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- [00:05]
A
I'm Laura Vinroot Poole, and this is what we wore. Patti Dubrov is an exceptional makeup artist who works with some of the biggest names in fashion and Hollywood. Her superpower is her ability to make women feel their most beautiful without ever losing the person underneath. You have such an interesting childhood. Will you talk to me a little bit about that, where you're from and what your childhood was like?
- [00:34]
B
Oh, wow. Well, I was born in Germany, and then my father was American. My mother's German, and my. And then we moved to the States because my father left his post in Germany. He was in the military. And I grew up in New Jersey, and I grew up, like, in a kind of a small town in northern New Jersey, but I was close enough to New York City, where I knew that it was right there. Just right there, an arm's length away. I had relatives in Long island, and we would go to see them very often. So we would drive from Jersey to Long island, always passing like that, you know, cityscape and then passing. Yeah. And so I was always like, you, you over there. I'm coming for you as soon as I can. And I. I did. I moved to New York the second I graduated high school. But I, you know, I was thinking about, you know, that this is a. This is a very. You know, the people that you talk to are fashion people. And. And I. I haven't considered myself a fashion person really, for a really long time. Well, I don't know. I guess just because, you know, beauty's over here, fashion's here. Yes. They intersect. But maybe because of the Hollywood thing, you know, in the mix. Yeah. I was thinking beginnings, and. And I really, like, started in fashion in so many ways. Even in high school, I was part of a program called deca. Distributive Education Clubs of America or something. I might be getting that wrong. My notes are somewhere else. But what it was was. It was like, you know, I was studying, like, marketing. Like, in high school, I would. I was studying, like, marketing. Fashion focused marketing. Sales. Not design per se, but marketing and sales for fashion purposes. And I would do school half a day, and I would work the other half a day as part of this work study DECA program. So that was the part that I really was, like, into, because I. I wanted to get started with life as soon as possible. And getting started with life for me meant, like, getting to work. I was working in a clothing store at a mall, and I. It was a store called Inwear Matinique, which was a Copenhagen Danish fashion brand. Where? Parish. This is the 80s. Parachute pants were really a thing. And oversized suits, you know, like, talking head style, big shoulder suits. And. And, yeah, and I worked in that store. And then. And then when I moved to New York, I was pursuing makeup. I moved to New York straight after high school. I was pursuing makeup, but I didn't really yet know how to do that, except for, you know, the obvious department store counter. I had a couple of retail fashion jobs. I worked at Trash and vaudeville on St. Mark's Place.
- [03:33]
A
Yeah.
- [03:33]
B
And. And the thing about Trash and Vaudeville is they really liked me, but I didn't look tough enough, like hardcore punk enough to be on the sales floor. So I got to work with the. With the team. The owners owned a clothing company called Trip New York City. And it was making all this, like, stretchy black and, like, black tight jeans and stretchy, like, black, like, the stuff that would sell in Trash and Vaudeville. I went and worked in their kind of manufacturing loft space, and I would remember, like, cutting patterns and cutting fabric and, you know, doing like, whatever they needed me to do because I was part of the Trash and Vaudeville family. But again, they had me out there in, like, the, you know, where. Where the clothes were being made. Huh. And then I had a stint working at Fiorici and then doing makeup, of course. Yeah.
- [04:29]
A
What was your first makeup memory as a child?
- [04:32]
B
I. I have this very clear vision of myself sitting in front of my mother's makeup mirror as a child and being surrounded by the things. And I. You know, I've always thought that that that memory was like 10 years old, but I'm realizing it's a little bit earlier. It's more like seven or eight. And her makeup mirror surrounded by her things. She had nice things, but she wasn't a great, you know, beauty, but she had, like, some decent things. And she would let me hang out there when she went to work as long as I didn't make a mess. And so I remember, you know, playing with those magical potions and lotions and powders and. And having this distinct thought, like, this is what I want to do when I grow up.
- [05:20]
A
And how did you know that it was a thing? I mean, how did you.
- [05:23]
B
I didn't. I didn't. There was, like, back then, I mean, we're talking now, the 70s, there was no known career as a makeup artist. A makeup counter was obvious. And then maybe if you put the pieces together, you could see people on a screen, you know. You know, Gilligan's Island. Someone must have been doing Ginger's makeup or whatever.
- [05:46]
A
Wait, so. So you recognize that. That, that was a thing that somebody. That was a job?
- [05:51]
B
No, I didn't recognize the TV and the movie makeup artist part. I didn't get that. Like, I. It wasn't in my awareness, but I recognized the makeup counterpart because I would go to the counter with my mother. So that's why straight from high school, I was like, oh, I'm going to work at a department store in New York City at a makeup counter, because that's, that's how you do makeup.
- [06:15]
A
And it was more about learning the technique or having the tools to be able to do that and, and make people feel better. Like, what was the.
- [06:21]
B
All the things. Yeah, all those things. I mean, I think it's very close to sales. Right. It's making people feel seen, making people feel comfortable. Making people feel like you're guiding them in the right direction to be their most kind of empowered and beautiful. So whether you're doing that, helping someone to kind of do that through clothing or through what's on their face, very, very similar, ultimately, with the goal of selling, obviously, when you're in those environments, but, you know, with the kind of maybe the heart space goal of, you know, helping this person feel great.
- [06:59]
A
Were you doing it with your friends at all and what were you doing with your makeup at that time?
- [07:03]
B
Yeah. Prior to leaving high school, during high school, middle school, and high school, I was the girl who was getting everyone ready for all the plays, all the dances, everything. Every weekend, we, you know, that's where the party happened. That's where the real fun happens.
- [07:21]
A
So true.
- [07:21]
B
Yeah, I mean, you know, I. I think about that a lot. I'm like, the best part of the night was always, like, the girls getting ready together.
- [07:28]
A
It still is, actually. Yeah.
- [07:30]
B
And, yeah. And it really can be even, you know, even now I'm getting people ready to go to big, high profile events. But I bet if you ask them what was the best part of the night, they might say, you know, hanging with the glam squad.
- [07:45]
A
Totally.
- [07:46]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [07:47]
A
So trash and vaudeville and fear. Ritchie. And then how did you. Did you get a job at a department store doing makeup?
- [07:53]
B
I did. Well, the first one was Bloomingdale's, but I got a job spraying perfume. And that was like. I did that literally. I think it was a couple of days and I had such a headache, and I was like, no, this isn't right. I went over to Bergdorf Goodman and that looked really fancy and pretty.
- [08:12]
A
Yeah.
- [08:12]
B
And again, this is like 1987. I told them that I had experience doing makeup, and I believed it. And I don't think they had any way of proving it or not.
- [08:26]
A
Do you have to show them a face, you know, anything like that? No, no. You were just like, yeah, I've been doing it for years. Yeah.
- [08:33]
B
Then I just got a job at a counter, and then the counter trained me.
- [08:37]
A
What was the counter Patty at that time?
- [08:39]
B
Eve Saint Laurent, I think you would call it something different now. And I remember being right across from the Chanel counter, and I was friends with the girls at the Chanel counter, and. And yeah, and I was trained, you know, through the brand very much. You know, the brand will give you, like, you know, the brands still do that. They give, like, in house training, training on their dinos, specific techniques and products. And that was the first way that I was actually really learning about makeup, because There was no YouTube. There was no, you know. Yeah, there was none of that. And then. And then that opened my eyes to, okay, I'm doing makeup like this, but then I'm in New York and I'm starting to see and meet people and see, like, oh, I could be doing it for photo shoots and there's music videos. It was the time of mtv and. And then I got a job at MTV working at the. In the studios as a freelancer. And again, this is the time where MTV was, like, the center of the universe. Yeah, I would do, like, the VJs and the guests that would come in. I was just there, you know, for whoever needed. And then a show called House of Style with Cindy Crawford began, and I was able to work with Cindy on that show. And, you know, that was like, one of my first things from Yves Saint.
- [10:02]
A
Laurent at Bergdorf and, like, understanding. I mean, they're like your paints. I mean, I guess they're your. Those are your. That's your medium. That's your. Those are your tools. Have you already formed your ethos, I guess, of, like, what it was you wanted women to feel like or what it was that you believed about makeup or what. What it should be doing for women?
- [10:23]
B
I am not going to lie and say I had an ethos. When I was 18 or 19, I was literally just like, hustling and. And probably paint. Like, the more was better, probably back then, like, the more product you could pack on someone or the more things you could encourage them to need in their life. Yeah, I had no ethos. I mean, I was just hustling. But I loved makeup. But I loved makeup, and I. I had a real passion And a real, like, intuitive joy, intuitive spark for it.
- [10:58]
A
From working with clients and learning sort of the trade, I guess, and then moving to Cindy Crawford. I mean, that's like the beginning of the supers. Like, that's such a huge time. Did you understand something new about makeup when you. When you connected with her and you connected with House of Style?
- [11:15]
B
You know, the supers were a big part of my life because then I was also assisting some of the great makeup artists at the time, and especially Francois Nars. And so the supers were it. The girls that I kind of was spending a lot of time with.
- [11:31]
A
And you were the same age, and.
- [11:33]
B
We'Re all the same age. Yeah, you know, I'm an assistant, but they're very well known. But we're all the same age. They taught me a lot about me. You know, they taught me, I mean, obviously, the people I was being mentored by. Francois Nars. I assisted Bobby Brown. I assisted Kevin aucoin, Mary Greenwell, Susan Hauser. Susan Hauser. How did you know? Did I tell you that, or did.
- [11:54]
A
You connect over that research? Patty.
- [11:57]
B
Oh, wow. Yeah, she was my first. First. Wow. Susan. They definitely helped inform me, you know, and teach me. It was almost like I. I see myself as, like, this wild, like, rider of a horse. Like, I could get on a horse and I could ride bareback and guinea whores. I'll jump on and woo. But then they taught me how to refine it and maybe ride, you know, with a more. More finesse.
- [12:23]
A
Looking back, like working with Susan Hauser or Bobby Brown, were they training you from just showing you how they did it, or were they actually telling you in words? Here is what we're doing. Here's what. How I want the client to feel. Or, you know, I mean, how. How does that work?
- [12:37]
B
Well, I think back then, because we were working with models nobody really cared about the client was feeling. Because the client. The client is a model, and the model is just a canvas. The feeling was what was to be evoked either on a Runway or, you know, in a. In a photo shoot.
- [12:54]
A
And as the client, the designer or the. Or Vogue or.
- [12:58]
B
Exactly, yeah. The client is either, you know, exactly the designer or Irving Penn, because you're in his studio, whatever. So, yes, a combination of words, but it was very much by observation, I think mostly, I think that most of my learning was by watching and then mimicking and then finding my own way of doing things, you know? Yeah. Studying. Studying through my eyes and then, you know, recreating it. Not necessarily words talk a Little bit.
- [13:32]
A
About, if you will, about Susan Hauser and how she helped propel your career.
- [13:36]
B
Wow, that's such an amazing memory. Like, she was really the. The first person I assisted. I don't even remember how we met. I wish I would have asked her. I wish I would have checked in with her to ask her. But I remember that she was doing a lot of these, like, really big fashion shows, but for these. In these trade environments. And she took me on my very first work trip to Las Vegas, and. And we just had to keep painting people, this trade show. And. And she was like a mom, because I had never, like, I traveled as a kid with my parents, but I'd never gone anywhere by myself for work. And so there I was, like, traveling for work and not having any clue. She was just really like. Like this perfect, maternal, sweet, but she wasn't old enough to be my mom. But she, like, assumed this role because I was just like. I knew nothing. Yeah. I don't remember anything other. I don't remember any other specific kind of things she taught me other than just how to be, you know, in those very early days.
- [14:44]
A
And then what about working with Francois Nars?
- [14:47]
B
Francois. I was with him for, like, a year and a half as his first assistant. And this was at a time where he was the guy who was doing all the fashion. You know, Versace, Calvin Valentino, Prada. I mean, you name Alberta Ferretti. I mean, Marc Jacobs. No, even before Marc Jacobs maybe was whatever. Anna Sui it. So it was like New York, Milan, Paris. And I. Me being his first assistant, man, I traveled with him all the time, you know, so, you know, we'd be in Milan doing, like, all the shows, and then we'd hop on a plane and we'd go to Paris and we'd do shows, and it was supermodel, super model time. And then when we weren't in the show cycle, he was not working with Steven Meisel at that time. He was working with everyone else. Him and Stephen had had kind of stopped. So I got to experience Francois in the studio with Irving Penn Abedon. One day it's Ellen Von Unworth. One day we're shooting a Madonna video. Then we're working with Peter Lindbergh that we're working with Demarcier. Wow. That was my kind of learning. That was my training ground.
- [16:00]
A
Yeah.
- [16:00]
B
And it was every day. Every day that I was with him, you know, and. And that's where I learned everything, and that's where I met the people who then gave me a chance to Begin my career as me. Yeah, that was a big thing.
- [16:15]
A
Did he ever give you any advice?
- [16:17]
B
I mean, he gave me advice all the time because, you know, I was like, having to kind of, like, do for him, whether it was, you know, where to set up the makeup, you know, like, no. Oh, no. Don't set up at that table where they have those lights, you know, that makeup light. No, no, no. Go to the window. Go to a door set up over there. Find a table. We're working by the. We're working in natural light. So that was the first thing immediately. Like, where to set up was not where they necessarily wanted you to set up, of course, unless you were in Irving Penn Studio, and then you set up where you set up, where they wanted you to set up. But that was a. You know, but for the most part, we were going to a window, going to a door, getting to the natural light, making everyone figure it out, because that was what was most important, is that we had good light. He was very much a minimalist. He wasn't a maximalist. And so his makeup kit would have very few things in it.
- [17:14]
A
Interesting.
- [17:14]
B
Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't a big thing. And I remember one time, the box. It was a box, you know, one of these little boxes. And I remember one time we got to set in the box. I don't know what had happened in the night before, but nothing was left in the box. It was like he'd taken everything out and left five things inside the box. And I was a bit like, where's all the stuff? And he was like, it's okay. It's okay. We do it, we do it, we do it. And we did an entire face with a concealer, brown pencil, a lip balm. I feel like that was it. You know, it was like one of these things. It was crazy. But it showed me that with those things, you could do everything. Because that brown pencil could be a lip liner and could be a brow if you blend it well. And your eye, obviously.
- [18:08]
A
Yeah.
- [18:09]
B
And even you could use it in here if you want. And that concealer could be blended with the. The lip balm could be some lipstick for a pale lip, and, you know, obviously to clean the skin and, like, voila. Voila. So that was a big lesson. So, you know, I'm really grateful that I didn't come from the school of, like, 12 suitcases.
- [18:32]
A
Yeah. And tell me about Bobby Brown.
- [18:34]
B
Yeah, Bobby. I. Well, it was very brief because I think I just did, like, one or two shows with her, and it was Very early. And I think. I think maybe. I mean, her line had launched, lipsticks had been launched, and I. Yeah, I don't remember more than, like, it was, like, one or two shows, and she was, you know, a great cheerleader.
- [18:57]
A
That was a really revolutionary new way of looking at makeup, wasn't it?
- [19:00]
B
Very much so. Her for. Yeah. And her, like, her lipstick line. Well, what. Actually. What year did the lipstick line launch? I feel like there was an overlap with me being at Bergdorf's, but I might be, like, mixing up timelines, because I just loved Bergdorf's so much. I would spend time there all the time.
- [19:16]
A
I would move in if I could.
- [19:19]
B
I actually. I also had, like. Because I was a hustler, I didn't. I didn't have just one job ever. I was also working, doing the windows at Bergdorf. Oh, wow. So, like, I would do makeup in the day, and then I would join the window team at night when the windows had to be changed over.
- [19:36]
A
That's incredible.
- [19:37]
B
It was incredible. Yeah.
- [19:39]
A
Patti. Well, speaking of that, that golden age, what was it like working in the 90s with the supermodels as your peers?
- [19:46]
B
I knew it was special, and they were very, you know, they were very famous in that world, but it was also kind of weirdly normal. That was just where I landed. And these were the girls that were my age, and we would, like, you know, do these shows, and then we would go hang out. Yeah, hang out. And, you know, sometimes we'd just hang out in their hotel room because it was. Was a bother to be out, and there'd be people. Too many people. But, you know, this is all pre cell phones and, you know, everything being deeply documented. So I am so grateful that there are not photos of some of the, you know, shenanigans. But those girls, you know, I. I think I just. I gravitated towards the ones that were more grounded in that very ungrounded world. So Christy Turlington was. You know, Christy and I became really close, I think, because we. I. Not. Not. I think. I know because we shared not only a love of, like, the whole fashion thing that we were in the swirl of, but a deep commitment to spiritual life.
- [20:59]
A
And you all went to India together.
- [21:01]
B
We went to India together, and we would travel together, and it was. There was, like, you know, we would travel together for spiritual retreats and things like that. So. So that's where, you know, I saw, like, oh, okay. You can be in the midst of all of this, but you can still keep a focus on what's really important, you know, if you find the right people.
- [21:21]
A
Yeah.
- [21:22]
B
Find your tribe.
- [21:23]
A
That's sort of when the changeover over to actresses happened. We interviewed Ivan shaw about the 90s and sort of how that, how that trickled in. Did, did you notice it at the time and did it interest you?
- [21:36]
B
Well, I really noticed it because I, I was living in New York and my boyfriend, fiance, now husband is in Los Angeles. And so I was really teetering between like, do I go to LA to be with him and to have this life or do I stay in New York? And I was very adamant to stay in New York and be a fashion person because LA was a little bit lame. And then as I was shooting like covers for all the magazines, you know, doing all the editorial, but mainly the covers, it was becoming less and less models that were being booked. And it was actors and it was Liv Tyler and it was like, you know, young actors, young actors, young actors. And I had. And this is like the very late 90s, before 2000, you know, more like 99, I remember like 99, 2000, really noticing it like, oh, I'm working with actresses now, no more models and why don't I do that there? And so I decided to move to Los Angeles because I saw that it was becoming cool to work with actresses and for. In the fashion, kind of in the.
- [22:46]
A
Fashion realm, which was really revolutionary. I mean that was not a thing. And so what did all the supers do? They then they were doing shows and.
- [22:55]
B
Advertising, I guess, you know, the advertising. I mean supers are always going to do advertising.
- [23:00]
A
That's always the point.
- [23:01]
B
Yeah, but I mean even now more and more actresses.
- [23:05]
A
Yeah.
- [23:05]
B
Get those campaigns. So. Yeah, I don't, I guess it was just, there was just maybe, maybe there was like the supers were the uber famous anyway. Maybe it was just more like the ground of the kind of newer ones or you know, kind of not the top were being more affected. But yeah, I just remember for me it was like, oh, why not be in Hollywood where these women live if I'm going to be working with these women?
- [23:34]
A
Anyway, will you describe the plane ride to LA after making the decision?
- [23:40]
B
So I made the decision. It was, well, September. We made the decision to move and then September 11th happened and so then we, and we were planning to move a few months after September, like January. And that was hard because being, you know, in the city where the city's smoking and burning and, and all of that feeling. But we, we decided, okay, we're still going to move. There was a Moment where we're like, maybe we should stay and support our city. We make the move and I'm on the plane. I lay. I'm on the plane to LA for my move, and I land and there's a call to. A message to call my agent. And I get on the phone with him. I'm at baggage carousel, okay? And he's like, well, guess what, you just booked the Vanity Fair Hollywood cover with Annie Leibovitz shooting. And. And I had never shot a Vanity Fair cover before. I'd shot pictures for the inside. I'd never worked with Annie before. And, you know, it was one of those Hollywood covers where, you know, there was multiple talent, right? And I think that, like, two of the girls had. Had. Had asked for me. So that's why it was. That it brought me in at that moment. I was just like, holy shit, this is. Yes. And. And there was this like, thank you, thank you. Like, above God, however we express God. Because I knew, like, this is a sign I made the right decision. It was so. It was so strong.
- [25:15]
A
Do you remember who was on that cover?
- [25:17]
B
I do. Jennifer Connelly, Kirsten Dunst, Naomi Watts. Gosh, I'm remembering that panel. There were three panels. I don't remember all the panels, but I remember that it was like one of the more casual than, you know, Hollywood covers where they're in jeans and tank tops, the girls are all young, very fresh face. And I shared the COVID with Paul Starr, who was a big deal makeup artist in L. A. I mean, the fact that I was, like, sharing credits. Paul Starr was such a big deal. So that was meeting Annie, and she really liked me off that shoot. And then she booked me for an American Vogue cover with Angelina Jolie.
- [25:56]
A
Wow.
- [25:57]
B
Like, right after that, and then I. She booked me with another Vogue cover with Catherine Cedar Jones and Renee Zellweger for the Chicago movie. And it just happened that I was working with both of those ladies. So then I got another Vogue cover, and then I continued to do this, those Vanity Fair Hollywood covers for years and years after that.
- [26:21]
A
Are you pregnant at this time or do you have a baby?
- [26:24]
B
Not when I first moved. I moved in, I guess it was. So it was 2002. I got here, I gave birth to her a year later. So, yeah, there is a photo of me working on the second Vanity Fair. The second for me, Vanity Fair Hollywood cover where I'm holding Bianca because she came to set and Gwyneth, I think, is meeting her and Gwyneth was pregnant.
- [26:48]
A
Did you feel like that was Easier to manage in LA than would have been in New York.
- [26:52]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, just winter. Just even getting through the winters.
- [26:59]
A
So when this happens and all this sort of cements. Is that when you felt like your style, I guess, as an artist really emerged as a thing, The Patty Dubroff.
- [27:08]
B
Face, I wouldn't have acknowledged it then. Like, I'd say 20 some. 20, whatever years, 23 years ago, I wouldn't have called it a thing. I think I've just. I mean, maybe now I've come to realize that there's a clear. A clear aesthetic. You know, maybe 10 years ago, I probably paid attention to that also and noticed that a little bit. But I. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't coming into Hollywood being like, I've got this thing and you all want it, you know, like.
- [27:40]
A
But looking back, you did. I mean, like, if. If we. I think that's one of the most interesting things on social media. When you post past covers that you've done, you're like, oh, that really was, like, so. So different for the time. I think it's true.
- [27:53]
B
I mean, I. I have been pulling up some of those old covers and I. I realized, like, oh, I was. I was always brought in to do that thing, which was to underdo when things were being overdone. Underdoing, I guess, has always been kind of my sweet spot.
- [28:07]
A
Yeah. Do you think that's still what your style is now?
- [28:10]
B
Yeah, I. Even if I tried, I wouldn't be able to pack a ton of products on someone's face. Like, it just. I wouldn't. I wouldn't be able to do it. Like, I have to get pushed really hard to go harder, harder. You know, I can make a statement, but I'm like, I can't. I can't lose the person.
- [28:27]
A
So then you're in LA and then you're starting to do red carpet. I mean, that's a totally different thing. Who had told you what it needs to look like or what?
- [28:36]
B
No one. No one. No one. As you're saying that, I realized, like, that was not something that someone, you know, mentored me into, you know, like, because. And doing red carpet is, like. It is its own thing, like.
- [28:52]
A
Yeah.
- [28:53]
B
And I think. I think the thing that helped me to be able to do red carpet in the way that's needed, which is basically, you need to be a retoucher with makeup. Right. Because there is no retoucher involved. And I think that that's coming from an earlier generation of not Shooting digital and having the face needed to be as perfect as possible because retouching wasn't even part of the conversation. So coming from that, but also because I had also kind of come from like this Peter Lindbergh school of, you know, no, you don't put a lot. You don't hide the person. You don't make it too perfect. You always leave, you know, kind of this kind of feeling of, of skin and realness to it. So merging those two things is how are you a perfectionist retoucher without packing on a ton of product and keeping this like, kind of like feeling of realness and the person. And, and so I had to figure out how to mend those two worlds to, to then put it on a red carpet and make sure that it looked great at noon and then at midnight, you know, in the 12 hour span.
- [30:08]
A
And did it always work?
- [30:09]
B
Not always, no. No. There's some doozies. I, I like have come across some doozies in trying to do a thing.
- [30:20]
A
That's a question I have is doing a thing. Is it from the client saying, I really want, you know, smoky eyes and you're like, you really shouldn't be doing smokey eyes because it has to be from what, you know, whatever.
- [30:31]
B
Both. There could be that like, you know, that's the thing the client wanted and it didn't hold up. Or I, you know, I misstepped and you know, maybe I also realized that I would take some kind of editorial tricks and apply them to a red carpet and then see, like, oh, that doesn't really work because it doesn't help. Then, then things don't stick around or stay put as long. Like for instance, one is like, you know, an editorial trick is to like grease the eyelid, you know, and for the camera, that really helps bring a lot of light to the eye. And even if you're doing something very dark, if you grease that lid, there's some light play within the darkness. That's great. That's great. You can control it. You're there touching up all day on set. But then I did that on a red carpet. Cool. We're going to do something really dark, but I'll grease it up so it look, you know, more destroyed. It just looked like a hot mess by the time. Like, you know, like wet tar. Wet tar. That, you know. Exactly, exactly. You know, and I also like have learned that, you know, I have a comfort zone and, and if I go out of that comfort zone, maybe it doesn't always go so well. Like false Lashes.
- [31:47]
A
Yeah.
- [31:48]
B
But even me, like, applying them. It's like, I've got good days, but it's not my comfort zone.
- [31:55]
A
Do you remember the first red carpet that you did?
- [31:57]
B
The first, like, meaningful red carpet was. I mean, it's not the first one, because I'm sure I had done some to get them ready for, like, premieres, but I didn't really understand, like, I was still, like, I didn't. I hadn't really understood, like, that what they were going to do. But I remember Liv Tyler, the Oscars, 1999. She's wearing, like, a lavender Prada.
- [32:20]
A
Yes.
- [32:21]
B
She has really short hair. That was my first, like, Oscars red carpet. That was, like. That was a big deal.
- [32:27]
A
Were you nervous?
- [32:28]
B
I. You know, it felt like it was doing something very extra and special and I was nervous. Yeah.
- [32:36]
A
Yeah. But you knocked it out of the park.
- [32:38]
B
She looked gorgeous. Maybe I could have powdered a little bit more, you know, in the right places, because, you know, powder's like. You don't want to overdo it, but if you underdo it, it can be a little glowy.
- [32:50]
A
Are you a critic of your work? I mean, do you go back and say, like, oh, I could have done this?
- [32:54]
B
Oh, my God, yeah.
- [32:55]
A
Really.
- [32:56]
B
Don't we all. Right. I mean, I don't know.
- [32:59]
A
Like, I don't know that we all do. I think we probably should to a point, because I think that's how you learn, and I think a lot of people aren't willing to. To learn. I mean, I wonder if some of your mentors. I wonder if Francois ever did that.
- [33:11]
B
I can't remember hearing him criticize his work. I don't know. I mean, but maybe those are also some of the things that people don't say out loud.
- [33:20]
A
Yeah.
- [33:20]
B
You know, what's going. You know, what. What are you saying in your head?
- [33:24]
A
Was there a difference in working with actors and, you know, them wanting to stay closer to what the box that they thought that they were in or how they should be portrayed or how they should look.
- [33:35]
B
The supermodels very often had a point of view, and they weren't, you know, that when they were the super supers, they dictated, you know, even if the show look was this.
- [33:46]
A
Yeah.
- [33:47]
B
Within this, they are going to.
- [33:50]
A
Linda said, but actually, it's going to be this.
- [33:52]
B
But actually, it's going to be this. You can do a little bit of that, but it's going to be this. So I saw that in play, so I understood, you know, how to. And also coming from retail, how to make that person. You know, that person needs to be. Their input is super important. So then, yes, when working with actresses. But I realized, like, no, this is really about making sure that they feel like the best version of themselves. They are not in some character right now. They are not, you know, putting on some kind of crazy outfit that is for a photo shoot. That's not who they are. They are who they are. They need to feel good. They. This is a collaboration. And I realized that that was, like, what was really resonating for me as an artist anyway. I wasn't, like, in the fashion world. I wasn't good at creating, like, all the circus stuff, you know? You know, Pat came around and blew all our minds by this kind of fantasy world that she would create. No idea how to do that.
- [34:54]
A
Yeah.
- [34:55]
B
Like, it was not my, you know, my thing at all. My thing is put me with someone, and I will help bring out her ideal version of herself for that moment. And considering all of the input, you know, involved.
- [35:11]
A
But I think that's your superpower. And I think it's interesting that when your career really shot up, I think was. Was when you got to Los Angeles, because you're working with all of these people, that you are making them feel that way. But also, paparazzi's catching them the next day with no makeup on. So it's not. It's also not too far from the real version.
- [35:30]
B
Yeah, it's. It's like. It's not too far from the real version, but it's a heightened version of the real version.
- [35:35]
A
And you also. I mean, people are devoted to you, and I think that that says everything about. Well, it's who you are as a person. But I also think it is what you create, because I think you just make people feel so good.
- [35:49]
B
Thank you.
- [35:50]
A
You show them their beauty almost, I think.
- [35:53]
B
Thank you. That's really sweet.
- [35:56]
A
Have you ever looked back and realized how physically exhausting what you do is?
- [36:00]
B
Oh, absolutely. I don't have to look back. I guess when I was younger, I just didn't. I just powered through it. But I, like, I've had flashes of me, like, in my makeup kit in the subway in New York, and I'm like, how the hell did I do that?
- [36:13]
A
Exactly.
- [36:14]
B
You know, Like, I have all these physical things that I'm, you know, trying to keep in check now, and a lot of it is because of my kind of years and years of stance in a certain way, when you're reaching like this and, you know. Yeah, it can throw things out, but being A makeup artist is a physically challenging job, and that's why so many people will have assistance with them to. To handle the physically challenging stuff. I was. I'm not that girl to, like, have someone around me all the time. I only. I like to have assistance, and I like to be a mentor. But I also am very respectful of the person, again, whose makeup I'm doing. And it's their space. It's not my space, it's their space. So is it appropriate for me to bring another person into their space? Because if that's not appropriate, I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to open my bag myself and put my stuff on the table and pack it up myself.
- [37:14]
A
Do you think that's just who you are as a person? Is that how you grew up, or is that something you think that you. That you learned from mentors?
- [37:20]
B
I think it's. It's a combo of all those things, and it's a combo of, like, also being so sensitive, because I see, like, you know, when I. When I get into a room and, you know, there's maybe some. Maybe someone, the hairdresser has assistance. And so all of a sudden, that person who, you know, we're to work on has to put these extra guards up, and I'm just really sensitive to the guards.
- [37:46]
A
You are so intuitive and so spiritual. Has that. I mean, that's a big part of your work, I think. Don't you think it is?
- [37:53]
B
And I only come to realize that very clearly the past couple of years, because before I would. I had two different channels going on. I had my spiritual world over here, and I would, like, go, you know, tap into my spiritual world. But then I would go back to work, and that was this line over here, and they were kind of running side by side, and I would flip, flap back and forth. But then I started to realize, no, everything is one, and I can't separate this out. So I have to, you know, I have to keep this, like, in this one thing. And, And. And what that can mean is in, like, the kind of more negative sense, if you're very sensitive, you take on a lot, you know, of people's. Other people's. Yeah.
- [38:45]
A
Stuff.
- [38:46]
B
Stuff. And so sometimes I would go home from work and I would, like, pass out for three days.
- [38:51]
A
Yeah.
- [38:52]
B
And feel, like, completely drained and sick and not understand why I couldn't get off the couch for three days, you know, after being on a job with so. And so. Other times I would, you know, kind of come out of a job, and I would feel so high and so much energy that I couldn't sleep for three days. Why was that? Because I was taking on this whole other thing, you know? So the more I've learned to, like, contain myself, protect myself.
- [39:19]
A
Yeah.
- [39:20]
B
Be really clear with myself, I'm not taking on anybody else's stuff. I'm gonna leave it, you know, leave it at the door.
- [39:26]
A
Do you relate to your work more as a. As a career or as a calling?
- [39:30]
B
I mean, it's definitely both because it's. It's, you know, gives me a roof over my head and food on, you know, food on the table. And I knew as a little girl that I was obsessed with these magical powders and potions and things and the transformational, you know, quality and transformational potential that they had. So. So is both. Yeah, for sure. I'm really. I know that I'm very, very fortunate that I am, like, you know, doing the thing that I love as a child and have made a career out of it. I know. It's so rare.
- [40:10]
A
It's rare.
- [40:11]
B
So rare.
- [40:12]
A
You changed my perspective recently in such a big way. I told you that I was kind of over makeup. I just was like, you know what? I'm just. I've given up. I'm not doing it. And I thought, you know, we were hiking together, and I thought you were going to be like, yeah, makes sense. Or like, me too. And you said, it really doesn't take a lot. You know, like, you shouldn't give up, and it really doesn't take a lot. And one of the things you said about it was that it makes people uncomfortable around you when you're not showing up as your best self. Well, first, I love the idea of showing respect to the people that you're around. And I thought about it, and I was like, I have this friend who, like, always wore makeup and now just, like, doesn't. And it really is uncomfortable being around her because you feel like she's sick or something. Like, you're like, is there. How can I help? Support you? Like, what is. What's going on? You know, it's a. It's a real mirror to her insides. Can you give a. A few little tips on what that means just to do a little bit?
- [41:10]
B
That realization really came about when I was starting to see how something so superficial, like makeup. Clothing.
- [41:20]
A
Yeah, clothing. I mean.
- [41:21]
B
Yeah, same superficial. How these superficial things can actually be very, very kind of, spiritually charged.
- [41:31]
A
Yes.
- [41:32]
B
Totems, really. And what it was, was I was teaching people to do makeup, and I was in this kind of period where I was doing a lot of teaching and a lot of people would come to me and be like, I just.
- [41:45]
A
I don't.
- [41:45]
B
I don't. I don't want to do it. I don't care. I don't care. Blah, blah, blah. And I really saw very clearly that them not caring or not wanting to make that extra step made all the people around them that they had to work with and engage with uncomfortable. Because if they looked kind of pale and kind of washed out and kind of meek and whatever, it made the other people feel concerned.
- [42:14]
A
Yeah.
- [42:15]
B
And. And you don't want to step into a circle of people or a meeting or a group or whatever, and all of a sudden, everyone focuses on you and is worried or. It's like. It twists it.
- [42:29]
A
It's like, you didn't show up.
- [42:30]
B
No. And you say what you want is, like, to step into that room and show up in a way where everyone is kind of like, she's here, or. Yeah.
- [42:39]
A
Or.
- [42:39]
B
Or not even. Like, just like. It's like a. A smile, an inner smile comes to play.
- [42:44]
A
Yeah.
- [42:44]
B
So it doesn't take that much to have that effect on your environment. But what it does take is meeting yourself in the mirror.
- [42:54]
A
Yeah.
- [42:54]
B
And having to make the time and put the effort in. And when you meet yourself in the mirror, that's where. That's where the real magic can happen. Because when we meet ourselves in the mirror, if we're doing it in a way where like, oh, I don't want to be doing this, or I have. I don't like what I see. It's a spiral. It's a downward spiral. And if you can meet yourself in the mirror and even for one minute, be like, hi, Yeah, I know I'm. I'm older, but I still love you. Or, you know, whatever. Just tricks. Tricks of the mind. It lifts everything. It lifts you up, and then ultimately you're lifting up your entire environment. I could go on and on and on talking about that stuff, that aspect of beauty, because that is. That's a. Like, hold this. Hold this spot. You know, check back later. You'll see what I'm working on. Kind of vibe.
- [43:56]
A
I cannot wait to hear your answer. What did you wear to the prom? And what was your makeup like, for sure?
- [44:06]
B
Oh, the makeup was so much. Oh, I had. Okay, so I'm going to set the scene. It's 1986. 85. 85, 86. I had gone to a Duran Duran concert at Madison Square Garden, and I met a boy who looked exactly like John Taylor.
- [44:27]
A
Amazing.
- [44:28]
B
The hair, the dress. He was like. He was kind of walking around, like, kind of like he knew that he looked like John Taylor. And all the girls were like, I was very dressed and he was very dressed. And we connected and I. And we became friends and I asked if he would be my prom date, and he was very gay, and he loved that idea. And so I had this, like, crazy hot or hot kind of, you know, John Taylor look alike guy as my date. And then for the prom outfit, I went to a vintage store in New Jersey somewhere, like in the next couple towns over, and I found a emerald green satin dress from the 50s that fit me like a glove and had a matching pair of shoes, which was bizarre. They were like pumps and they fit me. I remember in that store, in that little weird little antique vintage store, this green dress and the shoe, and I'm like, no. And then it was like it was made for me. It was like, it was very 50s cut, so it was tight at the bodice, and it had a little flare and it was below the knee. And no, it had some little straps. Okay, I'm gonna see if I can find a picture. But my hair at the time, it was short and bleach bottle blonde, like Madonna. Okay. Like, I love. I was kind of doing the, like, Madonna wannabe thing. So I accessorized with a lot of Madonna ish bracelet stuff.
- [46:04]
A
Yeah.
- [46:05]
B
And a lot of makeup on. So much makeup. I might have even put a ball because I'm like, oh, this is so vintage. You know, let's do that.
- [46:14]
A
And he showed up.
- [46:16]
B
And he showed up dressed to the nines as if, like, he was, you know, in Durand Durant. I hope I can find a picture.
- [46:23]
A
You can. Thank you so much for doing this.
- [46:25]
B
Thank you. Beauty.
- [46:33]
A
What We Wore is produced by Capitol and Balto Creative Media. The original song Someone so Enchanting was composed and performed by Brit Drazda. Please follow us on Instagram at whatwewpodcast for additional content and show updates. QueenCityPodcastNetwork.com.