Am I Hypervigilant? Signs Of Hypervigilance & How To Get Better

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Am I Hypervigilant? Signs of Hypervigilance & How to Get Better
Podcast: What Your Therapist Thinks
Hosts: Kristie Plantinga & Felicia Keller Boyle
Guest: Haley Thomas, Licensed Psychotherapist
Date: September 10, 2025

This episode dives deep into the concept of hypervigilance—what it feels like, why it develops, its effects on daily life and relationships, and how to start healing. Guest Haley Thomas joins hosts Kristie and Felicia for an unfiltered conversation about surviving trauma, the difference between vigilance and hypervigilance, and actionable advice for listeners seeking to better understand and manage these feelings.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Hypervigilance

• Biology & Survival Roots:
  “Honestly, that’s what our brains are wired to do… As much healing as we do, that’s part of our species makeup.” – Felicia (00:00, 59:08)
• Difference from Vigilance:
  “What would separate hypervigilance from just like, vigilance, is that it doesn’t have an off switch. Right?” – Felicia (05:39)
  “It’s like being stuck on.” – Felicia (05:33)

Quick Definition

• Felicia (08:07): “It’s a two-parter. We’ve got this near constant scanning and then we’ve got sort of like false positives. Right. That combination of, like, your testing material has been damaged… it’s not accurate anymore, but you’re trying to use it constantly.”

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2. Personal & Clinical Connections

• Haley’s Story:
  Haley shares personal experience with PTSD and C-PTSD and how hypervigilance colored her life (03:24).
  Quote:
  “When I think about hypervigilance, I always like to go back to… if you’re being chased by a bear… But with hypervigilance, when it’s constant, that’s a problem… now that hypervigilance isn’t helping me. It’s actually creating a brand new problem.” – Haley (03:24)

• Felicia on Fear of Letting Go:
  “A big thing that people fear…is, okay, well, if I’m not this way, then how will I keep myself safe?” – Felicia (05:39)

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3. Hypervigilance in Everyday Life

• Social Hypervigilance:
  Kristie relates to body language scanning and people-pleasing in social settings, constantly reading for threat or displeasure (07:00).
  “Always this fear of, like, is someone upset with me? And did I cause this?” – Kristie (07:00)

• Fixation on Planning & Control:
  “Hypervigilance can, can feel like obsessive thinking. It can manifest as an attempt to control every little thing… If I’m hypervigilant… then I’m going to really try to control how that interaction goes.” – Felicia (11:18)

• Lack of Curiosity:
  “Hypervigilance can also show up as a lack of curiosity. Because when we’re curious, we’re really open… But when we’re not curious, we’re making negative assumptions all the time.” – Haley (13:07)

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4. Why It Happens and the Role of Validation

• Validating the Source:
  “It’s so unfair that they’ve had experiences that have led them to have to ask this question.” – Haley (18:05)
• Healing Precursor:
  “It’s really hard to let go of hypervigilance if you…haven’t been witnessed in the fact that what happened was actually really harmful.” – Felicia (05:39)

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5. Internet Questions: When and How Can I Let Go of Hypervigilance?

[Reddit Q1]: “How do you protect yourself without being hypervigilant?... Where is the line between being normally aware and being naive?”

• Safety Before Letting Go:
  “I think it’s when you’re safe. You can’t give it up when you’re not safe. And it can even happen in very subtle ways—emotional, psychological unsafety.” – Felicia (19:28)
• Dosing Safe Experiences:
  “If this person were talking to me in therapy, I would be talking with them about, like, dosing safe experiences.” – Haley (18:05)
• Somatic Approach:
  “Depending on the severity, we’ve got to be very gentle with folks… Sometimes for people who have been, like, incredibly traumatized, what is safe is very hard to find.” – Felicia (19:28)
• Honoring Hypervigilance Itself:
  “Make a list of, like, the things your hypervigilance is really skilled at, the things that do really, really well…” – Haley (22:03)
• Updating the Job:
  “My clients are used to me talking about it as updating the job description of their parts… It needs training.” – Haley (24:32)

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6. Practical Healing Steps

• Dosing Safety Examples:
  Haley describes a small-steps approach:
  “Instead of telling this person, like, why don’t you go for a walk… I asked them, would they be interested in maybe opening up their window and listening to what they could hear…which then turned into, maybe I want to see some of those birds…” (26:00)

• Therapeutic Co-Regulation:
  “Part of what’s so effective when it comes to therapy outcomes is the relationship between the therapist and the client.” – Felicia (33:09)
  “Some of what you are paying for when you see a therapist is to actually borrow from your therapist’s nervous system.” – Haley (31:46)

• On Fit:
  “In therapy, the vibes between you and your therapist do, in fact, need to be immaculate…How you feel toward your therapist is the number one predictor of having successful positive outcomes.” – Haley (34:31)

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7. Black and White Thinking & Mistake Anxiety

• No Perfect Line Exists:
  “What if there’s not a line? What if it’s maybe okay to consider the line might not exist? We want there to be a line because if there’s a line, then we can figure out how to be safe.” – Haley (39:51)
• Permission to Make Mistakes:
  “What has not been checked off is…permission to make mistakes. Permission to treat yourself kindly and gently when you make a mistake…” – Haley (41:05)
• Pain Isn’t Proof of Failure:
  “You’re not bad or wrong when it occurs, which I think is the thing that we’re fearing on the bottom of that, is…if I were just the correct type of human, I wouldn’t experience pain.” – Felicia (43:57)

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8. Hypervigilance in Relationships

[Reddit Q2]: “Dealing with hypervigilance in a relationship with a safe partner…”

• Celebrate Relationship Steps:
  “The fact that they’re even in a relationship after experiencing so much harm…is major. That’s really worth celebrating.” – Haley (48:25)
• Communication and Asking for Reassurance:
  “One of the best ways for me to get out of hypervigilance is to just ask questions. Notice when I am inferring something about another person and just ask.” – Felicia (50:50)
• Tender Spots:
  “We all have wounds…when you’re in a healthy relationship, part of the role you’re taking on is caring about those tender parts in each other.” – Felicia (50:50)
• Healing Takes Time:
  “Healing takes time. And it is okay to be frustrated and pissed off by how long it can take. That said, it’s also important to acknowledge just how much has changed.” – Haley (55:14)
• Openness & Curiosity:
  “Being vulnerable and being like, are you mad at me? Opens up this, like, why are you doing this? And that’s so scary. It takes so much bravery.” – Kristie (57:16)

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9. Reflection and Practical Advice

• Notice Progress:
  “What are the things that you’re doing now that you didn’t think would be possible six months ago or two years ago?” – Haley (62:03)
• Drives, Danger, & Evolution:
  “We’re biologically wired to make what’s not working, what feels uncomfortable… more important in terms of how we spend our attention… That’s our survival strategy.” – Felicia (59:08)
• Curiosity and Hope:
  “Letting yourself…plant some of those seeds…catching some things that are going well that you haven’t given yourself credit for, and then…build some capacity for hope.” – Haley (64:22)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Survival Wiring:
  “If we’re right, like 1% of the time, and that 1% of the time we stay alive because we were right, that’s worth it evolutionarily.” – Felicia (59:45)

• On Feeling Seen:
  “I explain to my clients that…some of what you are paying for when you see a therapist is to borrow from your therapist’s nervous system.” – Haley (31:46)

• Co-regulation in Therapy:
  “It is the relationship that is going to be that top predictor…someone who can model going through a conflict with you…that can be so helpful for people experiencing hypervigilance.” – Haley (34:31)

• Affirmation:
  “You are doing great, sweetie… Part of you is curious. And if you’re wanting to know…what does a therapist think about all of this? I think you’re not giving yourself enough credit for how far you’ve already come… You get to be pissed off.” – Haley (65:11)

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Notable Timestamps

• Defining hypervigilance and differentiation from vigilance: 05:33 - 08:07
• Personal/clinical stories on trauma and hypervigilance: 03:24, 05:33, 11:18
• Reddit question 1 – “How do I know when it’s safe to let go?”: 17:05 – 23:38
• Practical healing strategies and dosing safety examples: 24:32 – 29:50
• Therapeutic co-regulation and the importance of therapist fit: 29:50 – 34:31
• On black and white thinking/mistakes and emotional discomfort: 39:51 – 43:57
• Reddit question 2 – Relationships and reassurance: 46:47 – 56:13
• Reflecting on progress and future-casting hope: 62:03 – 64:45
• Parting therapist advice and encouragement: 65:11 – 67:53

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Summary Takeaways

• Hypervigilance is a survival mechanism that becomes maladaptive when “stuck on.”
• It’s common and valid, especially after repeated trauma. Healing is a slow, nonlinear process.
• Building safety occurs gradually—through dosing, gentle exposure, self-inquiry, and supportive relationships.
• Therapy is powerful for its regulatory, co-experienced nature, not just the interventions discussed.
• Fit and feeling seen by your therapist are far more important than technique or modality.
• Black and white thinking traps us. Building tolerance for mistakes and emotional discomfort is key.
• Progress might be slow and sometimes invisible—it’s important to reflect and recognize change.
• You are not alone, and you deserve both patience and credit for every step you’re taking.
• “You are doing great, sweetie.”

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For more from Haley, visit chicorycounseling.com or follow @ChicoryCounseling on Instagram.

Transcript

[A]

Honestly, that's what our brains are wired to do. I think it's important for us to understand that as much healing as we do, that's part of our species makeup.

[B]

How does black and white thinking play into this?

[C]

I have, like, the biggest smile on my face because I have so much fun talking with clients about this.

[B]

This is literally just like free therapy for me.

[C]

By the way, if this person were talking to me in therapy, I would be talking with them about, like.

[B]

Welcome to the what your therapist thinks podcast. I'm Christy Plantinga, one of your hosts. I am a therapy connoisseur and mental health writer. And with me I have Felicia Keller Boyle.

[A]

Hello, everyone. I'm Felicia. I'm a licensed psychotherapist based in California and really excited to dive into these mental health topics with you.

[B]

Finally, we have our esteemed celebrity guest, Haley Thomas.

[C]

Drumroll. Yes, I am Haley Thomas. I am a licensed psychotherapist. I specialize in anxiety, specifically for millennials, because, you know, don't know her. All the reasons. Living through unprecedented times is kind of our thing. And I am based in Colorado, but I am licensed to practice in both Colorado and Oregon.

[A]

What does that mean, Hayley, for people who don't know, for people who hear, okay, you're based in Colorado, but you're licensed in these two states. What does that mean for therapy seekers?

[C]

I run a 100% virtual practice, so all sessions take place on a HIPAA compliant video conferencing platform. And because of state licensing laws, you, as the client, have to be based in either Colorado or Oregon to receive therapy services from me.

[A]

That's great. That really creates a lot more opportunities for people. That's something I love about virtual therapy. In places where maybe there aren't as many therapists or there aren't as many therapists who align with your values, you have the ability to see a therapist online. You have a lot more options, and you can find someone who really fits what you're looking for totally.

[C]

And even before we started recording, we were talking about, like, more rural areas. And that's actually one of the things, things that happened five years ago when I went fully online was I started hearing from people in, like, rural eastern Oregon who were going, hey, I really want to see a therapist, but I don't want to run into you at church or at my kids school. I want to have more privacy. So that is one of those other things that I don't see talked about as much even in 2025. Some of those perks include increased privacy and less overlap between your personal life and your therapist.

[A]

That is a great point. What are we getting into today? Why'd we bring Haley here?

[B]

Today? We're talking about hypervigilance, which obviously has lots of connections with anxiety and trauma. So before we get into some more clarifying questions, just on what hyper vigilance really is, what it looks like, feel, feels like, stuff like that, maybe we can quick go around and just briefly explain, you know, personal connection to the topic, clinical connection from our. Our therapists here, of course, to hypervigilance.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I mean, personal and professional connection, for sure. I am not shy about sharing that I am someone who, at various points through throughout my life, have been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder and complex PTSD as well. So when I think about hypervigilance, I always like to go back to kind of the most succinct definition I can think of, which is, you know, if you're being chased by a bear, you want to be able to hightail it on out of there. You want to be able to get to safety. You want to be able to get help. And when you get to safety, one of the ways that you get to process that is by sharing with people, right? Oh, my gosh, this thing happened. People come over, they comfort you, they console you. They go, oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you're okay now. And maybe, like, you have a bad dream or two, like, over the next week, but you're not afraid to go back outside the next day. You are living your life, and as time goes on, it just becomes a story that you tell sometimes. But with hypervigilance, when it's constant, that's a problem, right? If I have an animal encounter, which, living in Colorado, animal encounters are not hard to come by. But if I have a scary animal encounter and now I don't want to leave my house, now I don't want to talk to people, because what if they judge me? What if I hear a sound and I think that that scary animal is in my house? Well, now that hyper vigilance isn't helping me. It's actually creating a brand new problem that is gonna threaten to cut me off from community, from connection, and also from my own sense of self. Like, I really value being someone who trusts my own nervous system to help me regulate even when I do encounter something scary. That's how I would explain it. I'm curious to hear how Felicia talks about this too. Yeah. Ooh.

[A]

Okay. Let's see. I mean, hyper vigilance is like, this sense of being, like, stuck on.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But what would separates hyper vigilance from just like, vigilance is that it doesn't have an off switch. Right? So I definitely think there were times in my life where that was more the case. It's just constantly scanning for danger, and it's just not useful at a certain point, like you were saying, Haley, like, at a certain point, it is getting in the way of us living our lives. But a big thing that people fear, that I certainly have feared, is, okay, well, if I'm not this way, then how will I keep myself safe? And I know, like, I'm not alone in that. Like, some of the questions we're gonna be bringing up later on in the show are basically exactly that. Like, how can I tell the difference between real threat and perceived threat? How can I tell the difference? It's like, when you're so disoriented or when you've been threatened repeatedly, when bad things have happened repeatedly, it's really hard to not live a life where you're just expecting that to happen again. So getting out of that cycle can be so hard for folks. So I think part of what's important about this is maybe validating the harm that was caused. I think it's really hard to let go of hypervigilance if you're still. If you still haven't been witnessed in the fact that what happened was actually really harmful. I think that's like a precursor to healing from that.

[B]

That's so interesting. I think getting into just acknowledging the root cause, because I think a lot of times when people are experiencing a sympt, they just kind of want it cleared up, you know, And a lot of times, of course, like, you want to know why is this happening? And we'll get into some potential causes here in a sec. For me, you know, more is in the, like, people pleasing, empath world, really scanning body language in people's faces. And, you know, in the past, overanalyzing communication. Always this fear of, like, is someone upset with me? And did I cause this? That. So that's how mind war shows up. I think I'm very much less, you know, of, like, the sounds. And, you know, that, oh, my God, that sounds so awful. And if anyone is listening experiences that. My heart really goes out to you because that just sounds so difficult. So I think mine would show up more socially. But, yeah, I'm excited to just hear from two therapy experts if you could provide a succinct definition of hypervigilance. If someone could Just kind of hear that and be like, yep, that, that sounds like me. Or maybe that doesn't sound like me.

[A]

So it's a two parter. We've got this near constant scanning and then we've got sort of like false positives. Right. That combination of, like, your testing material has been damaged. It sat in the sun too long. Like, it's not accurate anymore, but you're trying to use it constantly.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What does it feel like? What are the signs of hypervigilance that someone can maybe recognize in themselves?

[C]

Christie, I want to use the example that you gave from your own life, because this is the one that I see so often with my own clients is a lot of social anxiety. So think about meeting a new friend.

[A]

All right?

[C]

Everyone's like, favorite thing to do, especially in their 30s and 40s, making new friends gets a little more nuanced. So it's super normal. Right. Before meeting a new person, let's say you've maybe connected with someone. You've gotten to the point where you've invited them out for a coffee to connect more. It's super normal to be like, oh my gosh, I want to make sure I get there on time. I want to make sure that, like, I don't know, that they think I'm cool. Like, want them to like me. With hypervigilance, though, it might be a little more thoughts around, well, why did this person say yes? If they're saying yes, is it because they want something from me, or is it because they actually want to get to know me? Or are they going to try to ask me things that I'm not ready to talk about so that they can use it against me later? And maybe this actually isn't the best coffee shop to meet up at because the parking situation is really, really bad. And maybe we should actually just cancel or maybe we should just meet up online because. Right, you get the picture. And you can even hear I'm talking faster and my voice is changing as I'm giving those examples. So it's less about, oh, yeah, I'm a little nervous to like, you know, have some one on one time with this newer person and thinking about every single way that things could go wrong and all of the different ways that you could be under threat to. All of a sudden it goes from I'm connecting with a new friend to I am potentially meeting with someone who's going to become my enemy. It's like you don't know this person yet. And so the brain is scanning for threats and trying to keep you safe. But in a context that's maybe not the most appropriate.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's my understanding of it too. Is just like it all kind of comes down to safety. And this is a way that your mind and body have learned to protect themselves from maybe some of the worst threats that you were faced at the time. But that tool doesn't work or it's broken, or it's been left out of the sun too long. Like Felicia was saying. What do you think Felicia, in terms of what does it say, feel like, look like?

[A]

Well, maybe this will be an answer to that question. Is like what I really heard in what you were describing, Haley was like two things which was planning and control. Hypervigilance can, can feel like obsessive thinking. It can manifest as an attempt to control every little thing. Like if I'm concerned, if I'm hyper vigilant in relationships and I'm really worried about people liking me, then I'm going to really try to control how that interaction go, right. Whether it's through like changing aspects of myself to get the response I think I need to get, or attempting to control the other person or like trying to read their thoughts. That's a thing that can happen with hyper vigilance, right? Is like sometimes that can manifest as thinking you know more about people than you actually know. Making a lot of assumptions. I think one of the most painful things about hyper vigilance actually is that it can, it can become the self fulfilling prophecy, right. You are afraid that you're going to be hurt. And so you show up in the world and in these interactions in a way that's really guarded and I'm pulling away. So I'm not really vulnerable. I'm not really connecting. It can look like guarded. So I'm aggressive. I'm expecting people to disappoint me. I'm expecting people to hurt me. So I'm going to kind of act out towards them. And I'm thinking of people I know in my life who have experienced a lot of trauma and who are hypervigilant and they just keep on experiencing these problems in relationships. And like part of it is that they show up in this hyper vigilant way that is aggressive or it's really dismissive. And then they get the responses that they're afraid to get most. Right. That is so painful. And the whole time they're like, it's proving their point again and again. So it keeps on reinforcing the hypervigilance rather than getting out of it.

[C]

Yeah. And one more that I was just thinking of Felicia as you were talking about this. Hypervigilance can also show up as a lack of curiosity. Because when we're curious, we're really open, Right. To our experience being one possible explanation to the other person's experience, adding more to the picture. But when we're not curious, when we're making negative assumptions all the time, that can be another clue. Like, all right, I'm always on. I'm making a lot of negative assumptions. I'm not that curious. I've kind of got my mind made up about what this situation is and how this person's thinking and feeling, but I haven't actually asked them anything. So we're building out this checklist, I think. Yeah.

[A]

I love that you mentioned that. That lack of curiosity, that is so such a feature. I already know this. It comes back to that control thing. Right. I know what's going on here. I figured it out. I'm obviously right. This person hates me.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Or they're terrible or I'm gonna get hurt. And so it stops you from showing up. Or like you said about meeting up with that new friend, it's like, let me just try to control everything about it instead of showing up and just being like, oh, I wonder how this interaction will go. Like, no, I've gotta, like, control how we meet and when we get there and what they're gonna think of me.

[B]

So it sounds like there's almost a rigidity involved sometimes.

[C]

Yeah. Which also makes sense because I'm thinking about, like, if someone's listening to us talk about this. Right. I want to be so clear, like, this is not judgment about being really rigid. This is not judgment about making assumptions. All of this comes from having experienced actual threats, actual negative experiences. So if someone is threatening to blackmail you. Right. You don't have time in that moment to be really curious and go, oh, I wonder what. I wonder what happened for them this morning that they're trying to blackmail me or threaten to leave me a one star review on Google. Like, yeah, you're activated. Of course you're activated. So this gets us back into that space of reminding folks of, like, these responses come from a place where it makes sense, but then the hypervigilance gets transferred into situations where it makes less sense. And that's where a lot of the problems come in with it.

[B]

Yeah. And the pain just from being in it. And I suspect that a lingering question, and this is actually a great transition to get into our first question that we sourced from Reddit is when do I give it up? Because I think for a lot of people in certain situations, you need hypervigilance to survive. Or in other scenarios, I think of friends that I've had, they're just not ready to give it up and they would rather personally suffer themselves than risk what could happen if they just let their guard down for a little bit, you know. So I think, you know, obviously the goal for anyone would just be. Yeah, not to suffer with it anymore because it is truly suffering. But I think there is kind of a point where it's like, when is it like safe to give it up? Um, yeah. And just a lot of empathy, like you were saying, for you're this way for a reason and it's not your fault. There's. There's life beyond it, hopefully.

[C]

So I actually love this question because there's curiosity embedded within it. Like, okay, I'm just gonna ask it.

[B]

Then let's get into it. This is in the CPTSD subreddit, which I think a lot of these. Almost all of the questions I was seeing about hypervigilance were coming up, which is complex post traumatic stress disorder. So the question is, how do you protect yourself without being hypervigilant? I have only ever known to protect myself by being hypervigilant. So much so that I don't know when it's safe to relax. The fact that people go out in the world and just feel safe is mind boggling. So my question is maybe for those who have recovered from survival mode and hypervigilance, or those who are secure, how do you know to be aware and when you can let loose? Where is the line between being normally aware and being naive, clueless to what's going on? I don't exactly know when I need to be aware and protect myself and when I can let loose and be calm. I only know to be all or nothing. You don't want to be unaware to what's going on around you, but you also don't want to be overly aware. What's the middle ground?

[C]

I think the first thing that I would want to tell this person is that it's so unfair that they've had experiences that have led them to have to ask this question. And this gets us, you know, a little reference point to what Felicia was talking about of like acknowledging where this came from. Because this probably wasn't a one time thing. This was probably a series of events over years that this person is now asking, like, how do I live? So that's the first thing it's really unfair to have to ask this question. And it's one I've had to ask too. So I, like, get it and the curiosity that's embedded in here. This person is thinking about experiences that are different from their own. So they're thinking about what's it like to be someone who feels safer in the world than I do. They're starting to imagine things, which I think is a really nice sign that they might actually be a bit more ready to explore some things than they are even giving themselves credit for. If this person were talking to me in therapy, I would be talking with them about, like, dosing safe experiences.

[A]

The OP asked this, when is it safe to give it up? Or one of that question came up. And I think. I think it's when you're safe. You know what I mean? It's like, you can't give it up when you're not safe, right? So I think, like, part of what's so damaging about this is that, like you were saying, Haley, like, this probably went on for years and years. This person was, like, repeatedly unsafe. And that that can mean a lot of different things. Like, it could have been physical unsafety, it could have been emotional, psychological unsafety. When we say this, we're not just talking about, like, someone who's under physical threat repeatedly. It could happen many, many different ways. And it can even happen in very subtle ways. You know, we might be unsafe in ways that aren't so obvious to other people, but our bodies are registering them as unsafe. So I think you're right. Like, first things first is like, how do you feel safe? I remember working with a client many, many years ago who had severe trauma, like, so much complex post traumatic disorder, and they had dissociative disorders as well. And I remember being in session with them with their grandchild, sitting on their lap because they would always bring, like, their toddler grandkid to our sessions. And I remember sitting with them and just asking if there was any part of their experience that felt pleasant in their body. And they were like, no, it's all terrible. And I said, can you feel your granddaughter sitting on your lap right now? And how does that feel to you? What's it like being in contact with her? And it was like, oh, right, that feels safe. And so sometimes for people who have been, like, incredibly traumatized, like, what is safe is very hard to find. It's very, very hard to locate a safe, pleasurable, or sometimes even neutral experience. So depending on the severity, it's like, we've got to Be very, I think, gentle with folks. And again, everybody's at a different starting place. Like, this person had severe, prolonged, repeated, super violent trauma. So we, we didn't have a lot to work with. But you have at people at different ranges. And so I think we're looking for ways to build that safety. And because I'm a somatic therapist, I'm always thinking about, like, in the body. But when you're doing somatic therapy, it also has to be trauma informed. So telling somebody who's experienced a lot of physical trauma to be like, just breathe, know, just like feel your breath in your body is sometimes really going to backfire. So I was like, okay, can you feel the tips of your fingers? Can you notice holding her hand? And it's like, okay, that I can tolerate. And that actually feels good.

[C]

And I love that you mentioned the somatic piece, Felicia, because I'm the same way. I'm a brain spotting therapist, which is this super somatically oriented modality. And I noticed this in this question is there's a lot of like, either ors, like an either feeling totally safer and feeling totally under threat. And so I like to explore that gray area and how I would language it too is, you know, when are times where you notice a lot of sensation versus when are times where you notice less sensation in your body or is there an area of your body that feels a little less freaked out, Like a little bit less, like 2% less. And there's also something to be said too about like really honoring the hyper vigilance as well. And this is where, like, the part of me that does like a lot of parks work in therapy would want to ask this person, like, hey, could you make a list of like, the things that your hyper vigilance is really skilled at, the things that it does really, really well that really work for you. And then what are some things that the hyper vigilance is less skilled at or like, maybe you don't like so much or that you appreciate a little bit less? Because that gives us so much rich information about what that part of that person is actually worried about. And then we can start to get into like, well, what's realistic for this person to do?

[A]

Oh, yeah, just like the agency in that question. You know how I think one of the things that can feel really scary for folks when it comes to hyper vigilance is like, well, then I've got to get rid of it. And again, it's that question of, like, how do I keep myself safe? And so I love in that question that you would ask your clients, Haley, like, what is working about this? What isn't working? Like, how is this getting in the way? And then it's like, oh, if this is working in this particular way and I want to keep that, like now I know what that is and I can move towards beginning to release the things that are really getting in the way while knowing I don't have to get rid of everything. Right. And that's maybe where we start to find the appropriate vigilance or appropriate safety seeking behaviors and begin to extract those and divide those from what is actually hyper vigilance and just getting in my way and making my life harder.

[C]

100%. 100%. My clients are used to be talking about it as like updating the job description of their parts. I'm like, I'm like, I don't know if this part of yourself realizes that it's working with a job description from like 2005 and it's been 20 years and like the technology's updated Microsoft Word. Like, yeah, like we need, like we just. It needs training.

[B]

Clippy.

[C]

Yeah, rest in peace, Clippy. Hey, that part's there. We're going to update its job description and it'll change. Just like you've changed and your experiences have changed and it's actually okay because then we can start talking about like dosing safety. And I have like the biggest smile on my face because I have so much fun talking with clients about this. And I find that people often get really surprised by how non threatening some of their initial options are for dosing safety because they're things that that hypervigilance has kept them from even considering.

[A]

So they start to get, give us an example. What is it like in the room? What are the things you guys are coming up with? And then they come back and tell you about it.

[C]

Yeah. Especially in the last five years and the pandemic had a huge role to play in this and it still does. But a lot of people who developed like full blown agoraphobia, like if we think about social anxiety as being really afraid of like interacting with other people or being out in public spaces where an interaction might happen. With agoraphobia, that narrows us down even more to where we are afraid to leave our homes or kind of our safe little bubble that we have for fear of interacting like with the world around you at all. Because it is so unknown, it is so uncertain and the default assumption is that something scary or unsafe is going to happen. And I'm thinking of a client who recognized that they were becoming agoraphobic. They were only leaving their house maybe a couple times a week and only to go to known places like the grocery store. They weren't going anywhere new. They were taking the same route every time. They got really tired of it. But they also didn't know where to start. And I asked them if they had any, like, memories of times where they felt like it was okay or less scary to connect with the world. And to no one's surprise, this person had a lot of really positive memories of being in nature. So we worked with that and started thinking about, yes, the world is big, and it's full of a lot of people, but it's also full of a lot of plants and animals. And those are relationships and connections, too. So instead of telling this person, like, well, why don't you try going for a walk around the block this week?

[A]

Go to a concert.

[C]

Yeah, go to a concert. Go to an outdoor venue. I asked them if, you know, when they got up in the morning, would they be interested in maybe opening up their window and seeing what. Or, like, listening to what they could hear coming through the window. They started noticing a lot of birds that they hadn't noticed before. And we happen to live in an era where we've got Merlin, which is like, the bird song identification app from Cornell university. So they got really. Now they started going like, oh, my gosh. Like, there's this thing I can use to record, and it'll tell me what birds are making those noises and those songs, which then turned into, well, maybe I want to see some of those birds. Right? Okay. How would it feel to spend five minutes just standing outside of your front door or sitting in your backyard for a couple minutes? Can you spot some of those birds? And it goes, like, on and on and on to where this is. Now, someone who feels really comfortable walking around their neighborhood. They like to go for long car drives, drives by themselves. And it all started with finding something in their environment that they felt was less threatening. This is an example that has been a really common theme with the majority of my clients, Even those who aren't dealing with agoraphobia, but anxiety and hypervigilance in general of just finding. Like, okay, maybe it's not going for a walk. Maybe I'm gonna go see if I can, like, spot which flowers are in bloom. That's giving your brain a task and something to focus on.

[A]

We're just basking. We're just over here basking. And, like, the beauty. I mean, I think I Think you're making a really strong case here for why therapy can be so effective for this. You know, when I think about the process of therapy and like, what's actually happening in a therapeutic connection, part of that is CO regulation. And so for folks who don't know what that is, CO regulation, it's basically the concept that, like, we're all affected by each other. We all have our own independent nervous systems, but our nervous systems, like, interact, right? And when you are freaked out, having a hard time, and you can be in the presence of somebody who can attune to where you're at, but also maybe be calm, it can help regulate your system. It can help bring it into a state that's going to be more comfortable. And so I'm hearing about these clients getting to share with you the ways in which they're impacted and the hard things they're experiencing. And then you're coming in, witnessing them, and then really gently, like offering, well, can we. Can we find something that's maybe doesn't feel safe, even if that feels really hard? Can we find something that feels less scary and just, just open up to that just a little bit and you're there, you know, in the. I think of us like little prairie dogs sometimes, right? We're like always kind of like popping our heads up and we're like, are we. Is there something. Does anyone see anything? Are we okay? And you're just also. Yeah, you're just also there being like, yeah, we're good, we're good. And they're like, okay, maybe it could come out a little bit more, right?

[B]

Like you're there to, to help be.

[A]

That other nervous system in the room or even online, which is so cool that this also works online, right? Like, there's a way that our nervous systems can attune, like via video, via the Internet, via voice. It's like we're so good at perceiving so many things, right? That that information still comes through.

[C]

It really does. And it's also the beauty of like video as well and those audio components. Because I think about people I've worked with who are lower vision, right? Maybe they're not fully blind, but reduced visual capacity where being able to hear or even being able to perceive some motion on screen, but that's really like low and slow has been really regulating and it's part of why. Felicia, I love that you brought up co regulation because I explain to my clients that like, some of what you are paying for when you see a therapist is to actually borrow from your therapist's nervous system that some of what you're paying for.

[B]

And it feels awesome.

[A]

Yeah, it feels. Christy can attest it feels.

[B]

Oh, you're so relaxed right now.

[C]

It's also this special gift of being calm and relaxed without being dismissive, because I don't know about either of you, but I have experienced a person in my life who was calm. I'm putting my scare quotes here, but it was like, well, it's not a problem for me, so I don't know why it's such a big deal for you. And, like, that is so different.

[A]

I'm glad you pointed that out. In fact, I love that you're saying that, Haley, because I think sometimes people are a little bit confused about what is therapy. Like, what is happening in therapy, what I paying for, what is the mechanism of change? And I feel like in this conversation in particular, one of the things we're really, really pointing at, one of the things that's so effective when it comes to therapy outcomes, is the relationship between the therapist and the client. Right? And, like, the sort of benefit of therapy is obviously the things you're talking about brainstorming, okay, what can we do differently? I'm getting to know you really well. I'm getting to know how you operate. We're coming up with things. You're getting to come back the next week, and. And we get to talk about what happened when you went and tried this out. But then there's also that. That really important fit between the therapist and the client of, like, do we vibe? You know what I mean?

[C]

Do we vibe?

[A]

And that's not going to be with every therapist and client pairing. Like, that's not a given. And if you don't have that with a therapist, it doesn't. It also doesn't necessarily mean that they're a bad therapist. It just means that they may not be the right fit for you. But part of what we're talking about here is, like, are you matched with a therapist who can really be there in with you, in your experience, and help hold what you're experiencing effectively? And I'm hearing that that's a big piece of what you're doing with your clients, Hayley.

[C]

Right. And the shorthand for this for people to take away is that, like, I'm laughing because I'm thinking of, like, a million different memes right now. But in therapy, the vibes between you and your therapist do, in fact, need to be immaculate. They really do. And this is, like, not gatekeeped knowledge either. Anyone can go on to Google Scholar right now and look up, like, what predicts positive outcomes in therapy. And every single time that these studies have been repeated, it is exactly, exactly what Felicia has said. How you feel toward your therapist is the number one predictor of having successful positive outcomes in therapy. It's not the modality. It is the relationship that is going to be that top predictor. And that includes having a therapist who you can give feedback to, a therapist who will apologize to you if they say something or do something that you don't like. Someone who can model going through a conflict with you maybe in a way that you've never even experienced before. That's some of what you're getting in therapy as well. And that can be so helpful for people experiencing hyper vigilance.

[A]

Ding, ding, ding.

[C]

Someone like, I have clients who I tell them, like, I'm going to tell you this over and over again until you get sick of hearing this, but you do not owe anything to me. You do not owe me your trust. I am brand new to you. And I say this so often to people because sometimes we get six months into therapy and they're like, actually, there's something I haven't been telling you. And I can see them kind of like, brace to hear how I'm going to react to that. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, thank you for letting me know. I'm also really glad that you listened to yourself and that you waited until it felt like the right time. I'm really glad that you kind of observed me and hopefully have gotten to see that I'm really consistent with how I show up.

[A]

So we good?

[C]

We're good. And we can even dose this one out. Like, how is it for you to see me be curious about what it's been like for you to wait to tell me this? Do you want to share anything about this today or do you want me to just know that there's something we haven't gotten to yet that we can maybe follow up on next week? Like, I'm constantly giving people options because that's also something that people who are hyper vigilant have not tended to have in the past. They tend to have not been given options. So having someone who can do that is like, holy shit, what do you mean? What do you mean?

[B]

I create those options for myself, actually.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think is something else that I, I think about. And there is one that I would love to hear from both of you. Just one little line in this that really kind of strikes me before we move on to Our next example, because a lot of what is coming up for me when I'm hearing both of you talk is I come from a background of more religious trauma. So my sweet therapist has talked to me a lot about black and white thinking. Okay, so the line where she says, where's the line between being normally aware and being naive, clueless to what's going on? So, like, when I think of, like, the naive slash clueless side of things. I used to have this friend. We only traveled in an airport together once, but he had like a backpack as his carry on and literally two plastic grocery bags with holes in it just, like dangling from his backpack with stuff in it. I'm just like. It's one of those things where I think of, like, the naive clues. Like, anyone could just take something out of there. Or like, you hit one corner with your little chaotic backpack and all of your shit is just all over the.

[C]

Floor now, you know?

[B]

So I think of, like, this sort of thing where if I let, you know, the hyper vigilance, it's like, it's my zipped up backpack and I don't lose anything and no one's gonna steal anything for me, and that's how that is.

[C]

Or.

[A]

And you're wearing your backpack on the front of your body and hugging it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All the clips are like that kind of thing. Because you're like, well, that's. That's this. Or you're the chaotic friend with grocery bags flapping around off of your backpack. So my thought is, like, how does, like, black and white thinking play into this?

[C]

I love that image.

[A]

I love it too.

[B]

That's so funny.

[C]

I mean, I grew up, I was a very devout, very good Catholic. Okay. For a long time, a lot of people don't realize that about me. Given that programming of, like, it's either this or that, and there's a line and you step over it, and then you are so screwed. Unless you go through a very specific.

[A]

Series of steps and try not to develop ocd. I dare you so hard.

[C]

It's right there. It's flirting with you. But look away. If I have this person in front of me asking, where's the line? I would so, so lovingly, like, look at them and go, what if there's not a line? What if it's not button neat and tidy? And what if it's maybe okay to consider that the line might not exist? We want there to be a line, because if there's a line, then we can figure out how to be safe.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Like, if there's a line. Beautiful. Good rules give me certainty.

[A]

It's like a repetition of the hyper vigilance all over again. I'll just be hypervigilant about where that line is. I'll know where that line is at all times, and I'll make sure I'm on the right side, side of the line, and then we're good. Always be safe. Nothing bad will ever happen. Right?

[C]

And so to kind of go off this idea from earlier of dosing safety, I now introduce you to this beautiful concept of safety in making mistakes. Because this is another thing I work with so many people on. And I got like, Christy's like, absolutely not.

[B]

I love pass on that activity.

[C]

Thanks. But this is a thing that, like, we would work on in therapy, is figuring out, okay, you already know how to be aware. That part that box is like, super checked off. Great job. What has not been checked off is, like, one permission to make mistakes. Permission to treat yourself kindly and gently when you make a mistake. And also recognizing what kinds of mistakes are dangerous. Like, they threaten your safety, your livelihood, your like, right? Those basics, like, think Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like food, water, sheltie, shelter, Sheltie loves a dog. But like, protecting your animals.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Okay, but thinking about those things versus, like, what are mistakes that are uncomfortable?

[B]

Like, nothing bad is going to happen.

[C]

Like, right?

[B]

How does it feel like to make that mistake?

[C]

Super silly mistake. Let's say you're baking some cookies. You think you're adding a cup of sugar, but you added a cup of salt. That's a mistake, right? You might not find out about it till the cookies come out of the oven. And they. Maybe they look a little funny and you take a bite and you go, oh, something happened here. Is that gonna threaten your safety? No. One bite of a salty cookie, okay? You're gonna be fine.

[A]

I'm just imagining the person being like, but I made these cookies. Now I have to eat all. It's like, what is the next ingredient?

[B]

Now I have to eat them.

[C]

That's too bad.

[A]

Like, what is the next thought? Is it a kind thought that follows? Is it a positive, punishing thought that follows? Is it a catastrophic thought that follows?

[B]

Y.

[C]

That's where being with your own emotions. And by that I mean, okay, I'm gonna keep up a cookie example. Welcome to how my brain works. It's food all the time. Food, food, food.

[B]

Now I want a cookie, but you.

[C]

Get to go, oh, my gosh, this sucks. I really wanted cookies and I made a mistake, and I get to Be disappointed. Cause I was really looking forward to this. I'm really bummed. I'm just gonna be with that for a moment while I figure out what I want to do. Like, do I want to remake these? Do I have the energy to make another batch? Do I want to just like run to the store really quick and maybe buy a pre made mix that I can just pop in the oven? What do I want to do? But you get to go through that series of steps. And I think this is the other thing that's so hard with hyper vigilance is people are often really asking, like, how do I never feel bad? And unfortunately, there's not a way to stop that from happening.

[A]

And you're not bad or wrong when it occurs, which I think is the thing that we're fearing on the bottom of that is like, well, if I were just the correct type of human who was living right. And again, also, hey, former, former Christian here. So we all have that in common, then I would just not experience pain. I wouldn't feel bad. This is evidence. The pain I'm experiencing right now is evidence that I've done something wrong or that someone else has done something wrong. And like, that conclusion is something that will keep us just constantly running from that discomfort. So I hear what you're saying here. Haley is like beginning to build a tolerance for that emotional discomfort without going to the conclusion that I am innately bad or wrong or like someone else is innately bad or wrong. Because then it's like the world is just so dangerous and so threatening all the time. If that's the case.

[B]

Yeah, this is literally just like free therapy for me.

[C]

By the way, you're welcome.

[A]

I'm not crying right now.

[B]

Or like, you're doing okay, sweetie.

[C]

Yeah, you really are.

[A]

You are.

[C]

Because you know, Felicia, I'm thinking about this too, with what we were talking about earlier of like, the negative assumptions and thinking that we're wrong or bad. Sometimes making a mistake is how we identify where we have some unmet needs. So like, if I put the wrong ingredient in my cookie batter, maybe that happened because I didn't sleep really well the night before because I was really stressed. And so maybe the thing that I do after tossing my salty cookies is seeing, can I maybe get in bed, you know, 10 minutes earlier than I did the night before? Can I meet myself in that way? And this is where curiosity also comes back into the mixture. Because it's okay to ask, like, why did something happen? It's perfectly reasonable to want to know why what's less reasonable is to think that we're always going to get an answer to it. We're not always going to, especially when other people are involved. But for ourselves, like, sometimes we have an off day, sometimes we're tired, sometimes we're stressed, sometimes we need to just slow down. And slowing down is one of those things that's also really hard to do when hyper vigilance is your norm. So it's a skill that we build is recognizing, where can I slow down? Where are those places where I don't. I don't have to feel like there's a fire. Yeah.

[B]

And that is like the perfect transition to our next question. Also from the CPTSD thread, because this is very much about someone who's like, ready to stop, like, they're ready to. To break this behavior. So. Dealing with hypervigilance in a relationship with a safe partner. I've been with my partner for almost a year, and he's very sweet, calm, understanding, etc. I have been hypervigilant our whole relationship. Monitoring his mood, very sensitive to tone shifts. I can't relax, can't get comfortable. Always looking for signs of danger, lots of physical anxiety and crying due to perceived change in behavior, etc. I'm not sure if I have CPTSD, but this is a response to growing up in a verbally abusive household with a parent who had unpredictable explosive mood swings and anger due to BPD addiction or borderline personality disorder, among other things. I was also physically threatened by them a number of times. Any tips for being hypervigilant in this way? I know logically that he is a safe person, but I can't seem to control these reactions. I'm discouraged that I'm still like this after a year, and I'm worried I'll never be able to have a healthy relationship. I'm in therapy.

[A]

I love that part. Just like all of this, it's just like, hey, everyone, before you start telling me to go to therapy, I am in therapy when I'm doing my due.

[B]

Diligence, which also is a part of hypervigilance. Right? But I'm just figure it out, you know?

[C]

Oh my gosh, I have a million thoughts. So many thoughts. Because I remember.

[A]

Oh my God, that was the post I put on Reddit 10 years ago.

[C]

Christy, you found my throwaway account. But really, I've been with my partner for 10 years. Things were really, really sweet, you know, the first year. Then when we moved in together, all of my trauma shit reactivated in a way. Where I was like, hello, here we go. Welcome to the Thunderdome. And here's the thing that this person needs to know. The fact that they're even in a relationship after experiencing so much harm within the context of relationships is major. Like, that's really worth celebrating that they were open enough to the idea of developing a partnership, that they have this person in their life. And the good old like, quote, that's like, things that are broken in relationships need to be healed in relationships.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it doesn't necessarily mean that we need to heal in the relationships where we got really harmed. It just means that in order for this kind of next step to happen, we have to have new experiences. So this person might be someone who wants to make a list, put that hyper vigilance to work in a way that is a little more productive, and, like, make a list of all the ways that their partner shows them that they're a safe person. What are the things that this person does that different from their caregivers when they were growing up and have something that they can actually reference? Because it sounds like this person really is aware that their partner is so different from their family. But, like, their nervous system, their body hasn't quite caught up to that yet. And of course, they're talking about a lifetime of lived experience with this family versus one year of a new relationship where this person is like, you had a bad day. Oh, my gosh, tell me about it. Do you want to hug? Like, I'm here. I love you? Like, that can be freaky as hell when you have your default setting be, oh, you had a bad day, like, suck it up or whatever. They're probably much worse version was that they experienced.

[A]

Yeah, I love. I love all of that advice. What really struck me is all of the ways that they're monitoring their person and then probably coming up with meanings around that. So I think one of the best ways for me to, like, get out of hyper vigilance is to just ask questions. It's basically to notice when I am inferring something about another person and just ask. Build that muscle of like, oh, right. I. I tend to just assume these things and then act as if they're true. But let me just go ask that person, which can feel so vulnerable. But for me, that's been one of the very practical ways to get out of this cycle. Another thing, if you're in a really committed relationship with somebody who's safe. This is something that I would teach when I was working with couples and normalize, is that we all have wounds. Like, no one gets through life without some sort of pain, some sort of insecurity, some sort of wound. We all have tender spots. You're not bad or wrong for having a tender spot. Your partner has one, too. You probably have a few, in my opinion. When you're in a healthy relationship, part of the role you're taking on in each other's lives is you're caring about those tender parts in each other. And so I would always teach the couples I work with to ask for reassurance. And, like, the way that I would say it, the way that I would kind of coach people to say it, is, you know, honey, I'm having that. I'm having that thing happen. You know, the thing that happens for me where I think, da, da, da, da, da, or I feel da, da, da, da da, or that's happening right now. And I just want to ask you to remind me that that's not what's going on here, or that's not true, or that you actually think, da, da, da, da, da, Right. And if they were working with these people as a couple, I would really make it clear that, like, this got set up before the two of you ever met. So, like, this is not like an insult or an attack on the other person. This isn't even really about you that much. It's not. This person has this sensitivity. They have this wound. They were in a home where there was addiction, where there was verbal violence, where there were threats of physical violence repeatedly. That's where they grew up. They had years of that experience. And so there's a very tender spot, and that happened way before they ever encountered their partner. So I think, you know, if you're there op. If you're there with this partner, where you can do that, where you have that level of intimacy, I would really start to, like, open that up and ask for it.

[C]

Just.

[A]

And that can be really sweet and so reassuring. To have your loved one, to have your partner say, like, to see you in that wound and say, like, I'm here. And that makes so much sense. And of course, I don't feel that way about you or, of course I love you. I don't think you're a bad person. No, sweetie, I'm not mad at you.

[C]

You're right.

[A]

I was kind of short when I came in today. I'm really tired and.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[A]

You're just really tired. Oh, I thought that you were mad at me because I did this thing in the morning, and. And, Right. It's like, oh, no, that's not what's going on.

[C]

Yeah. And Felicia, some of what you're talking about too is this thing that a lot of people learn is like double meanings or inferred meanings of. Like, so many of us who have experienced a lot of trauma do not realize that some people actually just mean what they've said. There's no double meaning, there's no hidden agenda, but they're just honest. And that also takes time to learn. It takes time to trust. And it's normal for it to take time to trust that. This is really similar actually to our first question, but to the op, I would actually point out that they might be doing a bit better with breaking their own response pattern than they realize because they are recognizing that this is actually happening. They're feeling disappointed that they are having these reactions. And that disappointment is actually a really interesting sign to notice because they could just be in it. If they were still in like full blown survival mode, they would just be reacting left and right. Right.

[A]

We would not be reading this post. We'd be reading a post that's like, my partner is terrible. I can't trust them. They're like, da, da, da. But that's not what this post was.

[C]

That's not what this post was. And so this is the reminder that I would give them too, and that this person's therapist may already be giving them as well. And it's okay to need to hear it from more sources. Healing takes time. And it is okay to be frustrated and pissed off by how long it can take. That said, it's also important to acknowledge just how much has changed. Like a lot has already changed. Like, you're in therapy, you have a kick ass partner who loves you and who like, you want to see, see as accurately as possible. Which I think is really sweet. Like, this person is going, I don't want to see my partner as a threat. I don't want my partner to feel like he needs to hide or that they need to hide. Like if they're having a bad day.

[A]

Like they should be able to just.

[C]

Have a bad day.

[B]

Yeah. I think what is great about a healthy relationship, again, even if this relationship isn't like a forever relationship, it is still an opportunity to explore a lot of this stuff. Because I think for anyone who has had developed something like hypervigilance from a person, an institution, a group of people, whatever, there's always this nagging and often very painful answer that you will never get or you have to just kind of guess. And it's like why are you doing this to me? You know? And, like, a lot of people just, like, don't get that answer or the answer that they receive is almost as painful as, like, the abuse that even happened. So I think in a relationship, being vulnerable and being like, are you mad at me? Kind of opens up this, like, why are you doing this? And I think that that is so scary. So, too op. And anyone else who's been in relationships like that, it's like, that's a scary thing to just, you know, ask for that honesty. It takes so much bravery. Felicia's saying. It's just like, hey, can you kind of, like, clear this up for me? Cause I think it's fine. But also, part of me is, like, fucking terrified.

[A]

The story in my mind right now is. And that's something I would have people say. It's like, you did this? And then in my mind, this was what I came up with. Is that true or not? And, like, maybe some parts of that are going to be true. You know, maybe some parts of it aren't. Aren't. But I think, like, getting out of that habit of, like, I know everything that's going on and I can figure it out is like, hyper vigilance. It's the hyper vigilance.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And this is another spot, too, where, like, I love even just putting things in the language of, like, parts, because, like. And I'll pull from my own life. Something I have said to my partner sometimes is I'm like, there's, like, this little screenplay going on in my head, and whoever is directing that thing kind of got a bias toward negativity. And here's how this is getting written in my head. And I, like, I need to workshop it with you a little bit because I don't know if that's the most accurate. Sometimes getting that little bit of distance and even talking about it that way can lend it to itself to humor and some, like, levity as well, where it's like, wow, like, this person saying it out loud.

[B]

You're like, oh, that's okay.

[A]

Yeah, that's a little. That's a little bizarre.

[C]

Like, this is a little funky. I'm, like, giving Stephen King a run for his money and just naming that. This part of me is very talented, very creative. But, like, let's pull it back a little bit. Let's fact check.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

My brain is churning out that fake news. I mean, and honestly, that's what our brains are wired to do, I think. Let's make sure we say that in this episode, before we go, which is like trauma aside, like completely set aside, we are biologically wired to make what's not working, what feels uncomfortable, what we perceive as dangerous, whether it actually is or isn't more important in terms of how we spend our attention, how we spend our brain power. Because that's part of our species survival strategy. And in many ways it works.

[C]

It works a little too well, right?

[A]

Because if we're. If we're right, like 1% of the time, and that 1% of the time we stay alive because we were right, that's worth it evolutionarily. And so today, millions of years of evolution later, we still got that hard wiring. And so it's important for us to understand that as much healing as we do, like, that's just part of our. That's part of our species makeup. We have to recognize, or it's helpful to recognize that we're going to have to spend a little bit more effort intentionally noticing what's working and what's good, because that's not. That's not how we're wired.

[B]

So true. It's just like this thing that keeps coming back to me about just how it can keep you safe and when to put it down. Like, when I was driving my family to the mountains this week, there was a car that just, like, pulled. It was like a little old lady, but she pulled in front of us. We were like two to three seconds away from just like t boning damn this person. And I break. And I, like, was like, it's good. And they're like, wow, that was so amazing you did that. And I was like, I have anxiety. I catch this shit all the time, you know? Like, I will always.

[A]

I literally felt the vibes as we were approaching this part of the road. I knew something was off.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, it is just like a mechanism that, yeah, the human brains have. And I do think, you know, someone who is hyper vigilant is less likely to maybe do something like get pickpocketed or get in a car crash or that kind of stuff. But, yeah, I think it's just tough when I think about friends I have or family members where they feel like their hyper vigilance is the thing that's keeping their baby alive. Or their hyper vigilance is the thing that's keeping them out of bankruptcy from these traumas that they've had. And then they bring. Is it practical almost and safe to kind of put that down, Knowing hyper is like a word that is, like, too much, you know? But I don't know. I'm just thinking about all those. Those people out there who are just like, I'm not sure if it's a good time to put. Put this away yet, you know?

[C]

Yeah. And I think to that I would maybe kind of pose a different question because if we could truly just put our hyper vigilance down, we would do it. This is one of those more like a black or white thinking. Like, I've either got it in my hands and I'm using it, or I've set it down and I've walked away. And for whatever reason, this is part of how a lot of us work. Sometimes we don't notice when we've started to create distance between ourselves and our hyper vigilance. So some kind of reflection questions that I sometimes give to my clients and that I will share here is, you know, what are the things that you're doing now that you didn't think would be possible for you six months ago or two years ago? Like, kind of pick your timeframe. Most people who I ask that question of have things that they will recognize that they didn't even realize that they were doing, where they're like, oh, like, actually I've started going to this, like, online writers meetup. And I used to be someone who didn't want to interact with groups of people at all, but going to this online thing feels a lot safer to me than in person. And so we can kind of future cast that of like, what are some things that you would like to be doing six months from now? What are some ways you would like to be experiencing your relationship with your partner, with your coworker, with your parent that you're not experiencing right now? Is this is a safer way to tap into some of that curiosity? It's also a way to practice seeing what you would like, which we don't often get to be in that mode. When our, like, hyper vigilance is on 24 7, we're not thinking really about, like, well, it would be really nice and preferable to be experiencing X, Y or Z thing. We're just like, I just need to not die right now. We're having a panic attack.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But letting yourself kind of check that out and just planting some of those seeds, like pulling from the past, doing some reflection, catching some things that maybe are going well that you haven't given yourself credit for, and then also going into the future kind of starting to build some capacity for hope as well, you know.

[A]

So we've talked about this topic pretty thoroughly here like, at the end of the day, you know, people want to know what their therapist really thinks about this. Like, actually is thinking about this. So, like, what advice do you have that you just really want to make sure people know the most? Like, uncovered, you know, like, behind the therapist mask? Like, what's the thing that you just want people to know about this? So, Haley, that question.

[C]

I do not mean this in, like, a dismissive way, but I've got, like, the Kris Jenner meme in my head of, like, you are doing great, sweetie. Like, you are. You really are. Because you're asking these questions. Part of you is curious. And if you're wanting to know, like, what. What does a therapist think about all of this? I think that you're not giving yourself enough credit for how far you've already come. I think you need to practice recognizing that you have been given some really shitty life experiences. And some part of you decided that wasn't going to be the only part of your story. Some part of you has decided to get online, get on Reddit, ask other people, hear about other people's experiences. Some of you have decided to already start going to therapy. Some of you, you have decided to start relationships so that hypervigilance hasn't stopped these things from happening. And that's really good that it hasn't stopped it. That's really interesting that it hasn't stopped it, because it means that your hyper vigilance isn't interfering with everything in the way that you maybe think it has been. You're already on the path to having your hyper vigilance not be 247 and constant. And then the last part that I would say, because I think this is part of the process that gets overlooked a lot, you get to be pissed off.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Some of my favorite therapy sessions are when clients come with all of their trauma, and they go, yeah, know what, Haley? This, like, I'm so pissed that someone did X, Y, or Z thing to me, and now I have to clean this all up. Like, what is that? And to that I say, well, it's a load of, but we can pick it up together. And that's some of the beauty of therapy, is that you're not alone with it. Mm. I'm never judging my clients. When they tell me all of the things that their hyper vigilance has prompted them to do that they feel embarrassed about or ashamed about, I just go, of course you did it that way. Of course that's what the best option seemed like at the time. And I hear you want to do something different now. So let's check that out. It gets to be like that, matter of fact.

[A]

So, Haley, you know, speaking of people not being alone in this, how can people find you?

[C]

Oh, people can find me on yield Internet. I have been chronically online for too. For too long. But they can go to my website, which is chicorycounseling.com I'm on Instagram at Chicory Counseling. I'm also yapping over on threads at Chicory Counseling, Chickery Counseling. It's all there, all of the handles you can find me. And really, I tell people, you know, if you want to be a therapy client of mine, the only catch is.

[A]

You have to be located Oregon or Colorado.

[C]

Oregon or Colorado.

[A]

Those are the two want to work with.

[C]

Hayley, if you want therapy, that's how you get it. But if you just want, like, an example of a therapist who, like, one, has lived through a lot of, like, the exact situations that people are going on Reddit with. Hi, it's me. But two, if you just want an example of a therapist who doesn't hide behind, like, this really overly clinical mask, it's also me. What you see is what you get. I aim to be as consistent as possible. Like, how you hear me talking, like, with you two today is how I talk with my therapy clients, which I think is just nice and more human like I am. I do not talk like this all the time in my Zen land, because I'm not in Zen land all the time. And I think that's really human and really healthy.

[A]

Yeah. So if you've enjoyed listening to Haley, you can find [e-mail] Is that right? Yes. Follow her on Instagram and get, like, a nice dose.

[B]

Get a dose of Haley in your life.

[C]

Get a dose of Haley.

[A]

Haley. Thank you so much for being here, Haley. We've enjoyed having you here.