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- [00:00]
Ivan Shaw
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Laura Vinroot Poole
I'm Laura Vinroot Poole and this is what we wore. Ivan Shaw is the former photography director at vogue for over 20 years and an amazing orator of the stories and excitement of the height of the magazine. He shares a wealth of wisdom from his career at Conde Nast, where he's now the corporate photography director of Conde Nast and visuals editor of the World of Interiors. I know the answer to this, but tell me again, where are you from?
- [00:32]
Ivan Shaw
Well, I'm from a few places. I was born in New Jersey, but I spent most of my childhood in Connecticut, primarily Stamford, Connecticut to southeastern Connecticut. My mom still lives there, so I kind of feel that's home.
- [00:45]
Laura Vinroot Poole
And how did you come to be interested in fashion or in photography? Which came first?
- [00:50]
Ivan Shaw
Photography definitely came first. And I was kind of obsessed with photography books. When I was a kid, I had my parents life book of pictures which I looked through.
- [00:59]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Do you still have it?
- [01:01]
Ivan Shaw
I lost my parents copy somewhere. They lost it or I lost it and then I went and bought another copy and it was so powerful for me to look at it again, like 30 years since I had looked at it before. Cause I remembered every picture and how much it had impacted my understanding of photography. And one of the most amazing things was one of the pictures I remembered most was a Don McCullen picture from the troubles in Ireland of soldiers running through the streets of Belfast. Actually got to meet Don McCullen and he sat in my office at one of the great moments of my career. Don McCullen, one of the greatest photojournalists of all time, was sitting in my office and we were chatting and I was like, the guy from the book, like I got to meet him and like talk to him and it was unbelievable. So fashion comes a little bit later on.
- [01:48]
Laura Vinroot Poole
I had that same experience. My grandparents had it. And I don't know if they were different. I mean, I don't think they were different, but there may have been different versions of it. But one thing that I really remember was, well, two parts of it. One was Variska coming out of water and grease, right? She had this really cool bikini on with like gold jewelry. And the other was that. What was the first bikini? I can't remember her. Rudy. Rudy. Rudy.
- [02:13]
Ivan Shaw
Genre. Rudy Gernreich. Right.
- [02:15]
Laura Vinroot Poole
There was a photograph of that too in it. And I just remember, I mean, I was obsessed with the whole book, but particularly the fashion. When I look back on it, I.
- [02:22]
Ivan Shaw
Bet, I mean, Vrusha, I think was Henry Clark. I have to go back and look. I Think maybe it was Henry Clark and the Peggy Moffat with Rudi Gernreich, which I think is William Claxton. I want to say William Claxton, but I know the pictures, but I think it's William Claxton. I know. And the other book was the Ernst Haas book called In America, which is just. He was a phenomenal photojournalist. And when I started taking pictures, I wanted to take pictures that looked like Ernst Haas. His daughter Victoria is a friend of mine. And so I told her when I met her, I said, you know, when somebody introduced us, I said, you know, I used to be a photographer and I want to take pictures like your dad. And it was a picture of Lexington Avenue after a snowstorm, which is one of my favorite Ernst Haas pictures. And I always say that picture is the reason why I moved to New York City.
- [03:06]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Wow.
- [03:07]
Ivan Shaw
Because it was so. I mean, there were other reasons too, but it was so fantastic and so glamorous. And I'd like in this really. Not in an obvious way, but just in this. It was so mystical. And I just thought, I want to be there. Like, that's where I want to live and work and have my life.
- [03:22]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Did you have a camera at that time and play around with photography?
- [03:26]
Ivan Shaw
When I was about 14, my brother actually got a camera, I think, from my grandparents who didn't use it. And I picked it up and started taking pictures. Curious. And my first trip is actually fashion related. We were living in. I think we were in maybe in Connecticut or Bedford Hills, New York. We were there for one year and maybe Connecticut. When I first got to Connecticut, and we went into New York for the day, we had tickets to a tennis match, but we. And I brought the camera. But we also went to Paul Stewart because whenever we went to New York, my dad would buy his clothes. My mom loved it, too, but my dad would buy his suits and his coats at Paul Stewart. And I remember going to Paul Stewart and I had the camera around my neck and we went to the tennis match and I took pictures, color, transparency pictures at the tennis match. And those were the first pictures I ever took, like, as a photographer.
- [04:09]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Wow. We've talked before, but tell me a little bit about your dad and what he did and how that played into this, too.
- [04:14]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah, he passed a couple years ago. My dad was a kid from the Bronx, really smart. He was a text, actually. You'll appreciate this. He was a textile salesman in the 60s, and he and his business partner were one of the first people to sell cotton jeans.
- [04:29]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Wow.
- [04:29]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah, wow. I think, if I have that right, the story. Right. Because it's denim originally, obviously, but I think they were selling cotton jeans. But it was. They were very early in the jeans business, in the early 60s, and I think it was cotton jeans. The guy who was working for. Also owned a newspaper in Northern Connecticut, and he said, look, do you want to go to Northern Connecticut and be this advertising manager for this newspaper called the Journal Enquirer, which was a daily in Manchester, Connecticut? I mean, really. I mean, a wonderful place, but kind of the middle of. The middle of nowhere for somebody from New York. My dad always jokes that he went into a diner, like when he first got there, and he ordered a bagel, and the waitress said, what's a bagel? You know, so this is a kid from the Bronx, you know, and my mom went with. Of course we went with him. Right. And my mother always said when she got there, she had. You know, they had lived outside of New York City. She didn't know anyone. There wasn't much to do. It was quiet town. So she would kind of go to the museum and do things, and she would take me with her. And she remembers doing that, I guess. I don't know. Maybe. I was young. I wasn't really in school. My brother was already in grade school, and so I would start to do stuff with her and go to museums and go to stores. When she would go, she. Which are two things that become pivotal in my life, which is kind of crazy.
- [05:38]
Laura Vinroot Poole
So you spent a lot of time around the newspaper and understood at a young age that that was a career, that was something that you could do.
- [05:45]
Ivan Shaw
Yes. I mean, my dad was a real newspaper. He was a salesman, but he was a true newspaper guy. He became publisher of a paper, and we would go to the presses at night, and writers and photographers from the newspaper would have dinner. They'd come over for dinner. And so I was definitely in it. I don't think I was like, I want to have a career in newspapers, but I certainly had the bu. And when I look what happened to me and the thing, what I was drawn to, it makes perfect sense. Right. I was more a magazine guy, but my dad ended up. He became a newspaper publisher. It's kind of a long story, which I won't get too into. But he ended up in 1986, starting his own newspaper company. And weirdly, I had this weird thing. I didn't know where I wanted to go to college. I just didn't really. I wasn't that focused. But somebody had said Clark University In Worcester, Massachusetts would be a good place. We went to like a college career counselor because I didn't really. My guidance counselor was like, you know, hopeless. Like he was like a bodybuilder at a big public high school. He was like, yeah, you should go to college. And it didn't go much farther than that. But we went to this college guy and he was like, well, you know, maybe Clark University. And I think I had kind of was on my radar. Anyway, so I applied and I was waitlisted, but I got in. But weirdly, my father was wanted to build a company and he was in the process of buying a newspaper called Business Worcester, which was a bi weekly business newspaper in Worcester, Massachusetts, which is where Clark is located. He was like, well, why don't we go up and see Clark? And I am trying to close this deal Anyway, so we drove to Worcester because he was in the process of closing the deal. And we sort of got on. We pulled up at the campus and we walked around. He's like, what do you think? I was like, it looks really nice. He's like, yeah, it looks really nice. And you know, you have to understand, my dad was a guy who went to night school at City College of New York for 13 years and worked all day.
- [07:28]
Laura Vinroot Poole
So yeah, wow.
- [07:29]
Ivan Shaw
You know, he was a kid from the Bronx. He lived with his parents. He had no under sense and not in a bad way, but he just didn't like the idea of going to college. And this whole experience, this360 did not exist. He had just gone to night school. My mother had gone to college but was a dancer. So she wasn't really that interested in it, you know, like super. She wasn't super into it. My grandfather was an academic, so it wasn't like I was like really focused on, you know, the college experience. I just kind of walked onto campus and I was like, it looks fine, it's nice. There's trees, there's brick buildings. And that night we had dinner with the guy who was he was going to eventually buy the business from, so.
- [08:03]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Right.
- [08:04]
Ivan Shaw
But that got me to Worcester and got me into photography because I had been working at a restaurant when I was in school in high school and making money and I wanted to work. And he said, go down to the newspaper, they'll find a job for you. And I got there and the publisher said, what are you interested in? I said, well, you know, I kind of, I'm interested in photography. And he said, do you have a portfolio? And I was like, of course not. I had Like a pack of pictures. But they put me to work in the dark room just as a helper. And I was working for a young photographer named Christopher Navin, who's a 25, 24 year old guy who was brilliant. And I started working for him, just helping him in the dark room. And he taught me photography. And we're still friends today, you know, wow, 40 years later. And I learned it just totally. And I was going to school at the same time.
- [08:45]
Laura Vinroot Poole
What did you study in school?
- [08:46]
Ivan Shaw
Art history and philosophy. I was super into philosophy. You know, I had this thing at college where you're supposed to take like the introductory class, then you take the next level, next level. And I ignored all that. I would never call myself a rebel, but I seem to ignore that. And I would just pick classes that I was interested in one. So I took a modern European philosophy class, which was an advanced class. I walk in the first day, the guy's a really tough professor. He said, if this is your first philosophy class, get out. And I ignored him. And I ended up getting, I think an A or a B in that class I got super into. And then I walked into an art criticism class, which again was an advanced class, which I didn't belong into. And I just completely clicked, like immediately. Like, I was like, oh, yeah. So I was asking questions of the professor and I was like. And she came up, she was like, are you a history student? I was like, no. And I just. It clicked, you know, it really clicked.
- [09:34]
Laura Vinroot Poole
It sounds like you had a really, really engaged and enriching college experience, which it sounds unexpected for something you just happened upon.
- [09:42]
Ivan Shaw
Yes, I did. But if I, if I look back, the only regret, because I worked every day and I got so into photography, I didn't really spend a lot of time with people, socializing, hanging out. And to be blunt, I didn't have a lot of friends in college. I was very much a loner. I was a loner in high school too. I was so. I was not really social. I didn't have much of a social life. I had a few friends, but. And a part of that was, I think, just who I am. But also because every day I would get up, I'd go to work, then run back, I'd go to class and I'd run back to work. And I had this kind of alternate life at the newspaper that now looking back, I'm really glad that happened because it shaped the rest of my career. But like, I never did, like junior year abroad or summer. Like, I spent all summer.
- [10:27]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah, I was gonna say, what'd you do in the summers?
- [10:29]
Ivan Shaw
Nothing. I had to work and stay because then once I got involved, they were like, we really need you. Because I started taking pictures for business Wooster. And then we opened up a magazine, Worcester Monthly. And I went home the first summer and then I came back and, and Chris and everybody, they're like, you know, dude, we need you to stay. Like, you work here. You can't just disappear for three months and we're not going to get another person. And they're like, you need to stay. So I stayed all the next couple of summers and it was tough because everybody had left. I didn't have a lot of friends to begin with and any friends that I did have were gone. So I had Christopher, my friend from work, and a few people. But I mean, I spent a lot of time alone because I would work and that was it. And I wasn't going to school and maybe I took a class or two, but my weekends were like super quiet, quiet. Like I was really alone, which at 20 or 21, you know, when you're older it's like. But it's tough. But looking back, it was totally worth it. But I was completely immersed, invested. Like there was no, like, oh, I, you know, I watch these movies and I see like normal people or something, right? Which is that wonderful series on Hulu from the. Sally Rooney's book. And I see the college students, like in the south of France and in Italy hanging out and like hooking up and, you know, going to museums. And I'm like, wow, that, that, that, that's actually what you were supposed to do in college. Sit in an office building in Worcester, Mass. You know, which I like, you know, working it, like, but, but, you know, and I, I say that facetious. It was fantastic. First of all, the people I worked with were terrific and brilliant and I learned so much. But they would do this thing where they would say, okay, Ivan, you have to go photograph this person, Marcia Hunt or something. Here's her phone number. Call her and make an appointment, right? And there was no Internet, right, so you couldn't search it. She owns a real estate development company, you know, in Fitchburg. And I'd be like, hi, Marcia, this is Ivan Shaw from Business Wooster. Can I photograph you tomorrow at 2? And she'd say, sure, or whatever, you know, make an appointment. And I would drive out there knowing nothing.
- [12:26]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Wow.
- [12:27]
Ivan Shaw
Not even having a picture of the person. And I'd have to walk into the room and a. Connect with this person and have like this human experience and B, figure out what picture to take like in 15 minutes. And I would shoot like one roll of film, like black and white, 35 millimeter. That was it.
- [12:46]
Laura Vinroot Poole
And develop it yourself.
- [12:48]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah, and develop it. Go back to the darkroom and develop myself. So I had to kind of process all of this, like in 20 minutes. And I think it really helped me, like as a 19, 20 year old kid and to be thrown into a situation with an adult profess and have this like one hour relationship. And it was wild. It was absolutely wild. And such an experience. Yeah. But very different than college.
- [13:13]
Laura Vinroot Poole
I've done a lot, 150 or so of these. And I don't know that I ever. You know, people sort of glaze over college. Like nobody ever. But I find your experience really interesting and how sort of it really dialed you in on skills, actually. Really. Which I think is really rare.
- [13:31]
Ivan Shaw
You know, that's the thing. I mean, I'm so. When I look back, I'm so. I feel so fortunate that I found that thing that I was kind of good at that I really liked. You know, the part of me is a little sad that I didn't get to like really be 20 and 21 years old the same way.
- [13:48]
Laura Vinroot Poole
So from Clark, how did you get your. You had your first internship at Vanity Fair. How did that happen?
- [13:54]
Ivan Shaw
All I knew is I wanted to go to New York and become a photographer, right? And I got into NYU graduate school in photography. And I was like, okay, now my parents will pay for it. You know, get to New York. That's all I got. I just want to get to New York and be a photographer. It wasn't too expensive. It was this program. It was a big deal. So I got to New York and I was in this program, which was really wild because it was this far out. Fine art photography program. Of course, me being me, I didn't do any real research and find the right program. I just was like, I want to go to New York. NYU is a good school if I get it. There's a program I just signed up and I got in, you know, and so I get there and it's super far out, right? Like, my advisor is like this way out artist for the East Village. There was a lot of women. There was really, at the time of Francesca Woodman was super. Everything was super political. It's terrible. But my joke was that, like, in class all the women were doing nude self portraits, right? So I used to joke it was like the ultimate high school fantasy. You got to See every girl in class naked. But it literally was like that. You know, my favorite one was that one of the women did a picture of herself naked on a bike. And they put it. She puts it up, and the teacher says, what does everybody think? And I said, nice bike. I really like the bike. And everybody cracked up. And she came up after me, and she was like, you know, I really actually appreciated that because, you know, I was kind of just joking on the picture, and you were the one person to take it seriously. But anyway, I ended up got invited to a dinner in the East Village with a friend of mine from Clark. He said, you know, we're going to meet at the corner of First. I don't know, First Street, Nave Avenue A or something. So I'm standing at this corner, and this other guy is standing there. And I said, hey, are you Brian's friend? He said, yeah. He said, my name is Howard. Turns out he was an editorial assistant at Vanity Fair. And he said, you know, I sit right next to the assistant to the photography director. I said, wow, you know, because I'm looking for an internship. And at time, Vanity Fair was kind of my favorite magazine. It was really, like, at one of its peaks. It was phenomenal, just phenomenal. And he said, you know, if you give me your resume, I'll. I'll give it to her. She's really nice to my friend. Sit right next to her. He was working for Michael Caruso, who was an editor at Vanity Fair, who had been the editor of the Village Voice. So one of these, like, really fantastic New York magazine editors. So I. It was the old days. I went up to 350 Madison Avenue with my resume, and I gave it to him. And I got an interview with the photography director, Elizabeth Biondi, who was super tough, but I got through it. And she sent me Susan White, the photo editor, and they gave me the internship and at Vanity Fair, photo department. And that is. Starts February 1991. And it's really amazing because I look back and, like, how fast I got to New York in September of 1990. I got the internship in February of 1991. And then I was hired back as the freelance assistant in the photo department in July of 1992. Wow. So, like, by. From September 1992, like, my whole life changed.
- [16:41]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah. And did you finish the graduate program?
- [16:44]
Ivan Shaw
So this is the other funny story. I was going to the school, and I was really struggling, and I was so immersed in Vanity Fair and everything that was happening that I decided at one point it was time for me to register for the next semester, right? And I get at the train. I get on the train at Grand Central, and I get off. I'm supposed to go to, like, Union Square or Astor Place, and I get off at 23rd street, and I'm like, I can't do this. This. I can't go back to school. All I want to do is work at Vanity Fair. I just don't care. And I get back to work, and I call my parents, and I'm like, don't be mad at me, but I just can't do this anymore. Like, I found my calling. I just can't do this. And they're like, okay, we're kind of upset because there's somebody on this, but, like, we really want you to get a master's degree. But, like, my parents are big. We're amazing, you know? And they were like, okay, we're not. You know, we're gonna honor that. Like, you. You don't want to go to school. We're not gonna force you to go to school.
- [17:31]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [17:32]
Ivan Shaw
And so I quit it. And then. And all along, my parents were like, you know, you didn't have much left to go. And then I finally decided about a year, year and a half later, you know what? I should really finish my master's. And the brilliant thing was, I went back to. I made an appointment with my advisor, and he's kind of this great guy, amazing guy, but he was just kind of like. And I think he did kind of forgotten that I had disappeared for, like, a year. Like, I don't think it was, like, really a big deal for him. It was east village. It was 90. Whatever. It's cool. And I came back, I said, you know, I really want to. I just want to take some classes. What do I need to do to finish? And he was great. Great. And he kind of was like, okay, you take these classes. You got to do a final project, and we'll get you through it. I did, and I got my master's. So I have a master's degree from nyu, which is great. You know, it was funny, but he was super cool about it.
- [18:14]
Laura Vinroot Poole
From Vanity Fair, did you. You went from intern to working full time, Right?
- [18:20]
Ivan Shaw
So intern to being a freelance photo assistant in the photo department. And my boss at the time, Susan White, who was wonderful, who's the photo editor of Vanity Fair, is huge impact in my career. She knew I wanted a staff position. And so, you know, he benefits and all that kind of stuff. And there was this just opening for the assistant to Charles Churchward, who was the design director, brilliant design director of Vanity Fair. And she kind of put my name in for it, you know, God bless her. She kind of put me up for the job. But it was also this weird thing where I went in one day. It's weird how things happen. We were doing a story on Guy Bourdin, the famous French fashion photographer of the 70s. And they said, go into Charlie's office. He has all these old French Vogues. You got to go through it and find some stories or something like that. That. And I was sitting in his office with him, going through all of these old French folks from the 70s, which he had in his office because he was obsessed, you know, and we just clicked. We got on really well and we started talking about photography. I'm like, wow. Like, this guy totally gets it. And he's like, amazing. And I just. In my mind, I'm like, this is the guy I want. I want to work for this guy. And so I started. I got that job in May of 1994. And then in November of 1994, they made him design director of Vogue. And he called me into his office and he said, I can bring one person with me to Vogue. Do you want to come with me? And I was like, sure.
- [19:43]
Laura Vinroot Poole
So tell me about that first day at Vogue. How did you feel?
- [19:46]
Ivan Shaw
Well, it was very funny. I mean, it was. There were a couple things. One I remember distinctly. I was. We both dressed up shirts and ties, like. Dressed up like old school, you know, shirt ties. And I remember them calling me into Anna's office and in introducing myself to Anna and said, hello. And she got up and we shook hands. And that was my first time meeting Anna. And it was funny because when I got there, I was kind of confused. I couldn't understand why you would do a story on belts. I couldn't understand why you would do a story on nails. I kind of understood, like a big fascist. But, like, why do they do a story about, how do you do a story on belts? How do you do a story on nails? So I was a little confused because I had looked at Vogue, but not through the lens of somebody who's really buying or shopping. Or I just was like, wow, that picture's amazing. Those pictures are amazing. But I didn't understand the process or the fashion point of view. But I thought to myself, oh, look, I'm going to give it two years because this good, good opportunity, and I'll just try to make it work for two years, and then I'll see, and then so my joke for, like, the next 20 years is I was just giving it another two years. You know, I had that job. I started. Yeah, November 94, and then in the beginning of 1996, the photo editor at the time left, and I got the job In April of 1996, I became photo editor of Vogue. I was 26 years old.
- [21:03]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Did you know exactly what that entailed before you got the job?
- [21:06]
Ivan Shaw
No. Yeah, yeah, I knew I was. I knew I was over my head for sure. I was a little over my head. You know, I think there's the. You know, there's that Navy SEALS thing about being 30% over your head. Like, they always say that you go 30% beyond your limit, beyond that, you're probably going to, like, die. Right? You're going to get in trouble. So, like, you. If you're, like, underwater, you can go 30% longer than you think you can go. Right. Your comfort zone. I was definitely at, like, 30, 40% the first year doing that job.
- [21:36]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Had Charles had that job before?
- [21:38]
Ivan Shaw
No, he was an art director. This was kind of interesting. He was always an art director. He was never a photo editor, but he knew it. He had worked with a lot of photo editors. He was tough. I mean, he's one of my closest friends still to this day. We just saw him this summer, but he was tough, too. You know, Ed is tough, and he was tough.
- [21:51]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Tough about, like, quality or details or. Yeah, all of it.
- [21:55]
Ivan Shaw
They set the bar really high and, you know, they set the bar really high, and, like, you just had to hit it, and otherwise you were done.
- [22:03]
Laura Vinroot Poole
How did your life transform when you became the photo editor?
- [22:06]
Ivan Shaw
It was completely immersive. I mean, when I first got to New York, I didn't have, again, like, I didn't have much of a life. One or two friends. It was totally immersive. I mean, it was so intense to get up and go and do that all day. And first of all, the magazine was doing really well. I had so much work to do. There was so many shoots. There was so much that needed to be done.
- [22:25]
Laura Vinroot Poole
A thick magazine.
- [22:26]
Ivan Shaw
It was a thick magazine. Every issue was 3, 400 pages. September was 800 pages. We were working constantly, had an enormous amount of responsibility. And I was also working in, like, this alternative universe of, like, all of these amazing fashion women and some of the greatest fashion editors of all time. I mean, you got to remember, you go down the hall. When I first got there, you had Grace Coddington, Phyllis Posnick, Camilla Nickerson, Branagh Wolf. Tawny comes five A couple years later, then Tawny Paul Kovaco. I mean, like, it was crazy.
- [23:01]
Laura Vinroot Poole
And did you know who they were just from being there? Yeah, right.
- [23:05]
Ivan Shaw
I did. Once I got. I didn't. I didn't know the fashion world. You know, I didn't really have any exposure to the fashion world, so I didn't really know who they were. And they weren't famous yet too. You know, they were Vogue editors and they were really known in the industry, but they weren't famous the way they are now.
- [23:19]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Exactly.
- [23:20]
Ivan Shaw
But I look back and then in Anna Winter and like, you know, and that was the thing also. And even going back to Vanity Fair, the level of people I thought when I was a photographer, it would take me 30 years to get to that level. And suddenly when I got to Vanity Fair originally, Annie Leibovitz was walking down the hall. Her Brits, Helmut Newton, Michel Comte, some of the best, you know, best photographers ever working there, and the writers, too. And I was thinking about it recently, sort of prepping for this, that, you know, John Richardson was writing art, you know, Picasso's biographer, Dominic Dunn was working at Vanity Fair. Christopher Hitchens, Frank DeFore, Nancy Just Sayles, Maureen Orth. I mean, amazing writers. And it was the same thing at Vogue. It was like, again, Annie. Well, Annie just started as she starts to work in the mid-90s. But Irving Penn and Helmut Newton are working, contributing regularly to the magazine.
- [24:13]
Laura Vinroot Poole
That's crazy.
- [24:14]
Ivan Shaw
And then David Bailey and, you know, and all the others, and Arthur Elgort and Herb Ritz and Annie, of course, then Steven Meisel is at his height during that time.
- [24:22]
Laura Vinroot Poole
You have the primary relationship with these photographers?
- [24:25]
Ivan Shaw
Well, it's more complicated than that. I'm more producer. The edits actually happened in the art department. So photo editor was actually a misnomer. I was not editing film, I was producing shoots. So I had this really great thing. So for the center of the magazine, the. Well, we had all these major photographers. And so I would do the bookings, but the fashion editors would work with them. So if Grace Coddington was working with Steph on a story, they didn't really need my input. I wasn't going to add anything to that conversation. I was just making sure. I would talk to Steven's agent and I would say, okay, we're going to do it this week. Grace, are you okay on the week of the 19th? Yes, she's fine. And then I was kind of done until the shoot was done. And then I would pick up and handle all the post production. So for the major stories I was generally not really, unless it was a feature. I had more one on one contact. And I'll tell you a story about that, which I told at the Mint. But for the front of the magazine, the front sections, like View, Vogue's View with Katherine Bath, and people are talking about in the beauty section, I got to hire the photographers and the stylists and produce the shoots creatively, completely on my own for the most part, which I look back and it's crazy.
- [25:29]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [25:30]
Ivan Shaw
They just kind of let me do it, you know, and, you know, and I failed a fair amount. I mean, there was plenty of shoots that were like, what would. I feel like? Anna would look at me like, what a disaster. Like, what were you thinking? You know, which was a lesson that I learned actually, through all of that, which actually comes from Sidney Lumet's book Making Movies. And he writes in the book that you can be successful, successful while still failing some of the time.
- [25:53]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [25:53]
Ivan Shaw
And that was profound for me.
- [25:54]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [25:55]
Ivan Shaw
Because I was like, holy. Like, yes, I can. You know, I. Because every time I shoot got killed. Because Anna had no qualms. I feel like something just done. And for good reason. I mean, they kept the bar really high, but it would be like a stab in the heart, you know, every. Like, oh, my God, it was such a failure. But I kind of had that point where, like, no, I can still be successful at this while still failing some of the time. And that was exactly the way it was. But it was just incredible. I mean, the women and everybody that was there, everybody was so good. As somebody, once you always felt like you were with the best of whatever it was, the best of that kind of person was there. Jeffrey Steingarten was writing the food column. Jeffrey was brilliant. Julia Reed was writing on politics. She was brilliant. You know, I mean, it was really. And then I just had, like. I got to talk to, like, amazing people. And John Galliano came in. Andre Leon Talley was there, who was a huge impact on my life and everyone's life who knew him. And I can remember, which is probably 94, 95, no later than 96. John came to Vogue, and Andre walked him down the hallway, and he introduced me to John Galliano. And he was like, this is Ivan Shaw as our photo editor, which was amazing that he bothered to do that, because I certainly was not pretty, Not. Not high on the hierarchy at that point. And I. I was introduced to John Galliano when he said hello. And I just was like, I could still stand. I could still feel myself standing in the doorway in the hallway and shaking hands with John Galliano. And it's again, it's like 95, 96.
- [27:15]
Laura Vinroot Poole
I was going to ask what. What kept you at Vogue for 20 years? But I don't. I don't know that. That. I mean, it's that it was so.
- [27:22]
Ivan Shaw
Exciting and so challenging and it just. And we were successful. Like, we were great at it, you know? And I remember there were nights I would have, like, 10 shoots to do for, like, the front of the book, say. And I would come home at night, and I'd be sitting there with a piece of paper, and I was like, okay, Here are the 10 stories. I have to figure out a photographer and a fashion editor for each story. And I would start writing names down. I thought, how exciting. I mean, it's like. But the power, but also just super exciting.
- [27:47]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Dream. The dream of it.
- [27:48]
Ivan Shaw
And then I would see the story of Vogue magazine. And when it. It was like, yes. And it was just so exciting. And then Anna was just this force of nature. So we started doing some other magazines, we started doing exhibitions. We did books with the Met Ball. Like, all of that happens simultaneously at that time, too.
- [28:07]
Laura Vinroot Poole
I mean, I think that was when you. I know you knew you had it, but when you realized what your archives were.
- [28:12]
Ivan Shaw
We had a number of archivists. They used to call it the morgue, believe it or not, because it's where things went to die. But a gentleman named Charlie Shipes, who's still a friend of mine, became head of the archive in, I think, early 90s, early mid-90s. And he was the one who called it, turned coined it the Conde Nast Archive, and started digitizing things and started to kind of get his arms around it. Charlie is this absolutely brilliant, amazing person. He had worked for David Hockney, and he understood the art world, but he understood photography. And he started to give it shape, I think. So I think he deserves the credit with giving it shape. I, to be honest, didn't spend that much time looking. I was so focused on getting through every issue that I did. Looking back. Well, there's two things. One, you know, I always just say the best and worst part of my job is every month I had to recreate my job, right? Like, so at the end of the month, I had to start all over again for zero what I had done the month before. But Anna's focus was always, you know, we always look forward. And that comes, I think, also from Alexander Lieberman, our great editorial director. Always look forward. Just keep going forward. And I Think there was just so much to do that I was like, I just need to focus on what's in front of me. You know, that's. I kind of wish I had had more perspective, but I just didn't have really the brain. I don't think I had the bandwidth.
- [29:26]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah, I'm like, did you even take a vacation in those 20 years?
- [29:29]
Ivan Shaw
Not a lot. And my friend might see even some of the people work for me. Like, Ivan, you never take vacations. My idea, and this is interesting because it comes up in my marriage. My idea of a vacation was going to LA for four days to see all my friends who I worked in la, which I loved, and I love my friends there. And it was super fun. It's always hot and sunny and I'd stay at a cool hotel and we'd have fun. But when I first got married or Lisa and I first got together, I would like, let's go on vacation. I would take her to LA for four days and finally she was like, you know, that's not a vacation. Like, going to LA and having dinner with your friends from work is not actually like a vacation. It's more like a work trip that you're bringing me along. And I was like, you know, you're right. Like, it was a really good life lesson for me. I'm like, oh, so we need to like, go to Mexico and like lay on the beach for a week or, you know, it was really hard. I think there was so much coming at me all the time that it was very hard to switch off. And you know, honestly, the. The main people at Vogue never really switched off either. I mean, they would go away in August and stuff like that, but, you know, they were just. Everybody kind of worked all the time and the photographers would disappear in August, they disappear Christmas. But other than that, it was like full on. And we still, you know, always had to do another.
- [30:42]
Laura Vinroot Poole
How do you think your life would have been different if you hadn't worked at Vogue?
- [30:45]
Ivan Shaw
I don't think I would have made it as a photographer. And I say that because I think I was pretty talented as a portrait photographer. I was okay, but I don't know if I would have had the confidence to be a freelancer my whole life. You have to have a real confidence to make it as a freelancer and a will and a, like a fearlessness that I don't think I had, especially because going back, my dad lost his business business in 1990 with the SNL crisis. And so, and that was very difficult for me. It was very difficult for my family. And I also. I worked for him at the time, so everybody at work turned on him. It was really ugly. Paychecks didn't come through. It got really ugly. And so I went through that with him, and that was very scary and a real life lesson. And so I think there was a part of me that did not want an unstable financial life. I wanted stability. And Conde Nast not only brought me glamour and all these other amazing things, but it brought this tremendous sense of st. Ability.
- [31:40]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [31:40]
Ivan Shaw
So I think I would have found something else stabilizing now. I don't know what that would have. Maybe in the art world. Probably in the art world, I think there was enough of my brain. I don't think I ever would have made it, like, in an investment bank or something like that. I just. I think there's. This part of me is like, wow, I wish I had gone to work for Goldman Sachs in 1990 because, like, you know, I'd be. Love my. I'd be calling in from my yacht right now, you know, so there's a part. I have friends who chose that path and I'm like, okay, they have really nice lives, you know, they do have. All right, so there's a part of me, what if I had. You know? But I clearly was not wired for that.
- [32:15]
Laura Vinroot Poole
So now you're corporate photography director at Conde Nast and the visuals editor of World of Interiors. What do you love about this new role?
- [32:23]
Ivan Shaw
I love both. So. And I have this weird, perfect mix. So as corporate photography director, I oversee the US Archive of. For Conde Nast, and I work with our sales teams and our editorial teams. I'm kind of telling the story of Conde Nast and our brands. Vogue, Vanity Fair, the New Yorker, Glamour, all these. Tq, all these amazing brands. So I have this wonderful kind of look back at the history of photography, the history of the company. I love the company. It's a huge part of who I am. I've spent most of my life now at Conde Nast. And the flip side is I'm the visuals editor at the World of Interiors. And that happened about three years ago when Hamish Bowles came on as editor in chief. He needed a little help for the first couple of issues because what happens, you have regime change when a new editor, everybody left, right? Everybody had been at World of Interiors with rupert for, like, 30 years. He left. They all left. That's what happens. And he was like. He was. He needed some help to get through. So Anna called me and it was kind of A funny story. But she called me in and was like, you know, can you help Hamish get through the first issue or two? And I was like, of course. And then he came in and the two of us. And then I started doing it, and I was like, wow, this is amazing, because funnily enough, after I left Vogue, which was 2016, I kind of said to myself, and I said to Lisa, like, I don't ever want to be a photo editor again. Like, I was at photo. I was photo editor of Vogue. It's never going to be any better. Like, I just need to move on and, like, it'll never be any better than this. And. But in the back of my mind, I was like, yeah, but the one magazine I would love to do is the World of Interiors, because it's like. Like a lot of people, it's my. Was kind of my other favorite magazine other than Vogue. It's amazing. And. But I always thought, well, I don't know, it's, like, in London and, like, it's never gonna happen. But I was like, yeah, you know, like, that would be, like, if I had. The only job I'd love to do is, be, like, photo editor, World of Interiors. So then when it. I kind of went back to Anna after I did the first issue, and I said, like, I really want this job, too. I'll wear both hats. I'll figure it out. And she was absolutely amazing. She got on the phone with me and we went back and forth and talked to HR and stuff, and she figured it out for me.
- [34:20]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [34:20]
Ivan Shaw
And I said, look, I'll wear both hats. You won't notice. They'll be seamless. And I did it. I just did it.
- [34:25]
Laura Vinroot Poole
And a little bit of a different part of your brain, I guess.
- [34:28]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah. Well, I've always loved design. And Hamish and I had done a book called around that time, Horse to Pea, Horse to Vogue, which is his interiors work. Work from the 60s through the 80s. So I loved interior design. I think a lot of people in fashion do. I think it's this kind of. This obvious counterpart. And so I definitely had an interest in it. And so. But I always thought, like, I had worked at Vanity Fair and I had worked at Vogue, but I'd never worked at a design magazine. And so I also, in my mind was like, I'd love to work at a design magazine, you know, because I haven't really done that. So when it came up, it happened. I just thought, I love the archive. Great, but I've got to try to do this, too.
- [35:01]
Laura Vinroot Poole
And Talk to me a little bit about the archive. How big is it and what are the years that it spans?
- [35:06]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah, so we have about 1.2 million images. We have over a million images. It really starts with, let's say, the very first issue of Vogue, which we have December 17, 1892. Up until we still have digital files, we kind of stopped for the most part in 1978. Generally speaking, copyright laws changed. So for the most, most part, things started to be returned to the photographers. We had some photographers, Irving Penn, Patrick Demarchelier, Arthur Alcort, which they continued to. We had special agreements with them. So we continued to receive material into the 90s and early 2000s. After that, everything becomes digital. So it's not really something that sits in the physical archive anymore.
- [35:50]
Laura Vinroot Poole
When did they recognize that that was important to own those images?
- [35:54]
Ivan Shaw
Well, the interesting thing is right from the get go, Condi saw the Val. Conde Nast man saw the value of holding on to the material. And I can't tell you exactly why, but he saw value in it. And he, you know, he hired the best people. He gave them the resources they needed to do their best work, and he held onto the material. And the copyright laws allowed for that. So there wasn't an issue there at the time. But I also. There just something he saw. He saw it, a lot of other publishers didn't. And then they either gave it back or they just threw it away. And I'm so thankful that he did that. And the reason I say that is because with some of these photographers, without the material that we had, they would have been lost to history.
- [36:36]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [36:37]
Ivan Shaw
Like they say, well, they would have just gone back to the estate or the family. Well, a lot of cases there was no. And there's still to this day, there is no some of the photographers. There is. There is no estate, There is no family. There is nobody to take care of it.
- [36:48]
Laura Vinroot Poole
When you took over as the head of it, did you take over from somebody else? I mean, had this been an active.
- [36:54]
Ivan Shaw
Process, went through a couple of versions, iterations. They had a couple. We brought in a new vice president and then they brought in another vice president. There was a lot of change. Changes. I worked for about five different people in six years. So it was a lot of changes. And just sort of through that process, I ended up kind of being where I am today. I was kind of part of it. I was working with the licensing group at one point, but as things kind of shook out, I ended up kind of being responsible for the US Archive and huge Job. Yeah.
- [37:21]
Laura Vinroot Poole
What's been your biggest personal or professional struggle to date?
- [37:25]
Ivan Shaw
That's a good one. You know, I think the hardest. Well, from a sort of macro level, I think, think so much has happened and people talk about legacy media. I mean, people started talking about, you know, print is dead 15 years ago, which was not true. But it's really, it was painful to go through that process of be feeling like you're on top of the world and magazine working at a magazine is the center of the universe and you're on top of the world and all those cliches and to seeing people, to see it start to kind of deteriorate in terms of the business environment because the landscape changed, like. Right. It's not anybody's fault. It's just the world changed.
- [38:02]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Did you feel it early? Like, did you understand that early?
- [38:05]
Ivan Shaw
I, you know, I saw it and I am definitely a worrier by nature. Anyone will tell you. And I think honestly, I probably overreacted to it because of what I had gone through with my dad and watching him lose his business. I was hypersensitive to that kind of thing happening. And so I think when I first started to feel that the, you know, the floor was starting to cave in, I was probably overreacted, kind of like, oh, my God. And I think a lot of people didn't. And the truth is, I think there will be magazines around for a long time time. And. And we're doing a lot of things now digitally that I think we're brilliant at. And globally, we're doing a lot of really interesting things at condest and we have amazing people here. But I think that was really hard. You know, like, I'm a guy who struggles with confidence for sure. You know, I'm not like a hyper, super confident person. Some people are. It's just not my DNA. I, you know, I always feel like I have to prove myself. So, you know, I probably would benefit from being more confident, but I just, it's who I am.
- [39:01]
Laura Vinroot Poole
What did you once believe about yourself that that's no longer true?
- [39:05]
Ivan Shaw
I always thought that I was kind of the loner, you know, and I kind of was. And I always thought I'm really a kind of an outsider, you know, I know everybody says that and, you know, but I always felt a little bit like an outsider. But interestingly, now I've been out of Vogue for eight years. I'm still obviously work at Conde now. I talked to Anna and everyone, but I really feel like I'm part of this family.
- [39:26]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [39:26]
Ivan Shaw
And it's kind of amazing. Like, Tani Goodman is a close friend of mine and I have lunch with her. Phyllis Posnick is a close friend. Lunch with her, and I see her. I went to a gallery opening recently and on the Uptown a Gagosian exhibition, which I ended up writing for for World about in World of Interiors. But Grace Coddington was there, who were, you know, obviously at Vogue. Samira Nassar, who worked with me at Vogue and who's now at Harper's Bazaar. Lauren Santa Domingo, who worked with me at Vogue. Tabitha Simmons, who's still there. I worked with Vogue.
- [39:55]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Old Home Week.
- [39:55]
Ivan Shaw
Connection. I felt this, like, connection. And we're all kind of like we were, you know, and we spent so many years together, certainly grace in 30 to 2020. And. And I feel this connection with Anna too, you know, And I've known Anna for 30 years, 32 years, you know, and some of the photographers. So I really do feel like I'm part of this family. And it's really. Even Polly Mellon, before she passed. Maybe she recipes. I never actually worked with Polly. I missed her by a couple years, but I got to know her later. And I had worked on getting her archive sent to scad had in Savannah, the school. And I spent time with Polly and we had this really sort of visceral connection, even though we. I missed her by a couple of years, but she was like a Vogue editor, you know, and I. We, like, knew one another. Like, we connected and we had that thing. And so that's what I really love. I look back and I thought after that gallery opened, it was Lisa. And I thought, wow, like, you know, that's kind of my other family, you know, and those relationships are not going to go way.
- [40:53]
Laura Vinroot Poole
No, the little. I know you even I do know you're a great friend. I mean, two people. So I think. I don't think you're a loner at all.
- [41:01]
Ivan Shaw
Okay, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm better.
- [41:04]
Laura Vinroot Poole
I mean, I think you're. You're such a deep, close friend to people.
- [41:07]
Ivan Shaw
Thank you for saying that. I'm feel a lot of the same things for you. One of the things I think happened that I became more social as I got older. I really value my friendships and I really value supporting people and helping my friends. You're like, I really, really value that. And even now I'm writing for WorldOfInteriors.com and I love writing for WorldOfInteriors.Com and the thing I like writing about most is when I get to write about My friends. And I've had that happen a couple of times recently. Like, I've got Ruth, Ruth Runberg, who's from Charlotte. We just featured one of her Charlotte candles. Every month we do editor's picks. And they were like, okay, it's Valentine's Day. And I was like, oh, Queen Charlotte would be amazing. A pick one. And so I emailed Ruth and she was like, totally. And I'm like, I love that. Like, I love supporting my friends and doing stuff.
- [41:56]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Make the world small.
- [41:58]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah. And it's like, good stuff. Like, it deserves to be there. And I've written stories about friends of mine and about their homes and things like that, and I love that. So I really do value my friendships, you know, because I know what it's like to not have a lot of friends. Yeah, you know, it's different. Yeah. You know, when I was in college, I was, you know, I definitely was not going to get voted most popular, you know. You know, I got a great experience out of it, but I didn't have that kind of thing you see in the movies, college experience.
- [42:27]
Laura Vinroot Poole
You know, if you could give advice to a photographer at the start of his or her career, what would it be?
- [42:34]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah, I'll give. The piece of advice that I got, which was the hardest question a photographer has to answer, is what to photograph. It's the most basic one. This guy who I worked for, who was brilliant and I assisted a tiny bit, and he said, that's the hardest question. What to photograph. Photograph. And when I would teach, when I. I've taught at School of Visual Arts for a couple years, I always say, like, you got to kind of understand yourself, right? Like, you have to feel like, what are you interested in? Like, but, you know, because the best photographers often, you know, sports photographers, like, you have to kind of. And this photographer said the other thing. He said, look, if you want to be a fashion photographer, you have to know what's out there. You have to know who's shooting, like, what's happening. So the. The advice I would give is try to pick a lane in a way, like, to say, well, I love fashion, or I love interior design, or I really like sports, or I love journalism and politics and really get into that lane. Know who's out there, know who's doing the work, and look at that work and say, okay, well, that's the bar. You know, these are the best people this would do. So I think that's the thing is try to kind of figure yourself out because there are so many photographers, there's so much picture taking now. I mean, endless. You have to find some. Something that you can bring to it that is unique and that the only thing that you can bring to photography is yourself. Because everything else been done. There's so much been done.
- [43:57]
Laura Vinroot Poole
What did you wear to prom in Connecticut?
- [43:59]
Ivan Shaw
Oh, my gosh. Well, you got to understand, it was 1986, so I wore a classic black tux, but I wore it with the red tie. The red convergent. Yes, yes, yes.
- [44:11]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Okay. Shoes, Anything. Converse or.
- [44:14]
Ivan Shaw
No. Oh, my God, I would never do that. I just. It was all rental. It was a rent a tux, rent a shoes. I'm sure they were shiny.
- [44:21]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Did your date wear red?
- [44:23]
Ivan Shaw
Well, this is a crazy story, so. And I never told this story, but I actually took two waitresses that I worked with to my prom that I.
- [44:35]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Know, I love it. It was.
- [44:36]
Ivan Shaw
This is the craziest story. So as I said, I was not, certainly not a popular guy I high school. I had some friends, but I was not. I didn't have a girlfriend or anything like that. But I was working at the. I love to work. And I was working at this restaurant called Rory's. And I was making again, it was part like my whole thing. The thing I did in high school is the same thing I did in college, which I was kind of going to school, but I was really working because I love to work and I was doing really well at work. I was getting paid in cash. It was like a yuppie bar. It was 1986. Things were booming. The restaurant's booming. The guy who owned it was a real, kind of like this very good looking, super successful guy. We. We had all these beautiful waitresses. I was making like a tons of cash. I'd make like $180 cash because the place was just booming. And I had this woman, this girl who was a friend of mine who used to. She used to ride to school with me. And she said to me, like, do you want to go to the prom with me? Right? And I was like, that would be amazing because I never go for it. I was like, I'll go to the prom with you. I was so excited. I'm going to go to the senior prom. And. And then she started dating some guy who went to another school in like a classic high school thing, right?
- [45:39]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [45:39]
Ivan Shaw
And she was. Didn't know what to do because he was upset that she was going to the prom with me. But she was, you know, she was like 16 to 17. She was terrified of dude. She wasn't Going to confront me or say anything like that. So she got one of her friends to kind of come to me. Like, Amy's really, she doesn't know what to do and the guy's giving up Good him. So I was like, I'll just. It's okay, we don't have to go to the prom. Whatever. So I told her one morning on school, I was like, don't worry, we don't have to go to the prom. She was so relieved. She's like, thank you, thank you. But then I was like, what? I don't know why. Oh. So what happened is I go to work at this restaurant where I'm working like Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights, right? And the waitresses were like my big sisters, right? You know, and they're all like 30 years old and they were very beautiful. And, and I, they said, oh, like, what's going on? I said, oh, I'm not going to my prom. Bailed on me. And, and they, and one of the waitresses said, you know, she was like 30 and she was like, I'll go to your prom with you. And then her room mate, well, who lived with her, said, I'll go too. We'll both go with you to your promise. So I had to buy two, I had to sneakily buy two prom bids, right? But it gets worse, it gets worse, it gets worse. So I just set the whole thing up. I get, I bring both corsage. They're like, get a va voom. Like, and we go to the prom and we get there and I'm sitting there with these two 30 year old waitress. Like we're. But like everybody's like, what the f is going on here? And we get up to get our picture taken and I never forget the photographer is like trying to figure out how to pose both of us. And he goes, wow, like hormones these days. Like he just does not know what the hell's going on. And he takes the pictures, which I still have.
- [47:14]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Oh my God.
- [47:15]
Ivan Shaw
And then we just left and went to dinner at a restaurant we just pitched, which was terrible. The interesting thing, and it was a little bit of a life lesson for me, so it was very funny and crazy and you know, the kind of thing at 17 you're like, that's a great idea. But no, you know, but what was interesting is that my, the female friends, the girls at that point, 17, who I was friends with, a few of them who I was friends with at school is particularly Amy, my friend, were like furious with me about it.
- [47:44]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Oh, wow.
- [47:44]
Ivan Shaw
They were really angry. And they basically never really talked to me again. Because they thought you were like making.
- [47:49]
Laura Vinroot Poole
A mockery of the prom.
- [47:50]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah.
- [47:50]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Wow.
- [47:51]
Ivan Shaw
And it was like their big night to look beautiful. Beautiful, huh? And it was really. I didn't understand it. It took me years to kind of unpack it.
- [47:59]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [48:00]
Ivan Shaw
But I realized they were mad. They were kind of like, what the hell? Like, what's wrong? And they wouldn't like talk to me. And they were mad. And I thought it took me a long. You know, you don't get something like that when you're 18. But years after I thought about it and I thought, you know, this was their big night to look beautiful, to be dressed up. And I kind of made a mockery of it. And then there was three empty seats at some table, which is not cool. And. And it was a. It was a life. I mean, it was just. I was crazy thing. But the interesting thing was really a life lesson because I thought, you know, you have to be careful about, you know, your impact on people. You can do something that you think is funny and just happens, but like you can really hurt someone's feelings.
- [48:41]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Wow.
- [48:42]
Ivan Shaw
Especially, you know, you think it's funny. Right. So I really try to be like sensitive to, you know, think about how this is going to impact someone else.
- [48:50]
Laura Vinroot Poole
What a great.
- [48:51]
Ivan Shaw
Yeah. And it was really profound because I think about, first of all, I think it was amazing because these women, the courage and also like the love.
- [48:59]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yes.
- [48:59]
Ivan Shaw
That they kind of showed me that like I was really their friend. I mean, to be a 30 year old woman and go to a high school, get dressed up and go to a high school prom to show up for me.
- [49:08]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah. I love that.
- [49:10]
Ivan Shaw
To show up and to have no fear and be like, I don't care, we're going. And it was Lori and Cindy. Those were their names, Lori and Cindy.
- [49:16]
Laura Vinroot Poole
I love them.
- [49:17]
Ivan Shaw
Lori and Cindy. And one was blonde and the other was brunette.
- [49:20]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Oh, wow.
- [49:20]
Ivan Shaw
And they were so pretty and like, dude. And like, that's a great. They came to my prom. And so really then. And then those few women who were friends of mine who never really talked to me again after. But which is sad. It kind of bums me out. But. And I didn't mean to hurt them.
- [49:35]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Yeah.
- [49:35]
Ivan Shaw
But you know, it does. It's the kind of thing that does make me think, like, okay, really think about your actions here and how they're going to affect people. But anyway, this 1986, you know.
- [49:44]
Laura Vinroot Poole
Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
- [49:45]
Ivan Shaw
Welcome. Thank you.
- [49:48]
Laura Vinroot Poole
What we wore is produced by Capitol and Balto Creative Media. The original song Someone so Enchanting, was composed and performed by Britt Drazda. Please follow us on Instagram at whatwe Were Podcast for additional content and show updates. QueenCityPodcastNetwork.com.