meritbeauty.com that's M E R I T beauty.com to get your free signature makeup bag with your first order. Meritbeauty.com readers it's easy to focus on the big pieces when you're creating an outdoor space you hope to love, but we've often found that the small things are what really make a difference in making a space feel like our own. We've spent time over the past few years making our outdoor lounge area and yard feel comfortable and inviting, but we're still filling in gaps. Some of those gaps are about making things pretty and hospitable, like adding more string lights and solar tabletop lamps around our patio area. But some are more strictly functional, like adding another motion sensor light by the recycling bins so I don't stumble in the dark. Wayfair has tons of options for every possible outdoor lighting need you might have, and if you're looking for those bigger options, Wayfair has you covered too, with grills, outdoor rugs, patio storage and more. Wayfair has over 20 million verified 5 star reviews so you can read what real customers thought about the Wayfair items they used to spruce up their homes. Get prepped for patio season for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home. Cheryl, you do know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one that you don't, and what you've been reading lately. And then we will assess out where you'd like to head next. How did you choose these today?

C (25:06)

One is a longtime favorite, and I've already said it. The other two were books that really stuck with me that I unexpectedly loved, loved during this project. So the first one is Don Quixote, which was a total surprise to me. I had never read it before, and it's written in the 1600s. My only knowledge of Don Quixote until I had read this book. There's a Picasso pen and ink drawing, and it's very scribbly, and I know that everybody has seen it. And it's Don Quixote on his donkey with Sancho Panza with him. And it's just like a scribble, and it's black and white and like, I thought, ooh, it's going to be a yucky book. And it's like, I'm not going to like it. And I open it up and it is delightful. It's so. It's so funny. And Cervantes is making fun of his main character, but he's doing it gently. And there's these funny, fun adventures. And Cervantes has so much to say about reading in that book. It's hilarious. At one point, some of Don Quixote's neighbors get. Get worried about him, and they. They think he's having delusions. And so they decide his problem is too many books. So they go over and burn some of his books to help him out, you know, and so it's just like. It's just a charming, charming book. And I didn't expect that, and I didn't expect how much Cervantes had to say about people in that book at all. I just. The whole thing was unexpected and absolutely fun.

A (26:40)

I'm happy to hear it.

B (26:42)

What I was trying not to tell Cheryl before we started recording is that I have never been able to make it through Don Quixote. My husband loves this book. We tried to have a spouse book club at one point years and years ago, and I was hoping when I saw this was the first book you loved, that you would somehow be able to talk me into giving it another try. Here is my theory on why it didn't work for me the last time. Because to hear you talk about how fun it is, I think I was Approaching this like a serious work of literature. Do you hear the capitalization in my voice there? And I don't know that I was giving it its due. And maybe I'm a better reader now. Maybe coming to it at a different place would inspire me to give it a try. But I loved hearing you talk about it, so maybe this is my urge to go for it again.

C (27:23)

I think you should, because I came at this book midway through the project, and. And so I was a better reader at spotting funny things. But there's plenty of humor in the reading list that I did, and so I was better at spotting the funny parts and knowing when he's kind of tongue in cheek. So I was totally ready for it on this book. So I think you should try it again.

B (27:44)

I'm excited to hear that.

A (27:46)

Ooh, I can't wait to hear how this works out.

C (27:48)

Me too.

A (27:49)

Cheryl, what's the second book you love?

C (27:51)

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. This one was a total shocker for me. It was another book that we were only supposed to read the first couple of chapters as part of the reading project, and I loved it so much that I read the whole thing, and I was supposed to read it in high school. And the only memory of it from high school for me is, do y' all know what Cliff Notes were?

B (28:15)

Oh, yeah.

C (28:16)

Okay. My only memory of this book is using the Cliff Notes in high school. And so it was a total shock again, that I loved this book so much. I loved Huck's honesty. I think part of it for me is now I have raised two boys, and I opened this book, and in chapter one, I saw a kid I know, and I just wanted every good thing for him. So falling in love with that character was a surprise. But then also his honesty in letting us see how he grows, letting us see how he changes. Especially in regard to his opinion of his friend Jim, who becomes his friend through the course of the story. And just Puck's honesty and his forthrightness and everything that he thinks, it's so genuine. I just loved it.

B (29:11)

I'm always here for a coming of age novel, and I don't know that there is a better hallmark. And again, just with the humor, Mark Twain can really move you. Clearly. And also, he's so funny. And, yeah, I think we do sometimes a service to our young people to hand them these great books, and hopefully they can form a lot of young minds and hearts. But I also wonder if so many of us would be served better by being handed that book after you've met Your first favorite 6 year old or you have fallen in love the first time for yourself. And I think about that a lot. I, I always tease that I need to make a classics list and then say what age you really read that classic book.

C (29:52)

I totally agree. I think it was Winston Churchill who said that it's a pity to come to a great book too early in life. And so I think about that now that I'm my age. And sometimes I feel like I'm coming too late to them, but at least I came to them.

B (30:09)

Well, here's the reminder. And I don't think this will be the last time I talk about this, but to reread those books because sometimes they'll say one thing to you at 15.

C (30:16)

Yes.

B (30:17)

And something entirely different at 45.

C (30:18)

So totally agree on that. Yes. And a lot of books stand up really well to rereading.

A (30:25)

Cheryl, what's the third book you love?

C (30:28)

Well, it's the book I already mentioned, A Gentleman in Moscow. This is probably my all time favorite book. If there is a person in fiction that I could have dinner with, it would be the Count. I think that Amor Tolles performed a miracle in creating this adventure story in the four walls of the Metropole Hotel. And I just, I love everything about it. I love the side characters. I love the way he told the story. I love the Count. I love the, the foreignness of the setting. Gosh, I just, I've. I've probably read that book five or six times. Talk about rereading. And it's up to the point where I can just pull it open and listen or read anywhere. I have it on audio as well, so I can just pop it open and start reading and kind of know where I am. That book always stands up to rereading. And the other part of it that I love and I will be forever grateful for is that it did send me to read some other great books. You know, I read War and Peace because of it and wow, I thought that was going to be absolutely unreadable. And it's this, this series of great love stories and this war story and I had no idea. And then it sent me to read a lot of history and I just, I'm so grateful for that part. But wow, what a story.

A (31:47)

What brought you to this book?

C (31:49)

You, Ann, what should I read next? I think it was either this or the Modern Mrs. Darcy blog. So yeah, I found out about that book from you. And then I've read all of his other books now, so love them.

A (32:05)

It was the first book we read together in modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. Post the initial. Hey, let's try this thing. Summer reading club in September 2016.

B (32:17)

Special place in my heart, too. And I have also read it more than once, and now you're making me want to read it again. It's a great character. Yeah. I truly think this might be one that you mentioned. Two other books that have stood the test of time. I genuinely think people might be reading this 100 years, 200 years, hundreds of years hence.

C (32:36)

I agree, because it offers you such a good window into a world that is gone, hopefully, thankfully. But the characters in there are so memorable. Actually, every time I think of the book, I also think of Misha, his friend. He gives one of the most impassioned speeches in the whole book, and I just. I can tear up even thinking about it. Obviously, it doesn't take a lot to

B (32:59)

tear me up, but good books can do that. Yes.

A (33:03)

Cheryl, did you read this one before or after your deepened adventures with the Russian novelists?

C (33:10)

Oh, no. This is what set off my adventures with the Russians. This was the start of. I called it my Russian rabbit hole.

A (33:18)

Gentlemen, to the Russians. To the 52 books.

C (33:22)

Yeah.

A (33:23)

Whoa. Wow.

B (33:26)

I might have a tiny literary crush on immortals. I don't mind telling the two of you he came to Charleston last year.

C (33:33)

He was awesome.

B (33:35)

Yes. His mind is so, so fine and so clever.

A (33:39)

He came to Louisville, too. It was great.

B (33:41)

You guys, you're killing me.

C (33:43)

I think what's so interesting is he makes. He writes these really great novels that are not alike.

B (33:48)

That's right.

C (33:48)

Like Lincoln highway book.

B (33:53)

I'm making notes here because I had on my list to, you know, to make sure that you had read both that and his short stories. So luckily, you're whittling down my massive list for me. So.

C (34:03)

Good.

B (34:04)

Yeah.

C (34:05)

I think Lincoln highway made my best book of 2024. I try to keep a record of what were the best books, but I haven't been doing that very long.

A (34:14)

Cheryl, perhaps a different headspace now, but tell us about a book that was not right for you, and I'd love to hear your theories as to why it wasn't a fit, not aligned with your taste, poor timing, not what you thought you were getting into. What did you choose?

C (34:29)

I read Dead Wake by Erik Larson. I thought it might be for me, because I think I had read. Didn't he write Devil in the White City? And I liked it. So. Dead Wake is about the sinking of the Lusitania. It's a very sad story. It doesn't need heightened suspense to make it sadder because it's already a huge tragedy. And what he did when he wrote this book is he had you follow closely along with several sets of characters. And then partway through the book, half of them die. And I felt so emotionally manipulated by that that actually I never do this. I threw the book across the room. I know the room I was in, it was next to a fireplace. I thought I might throw it in the fireplace. I was so mad that he would do this and make me like abuse my feelings like that. That was not respectful. And I just thought it was manipulative and that on his part, I was like, I'm done. I don't like sad endings to begin with, but sad endings that are justified. But I felt like this. He had heightened the emotional part of it in order to elicit a feeling from me that I thought was. That was too much of an ask. He had no respect for the reader. On that book at least. Wow, I really came down, didn't I? I don't love a sad ending, but I really don't like to be made to fall in love with a character and then kill them off in a really manipulative way.

A (36:08)

Duly noted.

B (36:09)

Do you read much nonfiction? Because I noticed the three books you love happen to be novels. So what's your relationship with nonfiction?

C (36:17)

I like nonfiction. I'm actually reading a history right now. Love it. Some of my favorite books from the year long project were histories. I love memoir. Yeah, I have no problem with nonfiction. I've read a lot of narrative nonfiction and enjoyed it. This just like set me off for a very specific reason. And I was like, okay, well, I don't know that I can know that when I'm starting, but I can sure be on guard for it.

B (36:41)

There you go. Okay, good to know.

A (36:44)

Cheryl, what have you been reading lately?

C (36:46)

A couple of books that were at the tail end of my project. One of the really interesting ones to me was a writer named Susan Sontag and she wrote in like the 70s. She wrote a book called on photography. And so, you know, being a mom, I always had the camera in my hand and I was a horse show mom. And so I got actually very good at taking pictures. And I took a lot of pictures. I was quite good at it. So I had a relationship in my head with photography. But then here comes this woman talking about how photography and memory and reality aren't all the same thing and what does that do to how we think about all of them? So this, it was a really Fun thing to. I had never thought about it before, and now I think that anybody who walks around with a camera in their pocket, which is basically everyone, should read her thoughts about how photographs affect your memory. I was crazy. I also just finished Theo of Golden, which was one very high on my list that so many people had been reading while I was in the midst of my project. And so I didn't have time to read it. So I've just finished it. And one of the most fun parts of that is that, you know, unexpectedly, so many of my friends are also reading that. And it's been really fun to be part of a communal experience. And I did enjoy a lot of the book. And so that's part of. So fun to share in that enjoyment with my friends without even planning it. It wasn't like we were reading it for a book club. We were just reading it.

B (38:20)

Oh, I had three friends one day text me to see if I had read this at one point, maybe months back. But it was definitely in the Zeitgeist. So I'm glad you got to be a part of that.

C (38:30)

Oh, my gosh. You know, I hadn't been a part of anything like that for at least a year because I'd been doing my own thing over here. And so that was really, really fun. And then one of the last books I've just finished is Gabriel Garcia Marquez's A Hundred Years of Solitude. It was another one that we had to read, like, a couple of chapters for in the project. And I love Magical Realism. I love it. And apparently I didn't know this. This book kind of was one of the early ones in the 20th century that was Magical Realism. And so the project introduced me to it. And I had tried to read this book maybe 15 or 15 years ago or so, and I couldn't do it. And I think it was that patience problem that I had with not letting an author tell me his story. And now I've had developed patience. And this book is so dreamlike and a little wacky. And I was willing to let it be those things this time instead of being like, well, this doesn't make sense. That's crazy. And which I know you have to also suspend your disbelief for Magical Realism, but I didn't get impatient with there's 20 characters and there's four first names in the book, and it's really funny. So there's four aurellos. And it's just. You have to keep people straight. But I kind of put all that aside and just enjoyed the book and I really did love it.

B (39:54)

If you can read the Russians, I think you can handle Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

C (40:01)

Yeah. But yeah, so that I've just finished reading those. I've actually currently reading a history right now because I'm getting ready to go to England in a couple months. So I'm doing a little vacation reading, pre vacation reading.

A (40:13)

That sounds lovely, Cheryl. Thank you for telling us about your books. As we move into putting books on your radar to potentially read next, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

C (40:27)

I have never done what I just did, this intense project. I loved it and I loved growing as a reader. But it's a lot. And so I'm trying to figure out a way to grow and yet still have time to do fun books. I mean, I like a spy novel or For Vacation or the O of Golden. It was fun to have time to read those. I'm still wanting to do these projects or oriented around different things and read intentionally. I think that's the way I want to think of it. Read intentionally. But I also need to build some fun books in. And so I'm trying to figure out a way to have that combination. I've kind of, like I said we're going to Northern England this summer. And so I've kind of got a little project already started for myself. But I don't have a fun English book in there, not even Jane Austen. So that kind of thing. I'm trying to figure out how to plug some more modern things in and just allow some time. So I'm really not a grind. But I feel like I am sometimes after all this.

A (41:36)

Has your project changed the idea of what kinds of books are entertaining to

C (41:39)

you a million percent.

A (41:41)

Would you say more about that?

C (41:42)

Yes. So for one thing, I read across genres now. I can read a play really easily now. I've read a lot of Greek drama and I loved it. I loved Shakespeare. It changed me for reading, you know, different kinds of literature. Like I said, I. I have a patience to read Gabriel Garcia Marquez's. His book is so dreamlike. And yet, you know, I also like to read things that are more plot driven. I do find myself really lingering on characters. I find that I fall in love with characters so much now. And I did a little bit before. Obviously I was in love with the Count, don't tell my husband. And I read poetry now. Who am I who reads? I read poetry. That's crazy. And I'm just willing to pick up and try a lot more things now. I hope that makes sense. I like Narrative nonfiction a lot. But I could read a history instead of reading narrative nonfiction.

A (42:37)

Now, equally happily, has your project changed your idea of what kinds of lighter books appeal to you?

C (42:48)

I'm afraid so. I think it might have made me pickier.

A (42:51)

I'm just looking for information.

C (42:53)

Yeah.

B (42:53)

So we're good with that.

A (42:55)

I mean, you can feel about it however you want, but your answer's not going to disappoint us.

C (42:59)

No.

A (42:59)

Would you say more about that?

C (43:01)

I've encountered some great stories and some great storytellers in the past year. And so my patience with less good storytellers is not. That might be the one place I'm less patient is if a story isn't being told as well. And I'm not as happy with it. I had a friend who said, oh, you should read this Colleen Hoover novel. A bunch of friends are reading it. I thought, okay, oh, that is not for me. It's too much in a lot of ways. And it's also just not that interesting. And on the other hand, I like Leon Moriarty a lot. And what Alice Forgot is still one of my favorite books because the premise is so fun and I think she executed it really well. So a lot of popular fiction is frustrating to me. And this is the other thing that I noticed about myself this year, is that I have a great regard for a person as an individual and I don't like things to be reduced to stereotypes at all. And I didn't realize I felt that strongly about it until this project where I was reading about individuals and reading across time, especially reading before about the 1700s, realized how deeply I love that, that view of a person as an individual and not as part of a group. And so I really don't want to read things that have agendas. And it feels like sometimes it's easy to fall into that. And I'm sure people have reasons for writing it. It's just not. I don't want to read that one

B (44:40)

thing that I struggle with my love of classics and an increasing desire to read the best. And that could be across any genre. Like I want to read. I don't read a lot of, say, fantasy. It's just not my go to comfort genre. But I want to read the two or three best, best ones that my fantasy loving friends have read throughout the year or a romance novel or some of the genres that just don't happen to be in my personal comfort zone. And so I don't always know how to balance that, that I keep standards without snobbery so that you know, it's a really hard thing that you do encounter when you are trying to go after the best, but yet you don't want to. As I think our team member Lee always reminds us, don't yuck someone else's yum. It's just not my yummy.

C (45:24)

No, I'm not trying to. It's not for me. I didn't, you know, and I like how you said that about I'm not. I don't want to be a snob. I just. I want to read the best. And, you know, life is short. You only get so much time to read so many books, and so I want to read the really good ones.

B (45:42)

I think you put that beautifully.

A (45:44)

And I did notice you say twice regarding Dead Wake, and then we were chatting before we hit record that how a story is told and how the author unspools the information and how it's structured, like, these things really matter to you.

C (46:01)

They do.

A (46:01)

It's not just like, tell me a good story to take me away. There's more than that that you're looking for, which is true for many readers.

C (46:09)

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's true. And that's been true for a long time, though I'd read Deadwake when it first came out. And I also read World War Z, which is fiction. Right. But it's written as a memoir. And so, you know, the guy writing it survives because he's writing it. And so knowing that I could comfortably read the whole book without being worried the whole time that he was going to die because he didn't, because he was writing. And so I actually really, really loved World War Z. I thought it was so fun and it didn't bother me at all, really, being written as a memoir. I think if it had been written, like, spooling it out as a story, I couldn't have read it because I would have been worried the whole time that he would have died. I don't want my heartstrings to be plucked unnecessarily.

A (47:01)

Ooh. I'm thinking of how when Will and I both read in the same season Into Thin Air by Jon Krakauer.

C (47:09)

Uh huh.

A (47:10)

Have you read that?

C (47:11)

Oh, yeah.

A (47:11)

Okay. So I was just thinking that'd be an amazing adventure story for your list.

C (47:16)

But I read it on an airplane. We were like, it was a really long airplane ride and it was freezing cold on the airplane because sometimes they can be cold. I'm reading this book about a cold adventure and it's so cold. I will never forget that experience.

A (47:30)

Well, the book is dedicated to those who died on the mountain that season.

B (47:35)

Yes.

A (47:36)

And I was constantly flipping back and forth to the dedication because I wanted to know the fates of the people I was reading about. Will didn't do it that way.

C (47:47)

I'm pretty sure I noticed that too, because I have a good memory of reading that book. I enjoyed the experience of it. Now that you say that, that would be part of why I didn't mind it, because I knew people were going to die. But it was okay.

A (48:04)

Okay, we will keep all this in mind. So we're looking for lighter but still really well written, some things that aren't terribly challenging that you can still get lost in, but you have so much available to you. You want books that you'll feel really good about having chosen to spend your time with.

C (48:29)

Yes. The other part of it is I'm happy to read classic adjacent or like the fan fiction. Kind of like A Thousand Acres was King Lear and which I loved A Thousand Acres and Brothers K was crazy good. I would absolutely be happy to try the like if it's really well written. Some of the takeoffs on Shakespeare or Dickens or any of these classic type books.

A (48:58)

Okay, so Cheryl, you loved Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes, the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain, and A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Toles. Not for you was Dead Wake by Eric Larson, and lately you've read On Photography by Susan Sontag, the Year of golden by Alan Levi, and 100 Years of Solitude by Gabrielle Garcia Marquez. And you're looking for something different after your Great Books year Readers. Our family is always on the go and there are six of us, so it's a lot to manage. Syncing multiple schedules is tricky but important, so I'm excited to try out Skylight Calendar hours. Just arrived in the mail and I can't wait to see how it works for our busy family. Skylight Calendar was built to bring families together by keeping everyone's calendar to do list and reminders all in one easy to reference place. It's an all in one digital smart calendar that syncs seamlessly with whatever you're already using Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more. You can customize your views for daily, weekly and monthly planning and color code each family member's activities for quick and easy reference. If you've got younger kids or are working on building healthy routines, Skylight Calendar makes it fun and rewarding to keep track of tasks like brushing teeth or completing homework. Skylight Calendar has a 100% happiness guarantee. If in four months you're not thrilled with your purchase, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners 30 bucks off their 15 inch calendars by going to myskylight.com readnext go to myskylight.com readNext for 30 bucks off your 15 inch calendar. That is my S K Y L I G H T.com readnext it's time

D (50:53)

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A (51:23)

ginger Horton what are you thinking?

B (51:26)

I'm so excited to do the honors. My mind is going in a million directions, but I think I have the three for you. I'm going to start off and give you the two that I'm more sure of and then I'm going to give you a little choose your own adventure. But the way I speak structured this in my mind. I love your metaphors about going down the road. The way that my mind usually thinks about books that add to each other in conversation are hooks. So I remember the very first time in this great books program that I'm in that I came across a reference in another writer's work to clear and distinct which is such a Descartes or a Cartesian as I've learned phrase that I thought he's explicitly referencing so and so and so. I always think that now I can put that pot on that hook, then I can fill that pot with more stuff. So that's the way I'm thinking of it. So each one of these will be a hook that you can then hang a lot of other things from. And so any of these books could become a next mini project for you. So that's what I am endeavoring to do for you today. But all of them also stand completely on their own. You could read it as a one time thing, get excited about something else and leave it on the shelf. But the first one I have to recommend is kind of a cheat. True to my maximalist tendencies, the book that I am thinking of actually has the word or the number 1000 in it. And it is 1000 books to read before you die by James Mustick, who has indeed been on the what should I read next podcast. Is this one you're familiar with, Cheryl?

C (52:53)

Yes.

B (52:54)

Okay. What's your experience with it? Have you read it? Is it sitting on your coffee table?

C (52:57)

No, I haven't read it. I. I thought a thousand books, dude. I need to just, like, start one.

B (53:03)

Yes, yes.

C (53:04)

It was a little overwhelming. I tried to, like. Yeah, but yeah, no, I. I think at this point, I'm more competent at something like this.

B (53:11)

Well, here's why. I actually really like this for you. So it's got a couple things going for it. Number one, you could absolutely sit it on your coffee table and read one entry or three entries at a time, say, over the course of a year, which is exactly what I did. I read, you know, however many pages, I divided it out, read it over the course of a year, highlighted the ones that sounded good to me, and then started in on reading some of those. And I'm still in that process, and I think I will be for the rest of my life before I die. That's his only. That's his only qualification there. But what else I really love about it is listening to you talk about books. I think you're fantastic at something over on book club that we call pithy book talk. And I think James is also so good at pithy book talk. He is such a good judge of literature himself that you really trust his taste. If a book sounds good, it probably is good. I also think that just reading about books, being exposed to books, I won't get to all a thousand of these. And you still feel like you have had a little bit of an exposure with this book. And so it is a little bit of a masterclass in what is in culture. Something else I really like about this is not just the way he talks about books and the options for. For you, of course, but also that he has excellent taste that spans old. Old classics and very modern and a lot in between. So he was telling me about books that probably are out of print. They might be on the shelf of my dad or my grandparents, maybe. They were really popular in 1967. And there's just maybe less of a chance that I would have come across that because I would have been not alive yet or quite small. And so he has this sort of middle ground that I find really refreshing. And they are some of the favorite books that I would have never come across. I think about oranges by James McPhee has been one of my favorite reading experiences. I discovered that through 1000 books to read before you die. So I think this could be not only just a really fun read for you, it doesn't have to be done in one sitting. But tell me what you think about that.

C (55:10)

Actually, I really love it. And I think I love it now. I think that I would have felt overwhelmed a year ago, but now that I have a better confidence in my own reading and a better background, I think that I actually am very interested in that now. And it's fun to read what other people think about the books that you like or don't like. I don't like it. I didn't like every book I read this year. Okay.

B (55:33)

Of course. Right, well. And I wouldn't recommend this just to anyone because it's not the kind of book that most people would want to sit and read cover to cover. But I think for you it might really be something. One thing I meant to ask you before we started is are you the kind of person that reads one book at a time or do you have a few in process?

C (55:51)

Really depends on what the books are. But this one sounds like I could do it a little bit at a time while I'm reading other things because it's not like a narrative arc.

B (55:58)

Yes, yes, exactly. I think that is one key part. If this is going to bog you down, then maybe go along to one of the others on my list.

C (56:05)

Yeah, no, I think that sounds really cool, Cheryl.

A (56:09)

I'm glad you're not overwhelmed by the 1000 books, but I also think you may enjoy browsing his index and the back not in one sitting. It's too many for most readers. And just there's little checkboxes where you can check off in order the books you've already read and I think you may really perhaps enjoy, especially after your year long project, just seeing what you've read.

C (56:33)

I agree. I took a picture of them all. But yeah, I think that that would be kind of nice to see that too. I agree.

B (56:40)

And lots of mini project lists there because he groups some of those topics. So. Yeah, yeah, thanks for reminding me of that.

C (56:47)

Yeah, I like that. Because you know, if you're coming at this like I am and you're just kind of trying to like get books together, you can only. You only know about what you know about. And so this book sounds like it's super helpful for that. Thank you.

A (56:59)

Yeah. Discovery and sifting.

C (57:01)

Yes.

B (57:03)

Okay, well, the second book that I have in mind might sort of go along with Your English visit. But my question is, have you read. This is not the book, but this is the setup. Have you read 84 Charring Crossroad?

C (57:17)

I think I did.

B (57:18)

It's by Helene Hanf, and she is a writer living in New York who writes, a bookstore owner living in London, England. And she's writing to request one particular book that was a little hard to track down. The two of them begin a correspondence and.

C (57:35)

Okay, I haven't read this. It sounds really cool.

B (57:37)

Okay, friendship ensues. Highly recommended. But the one I want to recommend specifically to you is called Q's Legacy. And this was sort of her follow up to 84 Char and Crossroad, which you could read in one sitting. I have no doubt it's a really slim little book of letters that might be a good prequel here. But Q's Legacy is essentially the backstory about why she wrote requesting that book to begin with. Hugh is a humanities teacher, a British humanities teacher called Arthur Quiller Couch. And he had sort of essentially, I think, what it sounds like to me, Ted Joa's humanities course for her time. You know, maybe when she was living, he would have been the Ted back then. And so she sets out to take his course, essentially, and, you know, begins a correspondence with these friends. They write back and forth about books. And so Q's Legacy is really kind of the literary memoir version of her syllabus. And I find it delightful. Whenever someone says they've read 84 Charing Crossroad, the next sentence I ask is, but have you read Q's Legacy? I love it even more. I really do. And I think it's good, nerdy fun. And it will also send you down a project if you so wish.

C (58:46)

Oh, I love that. Yeah, that sounds so fun. Thank you.

B (58:49)

It's also just a delightful read because Helene Hanf is such a funny writer. You mentioned that you loved humor. She's real funny, quite witty.

C (58:57)

When did she write it?

B (58:58)

Oh, that is a great question. I believe that would have probably been in the 80s. It would have been a follow up to 84 char and crossroad, which I think was written probably more in the 60s or 70s.

C (59:10)

Okay, yeah, that sounds really cool.

B (59:13)

But it has that old feel. She feels like she could be one of those, you know, Hollywood gumptiony actresses. She's very bantery. And.

C (59:21)

Yeah, so I found in this project that I just finished that I really, really enjoyed some of the mid 20th century writers. Shocking. And it was so. But it was just really fun to read them. And so this Sounds like a great addition. Thank you.

B (59:36)

It's also quite short. Okay, for my last pick, I'm going to make you do a little decision here because my mind is going in a couple of different directions. Would you like a modern literary novel written based on a classic play, or would you like. Actually both of these are based on a play? Or would you like a. Another modern literary novel, but a little bit more of a gritty, mysterious element based on a very different kind of play, but it could send you off on another syllabus type series?

C (60:10)

I think I want the gritty.

B (60:11)

Okay.

C (60:12)

Okay.

B (60:13)

That is what I find to be a little known Margaret Atwood title called Hagseed. This was part of the Hogarth Shakespeare series where different famous writers rewrote some of the Shakespearean plays. And this one is based on the Tempest, which is one of my favorite Shakespearean plays.

C (60:30)

Yeah, I just read it.

B (60:31)

Oh, good.

C (60:32)

Earlier this year.

B (60:33)

Oh, fun. That'll be fresh in your mind. Yes. So this is the story of a man who is trying to revive a prison theater program, and he is sort of confronting his past. There is that same kind of betrayal involved. Yeah, it's a little, you know, the setting is a prison. It is Shakespeare's the Tempest. It is a little grittier, but I think what it could do is it could send you down that path a lot. In that Hogarth Shakespeare series were really, really fine novels and written by excellent writers like Margaret Atwood. But I feel like when people talk about Margaret Atwood, they talk about the Handmaid's Tale. Rightly so, you know, some of her other more well known books. But I don't hear people talking about Hag Seed that often. But I really loved this one.

C (61:16)

Oh, that sounds great. Yeah, I'm very interested in reading that.

A (61:19)

Thank you.

B (61:21)

So all three of those could really send you down a path of a syllabus in Q's Legacy, another Shakespeare retelling grouping, and then of course, the big tome, A Thousand books, or however many of those you so choose.

C (61:35)

That's fine. No, that sounds really cool and I appreciate your thinking about the big world of books and how you find the right books and that thousand books you should read, you read before you die. That sounds like, very helpful for me. Thank you.

B (61:49)

Well, as Anne usually asks our guests, what do you think you'll read next?

C (61:53)

So I think because of our England trip, I'm going to read Q's legacy and 84 Charing Crossroad. I think that I'm going to read those because that'll blend in really well with that. But so part of my reading going forward after this project, I found I loved Shakespeare. Like loved it. It was the big surprise. And so I am going to be reading one Shakespeare play a month until I finish. And I love the idea not just of the Margaret Atwood novel, but the fact that there's these others. That's very interesting to me. Thank you.

B (62:29)

Give them all a look. Well, good. I'm so excited to hear that.

A (62:33)

We're excited. You're excited. Look, this doesn't even count as one more because if we've already talked about 2. Helene hamp fish, the Duchess of Bloomsbury street, is her book about finally traveling to London to meet the bookseller that she corresponded with and his family and associates in person. And I don't believe she makes it as far north as York, but she does take many a jaunt out to the surrounding London countryside to see the sights while she's there. Nice. The Duchess of Bloomsbury street because that's where her hotel is and someone teases her about how she just holds a quite court. She entertains visitors and dresses up and goes out in the world to be squired around seeing the sights. It's charming.

C (63:12)

Sounds like a great life, actually.

A (63:14)

It does, it does.

B (63:15)

That could be such a fun trilogy because again, they're all quite slim and so you could probably tuck those in your bag and read those on the airplane if you were so inclined.

C (63:23)

Yeah, indeed. That sounds great. Oh, I'm so excited.

A (63:26)

Cheryl, thank you so much for being our guinea pig and for joining us today.

C (63:29)

It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

B (63:32)

And here's the real question. Am I allowed to email you with the eleventy billion more thoughts that I had? Please, please do before they come tumbling out of my mouth. And this podcast is 17 hours long.

C (63:45)

Yes. Because there's no limit on email. So please do.

B (63:47)

I love it.

A (63:49)

And Ginger, thank you for bringing yourself and your book recommendations to the show today.

B (63:54)

This was great fun.

A (63:55)

It's been a pleasure, you two. Thank you so much.

C (63:58)

Thank you.

A (64:04)

Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Cheryl and we would love to hear what you think she may enjoy reading next. Find Cheryl on Substack and other platforms at Crack the Book. We will have all those links in our show notes and that's where we'll also share all the titles we talked about in today's episode. That's at what should I read next? Podcast.com. follow our show on Instagram @whatshouldireadnext and follow along with updates from the MMD Book Club spearheaded by Ginger Horton at MMDBook Club. Join our email list to get updates on new episodes and other happenings at what Should I read next HQ. Sign up at what should I read next? Podcast.com Newsletter. Thank you to Ginger Horton for joining me today and to all of the people who make the show happen every week. What Should I Read Next? Is created by Executive Producer Will Bogle, Media Production Specialist Holly Wilkachevsky, Social Media Manager and Editor Lee Kramer, Community Coordinator Bridget Mistlehorn, Community Manager Shannon Malone, and our whole team at what Should I Read Next? And Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ, plus the audio whizzes at Studio D. Podcast Production readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Reiner Maria Roka said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading everyone.

C (65:21)

Happy reading.