← What Your Therapist Thinks
What Your Therapist Thinks
How Do I Set Boundaries With Family? A Guide To Surviving The Holidays
00:47:08
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- [00:01]
A
If you're enjoying this show, I have another podcast I think you'll love. Well, Adjusting is a comedic advice show where hosts Robin Hopkins and producer stuff help guests manage stress, set boundaries, find their joy, and save a dime or two. Which is important because inflation. Robin's like a mixture of best friend, mom, boss and hype lady, disarming her guests with a blend of wisdom, reality checks, and humor. They may start the conversation as strangers, but soon they're besties, opening up about their family finances and self sabotaging habits. You'll find a wide range of topics like caring for aging parents and how that affects our relationships with siblings and our partners, or creating structure and staying creative in a world of freelance hustle while dealing with bipolar disorder. Well, Adjusting is not npr. It's not credentialed, but it's honest. Talk about real problems. And I'm telling you, despite the sometimes heavy topics, it's fun, funny as hell, listen on wherever you listen to your podcast now.
- [01:03]
B
Boundaries are the distance at which I can love both me and you.
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A
This is a process. It's about moving through this with better boundaries, taking care of yourself a little bit better. That's good enough.
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C
I'm just like, already learning so much and I can already imagine how much better that would go. If that's your mindset going into it.
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B
You will not have as much of an opportunity to build a relationship with someone if they don't know what it is you're needing or wanting in a relationship. Relationship.
- [01:30]
A
That is like one of the hardest things as a therapist when you're like, no, I'm not this person's big sister. I'm their therapist.
- [01:36]
B
One of the most surprising reasons for people when they're first learning about them is that.
- [01:45]
A
The Internet loves throwing around words like gaslighting, narcissist, and toxic. But most of the time, they're getting it wrong.
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C
In this podcast, we unpack the Internet's most asked anonymous mental health question questions.
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A
That you wish you could ask a therapist.
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C
And by anonymous we mean the Reddit questions you post in the middle of the night.
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A
If you're new here, welcome. I'm Felicia Keller Boyle, licensed somatic therapist.
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C
And clinical advisor@besttherapist.com and I'm Christy Plantinga, founder of Best Therapists, and I've been in a lot of therapy. This show is brought to you by BestTherapist.com, a therapist directory that vets therapists so you can focus on fitness, not quality. You can find your best therapist@besttherapist.com it's time to find out what therapists are really thinking. Katrina P. Moutner they them is a queer trauma informed therapist who works within an anti oppressive and intersectional framework in Oakland, California. Katrina supports clients who straddle multiple cultures and identities and struggle with satisfaction, discrimination, stress and feeling like they're never doing enough. Through authentic relationships, radical self compassion and pragmatic support, Katrina collaborates with clients on discovering resilience and peace when not therapizing towards a better future. They enjoy dancing, eating good food with friends and family, and collecting beautiful objects. Katrina, welcome to the show.
- [03:08]
B
Thank you so much.
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A
I'm really grateful you were available because I just kept on thinking about you once we decided to do this topic. So, yeah, I'm really glad you're here.
- [03:19]
B
I'm glad to be here too.
- [03:20]
C
This is such an important topic and we are excited to get this out just before the holidays because as they're approaching, many people are going to be with family at this time and that can be really great and joyful. It can also be complicated and painful potentially. So we wanted to get an episode of out about specifically how to set boundaries with family, which is always good advice. Like we always should, you know, have this, but specifically for the holidays since this is, I think, typically a more close time, emotionally charged even. So we're super grateful that you made time for us.
- [03:59]
B
Absolutely.
- [04:00]
C
Okay, so first things first. Why are boundaries important?
- [04:04]
B
Yeah, that's a very good question. Boundaries are important for a lot of reasons. And I think maybe one of the most surprising reasons for people when they're first learning about them is that they actually allow you to get closer to people. Right. Or to potentially deepen a relationship. Usually we think of boundaries as being ways to separate ourselves from other people, but I think that when we find ways to say no, or actually I need it this way, then we can feel freer to say yes or become more vulnerable in other ways. So I think boundaries are little too big ways that we can manage a relationship and keep it in a place that feels more comfortable for us.
- [04:56]
C
That makes a lot of sense. And I've never thought about it. Making yourself freer to say yes because. Yeah, I guess in my mind, yeah, boundaries, I just imagine like a little wall almost where it's like, okay, you know, it's, it feels limiting in some ways, but yeah. What are, what's an example? Or maybe can you go into a little bit more how that frees us up for more yeses in our relationships?
- [05:21]
B
Well, so there's a quote that I really love and I might be slightly misquoting it, but I believe it is Prentice Hemphill who said like boundaries are the distance at which I can love both me and you. If I keep myself in a place where I can stay with myself and offer myself like love and understanding, then I'm going to be able to offer more love and understanding to others. A small example of a boundary that we might use in everyday or frequently in relationships. It could be something as small as. Hold on, can you slow down a second? I'm having trouble tracking what it is you're saying right now. Right. So it's like normally we might just try and like keep up with something that someone is trying to say to us very quickly, but trying to put in a pause and saying, I'm actually a bit overwhelmed right now. Can we slow down? For me that's like a mini boundary.
- [06:19]
A
I literally did this with a family member like a few weeks ago and I was like, oh my God, here it goes. And it actually went really well.
- [06:27]
B
Oh great.
- [06:28]
A
It was amazing. Yeah, I wasn't expecting it to go well, to be honest. But it did go well and it allowed us to, to your point, like stay in connection longer. Like allowed me to stay connected to this person rather than what might have happened if I hadn't said that. Which would have been like feeling overwhelmed, maybe starting to get upset myself, maybe trying to get off the call sooner, but instead I was able to say like, hey, can we slow down? Like I'm getting overwhelmed here and I want to keep on hearing you, but I need this to slow down. And they were receptive. So progress.
- [07:04]
B
That's awesome. Yeah, so it's like it can be something as small as that to something as large as maybe what we consider a more typical boundary. Like I need you to respect my partners presence at this holiday or else I won't be coming to the holidays. Right. So I think an important distinction that I use when I'm talking about boundaries is it's something where you are setting an expectation or setting a ground rule where you can be the one to enforce it rather than pressuring anybody else or expecting someone else to enforce it for you.
- [07:42]
C
Yeah, I'm just like already learning so.
- [07:44]
B
Much and I, I feel like, you know, I could set, I could lay.
- [07:47]
C
Down a boundary or two, you know, but yeah, just the nuances I think in this I've never thought about. Yeah, I need to be the one that upholds that instead of kind of placing the onus on the other Person. Yeah, that's. That's so interesting. And I can already imagine how much better that would go if that's your mindset going into it.
- [08:08]
A
Yeah.
- [08:08]
B
And like, ultimately you're not able to force someone else's behavior to change. Right. You can control only your own behavior. And so having a plan for what is it that I'm gonna do if this thing is not respected, that's like an actual thing that you can enact rather than getting into some kind of power struggle of like, you're still not doing this thing, you're still not doing this thing, just like continuing that cycle. Not to say that it's easy, but I think making that distinction is important. So oftentimes the sort of, like, ultimate result of a boundary that's not being respected repeatedly is probably for you to remove yourself. Right. To disengage from whatever it is that keeps happening over and over. But hopefully it doesn't get to that point. And I think sometimes having clarity of a boundary, like, communicating it very, you know, straightforwardly. Like, sometimes people honestly just, like, don't know. Like they are confused about what is expected of them and not as expected of them. Or maybe they just don't know that you're actually willing to enforce a boundary. And then once you do, it's like, oh, oh, shit, okay, something is actually going to happen. It fights over.
- [09:26]
A
So it really isn't okay for me to do this. After all, they weren't just, like, pretending like this was a big deal. Like, it is actually a big deal to them.
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B
Exactly. So I think. I think getting clarity around that in itself can be something that makes things happen.
- [09:44]
A
One of the things that I've heard people get really frustrated about in therapy when they're beginning to make boundaries, like in any area of their life, is the frustration of people not respecting that or not acting in accordance with the boundaries that they've set. And they're like, I set the boundary. Like, they should just be doing things how I want them to do things. Things now. But to your point, Katrina, it's like, that's not actually how boundaries work. You can't control another person's behavior. I think boundaries have more to do with. Yeah, you really deciding what kind of behaviors are and aren't okay around you, like in your presence. And then having a plan for what you'll do if folks are not, like, acting in accordance with your boundaries. And that can be so hard to uphold with your family, especially around the holidays. Right. Like, it's a pretty high stakes situation. And there's I don't know. I'm assuming you love your family. Maybe not. Maybe there are other feelings there too. But like, you know, you probably wouldn't be listening to this podcast if you didn't have some love, some desire to be close to them. And so it can be really, really painful to be in that situation and be needing to make boundaries and then God forbid, upholding them if they're crossed. Like that is so hard. Yeah.
- [10:59]
B
And like, I also think that there are strategic ways that we can quote unquote, like, enforce boundaries that are not as harsh and maybe we don't even think about them as enforcing boundaries. Like, I think there is such thing and I know this is like anathema in some ways to therapy, but like there is strategic avoidance that I think can sometimes be appropriate.
- [11:21]
A
Like a bathroom break.
- [11:23]
B
Like a bathroom break. Like, I'm going to go check on so and so in the kitchen. Oh, I want to. I haven't said hi to so and so yet. And to me, I'm also like a harm reduction therapist and I take a very broad approach to what harm reduction means. Like, not just in terms of like managing substance use, but like, if there is harm happening in your relationships, is there a way to reduce a little bit of what's going on right now, to de escalate, to make some strategic choice that is going to give you an option to step away, reground, figure out how you want to deal with things next or just get a break, Just do something different. Do something that's actually like delightful or joyful or find the things at the holidays that you are actually there for.
- [12:12]
A
That sounds important to maybe spend some time with ahead of going into the holidays. Especially if, you know, you might be going into a holiday experience with your family that might be triggering, might ruffle your feathers, cross some boundaries to be aware of what you're looking forward to ahead of time. That way in those moments when you do maybe need a break, you can redirect your attention to the things that you're really excited about. And I think, Katrina, this is something I've heard you talk about before too. I really loved how you talked about harm reduction and how like the concepts can be applied outside of its typical realm, which is substance addiction, substance use. And to me, you know, I think when people are on their healing journeys, when they're trying to create more boundaries in their lives and with their families, there can be this kind of like all or nothing approach. Like maybe I really struggled to create boundaries and now I now If I'm, like, really doing the right thing, I'm going to have the best boundaries ever, and no one will ever cross them. And I will walk right out of there if anybody says something I don't like. And people can be really hard on themselves for that. But I really like what you're saying here about basically folks giving themselves permission to basically just make it a little less bad. Like, you might not walk right out because maybe that's not where you're at today, and that might not even actually be that helpful. But you can, like, walk into the other room.
- [13:36]
B
You can even have a petty moment, you know, in your head if that helps you feel better. You know, like, you can be rolling your eyes. You can be like, okay, yeah, sure, Mom. And, like, not really fully being there, even internally. And I think that that's okay. Like, that has to be okay. Sometimes, like, we give ourselves permission to be real, even if it's not right now, we can't be real externally because we know that that might escalate things. I don't think that that's giving in to people pleasing or toxicity or some other type of harm necessarily. I think that getting through to a time when we can feel, like, more aligned with our values and, like, act more aligned from our values is. Is valuable, like, on its own.
- [14:25]
A
Right.
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B
It's. It's okay to do what you need to do to get to the next step so that you can get back on board with how you want to be moving forward.
- [14:34]
A
Yeah, I'm really hearing, like, do your best. Like, this is a process. It's not about having, you know, the holiday that changes everything. It's about, like, moving through this with maybe more grace, better boundaries, taking care of yourself a little bit better. And, like, that's good enough. Like, that is something to celebrate and, like, it'll give you the opportunity to get through it so that you can, I don't know, learn something else, shore up your boundaries. Like, do the next holiday, maybe even in a better way than you did this one.
- [15:06]
C
I think now actually is a good time to transition to my next question, which is our tactical, quick and dirty. How to set an effective boundary. I know this is a pretty big question, but when you're working with your clients, when people come to you just, you know, who've never done this before or again, I think it takes years to really refine those skills. How would you teach someone on how to set a boundary?
- [15:33]
B
I think the first step, which may seem sort of obvious, but sometimes we skip over, is to Stop and think about what it is that we actually want to change and to get really clear about it in and try to narrow it down to like an actual behavior or like something concrete. Right. So it's going to be harder if it's like I am setting a boundary that so and so can't be mean to me. It's like, even though, yes, that would be the ultimate like goal and like ideal, it's going to be really hard to determine if that has been met or not. Right. And like, you don't have to be super fancy about this or like super strict about it, but it's like, try and think of an example of why, how you know when someone is being mean to you, what actually happens? What's the thing they say? What's the thing they start talking about? Like, what's the tone shift? Like you just have to get a little bit more specific with yourself and then you have to decide people have different thoughts about this and in different contexts. Are you actually going to explain the boundary directly to the person or not? Are you going to give them an opportunity to change their behavior or not? Right. Depending on who it is and what the relationship is. You may want to say, hey, this is me trying to like build my relationship with you. It's really hard for me. When you do X, can you please not do X? You can also decide whether or not you're going to explain the consequence of whether or not they do X.
- [17:18]
C
Right.
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B
You could just leave it at that and know within yourself how you might respond. Or especially if they keep violating that boundary, you can say something like, hey, I've been asking you to not do X and you keep doing it. If you do it again, here's what I'm going to do in response. And again, this all sounds very simple, but like, it takes a lot of practice but just sort of like breaking it down step by step. This is how I would like think about crafting a boundary and then I guess executing upon that boundary when the time comes. And that can be like we've discussed, like in little ways or big ways. It can be a short term thing, it can be a long term thing, but that is how I try to break it down with my clients. Does that make sense?
- [18:06]
A
Oh, it makes perfect sense. I think these are fantastic steps to take. And I was chuckling to myself earlier because it reminded me of this card game I used to play where the rules are enforced, but people don't tell you the rules. So you have to learn by experiencing it. And so when you said you can make a boundary and you don't have to announce it necessarily or you don't have to say what's going to happen when someone crosses it repeatedly. You could just leave eventually.
- [18:36]
B
Right.
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A
And that's one way to do it. I'm not saying that's the best way. I'm not saying it's the worst way either. It's just a way. Right. And what I'm hearing is there's a whole range.
- [18:47]
B
Yeah. And I do want to caveat that one to say, like, let's talk about broadly what it's like to interact with family. There are some family members with whom we are trying to maintain relationships or build relationships. There are some family members or people in our lives who we have decided this isn't going to happen for whatever reason. You know, or maybe I'm trying to coexist with this person. But I know that we can't build a relationship, unfortunately. You know, you don't have to have the same way, the same approach with everyone. You will not have as much of an opportunity to build a relationship with someone if they don't know what it is you're needing or wanting in a relationship. That's not going to lead you to closer relationship with that one, probably. But you can still use it as a tool in certain instances if you need to protect yourself. Right. If you have an agreement with yourself. You know what? I know I'm never going to connect with uncle so. And so I know for myself, husband's.
- [19:46]
C
Going to be an uncle, that if.
- [19:48]
B
He starts talking about xyz, I'm out. And I'm not going to tell him.
- [19:52]
A
I'm not going to explain to uncle why this is happening because he's probably just going to start arguing with me. And like, that is not what I'm trying to do on. Exactly.
- [20:03]
B
So you get to choose where this work is worth it or not. Right. And you can experiment, you know, you could try it. But yeah, it's, it's okay to make that choice. It's okay to not be trying to fight for the same kind of relationship with everyone.
- [20:18]
A
I really love that distinction of considering the type of relationship you want to have with the person and what is going to be beneficial to forming that. Like if the reality is this is uncle so and so where you're just like, it's not gonna happen. You are going to have different boundaries with that person than, yeah, the person in your life that you actually still wanna get closer to. Like maybe, maybe you care about them deeply and you don't want this to be a barrier. So they do actually need to know how you feel about this and why this is upsetting to you and like really get to a place where they can respect that and they know that you care about them and want to maintain the relationship.
- [20:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [21:00]
C
I do want to hear specifically from you, Katrina, how to like word a boundary, like even something as tactical as that. So I have one example that I think has a lot of family dynamics and I think it'll be interesting for listeners. This is from the subreddit Estranged Adult Child Thanksgiving Conflict and Contemplating Boundaries I recently had a pretty big fight with my sister over Thanksgiving and now we are not talking. I'm not really talking to my parents either and unsure of how I'm going to navigate this situation in the future. She was upset with the way my husband told our 5 year old nephew to stop ordering us to do something immediately. She viewed it as we were trying to discipline her child when we view it as setting a boundary where where he shouldn't be able to order us to do something right away or clap in our faces. She acted like we had told him to go to his room or something.
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A
And that wasn't the case.
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C
All my husband did was tell him in a firm tone that if he didn't stop asking like that repeatedly, we wouldn't set up a toy for him until we came the next time. My sister has started to allow him to act like that and I think it might stem from the fact that she doesn't respect other people very much. A lot of the time she can be very critical, so I haven't invited her over to my house in probably three years. I do the same with my parents for the most part because they are also that way to a lesser degree. The only boundaries that they tend to accept are boundaries they agree with their own and mine, which they feel should be usually zero boundaries. My sister is in a toxic relationship and while that's her choice, I suspect given help set she was in proportion proportion to what happened. The situation is worse than she is telling me. My mom is trying to get me to just agree and try to avoid setting her off. I've noticed this seems to be a pattern on holidays where my sister gets incredibly angry at my mom or me for various reasons. We have a long history of problematic dynamics in my family and I've sought therapy for it in the past. My sister says we are not welcome in her home anymore unless I never say anything to her son about what he should or should not. Do I have to tell her so she can tell him? My plan for any issue was to always go to her and let her handle any issues since she is the parent, but she wasn't doing anything about it when it was happening in front of her. If I came to her about an issue, there's always a good chance she would turn on me for saying something at all. So I feel kind of stuck. She acts like I'm attacking her son and I'm not. I just don't want him to be mean or order around my husband or myself like he's in charge of us. She tried to say that my husband saying anything was demeaning, and that's just so out of touch with reality. I don't know how to take that. My husband, while he is a physically imposing person, is just about the most gentle person I've ever met. I've long suspected that the issues in my family would get so bad that I'd have to go no contact. And we are semi low contact as it is Currently, I'm just avoiding all of my family members because for the first time, I'm not really sure what to do. And I want to approach this in a way that has a decreased chance of worsening the situation. I really care about my nephews, and I want to be there for them as their aunt, but I don't want to feel like my husband and I are not allowed to have boundaries. I love my family and want to have relationships with them, but I just can't tolerate the way she is treating us, especially my husband. If I'm in the wrong here, I want to know. And I'm starting back up with therapy because I'm starting to question reality because how out of control the situation has become. Thanks for your perspectives on this.
- [24:31]
B
Yeah. All right. That definitely sounds tricky. I think my first impression and like, something that always heightens the trickiness is parenting, right. And kids and, like, differences in parenting styles and whether or not other people are allowed to, quote, unquote, parent the kids. Right? So to me, that feels like the sort of heightened point of conflict in this scenario. And like the person said, there's this inherent threat of, if you don't follow the way that I parent my kids, I will remove access to the kids. Right. Which is like, a huge threat for so many people, so many family members. And it sounds like it's a threat for this person who wants to stay connected to the family and her nephews. And it's also, like, an even bigger threat to, like, the grandparents and, like, wanting to fall in line there.
- [25:34]
C
And so in a way, the sister.
- [25:36]
B
Has set a pretty strong boundary, which is, if you interact with my kids in a way that I don't like, I will not let you be around the kids. I would say that's pretty extreme and maybe not appropriate. Right? Like, that is not. It's not leaving a lot of space for even for people to just, like, mess up. Most of the time the interactions are great, but it's like, you mess up or, like, go a little too far or say things in a way that you don't want to say to a kid because we're not perfect, then it seems like the consequence of that is, like, really severe. One of the questions here is.
- [26:16]
How much does she want to accommodate that boundary? Right? Because just so, just because you set a boundary doesn't mean it's, like, ethical or a good idea. I will just say that, like, it is a tool, but a tool can be used for lots of different reasons. She also said, even when I have tried to comply with this boundary or this rule, it doesn't work. Right? Like, I can't get her attention, or she doesn't take it seriously, or, you know, for whatever reason, it's not happening and she feels like she's still stuck and still gets in trouble. So on a strategic level, in a way, if she decides she still wants to try and respect this boundary and, like, maintain the relationship, she might actually have to turn the attention toward the relationship with the kid and disengaging from the kid in these instances, right? So in the instance of the original scenario, where it's like, the kid is bossing them around, and what they say is, hey, if you don't stop doing that, then we're not going to build you this toy. An alternative that might reduce the temperature and disengage from this dynamic would be kind of something like what I mentioned before is, like, I have to go to the bathroom. Just, like, get out of there, or I'm gonna go get a drink. You could strike a balance and say, like, that hurts my feelings. I don't like being talked to that way. I'm gonna go take a break, or something like that. It's not. It doesn't come with that additional piece of, like, we won't do this. Which, you know, for some is a natural consequence. For others might feel like a threat, especially if, like, their parent is very sensitive about things like that, or they don't want other people parenting their kids. But, like, that would be, like, a Middle ground or a way to disengage with the scenario while still not, like, compromising how you're being treated by this kid. And also, I think it does sort of send the message of, like, even implicitly, like, hey, if you act like that, I'm not going to hang out with you anymore, at least right now. So that's kind of the first thing that's coming to mind for me. I don't know. What do you think, Felicia?
- [28:39]
A
I mean, I think you nailed it. That was amazing. I love that perspective on it. The idea of just disengaging with the child, like, obviously that doesn't feel good. But if your options are not do anything or try to create a consequence for the child, and then that's going to mean that your sister, like, doesn't want you around, and she's very upset by that. Like, yeah, I mean, it doesn't leave you with tons of choices, but I think that's actually a really great choice to have. Like, it might even be a better choice than giving the consequence in some ways, because I can totally see how, as a parent, they might feel like someone else is, like, attempting to punish your child. And I think that, you know, humans should be able to say, like, what they will and won't do. Like, that's not. That isn't necessarily a punishment. That's just a consequence. That's just saying, like, hey, if you do this, I am going to do this, or I'm going to not do this. This didn't involve any, like, physical violence or abuse or neglect or anything like that. It's just like, I'm not going to do this if you're going to interact with me this way, which I think is very, very reasonable. And I can also see from a parent's perspective how that could feel like a punishment towards. So I do really like this third option of, like, I'm going to leave the situation. I'm going to excuse myself from it. Christy, you're a new parent. I know your baby is a baby baby, but, like, he's a baby baby.
- [30:05]
C
But you may have heard him a time or two during.
- [30:10]
This episode. Yeah, I don't know. I just. I didn't even really think about that, how sensitive it would be to have someone kind of encroaching on your parenting. You know, I imagine that would bring up a lot of protectiveness, But I'm a bit older when I had my kid, I think, compared to maybe other people who just had kids when they were younger. And I think for me, I'M just aware that some kids could just be annoying, you know, and that it's just like, how do you deal with an annoying kid? Like my mom, she was a kindergarten teacher until she retired recently. And, you know, she could just have lots of kids that, you know, maybe the parenting style doesn't align as well in, like, a classroom setting. Will say to be super, super nice and generous with that. But I wonder what's a better way for the sister to have set a boundary or what is the boundary that the actual poster should be doing?
- [31:10]
A
How can these two sisters, like, come together in a way? Like, what would be a way for them to work it out? Yeah.
- [31:17]
C
And I think with the posts that we read that we're only hearing one side of the story.
- [31:22]
B
Right.
- [31:22]
C
And it sounds like op, you know, has gone to therapy and is really trying to be conscientious and sensitive about all this stuff. But what would be a better boundary from the sister? How could she word it and maybe be a bit more. I don't want to use the word reasonable, but make a better choice to communicate? Better to uphold.
- [31:40]
B
Yeah.
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C
Better to uphold.
- [31:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. If she wasn't threatening, like, removing access to the child altogether, what would be another way to maybe have her wishes respected or maybe have a better outcome that wouldn't involve saying, you just can't be around my kid?
- [31:58]
B
Yeah. I mean, also, going back a little bit to your point about, like, your mom being a kindergarten teacher and different kids, you know, acting different ways. Like, I think it's true that in certain families, kids being kids gets kind of, like, privileged in a way where it's like, they are allowed certain behaviors just because they're kids. That wouldn't be acceptable between adults or older people. And I think to a certain degree that makes sense. They don't have the skills, but it can go too far. Where. Right. It's like, well, the kids are special and the kids are the most important. And, you know, of course, it's the holidays. They get whatever they want. They get their toys, they get their. Then it can morph into, like, disrespect for, like, any other individuals. Right. And so that's a tricky balance. And, like, every situation is going to be different. Let's assume for a second that that's not the case. Let's assume for a second we're coming from sister's perspective and the other sibling and her husband are being a little harsh or are overstepping, like, this sort of appropriateness of like, I don't know, you know, just Coming from her perspective for a minute. And this is hard because it means really getting clear about, like, how it is that you want to deal with things, but explaining what you would want instead.
- [33:23]
A
Right?
- [33:23]
B
Like, if there is a situation where the kid is acting up or getting a little too far in one direction, how would she deal with it? How does she want to see other people deal with it? You say, like, hey, in our household, if so and so is getting too rowdy, we say X. Or we maybe, for example, distract them with this other activity. Like, that's a very common way to, like, help with kids, right? Like, is to distract them from a behavior they're wanting to engage in by, like, bringing in another positive behavior.
- [33:56]
A
Right?
- [33:56]
B
So it's like, hey, if so and so is not being respectful. We remind them that in this house, you have to be nice to your family members or something. So, like, I think the other option would be to give, like, a positive action or request rather than just saying, like, don't do this, or, if you do this, then I won't do this.
- [34:20]
A
Right? Because it sounds like with these sisters, like, some trust has been lost. Like, in the case of the of op, like, they were given, like, instructions on what to do differently, but when they followed those instructions, like, their sister does not actually, like, get the child to stop doing what they're doing, it doesn't seem like there's actually anything being done with that information. So, yeah, I mean, this is really a tough situation for all parties. Like, just looking at it in total at this point, I'm really liking your suggestion a little bit ago about, like, just OP removing themselves from the situation if they can't come to an agreement with their sister on actually what will be done about this in the future. Because it really does seem like they're at an impasse. And it does sound really hard to be a person who is basically, you've been told.
- [35:15]
You can't take care of yourself. Essentially, you can't say you don't like something. You can't say, hey, don't do this to me. Because if you do that, you're crossing the line. And that just seems, like, not okay to me. Like, we, at the very least, we need to be able to say that.
- [35:31]
B
Yeah, it erases the idea that, like, adults have feelings and can be hurt by children. Right. And that doesn't mean that, like, adults, feelings should be prioritized. We know that that can lead to a whole host of issues. But any two people trying to learn to be in relationship have to be able to communicate in some way. Ouch, that hurts. Please don't do that. Right. Especially kids are like learning those things. So how, how do we get them to learn it without like creating some other dynamic that's like unhelpful.
- [36:04]
A
Right. Without creating shame on the one hand, which is like one direction that can go. Or like this. No, no boundaries. You get to do whatever you want. You're the center of the world and we all kind of defer to your needs and desires. Like those would be maybe like the two extreme ends of that. And neither of them are health for the child's development.
- [36:23]
B
Totally.
- [36:24]
C
So in this situation, would op set their own boundary?
- [36:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that the boundary, whether spoken or unspoken, is going to be like, hey, I hear that you want me to not interact with your kid in this way. And before you told me that I should just come to you if something is coming up to deal with it. I've noticed that's not happening. So I think next time I'll. I'll just disengage. I'll take a break. I won't talk back to her kid. Or like I feel like I can't do anything right and I'm stuck. So this is the way I'm gonna take care of it. If you wanted to talk to her directly about it, that's probably how I would say it. If you didn't want to again, you could just do the thing, right. And then take care of yourself. That's another piece that I wanted to touch on, which actually comes up in my worksheet a lot, which is like, once you remove yourself, what are you doing for yourself in that moment, right? So that you don't feel like you're just floundering and uncared for. Like, what are your backups? What are your little self care strategies? Who are you turning to to get support for the hurt that happened that maybe you can't like engage with right now? And how do you sort of like redirect your energy in those moments so that you can like keep going. Right. Or like make sure that you're feeling okay.
- [37:53]
A
I'm imagining something like a three by five card in your back pocket of.
- [37:59]
B
Like, you know, note on the cell phone.
- [38:02]
A
Yeah, exactly. Who am I gonna call? It could be, you know, having a friend that you know you can call that day even if they're not there. If you are going to this gathering with like a partner or another family member who you do have a good relationship with, it could be like that person that there's a signal where it's like, hey, I need some support. Like, can you step over here with me? You know, I feel like there are probably some strategies and some very, like, practical ways to go into this a bit more prepared. Because I love that, like, sometimes when you have to step away, you're actually really mad or you're really hurt, and you might be, like, fuming without a way to calm yourself down or a way to get support that can just. I mean, it can be hard to stop. Maybe you're spiraling. Maybe you're just having a really bad time. So having a plan for, like, if things get hard, like, what are you going to do to make yourself feel better?
- [38:55]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [38:56]
A
And that is probably something. I'm assuming that is in your worksheet, because I know you created a worksheet for folks to support them with, you know, boundaries and being around family or just, like, challenging situations over the holidays.
- [39:11]
B
Yes, indeed. Yep. That's on the worksheet for sure. Just giving some examples of what those things might be and then allowing you a little bit of space to, like, jot down your thoughts on what, you know, works for you.
- [39:24]
A
Amazing. We'll make sure that that's in the show notes so people can get access to that.
- [39:28]
B
It is called the Family Trip Boundaries Kit.
- [39:32]
A
I love that. Okay, so let's get the family Trip Boundaries Kit from Katrina. So, Katrina, we like to ask therapists, you know, what you really think about this topic. We know that as therapists, in sessions with our clients, like, sometimes we do have to, like, bite our tongue a little bit. Like, we're not supposed to, like, give advice and tell our clients, like, what to do. But I've heard from Christie that a lot of therapy clients are curious about what we're actually thinking in those moments. So I'm curious, when you've been working with clients and, like, maybe some of these family things have come up and you're trying to, you know, help them through it, what is it that you're really thinking but not actually saying out loud?
- [40:12]
B
I think sometimes when people, like, aren't ready to start drawing boundaries, of course I will sometimes want to push them a little harder to at least try it or, like, try it on a small scale.
- [40:25]
A
Right.
- [40:26]
B
Because until you try it, like, people are so afraid it's not going to work or it's going to blow up into a confrontation that they are really scared to try it. And that is reasonable. Like, they have probably seen examples of that happening around them, and there are probably at least some Little ways that you can practice this and try this that I really want to, like, push people to go for, right? Like, even if that is an internal fuck you, right? Like, even if it's like an internal boundary that you are enforcing within yourself, I call it an internal boundary, right? Where it's like, I am internally cutting myself off from this right now. I'm saying, yeah, internally, even. That is a step that sometimes people don't want to take. They want to keep engaging, and it's like, hey, pull out your phone and send a text. They might think it's a little rude, but this is.
- [41:22]
A
This is your form of resistance. This is the boundary that you can set today.
- [41:27]
B
5. Exactly. This is step 25. And I mean, sometimes I also just want to, like, be petty alongside. Or I have a reaction where I'm like, totally. Oh, fuck no. Like, get the Halloween rooms out. Nra. Resist, right? Until I, like, hear the whole situation. And, like, you know, that is, like.
- [41:45]
A
Maybe one of the hardest things as a therapist, when you want nothing more than to be like, fudge them.
- [41:51]
B
All of them.
- [41:51]
A
And then you're like, no, not my role, not my job. I'm supposed to have a different perspective. I'm not like, this person's big sister. I'm their therapist, right?
- [42:02]
B
And I think sometimes, you know, we like to get a little close to the edge, depending on what the personality and the, like, interaction is between us. But, like, I want to have people, like, figure out what their balance is and what their, like, fuck this, I'm getting out of here is not what mine would be that's so important. So that's kind of the reason.
- [42:23]
A
So that's why we're not just, like, giving you advice all the time. If you're listening to this and you're like, why won't you just tell me? Like, this is why. Because ultimately, like, you have to live with your boundaries. You have to live with, you know, the decisions you make, and it really cannot come from your therapist being like, you know what we're gonna do? You're gonna do this and you're gonna do that and fuck all them. Like, no, it has to be from you. So that's why Christy and Oliver, you know, like.
- [42:53]
Therapy seekers, we're not gonna tell you what to do.
- [42:57]
B
The other thing is, like, if you follow the one where I would say, hell, no, but it's not actually your hell no, then it's not really going to resonate. You're not really going to do it. It's not going to benefit you in.
- [43:08]
A
The long run, and it could harm the therapeutic relationship. Like, I know that's not the topic right now, but, like, I'm thinking about the moments when a therapist might take the bait or might get carried, you know, caught up in their own vision for their client. And then later on, you know, the client maybe doesn't feel as much like that was their choice or they weren't as connected to their agency in that process. And so it's tempting. I totally get why clients, like, really want to know what therapists think, but there's also, like, a downside to therapists not acting like therapists, because at the end of the day, we want this to be a space where you can come and, like, feel empowered to make your own decisions. And sometimes that means being ambivalent for a while. You know, sometimes it means that, like, you're not sure. And again, you might be, like, desperately wanting your therapist to just tell you what to do. But the ambivalence is part of the process. Hate to say it. It's the truth.
- [44:03]
B
Sometimes, though, I will say I do love offering what I call the buffet, which is like, laying out examples of how one might react to this.
- [44:12]
C
And you're like, mine is snuck in there.
- [44:15]
B
Is there, Is there? Some people might think this in this situation, but you also might be here, or you might be here, like, do any of those resonate? So it's like, I get to, like, Katrina.
- [44:28]
C
That's some, like, therapy ninja right there.
- [44:31]
A
Like, so if you're Katrina's actual client and you're hearing this, like, now, you're. Whenever that happens, you're going to be like, okay, wait, which one is Katrina's?
- [44:39]
B
There's a real.
- [44:41]
A
At the carnival, you're like, which one is it?
- [44:45]
B
Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God.
- [44:46]
A
Well, this has been so good, Katrina, and it couldn't have come at a better time. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom and just. Yeah, like, a really grounded response to our examples. And I feel like this is such the perfect episode for people to get to listen to right now.
- [45:03]
C
So really grateful. Thank you for being here.
- [45:05]
B
It's been great. Yeah. Thank you for having me.
- [45:08]
C
Well, if people want to find you, Katrina, and learn more about your work, where can they go? What should they do?
- [45:15]
B
My therapy practice is called Passion Fruit Therapy, and so you can find my website at www.passionfruit therapy.com. so I have a practice in Oakland, California, where I see mostly individuals and couples, and I see folks online throughout California, and I can see folks in person in the Bay Area and I have availability. So if anybody is interested, please go to my website. And also on the website there is a banner where you can get the Family Trip Boundaries Kit and you just sign up at the link and it'll get sent to you.
- [45:56]
A
Amazing. We'll also make sure that that's in our show notes. All right, well, thank you so much everyone for tuning in. We're wishing you happy holidays filled with love and peace and boundaries. The perfect kind of boundaries for you. Yeah, exactly.
- [46:09]
C
Yeah.
- [46:10]
A
That's all for this week's episode.
- [46:12]
C
If this conversation resonated with you, the best way to support us is to follow, rate and review the show. Wherever you're listening right now. Are you watching on YouTube? Subscribe and drop us a comment.
- [46:23]
A
Have a friend in mind who could use the advice in this episode? Text them the podcast. You can also connect with us on Instagram @wyttpodcast. We want to hear from you, so slide into our DMs with your mental health questions. They just might be featured on a future episode.
- [46:39]
C
What YOUR THERAPIST THINKS is hosted by me, Christy Plantinga and Felicia Keller Boyle. This show is brought to you by BestTherapist.com, a therapist directory that vets therapists so you can focus on fit, not quality. You can find your best therapist@besttherapist.com Our.
- [46:56]
A
Show is produced by the team at Podvision.
- [46:59]
C
See you next time.