A (2:52)

Yeah.

B (2:53)

And I find it also, you know, when you start to work as well in the way that, that we are at form, you kind of want to draw upon the authenticity and the uniqueness of these things which are, you know, truly that is a part of me and, and it comes out in many ways in what we do. And I think it's very important to think about those references when you're creating things. I think there's a, there's a kind of a wealth to be drawn upon. And you know, certainly for our last collection, which will have been what you saw in Paris that was actually about this kind of sun drenched escapism to this wild west coast place.

A (3:34)

Tell me about that. Tell me, I want to hear about your childhood in New Zealand. Tell me what it was like.

B (3:39)

Well, it was really, I mean, it was very, probably very unusual in terms of, you know, I think it was quite unique. I grew up in a valley which was very close to the beach, if you imagine volcanic black sand and a kind of deadly tide and a storminess and a remoteness and a group of people who were really living off grid in quite a rural area and were quite alternative. And I think they had also chosen to be there and to kind of reject something, you know, to embrace something else. And really it was a very, very artistic community. So most people who found themselves there were painters or they were artists of some kind or writers and expats.

A (4:31)

A lot of them.

B (4:32)

No, they were, they were generations, they were local people. They were, most of them had been there for a few generations. But I think there was kind of a, there was a really beautiful kind of community of people who really valued and kind of supported creativity. So creativity was the highest kind of, you know, if you said, oh, I'm a, I'm going to, I'm going to be a painter, that was just wonderful. It was really celebrated.

A (5:03)

That is so unusual.

B (5:05)

And it was kind of, I think also the heritage. So my mother went to art school. A lot of her art school friends, you know, were also living there and all their children, you know, we were all kind of following in the footsteps of that. And the, the other thing that kind of was interesting is that we as a family didn't have a television. So we didn't have, we were living in this, in this quite remote place. We had, you know, we were encouraged to really do anything we liked creatively and There were really no rules around that. So the kitchen table was allowed to be any form of workshop for any type of thing. And I remember people coming from the city to visit us and saying, oh, gosh. My parents would never, ever allow me to do that. And it was kind of the freedom, I think, that we had was very. Was very informative in. In my upbringing, in my sort of personal experience, because I kind of became a maker of things.

A (6:06)

Do you have siblings, Frances?

B (6:08)

Yes. So there were. There were quite a few of us. So there were four of us.

A (6:11)

Where are you in the mix?

B (6:13)

I was. I was the oldest girl, and I had two brothers and a sister I do. Do still have. And we all got along very well. That's the other thing that was probably unusual, but we had a very good. You know, we would all sit together and just make things. And I just remember this kind of conversation. And at some point I discovered, you know, I mean, we did many things. We used to, you know, screen print and lino cut and paint and draw. And I remember there was like a stained glass window phase. You know, I'm talking about every form of, like, of innovation that you could think of. And we were just experimenting. And I think it was kind of this sort of experimental moment of learning how to technically craft things that really ignited this craftsmanship piece in me. So really, what's intrinsic? What was intrinsic to my development was this idea that I knew I wanted to make things.

A (7:10)

Yeah.

B (7:10)

You know, it was very technical at a young age. And I quite quickly discovered that my mother had a sewing machine, and that became one other. One more, an extension of. Of this moment. And we had this kind of, you know, desire. My sister and I used to spend hours just with the machine making things.

A (7:31)

And where did you source your fabrics?

B (7:34)

It was a good question. I think that because we didn't have, you know, access to a lot of things, I think we were very dependent on. There were a couple of small businesses that would, you know, you could go and you could buy the fabrics that they. They didn't use. And we were very resourceful, and we found these places and. And I was obsessed with fabric. So finding fabric was a very important part of it. And, you know, we would never get a lot. We would get enough to make, but we only needed enough to make our dress.

A (8:00)

And were you making patterns, Frances?

B (8:02)

Yes. So we. That was, you know, inevitably. So first you started and you didn't think you needed that, and then you realized completely, oh, we need to cut. I need to learn to cut. And I Remember cutting, you know, very simple patterns and constructing things and amending them. And so it was really sort of this beginning stage of honing the craft and actually doing it without formal training at that stage.

A (8:26)

So did your mom sew? I mean, who you just completely, completely self taught with the sewing machine?

B (8:31)

She did and she was actually very competent. Now I realize, of course, she was actually very good. She was a very good sewer. But she, she certainly didn't have a sort of background in pattern cutting. And I think I quite quickly realized I could, I could get books out and I could teach myself this. And I started cutting patterns and I would use, I did, I did two things. I would flat cut, but I would also, I had a mannequin that I would drape on. And then I would do things like gather. We had friends and we would sort of gather people, other young, like cool girls and that kind of valley would get together and we would make, we would have like, you know, sessions where we'd try things on each other. And we, because, you know, we needed, we needed. We didn't have a model, so we had all these kind of ways of getting around it. And I distinctly remember, you know, getting to a point where I had to choose what I was going to do for high school or for, or for university. And I remember thinking, I really, really just know that this is what I want to do. And it was very obvious to me for some reason that that was going to be the thing.

A (9:38)

And was there any input from your parents or did anybody say to you also, you should do this?

B (9:46)

I think the thing, the amazing thing is that they were just so supportive of the idea. So they really thought, oh, this is just like, you know, my mother who went to art school thought this was just great. You know, it was amazing. I was going to pursue my creative endeavor. And I think they also saw the seriousness in me. I was very focused. I think I kind of knew that if I, if I really knew what I wanted to do and I put the hard work in, I could do it. This is kind of also in a, you know, the, the backdrop to this is also that, you know, it is quite a, it is quite a community that is not in the epicenter of the fashion, of the global fashion community. So, you know, I was very aware of that. And I, at some point I realized that to really be serious, I had to go and study. And I really decided that going to London was going to be important.

A (10:37)

But before that, was there a place in New Zealand where you could study fashion? And that's where you went?

B (10:43)

Yes. So there was a local university and I went to that university and I studied fashion and I did a BA in fashion and I also studied art history at the same time as some of the papers I added on because I also liked the idea of having this kind of rounded. I think I also had an intuition quite early on that research was going to be important process. And the idea of having this rich cultural research around you to kind of inform and inspire the process was very important to me. It's always been very important to me.

A (11:17)

Did you know anybody in fashion at any time in your life? I mean, at that point, I mean,

B (11:23)

at that point, did I know anybody in fashion?

A (11:25)

No.

B (11:26)

I mean, I, I think there was a very small community. So it was very, I was very isolated in many ways. When I got to London, I met people immediately, but I think, you know, at that time, no, I, you know, I was very sort of self driven and I, and I was. And I think actually one thing that was quite helpful was not being too influenced at that moment, at that genesis by anything. Because I think you, it's very easy to become a kind of a product of a machine, you know, and to have your original voice at that early moment altered or, you know, to be influenced. And I think what was quite good is that I was kind of very much like everything I was doing was. And referencing was kind of was not, you know, it wasn't what other people were doing.

A (12:17)

And also I think lucky that you had that experience in New Zealand before you went to Central St. Central St. Martin's right. Because you really were able to flesh out your ideas of, I don't know

B (12:28)

who you, who you were, who you

A (12:30)

wanted to be before you got there.

B (12:32)

I think, I think I remember arriving and Louise Wilson was the head of

A (12:36)

the course, who was amazing. Yeah.

B (12:38)

And she, she, you know, her reputation, you know, is, is, you know, really famous. But I think I remember this moment when I arrived and I looked around and I thought, because I had, you know, I, I had done everything I could possibly do to get there. I had no way to get there. I had to find a way because it was beyond, completely beyond my own, you know, financial means. So I realized there was one scholarship that you could apply for almost in the whole world as a New Zealander. And that was the only way basically that I could get there. And it, and it didn't even really grant you access. You still had to apply. And so I worked on achieving that scholarship for three years before I won.

A (13:27)

Did you Submit three times or you worked and lost twice or didn't win twice?

B (13:33)

I mean, I think I came runner up twice in my country because it was a global scholarship. So I had to. I had to compete in New Zealand, and then I had to compete against all the other winners of every other country.

A (13:43)

Wow.

B (13:44)

And then the final time I entered, which was the last time I was legitimately allowed to enter because you could only enter as a. As a university student. I actually won. I managed to win it, and that is the only reason that I managed

A (13:56)

to get to St. Martin's okay, wait while you're there. So in this three years of submitting, where are you working? What are you doing? You're finished with university, right?

B (14:06)

No, I was at university while I was doing that. That was. And you could only really be doing this through an institution. An institution. So, yeah, that was the kind of part of the criteria. And so I was doing my. My BA and when I finished my BA I went to do my MA at St Martin's and that was how I managed to do it. And I think I arrived. And I don't know. I don't know if it's true, but it certainly felt like there were not many other New Zealanders.

A (14:34)

Well, I mean, New Zealand's a country of 5 million people.

B (14:36)

You know, I was kind of beating a track through, you know, and I. And I. You know, and I can't tell you how I already. How much I already felt like that was the best thing that had ever. I mean, if that. If it had all ended there and I'd never even worked in the industry, I would have felt like that had been truly, you know, an achievement. And of course, you know, once I got to St. Martin's you know, Louise was. Was one of the most influential people in my life.

A (15:04)

Yeah.

B (15:05)

And, you know, people will tell you stories about her. There's so many things you could say, but, you know, she truly kind of took me and broke me down and built me back up again and taught me so many things, you know, and the craft of, like, the research component, how to research in an original and inspiring way, how important the research is and the inspiration of a collection.

A (15:31)

Yeah.

B (15:32)

And how everything is kind of based upon that, how essential that is and how you would even go about doing that. You know, that all came. All of everything that I use now in my process is all from that formative moment of watching her being taught by her being broken down, you know, and absorbing that. And, you know, she also took people that were quite hard working you know, everybody there was. Was good. You had to be quite good to get there. And then she took those people and she took me, certainly, and she said, you know, this is. This is not good enough. You know, this is. This is. Would you show this to. You know, and then she'd mention some famous name in industry, and you really realize that everything that you had to bring, you had to bring the absolute best thing that you could possibly pull from within yourself. And I think it was that moment of almost treating it. She was always treating us as if we were already in a creative directorship position or we were working in industry and we were bringing in. We were kind of reporting, and it was almost like working in industry, being on that MA and it kind of put you through the process so that if you survived that critique and you survived that, if you could. If you could justify what you were doing and you could believe in it and you could bring that level of work, you could do that outside. Yeah, I think that was kind of very important because I think a lot of people find working very challenging. You know, the real world is. People are. It's brutal, and it's very competitive.

A (17:11)

In fashion especially. Yeah, yeah.

B (17:14)

And I think, you know, the. The rigor of that, of that course and her brilliance, you know, she was in many ways a genius. You know, people will say that, and you. You can't. It is. If you can do it, if you can get through it and you can. You can listen and you can learn from her. That was. That was truly a very important moment. And being in London, you know, being in London. Yeah, because it opened up suddenly. I had access to every magazine. You can't underplay the importance of this. I didn't actually have access to a lot of global publications. So if you think about suddenly, I could actually go and find any publication. I could go to any art gallery I could see. I could meet people who worked for people I revered. You know, it was an amazing. It was an amazing time to be living in London as a young person and to be. While I think Louise was there and it was that old Charing Cross building. The kind of energy of that place was very. It's very mythical now. It. It was. You know, it did actually have an impact on how you felt about what you were doing.

A (18:23)

And when you. So it was an MA program. Had you. Was there anything technical about it or was it all conceptual or had. Like, did you arrive with all of your techniques?

B (18:34)

I mean, I think people. People knew how to put together. You know, they had a Good technical foundation. But, you know, we were certainly expected to produce a collection at the end of it. So, you know, I don't remember actually that being the focus of. I think I. I personally already had that foundation and I. I wasn't focusing on that. I was thinking about how to. I think it was more about, you know, that personal expression, that moment of what it is that you are going to say as an individual, what it. Why, you know, why the world doesn't need another young fashion designer. You know, what is the point of view that you're going to bring that has more, you know, what is authentic as well, your own voice. I think that's what people were thinking. You know, people were focusing on how to. How to bring that from within and to listen to that inner voice of what you truly like, what your taste level is, what are you, what is your. What, you know, what is the thing I. What I didn't realize at the time is that you already are something. You know, I was working, you know, I was already working at St. Martin's on a lot of dresses, on a lot of fluidity and a lot of. There was a lot of beauty in what I was doing. And it wasn't this kind of like Dutch beauty. It wasn't a kind of like, it's beautiful because it's so cool and so broken. It was genuinely like, I really did love beauty.

A (20:08)

Yeah.

B (20:09)

And I think I realized later when I went to Paris and I started working at Lonvan with Alberta, that was something that was really a love affair that I had. You know, I love the dress. I love fluidity, I love beauty, I love fabric. And I'm not really afraid of that. I actually just want to celebrate that. That's something very central to me that's quite authentic about me. And I think I. You realize that you. You had that a long time before you even become aware of it. And. And also that that's what you should. I. I believe, personally, if you have a thing like that, you should, you

A (20:54)

know, that should become your thing and who you are. But can I ask you this? So when, Louis, when you were working with Louise, when you were developing that. That. That thing that probably you could put into words, but maybe not. Is that what you're. Is that what you're doing now at form? Because I know you had these two really seminal experiences with Albert and with Stella, which was probably you. There were obviously technique learned along the way in business and all that, but what you're doing now is that back to maybe what you were doing at Central St. Martin's or is it. Is it different?

B (21:32)

I think that when I worked in Paris, you know, Albert was an amazing, amazing person. Oh, my teacher and I, you know, I feel so lucky in. In the fact, you know, in the sense that I had Louise and then I had Albert because they were both truly mentors to people. You know, they were generous, they were both brilliant. And, you know, at the time, everybody thought Louise was, you know, people were afraid to. You know, it was intimidating. You had to bring your best game, you know. But the truth is, she was actually really very supportive and all about nurturing us, you know, through this process. That's just not how she presented herself necessarily on the day of the critique. Yeah, but the truth was when you. When you graduated, you realized that she. She had. You, you know, she.

A (22:19)

She had developed. You mean, she had. She had.

B (22:22)

We were. Our success. Was her success.

A (22:24)

Yes.

B (22:24)

And I think, you know, she was really invested in. In us going out and actively working and being the best we could be. And I think when I arrived at London, I learned so much watching and being a part of that, you know, studio. And it was incredible to me to have that experience because it was very, very different from the London, from the British kind of grit of, you know, research and the School of Cool and this kind of amazing, you know, opportunity to be exposed to all of that electric, creative kind of community. Paris was very much, for me an education in technical. It was interesting to be in an atelier where they were hand making and draping and cutting on the site above the or below the design room. And you were basically working in tandem with the atelier all day.

A (23:27)

Wow.

B (23:28)

Imagine this access that you have to these people who are truly excellent at their craft. They are taking, you know, they're also individuals. So they all have. All of the modelists have a different strength. So you have a tailor, you have someone who's very precise and can make something very sharp and beautiful, but then you have someone who can. Who can drape with effortlessness. They all have a character and an individual strength. And to get to watch how those people would do that was an absolute. I mean, for me, that was an education.

A (24:05)

Yeah.

B (24:05)

And the respect I had for them. And also the interesting thing, which I think was quite important to say, is that I arrived as a young woman with almost not a word of French. And you cannot imagine going down to this French atelier. Women with this experience and this amazing. They knew who they were. And, you know, the only way that I could work with Them was to kind of win their respect. And I couldn't speak to them, and I couldn't convince them, you know, with any language. So I really had to kind of work with sketches and draping, and that was the only language I had to kind of win these people over. And it was very important to me to be able to work with them somehow. And so I would, you know, at the beginning, Albert really encouraged me to sketch, and I was already a sketcher, but then I became a fair sketcher. Wow. And I sketched, you know, day and night. And really, I honed the skill of that even more, I think, in that early process. And I would use the sketches. He would always, you know, ask us to go and work with the atelier on the things that he was. He had in mind. And I would go down with sketches, and I would go down with maybe half a draped dress or a swatch or a piece of, you know, an indication, some kind of like a fabric detail or that would help convey what it was that we were trying to communicate. And it was this process of, you know, sketching and trying things on the stand and mocking up. We used to call it mocking up something to kind of design and then to go back to sketching. That was really. That was a very technical kind of moment for me. And I think the craft of how to do that, how to, you know, really produce something at that level, that was very. I will never, you know, that that is. Was one of the most informative moments in my life. And, you know, that was one part of it, but the other part of it was watching his process and his way of. His ideology of putting the woman first.

A (26:24)

Yeah.

B (26:24)

It was really about how you could make a woman look good. It wasn't about, you know, what.

A (26:31)

And feel good. And feel good. Yes.

B (26:33)

And feel good. You know, how do you. How do we. You know, how do we promote her? It's about whether, you know, she feels and looks her best. It's not about creating the best dress. It's about the dress is secondary to the woman.

A (26:49)

Yes. Which is. That was so revolutionary, wasn't it? And I also think the other thing that he did that was completely revolutionary was he believed that. I mean, I heard him speak about this. I sat in on a talk with the team that he believed that every collection could. Should go with every collection, that you should be able to wear a jacket from last season to go with the dress from this season, which I'm sure the owner didn't love, you know, but that's such an incredibly seriously, like, mind blowingly revolutionary way of thinking about things because fashion is all about consuming and buying new things. But he really didn't think about it that way, I don't think.

B (27:30)

I think he. You know, the other thing that I found endlessly inspiring about him or the thing that still just gets me every time, was that his ability to bring emotion and poetry into a physical object.

A (27:46)

I mean, I cried at so many of those shows. Truly. Yeah, wept.

B (27:52)

I think there's something very human about this. Yeah. I think he could tap into emotion and it was something about the finishing and the lightness of touch and the undone characteristic of it.

A (28:04)

Yeah.

B (28:05)

And the kind of. And also that you could relate to it. So it wasn't perfection.

A (28:09)

You could feel the hand.

B (28:11)

Yeah, it was perfect.

A (28:12)

You could feel the hand of the people that had made it it.

B (28:13)

There was a humanity to it and there was a warmth to it as well. There was a kind of a. You could feel his love of women. Yes, People always say that. And I think, you know, also he was very kind and. And very generous. You know, as a young person who came to work there and had never even been to Paris.

A (28:34)

Yeah.

B (28:35)

And I arrived there. I'm going to live there. He was. He was truly as a character, even that was inspiring. So when you go on later and you work for LVMH or you work for the Gucci Group and you have to think about how you are as a leader. You know, how do you work with people? What is your. This is as important as what you make. You know, how do you treat people?

A (28:58)

And to have that. Have that have been your first experience with a leader is extraordinary. Really. Yeah.

B (29:05)

I think, you know, Louise used to always say, buy your team lunch. He would always do things. There were small acts of kindness where he just understood and got the fact that we were all. Some of us were kind of, you know, fresh out of college and we were. We weren't, you know, we didn't have necessarily.

A (29:25)

Yeah.

B (29:26)

Affluence or stability yet. And he was just very thoughtful about those things. And I think he really. You could see the way in his whole ideology and approach to design was an extension of his character. And I think it's that authenticity, you know, who you are and what you make is intrinsically connected, I think, for me, anyway.

A (29:54)

And so from then, you were there how many years, Frances?

B (29:58)

I was there for a few years. I mean, three, three and a half years. Eventually I, you know, I would have stayed forever there, but my husband, who's British, a British New Zealander. He was born in New Zealand, but he is. His father's British, and he was living, obviously, in England at the time we became engaged. And it was just impossible for me to imagine using the Eurostar for 10 more years of marriage. You know, at some point, I had to make a decision about it, and I think, you know, I knew that I could go to London and I could work in London because London is one of the major fashion capitals of the world, you know, and I also love London. And so I went to London and I worked with Stella, and that was amazing. It was an amazing experience.

A (30:46)

And opposite in the way that you were working with. Not opposite, but working with. With true tailors. Correct.

B (30:53)

Yeah. I mean, the amazing thing. But, you know, one of the really memorable things for me, I mean, there were so many things. It was very pro women as well, which was beautiful. It was a beautiful thing to work with a woman and with a team of a lot of women. I mean, that was so unique.

A (31:11)

With families, with children, with families.

B (31:14)

It was very positive. And, you know, I think we were. We were just all. There was such a kind of supportive sort of energy in there, and I think that really helped, actually, because I did go on to have my children in London, and my children are British. But, you know, we had this amazing. The thing. The thing that I found really incredible was that there was a tailor who used to work there who was so skilled, and we. And we had this contact and this opportunity to watch that process, and I think that was quite special. I think Savile Row, I think the. The British, you know, tailoring, you know, the Savile Row history is so amazing. It's so inspiring to me. It's kind of like a thing that, you know, I. You know, maybe I'm biased as well, but I think it's almost like one of the most. The best in the world.

A (32:10)

Yeah. You know, and did you know anything about it? I mean, of the construction of it? Did you have any idea how that whole process worked?

B (32:18)

I mean, I. We had been making. You know, we had been making tailoring in Paris, but the interesting thing was it was much more.

A (32:26)

There was no lining.

B (32:27)

It wasn't traditional. Yeah. It was kind of like you make a jacket and, you know, was. Everything he did was beautiful. And it was so nice that there was no structure. And, you know, it would be put in the washing machine or it would be. The fabric would be washed and it would be soft, and you put it on and it would mold to your body. But Savile Row was much more about traditional and about the codes of, you know, there are rules or, you know, they were, and now we break them.

A (32:53)

All right?

B (32:54)

But, you know, the understanding like that actually there is a way that you make a certain suit, you know, that a double breasted suit is not the same as a single breasted suit. And there are. There are sort of traditions around all of these things. That was really a revelation to be like, I did not understand and I didn't. I didn't feel like actually I didn't have a reverence for it either. And I think what I have now is a reverence for it. I have a love affair with those things, and I really look into that now. When I think about if I make a tuxedo suit, I really think about what those classic historical details are. And I have a real reverence for that and a respect for it. And that comes from being able to be exposed to that and also knowing what type of fabrics will work for those things. Fabric is very important to me. You know, there's a whole piece around that. I think it's like, it's the starting point for me of the collection. You know, it's. There's research, but the fabric is often under. I think people under appreciate the role that fabric plays and how important it is to have, you know, those mills and the connection with those mills and the understanding of the history of fabric and who is going to bring, you know, that top. The quality of it is very important to me. And I think, you know, what, we're certainly one thing that we're trying to do with form, and a key thing for me is to keep that and to bring that caliber or level of quality in the fabric and not to compromise that. I just want people to have a place that they can come to where they can buy even a simple thing and something that is so beautiful and the quality is so second to none. And we're trying to also think about supporting mills that are, you know, important to the. To the world, that, you know, if everyone stops supporting them, what will happen to that beauty or that uniqueness?

A (34:56)

Yeah.

B (34:57)

So you know and learn, but I think to understand how to use fabric, you also have to watch. You learn that also by watching people who are ahead of you, you know, what works and what doesn't work.

A (35:09)

So how long were you at Stella and when in that process did you consider that you would ever want to work for yourself?

B (35:18)

I was at Stella for a long time. I was there for. I mean, it must have been 12

A (35:23)

years and ended as design director, correct?

B (35:26)

Yes, Yes, I ended as design director and I had my.

A (35:28)

Which is a totally different job also. I mean. Yeah, right from what you'd been doing all along the way.

B (35:33)

Yeah, I mean, I think I arrived and I. And I worked very hard and, you know, and you just. You. You just as, you know, as it goes on, you. You change, you know, your position or you eventually evolve. But, I mean, it was. It was an amazing experience. And actually I have so many close friends and community from that period in my life. And I mean, I think it was. It was pre. It was around Covid that I really felt. And it was more of a feeling of. Of London. Is this the. There was a moment in London and it was also a post Brexit. Yeah, or Brexit was upon us. Covid was. Was about to happen and was happening. And it was a very difficult time in London and it felt very dark. You know, I've always. And I still have a huge passion for London. I think it's one of my favorite cities, if not my favorite, but it really felt like that. That kind of golden age of London that I had kind of, you know, studied. I'd studied there and worked there. It felt like that was ending somehow or that was. It was not like that anymore. And it was. There was a lot of hardship. A lot of my friends were either losing their jobs or, you know, Brexit was impacting, you know, the. The cost of living. It was quite bleak. And I think at some point my husband and I thought, this is. You know, we have young children. We could actually just go and have an experience. We don't have to sort of stay here and, you know, maybe we should just change things up and we should just have a New York experience.

A (37:10)

And so you just moved?

B (37:12)

Yeah, we did. And my husband. My husband works in advertising. And it was very easy for us because, you know, we both. English is our first language. Moving to America is actually after moving to Paris, I can tell you, so easy, you know, so. So easy. And, you know, it. It is. I think we were both very excited about the idea of coming to America and having another experience. If you come from an island, you know, like New Zealand, really, one of the things. One of the goals in your life is to see the world and to live in these places. And there was a part of me that kind of wanted to also collect the set. You know, I want to kind of London, Paris, New York, Milan. I wanted to have the learnings. You know, it's an education. This. This Ride. And I wanted to have the learnings from these different places. And I knew already how beneficial it had been to have the both the French School of Paris and the London School of Education. And so we came to New York and it was very interesting because I think, you know, there's an energy and a entrepreneurial spirit in New York which is second to none. If you are going to start something or you are going to innovate or you're going to create something. This is truly a place to consider doing that because there is a culture of can do, you know. You know, we would tell people, I would tell people I'm working. You know, form is a startup where, you know, we're creating this brand. And people were just so excited to hear that and they were so supportive of the idea and you could tell that there was an appetite for this new expression that we were bringing. And I think that is a cultural thing. I think if you had done that in other places, it would not have been. And so there was something about New York which I find tremendously exciting in that sense. And I think that energy, I think

A (39:24)

that's an American spirit, actually. I think that wanting people to be successful, wanting creative people to bring new things to us, I mean, I do think probably other places there's a lot more negativity around it, like, oh, are you sure you should do that? That probably won't work, you know, whereas I think Americans are like, yeah, sure, bring it, I want to see.

B (39:45)

Yeah, I mean, exactly. And I think that's actually sometimes the secret to success is the, the open mindedness and the kind of energy and the excitement behind, you know, doing something. And I think, I really think that that is quite infectious. Yeah, I think if you, you know, there is also something about New York's energy. So I think there's something a piece to say about the geographical location of places influencing, for example, a brand. You know, we are form, we, we are based in New York and we are founded in New York and we are, you know, this is where the origins and the genesis of this brand is. And I think that is intrinsic to its design ethos and its energy and its culture. And I think that's very important in the same way that you can't really take Chanel out of France. It's very intrinsic, it's very connected to the spirit and the design, the ideology of it. And so this idea of form to me of innovating and bringing something new, a new point of view and bringing all of that wealth of experience, but Having a fresh perspective on, you know, what a modern woman of today, a cultured, intelligent, well read woman, what does she need and want? And if you were to build a brand around her, instead of starting from the codes of a heritage brand that was set up a hundred years ago by someone else who's probably no longer alive, you know, if we thought about today, about starting something, you know, what would that look like? And I think there's something very interesting to me about finding that thing that is the relevancy to women today, you know, our tribe of women, and really thinking about them and starting with that. You know, that's very inspiring.

A (41:56)

What's been the most challenging part about it?

B (41:59)

I mean, so far, not a lot has been. We've been very lucky. You know, people have been very receptive and I'm very naturally inspired and energized and I find it very, very pleasurable and exciting, this journey. And I think, you know, I guess the most challenging thing is we're not, you know, a lot of the jobs I've had, I've gone in and the brand is a household name.

A (42:21)

Yeah.

B (42:22)

So with this, you have to establish that, you know, we need to tell people who we are and what we're doing. And that's very important because you can do something magnificent and if nobody sees it or hears about it, it doesn't mean anything. But I think, you know, in general, we have a very. I had also a good, A good kind of experience in how to, you know, set up a supply chain, how to think about distribution, how to think about pricing structure, how to make sure that it's a real thing, that we're actually making something that you can love and buy and your girlfriends can wear. And I think that has helped a lot because, you know, that's an education in itself and another skill entirely. But, you know, actually we've had a very positive experience. The brand was established in 2021. Our founder, Nina Kossler, and it's actually, I've been with the brand for two years now and it's really incredible, the traction and the positive kind of reception that we've had. And I think, you know, we probably couldn't have hoped for such a reaction.

A (43:42)

Well, I bought the first collection sight unseen. I really did.

B (43:46)

And it was so funny.

A (43:48)

I really did. And then I went into the showroom, I was like, oh, wow, this is so. Actually very beautiful. I had.

B (43:54)

I mean, I think, I think the idea is also, it's quite simple. Let's. The, the mantra is let's bring you something, you know, made out of an incredible fabric that's really considered, you know, and has a bit of emotion and brings that love and appreciates you as a woman, and you feel comfortable in it at a. At a. In a way that is not unachievable.

A (44:18)

Yeah.

B (44:18)

You know, democratic. We can. We can buy it. You know, let's produce it. Let's actually put it on people. Let's let people wear it. You know, we're selling clothing. We're not selling bags. We don't have shoes.

A (44:30)

Yeah.

B (44:31)

We don't have accessories. We're not selling belts. You know, it's all just about. About the clothing. And I think that's also unusual.

A (44:39)

Yes.

B (44:40)

You know, and I think that you. If that's what you're doing, you have to trade on the idea that people. It has to be about the wearability of it. We're always thinking about a woman's wardrobe. We're always thinking about, you know, the needs of modern women. But I think there's a kind of an element of wanting to bring some emotion back into it. I think what I'm really doing with form is trying to reconnect to the intimacy of that Parisian moment as well that I had early in my career. And I think it's about, you know, how nice it is to be able to work in a small scale on things that are very, very well made and keeping the integrity of the process. And it's much harder to do that if you're a very large business.

A (45:24)

Yeah. And so when you built your design team, you've built it small like that.

B (45:28)

Absolutely. And we've basically handpicked people who are the best people in the industry. Little kind of a team, and it's a very small team. And we all just work together in a very sort of democratic way, you know, and it's very amicable. And the. The culture and the feeling inside the business is wonderful. It's wonderful. And that's probably. We're probably an island in that regard, too. Yeah. And maybe that's from that. That ideology. You know, I can only speak for myself, but I think that came from how I felt, you know, at times in my life when I worked with people that I felt supported. I felt there was that the. The culture of humanity and the business was as important as the product.

A (46:16)

Yeah.

B (46:17)

You know, and your reputation as a business and how you work with people, how you treat people is very important.

A (46:23)

Yep. You know, what's the best advice that you've been given along your journey?

B (46:30)

I think the best advice that I've ever been given. You know, the thing or one thing that spoke to me was the idea that you are. You know, when you're creating something, you're not. You're not making an object or a product. You're making something that inspires an emotion within a person. So what you're really doing is you're kind of generating desire. A person, the dress is important, but the emotional reaction you have to it, to want it, to want to put it on, to be excited about this, this object. That's the thing. That's the thing that you're trying to. To create. And so it's actually, you know, it's not as tangible as just an object, a good object. That's not enough. You know, I think. I think that's. That was a very inspiring realization. And I don't know where I got that along the way, but it. You know, would you. Would you. Would you have it if someone offered it to you and gave it to you? Would you wear it? Would you want it? How would you feel? You know, I think that you have to really want to steal it. Do you know what I mean? Like, if we left you alone in the showroom in Paris, you know, what would you be stuffing in your bag? And I think that's important to have that, like, covered, to have that connection with it.

A (47:59)

Yeah. Tell me about New Zealand. How does it ground you?

B (48:05)

I think it's very helpful when you work in the fashion industry to come from a place that is so. That is so grounding. And I think New Zealand is a very. It is a very beautiful place, but it's also a very honest place. What you see is. What you get. It is. People are very. They're very genuine. And I think there's a kind of a creativity there which is very original because it's not really following, you know, anything. It's. It's so far off the. The path that I think there's an opportunity in that. In that remoteness for originality. And I think it's grounded me because I can. I know that, you know, I can go back there and that this is. This is important. You know, fashion is important. But what maybe is more important is, you know, real people and that human connection and maybe the connection with the land. You know, New Zealanders have a connection with the land which is quite, you know, can be quite profound. You know, I. I live in a city now. I live in New York. I miss the remoteness. I miss the, you know, being, you know, able to walk through the forest and, you know, not see a single person for two or three days. You know, that's a. It's a very. You know, it's very hard to explain that.

A (49:43)

Yeah.

B (49:43)

To a New Yorker. And, you know, when I go back to New Zealand, I am always surprised by how few people there are or how small it is or how special it is and how utterly, utterly beautiful it is. And it's almost like a kind of an untouched place that hasn't yet. You know, I always think of it as quite uncorrupted and quite unspoiled, you know, and I feel very, very privileged that I was born there. And, you know, I hope one day that I will return there. But I think it's important also to see, in contrast, other places. I really value, you know, the. The fact that I've been able to travel and work and learn in different centers, and I hope to continue doing that, because I think, you know, if you're not learning, you're kind of not evolving. And this is. You have to keep evolving. You have to keep learning in order to bring innovation.

A (50:47)

What advice would you give to a young New Zealander who is interested in design?

B (50:52)

I think I would. You know, I'm. I really believe that they should take, you know, that they. That they could do it. You know, I think I had to believe that it was possible to work in this industry, despite the fact that it felt, you know, I felt quite disconnected from the global fashion industry. And I think, just don't believe, you know, that there's anything that can stop you from doing it. And if it's really what you truly want, you will. You will find a way, you know, through hard work and determination, it's really possible to actually to. To go out and to find solutions for these things that feel insurmountable. And also, don't under. Don't underappreciate your uniqueness or your originality coming from a place where perhaps you haven't been looking at everybody else. Yeah, you know, I think it's quite. It's quite good in this. In this global moment where everybody is watching or looking at the same channels of imagery like Instagram or, you know, going to the same points of reference to have come from somewhere where you were not doing that so you were cultivating an original voice or an original process. I think that's very special. You know, I think that's a superpower of sorts.

A (52:12)

Frances, when you think about your. Your 3 entries and were they single pieces or were they collections for that award?

B (52:21)

I can't remember. I think we had to produce some, like two pieces or an outfit or something. And it was always, there was always some kind of brief that was given.

A (52:30)

Do you remember what they were and do you relate to them now?

B (52:34)

I actually don't remember what they were. I mean, it was so long ago.

A (52:38)

If we saw them, could we know that it was your hand?

B (52:41)

I mean, probably not because I think I was 20 years old or 21 years old, but I think that, you know, I think the importance of it was the you I was almost learning how much determination you had to have, you know, how much drive, like never, ever, ever get up, you know, what, that, what it would take to actually, to get to this thing and to kind of learn how to hone that energy and that passion into something and to, and to be focused. Because I think with focus you can, there's a lot you can achieve if you know what your goal is. You know, finding the goal is exactly a percentage.

A (53:28)

Well, that was my last question was I guess that young person, that 20 year old. If you had known how long it would take to get to where you are now and all of the lessons along the way from Albert, from Stella, from Louise, from that whole process, did you consider that it would have taken that long? That's, it's 20 years, right? I mean, I mean, I don't know

B (53:56)

if I think about it like that. I mean, I think, you know, every day, yeah, I wake up and I work in this industry. I think it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. And you know, I, I genuinely, I'm passionate about it and I, I, nothing about it is bad to me, like all of it, even the hard moments, you know, when something doesn't work or, you know, and there are many hard moments. There is no time where I think I wish I was doing something else.

A (54:24)

What's the hardest moment?

B (54:27)

I don't know. I mean, there are moments where, you know, there are moments where you do a show and something breaks, you know, and maybe shoes break and that's like a catastrophe. And how do you solve that with, you know, a few hours or a moment before, you know, and that's, that feels challenging. But you know, none of this is actually anything but, you know, truly a privilege. Yeah, you know, it's a privilege to work in this creative endeavor.

A (54:58)

Another thing that strikes me too is that from such an individual kind of solo sounding childhood to such a team driven career is interesting.

B (55:12)

Well, remember I, I came from a large family, so I, I was constantly Surrounded by people, were making things. And I think that was very similar to working in an atelier.

A (55:22)

Yeah.

B (55:23)

If I think about the kitchen table and all the. The family cutting lino cuts, you know, and then I think about creating a collection and an atelier with a group of people that are very, you know, working very simultaneously together, I think that's something. I feel very, very comfortable in that environment, technically.

A (55:43)

Yeah.

B (55:44)

And working in that way. And, you know, there's a. There's a part of me that, you know, really, I think is about the craft and about the people.

A (55:54)

Yeah.

B (55:54)

You know, and that's. That's the whole thing. And so, you know, even, you know, the moments that are challenging you, it's the people that also save you. You know, there are amazing people in this industry. So inspiring. And just to be able to even work with some of those people in collaboration for one season or in one moment, you know, and to watch them do what they do at the level they do it. You know, when you're working on a show in Paris and all the hair and makeup teams arrive and they're just the best of the. You know, it's an amazing experience, and I think it's a real privilege, actually, to see that and to be able to look inside that, create other people's creative processes.

A (56:37)

Yeah.

B (56:37)

I've always found that very inspiring to know how other people do it, you know.

A (56:43)

Yeah. I do have one more question, and I've never. I have had one other person from New Zealand on the podcast. Do you. We ask everybody on the podcast what they were to prom. Did you have proms in New Zealand?

B (57:00)

No, no, no, we did not have a prom.

A (57:05)

Did you have some sort of, like, marquee event, as they say in. In the uk? A marquee?

B (57:10)

Honestly, I don't know if we had the equivalent. I mean, there was some kind of. I mean, this question is. It's very. It's a very almost culturally irrelevant question.

A (57:24)

Right.

B (57:25)

You know, it's almost like asking someone in Greenland or to the beach, you know, every summer vacation. You know, it's like a. I think. Yeah, I think that's a. It's interesting. It's interesting and. And witty because it's so culturally far from my experience.

A (57:48)

Do you have a favorite. Do you have a favorite piece that you made as a young person that you can remember?

B (57:54)

Well, you know, I. I do remember making a lot of things. I think I just remember the fabrics. I remember a glossy black.

A (58:03)

You use of glossy black in this collection. Thank you.

B (58:07)

We have a lot of washed and beautiful fabrics. We work a lot with people to create fabric, and we have some very exceptional collaborations with certain mills that are quite, you know, special.

A (58:19)

Yeah.

B (58:20)

And I always remember this black. Glossy black velvet fabric that I had, which I made a very simple, very linear dress out of. And it looked like. It almost looked like water. It was sort of so soft, and it was almost like a cocker spaniel's ears, you know, when you kind of like.

A (58:40)

Yes.

B (58:41)

You know, you sort of like, touch, you know, that very soft part. And it was sort of like this. It was almost like it was alive. And it was a silk. Velvet, and it must have been French, and it must have come. There's only a couple of places in the world that make that thing. And I know now where it comes from. And I didn't know at the time what it was that I was loving so much about it, but it. It's this kind of. Its ability to feel almost alive. Yeah. And so that was a. That was a nice memory.

A (59:12)

One last question. You. You. I think you were still working with Albert when you got married. Did he make your dress?

B (59:18)

No, I was in London when I got married, and I. I was engaged when I left London, but I had a very, very quiet and intimate moment with my husband where we got married and no one came. We had no. We invited no one. And I remember telling Louise, me, too.

A (59:36)

I had the same experience.

B (59:37)

You do that? Yes, I. I do, too. It was fantastic. Because what we did is we took all the money that we would have spent on this wedding, and we took all our savings and we bought our first flat. And that was truly a better investment, in my opinion. We had a place to live, a little roof over our head.

A (59:56)

But what did you wear?

B (59:57)

I wore a dress. Just. It was honestly so unremarkable that. And. But the one thing I do remember is that it had a zip up the back, and I just rushed out of the house. And when I was standing in this moment where you. You talk about. You do, the final moment, I realized that my zip was still open.

A (60:18)

Well, then you had a partner who could fix it for you.

B (60:21)

Yes, but I remember going back to. I was. I went in to see Louise and I told her that I had. That I'd gotten married. I think I just mentioned it in passing. And she was so angry. She was so angry with me. And she said, frances, but what about the gifts?

A (60:36)

You could.

B (60:37)

You could have, like, received so many wedding gifts. And I remember thinking, oh, my God, I didn't even think about that.

A (60:44)

You know, So I love it. Thank you for doing this, Francis. I appreciate it so much.

B (60:49)

It's been such a pleasure.

A (60:51)

Thank you.

B (60:52)

Thank you for having me. So nice.

A (60:54)

Thanks for being here. Thank you.