150. Josh Patner | Everything But A Super Model

Summary

Podcast Summary: What We Wore – Episode 150: Josh Pattner | Everything But A Super Model

Release Date: October 1, 2024
Host: Laura Vinroot Poole
Guest: Josh Pattner

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Introduction

In the 150th episode of What We Wore, host Laura Vinroot Poole welcomes fashion industry veteran Josh Pattner. With an illustrious career spanning roles such as fashion journalist, store owner, designer, buyer, and professor, Josh shares his multifaceted journey through the ever-evolving landscape of fashion.

Early Life and First Foray into Fashion (00:00 - 07:00)

Josh Pattner hails from Chicago, specifically the Hyde Park area near the University of Chicago. Contrary to what one might expect, Josh's early interest wasn't sparked by a natural affinity for fashion. At a young age, his fascination lay in costume design.

Josh Pattner (03:20): "I wanted to be a costume designer from... watching television. I fell in love with clothes by watching shows like Green Acres."

Josh's passion manifested through hands-on experiences, such as sewing and creating costumes using remnants from Marshall Fields and materials gifted by his grandmother. These early endeavors laid the foundation for his later career in fashion.

Education at Oberlin and Initial Career Steps (07:00 - 14:00)

Josh pursued his interest in costume design at Oberlin College. Despite a rocky start—initially disliking the campus and feeling out of place—he grew to cherish his time there and forged lasting friendships.

During his college years, Josh secured an internship at the University of Chicago's Court Theater costume shop, where he worked for Tracy Mills. This position exposed him to high-profile figures in the fashion and entertainment industries, including fitting Mary Tyler Moore for a dress.

Josh Pattner (10:17): "On my first day, Mary Tyler Moore was being fitted for a dress. That already blew my mind."

These experiences solidified Josh's commitment to a career in fashion, navigating the challenging environment of the early '80s New York fashion scene amidst the burgeoning AIDS crisis.

Working at Donna Karan: Lessons and Inspirations (14:00 - 19:00)

Josh recounts his tenure at Donna Karan, where he began as a temporary assistant before proving indispensable through his proactive approach. His ability to organize and streamline processes earned him increased responsibilities within the company.

Josh Pattner (16:31): "Never took no for an answer. Absolutely top of the list."

Working under the formidable Donna Karan, Josh learned invaluable lessons in resilience and leadership. He describes Donna as a larger-than-life figure whose glamorous presence was matched by her tenacity and creative vision.

Tula (19:21): "She was larger, larger than life. Incredible."

Despite the rewarding experiences, Josh ultimately parted ways with Donna Karan due to personal and professional differences, but not before absorbing critical skills in design and management.

Launching Tula: Triumphs and Tribulations (19:00 - 31:00)

Josh and his partner embarked on launching their own brand, Tula, a collection renowned for its beauty and craftsmanship. The journey was fraught with financial struggles, creative conflicts, and the pressures of running a small business in a competitive industry.

Josh Pattner (30:08): "What I wore to prom... I made all four dresses of the dates."

The Tula collection became celebrated for its unique designs, though its launch was a roller coaster of emotions and challenges. The collaborative environment with his partner Brian and the intense workload underscored the complexities of sustaining an independent fashion label.

Reflections on the Fashion Industry and Future Plans (31:00 - 38:07)

Josh offers critical insights into the current state of the fashion industry, emphasizing the need for smaller, more sustainable operations to support emerging designers. He critiques the fast-fashion model and represents a poignant call for a return to more thoughtful, artisanal practices.

Josh Pattner (37:51): "Blowing up, obviously, fast fashion. How much does the Dior bag cost? What are people really going to pay? It's all just become a loony bin."

Looking ahead, Josh expresses a desire to continue contributing creatively, hinting at being in the process of writing a book titled "I Remember Fashion". This memoir aims to encapsulate his extensive experiences across different facets of the industry.

Career Reflections and Personal Insights (38:07 - 44:24)

When reflecting on his diverse career, Josh identifies himself fundamentally as a designer. He draws parallels between various roles he has undertaken, all of which center around the creative process of storytelling through fashion.

Josh Pattner (40:34): "I am, I think, at heart, I'm a designer."

Josh acknowledges moments of regret not in actions taken but in opportunities not pursued, such as declining offers from prominent figures due to ego-driven decisions.

Memorable Anecdotes and Personal Stories (44:00 - End)

The conversation culminates in a heartwarming recount of Josh's high school prom experiences, where he designed dresses for his dates. These personal stories highlight his lifelong passion for design and creativity.

Josh Pattner (43:50): "I made all four dresses of the dates... It was a spaghetti strap camisole with a v neck, two pieces, and a long faux skirt."

Conclusion

Josh Pattner's journey through the fashion industry is a testament to versatility, resilience, and unwavering passion. From his humble beginnings in Chicago to his influential role at Donna Karan and the creation of Tula, Josh's story offers profound insights into the intricate workings of fashion and the personal dedication required to thrive within it.

As he continues to reflect on his past and look forward to future endeavors, Josh embodies the spirit of an industry ever in flux, advocating for a return to craftsmanship and meaningful creativity.

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Notable Quotes:

• Josh Pattner (03:20): "I wanted to be a costume designer from... watching television. I fell in love with clothes by watching shows like Green Acres."

• Josh Pattner (10:17): "On my first day, Mary Tyler Moore was being fitted for a dress. That already blew my mind."

• Josh Pattner (16:31): "Never took no for an answer. Absolutely top of the list."

• Josh Pattner (37:51): "Blowing up, obviously, fast fashion. How much does the Dior bag cost? What are people really going to pay? It's all just become a loony bin."

• Josh Pattner (40:34): "I am, I think, at heart, I'm a designer."

• Josh Pattner (43:50): "I made all four dresses of the dates... It was a spaghetti strap camisole with a v neck, two pieces, and a long faux skirt."

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For more information on Capitol, Laura Vinroot Poole, and future guests, follow @shopcapitol and @whatweworepodcast on Instagram.

Transcript

[Laura Vinroopool]

Foreign. I'm Laura Vinroopool of capital, and this is what we wore. Josh Pattner has touched every part of the fashion industry. He's been a fashion journalist, a store owner, a designer, buyer, and even a professor. Josh's story includes creating one of the most coveted brands of the 2000s. Tula, I haven't seen you in, I mean, 15 years maybe, right? Likely could be 20. As I was preparing for this, not that I didn't know it, I've always known it, but it really reminded me that for one, I always adored you. But two, Tula, I mean, I've been doing this almost 30 years, and Tula, from the very beginning to now, is the most beautiful collection and ever in my entire history of doing this business. I mean, and going through the notes and seeing some of those image. Oh, Josh, no, no, by far, not even close. And actually, if you ever have a retrospective, I have some amazing pieces that we could use, and my clients have all of their pieces. Nobody's gotten rid of anything.

[Josh Pattner]

That's incredibly, incredibly lovely to hear.

[Tula]

I can't.

[Josh Pattner]

I'm. You've lost me for the next 45 minutes. I know how to absorb that, especially given the company that.

[Tula]

That you're putting.

[Laura Vinroopool]

We'll get into it. But do you not know that, like, in the context of fashion from. From the past, you know, 50 years, do you not know that it is probably top five of the most beautiful things ever?

[Josh Pattner]

I'm stunned. And what a lovely, incredible thing to say.

[Tula]

No, I'm not aware of that at all.

[Josh Pattner]

What a stunning thing to say. I'm stunned.

[Tula]

I think more that the women who.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Loved it, really loved it, really loved it deeply. Yes.

[Josh Pattner]

And I think of all those connections. I mean, it's so long ago at this point, but I think about all those connections in every aspect of that time. But I don't think of it as something I think. I guess I think of it as a very small niche that some people remember the name of.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Even if they didn't remember the name, they actually remembered the label. Because it also is the most beautiful logo in the history of fashion. I mean, by far.

[Josh Pattner]

Richard Pandisio Design.

[Laura Vinroopool]

It means so beautiful. So can we. Let's start before we get back there. Tell me where you're from, Josh. How did this all start? Where are you from?

[Josh Pattner]

I am from Chicago. I grew up in Hyde park on the south side around the University of Chicago, became the Obamas neighborhood.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Were your parents professors?

[Josh Pattner]

No, my father went to law school there.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Did you have any interest in Fashion as a young person?

[Josh Pattner]

Absolutely not only because I had no idea what fashion was. I was not that little gay kid reading my mother's Vogue because my mother didn't have a right. My mother worked for many music organizations and civic organizations and she was very focused on bringing music into public schools.

[Laura Vinroopool]

What was your first, I guess inkling of fashion?

[Josh Pattner]

Well, yes, it's interesting because what I was interested in from a very, very, very early age was being a costume designer. I wanted to be a costume designer from. I don't remember not wanting to because I watched a lot of television when I was a child. There was the afternoon movie, 3:30 movie and I knew all of those movies backwards, forwards and I knew all of the costume. I knew Gilbert Adrian, I knew Helen Rose, I knew Edith Head. I mean I knew all of those names.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I knew Adrian and Edith had too. And my mother wasn't interested in that. But why, why did we know that? I mean was it. Did we wait till the credits and read and start to research it? Because I don't remember how I knew that either.

[Josh Pattner]

Well, part of it was that I don't think that I entirely knew what it meant.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Right.

[Josh Pattner]

I mean I knew as I was looking at the movie that it was, you know, so stuck I was. That's where I fell in love with clothes was really watching television. Without question the one that really got me. This is what really start now, now that I'm thinking about it really. It was the credit on Green Acres that said Ava Gabor's gowns by Jean Louis but she wasn't really always wearing gown. I mean I like the way that they referred to her entire wardrobe. I mean as a six year old or whatever I was. But that, that mesmerized me. And why, I don't know. I guess because I fell in love with the clothes. So I wanted to understand what it meant. Also those people were a little bit in the. You know, Edith had used to be.

[Laura Vinroopool]

On talk shows, right?

[Josh Pattner]

I used to watch a lot of talk shows. He was such a character I could do Edith had in drag. Actually we look very much alike.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Where did you take this?

[Josh Pattner]

I started sewing things. I was a very crafty kid and I started making things and gluing things and cutting things up. And my grandmother gave me a sewing machine that had been her father in law, long deceased who had been a tailor. He gave me that sewing machine and I taught myself to sew on this old singer. And that's what my life became for a long time. That was probably fifth grade Maybe all I did was come home from school and sew. Things had nothing to do with it. Was all of the active. I made puppets and I had a puppet theater with a friend. And I used to get remnants from the fabric department at Marshall Fields downtown. That was a huge treat to go down there. And my grandmother would also send me boxes of. Send me boxes of crap and old rhinestones. Costume jewelry.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Josh Pattner]

And just things to play with. But it was never about fashion then. I was cutting up my mother's tablecloths and things, and my kindly father suggested that I get an internship at the Court Theater, which was at the University of Chicago, much like the way Harvard has the art. Four or five blocks away from my house on campus. And I got a job in the costume shop. In fact, I wasn't even an intern. I think I got paid like $4.

[Tula]

An hour or something.

[Laura Vinroopool]

How old were you?

[Josh Pattner]

Freshman in high school. I did that for three summers and.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Still loved it and wanted to continue to do that in theater. Or did you move in a different direction?

[Josh Pattner]

Oh, I loved it so much. It was incredible. That was an incredible experience for a lot of different reasons. When I got to college, I went to Oberlin. I was going to be a costume major, in fact.

[Laura Vinroopool]

And did you love Oberlin from the minute you got there?

[Josh Pattner]

I hated it for the minute that I got there. And it took me a minute to settle into it, but once I did, I loved it. And it's still with me and my closest friends are still from Oberlin. But at the very beginning, it was a mess because I was a city kid and I had applied there late, so I didn't. I never saw the campus is my point. We drove down there to unload me and drove right past it. Had to turn around and come back to it.

[Tula]

I mean, I was used to the.

[Josh Pattner]

Imposing University of Chicago, which looks like Oxford.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Exactly.

[Josh Pattner]

I just an urban. I was in. I was a city boy in a state of shock. But once I. Once I loved it, I loved it. And then I started in costuming at the. I mean, I. You know, that was by force direction. Except that I didn't get along with. With the instructor, professor person, because I already worked in a professional costume shop.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Right.

[Josh Pattner]

Three years. And it felt like a home EC class.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Josh Pattner]

But to answer your question, it was in that class, the guy who ran the costume shop, he. He had all these subscriptions to magazines because they were part of. The first time that I saw fashion magazines was in that costume shop because it was part of the costume shop. Library. Because there was a Vogue. There was a W. That's the first.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Time you even considered that that was a direction you could go.

[Josh Pattner]

There was no Vogue in Hyde Park. There was no Vogue. There was no Vogue at the dentist's office, at the pediatrician, at the haircutter, at the newsstand. No.

[Laura Vinroopool]

What was your first thought when you saw it?

[Josh Pattner]

I was bedazzled. It's still with me. It was because of. Well, the whole thing then started because of the model Karen Graham, who was in the Estee Lauder ads, who's from.

[Laura Vinroopool]

North Carolina, by the way.

[Josh Pattner]

Oh, that's right.

[Tula]

I was in love with her.

[Josh Pattner]

And she was showing up the Grand Canal, and she was in a. In a penthouse and Nest. He was the photographer, and he was.

[Tula]

From Chicago, as a matter of fact.

[Josh Pattner]

But I was mesmerized by her. Mesmerized. But if you turn the magazine into the gutter, it would say, gowns by Tracy Mills. So we had an internship. Well, we had a work study is what it was at over. It's called the Great Lakes Colleges Arts association, which was all those small schools, and they maintained a brownstone. Maintained a brownstone in Hell's Kitchen. And they dormed all these kids who came to do the art. You got a semester's worth of credits to do something in the arts in New York. But most of it was what they call the plastic arts, I guess, painting and, you know, traditional arts. I worked for Tracy Mills, who made those clothes.

[Laura Vinroopool]

And what was that like?

[Josh Pattner]

Oh, they blew my marbles. In fact, I believe on my first day there, Mary Tyler Moore was being fitted for a dress. So that already blew my mind.

[Tula]

It was an incredible experience at that point.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Did it seem possible that this could be a path you could take and this could be a career?

[Tula]

Oh, that's.

[Josh Pattner]

That's when I was. Yeah, that's when I was. I was convinced he did a lot.

[Tula]

Of evening wear and what they used.

[Josh Pattner]

To call table talk, which means that your cocktail dress is interesting when you're sitting down. I probably started tracing patterns on dotted paper, or I would run around all over the garment. The last Gas Garment center and.

[Tula]

Incredible.

[Josh Pattner]

All those lofts filled with sewers, tailors. And I remember there was Metropolitan Keller, which was an incredible beat. They did the most incredible beating in.

[Tula]

Athletic because it was fashion, and there.

[Josh Pattner]

Was also Broadway at the end. I designed some little beading patterns that was like. That was my proudest achievement. That was also a very, very intense experience because that was 1983 and I was 1D at the small office, everyone had AIDS.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Did you understand what that meant?

[Tula]

I understood that I was condemned to die, is what I understood.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Jesus.

[Tula]

Yes, it was a very. It was a very. The whole. It was an incredibly impressionable time. 20 years old.

[Laura Vinroopool]

But Josh, did people know what it was and did they talk about it? I mean, they talked about it as aids or what did they. What did they know?

[Tula]

By that time it had been called aids, where people would spell out immunity deficiency. You know, they would. Yes, they called it that. We didn't know. It was a very celibate for me, young man in New York. Frightening. And it was quite graphic. These gents had chaos, which is a bleeding ulcer of the skin. I remember calling my mother and asking if I could touch a pencil or something like. Yes, it was a very heady time, but a very frightening time. I also happened to have lived by Dream Girls and In the. In the Open in the early days of the premiere of Dreamgirls. And all the people in the streets at night was incredible.

[Laura Vinroopool]

So after that semester, you were hooked?

[Tula]

Oh, yes, definitely. I came. I came back to. Graduated. I came back to New York. I got a job in a Japanese restaurant and a suit and a sushi bar. But I think I. As I remember, I got fired and I took some sketch classes at Parsons because I didn't have any of training in any of that. And I wasn't even accosting. I mean, I. I switched to English after. After that I had a meltdown with the other professor with the costume.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Right.

[Tula]

Then. Cousin of a friend of mine. News. Oh. A cousin of a friend of mine.

[Josh Pattner]

Was taking maternity leave and they needed.

[Tula]

Somebody to fill in. And that was at this really weird. I wish I could remember the name of was on Broadway, not on 7th Avenue. So that's a big difference. But whatever it was, I took it. And it was a company that made embellished oversized T shirts.

[Josh Pattner]

It was kind of pre QVC looking.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Okay.

[Tula]

And there was one that had. Remember how Michael Jackson used to wear like a royalty sash and like metals, except it was all bejeweled?

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yes.

[Tula]

And then there was one that was called Couch Potato and it had a bejeweled potato sitting on a couch.

[Laura Vinroopool]

And the whole time you're there you're like, how do I get out of here? Or like, what's the process?

[Tula]

I was revolted by the whole thing. But, you know, it had characters and, you know, I'd seen a lot of movies about people coming to New York, people going to la, to Hollywood, people going to get their dreams in the big city. You know, I was. I was ready to work. I was ready to go, so.

[Laura Vinroopool]

And how did you land at Donna Karan from there?

[Tula]

Well, that's the saying. It was. That was when I was reading women's wear was during market week, let's say, like after the. At the end of the first market week. So. But I saw it in the COVID the debut and the COVID of women's wear with that Robert Lee Morris jewelry and, yes, Maeve a Car hats and those silhouettes that I was. I just thought it was incredible.

[Laura Vinroopool]

In 1984, Josh.

[Tula]

Yeah, it was 84. 84.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Was it as groundbreaking as it. As I remember it? Like, it was. It was. It just absolutely radical and just completely new.

[Tula]

It was worldwide news. That was what's so amazing about it. I just landed on the pot of land and pot of jam. I mean, it was. It was. I worked. I worked 100 hours a day. And. And part of that was because that's the way we worked, because I wasn't being sexual, romantic, anything. I was just a horny kid, except that I was working 100 hours a day. So it didn't really matter. I was on. I was. I was on a. I don't. I don't want to say that didn't really matter. It was a horrible time. But that's a different. That's a different conversation. It was a very confusing experience.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Right.

[Tula]

Bearing friends at that age stays with you for your whole life. Of course, fortunately, I'm still here, and I made other things happen, and I just worked constantly. But it was a fast. It was such a fantastic place to work at that time because it was so exciting.

[Laura Vinroopool]

As you're saying, what was the most important thing you learned from Donna or from that experience?

[Tula]

Never took no for an answer. I mean, absolutely top of the list.

[Laura Vinroopool]

What was your position?

[Tula]

At first, I was hired as a temp for $200 cash a week to dress the models in the showroom during the market and get coffee and. You know what? Answer this. You know, they just need it. There was chaos up there. Chaos, yeah. And they just thought they needed somebody to get through the market. But I made myself indispensable is the point that I'm trying to make.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I tried to.

[Tula]

You know, I tidied things up. I sorted this out. That whole collection, in a very typical Donna style was made overnight. Nothing had a label in it. The samples were all getting lost because they send them out for editorial and nobody, you know, they'd never come back. These original Donna can things and.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Damn.

[Tula]

Yeah, I just went and ordered. I found the production person and I ordered sample labels and had sewn it every. I mean, I didn't ask anybody about it. Yeah, I just sorted it out, I guess, at that. Yes, I was. Even as a temp, I was working for Patty Cohen, legendary Patty Cohen, public relations. She was so impressed, I guess, or relieved that somebody had jumped in there. There was Japanese press, French press, Russian press, every kind of press. Catherine Deneuve, Christian Lacroix, Liza Minnell. I mean, who didn't come in there? It was incredible. That was a lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely time.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Were you missing the design studio? I mean, was PR enough for you at that time? You were learning every single day that.

[Tula]

Was a fork in the road in some ways, because I. I guess I wasn't as committed to design as I thought that I was. I mean, I was sort of so lucky to be there that I, I. I don't know, I was just going with it. But somebody else would not have done that. Somebody else would have gone and been a designer come hell or high water. That wasn't who I was at that juncture.

[Laura Vinroopool]

So you left and you went to bg, to Bergdorf Goodman?

[Tula]

Well, no. Patti fired me and then Donna hired me at the end of the week. I mean, I never left. And then I worked in the design studio for probably another year and a two years maybe, at that point.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah. And tell me what you learned from Donna in the design studio.

[Tula]

I wasn't a designer. I was the manager of everything.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

Which is. Yeah. Quite a predicament. But it was fantastic. It was fantastic. Fantastic, fantastic. Donna was the most inspiring person that ever was. She was a force. What is there left to say?

[Laura Vinroopool]

What was it about her, Josh? What was it about her that was so different from anything you'd seen from anybody?

[Tula]

Well, she was so New York, and New York was still very new for me, but she was. She. I'll never, for as long as I live, forget the first time that I saw her sitting on a cutting table in the back room, all swathed in cashmere. And she had those. She was. She was. She always wore a pompadour, kind of a 40s kind of pompadour. And she had all that jewelry, all that Robert Lee Morris gold shells on both wrists. She was carrying on. Oh, my God. You know, Freddie, you gotta put it on the other side of. I mean, she just. She was larger, larger than life. Incredible. Incredible. And she was so. Oh, my God, she looks so glamorous.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

But she was like. She was like the Jewish Eve Arden, really, because she was so sarcastic and so funny and so. You know how Eve Arden can really land a line. Snappy and glamorous and kind of hard edge. Like, sort of hard at the same time. I mean. Cause Donna would fight. He asked me what I learned about from Donna. I could be on the phone with you for the rest of my life. But one thing I learned was to fight for what you want.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Really?

[Tula]

Yeah. I mean, as a designer, the way that she would fight with what's now called merchandising, but that word didn't exactly exist. She and Julie Stern, who was the president, all time Darman center royalty. I mean, they would go at it about the cashmere order, the sequin order, how many colors she wanted something in. Why it had to be that way. Julie, you don't understand all of that. They would scream at each other.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Where was that conviction from? She knew because she knew the women wearing her clothes, and she knew what they would want or what was. Where did that come from? Because it wasn't from Anne Klein, was it?

[Tula]

Yes. That was just something that she was born with. I mean, I'm sure that she learned a lot of gumption from Anne Klein. How could you not? Yeah, she was like the only woman of power on 7th and. Well, I don't want to say that's completely inaccurate, but, I mean, she was. She was. She was a rare. On the. On the design aspect as a designer. She was one of the only. Anyway. Yes. I think that was just Donna's. That was just New York.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah, that was.

[Tula]

That was where she came from. Her. Her parents were in the garment center. Mother was a pretty known showroom model.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Huh.

[Tula]

Her name was Diamond.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, I love it.

[Tula]

Something like that. Diamond Fast.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, my God, I love that.

[Tula]

I might have made that up. Sounds great.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Let's go with it. I love it.

[Tula]

And her. Yeah, she came from very dashing parents. And a lot of those early collections were based on her parents. The shoulder line of her mother's jackets, the 40s, and that twisted turban. And the pictures of her mother were incredible. And her dad looked like, you know, with a fedora and a silk scarf around his neck. I mean, they were. They were hot stuff. I don't think she knew anything else is what I'm saying.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I love that. So why did you decide to leave at that point?

[Tula]

I got fired.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Second time.

[Tula]

Donna needed to get me out of there for. I mean, that's a whole other long story. I Could tell you, but I don't know how many questions you have. I was being a brat, essentially. I mean, when you asked me what I learned about what I learned from her, there's so many. I mean, I learned how to fit clothes. That's another incredible thing. Nobody could fit clothes. The way to fit clothes that I stood there with her, you know, I handed the pins, you know, how to fit pants, how to fit a shoulder, how to. Why is the skirt hiking? I want it to be this, I want the strip, et cetera. All of those technical things, whether they were by technique or artistry or dressmaking, whatever they were, I learned at the feet of her.

[Laura Vinroopool]

That's extraordinary experience. I mean, and especially at that time.

[Tula]

Incredible. Incredible. I didn't have the same taste, really. And it was kind of getting on her nerves because I would say, put some feathers on it or something. I mean, I was really a brat. Oh. Another thing I learned is one time I had done a little sketch of something and somehow it meant I doodled something on my desk and she passed by it and she took it into the design to the pattern maker. I mean, that was a mind blowing experience also. But I was on later, I was on the ground pinning up the hem of something and I said something about my dress. Oh, that looks like my dress or something, right? And she looked down and she pulled her glasses down her nose and she said, honey, every dress in here is mine.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, wow. Extraordinary.

[Tula]

I just went right back, right back to what she was doing and never held that. She was just a wonderful person to work with. She gave you so much responsibility. She was complimentary. She could be disappointed, but she was, you know, she liked to have a nice time. She was funny. She wasn't. She had no agenda, you know, she just wanted everybody to do their best.

[Laura Vinroopool]

So did it hurt when she let you go?

[Tula]

Well, she was incredibly kind about it because she said, I'll call anybody that you want me to. Who do you want me to call? So she couldn't have been lovelier about it. After I got fired, I said, well, I'd like to. I'd like to really try to design. And I. And I'd like to bring you a port. I'll bring you a portfolio in a month or something. And I sat in the bathtub watching Oliver north. Cause it was so hot outside. And in between, I sketched all the time, which I don't really know how to do. I mean, I'm not an illustrator. I brought it back to her and she cried.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, wow. Josh.

[Tula]

You don't know what a woman is. Because I think, you know, it was quite draggy when I had. I mean, in her mind. Cause I was doing, like, big, zhushy, cocktaily things.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

But she really. She got kind of torn up, like I was part of her family, and I hadn't gotten the message, but she said, I'll call anybody want me to. And she did, I have to say. She called Bob Mackey, she called Carolyn Rome. She called Oscar de la Renta. And I went to see Scsi, and he was the one who gave me a job.

[Laura Vinroopool]

And so how long were you with SCSI?

[Tula]

Oh, probably for 84 days or something like that. I was there for two months, I'd like to say.

[Laura Vinroopool]

What was the opportunity with Bergdorf Goodman? How did that come about?

[Tula]

Well, I went back to Donna Karan, as a matter of fact.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, you did the third time. I love it.

[Tula]

Third time. Because when they opened up dkny, I came back to do the licenses because I could speak. To speak. Because in that studio, they thought of me as the smart one.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Well, you were.

[Tula]

You went like, I wasn't the talent. I wasn't the drawing one. So, yes, I went back. How did the Bergdorf Goodman come about?

[Laura Vinroopool]

What part of the business were you in at Bergdorf?

[Tula]

Women's fashion coordinator.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, wow.

[Tula]

An incredible, incredible, extraordinary opportunity in a way. I still miss it every day.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

62 years old. It was just. It was such a fine place to be. And the exposure of the things that I saw, and the haute couture and the clientele and the purchasing and the. Just all of it. Just the whole way the machine worked was incredible.

[Laura Vinroopool]

And did it come naturally? I mean, was it. Was it a natural fit?

[Tula]

Yes, very much. And I had learned a lot from the gent that I worked for, whose name was Andy Basile. And I had a good relationship with the vendors for the most part. And I loved the work so much and everything that went on in that store and the level of knowledge that people had. All of it.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah. It's a special, really special place.

[Tula]

And I love having the red carpet rolled out for me everywhere I went. I can't say I did. I left berg Orffs in 1992, probably. I was. Oh, I went to Vanity Fair.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, wow.

[Tula]

This has always been a thing with me, in a way. It's why I've never maybe risen up the ladder in certain ways that other people have, because I'm not at the top of any ladder just because I kept moving.

[Laura Vinroopool]

You have literally worked in every single part of the industry.

[Tula]

I always say I've done everything but be a supermodel.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah, I think you have.

[Tula]

I mean, that's sometimes how I feel. Absolutely.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Let's talk about Tula for a minute. I just wanna give you my memory is. And I think it was your apartment. I don't even know, but I remember it was like Brian's apartment. Like a fifth floor walk up Upper west side. Like, it was so not anywhere near anything.

[Tula]

It was as absurd as anything could ever have possibly been. Absurd.

[Laura Vinroopool]

It really was, Josh. I remember just going in that first time and I, like, just nearly crying. Cause I've never seen anything like it in my life.

[Tula]

I need to send you flowers and all kinds of things. I just can't. I mean, you can't.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I. I just hope you know how.

[Tula]

I don't think that I. I don't think I do. I do. And I don't really. And I'll tell you very specifically why. Because it just happened. And this is why I answered your question previously, as I did, which is that I think Tula was really beloved by certain women.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yes.

[Tula]

And I don't think that it went so much beyond that.

[Laura Vinroopool]

But isn't that okay?

[Tula]

Yes, it's fine. It was a lot of work, but it's fine. But that was our. That was our intention, I think, because that's. That was. That was. I think genuinely at the heart of it was a grand affection for women. But just the other day, a fashion blogger with two zillion followers said, ask me a question. And I said, are you ready for a Tula revival? And do you want to know what he said?

[Laura Vinroopool]

What?

[Tula]

He said? No. Why? What could it possibly bring that we don't already have?

[Laura Vinroopool]

Ugh, he doesn't know anything.

[Tula]

And I thought, wow, there you have it.

[Laura Vinroopool]

No, no, not at all. Not at all. Because I do this all day, every day. I look at hundreds and hundreds of collections. There's nothing even halfway approaching what Tula was. What was the hardest part about launching that collection?

[Tula]

Oh, my God.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Other than everything.

[Tula]

Oh, my God. There's so many ways it makes. Starts to make me cry when I think about it. How I don't even know how to answer that question. To believe that I was doing it. That's the honest answer. That is. There it is. It took me a minute, but that is the honest answer. Every day I felt like that. Like the roller coaster.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

The roller coaster was so dramatic and unstable and not mentally healthy. Frightening is the word. I was. I was. I was Frightened that entire time. And I had some good times along the way, but yes, I found it very frightening. Always working while the wheels were falling off. You know, I mean, it was.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Right.

[Tula]

But I guess that's part of the legend, I think, I think it must be. And I do think with perspective, that's something that was initially so beautiful, came out of all that sanity and poverty of financing. That is incredible to me that. That is incredible. I mean, that it bloomed like a rose like that.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, it's, it's, it's her. It's Herculean, really. I mean, it was. People don't understand. It was.

[Tula]

And it was. Trust me, I saw it and I appreciate that. It was Herculean, certain on the part of my partner at that time, Brian, who worked like an ox carrying bolts of fabric up and down. You know, when the train would break down and the. I mean, you just can't imagine how.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Did you know when it was over?

[Tula]

There were some cracks in it from the beginning, but there was a lot of conflict between us about what we were doing and how we were doing it, let's just put it that way, without being long winded about it. In short, I wanted to move more slowly. I just wanted to have a rail of clothes people came to see. And there was a lot of tension about having a show at that point, what we could really accomplish and how many costs and what were we doing. And you know, there was a lot of friction about that. But it happened the way that it happened and that's what it, you know, it brought what it brought, which was. Which was pretty incredible. So there was something at the root of it that was gnawing just between two men. I mean.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

And then close quarters of the most extraordinary kind because the fact the sample room was in his apartment and we lived downtown because my apartment was smaller. But I mean, every day I thought that the police were going to come and throw. I mean, we had three industrial sewing machines in the living room. Well, you saw it on a rug.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I was 100%, yes.

[Tula]

I mean, completely insanity. I mean, the neighbors, all that sewing on top of your head. I don't know. I've never understood it. I've never understood it.

[Laura Vinroopool]

What was the thing you knew about yourself more than anything after leaving that.

[Tula]

Well, as I say, there was conflict between us. There was always the financial stress, which was intense. Then what happened was 9 11. And that was a really fantastic collection that nobody ever saw. It was all based on Malik's set of B photographs. I mean, now you probably couldn't do it now, but it was all African prints. But they had been to. They'd been Tula ized.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh.

[Tula]

And it was. Yeah, it was beautiful. So that happened. And at that moment, we had. That's kind of what I boil it all, that we had different reactions to that and what we could. What we wanted in our lives and what we didn't. He, I think, became more committed to Tula. I became less committed to Tula. Let's. Let's put it like that simply. And my father had died and that had happened, and I. Yeah, I just think we were at war and it was time to go. And that's what I did. And Amanda Brooks, who was. Who was with us, you know, in and out, musing. Yeah. They decided to keep it going. That's when they moved to Christie Street. My point was that all of that coincided with the first article that I published that was published.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I think I remember that, Josh. That's interesting.

[Tula]

It happened completely by fluke. I had met Trip Gabriel, who was the editor in charge of all of the fashion writing at the time. At that time, I met him at some industry party and we fell into a conversation. And I never met him because he doesn't. He didn't. He wasn't a public person at all. He was like this mysterious wizard of Oz. You always heard about it, but you never saw me. Didn't go to shows or any of that. So I met him and we found the conversation. We had a very nice chat. It was very convivial. And the next day I called him and I said, it was a pleasure to meet you. If I wrote something, would you read it? And he said, of course. So I wrote was about the struggles of having this small business.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

And keep moving forward, I suppose, was the ultimate message. But it ended up on the front page of the Style section, as you could imagine. And I think that maybe at that moment, because I saw my byline and it was independent of anybody but myself, that was certainly a moment at which another door opened. It's the New York Times, you know. But before that, all really got rolling in that very earth. Yes. I taught at Parsons for one year for Tim Gunn, who wasn't Tim Gunn yet. My tale about that is that Tim and I had a very good relationship. He could not have been more enthusiastic or supportive or just really let me. As long as I followed certain syllabus, he really let me do my thing. And I loved it. It was a fantastic experience teaching. I think he. I think he made it fantastic for me. He said to me one day, well, the Bravo TV is coming here because they want to do a show that they want to film here. Something about a contest. And he said, maybe, you know, maybe you'd get a kick out of it. You should come. And I. I said, oh, thank you so much, Tim. And I walked away and I thought, what is he talking about? Project Runway. Project Runway. I thought, this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. I don't know what he is talking about. So I didn't go, what do you.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Think needs to change in the industry so that emerging designers can succeed? Because it seems like it's set up for nobody to be successful unless they have a rich uncle.

[Josh Pattner]

Fashion has to be smaller.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Josh Pattner]

One time, Diana von Furstenberg came up to Tula and she laid up on that couch and I gave her. I went to the flea market and I got a crystal bowl and I filled it with cherries and ice like they do in Capri. And I gave her the bowl. And she chatted and chatted. And I was going off on my whole pitch about being a brand and.

[Tula]

We want to be a brand.

[Josh Pattner]

The brand, the shoes and the perfume and the Tula lifestyle. And she said, you have it absolutely wrong. She said, you have to keep this whole thing thriving, but very small. And I never forgot that.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I love that.

[Josh Pattner]

Absolutely. And of course, she said it with the confidence that only she has. And, you know, would that be possible? Wouldn't that be an incredible thing to do?

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Josh Pattner]

But if you were to speak to the financiers in town, I wonder how.

[Tula]

Quickly they'd be sending me a check.

[Josh Pattner]

Because we can get going.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Josh Pattner]

I just. I think that's the only direction.

[Tula]

And I think the whole thing is.

[Josh Pattner]

Blowing up, obviously, fast fashion. How much does the Dior bag cost? What are people really going to pay? It's all just become a loony bin. And it's. It's eating itself. It's like any. Like anything. It eats its own tail at a certain.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

Point.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Do you have any regrets in your career?

[Josh Pattner]

I don't have regret as much as I have curiosities because I pass by certain experiences that I wish that I had. Irene Emark asked me to be a buyer, and I said no because I was afraid of the math. And he said, I'll get you a math person. And I still said no. Polly Mellon offered me a job once to be her assistant because I was freelancing up there. Here's something I learned about Myself. The reason that I said that no to that job, shocking to me to this day, is because I didn't like the position on the masthead that they were going to put me on working for Polymelon. I mean, that was where my ego was really. My ego was really young and throbbing at that point. What a ridiculous thing to have done. So who knows where that went.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Josh Pattner]

I feel that I have more creative to give. So it's more about that question because.

[Tula]

I do have so much.

[Laura Vinroopool]

What's next? And what's the. What's the right next.

[Tula]

And.

[Josh Pattner]

And what could I do if I wasn't asking everybody that I knew for a dollar?

[Tula]

You know that.

[Josh Pattner]

Which it would be interesting to know that.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Josh Pattner]

And I'm writing a book.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh, wow.

[Josh Pattner]

Which will come out in a year. It's called I Remember Fashion.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I love.

[Josh Pattner]

It's with Unbound Edition, which is in Atlanta, Small, brilliant press, still relatively new. It is a collection of things that I wrote across all of those years of writing, and they are recontextualized from the perspective. Well, those things the publisher pointed out to me are in a way antique because all of those stories were written before the iPhone, before the social media, before the personal stylist for the influencer, for the Kardashian. They're from another time. So it's a reflection back and forth of that. And now with a little bit of. With some biographical mix in.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Okay. I mean, stylist, PR professor, journalist, buyer, merchandiser, designer, a million things. Of all of these, what stands out to you as the most important in your trajectory?

[Tula]

Define important, please.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Defining of kind of who you are and who you've become.

[Tula]

I am, I think, at heart, I'm a designer.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Yeah.

[Tula]

Because that's what I think about when I'm not thinking about anything else, just what my mind returns to. And that's been true since I was the youngest of young person. I mean, whether that means, oh, that that would be a pretty print or, you know, thinking about a jersey, drat. Whatever it might be, that's just what floats through my mind. And for better or for worse, I have other abilities. And I guess I'm equally verbal and visual, which is maybe kind of strong. So I'm not sure.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Unusual. Yeah.

[Tula]

But the one that defines me the most, I think is making something. And in that sense, I think. And I don't. What I could say is that every job that I've ever had is same job. That's what I've learned. It's all the same process. It's writing a story is the same thing for me as building a collection or styling magazines or doing visual or. It's all the same thing. You're making a point. So, so you come to a point, you put all the pieces, you do the research. Well, you're engaged with the subject, you do the research in whatever way that happens for you. You begin to develop something, whether you're writing the first paragraph or you're the one who starts with the conclusion, however it goes, or you're taking pictures and sticking them on a board or you're going to the fabric fair. It's all the same process.

[Laura Vinroopool]

You're telling a story.

[Tula]

You're telling a story. That's all it is.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I think it's one of the most beautiful things that I've heard on this podcast in over a hundred episodes. It's so beautiful. What did you wear to the prom?

[Josh Pattner]

I went to two different proms.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Uh huh.

[Josh Pattner]

I'm very happy to say I went to my promotion at Kenwood Academy in Hyde Park. I wore a rent a tuxedo from wherever it is the tuxedos were rented from. But the point of that is that I made all four dresses of the dates.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Oh my God.

[Josh Pattner]

Well, I was still working in the costume shop at that time, so after hours, like I got some Butterick patterns that I, you know, manipulated them around for one. The one that I remember the best was my date. Her name was Anna. And it was a spaghetti strap camisole with a v neck, two pieces and a, and a. And a long faux skirt. Not circular, a dirndl, I suppose. It's called a gathered skirt in the waistband.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Beautiful. And what color?

[Josh Pattner]

It was a jade green, a color that I've never liked ever since then, strangely. And it was a. It was a jack card with little.

[Tula]

Butterflies or something, but I had some.

[Josh Pattner]

Kind of jack card. Spaghetti straps is what I remember. That was my first time making spaghetti straps.

[Laura Vinroopool]

I love that.

[Josh Pattner]

And then at the other prom, I guess I. A girl from another high school asked me to go to her prom and I guess I rented the same text.

[Tula]

Oh no.

[Josh Pattner]

I wore a Pierre Cardin blue cotton three piece suit with gold logo buttons.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Love.

[Josh Pattner]

Or maybe I wore a tuxedo.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Anyway, sounds amazing, Josh. Thank you for spending the afternoon with me.

[Josh Pattner]

Thank you for spending the afternoon with me. I need no more friends or any therapy for the rest of my four days.

[Laura Vinroopool]

Well, you've made my summer. What We Wore is produced by Capitol and Balto Creative Media. The original song, someone so Enchanting was composed and performed by Britt Drazda. Please follow us on Instagram hatweworepodcast for additional content and show updates. Queencitypodcastnetwork.com.