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- [00:00]
Lizzie Bassett
This episode of what Went Wrong is sponsored by surfshark, your complete all in one security suite Here. On this show, we explore the things that go wrong behind the scenes of movies. But let's be honest, in most cases, none of those disasters really affect us directly. The same can't be said for the disaster that might be lurking right on your own laptop. Maybe you clicked the wrong link by accident. Maybe you just got a random friendly email letting you know that your passwords have been exposed in a massive data breach. We don't want your life to become an episode of what Went Wrong, so we've partnered with surfshark. You you may already know them for their vpn, which is great for keeping your data private and encrypting your connection. But surfshark is also a one stop shop that keeps things from going wrong in your digital life. They have a web content blocker that focuses strictly on prevention, filtering out malicious sites before you can even access them. Plus they have an alert feature that tells you right away if your passwords have been leaked. And the best part? One single account covers unlimited devices, so your entire household is protected. Don't let your data become a what Went Wrong? Make it a what went right and go to surfshark.com wrong or use code wrong at checkout to get four extra months of surf surfshark. Again, that's surfshark.com wrong, code wrong and there's a 30 day money back guarantee.
- [01:07]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
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- [01:33]
Chris Winterbauer
Sorry, Eli.
- [01:34]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
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- [02:28]
Ad Voice
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- [02:32]
Lizzie Bassett
Hello, and welcome back to what Went Wrong, your favorite podcast, Full Stop, that just so happens to be about movies and how it's nearly impossible to make them, let alone a good one. Let alone a good one that accurately represents an entire at least tenth of the population. I may have that number wrong. And we're going to talk a lot about numbers today because we have a special guest. I'm Lizzie Bassett, one of your hosts here, as always, with Chris Winterbauer. And Chris. And what are we talking about today and who do we have with us?
- [03:01]
Chris Winterbauer
Well, today we are talking about LGBTQ inclusion in film, specifically from the top film distributors. And we are joined by an expert. We are joined by Raina Dearwater, who's the associate director of entertainment research and analysis at glaad, the world's largest LGBTQ media advocacy organization. Raina's been with GLAAD for 10 years and works as the lead researcher and author of their annual award winning Where We Are on TV Studio Responsibility Index studies. These studies measure LGBTQ inclusivity and diversity in film and television, respectively. And she's here to talk about their recently published report, freshly published report on LGBTQ representation in film in 2025 and representation more broadly. Raina, thank you so much for being here.
- [03:47]
Raina Dearwater
It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me. I love talking about movies. We just renamed, so I realized in my bio it says Studio Responsibility Index, which this year got a brand new name where we are in film, which is what we're yapping about today.
- [04:02]
Lizzie Bassett
Yeah, this is an absolutely fascinating, you know, Chris and I got a chance to read, I believe, an early copy of the report and boy, is it eye opening. I love seeing the stories that Dada can tell. And you've done such a fantastic job here, so I can't wait to get granular and get into it.
- [04:19]
Raina Dearwater
Thank you. It means a lot, especially in, like, when someone has read all, like 50 plus pages of it. I'm like, we did it.
- [04:25]
Lizzie Bassett
It was riveting.
- [04:26]
Chris Winterbauer
It was good and well paced. Many good graphs and charts to get us started.
- [04:30]
Lizzie Bassett
A lot of good graphics, very colorful,
- [04:31]
Chris Winterbauer
like any good movie gets us through it. So, Rana, maybe pulling back a little bit just to give our audience some context. What's the scope of this report? What studios are we talking about? There's so much film and television and, you know, released every single year. Let's narrow things down, you know, briefly. So what's the scope of this report? In Our conversation today.
- [04:56]
Raina Dearwater
So this report looks at 10 big distributors in the film industry, and we're looking at scripted feature films. So it has to be over 65 minutes in length. It has to be scripted, and it has to be released either theatrically or on directly on streaming, which a few years ago we added streaming in big, big news in the reporting industry. And so it looks at all the releases from those 10 studios and some similar studies look at, like, top 100 box office hits or like just streaming, just theatrical. We do both, and we do it by studio. So the 10 studios that we cover here are alphabetically. A24, Amazon, Apple TV, Lionsgate, NBCUniversal, Netflix, Paramount Pictures, Sony, Walt Disney, and Warner brothers. So those 10, and that includes, like, their streaming divisions of their, like, indie labels. So for a distributor like NBCUniversal, it's Universal Pictures in theaters, also Focus Features in theaters, also peacock direct to streaming. So it's kind of like the big umbrella, right? With some studios like an Apple, it's like, this is just your streaming releases. Or with some studios like A24, that's just your theatrical releases. But with big ones like Paramount, NBC, Warner Brothers, Disney, like those, we sort of look at the entire umbrella of all the films and, like, sort of also getting granular again, like what it says when a studio will release more LGBTQ content on their more indie, quote, unquote, indie labels versus, like, their bigger labels, what that means. So there's a lot going on, but those are the big ten, if you will, that we look at.
- [06:42]
Lizzie Bassett
Also, I have to say one thing I kept thinking about as I was reading through the report, and maybe we can talk about this a little bit later once we've gotten through some of the basics, but what does this data tell us about the implications of some of these massive mergers and purchases that are being discussed right now? So I'll throw that out there because I definitely feel like I was reading
- [07:04]
Raina Dearwater
it going, oh, yeah, I gave a presentation on this data and I was like, we look at 10 studios, next year, it'll be nine. Yeah, it definitely does not bode well in terms of inclusion, in terms of, like, the less content that's being made, the less inclusivity there will be. Like, the percentage is going down and the number is going down. But, like, if the overall number goes down and the percentage stays the same, that's still less overall LGBTQ inclusion. Also, you know, if you look at, like, I'll say it, the Ellisons, that is not boding well for the future of inclusion. But it's a very interesting conversation that I'm sure we'll get into more on the non big studio side, there is a lot of really great content that is being made by like independent filmmakers that are either being purchased by these studios or are getting a different release. So it's super interesting to see like how the big studio system is operating contrasted with more independent studios and labels. So there's a lot going on right now in this moment.
- [08:04]
Chris Winterbauer
So really quickly, because I think this can help us kind of sandbox this conversation a little bit. When I started reading this report, the thing that jumped out at me that I had thought about before I even picked it up was when I really thought to myself. And I, by the way, went back through our whole catalog of the movies we've covered and tried to figure out how many gay characters or LGBTQ characters are in these movies. Not very many. And so when I was going through this and we can talk about how many films you've covered, I want to highlight something which is television has seen, it seems a lot of success in being inclusive and having a lot of success with those shows that are inclusive. The most obvious example that's pointed out in the report, which our audience will be well aware of, is heated rivalry, which Lizzie has recommended to our audience many a time. Stranger Things, you point out, has multiple canonically gay characters, but Robin in particular, played by Maya Hawke. You mentioned Malcolm in the Middle. I was also going to mention Hacks as another very queer friendly show, obviously. So it seems like there's a lot going on in tv, but this conversation is not going to be about tv. We're focusing on film. And so in this report, there are basically 225 films that were, you know, categorized and broken down by, I don't know if it's just you or you and your team.
- [09:18]
Raina Dearwater
There's a, there's a very small team. It's a lot of movies, a lot of movies. I did personally watch a lot of these movies, though they're movies you did not know existed and exist. It was a wild time and those
- [09:29]
Chris Winterbauer
filmmakers are grateful you watched them. Speaking from someone who's made a couple
- [09:32]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
movies who, you know, maybe not a
- [09:34]
Chris Winterbauer
ton of people have seen scene, but so 225 films. Can you just again, to like, table set what qualifies a movie from the perspective of this report and from GLAAD as being inclusive versus not inclusive.
- [09:51]
Raina Dearwater
So we're in like a tricky business, if you will, because the idea of, you know, zooming out on Identity, gender, and sexuality is all fluid, and there's no one objective truth. And so putting that information into data, which is all about objective truth, can be a little tricky. Like we say a character is identifiably lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and or queer. What that means for us and for our research team is if something is either visually confirmed or spoken aloud. I think there is a rich history and a very valid history of queer coding and film. And one of GLAAD's co founders back in the 80s, Vito Russo, like, made his whole career, like, he wrote the Celluloid Closet, made the film out of that about sort of like this queer coding in film. And that's not what this report is looking at. This report is looking at explicitly confirmed LGBTQ characters. And that can mean anything from someone saying, like, a male character is like, my boyfriend. And we're like, great, check. It can also mean someone explicitly talking about their identity. It can also mean something like two characters are holding hands. They're a couple. Even if they have two lines of dialogue holding hands in the background of a scene, that counts. So, like, we have background characters. So that number that we have of the 46 films this year that had LGBTQ characters, a lot of those are just, like, super small background characters. Some of them are leads. But, yeah, so it's based on a screening process and based on, like, what is shown or said on screen. It's not based off of vibes. And there are some characters that are very, very coded as queer in terms of, like, the way they talk and mannerisms and things like that. And that character is not necessarily counted unless they explicitly say, like, oh, my boyfriend or girlfriend sometimes will be like, I'm going to queer bowling night. I think there was a character in a film a couple years ago who said, like, I'm going to queer bowling night. And we're like, great. But it can't be based off of how they're visually presenting or speaking. It's based on what is said and what actions are seen.
- [11:57]
Lizzie Bassett
Well, there's a couple of really important qualifiers there in what you said. Just for anybody who does go out and read this report or even look at the overview of it, which is that when we're talking about these big numbers, we're talking about quantity, not necessarily quality at this level. So keep that in mind when you see these numbers and you're going, oh, look at that percentage. You have to also keep in mind that that does not include what we may get to later in terms of the sort of test or litmus test for what the actual quality of the representation is. So just putting that out there, Right?
- [12:32]
Chris Winterbauer
So, Raina, reading this report, I could see someone being tempted to say, oh, 46 out of the 225 films passed GLAAD's inclusivity test. One out of every five films. Well, only 10% of Americans identify as LGBTQ. Shouldn't we consider this a win? How would I be misinterpreting the data if I were to test, take that approach to looking at these numbers?
- [12:58]
Raina Dearwater
Thanks for bringing that up, because a lot of people do that, so it's great to actually get to talk about it. But so those percentages, which are sort of the general polls from Gallup or other places that have the LGBTQ approximation at about like, 10%, first of all, that's like a very conservative estimate, as these are only people who are a adults and baby will answer a survey about their identity right now.
- [13:26]
Lizzie Bassett
Right.
- [13:26]
Raina Dearwater
But even if we did take that about 10 number, at face value, I think it's like 11.9. Now, I should. I should fact check this. But even if we look at that number at face value, that's number of people. So if you're watching a movie and this movie has about, I don't know, 50 characters and two of those characters are queer, that is still under that bar, right? Of population. And that's a movie that we count as inclusive. So within those films, we do not currently look at number of character because that would a little bit be impossible, but we do a little bit of that on the TV side. But, like, when a film is inclusive, it's not saying every single person in that movie is queer. I wish. But mostly it's one or two characters, and so that is less than 20% of the characters in that film, more often than not. So the world we live in today has LGBTQ people everywhere, even if we're not seeing them. And only 20% of films this year even have a world that has queer people in them, even if they're in the background, even if they are a gay best friend or whatever.
- [14:32]
Chris Winterbauer
If I may, just because I think this is a really important point and I want to explain it, because there are dumb people like me out there. What your point is, in our world, even if you just take Gallup, 11% of our community is LGBTQ. In the world of film, LGBTQ people do not exist in 80% of the movies released. And so the disparity is we should be seeing, in theory, if you want it to be representative, 10% in any given movie with an understanding that some movies have very small casts or something like that. But instead it's, well, no, in the vast, vast, vast majority, the number is zero.
- [15:12]
Lizzie Bassett
And one level beyond that, the number is zero. But then also, I think the important qualifier here is that when we're talking about this larger picture number before we get more granular, even the 20% or whatever it is that does have some inclusivity is a low bar. Right, because of the way that you are qualifying the characters. You keep saying, oh, it could be two people holding hands, it could be very minor characters. I think often it is very minor characters that are qualifying in this way. So that's really important to remember that it's sort of a waterfall. As you're looking at this data, you can't sit there and look at that data and say, well, this is fantastic representation. What you have to do is sit down and read your wonderful, I believe, 70 page report, because there's a lot in there.
- [15:56]
Chris Winterbauer
So, Raina, on that point, if I can ask you a follow up question, please. I went back through our catalog of films that we've covered on this podcast and I tried to figure out which ones would pass your inclusivity test. And if we do, don't count vibes alone, that number is vanishingly small very quickly. So that could suggest two things. Number one, we have some biases on the show that should probably be explored. Also, though, I could suggest, well, perhaps we've gotten better over time as an industry. Things have improved. Maybe you can talk to us about the trends that your report is identifying. Because I might look at this report and be tempted to say, hey, look, we 20% now, I bet you that number was a lot lower in 1982. You know, what's the problem?
- [16:43]
Raina Dearwater
Yeah, a couple things. First of all, if you guys want a list of gay movies to cover, I'll send it over.
- [16:49]
Chris Winterbauer
Yes, we will. We will take it at the end of this.
- [16:51]
Raina Dearwater
Yeah, so it is interesting because in the long term there has been a lot of significant change. So this study has only been going on since 2013, but like in that time, there's been a lot of growth and those early percentages were much lower. When we first started this, I believe it was seven studios. We've moved up to 10, we've added streaming. There have a couple of things that have changed in the film climate, but overall those numbers have gone up. Even in the time I've been working at GLAAD. I interned at GLAAD 10 years ago in My final semester of college, I did an internship at glaad and my role as an intern was screening these films for this report. So it's kind of a full circle moment. But in that time, there were a lot of films that almost their, like, entire premises were based on making fun of gay people or making a lot of these jokes. And like, even just like 2016, which is like, okay, we think of that as like a pretty, for lack of a better word, woke time, if you will. But, like, there were a lot of trends in these, like, big budget bro comedies. They had a lot of anti LGBTQ sentiment. There was a movie called Get Hard that I had to watch when I was an intern that I remember the whole joke was like, you can't go to prison because you will get raped in prison by other men. And it was really awful. Like, it was. It was a lot of, like, really awful anti queer humor. And that in, like, the comedy space, like, there's a lot of, like, awful sentiment in certain sectors of the comedy space, don't get me wrong. But in terms of these comedy films now, they do have a different perspective. Not in this report, but in the previous report, there was a bro comedy that was like a had John scene. It was called Ricky Sticki. It was like we're guys were lying to our wives. And one of the guys lying to their wives, he was like, he is a guy lying to his husband. I'm not saying it's a great movie.
- [18:42]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
It was.
- [18:43]
Raina Dearwater
But it's like that evolution in the past decade has been exciting to see that, like, in this sort of genre, there's less of a punching down and more of a, like, even playing field. And even looking at, like, this is a little bit of a tangent, but looking at, like, again, that movie Get Hard, that was really bad, starred Will Ferrell. And then last year, the documentary Will and Harper came out. That was Will Ferrell and Harper Steele taking a road trip after she just disclosed that she was trans. And it was a really wholesome movie about, like, a friend learning new things about his friend, but also just like, two old friends. And it's like, I think that's a great encapsulation about the progress we've made, especially in, like, these sort of, like, bigger comedy spaces. Like, Will Ferrell might be, like, the biggest comedy star of the 21st. This is him listening and learning with a trans woman. So a lot of the findings of this report are bleak, but there are examples like that of evolutions and progress that are being made within certain genres. And that's been super exciting to see.
- [19:45]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
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- [20:11]
Chris Winterbauer
Sorry Eli.
- [20:12]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
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Chris Winterbauer
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Chris Winterbauer
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- [21:52]
Lizzie Bassett
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- [23:00]
Chris Winterbauer
So if the macro trend has been look there's been some good progress made. We can look at Will Ferrell for example and look, I've changed a lot, you know what I mean? As a cis white guy over the last 10 years I like to think especially now with the I have a trans family member who's since come out, et cetera. That's not something I knew. I knew nothing about the trans community prior to a few years ago at that's been an education for me and I'm glad to hear you embrace you know what I mean? I think we should all celebrate Will Ferrell for example, moving on from Get Hard which I never saw and obviously something like Ricky Sineki. Yeah the whole point is we can all look we're men, we can be shitty to our spouses no matter what their gender is. That's kind of the whole point. So there's been a macro trend in maybe a great positive direction of growth. But but perhaps there's been a bit of a micro trend that shows maybe some erosion or concern in this report that you can speak to.
- [23:57]
Raina Dearwater
Yeah something that's actually been constant is the lack of trans representation or when There is trans representation. Like, it's bad. Yeah, TV's done better, but there's still the same erosion for many reasons. But, like, culturally, right now, in the United States and also in the uk, there's just like this. This insane transphobic movement from the highest levels of government. So we see that reflected in our culture. But that has been a constant in this report. A lot of the time, if there is trans representation, it's either played by a cisgender actor or it falls into, like, really awful tropes of someone transitioning to hide from the law. Like last year, one of the biggest titles was Emilia Perez, which we did not have kind things to say about because it sort of led to a lot of really awful stereotypes at a time when it could not be more important to have authentic trans representation on screen, reaching people who, like, you were saying, like, maybe didn't know a trans person or didn't know anything about the community. And we have research that obviously the best way to learn about the community is to know someone firsthand. But if you don't know someone firsthand, media is the second best tool, and media includes everything. So, like, right now, people are inundated with media, often from the news that is sort of spreading a lot of untruths and biases and really awful things, specifically about the trans community. So what TV and movies and, like, social media can do is create these narratives from the source and show them to people who might not know a trans person. Which is why Will and Harper was a great documentary and we're seeing all these great things. But in terms of major studio film, there's void, there's nothing. So I think that is, like, less of a trend. And just sort of an unfortunate consistency in this report is the lack of trans representation. But it hits harder now because of what's going on, you know, at a government level. And we see a lot of great work in the indie space. There's, like, really great trans filmmakers. There are films being made also, like a lot of really wonderful international films, but. But big studio American films are giving nothing.
- [26:10]
Lizzie Bassett
There's a phrase that you use in the report that really stood out to me and I found very eye opening, especially when paired with some examples, which was casual queer inclusion, which could also be applied to, I think, casual trans inclusion. And could you maybe explain what that means, especially in terms of, like, how people are exposed to queer or trans characters?
- [26:37]
Raina Dearwater
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of historically stories where when they're about a gay character, it's Their coming out story. When it's about a trans character, it's their transition narrative. And what we talk about when it comes to, like, casual inclusion is just like, let's say you're watching a movie about a heist and, you know, Ocean's 11 and one of the 11 guys is a trans guy. That would be casual inclusion. And this isn't about this character struggling with being trans. This isn't about, like, identity crisis. This is about robbing a casino in my. My fake movie that I'm making up right now. But, like, it's like this character. It's like, oh, I don't know, they're really good with numbers, and that's their thing. And also they happen to be trans. But the point, their character arc isn't about their identity. And this is true with anyone in the community is like, there are some really wonderful films where, like, someone's identity is the plot. But, like, any genre of film can include characters. And it doesn't have to be like, I'm now realizing it's, I'm gay. Whoa. It can just be about, they're doing something and they also, like, happen to have this identity. It's sort of a balancing line of, like, their identity isn't a secret. Their identity isn't not discussed at all. It's just a facet of their lives. But it's not the only thing about their lives. Because it would be like if there's a movie where someone's like, every other second, they're like, just, I just need you to know I'm straight. And I've struggled with being straight and I'm straight. And it's like, that's not a whole movie.
- [28:03]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
Well, I do.
- [28:04]
Chris Winterbauer
I agree I have to express that pretty constantly in my life.
- [28:07]
Lizzie Bassett
But, yeah, the reason that it stood out to me was because it really got me thinking about what you're talking about, and I think how rare that type of inclusion is in particular, and also how effective that type of inclusion can be, especially for people who may not be, as you put it. This is a way to expose people who don't know LGBTQ individuals. And in the report, it mentioned the Old Guard two as well as the Old guard for having an example of this. I thought a pretty good example of it. I don't know what you feel. I actually really enjoyed those movies, particularly the first one. But my dad, I remember when the Old Guard came out, he actually made specific comments about how much he enjoyed the gay couple that's in that movie. And I think for this reason. And it just got me thinking about sort of the different types of inclusion and the different sort of qualities of inclusion too. And I'm wondering if maybe you could talk a little bit about the Vito Russo test, who you mentioned earlier in the episode.
- [29:12]
Raina Dearwater
Yeah. Just a quick note on the Old Guard is like, yeah, that's a great example of, like, we're immortals who do and. Or fight crime.
- [29:20]
Lizzie Bassett
I know. And they're so good at it.
- [29:22]
Raina Dearwater
They're so good at it. And they're all.
- [29:23]
Lizzie Bassett
And they're so hot. Yeah.
- [29:26]
Raina Dearwater
But it's. Two of them are, like, two guys who have been together for, like, centuries. It was like they met on opposite sides of the crusade. Fun. But, yeah, that's something like that where it's, like, fun for probably not them. But, like, I think that's a great example of casual inclusion because a. Like, the plot isn't about them being gay. They're just like, two of a group that does their immortal thing. But it is, like, actually pretty powerful when you think about it, because these people are, like, thousands of years old. And so it's also sort of an antidote to that thing of, like, being gay is new, which is very much not true. Look at ancient Greece. But, like, having these. These two guys be in, like, an immortal story was, like, a great way to do that. But, yeah. Let's talk about the Vito Russo test. So this was sort of invented by us at glaad. I wasn't there at this time, but one of my teammates, Megan Townsend, who helped start this report and is still working on it today, is one of the people who came up with this. That's sort of like the Bechdel test, but for LGBTQ folks. And so it's. It's sort of like what I was talking about of the baseline level of inclusion, but, like, leveled up a little. So the first point is, like, someone has to be identifiably lgbtq. And then the second point is sort of what I mentioned about the casual inclusion is like, they have to have another character trait. Like, they're. They're identifiably queer, but they have to have something else. And that can be something as simple as a job or family or something like that. And you'll be kind of surprised by, like, a little less so now, but still, especially in the. Like, if there is a rom com and the gay best friend has, like, been a trope that pervades, and it's like, I love all my gay best friends, but this is a character who, like, doesn't have any character traits besides,
- [31:11]
Lizzie Bassett
like, being gay outside of being the gay best friend.
- [31:14]
Raina Dearwater
And it's like, what do they do? And it's like, it doesn't matter. They actually just support their straight girl bestie. And then the third point is they have to be tied to a plot in a way that if they were removed, the plot would have a significant difference. So basically, just they have to be important. Like, going back to a hypothetical gay best friend, if that character was removed, would the movie be any different? And sometimes the answer is, yes, the movie would be different because the gay guy's the one who said, girl, go get his number, or whatever. But sometimes it's like, no, the movie wouldn't change without it. And then there's a fourth point that was added more recently that was like, this film cannot fall into, like, any known offensive tropes and stereotypes that often involve, like, they're bisexual and they only exist to manipulate people, or they are, like, a trans character who's, like, deceiving people, but, like, sort of these, like, known tropes that can be super harmful. So that's the Vito Russo test, and it sort of exists as an overall, like, quality filter to view all of this stuff. So it's like, how many films are inclusive, but then how many films pass the Vitorussa test?
- [32:18]
Chris Winterbauer
So let's talk about that. 20% this year, roughly, of films were inclusive by this GLAAD report's standards. What percentage of those films passed the Vito Russo test?
- [32:29]
Raina Dearwater
So it's actually, like, has been a pretty consistently high percentage over the last few years, which is great. 78% of those films. So that was 36, which is 16% of the overall total films. So most of them did, which is great. That's also a nice improvement. We've seen over the last few years that those numbers have been higher, which has been lovely to see.
- [32:51]
Chris Winterbauer
So let me ask you, off the top of your head. I don't think this is in the report, but I'm a screenwriter. I know a lot of screenwriters. A lot of them are straight CIS white guys like me. As we write movies, which point of those four points tends to be failed, anecdotally speaking, most often, would you say?
- [33:10]
Raina Dearwater
I think it's mostly the. Is significant to the plot. 1. I think sometimes they even, like, have a scene at a gay bar, and it's like, okay, great. But that means that all the LGBTQ characters are just sort of like background noise or like, ooh, look at how exciting this character is. They're going to a gay bar. But if that scene was at any other bar, the plot would stay exactly the same. And a point we make is that, like, this report is very much looking at big picture, big distributors. Once a film has reached its final stage, it's in the world, et cetera. But I think there's a lot of folks who might not include a character because they're, like, afraid of getting it wrong. So we want to make sure that they're our resources. And, like, we do a lot of work with filmmakers and with studios about reviewing content, reviewing scripts, and, like, helping folks out on the ground level. So we don't just want to be like, hey, this end product didn't pass or it wasn't great. We want to ideally be in earlier with folks if they have a question about, you know, how to convey a community that they're not a part of.
- [34:09]
Chris Winterbauer
And so the goal is to be not punitive, but informative with these reports.
- [34:14]
Raina Dearwater
Exactly.
- [34:15]
Chris Winterbauer
Which is great. And I saw that you also changed away from a grading system with the studios towards just a more reporting system. We just talked about Geena Davis, and she's very focused on women in film, et cetera, with her Media Institute. If I could just take a step back really quickly, because I don't know if we made this point explicitly. I'm just an average news consumer. I feel like I see stories every day about trans issues. I'm going to use that umbrella term very broadly. Everything, including the Odyssey somehow, Right. Recently, surely it's woke Hollywood. There must be so many movies with trans characters in them. Right. Last year. So how many movies had a trans character in them last year, per your report?
- [34:59]
Raina Dearwater
Oh, that would be none.
- [35:02]
Chris Winterbauer
I just want to make sure we hit because I was surprised. I assumed there would be some, and I was just shocked to see that the answer was zero. And, of course, I couldn't think of a single one myself. I want to emphasize one other thing that is sometimes overlooked, and I'm glad you guys shouted out in your report, because one out of every four Americans, according to the cdc, lives with a disability. That's American adults. Something. Again, a couple family members of mine that I've had some experience with. Now, do you see a very high percentage of characters with disabilities in movies in your reporting?
- [35:38]
Raina Dearwater
No, we do not.
- [35:39]
Ad Voice
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- [35:39]
Raina Dearwater
That percentage is super low. And it also dropped again this year, but it was.
- [35:44]
Chris Winterbauer
I believe it was like 4% LGBTQ characters. Yeah.
- [35:49]
Raina Dearwater
Yeah. So only 4% of people had a disability. That is a decrease from the previous year. And Again, like, a lot of these numbers are, like, decreases from numbers that weren't that high to begin with. So it's very telling. And there's also been a huge drop in LGBTQ folks of color. And it's. It's sort of one of those things where it's, like, when it's overall marginalized people, if you look at, like, the more marginalized people within those communities, that is where the more significant decreases are.
- [36:17]
Lizzie Bassett
You know, we're talking across this whole episode, you've done this amazing report about inclusion and about representation. What is the importance of people, and not just LGBTQ people, but everyone seeing a representation of LGBTQI plus individuals on screen and particularly quality representations of them.
- [36:42]
Raina Dearwater
I think there's, like, two sides of the coin. Like you mentioned, it's very important for LGBTQ folks to see themselves, especially young people, and especially with, quote, unquote, like, trans issues taking over the airwaves and things like that. Just to be like, oh, there's a person living their lives that could be me. Especially if they're in a community where they're isolated or where they're getting fed a lot of either misinformation or, like, there's no future for you type rhetoric. To see that and to see characters thriving and living their best lives and getting to be in the kinds of stories that people want to see is very exciting. And then there's the other end that's, like, people who aren't in the community. And I think there's a couple things here. One, it is just a way to get to know people who are different than yourself. And as we become, like, more siloed as a society and like, like, we're being fed stories of people who are just like us through a lot of, like, algorithmic programming. I think it's so important to be able to go sit down at a movie theater with strangers and to see a story that is different from your own life and have that open your eyes a little. And in terms of representation, like, that opening your eyes can lead to changing your mind just a little bit. There's a quote that I'm gonna kind of butcher that was from Norman Lear about media that, like, change lives. One TV show, one movie isn't gonna, like, change anyone's lives, but if there', like, a pond of progress and, like, a little pebble is being thrown in it, with each of these stories, the water level will rise. So it might just be someone who's a grandparent, and if their grandkid comes out to them, they will have like a material to reference because they've seen it on tv, they've seen it in the movies, and that will lead to more connection. Ultimately, what we want from this art is to connect to people who aren't like yourselves and to have more empathy and more understanding. Politics and art are like always in conversation with each other right now and in this moment. What we need is for art to be a louder voice than a lot of what's happening in the political realm. And also, like, overall, people are tired of seeing the same story over and over again. A Trans Ocean's eleven Movie this is now my new pitch. I've come up with it on this podcast.
- [38:54]
Chris Winterbauer
14 I mean, now's the time. Make your plea.
- [38:57]
Raina Dearwater
Exactly. Having variety and having being exposed to different folks is like so important when it comes to consuming this kind of stuff.
- [39:05]
Chris Winterbauer
I think that's a great opportunity to pivot to some of the business of this.
- [39:13]
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- [41:03]
Chris Winterbauer
Hollywood well I would say for 100 years has always perceived A sort of Damocles above its head. And it's taken many forms, but it does. It has felt like things have been particularly dicey since COVID The writers strike, the actors strike, AI, et cetera. There's a great point, and it's just one sentence early in this presentation that I really appreciated because it's something I wrote about recently. And I. I have a big enough ego to want to say I thought of this too. So let me play the devil's advocate position. As you mentioned, we have a fractured media landscape. It seems like if you seek it out, you can find a story that includes gay characters or queer characters. As you mentioned, there's a lot of LGBTQ inclusive tv. We're all just looking for something that speaks to us. Why should I be concerned about this? And also, hasn't this been solved by the fact that we are no longer a monoculture? Why does this problem persist if we're no longer a monoculture?
- [42:03]
Raina Dearwater
A big point we make in this is like, if you want young people to go and watch your movies, you need to speak to them. Like, girls are just gonna watch YouTube all day or whatever. But I think there is a very important point to make that's like, if you look at Gen Z right now for the last few years, again with this, like, population report, I think 23% of Gen Z adults self report as LGBTQ, which is more than any other generation, all the other generations combined. And then you're seeing all these headlines that's like, Gen Z's saving the movies. Gen Z loves to go to movie theaters. You think they're on your phones. No, Gen Z is going to the movies. Looking at that, it's like, well, if you want film to be a resonant voice and culture, talk to these young people, who, again, are queerer than before. So that's a big point we make in this. People are going to get their representation elsewhere. And it's not a situation of, like, if they can get it elsewhere, why do it? It's like, if they can get it elsewhere, your industry is going to become a lot less relevant, which we're kind of seeing already. And that's for a variety of reasons, but one of them, I think, is due to this lack of inclusion and this lack of diverse stories, and not even just like, diverse in its buzzwordy way about identity, but diverse in a way that's like, different types of stories and making sure they are being told when it comes to both who we're seeing on screen and also, like, what we're seeing on screen.
- [43:26]
Chris Winterbauer
One line I wanted to read out. I think this is from your president and CEO, Sarah Kate Ellis. Efforts to make a character more universal and for everyone do the exact opposite, meaning they exclude. These characters become so diluted and watered down that no character or story becomes specific or resonant enough with audiences to break through. And I think that's an important point, which is. I think it can from a studio perspective. Right? They. They think, well, we need to make something that's so universal that it will appeal to all four quadrants of the audience. And the classic expression is you make a movie for everyone. You make a movie for no one. And I think that's an important point because, again, to your point, that's not good advice just for representation of specific, underrepresented characters on screen. That's just good advice for storytelling in general, which is. It should be specific. Specificity is what makes something feel universal, not. Not milk toast qualities at the end of the day. So I just wanted to highlight. I thought that was a great line
- [44:25]
Raina Dearwater
from the report I mentioned before we started recording that I just listened to your guys's episode on My Big Fat Greek Wedding, and like, that I was thinking about this while I was listening to that, because I'm like, that's the exact same thing of, like, no one wanted to make that movie because it was too specific. And then it was a huge hit because of that specificity of, like, if there's a story that hasn't been told before, there's actually a huge group of people who are. Are so eager to buy it. And also people who aren't in that community who are like, whoa, I've never seen this before. This is just like my family, or this is just like my life or whatever. So it's just. It's such an untapped market that is rich, and it's for the taking.
- [45:03]
Chris Winterbauer
Yeah. Maybe we can pivot to conclude here, Raina, and you can add anything at the end to consolidation, because that's what this industry is dealing with right now. Obviously, Disney bought 20th Century Fox a few years ago. And now, unless these 12 attorneys general are able to delay long enough, I think this merger will go through eventually. Now, how expensive it becomes for the Ellisons will be fun to watch.
- [45:28]
Lizzie Bassett
I'm sorry, can you clarify which merger you're talking about there?
- [45:30]
Chris Winterbauer
Right. So Paramount is attempting to. Hungry hungry snake, swallow the very much larger Warner Brothers discovery. Now, I want to just emphasize there are a number of studios who had more success within your report. Than others. Warner Brothers Discovery was actually one of the more inclusive this past year in your report, and I want to put a pin on this. But also horror was an area where LGBTQ representation remains relatively strong. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Disney and family films very noticeably not the case. Paramount, though, has seemed to have a bit of a dearth of representative material. And maybe you could speak a little bit about. If I'm a consumer, why should I be worried? Let's say I'm a hetero consumer. Why should I be worried about Paramount merging with Warner Bros. Discovery? Why should this concern me?
- [46:24]
Raina Dearwater
I think there's just a concern of, like, there will be less films and they will be more generic. How many Yellowstone spinoffs can one studio make?
- [46:35]
Lizzie Bassett
So many ratings, so many.
- [46:37]
Raina Dearwater
Which is also Paramount. But. But I think it's. Yeah, I think it should be concerning because I think looking at Warner Brothers last year, their films that were, like, resonant with audiences the most were ones that were deemed, like, risky. Right. Sinners was probably the biggest movie of last year and that, you know, and that was deemed a risk. And then it was like, box office hit and Oscars hit, like, which is so rare. And I think that kind of film will not be. I mean, I can't. I can't speak the future. I hope I'm wrong, but, like, signs are pointing that that type of film will not be made anymore under the Paramount banner. Because if you look at what Paramount put out last year, there isn't that kind of, you know, more interesting and specific films? Like, again, probably Warner Brothers. Too big.
- [47:27]
Chris Winterbauer
Oh, no, I'll say it. So Paramount has made some very good movies, don't get me wrong. And there are some wonderfully talented people there, but I. Skydance has made a particular brand of extremely generic. And I don't care that it's. I'm not talking about that. It's just, you know, white people or whatever. There might. The cast may even be diverse from a just like token diversity perspective. The point is, the movies are really bland. Like, they're just. They.
- [47:51]
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- [47:52]
Chris Winterbauer
service and you say that this is a movie.
- [47:54]
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- [47:55]
Chris Winterbauer
I'm sure when you were doing the screenings, you know what I mean, you kind of felt the same way. And then you look at some of the Warner Brothers stuff. Sinner's Weapons, One battle after another.
- [48:03]
Raina Dearwater
Whoa.
- [48:03]
Chris Winterbauer
These are unique, interesting, big swing kind of movies.
- [48:08]
Raina Dearwater
Yeah, exactly. And there's such a cognitive dissonance. But, yeah, probably the only hit from Warner that would maybe continue under Paramount is like Superman, but there's such a disconnect there. And yeah, a movie like Weapons that outperformed its budget by like 10 zillion percent. Listen. From a GLAAD perspective. Great that they were gay characters. Not so great. They were brutally killed. Like, what can you do?
- [48:33]
Chris Winterbauer
Interestingly, not a gay character in the script. Oh. If you read the original script, Marcus, the principal, played by Benedict Wong, is straight. His wife's name was Ginny. And so I don't know at what point that changed. But anyway, it's just interesting. You mentioned the screenwriter versus execution. Clearly, you know, a change happened at
- [48:50]
Raina Dearwater
that point, and that's also. To go on a little bit of a tangent, that's also a really interesting thing to look at with a film like Weapons where, like, a lot of people died. And it just happened to be that the gay characters were killed a little more brutally than the other characters. And I think that was an innocent mistake of just like, oh, let's make this character gay. Or whenever that happened in the process, I can't say. But it's just so funny that it's like, if there was just one queer person who's like, hey, maybe let's just not have this be the most brutal murder, I think that would have helped a lot. But again, like, we're not scolding, we want to educate, but even broader. A film like Weapons. And I think horror has been having a huge moment at the box office. That is, again, an original idea that. That sounds pretty silly on paper, but, like, it was a huge success and it had a diverse cast in terms of different characters. We see, like, again, diversity in its many colors, if you will. And then there's pivoting into, like. Horror in general was much more inclusive last year than a lot of other genres. It is just so interesting that that is right now one of the few genres of film where there's actually a lot of original content being made. And when more. More original content is being made, it's A, more inclusive and B, more successful.
- [50:07]
Lizzie Bassett
Yeah, I mean, look at something like Companion, which was also Warner Brothers, which was I loved. But that is another example of something that I don't think anybody expected to get the kind of traction and word of mouth that it did. And it obviously does feature gay characters very prominently in the plot and everything else. And it's another horror movie movie. And it was interesting to see that on there and interesting to see it on Warner Brothers slate because, again, I don't know if I can Imagine Paramount producing that movie, especially given the AI of it all.
- [50:41]
Raina Dearwater
It's super interesting. Also, Companion was. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was made for so little money and then it made way more. But yeah, films like that, that also resonate because they're timely like that. Companion had gay characters, but it was also like a little. It was like kind of like an anti incel movie, if you will, and had a lot to say about artificial intelligence and unethical artificial intelligence. And it was also just fun. And so I think it is so frustrating that a film like that, that is A, entertaining and B, has something to say underneath the entertainment just might
- [51:17]
Lizzie Bassett
not go through and financially viable.
- [51:20]
Raina Dearwater
It's so interesting because a lot of times what they're telling folks like us is like, oh, we don't know, because it won' be financially successful. And you see a movie like Companion or Weapons that is a huge financial success and it's inclusive. And then like that, they're like, oh, we're not talking about those ones. And it's like you're the ones who are potentially taking a huge risk by not telling these stories, I think, to
- [51:41]
Chris Winterbauer
bring it all home, because I want to end on an optimistic note. What I loved about the tone of your report and having you on the show is that this is not to scold people or yell at them or try to goad them into. Into changing from that sort of perspective. The point is, hey, let's look at where we're at, honestly. Let's look at what movies are working and let's see what we can learn from them. Like what? What? We all want better movies, and we all want a wide variety of movies to. To go watch and see. Tell folks in the industry who are listening to this how they can connect with you guys if they're interested in trying to make some more money. Let's just put it that way.
- [52:23]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
If they're interested.
- [52:24]
Chris Winterbauer
Because as you mentioned in your post, Gen Z is driving a little bit of a box office revival. It looks like we're gonna hit $10 billion at the box office for the first time in a few years. And Gen Z is showing up for movies. Good for Gen Z. They're doing the work. They're putting away their phones. Us millennials are failing. And I don't know how old you are, Raina, but Lizzie and I are millennials.
- [52:43]
Raina Dearwater
I'm a millennial too.
- [52:44]
Chris Winterbauer
Okay? So. But Gen Z, thank you for showing up to the movie.
- [52:49]
Sponsor Voice / Ad Reader
For anybody out there who works at a studio who produces Movies, makes movies, writes movies and is interested in making
- [52:55]
Chris Winterbauer
more money or being a little more inclusive. You can go to glaad.org contact that's G L-A-A-D.org contact to get in touch with Raina's team. We will put that link in the show notes as well for you guys and Raina, is there anywhere else? Shout out anywhere else, plug anything else, Any other ways that folks should be reaching out, getting in contact with the fine folks at GLAAD?
- [53:18]
Raina Dearwater
So GLAAD's on almost all socials at GLAAD. GLAAD. You can connect with us there and yeah, we're open to talking with folks. Like, this report is just a little bit of our entertainment work. We use it sort of as a guiding post for the rest of our work. So we have this, we have a report about tv. We see where the issues are and where we need to do more work. And that informs our year round work, which is consulting in the industry. We have a lot of connections at these studios already. They come to us with projects or an individual filmmaker comes to us and we put eyes on it. And we also train writers rooms, we train folks in the industry, we go to festivals, we do the whole entertainment festival tour. There's a lot of ways to work with glaad and we want to be a resource most of all. Ideally, what we want to do is have these reports be a little less depressing and a little more like, look at what we can do. And and another thing, just to again end it on a more positive note is that what we're seeing in this report is 2025 Films from major studios. Like outside of that limited bucket, there is a lot of really wonderful stuff happening in LGBTQ film. If you look at the big festivals this year, the biggest purchases out of Cannes, for example, were all queer movies like Club Kid, Club Kid, La Bola Negra, which Netflix bought. And like, I'm almost excited for next year's report because I'm like, I know there's gonna be some good titles that were bought this year on the fe. So like there's a lot of wonderful stuff coming out. I know that you guys are talking about Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, which is another big festival title that's not from like a big studio but from an up and comer. And that's like a trans filmmaker in a queer film. There's a lot of great stuff happening and you can find it. And if the studios don't make it, they will get left behind. So that's the uplifting and ominous ending from me.
- [55:10]
Chris Winterbauer
All right, you heard it here first. Thank you so much for being here. Raina. Is there anything else you'd like to plug before we'll let you go?
- [55:15]
Raina Dearwater
Just follow at Glad Glad on all socials and we highlight a lot of work from LGBTQ filmmakers and we just did a series that is with bigger known filmmakers and the people they are most excited to see. So that includes people like Lily Wachowski, Cheryl Dunye, people who are bigger names and have a lot of work under their belt and they talk about three filmmakers that they're excited to see more. So there's a lot of stuff coming from GLAAD channels about up and coming people who are doing this work every day and we want to make sure to highlight them.
- [55:49]
Lizzie Bassett
Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate you taking the time today. This was a fascinating interview, a fascinating report.
- [55:54]
Raina Dearwater
Thank you so much for having me.
- [55:56]
Chris Winterbauer
Of course.
- [55:56]
Raina Dearwater
Was truly a joy to talk about this.
- [55:58]
Chris Winterbauer
Thank you so much. Raina.
- [56:07]
Raina Dearwater
What Went Wrong is a sad Boom podcast presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer, Post production and music by David Bowman.
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Lizzie Bassett
And Live Nation. Bundo Gone Note Pierras Gal G
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Raina Dearwater
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