The Dark Knight

Summary

WHAT WENT WRONG — "The Dark Knight" (Sad Boom Media) Episode Date: July 20, 2026
Hosts: Lizzie Bassett & Chris Winterbauer
Transcript-based Structured Summary

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Overview

This episode of "What Went Wrong" takes a deep dive behind the scenes of Christopher Nolan’s 2008 blockbuster The Dark Knight. Hosts Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer unpack the film’s challenging and sometimes tragic production, its reinvention of the superhero genre, the now-legendary performances (notably Heath Ledger’s Joker), and the chaos and brilliance involved in pulling off one of Hollywood’s biggest ever hits. The episode covers the context of Batman in pop culture, Nolan’s vision, production challenges, casting controversies, set-piece stunts, the impact of Ledger’s death, and the film’s lasting legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Personal Memories & The Film’s Impact

• Both hosts relive their first theatrical experiences of The Dark Knight in their college years, describing the movie as a “brain-melting” experience, especially the truck flip sequence ([03:30–06:54]).
• Lizzie: “I remember my jaw hanging open when that 18 wheeler semi truck flips ass over teakettle in the middle of this movie. I had never seen anything like it.” (06:55)
• Chris reflects on how, after his initial awe, film school made him unduly critical, but on rewatch, the movie "rocks" and represents an extraordinary cinematic achievement ([04:24–06:33]).

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2. Batman’s Cultural Evolution

• The hosts journey through Batman’s origins: his debut in 1939 as a noir-ish, sometimes ruthless character; the campiness of the '60s TV show; the dark tonal turns in comics and the 1989 Tim Burton film; and the eventual low point of Batman & Robin ([10:31–14:26]).
• Lizzie: “In 1939…Bruce Wayne, aka Batman, made his debut. And by the way, Chris, he seemed totally fine with murdering people.” (10:33)
• The segment sets the stage for how radical Nolan’s approach would become ([14:44–15:46]).

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3. Christopher Nolan’s Arrival and Approach

• Nolan initially offered Troy, then pivoted to Batman: After working on Insomnia (2002), Nolan pitched his gritty, realistic Batman, impressing Warner Bros. enough to overcome studio skepticism ([15:00–16:06]).
• Nolan’s take: “He’s the most credible and realistic of the superheroes. He has the most complex human psychology…His superhero qualities come from within.” (16:06)
• The mantra: “What if Batman were real?” informs all visual and narrative decisions.

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4. Casting — Controversy and Transformation

Christian Bale as Batman:

• Nolan knew only Bale could balance Bruce Wayne’s charisma and Batman’s intensity, noting his “American Psycho”-like range ([18:30–19:05]).
• Bale originated the Batman voice and bulked up following The Machinist, gaining “100 pounds of muscle”—though Chris jokes about which Bale physique he resembles ([23:34–24:04]).

Heath Ledger as Joker:

• Ledger, originally considered for Batman, personally called Nolan after seeing Batman Begins to express interest in the Joker ([30:28–30:53]).
• At announcement, fan outrage was intense. The internet called it "the worst casting decision ever made" ([34:13–35:15]), but Nolan stuck to his guns.
• Jonathan Nolan: “People called it the worst casting decision ever made. But Chris Nolan stuck to his guns, giving fans…not what they were asking for, but what they want now.” (34:13)
• Other contenders: Sam Rockwell, Adrien Brody, Paul Bettany ([32:49–33:29]).

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5. Heath Ledger’s Joker: Creation & Legacy

• Ledger locked himself in a London hotel for a month, keeping a diary and developing the character with anarchic, “no empathy” energy ([35:15–35:47]).
• Inspirations: Francis Bacon paintings for makeup; Johnny Rotten, Iggy Pop, Sid Vicious for attire ([36:04–37:07]).
• Makeup/prosthetics: Groundbreaking one-piece scar prosthetic allowed flexibility; Ledger’s lip-licking was a trait born from necessity ([38:23–38:27]).
• Ledger’s set dynamic was playful, mischievous, “having the most fun he’s had in a role” — debunking the myth of his performance’s toxicity (71:14–72:36).

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6. Production Challenges, Practicality & Stunts

Shooting in Chicago:

• After considering other cities, Nolan chose Chicago for its flexibility (tax incentives, Lower Wacker Drive), aiming to make Gotham feel truly American ([44:18–47:04]).
• The city was shut down, filled with hundreds of crew, Batmobiles, and stunts — with Mayor Daley’s blessing after a nerve-wracking meeting ([47:08–47:09]).

Set Pieces & Practical Effects:

• The heist sequence, truck flip, and much of the action were filmed in large-format IMAX or practically, not CGI, wherever possible ([50:02–56:29]).
• Chris: “The majority of the stunts…are practical. …Nolan's stance was essentially no CGI unless something is physically impossible.” (55:14)
• Stunt breakdowns: Real 18-wheeler flip on LaSalle Street, real (candy factory) explosion, real Batpod/Batmobile; miniatures used for select sequences ([54:42–56:29]).
• The iconic Hong Kong wingsuit shot was the only major CGI Batman stunt — after Hong Kong denied permission for the real thing ([57:53–59:38]).

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7. Tragedy on Set

• In September 2007, special effects technician Conway Wycliffe died during a test run in England after a car crash, the only major on-set disaster among otherwise meticulously orchestrated stunts ([62:29–63:45]).
• The segment serves as a somber reminder of the dangers inherent in large-scale practical filmmaking.

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8. Heath Ledger’s Death — Impact & Rumors

• Ledger died in early 2008 from accidental prescription drug interactions. Rumors that the Joker role “consumed” him are refuted by his co-stars and family ([66:03–73:11]).
• Michael J. White: “That drives me up a wall. …You just saw a dude having fun.” (71:14–71:31)
• Ledger’s work required little ADR due to Nolan’s focus on in-camera performance ([73:11–74:09]).

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9. Reception, Awards, and Legacy

• Release: July 2008; crossed $1 billion worldwide; landmark box office ([74:09])
• Oscar Wins: Best Supporting Actor (Heath Ledger), Sound Editing; snubbed for Best Picture (attributed to Harvey Weinstein’s campaign for The Reader, leading to Academy rules changes and category expansion) ([75:05–76:26]).
• Lasting Influence: The film redefined superhero cinema, inspiring a more “grounded” approach and shifting both audience and industry expectations for the genre ([10:59–11:09]; [76:31]).

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Memorable Quotes

• “Heath was behaving in a very similar fashion. He was kind of egging me on…He was slamming himself around. …His commitment was total.” — Christian Bale on filming the interrogation scene with Ledger ([51:36])
• “People called it the worst casting decision ever made. But Chris Nolan stuck to his guns, giving fans…not what they were asking for, but what they want now.” — Jonathan Nolan ([34:13])
• “It’s one of the greatest movies ever made, and it just happens to be a Batman film.” — Lizzie Bassett ([78:41])
• “This movie is remarkable in what they achieved. And it just looks so good, especially on the backdrop of Chicago.” — Lizzie ([78:41])
• “It transcends the comic book genre…It manages to live both in a very real world while still being heightened and fun and open over the top.” — Lizzie ([78:41])
• “This movie knows that it doesn’t need global stakes and I really appreciate that. …Ultimately, this movie’s very intimate and the stakes are very intimate.” — Chris ([81:14])

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Notable Moments & Timestamps

• [03:30] — Chris’s first impression (“19-year-old brain melted”)
• [06:55] — Lizzie’s awe at the truck flip
• [10:33] — Batman’s violent Golden Age origins
• [19:05] — Bale’s “American Psycho” influence, Batman voice
• [34:13] — Internet meltdown over Ledger's casting
• [35:15–37:07] — Developing the Joker look, influences
• [38:23] — Joker’s prosthetic/lip-licking trivia
• [44:18–47:04] — Finding Gotham in Chicago & logistical nightmare
• [54:42–55:14] — Detailed breakdown of truck-flip stunt
• [62:29–63:45] — Set tragedy: death of Conway Wycliffe
• [66:03–73:11] — Heath Ledger’s death & debunking the “Joker curse” myth
• [74:09–77:17] — Awards, Oscar snub, and rules change
• [77:43–80:00] — "What Went Right" segment: SFX team & Ledger’s legacy
• [81:09–81:48] — Chris: “One of the best movies about domestic terrorism”
• [82:28] — Outro/next episode preview (Spaghetti Westerns)

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Final Thoughts / What Went Right

• Chris credits the special effects and stunt teams for “doing all of the big things right,” pushing practical effects to their limit, and delivering edge-of-your-seat spectacle safely and seamlessly ([77:46–78:41]).
• Lizzie foregrounds Ledger as the film’s uniquely transcendent anchor, calling the performance “transcendent” and a tragedy for cinema that he’s gone ([78:41]).
• Both agree the film’s smart blending of realism, artistry, and genre play has never been topped and underpins its enduring status as a modern classic.

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“I think it's one of the greatest movies ever made, and it just happens to be a Batman film.”
— Lizzie Bassett ([78:41])

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Next week: A primer on spaghetti westerns and a dive into The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

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(End of episode summary)

Transcript

[Podcast Advertiser]

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[Lizzie Bassett]

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[Chris Winterbauer]

And action. Welcome back to another episode of your favorite podcast, Full Stop, that just so happens to be about movies and how it's nearly impossible to make them, let alone a good one, let alone a great man who we need to protect at the expense of the public's trust and an adherence to moral order or any sense of justice.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

As always.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh my God, that's so hard to do. Christian, an incredible actor as always. I am one of your hosts, Chris Winterbauer, joined by my co host, the intrepid Lizzie Bassett, here to walk us through the all gas no Break superhero adaptation of 2008. I'm so excited. Lizzy, what do you have for us?

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Hi.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's one of my favorite lines.

[Lizzie Bassett]

My favorite lines in the entire movie.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Hi.

[Lizzie Bassett]

We have the Dark Knight and I could not be more excited to talk about this movie with you. We have a lot, a lot, a lot to cover in today's episode. Just a heads up, the way that this is going to work, I am going to touch on Batman Begins because it's necessary to understand The Dark Knight. You might be wondering, why didn't we give Batman Begins its own episode? There's not really enough to do that.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, maybe we'll do it later. It's just like.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

It's pretty good.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's great. It's totally fine. It's not the Dark Knight. And also there is so much that did go wrong. And of course, right behind the scenes on the Dark Knight that this really merits its own full episode. So that's how this is gonna work. Little bit on Batman Begins, into the Dark Knight. And of course, if you didn't already, please go back just for fun and listen to Friday's bonus episode, about 10 things I hate about yout for a little bit more on Heath Ledger. Cause he was just a delight. So Chris, what was your experience with the Dark Knight prior to this rewatch and how did you feel upon rewatching it for the podcast?

[Chris Winterbauer]

So this movie came out in between the summer after our freshman year of college. Lizzie and I are. We were in the same grade. That's why we're friends with all the same touch points. But no, it came out. I was home and I'm so glad that I was home. You know, God bless all of them. The nerds I went to college with were not into movies in the way that I was. Especially not big popcorn. Undergrad, Undergrad. Undergrad. Yes, I did eventually go to film school, so I was home. I believe I saw this with David. I know. Kevin Graber, Shout Out. Our friend was there. We went opening night, Factoria Cinemas, which was the lower end, but better secretly theater near my house. And I was so excited. I thought Batman Begins was good. I liked it. I liked the changes that they made. Although I kind of still preferred the Tim Burton 89 one with Keaton probably.

[Lizzie Bassett]

They're very different, but yeah, they're very different.

[Chris Winterbauer]

But I loved the Keaton tone and the Burton aesthetic, but it really seemed based on the trailers, like this movie was gonna take things to the next level. And boy did it. And I went in and my 19 year old brain was melted in set piece after set piece. It's that Vince McMahon GIF or meme where, you know, he just gets more and more excited across the meme until there's lasers coming out of his eyes. That was basically my reaction watching this movie in theaters. I absolutely loved it. I just thought, oh God, it's just, they did it, they did it, they did it. Blah, blah, blah. Fast forward. I watched this when I'm in film school and I'm an I'm an idiot. And I am thinking somebody would have reacted to that bus pulling out of that bank at the beginning of this film. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. I became such a wet blanket about this movie in one watch, you know, And I. And I kind of thought maybe. Maybe it wasn't. You know, I had this lingering thought of maybe it wasn't all that in a bag of chips. And then I put it on last night and I sat down and I just had a big old smile on my face the whole time. This movie rocks. It makes some interesting choices we can talk about from a broader geopolitical sense or a philosophical sense, but just broadly speaking, what an accomplishment. Amazing set pieces, fantastic stunts, practical effects, great performances across the board. The cinematography is masterful.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I love the use of real aerial photography with helicopters. And you can see the jitter in the camera as it's going.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. Something drones. Has stolen from us.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yes, yes, absolutely. This. You know, unless it's David Fincher, I don't want my movies to be too smooth, is what I realized. And this movie is not too smooth, and I love it. And also, just Heath Ledger giving this movie the humor that Batman Begins was missing.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Totally.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And this movie is so funny. Hi. That is one of the best ones. Or also, did you really think we'd let you take our money? Blah, blah, blah. Yes. So he just had so many good, great, deadpan reactions. It's one of the best villain portrayals that we're gonna get. And Christian Bale remains great in this series. And I liked Mikey Gyllenhaal' in this one, although she doesn't get a ton to do, but I think she does it very well.

[Lizzie Bassett]

No, but she does it well. Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

So, anyway, all to say, dumb film school, Chris. Really glad I didn't have a podcast then, because I'm all, I'm back in for it now. This movie rocks.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I had a similar experience. I saw this the summer between freshman and sophomore year of college because, again, Chris and I were gestated in the same womb. Just kidding. But we were born the same year.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. You just lingered seven months longer in the.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Okay.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's right. I'm a baby. I saw this. You know, I think I saw this in Boston, which doesn't make any sense because I didn't stay in Boston the summer between. Anyway, I must have seen this before starting sophomore year of college, because I believe I saw this at the Fenway Theater. Shout Out. Boston. Boston. Notably, one of the cities they did not look at for recreating Gotham, which makes sense because the roads are insane. I remember sitting in the theater and I remember my jaw hanging open when that 18 wheeler semi truck flips ass over teakettle in the middle of this movie. I had never seen anything like it. It's one of my favorite film theater going experiences in my entire life. I have seen this movie many times since then and unlike you, it never lost its magic for me. In fact, the older I get, the more impressed I am by just the whole thing. I mean, yes, obviously Heath Ledger, who we will talk about a lot in this episode, does something truly, truly remarkable with both this role and this movie. And I just don't think his performance can be overstated how good it is, because you're right, he's so funny, which of course the Joker should be. He's very funny. He's very fun. He's also legitimately so scary. And there's a couple of moments in this movie where it feels like, you know, as they say, his mask slips. It's when he's doing one of the videos that he releases and he's saying, look at me. And it's the last look at me. Yeah, it just sends full body chills through my whole body. And you just believe him completely. It is incredible and huge shout out to Christian Bale, who absolutely holds his own opposite what Heath Ledger is doing. And the thing is, Bruce Wayne is kind of humorless and yet he also manages, I think, to bring a little bit more fun and life to Bruce Wayne, which is hard to do in both Batman Begins and this movie, but particularly in this movie. And I love all the shots in this movie that are very reminiscent of American Psycho. You know, that that's.

[Chris Winterbauer]

There's a lot of American Psycho fun in this movie, for sure.

[Lizzie Bassett]

There is a lot.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Also. Just some of the best you'll talk about this, I'm sure, but some of the best scale model work in a couple moments as well.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, is it? We'll talk about that. There's a lot to talk about here. There is obviously a famous tragedy associated with this movie, which is Heath Ledger's death. But there is another one that is less talked about that we will get into. This is the film that I think for better and in some cases for worse has come to define the modern superhero genre, particularly when it comes to dc. Of course, this is part of the DC universe. And yet, in my opinion, I don't think anything has ever come close to topping this. It is so gigantic in scale. While also being extraordinarily characteristic driven. Let's get into it because we have a lot to talk about. So here are the details, as always. The Dark Knight was released in 2008. It was directed by Christopher Nolan with a screenplay written by Jonathan Nolan and Christopher Nolan, story by Christopher Nolan and David S. Goyer. It stars Christian Bale, Heath Ledger, Aaron Eckhart, Michael Caine, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Gary Oldman, Morgan Freeman, Cillian Murphy, and so, so, so, so many more. And the IMDb logline is. When a menace known as the Joker wreaks havoc and chaos on the people of Gotham, Batman, James Gordon and Harvey Dent must work together to, to the madness. Our main sources for today are a really fun article from Chicago magazine called Night Moves. Spelled the way you think it is.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Working on Night Moves.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. Empire magazine's making of Heath Ledger's the Joker and a very fun hour long featurette behind the scenes from Warner Brothers that you should watch. It's really good. Let's start with the caped crusader himself because I don't think we've really talked about Batman that much on the podcast yet. Bortman.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Bortman, as he was originally called.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. So in 1939, after the success of Superman, which we have covered here, DC Comics was looking for its next big star. So editor Vin Sullivan turned to cartoonist Bob Kane and writer Bill Finger to take a stab at creating a new hero. And in a six page story called the Case of the Chemical Syndicate in Detectives Comics number 27, Bruce Wayne, aka Batman, made his debut. And by the way, Chris, he seemed totally fine with murdering people. He pushes a criminal into an acid tank in that first installment and he's much more smart. He's noir tinged. The whole idea that Batman doesn't kill people, only dogs, according to these movies, comes much later. He kills so many dogs across this movie.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Those are bad dogs, though.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Okay, but no, no bad dogs.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. And wasn't this very much in the vein of the Spirit and the Spider early on? There were some earlier noir comic characters.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, well, it makes sense. It's coming out at the tail end of the 1930s, which is peak noir season. And then of course, it does shift as it moves into later iterations, but the comic was enough of a hit right away to generate more stories. And then of course, six months later, his origin story appeared and the public learned about the tragic tale of Bruce Wayne's parents.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Ah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And we had to sit through that about a billion times.

[Lizzie Bassett]

A hundred billion bajillion times. Although I do like the Bat opera that they go see in Batman Begins.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Sure.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Side note, you may notice that the creation of Batman is credited toward Bob Kane in this film. That is because he took sole credit for creating the character. And it wasn't until 2015 that DC finally recognized Bill Finger as a co creator, even though Finger had Sadly died in 1974, which really sucks. Batman's readership was strong early on, which led to two different serialized films in the 40s. The first starring Lewis Wilson and then Robert Lowry as Bruce Wayne. And in the 50s, Batman comics started heading in a bit more of a camp direction than his pal Superman. And of course, in 1966, he was immortalized in the Batman TV series. Starring who?

[Chris Winterbauer]

Adam West.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Adam West. Bam, pow.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Bam pow. Batman, Robin. We're just best friends.

[Lizzie Bassett]

But while Batman's on screen Persona was getting goofier and goofier, the comics were getting darker. Writer Dennis o' Neill and artist Neal Adams made an enormous effort in the 70s to bring him back to his roots and away from the way that he had been portrayed on TV. And by the 80s, the Gotham and Batman comics was looking pretty rough. It was chock full of supervillains, rampant crime, just as dark as you can get.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, the world's gone to hell.

[Lizzie Bassett]

The world's gone to shit in the Batman.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Giuliani needs to clean up New York. We gotta get it going. Everything's going terrible. Yeah, I mean, and this was, you know, we talked about it.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I mean, New York was terrifying in

[Chris Winterbauer]

the 70s and 80s. Yeah, it was a taxi driver. We talked about it when we were discussing V for Vendetta. And this was the era. Watchmen and whatnot. But it was the gritty era, the gritty times.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It was, well. Meanwhile, Warner Brothers was hard at work developing a Batman feature film. And this would of course lead to Tim Burton's Batman in 1989, which youh love. Starring Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne, Jack Nicholson as the Joker. The movie was an enormous success, kind of against all odds, and it kicked off the Batman franchise of the 90s. But. But with each on screen iteration from 1989 forward, the studio saw diminishing returns until finally the series truly bottomed out with Joel Schumacher's 1997 batshit Batman and Robin, starring George Clooney as Batman. Poor George Clooney. It's not that bad.

[Chris Winterbauer]

If you guys are interested, just YouTube, Google search George Clooney. Graham Norton show Joel Schumacher for his story on how he was directed by Joel Schumacher.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, it's not his Fault jarge.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Remember, your parents are dad over a loudspeaker as he's strapp to a gurney or something. It's so funny.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, well, I'm glad he recovered. The movie, though, was a critical and commercial flop. And it seemed to close the door on the proverbial Batcave.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I saw all those movies. 95 on all of the. I think the Kilmer one on. I saw all of them in theaters.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, wow. I did not. Yeah, I didn't see them until much later.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Fun fact. I believe they used the Val Kilmer Batsuit for the screen tests for Batman Begins. Cool. Which you can actually see online. They're very cool. But Warner Brothers didn't give up. They simply went looking for someone new to reinvent the franchise. And in 2002, they had a somewhat surprise hit with a remake of a Norwegian film called Insomnia. And who was this directed by?

[Chris Winterbauer]

Christopher Noland.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Christopher Nolan, who has a different accent than his brother.

[Chris Winterbauer]

That's true.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It does make sense when you understand it.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It does actually make sense. Yes.

[Lizzie Bassett]

He grew up more in London. Jonathan grew up more in America.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yes. Jonathan grew up more in Evanston, I believe.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Near Chicago. That's right.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And Steven Soderbergh also really shepherded, I believe, Christopher into that directing role. He was a huge fan of Memento and was a champion of that movie and I think was really involved in that process.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Insomnia. Great. It's very fun.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I like Insomnia quite a bit. I think it's probably. It's one of the more overlooked movies in his filmography.

[Lizzie Bassett]

He's actually said that.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's a great one. And of course, listen to our episode on Memento for more background on Christopher Nolan. Now, thanks to the critical and actually commercial success of Insomnia, Nolan was offered a movie that Warner Brothers had been developing for a while. It was a sandbox he was all too eager to play in Chris. He knew exactly how he wanted to tackle it, how he wanted it to look and feel. Images filled his mind. Images of a Trojan horse.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh, yeah, the Ertice.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, sort of the film that Warner Brothers offered Christopher Nolan.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Was it the Iliad? Was it Troy?

[Lizzie Bassett]

Troy.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh, okay.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh.

[Narrator or Additional Advertiser]

Oh.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So the Odyssey starts here, Chris. The seeds.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

The seeds of the Odyssey.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yes.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

John Leguizamo.

[Lizzie Bassett]

What is he doing in the trailer?

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Is he dead? Is he alive? I don't know.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I can't wait. But while Nolan had actually done quite a bit of work on Troy, trouble was brewing in Gotham because German director Wolfgang Petersen had originally been developing Troy for Warner Brothers, said that's my boat. But had pivoted to Batman versus Superman. Except when Warner Brothers took a look at his BVS pitch, they said, no, thank you. And Wolfgang was like, fine, then give me back Troy. And so that's exactly what they did. They yanked Troy out of Christopher Nolan's hands and as a consolation prize, they offered him the opportunity to pitch his version of Batman. What they didn't know is that Christopher Nolan had always loved Batman. So he came in and over the course of about 10 minutes, pitched Warner Brothers on his caped crusader. He wanted a real crime fighter in a believable world. Nolan said of Batman, quote, he's the most credible and realistic of the superheroes. He has the most complex human psychology. His superhero qualities come from within. He's not a magical character. So even though it was short, his pitch was so fully formed that Warner Bros. Greenlit the film immediately. And In January of 2003, Nolan was officially on board to helm Batman Begins. To be fair though, Warner Bros. Was greenlighting a lot of Batman related pitches at this point. They had been trying to revitalize the franchise through at least four competing reinventions and spinoffs. Three of those would never get made. One of them we've covered. What is it?

[Chris Winterbauer]

Meow meow. Catwoman.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's right. The greatest basketball sequence of all time. Catwoman.

[Chris Winterbauer]

If you can call it basketball. I call it foreplay in front of children. But what? Yeah. And also there was another Batman vs Superman with McG attached as the director.

[Lizzie Bassett]

There have been a million versions of that.

[Chris Winterbauer]

After it went from Peterson, then it went to mcg and then eventually goes to Zack Snyder and it becomes man of Steel. So yeah, they were just saying, throw this spaghetti. Whoops. Spaghetti. Throw it at the wall.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Throw those bats at the cave. That's right. So David S. Goyer co wrote Batman Begins with Nolan and according to production designer Nathan Crowley, their North Star for the film really was just what if Batman were real? I think they do a great job of that in this. I rewatched Batman Begins before this episode as well. And. And while it's not what the Dark Knight is, it definitely is a reinvention of the superhero movie for sure. Now while many other stars at the time, including Ian Bailey, Cillian Murphy, Henry Cavill, Josh Hartnett, Jake Gyllenhaal and others, were considered for and screen tested for the role of Batman, according to Nolan, Christian Bale was the only one who could convincingly play both Bruce Wayne and Batman.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I've seen Killian's Bruce Wayne footage online and it's good. I mean, he's a great Bruce Wayne, you know?

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes, Ian Bailey's good too. You can watch a lot of these. Also, they screen tested opposite Amy Adams, who did it as a favor to Christopher Nolan.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh, it's pretty cool. Interesting.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. Bale was the first one Nolan met with for the part, and he could just never really get him out of his head. He's so good.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And he'd done American Psycho, which obviously Bruce Wayne is, in a way, Bruce Wayne, especially. Once he becomes Batman, Bruce Wayne becomes an American Psychoesque performance. He's performing as Patrick Bateman, basically, when he comes into these scenes.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I think that was a big reason why they cast him, was because that part was such a good indicator of what he. He could do with the asshole version of Bruce Wayne. Also, the fact that he came to the screen test with the Batman voice, that was his idea. Which of course makes sense. Like you would have to disguise your voice in some way, even if it's a little bit silly.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It bothers some people. It doesn't bother me. No.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You know what bothers me is he has one of the most distinctive mouths in the world. You're really telling me that his friends don't know that's Christian Bale's upper lip? Nice try.

[Chris Winterbauer]

When they said, I thought it could be Harvey Dent, I said, no, sir, not at all. Mr. Constant, five o' clock shadow, giant square jaw. That is how Christian Bale's lover mouth. No way.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Not at all. Ever since having my daughter, I have become obsessed with a good deal. Kids are pretty expensive, in case you hadn't heard. So now, full price. And I are not friends, and I treat bargain hunting like a sport. There's nothing like the thrill of finding exactly what you want at half the price of other retailers. Which is why I've been shopping on WhatNot. WhatNot is the number one live shopping app in the US where shopping happens in real time with real people, real conversations, and incredible deals. Seriously, I cannot emphasize enough how great the deals are. You almost never pay full price on name brand perfume, clothes, makeup, handbags, jewelry, and so much more. Plus, it really is fun. You get to interact directly with sellers and other buyers. You can even ask sellers questions so you know exactly what you're getting. Which is what I did when I bought the most beautiful vintage Gucci crossbody bag from the Dawn's Luxury for quite literally half the price of other retailers. It arrived quickly, in perfect condition and with a certificate of authenticity. Download Whatnot today and get $20 off and free shipping on your first purchase. Search whatnot W h a t N o t in the app stor store. Sign up and start finding the best deals on the products you love with $20 off and free shipping on your first purchase.

[Chris Winterbauer]

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[Lizzie Bassett]

Summer is approaching and I live in Southern California which means it's about to get very very hot. So right now I'm looking for lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good when I put them on. And listeners. There is a one stop SH that checks every box. Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk but without the luxury markup. And you seriously cannot beat these prices. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. I always tell my friends and family if you are looking for something, check Quince first. And not just for clothes. There's also jewelry, home goods and bedding. My favorite pair of little gold hoops are from Quince and we also got these really gorgeous lightweight duvet covers that we're using for the summer. They're not just beautiful, they're holding up really well to the daily wear and tear of living in a house with a dog, cat and toddler. So elevate Your summer wardrobe, go to quince.com wentwrong for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com wentwrong for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wentw. But it is important to remember that this was kind of a risk in 2012. Christian Bale told GQ, before we were involved, the Batman franchise had gone to pot. Everyone knows that. And to be honest, when we took it on, it was a big gamble. An awful lot of people thought we were destined for failure. He also put on 100 pounds of muscle for this part, which I know sounds insane, but you have to remember he was coming off of the machinist where he was basically skin and bones. And also, have you seen Batman Begins?

[Chris Winterbauer]

He is huge tick, but I would question that. It's 100 pounds of muscle.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Sure, he may have put on a hundred pounds.

[Chris Winterbauer]

He put on 100 pounds and a lot of it was muscle. Yes, Obviously.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It also looks. It looks real.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh, no. He looks like he just went like. It doesn't look like peds to me.

[Lizzie Bassett]

No, it doesn't. I mean, we don't know, but.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And Bale, across his career has changed his body so many times.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes. Yeah. I hope his insides are okay.

[Chris Winterbauer]

So that's why I always say I'm built like Christian Bale, but then I just never say which movie.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, you never know. Could be the machinist, could be Batman

[Chris Winterbauer]

Begins, could be vice. We don't know this is true.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Now, before Begins ever came out, David S. Goyer wrote two treatments for possible sequels, One featuring the Joker and one featuring Harvey Dent. But Nolan has always said he had no intention of making a sequel, let alone turning this into a trilogy. Of course, at the end of Batman Begins, you do see Gordon hand the joker card. But that could easily have been the studio saying, you know, you have to do this, something, whatever. It does sound like Nolan was very uncertain about whether he wanted to keep pursuing. But In June of 2005, Batman Begins was released and absolutely raked in the dollary dues, 375 million worldwide. It was also a critical success, which is something the franchise hadn't seen in decades.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And Catwoman bombed.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It bombed big time.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And so this was a high point relative to that movie for sure.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes. And David S. Goyer said it really wasn't until maybe three months after Batman Begins came out that Chris sat down with me for lunch and said, okay, let's talk about A scene Nolan himself was surprised to find that he wanted to return. He said, I didn't have any intention of making a sequel to Batman Begins. I just got caught up in the process of imagining how you would see a character like the Joker through the prism of what we did in the first film. Warner Brothers, on the other hand, was like, how fast can we get this into theaters, please? Fans were also champing at the bit to find out what was coming next. So the studio used the fake working title Rory's first Kiss to cover the work being done on the sequel. And they worked fast. It seems like right away, Christopher and his brother Jonathan Nolan, who co wrote the screenplay, knew they wanted the primary villain to be the Joker, which makes sense. It's teed up at the end of the first movie. And I do wonder if they then combined Goyer's treatments to also include Harvey Dent. That would make sense. Goyer has a story by credit on this.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I was surprised. I forgot how much this is about Harvey Dent.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes. And then they off him at the end, which is, I think, totally a bold move because Harry Neckhart is so good in this too. With the success of Batman Begins, Nolan also had the freedom to push the sequel farther in the direction of his original pitch. So writing the screenplay, the Nolans are drawing on the darker Batman comics. Alan Moore's the Killing Joke, Jeph Loeb's the Long Halloween, and one movie in particular that we have covered on this podcast. Chris, what classic crime drama that featured a former bat do you think directly influenced the Dark Knight Heat? Yes. Michael Mann's Heat. You can see it throughout, in every shot.

[Chris Winterbauer]

So much of this movie. Especially when they're in downtown Chicago in particular.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Exactly. In particular, of course, it's the choice to film the Dark Knight in a real city. And this was a big prerequisite for Christopher Nolan. He said Heat was very much an influence because man is a fanatic for architecture. He understands the grandeur of a city and how it can become kind of an epic playground. So Batman Begins, I don't know if you've seen it recently. It's filmed kind of all over the world.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, it feels more like a, at the time, traditional superhero movie than Dark Knight does. And that's actually what I like least about it. The weird giant monorail for our villain, showdown at the end. The way Arkham Island, I like the way they execute it, but it's just. It all feels a little hodgepodge. At the end of the day, it doesn't feel like a real city. Like you're saying in the way that the Dark Knight does.

[Lizzie Bassett]

No exteriors were shot in Chicago, New York, and London. Of course, a lot was shot on soundstages. To your point, there's a lot of it that is clearly computer generated, like the monorail. This time, Nolan wanted it to feel familiar, and he wanted Gotham to really, really exist. So let's put a pin in the. He also knew that he wanted his villain to be real as well. The Nolans and Goyer knew they wanted their Joker to be scary, and they knew something else right away. Their Joker would not have any backstory. But when Warner Brothers read the screenplay and discovered that easily the franchise's most beloved villain would not be getting any origin story, they panicked. According to Goyer, quote, people were worried. That was considered a very controversial thing. They pushed back quite hard on this, but Goyer and the Nolan brothers would not budge on it.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Had they already done the misdirect, like the three stories he tells or where he gives the false accounts?

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Cause I was wondering if that was a response to the studio saying, we want a backstory. And they're like, great, here's three.

[Lizzie Bassett]

No, I believe that was all in there. I think that it was very. They wanted to make it clear to the audience, we are not giving you this.

[Chris Winterbauer]

No. And I like the subversion of him saying, like, I'm gonna fuck with you in these different scenes. Right. Where he's just making these stories up.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It also kept reminding me of American Psycho, which, of course, we've covered on the podcast, where the thing that everyone kept pushing Mary Harron to do was saying, you have to give some kind of explanation for why Patrick Bateman is. The way he and Christian Bale were like, no, he's just an American Psycho. And that's very much what they do with the Joker here, which I think is brilliant. And then, of course, as we know, Todd Phillips made your least favorite movie, the Joker, which is entirely about an origin story.

[Podcast Advertiser]

A.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It did very well.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh, sorry. I fell asleep as it played inside of my mind. Massive respect to everybody who worked on every department in that movie. It looks and sounds amazing. I just.

[Michael J. White]

So.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I didn't hate it as much as you did, but I get it. Nolan made another controversial decision right away. He had no interest in hiring the man most synonymous with playing the Joker at that point, which was Jack Nicholson. He wanted the Joker to be genuinely scary, and that would come from him feeling real. And he just, I think, fairly did not think that it would make any sense. To bring Jack Nicholson in for that.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It would also connect it to, like, the older franchise.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Right.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It doesn't make a lot of sense. You also, you want to reinvent him for a younger audience. And Nicholson is well into his, what, 60s by this point at least.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. Now, Sir Michael Caine. Excuse me, Sir Michael Caine thought this was risky.

[Chris Winterbauer]

He found a ruby the size of

[Lizzie Bassett]

a 10 shrimp in his words. Quote, when Chris called me about the Dark Knight, I asked, who's the villain? He said, the Joker. I thought, oh, Jack Nicholson, who's going to top that? I thought for a moment, we're in trouble here. That's not a great decision. You don't try and top Jack. Nolan disagreed. He said, quote, I had no reservations about following Jack Nicholson's Joker. And that was very important to us deciding to do it. The Nolans went back to the earliest iterations of the Joker before he became a goofy trickster, which I think happened somewhere around the 40s. And prior to that, he was a full blown homicidal maniac. And that's the direction that they were headed Now. I thought going into this episode that they must have had to hunt far and wide to find the right actor for the Joker, but I was wrong. Nolan knew who he wanted before the script was even finished because I buried the lead earlier. Heath Ledger was an early frontrunner for Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins. Nolan had actually loved him for the role. They had met and talked about it, but Ledger had said, no, thank you. According to Nolan, he was quite gracious, but he said, I would never take part in a superhero film.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Interesting.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So I actually don't think he screen tested for it.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, I mean, he would have been young, very young. Cillian Murphy is also, I think, a little younger than Christian Bale, but Ledger would have been very young. He would have been 23, 24 when they were prepping that movie. He was born in 1980.

[Lizzie Bassett]

They would have been prepping it around 2004. So, yeah, so 24. Yeah. But Ledger changed his tune after seeing Batman Begins. He called Nolan personally and expressed his interest in the sequel and in particular in the Joker.

[Chris Winterbauer]

What if he called him and said, I'm ready to play Batman in the sequel.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Step aside, Christian. He was not worried about taking on the role at all. He said, I was a huge fan of Jack Nicholson's Joker, but having seen Chris's first film, I knew there was a big difference between a Chris Nolan film and a Tim Burton film. And so therefore there was enough room for a fresh portrayal. According to Nolan, he said, I talked with him about the anarchic elements that I saw as being the more realistic Joker, the guy who would actually frighten an audience. And he'd already come up with a lot of that on his. His own. Ledger said, we had identical images within our minds. And a little bit on Heath Ledger up to this point. He was born in Perth, Australia. He started out in Australian soap operas before moving to Hollywood in pursuit of a girlfriend. The relationship didn't last. He did, of course, break out opposite Julia Stiles in 10 Things I Hate about yout Again. Listen to our featurette about that on Friday. Very fun little movie. And then he starred in a brief lived television series. Then he really kicks off an absolutely insane run with Knight's Tale, Monster's Ball. So many more.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh, yeah, Monster's Ball.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. He's really good in that.

[Chris Winterbauer]

He is. And it's also such a tragic role and tragic movie. It's brutal.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, it is. It's not a fun watch, but it is good. And Ledger has said that at first he wasn't really, like, didn't care too much about acting. He said, quote, I was more concerned with having a good time than with focusing on work. But then, quote, I started to look at the work and think, oh, God, maybe I should be taking this seriously because people are gonna see this. All I saw were mistakes, a lack of care, a lack of attention to detail. And again, he's really young, and this is kind of where the pivot in his career happens. He stars in Brokeback Mountain in 2004, for which he earned an Oscar nomination, Golden Globe, BAFTA, SAG nominations, and the New York Film Critics Circle Award for Best Actor. So Ledger was cast, as we said, before the script was even finalized, which means he had tons of time to work on the character. There were, by the way, this is allegedly a few other actors waiting in the wings. In the event that Ledger's deal didn't close, do you have any other guesses as to who might have been considered for the Joker at this time?

[Chris Winterbauer]

Are they big names?

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes. Yes, they're definitely big names now. I think that they were medium to big names then.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Medium to big names then opposite Christian Bale. I mean, the one who makes a lot of sense to me, but he's not. I don't think he was big enough then or now. Is Michael Shannon. Who? I actually think Heath Ledger has shades of Michael Shannon in his performance a little bit.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

But no, just tell me. I'm not gonna be able to guess.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So. Sam Rockwell.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, he'd done Charlie's Angels villain turn in Charlie's Angels is.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Which he's very fun in.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. Not too far.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Adrien Brody. That one does not feel right to me.

[Chris Winterbauer]

That feels closer to Jared Leto in Suicide Squad.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. And then this one is actually my favorite. Paul Bettany.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Sure. Could be interesting.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Could be interesting. Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I'm programmed to see him as much more reserved now through some of his more recent performances, but I'm sure he could do it. He's a great actor.

[Lizzie Bassett]

He is. Well, just remember Chaucer in A Knight's Tale. But of course, Ledger's deal did close and he was the Joker. So Nolan had an actor who he saw eye to eye with on the character. They both wanted to work with each other. He's just been Oscar nominated. This seems like a home run, right? But on July 31, 2006, Warner Bros. Announced that the film would be called the Dark Knight, which, by the way, it's the first Batman movie without Batman in the title. And the official press release said Christian Bale will resume his role as Bruce Wayne. And Academy Award nominee Heath Ledger has been cast as the Joker. Chris, do you remember the reaction to this announcement?

[Chris Winterbauer]

No, not maybe now that you mention

[Lizzie Bassett]

it, it was good. It was not good.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, maybe it was like when people saw the trailer, they thought, oh, wait, we were wrong. This could be really good.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes. So according to Jonathan Nolan, quote, I didn't get it. The studio didn't get it, and the fan community, we were fucking pilloried for it. People called it the worst casting decision ever made. But Chris Nolan stuck to his guns, giving fans, in Jonathan's words, not what they were asking for, but what they want now. Geek Tyrant compiled a bunch of Internet reactions to Ledger's casting decision, including, I am not seeing this movie if he is in it. There are over a million better choices. And Heath Ledger, a Joker.

[Chris Winterbauer]

There are literally over 1 million better choices, better choices.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Heath Ledger a Joker? I don't think so. And now begins the second downfall of the Batman series. The film after this will probably introduce Robin, then Batgirl.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's good to know the Internet's always been as bad as it is.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's always been bad.

[Chris Winterbauer]

The takes have never been good.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, this is my favorite one. Yeah, great.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Jokeback Mountain.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It doesn't even make sense, but I do like it. They tried.

[Chris Winterbauer]

He tried.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Meanwhile, Heath Ledger buckled down and got to work. He said, quote, I sat around in a hotel room in London for about a month, and I Just locked myself away and formed a little diary and experimented with voices. I ended up landing more within the realm of, like, a psychopath. Someone with no empathy, very little to no conscience towards his acts, which is fun because there's no real limit to the boundaries to what he'd say or how you would say something or what he would do. He, of course, studied all the Batman comics and really dedicated to himself, to the part. Now, Chris, what do you think was one of the biggest challenges facing Nolan and Ledger in terms of creating the Joker?

[Chris Winterbauer]

I was gonna guess makeup and wardrobe.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Exactly. That was really hard for them to tackle because he has such an iconic and very cartoonish look to him.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So I wanna show you some of the inspiration that Nolan showed Ledger. These are Francis Bacon paintings, and we will put them on our Instagram.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I. Oh, yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Horrifying.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's like a terrified man with a melting face between two haunches of sliced cow leg hanging from the ceiling.

[Lizzie Bassett]

There's that one. There's the one where the guy's face is just sort of like streaming, bleeding upwards. There's a lot of smushed face makeup. You can definitely see exactly what they were pulling from with these. It's pretty cool. So at first, they really pulled back on the entire Joker look, removing the iconic green and purple outfit altogether. But then they realized it gone too far. They needed to carry some indicators of who he was. They slowly added back some of the Joker sauce. They also wanted to show that Joker didn't look after himself. His clothes had to be grubby. Hair looks like he would never wash it. But they wanted him to look like somebody who really dressed that way, not a costume. So costume designer Lindy Heming looked through a lot of images of real people. Vivienne Westwood. Johnny Rotten, Sid Vicious, Pete Doherty.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Johnny Rotten, Sid Vicious. That makes a lot of sense.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You've seen Pete Doherty. The hair. The hair's got a Pete Doherty edge to it. Iggy Pop. Keith Richards.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Iggy Pop. Yeah, yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

With the suits and Ashley. According to prosthetics supervisor Connor o', Sullivan, also, the facial scars were based on a very real inspiration. He said, quote, the terminology for this type of wound is a Glasgow or Chelsea smile. My references had to be real. A delivery of fruit machines was made to the estate near my workshop, and the man delivering them had a Chelsea smile. I plucked up the courage to ask him for a photo, and he told me the story of how he had got his scars while being involved with a dog fight. Needless to say, I didn't pursue the matter, but the photos proved to be very useful. Useful. Yikes.

[Chris Winterbauer]

We're clearly in the zeitgeist because Guillermo del Toro we just discussed Pan's Labyrinth uses that wound, or at least half of it on Captain Vidal in Pan's Labyrinth.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Yes.

[Lizzie Bassett]

These prosthetics, by the way, are really incredible. I didn't realize this, but Ledger's entire bottom lip is fake. It's one piece that extends across, and that whole front piece is not his mouth.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Wow. Yeah. I would have just assumed it was just the cheeks.

[Lizzie Bassett]

No. So O' Sullivan worked with his partner Rob Trenton for three years, and they cost him £25,000 to develop a carrier system that allowed you to keep prosthetics in a more whole sculptural piece. It also preserved the blended edges. That meant that the scars looked more real, looked incredible. And also it reduced the time of putting the makeup on.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, it's one application as opposed to three or two.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It only took, like, an hour or an hour and a half to do his makeup, which is crazy. And by the way, this is a little fun fact. The lip licking in the movie was actually functional. It kept the lower lip prosthetic from falling. Cause it would re wet the glue and re stick it. So he was doing it originally to keep it on, and then he just added it into the character so he could keep doing it throughout. Morgan Freeman, Gary Oldman, and Michael Caine, of course, reprised their roles from the first film. And Katie Holmes was famously recast with Maggie Gyllenhaal. By the way, this was not a creative choice. Nolan has been very adamant that he wanted Katie Holmes to return, and she actually chose to walk away. If you consider the timeline, that makes sense.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I had heard that she'd walked away. I didn't know why, but I'd heard that at some point.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You know, I mean, we talked about this on War of the Worlds, but she married in 2006. They'd been the center of a absolute media firestorm for at least a year at this point. She also had her daughter shortly thereafter. And.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, right.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I think she may have just wanted a break. Like, who could blame her? Rumors were also. The studio was fine with this because of the sort of disaster of the press for War of the Worlds. And Katie Holmes was very complimentary of Christopher Nolan and Maggie Gyllenhaal. And also, Maggie Gyllenhaal is a total class act. She called Katie Holmes personally and asked for permission before accepting the role, which. Which Holmes gladly gave her. So there was no Hard feelings there. And then, of course, there was Harvey Dent. The studio reportedly approached both Matt Damon and Hugh Jackman for the role. Both turned it down.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Hmm.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Matt Damon, I believe, due to Invictus. Hugh Jackman, I think, turned a lot of roles down, probably because of Wolverine. Might be difficult to exist in two worlds. Although I think he could have done this.

[Chris Winterbauer]

No, he's done roles not dissimilar to this. What's the political movie he did? I'm forgetting the frontrunner. And then Daemon makes a lot of sense. And obviously then. Well, Nolan's working with him now, but he has a great villainous heel turn in Interstellar.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I was gonna say Matt Damon is an excellent villain.

[Chris Winterbauer]

He can be a good villain. He doesn't do it enough.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. Never Forget the Talented Mr. Ripley.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's a great. His American Psycho.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Truly somehow scarier than Patrick Bateman, I would argue.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yes.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Liev Schreiber screen tested, as did Josh Lucas, Ryan Phillippe and Mark Ruffalo. All great choices. But of course, it was Aaron Eckhart who won the part, and he was coming in hot off of. Thank you for smoking. He so perfect for this. There's never been a blonder man.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, you know, he. If they're trying to cast the white knight who could shine brighter than Bale in these scenes, maybe it's the way they photograph him. He seems a little bigger than Bale. His jaw is even larger and, you know, you could crack a rock on it. He really has that all American look that really sells the role.

[Lizzie Bassett]

And he's a great actor and he's so menacing, you know, by the end of this.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And Nolan had considered him, or at least they got an incorrect coming for him for the lead in Memento to play Leonard Shelby in that film.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, interesting. That makes sense too. Also, I think the two face effect on him still looks so, so good.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. The architecture of his face enables it, I think in particular.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, he has such strong bone structure and prominent bone structure, but you can actually watch some behind the scenes of this. Obviously they're doing it via motion capture. So he does have, you know, mocap dots on his face, but they also did put half a bald cap and they do prosthetics on him so that his co stars had something act opposite.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Well, and also then the VFX artists have lighting reference on the prosthetics that they can try to match when they're doing their artistry later.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah.

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[Lizzie Bassett]

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[Lizzie Bassett]

Now. The script and casting had moved decently quickly for this size of a superhero hero movie. So Warner Brothers arranged for the bulk of soundstage filming to happen just outside London because England was offering mucho tax incentives to film productions. But Christopher Nolan was insistent that the main chase sequence in the film, featuring helicopters, Batmobile, a bat pod, a goddamn semi truck flipping on its ass must take place in a real goddamn American city. His rationale was that Gotham is in America even if it's not real. So Nolan was like, I'm not doing this in London. First of all, the London streets would not have looked right. They're also not wide enough. Also, London had pretty draconian restrictions on what could be filmed inside the city, so that was not going to work. So Nolan and his production designer, Nathan Crowley, started looking for Gotham. New York City was eliminated pretty quickly because the helicopter chase sequence would have required massive portions of the city to be shut down in a way that was not possible in Manhattan. So they scoured Los Angeles. Baltimore could have been interesting, and even Jacksonville, Florida. Florida. Before they realized they'd already been to Gotham. Chris and Batman Begins because Gotham was Chicago.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

A little bit of additional context about the movie business in Chicago. Chicago had been kind of a key player in the early days of moviemaking. But then, of course, we know the business moved west in the 20s. And then for about the next 50 years, Chicago gets totally forgotten. Until what movie that I'm covering Next, Chris, in 1980, put it back on the map. Get ready. It's somehow more insane than the Dark Knight in some ways.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Blues Brothers.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes, the Blues Brothers.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes, the Blues Brothers came back and to quote Richard Moskal, director of the Chicago Film Office, Hollywood saw that and said, wow, they let you do almost anything in Chicago. And they really did. So in the 80s, Chicago's film production picked up significantly. Of course, you get John Hughes setting everything in Chicago. Breakfast Club, Sixteen Candles, all the Home Alone movies, Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I was gonna say Home Alone. Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

But in the 90s, that ends up tapering off because Hollywood sees Canada and says, ah, it's cheaper there. And then in 2002, Chicago, the movie came out. And despite that being its title, it was basically not filmed in Chicago except for a couple of exteriors. It was filmed in Canada, which made people in Chicago realize we're losing all of our money to those Canadians. Canadians. So in 2004, they start offering a modest tax credit. In 2006, they bumped that up big time. They would award tax credits equal to 20% of a production's in state spending. So that was an enormous incentive for Warner Brothers to say yes to Chicago. Nolan had spent a decent amount of time in Chicago. As we said, he actually grew up partially there. And Nathan Crowley had just shot the lake house there. So they were both familiar with. With the city. That tax credit's going to be huge.

[Chris Winterbauer]

The lake house.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, the lake house.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Keanu and Sandra. It's Sandy B. Sandy B and Keanu. Different times, same lake house.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Same lake house. That's right. But Chris, what sealed the deal was Lower Wacker Drive. Lower Wacker Drive is an underground roadway sealed off from the streets above in a part of town that clears out at night usually. It's got multiple lanes, ramps that go up to Upper Wacker, exits across steel bridges, and. And crucially, because it was underground, you could close the entrances quite easily. So the Dark Knight was ready for Chicago. But was Chicago ready for the Dark Knight? Because Batman Begins had filmed in the city for three weeks, the Dark Knight was set to film for three months. And Warner Bros. Was getting a little nervous. Could the city really handle what they had in mind for this production? So In April of 2007, Nolan, his wife, producer Emma Thomas, and producers Charles Roven and Lisa Rawlins met with Chicago Mayor Daly, Richard Moskal, of course, the head of the film office and Chicago city's chief emergency officer to lay out their plans, which included a massive chase sequence which they're like, listen, this could take a month to film. It's going to require nightly street closures, aerial work with helicopters that would be at least as extensive as Batman Begins, non stop stunts and pyrotechnics, including. We'd like to blow up a real building.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. Do you have a hospital? We can just detonate, just bomb. Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Something around 500 crew members support vehicles, trucks, also Batmobiles and Bat pods. According to Chicago Magazine, quote, the level of logistical support and coordination of public safety efforts would place a heavy burden on city departments, the film office, police, fire, streets and sanitation, traffic and emergency management. The executives wanted to hear it from the top that Chicago was prepared for the onslaught. So after Nolan explained that he basically wanted to blow up their city, Mayor Daley reportedly turned to Richard Moscow and said, you're going to take care of this, right? Cool. Moscow's just like dripping in sweat the Chicago way.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You're going to take care of this, right?

[Chris Winterbauer]

The Bulls are kind of a mess. The Bears are kind of a mess. The Cubs are kind of a mess. We need something to blow it up. Chicago here. Yeah. Is this the movie that's going to

[Lizzie Bassett]

bring people to Chicago? I don't know. So on April 18, 2000, they kicked off filming with the opening bank robbery sequence at the old Chicago main post office, which is just one of the greatest opening sequences in film history. Fichtner with his machine gun Fichtnering things up.

[Chris Winterbauer]

No, no, no. Ficht has a sawed off shot.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Sorry, it's a shotgun. Yes, you're right. I apologize.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Then he just busts out from under his little desk there.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, it's Gotham.

[Chris Winterbauer]

His little weird fashion where he looks over everybody through a class window. And I do love just William Fichtner. We can call it the Inaugural Overqualified Character Actor Award is what we should

[Lizzie Bassett]

call it, which is every small part in this movie.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yes, absolutely. But Fichner, I always love Fichner. He's great in this opening scene.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So good.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And it's a bunker.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You guys are dead.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You know who you're robbing from now. This was not technically principal photography. Since they were shooting the sequence in imax. Nolan had been adamant that for the Dark Knight they would shoot the film on 65 millimeter. So it was literally all shot for Inax, instead of being filmed on 35 millimeter and blown up, which is what was done before this. And Warner Brothers is like, that's going to cost approximately a bajillion dollars. And also the IMAX cameras are the size of refrigerators and sound like monster trucks. So they compromised on filming only four action sequences in 65 millimeter. And that is this. The bank heist, the car chase with the Bat pod flipping, Batman's raid to extract Lao, and then the Joker leaving the hospital. The rest would be 35 millimeter, reformatted digitally for IMAX screenings. Absolutely enormous shout out to Wally Pfister for managing these competing aspect ratios and making a final result that was seamless in both IMAX and regular theatrical formats. It took so much work to make sure that every single shot worked for both. It is a crazy accomplishment. I wish I could see this in IMAX again because it was. It was amazing. And finally, actual principal photography kicked off on June 8, 2007, and Chicago held its first ever press conference to announce the arrival of a film cast and crew with Nolan Bale and Mayor Daly in attendance.

[Chris Winterbauer]

So what he was really saying was like, I want to take some pictures with Christian. With Christian. You're going to make this work. I don't know why I'm giving this weird accent.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You're doing him like Buffalo Bill now.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, it puts the lotion in the basket. It puts the Christian Bale next to me on stage.

[Lizzie Bassett]

The first scene that Bale and Ledger filmed together was the interrogation scene. And Christian Bale was immediately pretty blown away by Heath Ledger. He told the Hollywood Reporter, as you see in the movie, Batman starts beating the Joker and realizes this is not your ordinary because the more I beat him, the more he enjoys it, the more I'm giving him satisfaction. Heath was behaving in a very similar fashion. He was kind of egging me on. I was saying, you know, I don't actually need to hit you. It's gonna look just as good if I don't. And he's going, go on, go on, go on. He was slamming himself around. There were tiled walls inside that set which were cracked and dented from him hurling himself into them. His commitment was total. And it seems like pretty much everyone was very taken by Ledger, who remained in character almost. Here's Aaron Eckhart on Larry King talking about the only scene he shares with Ledger, which is in the hospital. Eckhart basically didn't have any lines in that scene and was wondering what the hell he was going to do that whole time when Ledger arrived and started circling his hospital bed.

[Podcast Narrator or Producer]

So he would come around and, you know, be talking to himself in the corner like this. And then he would come up. I was laying there and I was watching him the whole time. And he came up and would walk around me like this. And I would watch him and I would watch him. He'd walk around the hospital bed like this. I'd watch him. Didn't say anything for maybe an hour. He would walk around and then we'd watch him. And then he'd start saying his lines and I would watch him. Boom. Watch him come around to bed like this. And then all of a sudden my hand would go up like this, and he caught my hand. So we just went through this organic process of developing this scene, which was really nothing. And then when we came time to shoot, we had this thing beautifully choreographed, and, you know, he did. We never said a word to each other. Wow. Yeah. And then it was a long day and we walked out to our back to our trailers and Heath was here and I was walking and he puts his hand on my shoulder and he goes, that's what acting's all about.

[Chris Winterbauer]

But he said it as the Joker.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Chris Winterbauer]

That's what acting's all about.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Now, Ledger also absolutely nailed some insane stunts in this, including that shot of him jumping off a two story tall pile of money sliding down, and then just beating Lau in the head with a stack of cash.

[Chris Winterbauer]

He nails Lau in the face with that stack of cash.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Apparently that was the first take of them doing that.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I believe it. He looks like he knows what he's

[Lizzie Bassett]

doing, but he also doesn't, which is so fun about that. It's so, like, wild and loose.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Well, that's the point. Yeah. But he is not Tom Cruise throwing a baseball in War of the Worlds. Wow.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You're never going to let that go.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Never. Never.

[Lizzie Bassett]

But Chris, that stunt was nothing compared to what the trained professionals were doing on the actual streets of Chicago. In particular, of course, the 18 wheeler flip, which happened for real on La Salle street, which is insane. According to Moscow, there's some pretty valuable property on either side of the street. Northern Trust is right there. The La Salle bank building is on the east side. Those are landmark buildings, Pillars of finance. Irreplaceable. And it's not like you can 100% guarantee that an 18 wheeler isn't going to veer slightly off course when you flip it upside down. It's long enough.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So they did their best. They tested the flip in a safe space before bringing the truck to lasalle Street. And then city engineers used the results from the test runs to designate a spot on the pavement where a piston could be fired down from the back of the truck onto the pavement hard enough to flip it end over end.

[Chris Winterbauer]

If there are any physicists in our audience who can send us what the force would be. Force needed.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, I mean, it had to be

[Chris Winterbauer]

insane, the downward force required to rifle the back of that truck up like that. Just please send us your napkin mask, please. I would love to know, please.

[Lizzie Bassett]

And also, as these physicists, I'm sure can tell us, they had to hit that spot exactly to make sure the truck didn't smash into a building and to make sure the pavement underneath was strong enough to take the hit. Because there were pipes, wires, sewer lines running underneath the street. And yes, Chris, this all means that there had to be a real live person driving that truck during the this stunt who would fire the piston. That was legendary stuntman Jim Wilke. He really did it. It's crazy. And fortunately, it all worked and they didn't smush the surrounding buildings. In fact, the majority of the stunts in this movie are practical. According to special effects supervisor Chris Corbold, Nolan's stance was essentially no CGI unless something is physically impossible. In reality, both the Batpod and the Batmobile were fully functional vehicles, which is just so cool. Crazy. According to editor Lee Smith, quote, you'll never get anything to look real unless you get a real guy to fly through the air or ride on the bat pod. Those shots are real and very dangerous, but very well choreographed and very well thought out. Now, it should be mentioned there Is a part of that sequence on Lower Wacker Drive. That is 1/3 Miniatures. It's the Tumbler, the Batmobile opposite the garbage truck. Those are miniatures, and they look absolutely incredible. But again, that matches what Nolan's asking for, which is, you know, if something is not physically possible, then they were going to recreate it.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, I mean, the only other thing I can really think of in that whole sequence is just after the hell helicopter hits the wires, right? There's the moment of it spinning.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, yeah, well, that's. Of course not.

[Chris Winterbauer]

But then it's. There's a takeover by a real flaming helicopter on the ground. You know what I mean? After it crashes, clearly, Nolan said, well, once it's on the ground, it's gotta be a real helicopter. Light it on.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Light it on fire.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Light it on fire. Yes.

[Lizzie Bassett]

But doing things for real meant a lot of disruption for the city of Chicago. Over the course of that summer, Chicago city officials had to constantly remind people that the helicopters on fire trucks flipping, traffic jams, actual explosions were not a terrorist attack. But. But were in fact, Batman. That explosion at Gotham General Hospital, as you mentioned, yes, it is 100% real. They blew up a real building, or rather a real candy factory. That is the administrative building of the old Brax candy factory. Now, there is a persistent rumor that the moment of the Joker fiddling with the detonator outside was improv on the part of Heath Ledger.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I heard that at some point. Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's not true at all. The special effects team were very meticulous with the sequence. They rehearsed it more than 10 times. The whole thing was taken. The reason they did that was to give him and the camera crew enough time to get away from the building before that massive explosion would happen.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Also. It's really funny.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's really funny. It's great.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's a great moment.

[Lizzie Bassett]

And of course, it's a testament to Ledger's acting ability that people thought it was improvised. But just to be very clear, it's not. Now, there is one stunt in this film, Chris. One Batman stunt that is not quote unquote, real. Do you know which one it is?

[Chris Winterbauer]

One Batman stunt that's not quote unquote, real.

[Lizzie Bassett]

They did not.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Is it the skyhook?

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, it's Batman flying over the city of Hong Kong. It's when he first enters the building.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Got it.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So the crazy thing is, they tested doing this stunt for real with a stuntman in Chicago in what, like a wingsuit? I'm going to show you. So he jumps from the roof of a building. He does a swan dive on a cable attached to a helicopter, which then catches him and swings him on a pendulum, carries him off into the sunset. Would you like to see this test footage?

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Okay. Look at this shit.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It looked like the stunt double did. Did jump off the building to start.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Hold that thought. They do. It's one of the craziest things I've ever seen.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's up there with the damn bungee jump in.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Look at that.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's crazy. I mean, it's an amazing stunt. The only reason. I don't know if this is why they didn't do it, but the reason, to me it doesn't work, is there's no way to control your body from rotating off axis while it's happening.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's not why.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Okay.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's not why.

[Chris Winterbauer]

They just wouldn't let them do it in Hong Kong.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's correct.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Okay.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Hong Kong. Someone said no.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's crazy that Chicago and then Hong Kong said no.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Chicago was like, totally fine with Christopher Nolan throwing people off of buildings and flying them through the air attached to helicopters. Hong Kong was not. They were very restrictive about what the film could do in the city, particularly when it came to the helicopters. Which meant that the special effects team did have to use CGI for those shots. But to your point earlier, they still used green screen footage of a stuntman doing an actual dive, not off of a building. It's entirely green screen. But they dove, like, over a hundred feet for that shot.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It looks like it. It's looks great.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, it also is actually Christian Bale standing on the edge of that building at the beginning of the shot. Apparently, it was his idea.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Take that, Tom Cruise.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I know. Well, Christian Bale's smart enough not to jump off, but he'll stand there. Absolutely could not be me. A brief aside on Hong Kong. It actually proved their most difficult location. Even though city officials seemed on board with the production, locals were not. They were pretty pissed that a foreign film was being granted all the rights to film there. When local filmmakers faced much more difficult restrictions, both financial and physical. Nolan's Hong Kong production company actually asked the businesses and residents in a specific area to keep their lights on when they were filming overnight because Nolan loved the glittering skyline. And instead, over 80% of the businesses turned their lights off in protest, making it a very dark night. They cited the environmental effect of wasting so much energy when Nolan could simply recreate the lights in post. But I think they were pissed.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Well, also, we should mention this movie is like Very weirdly, specifically anti China, which maybe it was really consistent for the time. But even just Aaron Eckhart saying, you know, cheap Chinese knockoff, get your guns in America. I know he's going to get shot in the courtroom.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Maybe you should buy American. Which is one of the funniest lines in the whole thing. Yeah, actually. I mean, that is the reason that they did not release this in mainland China.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Oh, interesting.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah. Because the government was not too happy about it.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I mean, and the villain is like, it's just this very vague Chinese company that's laundering all of these mafios money.

[Lizzie Bassett]

The South China Morning Post also reported that a scene where Batman jumps into the harbor had to be scrapped when a water sample came back heavily polluted. Nolan denied this, saying, that was my decision. Nothing to do with pollution. It was simply a script decision. Once you see the finished film, you'll understand why. As far as the pollution goes, I honestly have no problem dumping movie stars in it.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Frank Darabont with human giant. Tim Robbins in.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes, in Shawshank.

[Chris Winterbauer]

The sewer scene in Shawshank. Yeah.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, Wally Pfister put things even more bluntly, saying the Chinese government was a nightmare in terms of filming stuff.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I believe it.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, yeah. All right, well, that's our aside on Hong Kong. Let's take it back to Chicago. Finally, in Late August of 2007, the Dark Knight stopped terrorizing Chicago and moved on to London. And unfortunately, it was outside of Chertsey, Surrey, that tragedy struck the production. On September 24, 2007, the stunt team was performing a test run for a scene where the Batmobile is blown up. Special effects technician Conway Wycliffe was riding in the back of a Nissan Navara 4x4, leaning out the window and operating a camera to film a stunt police car that was running parachute parallel to them. The vehicle, which was being driven by another stunt technician, Bruce Monroe Armstrong, failed to make a 90 degree turn and instead slammed into a tree at 20 miles per hour. The rest of the crew on the ground thought the stunt had gone to plan until they saw Bruce come running around the corner, and they knew that something had gone horribly wrong. Conway Wycliffe was pronounced dead at the scene of the crash, having suffered catastrophic injuries. The investigator who was assigned to the case believed that the police car had launched a little bit ahead of the Nissan and that the stunt driver accelerated to 34 mph to turn. Try and keep up. While that might not seem like that big a difference in a moment like this, it was enough to kill someone because it meant the Nissan was going too fast to make the turn. I believe this is the shot where the police car ends up going up a ramp and then flipping over. So I wonder if the Nissan needed to turn when the police car hit the ramp, but I don't know exactly. Special effects supervisor Christopher Kourbold was charged and tried for Wycliffe's death and failing to ensure his safety. He was, however, unanimously found not guilty at trial. It seems it all hinged on one unfortunate Wycliffe was not wearing a seatbelt. When questioned about this at trial, Corbould said, Bruce and Conway are both middle aged, responsible, competent technicians who both have a driving license and a duty of care to themselves, which included putting a seatbelt on to protect themselves. That is my expectation. Conway Wycliffe was an extremely experienced stunt technician who had worked on Batman Begins, Casino Royale, Die Another Day Children of Men and women, Many more He left behind a wife and two children. You know, it's just a reminder that this stuff is inherently dangerous and it is serious. And I believe that this team was taking the utmost care in terms of these stunts. It's just that the tiniest thing can make it go catastrophically wrong. And it did.

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[Chris Winterbauer]

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[Lizzie Bassett]

In November of 2007, principal photographer wrapped and Jack Nicholson chose this opportunity to say he had no plans to watch the film, claiming that after Tim Burton's film they kind of drove the franchise into the ground.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Thanks Jack.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Thanks Jack. As the film went into post production, Nolan kept the cut very close to his chest. According to Christian Bale quote chris is a very private director and there's certainly no way he'd be letting me into the editing suite. I tried once and I got a very polite fuck off. Frequent Nolan collaborator Lee Smith edited the film and they had an absolute beast of a project when it came to cutting together the IMAX and 35 millimeter footage. One scene gave them a ton of trouble. They couldn't make the cut down to 35 millimeter work, but in a stroke of luck that one scene had also been shot in 35, so they were able to use that as Nolan and Smith worked on the edit. An interview with Heath Ledger was published in the New York Times. He'd given it while he was in London filming and fully immersed in the Joker. His interviewer, Sarah La Lyle, wrote, it is a physically and mentally draining role. His Joker is a psychopathic, mass murdering schizophrenic clown with zero empathy, he said cheerfully. And as often happens when he throws himself into a part, he's not sleeping much, Heath Ledger told her last week. I probably slept an average of two hours a night, he said. I couldn't stop thinking. My body was exhausted and my mind was still going. One night he took an Ambien which failed to work. He took a second one and fell into a stupor, only to wake up an hour later, his mind still racing. She described a scene where Ledger had stepped outside to smoke a cigarette and seemed unable to to stay still. He took his hair tie out, put it back in, took it out, put on a hat, took the hat off, had another cigarette. She caught a glimpse of a book sitting on his Kitchen table. It was the diary he'd kept as the Joker. And she wrote that Mr. Ledger seemed almost embarrassed that the book had been spotted, as if he'd been caught trying to get extra credit in School. At 1pm on January 22, 2008, Heath Ledger's housekeeper, Teresa Solomon, came to his apartment and let herself in with her key. She went into his room to change a light bulb and saw that Heath was asleep on the bed and snoring. So she left, thinking nothing was wrong. At 2:45pm his massage therapist arrived for her appointment, but he didn't answer when she knocked on the door. So she tried calling a cell phone and again got no response. At this point, she went into the bedroom, set up her massage table, then went over to wake him up. But he was cold to the touch. Diana Wallazin, the massage therapist, assumed he was unconscious, but instead of calling the police, she made three calls to Mary Kate Olsen. The two had been casually dating for a few months at that point. Reportedly, Wallazin was afraid that this would be a media circus. I'm sure she thought she was protecting Ledger. It seems like she thought, who knows? It seems like she thought that this was not as urgent as it was. Olsen said she would send her private security guards. At some point after that, though not all that quickly, Wallacen realized that Heath Ledger was not just unconscious, but may in fact be dead, at which point she called 911, but it was too late. Paramedics arrived at the same time as Mary Kate Olsen's security guards. It's all very, very weird. I do want to be clear, though. Mary Kate Olsen was like 21 years old. She got absolutely ripped to shreds and blamed for Heath Ledger's death. According to medical examiner's office, Ledger took, quote, prescribed therapeutic doses or less of each medication he ingested. However, the medications were not meant to be taken together. The cumulative effect was that the actor's brainstem function that controls breathing was impaired and Heath Ledger fell asleep and never woke up. So as far as we know, she did not procure drugs for him. She denied that she was never charged. His father, Kim Leger, said, while no medications were taken in excess, we learned today the combination of doctor prescribed drugs proved lethal for our boy. Keith's accidental death serves as a caution to the hidden dangers of combining prescription medication. Even at low dosage, he added, families rarely experience the uplifting, warm and massive outpouring of grief and support, as have we from every corner of the planet. This has deeply and profoundly touched our hearts and Lives. We are eternal, eternally grateful. By pretty much all accounts at this point, it seems clear the death was entirely accidental. He did not know not to take those medications at the same time, potentially because he'd received prescriptions from two different doctors who were not communicating. Unfortunately, it's not an uncommon situation, but it, you know, it is a cautionary tale and it's very sad. He left behind a two year old daughter with his former fiance, Michelle Williams. He had been in the midst of filming The Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus, directed by Terry. Terry Gilliam, his friends Colin Farrell, Jude Law and Johnny Depp all came on board to play different physical forms of Heath Ledger's character. And all three donated their salaries to his daughter. Rumors have always swirled that it was the Joker that did him in, that the role had exhausted him so completely. I think that New York Times piece that I read some quotes from is very much to blame for that. But based on his own account of his time on set as well as his co stars, that does not seem to be true. His family also didn't denies this. Christian Bale told GQ in 2012, yes, he immersed himself into the film completely, but at the same time he was so easygoing. Heath was infectious. His death makes me angry because I know our friendship would have blossomed had he not died. He's done a real defining characterization of the Joker that both audiences and the industry will no doubt praise and then acknowledge in time. And here is Michael J. White on Collider Live and he plays Gamble. You talk about him having so much fun with it, but also being so deep into it. And obviously there's been a lot of talk about after he did pass away, how much effect this character had on him. What do you think about that?

[Michael J. White]

That drives me up a wall. Because people want to write the story that this dark character consumed him, drives me up a wall. That's people's imagination. That's the story they want to know. You didn't see that.

[Podcast Narrator or Producer]

You just saw a dude having fun.

[Michael J. White]

This dude had fun, like, you know. And cut. So anyway, it was just like that. And you could see his playful character because that thing with the, with the. When he comes out of the examination room and he does the hand sanitizer, you know, he's playing, you know, he just did that for a goof or the thing when he's.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, I was gonna say even when

[Podcast Advertiser]

he couldn't start the detonator, you know,

[Michael J. White]

he's having a ball. He's modulating his voice. He's even asking us, Us, the guys who are day players and everything else. You know, what do you think? He would do a. He would do a voice modulation. And one of the times when we were face to face, he does this really, you know, growly one that kind of Tom Waits.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Ish.

[Michael J. White]

Yeah. And I'm like, dude, I like that. He asked me what did I think? And I'm like, man, I like when you do that. That kind of. That one. And he's like, you really think so? I'm like, yeah. I'm like, my God, this dude's asking me. I mean, that doesn't usually happen.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That seems to be the general consensus from pretty much everyone who was actually on the set. And Heath Ledger himself said, it's the most fun I've had playing a role. I'm really surprised Chris knew that I could do it. And I don't know how he came to cast me, but, yeah, it is the bomb. It's definitely the most fun I've had and the most freedom I've had. As for the film, they actually weren't missing anything from Ledger's performance. There was no ADR needed because Nolan had pushed to capture almost all of what he needed on set in terms of sound. They'd captured a few wild lines after some of the IMAX takes because the cameras were so loud and they were able to use those to cover any gaps really quickly.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Wild Lines, if anybody's not familiar. So with the IMAX cameras, right, they're

[Lizzie Bassett]

very loud, so you can't hear anything.

[Chris Winterbauer]

The dialogue's going to be usable, and they've gotten a lot quieter over time. But Wild Lines is the sound recordist, boom operator will sit with the actor, sometimes the director too, and just capture a few run throughs of the dialogue roughly performed to the same extent that it was just done in the scene. And what's funny is human vocal patterns are so consistent that you often can cut these wild lines in to the visual performance that was captured minutes earlier, and it totally matches. You can also use alt takes as a huge thing where you can take the delivery from a different take that you like the inflection of, and you can shove it in the visual performance of a different take that you like the visuals of and lines up so effectively. We have specific ways that we say things individually, and it's really hard for us to move away from those timings. So it would just amaze people, I think, you know, how much swapping in of dialogue there really is in movies.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, absolutely. Now the film's marketing had put the Joker front and center prior to Ledger's death. And according to Warner Bros. Head of marketing Sue Kroll, it became very clear when the family and others started to see some of Heath's bravado, performance and what a centerpiece it was to the movie that there was no thought of marketing the film film without him. Many did point out that the campaign did seem to shift some focus to Harvey Dent after his death, I think, understandably. But they didn't shy away from keeping the Joker very present. And on July 18, 2008, the Dark Knight was released and became the fourth film ever to cross $1 billion worldwide. It was nominated for eight Academy Awards. Cinematography, editing, art direction, makeup, sound mixing, sound editing, visual effects, and best supporting Actor for Heath Ledger. It would of course win for sound editing and Heath Ledger performance, I think very deservedly. But Chris, it was not nominated for best picture. Do you know what Eternal Troll is responsible for that?

[Chris Winterbauer]

Harvey Weinstein somehow.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Harvey Weinstein somehow, yes. Even though the Dark Knight had been seen as an early front runner and I think absolutely deserved to be nominated if not win, frankly, based on what was up that year, Weinstein had done what he did best and jammed the reader down every.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I didn't see the Raider.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's right.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I went to the theater and I stood in line. I didn't see the Raider. Go watch the 2009. Hugh Jackman gives the greatest opening number performance.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Incredible. But I wonder if that was a bit of an inside joke about this because he had really jammed that movie into this race. That movie's fine. It's not the Dark Knight. I like the reader too, but we may cover it at some point because the behind the scenes of that featured an all out war between Weinstein and Scott Root. But Chris, these were the other nominees in the best picture category. Slumdog Millionaire. Which one? The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, Frost, Nixon, Milk and the Reader. I'm kicking some of those out of there for the Dark Knight for sure.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. Well, I'm not going to name names, but there are a couple.

[Lizzie Bassett]

There's a couple I would pull out. Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

That have aged like milk. Not milk. I actually like milk, but I had to make that joke. But yeah, no, I would put the Dark Knight in. And this was right before we started opening things up, I think, to movies like the Dark Knight.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So this is actually the reason.

[Chris Winterbauer]

That's what I thought.

[Lizzie Bassett]

One of the main reasons for the expansion of the best picture category to 10 nominees.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And James Cameron was like, yes, Avatar is coming.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, God, please stop. People were pissed that this didn't get nominated. And I agree. I think you could absolutely kick, frankly, several of those out of that category. I don't know if you needed to explain, I think you could have just gotten a couple of those out.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I think Lizzie would have kicked all five out and just put the Dark Knight in.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Honestly, no. Leave Frost Nixon in.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I love that Frost Nixon is the one you're keeping. I think it's a good movie. It is a good movie.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's a good movie. I didn't see the Reader.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Also, Sam Rockwell, he showed up in that one.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's right. I'm a Michael Sheen. Stan until the end. Don't ever take him out of Michael Sheen.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Making vampires watchable in every form somehow with both Twilight and Underworld. Yeah, I mean, amazing.

[Lizzie Bassett]

He, I think, was the most fun celebrity I ever got to interview at IMDb. He was so fun.

[Chris Winterbauer]

The only person who I would imagine could also be fun. Maybe not in the same way. Matthew Rhys is so charming and entertaining.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, my God. Yes. I love him too.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I would die.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I know. Please, Michael, if you want to come back. Matthew, if you want to come on, please, Please. We love you both. All right, well, that wraps up our coverage of the Dark Knight. Chris, what went right.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I'll leave you Heath Ledger.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Okay.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I am going to give it to the entire SFX team. The special effects team.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes.

[Chris Winterbauer]

They would be responsible for working in conjunction with the stunt team. The piston, driving that semi truck in the air, doing the scale model work in a lot of these scenes or working with them all the pyrotechnics that

[Lizzie Bassett]

this film features blowing up an actual building.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Obviously there was an on set track tragedy here. And like you said, we always need to remember how dangerous these things are. And this goes to show you actually that they did all of the big things right. I think in this movie.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

But again, it's like you can't even the smallest slip up or omission or oversight can result in something deadly, which should never happen on a movie. I'll set that aside for a moment because that was a little unusual and specific. And it seems like everything else that they did was safely done and effectively done and pretty amazing.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I agree. I think the special effects work in this movie, the stunt work, I don't know if it's been topped. I know Tom Cruise is jumping off every building in plane he can, but this movie is remarkable in what they achieved. And it just looks so good, especially on the backdrop of Chicago I just. I think it's one of the greatest movies ever made, and it just happens to be a Batman film. And for my. What went right, you called it. Obviously, I have to give it to Heath Ledger. You know, this movie, it transcends the comic book genre. However, it does so without failing to acknowledge the comic book genre, if that makes sense. It manages to live both in a very real world while still being heightened and fun and open over the top. And it's Heath Ledger's performance that really anchors all of that alongside Christian Bale, who, again, like, what he does is not as fun, but it is just as important. We obviously lost an enormous talent with Heath Ledger. It is a real tragedy that we lost him as early as we did. It's so sad. And, you know, I hope everyone goes out and rewatches the Dark Knight and appreciates this performance anew because it is transcendent. So that's why what went right? And that ends our coverage of the Dark Knight.

[Chris Winterbauer]

A couple of other thoughts. I had Loiter as a little mode for the Batmobile.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, yes, very funny.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Intimidate the die a hero line. Christopher Nolan has said that. That is the line that gets quoted to him, of course, most often. And Jonathan wrote it nice. So he always is embarrassed by that.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's a great line.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I love Gary Oldman, who played almost as close to a Joker character as we've ever had, and the professional prior to this version of the Joker, playing the most anti Joker role of all time. The most mellow, chill Gary Oldman ever.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's actually why he took this part. They initially, for Batman Begins, they talked to him about playing Ra's Al Ghul, which would of course go to Liam Neeson. And he didn't want to play another villain. So he was like, no, thank you. And Christopher Nolan came back to him and was like, I have a different idea. I haven't really seen you do this. What about Commissioner Gordon? And he. He's really good.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I wondered if he ever considered Joey Pants Joe Panigliano for Commissioner Gordon as well, because I just was rewatching Memento.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Interesting.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I do think this is one of the best movies about. Weirdly, it's one of the best movies about domestic terrorism in a lot of ways. I do also, though, think this movie is kind of weirdly pro Patriot act in some ways.

[Lizzie Bassett]

100%. He creates a surveillance device at the end, but he does destroy it.

[Chris Winterbauer]

This movie has some interesting things to say on that front. And then I just. What I think this movie. What we should take from it as we go into this new era of superhero movies. In theory, with, I don't know, Dr. Doom coming out this fall or winter, it knows that it doesn't need global stakes and I really appreciate that. Yes, we have a prisoner's dilemma on fairies at the end and vaguely we could know these people could blow up. But ultimately this movie's very intimate and the stakes are very intimate. It's just, is Rachel gonna live or die? Is Harvey gonna rise or fall? Will Batman take off his mask or not? Right. And that totally works. And it's amazing.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's all you need.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Giant world ending aliens.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So unless you're Independence Day and then you keep those.

[Chris Winterbauer]

You do need them then. Yes, absolutely. All right, Lizzy, thank you so much. We are coming back next week, you guys, with something a little different. Very fun. We're going to be doing a primer on spaghetti westerns and then we're going to be hitting up, we're just going to do another trilogy out of order. We're going to going to be hitting up the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's the third spiritually in Sergio Leone's spaghetti western Dollars trilogy and we are so excited to bring those to you guys next week. Lizzy, if folks are enjoying this show, how can they support it?

[Lizzie Bassett]

You can leave us a rating or review on whatever podcast you're listening to this on. You can tell a friend or family member what went wrong. It's pretty good. Remember the Dark Knight? Pretty good too. Listen to it. Episode about it. You can subscribe in both Apple and Spotify now for bonus episodes. We do at least one every month. This month, of course, because it is Christopher Nolan month and Anne Hathaway summer we are covering the Odyssey. We usually do more than one though, so there's a lot of content you can get there. And if you want an ad free feed as well, you can join us on patreon where for $5 you get everything that I have just mentioned plus the ad free episodes. And for 50, $50 a month you can get a shout out from the Batman just like one of these.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Sometimes the truth isn't good enough. Adrian Pang, Korea Angeline Renee Cook, Ben Shindleman, Blaze Ambrose, Brian Donahue, Brittney Morris, Brooke Cameron Smith Sometimes people deserve Moore, C. Grace B. Chris Gallagher, Chris Leo, David Friscolandi, Darren and Dale Conkling.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh Jesus.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Don Schaible M. Zodia Evan Downey, Felicia G. I have one rule. Film it yourself. Frankenstein, Galen and Miguel, the Broken Glass Kids, the cast and crew of Winfrey Trip to Browntown. You're going to love me. Half greyhound. I have the biggest man crush on. Chris Winterbauer. James McAvoy, Jason Frankel, J.J. rapido. John D. Wilshire.

[Lizzie Bassett]

God, how did he do this for a whole movie?

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Jory Hill Piper Jose Emilano Salto Del Georgio Karina Canaba. I don't need help. Kate Elrington.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Kathy Lean Olsen.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Amy Elgeschlager McCoy Lena LJ Lousy Susan Lydia Howes Mark Bertha Mariposas Humans. Matthew Jacobson. Michael McGrath. Nate Ashley. Nate the Knife. Rosemary Southward Rural Jer. Sadie. Just Sadie.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Scott Oshida.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

I'm not wearing hockey pads. Soman Chainani Steve. Steve Winterbauer. Suzanne Johnson. The Provost family. The O's sound like O's. I'm Batman, Rachel.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Wow.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Why didn't Nolan call me?

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's like he's in the room with me, but I can't see him.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Because he slammed your head into the table? Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I was wondering, is that a false hand when he punches his hand on the table?

[Lizzie Bassett]

I don't think so.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Just hit me, Daddy.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly Lizzie Bassett or another contributor)]

Hit me.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I'll. All right, Lizzy. Well, we'll see you guys next week as we head back to a more morally ambiguous landscape not shot in the United States.

[Lizzie Bassett]

All right, see you in Italy. Bye.

[Podcast Narrator or Producer]

What went Wrong is a sad boom Podcast presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer. Post production and music by David Bowman.

[Lizzie Bassett]

This episode was researched by Laura woods

[Podcast Narrator or Producer]

and edited by Karen Krups.