Kenny Levine (3:32)

Christy. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Christy Plantinga (3:35)

You don't shy away from what couples counselors often refer to as the high conflict relationships, people who are on the brink of divorce, who are actively in a divorce, things like that. Can you tell us a little bit more about your experience with with some high conflict relationships? And then I'm going to get into the contempt.

Kenny Levine (3:54)

If you were to ask me what is the main thing that I do in my work. It's helping people improve their communication in order to resolve conflict and the conflict that's getting in their way of having the kinds of relationships that they want to have, whether that's at work, whether that's in their primary relationship or with their families or even with their children. So sometimes you sort of see my work as spanning the lifespan of a relationship. I mean, we hope that we're going to get in a relationship and that's going to be our lifelong journey. But I sometimes do like premarital counseling. So I see couples for premarital counseling at the very beginning of their relationship. I see couples in the midst of their relationship and I also work through separation and divorce and co parenting after divorce. This is work that a lot of therapists shy away from doing. Court involved work scares a lot of therapists, but I just see it as really important. This is one of the hardest times in people's lives and it's really hard for them to get effective support. So while it's challenging work, it can also be really satisfying, like just improving our communication skills and being willing to change the way we talk to each Other can radically change the way we feel in these interactions with other people.

Christy Plantinga (5:17)

I'm really excited to hear more about that from you, because as I was going through all these different, you know, questions and experiences that people are sharing online, usually when contempt comes up, a lot of the comments and the kind of sentiment around a relationship is like, it's done. It's too late, you know, making your plans for your divorce or your breakup or whatever. So that's absolutely the sentiment that I was picking up on online. And to you, it sounds like, hey, it might not be too late.

Kenny Levine (5:49)

I would argue that just about every relationship has contempt happening between the two partners at some. In fact, conflict is normal in relationships. Even identical twins who have almost identical genomes and backgrounds and tend to have very similar values, even they have conflict. Conflict is caused by the presence of two or more human brains. So whenever we have that, there's going to be conflict. Not all conflict is created equal, though. Some conflict can be constructed. It can be productive. It can be an opportunity to build greater understanding. Other kinds of conflict can be really destructive to a relationship and can cause hurt feelings. And contempt is one of those kinds of conflict interactions. Every relationship has what the Gottmans call the four horsemen, which are criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt. These come out in all of us, but I think of it sort of like eating a nutritious diet. Like, as long as we're eating, you know, healthy foods that give our bodies what they need most of the time, the occasional pizza, like, that's not going to impact our overall health. And the same is true with these conflict interactions. As long as we can kind of hit it more often than not, use the gentle startups more often than not, we're probably going to be okay. So don't worry. Relationship is done for just because we experience contempt. And there are antidotes for each of these four Horsemen that you can learn in your relationship and improve your conflict interactions.

Christy Plantinga (7:34)

I think it's very important to get definitions down when we talk about these different things. So, Kenny, what is contempt, and what does it look like in relationships?

Kenny Levine (7:46)

So contempt is an expression of. Of superiority on the part of one partner in order to sort of put down their other partner and make them feel inferior. It can take different forms. It could be eye rolling. It could be facial expressions, laughing derisively at something your partner has said. It could be name calling and put downs. I mean, I'm a really sarcastic person. I find sarcasm funny. But sarcasm can also be really biting and cruel. And that is also another form of contempt.

Christy Plantinga (8:22)

Hmm.

Felicia Keller Boyle (8:23)

I also think about contempt as a feeling like an internal feeling toward another person. Would you agree?

Kenny Levine (8:29)

Definitely. First of all, I would say that all feelings have an action urge. If we're angry, we might want to yell. If we're depressed, we might want to withdraw. When we are contemptuous, our action urge is to put the other person down. And where does this feeling come from? Usually this feeling comes feeling deeply unappreciated, unheard, unseen in our relationship. And if we're feeling that unheard and unseen, what we want is to have that feeling understood. And what it seems to us in our minds is that I'm going to make you feel less than me so that you, you can understand how less than you are making me feel. You know, the person who is expressing contempt really wants greater understanding, but unfortunately, that expression of contempt does just the opposite. And it makes it impossible for their partner to really show support and empathy for them.

Christy Plantinga (9:34)

Yeah. Do you have any follow up questions? I mean, because I know Felicia as a couples counselor as well, I'm assuming all therapists have their own, you know, approach to these sorts of things. How do you approach contempt in a couple's counseling situation?

Felicia Keller Boyle (9:50)

Well, unlike Kenny, I don't work with high conflict couples. So I would probably, if that's really at the forefront for them, if they've gotten into this place where there's just so much contempt and it's really hard to find the connection and the love and the appreciation, I feel like they need to go to somebody who really understands high conflict.

Christy Plantinga (10:14)

Go to Kenny, in other words.

Felicia Keller Boyle (10:16)

Yeah, go to Kenny. Exactly. Go to Kenny. No, I love your explanation of this, Kenny. I think it's really, really useful to think about the different ways that contempt can show up in relationships. Like the different behaviors that can come out of this feeling state of contempt. I love how you talked about how the person who's feeling contemptuous really wants to be understood. That's such a nice. Honestly, that's such a generous and nice way to understand it. One of the things that I would say to my couples, all the. We all have like these sensitivities. We all have these core wounds and they get activated. And it's really good if you can learn how to ask your partner for reassurance. And to the other person, it's really good if you can learn to see that as not an attack on you, but rather a wound somebody is coming into the relationship with that is just like part of, not like part of their makeup, as if they were born with it, but part of the ouches that they received throughout their early years. And it really affected how they see themselves, the world, other people. And so if we cannot take that personally, we can show up for a partner in a way that's like, oh, that thing is happening for you. I love you. And if the person who's having the ouch can express that in a way that isn't attacking but is like, hey, you know that thing that happens for me where I start to think this and that, and like, when you did this, that's what I started thinking. And, like, is that what you meant? Like, if we can begin to take it all less personally, which is so hard to do when you're in an intimate relationship. But, like, it really, really helps if you can take it a bit less personally and really just see, like, this person is trying to just get help with that, you know?

Kenny Levine (11:59)

And you know, what. What makes the biggest difference in whether or not somebody's going to be able to do that or not is sort of how the relationship has been going over time. Because when the relationship has been going poorly over time and you see your partner angry or upset, you are much more likely internalize it and think they're pissed at me and nothing of you is good enough. Or, you know, something along those lines. If the relationship has generally been going pretty well and you see your partner's grumpy or upset, you might think they must be having a bad day. Maybe they're stressed out at work. So in the Kotman framework, this is called positive sentiment override or negative sentiment override. And that's sort of the filter through which we are seeing the relationship. Are we really, like, tuned into every negative thing and taking each negative thing really personally, or are we much more tuned into the wonderful things that our partner is doing for us? And you sort of contextualize that, the bumps in the road in the relationship within that more positive context.

Felicia Keller Boyle (13:04)

So it sounds like there's really two parts here. There's, you know, you as a proactive partner, trying to not just, like, do nice things for your partner, but be a kind person, being a loving partner. And then it also takes the other person being on the lookout essentially, for those positive things and those admirable aspects of your partner and really appreciating those. So it's. It's both. Right.

Kenny Levine (13:29)

So, yeah, I mean, within the Gottman method framework, we have the full Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which I talked about a little while ago. Each of those Horsemen has an antidote. Three of Them have a really sort of simple one part antidote. It's a gentle startup. It's taking responsibility. The one horseman that has a sort of more complex two part antidote is contempt. It has.

Christy Plantinga (13:56)

Damn it. Yeah, we started with the hard one.

Kenny Levine (14:01)

We did start with a hard one. But Kalish, what you were just getting to because the sort of short term immediate antidote is using a gentle startup. It's asking for what you want or need for a positive language, not what you want to have stop acting, but what you would like to see. So it's really getting better at putting, putting at identifying your feelings and your needs and putting those into words. So that's part one. But larger long term strategy for fixing contempt in a relationship is building fondness and appreciation between the two people. What's really important. Like I said before, all relationships have conflict. And in fact a lot of research has shown that most couples have conflict at roughly the same frequency whether they're happy or unhappy. What's different is how that conflict shows up. Like, is it full of the four horsemen? In just as much. What is the ratio of conflict interactions to really warm, positive, connected, affirming interactions?

Felicia Keller Boyle (15:12)

Interesting.

Kenny Levine (15:13)

This is true not just in romantic relationships. This is true between boss and friends of employees and parents and children. We have to have a 5 to 1 ratio of positive interactions to conflict interactions in order to feel like we're just everything we do is wrong in this relationship. So one of the things that we do is really work on boosting those positive and warm interactions and that that's like putting money in an emotional piggy bank and it builds resilience and your relationship. So when there is contempt or when there's a harsh startup, you've got some resiliency and you've got some goodwill that you can draw upon for that interaction.

Felicia Keller Boyle (15:55)

Yeah. It makes me think that when you have all of these positive interactions with your partner and then they do something that doesn't feel so good, your story is still like, oh, I love my partner and they're having a hard time or they're not being very nice right now, as opposed to maybe there aren't that many positive interactions and most of them are negative. And so you've built up this story in your mind that your partner's actually this terrible person. And so when they do something that you don't like, you're like, see, there they go again. This person's terrible.

Kenny Levine (16:23)

Right. The example I usually use with clients when I'm sort of describing this concept is like imagine you Are in a relationship with somebody who has a habit of leaving the cabinet doors in the kitchen open. Now, when you walk into the kitchen and you see half a cabinet door doors are open, are you saying they do so many awesome things for me, there's just one little thing they can't remember to do. I'm just gonna close the kitchen.

Christy Plantinga (16:55)

So adorable.

Kenny Levine (16:58)

Are you saying that I can't. Does not care. How many times have I told them to close these cap like that? Is that positive sentiment override versus negative sentiment override? How are we framing. What is the story that we are building in our heads around these incidents that happen in relationships?

Felicia Keller Boyle (17:25)

Have you guys seen those? This was like a thing going around the Internet a little while ago where it was like, my partner leaving treats for me around the house. And it's just a person walking into a room with laundry everywhere, and they're just like.

Christy Plantinga (17:40)

And they go.

Felicia Keller Boyle (17:41)

They start picking up. They're like, oh, she's so cute. Right? That's exactly what this reminds me of. But it's like, if you have so much goodwill in the relationship where you're like, my partner loves me. They support me. They support my goals. They care about my dreams, which I know is a part of the Gottman method. Like, really being invested in your partner's dreams and wanting to support those, like, if you feel these ways, if they do things for you that you feel, believe are meaningful, that you really appreciate. It's hard to imagine now sometimes, but it is possible, conceivable to walk into a room where they've totally left all the cabinets open, and you're like, oh, they're so cute. Because you're like, I love them so much. Because all of these other things are so positive.

Kenny Levine (18:20)

Right? Ultimately, whether the cabinet doors are open in the kitchen or closed in the kitchen is probably not really what is going to determine whether your relationship feels happy or not, right?

Felicia Keller Boyle (18:31)

But it's like, those are the things you would complain about to your friends and be like, I can't believe this asshole. They're always leaving the da, da, da open. And it's like, that's not really the problem.

Kenny Levine (18:41)

I joke. Like, people think that, you know, if it's good at couples counseling for, like, infidelity and, you know, absconding, money and affair. Like, I have literally had more couples counseling sessions around how to load the dishwasher. Then, like, certainly kitchen appliance. And, you know, probably most.

Felicia Keller Boyle (19:03)

I believe it. I believe it 100%. Kitchens are always like, kitchen.

Christy Plantinga (19:09)

It is the room where everything falls apart. It's the crux of the conflicts in a relationship is the kitchen. One thing I want to clear up before we get into some of these posts on Reddit. I see contempt and resentment being essentially equated to each other in a lot of this content. Thoughts.

Kenny Levine (19:32)

So at least within the Gottman framework, like, we could be experiencing the emotion of resentment, but still be, you know, interacting with our partner in a kind way. I mean, those are topics who end up in couples counseling. And in fact, when I was an undergrad at UNC Capital, I had the opportunity to work with a researcher at UNC, Dr. Carol Respolt. Unfortunately, she's no longer with us. She published research with the Gottmans, and her big area of research was called the investment model of relationships. And this was like cutting edge. This was in the early 90s. And she could predict with like 97 or maybe more accuracy whether or not a relationship would still be together in five years just by gathering some data and crunching it. And the investment model is really simple. It's just three variables that determine whether or not a relationship is going to stay together. And they're all obvious. How satisfied and how happy are you in this relationship? How invested are you? Do you own a house together? Do you have kids together? Do you have a ceremony in front of everyone you love? So the higher the satisfaction and the higher the investment, the more likely the relationship is to stay together. But the third one is reverse scored. The third is how favorably do you view your alternatives to this relationship? And the more you view your alternative system relationship, the more likely you are to leave it. But when we were gathering the data for this, and this was like early 90s, we're talking VHS tastes. So we would record these couple interactions and we would ask the couple to have a conversation about something they disagreed about, have a conflict discussion, and we would record it. And then I would code those videos for different interactions. And the first go round, I would do it completely with the sound off. And I was only looking for, for eye rolling, smearing, turning away, all of these sort of visual signs of contempt because they were so predictive of relationship satisfaction and whether or not this relationship was going to stay together.

Christy Plantinga (21:58)

Whoa.

Felicia Keller Boyle (21:59)

Wild.

Christy Plantinga (21:59)

That's so interesting. And I love that it's like sound off. It's just body language.

Kenny Levine (22:03)

Yeah, that's.

Christy Plantinga (22:04)

That's so interesting. I. Yeah, I love all, like the qualitative studies, our last example, if we can get to it, that talks about resentment pretty closely to contempt. Is it fair for people to think of these two things as pretty similar, I guess, is one thing I think that'd be helpful.

Kenny Levine (22:24)

I think that resentment is probably an emotion, part of an emotion that people might experience when there is contempt in the relationship. But here, here's something to think about within the Gotman framework. We're not dealing with one person's emotions or the other emotions, person's emotions. What we're working on is what's going on between them. When I'm working with couples, I talk about contempt as something that is happening between them. It is not a single person's emotion. So what we are working on when we are doing this kind. This type of couples counseling is what's going on between. Whereas I would think of resentment as an emotion that somebody is experiencing that I would want them to put into words. I would want that. So instead of saying, you know, you're such a moron, I would want to encourage the person to say, I'm feeling really resentful because, you know, I'm feeling.

Christy Plantinga (23:29)

Like you're a moron. Just kidding. Don't do that.

Kenny Levine (23:35)

Because we came together at, you know, the end of the day after not seeing each other all day. I didn't notice you looking at me, and I felt ignored. And I would really love it if you would come in and give me a hug and you can. Resentment is an emotion that we gotta be able to talk about. Resentment and anger and frustration. These are emotions that we all have at some point in a relationship. We just need to be able to talk about them constructively so that we can get understanding rather than accumulating relationship damage and hurt feelings.

Christy Plantinga (24:15)

Okay, that's super, super helpful. Long story short, resentment is kind of internal. That's a person's more individual experience. Contempt is the dynamic between exactly a couple. Okay, a great student, obviously have to be. Have to get the A plus, Christy. Thank you. I like this example, this post, because it gets into the, I think, the hopelessness side of things. So this is in the subreddit, ask women over 30, is there any coming back from contempt and resentment in a marriage? It's me. I'm the one with contempt and resentment. My husband's behavior has inspired those emotions. And I can't decide if I'm hopeful that he'll change. And he says he will, but doesn't. You know the story. Many, but not all of my friends and my mom think I should give him more time and see what happens. But my therapist seems confident that even if he changes, there's no coming back from what I'M feeling. Some days I feel like there's hope, some days I don't. And then she gives some examples. He was laid off twice in the last few years. He's spent a combined 12 of the last 16 months jobless. He she pays for nearly everything, but she's in debt. He says the reason is depression, but isn't working all that hard to treat it. So it sounds like some maybe financial stuff is present as well. So she doesn't go into too many specifics on it, but there's just a little context for it.

Kenny Levine (25:41)

So my first response is, this is why when I'm providing couples counseling, if I, I want to refer somebody for individual counseling too. I'm really careful about which individual therapist I send them to. Because a lot of individual therapists inadvertently undermined their client relationships. Because we're empaths as therapists, we identify with our clients being and we want to validate it. And when we're an individual therapist, we are not getting the whole picture. We are only getting our individual clients narrative about what's happening. And when we are expressing contempt, we are usually completely unaware that we are expressing contempt. So describing her husband's behavior, her behavior is also a part of this dynamic. It becomes this cycle. Because when you know, he's wanting understanding, but he's expressing it as contempt that he's not seeing what he's doing. And then she responds emotionally to what he's doing. But from his perspective, there's just this emotional response out of nowhere and it becomes this like vicious contempt cycle. These are not individual therapy issues. And it really can become problematic for a relationship when an individual therapist who doesn't know what's going on in the entire relationship system is offering these diagnoses or these predictions about the future. Look, I'm a couples counselor. I don't predict whether people can or should stay together. Like if you come to couples counseling and you want to work, I'm here to work with you. But I can't tell people whether they should stay together or not, that, that this is their lives. I'm not in this relationship. So I would say is maybe if what's going on is you're really dissatisfied in your relationship, maybe stop the individual therapy. Let's maybe see, don't see the same person. See somebody else for couples that you have not been for individual therapy, I.

Felicia Keller Boyle (28:06)

Would agree with that. I, I'd be curious with this person to see if the partner is open to couples therapy. And I think at a certain point, if you're In a place where you're saying, hey, this is a problem in our relationship, I need things to change. The person isn't taking action on their own, they're unwilling to go to therapy, then I think you might get at a point where you're like, yeah, like, I really tried and they're not willing to work on this with me. And at that point I would say, like, yeah, you, you did your best. And it also sounds like this person is agreeing to do things that they don't really want to do, which for me creates the experience of resentment. Like, that's how I understand. Resentment is when you are doing something that you don't want to do. And maybe you're not expressing your true feelings and preferences or boundaries around this, like you're saying yes to something, when in actuality you are angry, you are developing contempt towards them, you are starting to think bad things about them, like all to avoid maybe disappointing them, having them get angry at you, dealing with that conflict. So rather than dealing with it head on and saying like, you know, I'm sorry, I'm going out to dinner, if you want to join me, you're going to need to pay for your own meal, but I'm not paying for yours. Like, rather than saying that or like having a deeper conversation about it, just continuing to pay for meal after meal, after meal, or continuing to, you know, pay for the whole mortgage or whatever without saying anything. That is what leads to resentment. But it sounds like this person is saying something, but they're still not getting the result. The partner's not changing.

Kenny Levine (29:39)

That is right on. I have nothing to add. What I think when I hear about a relationship like the one this Reddit post is describing is this probably is not get better without really the support. Like, this is when it is time. In fact, it's time to get into, really into relationship counseling before this.

Felicia Keller Boyle (29:57)

Way before, but way before.

Kenny Levine (30:00)

But, you know, start where you are. If this is where you are, couples counseling can definitely help.

Felicia Keller Boyle (30:06)

I think that's really important for people to hear. Like oftentimes people wait until they are so contemptuous of each other, where they are on the brink of divorce. And before then it can be like, oh, well, things aren't really that bad. Da da da da da. And it's really easy to kick the can down the road because, you know, it's time intensive, it's money intensive, it's vulnerable. Like oftentimes things aren't quote unquote, that bad. But then you end up in these situations where so much resentment has built up. So much contempt has built up. And it makes it that much harder to actually make that progress. So I really want people to understand if you're in a couple relationships, you have the inkling that it's not quite working. Don't wait to go get help, go do it now. And the benefit isn't just that you don't break up, it's that you have a better relationship in the meantime. And like, this is one of the most important relationships in your life. Like, why not have it be the best it could be, right?

Kenny Levine (31:05)

And that's why I really love the premaril counseling. I love it when couples come in or like, yeah, we're just having misunderstandings. We want to build a relationship that's based on strong communication, that is the time to come in. And it starts off with a very thorough assessment that involves a sort of extra long 80 minute session with the two people together and then individual shorter 45 minute sessions with each of them and then they complete is called the Gottman Relationship Checkup. It's a series of surveys developed by the Gottman Institute. And once we've completed this assessment process, we get this really clear sense of what are the strength areas in their relationship, what are the challenge areas of their relationship. And for every challenge area, we have evidence based interventions to help shore that up, including contempt. So do this early, like find out early on what are the areas of your relationship that you need to strengthen in order to have a really happy, satisfying relationship so that that's what your relationship can look like. And don't wait to come in after all this damage has happened.

Christy Plantinga (32:23)

Yeah, I think it's a great thing too. Like, my husband and I have been in couples counseling and I love our relationship. I think it's very strong, it always has been. But I know that there were things that were kind of building up that I was like, this would devastate me if anything were to happen. And not even just like, of course, the inevitable, like divorce or breakup. Just if I know that he isn't as happy as I want him to be, that will devastate me. So let's get on this. And that's really why we started a couple's counseling. And I love talking about it because a lot of times people, I think there's still that kind of gut reaction from people where it's like, oh, are you okay? You know, like, what's going on? It's like, we're good, like, we're really good, but I want us to be even better. Because I just want him to be so happy. And, like, that's why we did it, you know?

Kenny Levine (33:10)

That's awesome. That's exactly the right way to do it. Again, I'm a little blown away that you spend money to spend time with therapists.

Felicia Keller Boyle (33:17)

Given how much time you already spend.

Christy Plantinga (33:21)

With therapists, I literally cannot get enough.

Kenny Levine (33:23)

So, like, you're also pregnant. You're going to be having a child. That's also a really stressful time for many relationships. You are going to have your individual relationship with this newborn and then toddler and then child, and it's, you know, like, that's a whole new dynamic. And, you know, having a solid foundation for your relationship before you get to that point is, I think, one of the best investments anybody can make.

Christy Plantinga (33:53)

Yeah. You know, we talk about, like, the kitchen, the dishwasher. I think parenthood is probably another one of those things where it's, like, it's so easy to, you know, do the kind of the. The mental math, right? Where it's like, well, I changed the diaper 70% of the time today, and you're not, you know, it's like, I can only imagine all of the. The resentment that would build internally, and then, of course, that develops into this.

Kenny Levine (34:15)

You know, and plus, like, that child is watching the two of you and learning to resolve conflict.

Felicia Keller Boyle (34:23)

No pressure. They're always watching.

Kenny Levine (34:28)

You want to be modeling for your. For your kid, because that turns out to be really important for. For their lives. And your child's future partner's relationship will probably really. Thank you.

Christy Plantinga (34:43)

Yeah. My parents always. They never fought in front of us. They never would. Like, we never, ever, ever saw them argue because they would never do it in front of us. They would always just, like, you know, top on it, and then they would do it later.

Kenny Levine (35:00)

Put on this theater of the united front for your kids. You have the argument in the garage, and then you come back in, and you're like, we are totally aligned. This is the way.

Felicia Keller Boyle (35:11)

What is your perspective on that, by the way, Kenny? Like, what is your perspective on couples arguing in front of their children and their family sometimes?

Christy Plantinga (35:21)

I don't know.

Kenny Levine (35:21)

Really depends on what your conflict interactions look like. If you are showing understanding and if you are modeling constructive conflict resolution, great. But if you're getting super emotionally dysregulated and you're, you know, insulting each other and expressing contempt, I mean, I don't want to see that in your relationship at all. But if it's gonna happen, please, not in front of your children.

Felicia Keller Boyle (35:49)

Okay, so conflict in Front of children. Fine. If you're doing it constructively, respectfully, healthfully even. Healthfully. Yeah. Which is hard to do when you're.

Christy Plantinga (36:04)

When you're like activated when you're upset.

Felicia Keller Boyle (36:07)

Yeah, exactly. It's so hard to do.

Christy Plantinga (36:10)

I would love to get into our next post, which is really about. And I know that Kenny, you're like, I can't make this call for people. I'm not in your relationship. But.

Felicia Keller Boyle (36:19)

But we're gonna ask you anyway.

Christy Plantinga (36:20)

We're gonna ask you anyway. We're gonna force you to tell us.

Felicia Keller Boyle (36:23)

What you really think.

Christy Plantinga (36:25)

But this is basically, you know, subreddit marriage when to throw in the towel. At what point is a marriage unsalvageable? We are at it again. Days upon days of arguing and cold shoulders and bad attitudes. Been together 15 years. The same issues that have been happening the majority of our relationship never stop, go away, change. Intimacy is non existent. There is too much rage and contempt and inability to have a productive discussion around our problems. It's so bad sometimes. But then there's the flip side of normal days and happy times and parenting our two kids under four, enjoying beach days and camping and laughing together. There's happiness and potential in so many more moments with the kids yet to come. But it's always after they go to bed and I know something's off. We haven't had sex in a week or two and it will come up when we fight. I will be 40 this year and we just had our 15 year anniversary and I'm so scared of waking up 15 years from now having this exact same experience considering therapy. But divorce is heavily on the table and I'm so confused. I know this is vague and a lot of info is missing, but otherwise I'll be here all night. I guess my thoughts questions are at what point is a marriage unsalvageable? At what point is it not even worth going to therapy? At what point does the bad outweigh the good? At what point is it better for the children and everyone else to just go our separate ways?

Kenny Levine (37:52)

This is a really tough question to answer. And yes, I'm going to say nobody answer this for you. This is your life and your Dang. I read you know, these folks had kids together. It sounds like they've been together for a while. They've invested a lot in this relationship and you know, I think it would be a real shame to end the relationship without really trying. Now the single thing that is going to tank the efficacy efficacy of couples counseling more than anything else is if the whole time that you're in couples counseling, this is just like a hoop that you're jumping through so that you can get to the divorce, guess what? Couples counseling not going to help you. So what I would say is let's take divorce off the table for six months. Let's table the idea of divorce and put in an all out effort for six months to see if we can improve this relationship. And then let's reassess, let's reassess in six months and see if things look better than they did before. And if they don't look better, that's really important information. But if you end the relationship without having done that, are you going to be wondering whether or not it could have been salvaged to try it harder? I wouldn't want to be living with that either. You know, look, there are obviously times when it's essential to end a relationship. Maybe there's been domestic violence, maybe there's been coercive control. You know, there are all sorts of really problematic things that can happen in relationships. What I'm hearing in this person's description is a lot of relationship dissatisfaction that could be proved with good couples counseling.

Felicia Keller Boyle (39:46)

Yeah, I agree here. I feel like a lot of sadness for this person because it does seem like they can remember a lot of the good moments with their partner and they really enjoy certain aspects of the relationship even now. But they're just so tired, it sounds like, and so frustrated with this. So I love the idea of just tabling the idea of divorce for, for a certain amount of time, really getting both of you bought into being in therapy together to trying to improve the relationship. But again, it takes both people being bought in. And I think that's kind of the first step is like, can both people get there? Because if they can't get there and there's no other plan for change, then there's really no reason to expect that we're going to see an improvement over time.

Kenny Levine (40:36)

Yeah. In terms of what we observe in couple interactions, contempt is one of the strongest predictors of relationship dissolution. And the other very, very strong predictor of divorce is thoughts of divorce. When you have it, thoughts of divorce, you are much more likely to end your relationship. So one of the first things I do when I start seeing a couple is getting a sense like, do you have just like you were saying, like both feet in? Because unless we have both feet in for this work, we're just spinning our wheels. This is not going to be helpful in the Gottman framework. Like if you, if you Ask Julie Gottman. And I've seen her ask this, when is it time to give up on couples counsel? And her response is, when the fondness and admiration situation, system is dead in the relationship, then it might be time to give up. But in this Reddit post, she, like, still, you could.

Felicia Keller Boyle (41:35)

There's still those moments, still those moments.

Kenny Levine (41:38)

Of connection and closeness and fondness and things that she treasures. Prophets. So I think there's a lot of good work that could be done on this relationship.

Christy Plantinga (41:48)

Yeah, there's hope.

Felicia Keller Boyle (41:50)

Yeah, there's definitely hope. And I also think, you know, as an individual, you have to decide if you're willing to spend the energy and the effort.

Christy Plantinga (41:59)

Because if.

Felicia Keller Boyle (41:59)

If she's writing this and she's thinking, I'm so tired of this, and, like, it's not working, and yes, we have these good times, but, like, they're so few and far between, she has to decide, am I willing to put the energy into this? And I think also, like, regardless of the outcome, regardless of how my partner shows up, like, am I willing to show up? Because I think another thing that can happen in couples is it's like, well, I'll do it if you do it, you know, And I obviously, like, you do both need to be bought into improving the relationship. But I also think you can't really hold back waiting for the other person to prove themselves. You've kind of got to decide if you're going to go all in and really try to make it work.

Kenny Levine (42:42)

That is an excellent early discussion to have in one of your first couples counseling sessions, if not the first couple counseling session.

Christy Plantinga (42:50)

It sounds like with couples specifically, and I'm sure this is, of course true with individual therapy as well, but because again, it's two people, makes sense. Because with individuals, it's you making that decision. Maybe you're coming in with some skepticism about therapy or, you know, I'm too broken to be fixed. Like, that kind of stuff that, you know, one person can have. But it sounds like when there are two people really just kind of deciding to do this and deciding on almost a mindset together going into it is a huge predictor of the success.

Kenny Levine (43:21)

Yeah, I mean, that's not just for therapy. That's, like, for everything in life. Right. We can do the things that we commit to doing, you know, and if we don't commit to it, it's really hard to get to the outcome that we want.

Christy Plantinga (43:33)

I like the hopeful message of this because I do think, like, I imagine in a relationship, once you say the D word, divorce I imagine that that's so easy to just follow, keep following that potential eventuality.

Felicia Keller Boyle (43:50)

And it can get used as a, like, bludgeon, you know, it can get used in really harmful ways. And I think it's such a big thing to get divorced to end a relationship.

Christy Plantinga (44:02)

And it's not.

Felicia Keller Boyle (44:03)

I'm not here judging people who do. Like, I think it's fine if you need to. And it's not something to throw around thoughtlessly. It's not something to throw around in a rage. I think it's something that needs to be done in a way that's quite serious. If it really is something you're considering and you need to talk to your partner about it, ideally it's not going to come out because they left the cabinets open, ideally. And I know everyone's doing their best. We're not here to, like, shame people who are in really terrible relationships and are exhausted and suffering, like, and shame you for getting mad. Like, we hear that we're talking about, like, ideal situations when folks want to work on their relationships and can both come to the table. But we know it's tough out there, and if you're in a. If you're in a, like, really bad relationship. Yeah, we see you.

Kenny Levine (44:59)

That said, I think sometimes one of the barriers to starting couples counseling is maybe one person in the relationship is really motivated for couples counseling, and they sense that their partner is not motivated, and they think, if my partner's not motivated, this won't help. Well, that's kind of part of my job as a couples counselor, is to help people find that motivation. Look, I can't say I'm successful at 100% of the time, but, you know, I bring energy and intentionality to it, and part of my job is to try to draw that out of the people I'm working with. So, you know, until you've tried, you really don't know how committed to couples counseling your partner can be.

Felicia Keller Boyle (45:47)

Yeah, in my experience, I can only really think of one couple where they came and they were both like, yes, we need to be here. And it felt very equal. In almost every case, there was one person leading the charge, and the other person was like, yeah, I guess I have to be here. And then there were people who were like, yeah, I know we need this. But it's almost never, like, equally motivated, which I think is really hard for the person who is leading the charge, because they're usually also the person who feels like there's their partner's the problem, like, their partner's the Quote, unquote identified patient. This is a term that therapists use to describe the person in a family system or a couple system that. That the rest of the system has decided is the right. Which of course is not actually how it works. But yeah, usually it's the person who's the most motivated leading the charge, bringing the resistant identified patient along with them. And so, yeah, I've done most of my work has been with couples where there's unequal motivation and good work can still happen.

Kenny Levine (46:50)

You know, as long as that's addressed. You know, there's this whole other therapy modality I do called discernment counseling, which is when a couple is really undecided as or they're what we call a mixed agenda couple. One person is leaning out really strongly leaning towards ending the relationship. The other partner is leaning in frequently, desperate to save the relationship. They can't get on the same page. And this isn't a disturbing. Counseling isn't about resolving the relationship issues, but it is about helping both partners understand their own contributions to the relationship issues. And very frequently that leaning in partner who is so frustrated that their partner doesn't seem to care about the relationship is furious at them and expressing all this anger at them for not caring and not giving a. You know what. And guess what, that doesn't help them save the relationship.

Christy Plantinga (47:53)

No way.

Felicia Keller Boyle (47:56)

Just love me, love me.

Kenny Levine (47:59)

So just because you are the one who really wants to save the relationship doesn't mean that you're actually helping save it.

Felicia Keller Boyle (48:05)

Oh my gosh.

Christy Plantinga (48:06)

So true.

Kenny Levine (48:08)

Really helps.

Christy Plantinga (48:09)

Yeah.

Felicia Keller Boyle (48:10)

Because here's the thing. If you are the person who's leading the charge and you do see your partner as the problem, which isn't always the case, but like some. Let's talk about that dynamic, right? Where you're like, my part, we're having problems in our relationship and it's this person's fault, like, that's really painful to be seen as this like, kind of worthless, bad human who can't do things right. And like, you are probably complaining a lot and criticizing them a lot and they're like, I love you, but like, back off. Like, it's so intense. And so it makes sense that somebody would be resistant. Yeah. So even if somebody's doing not a lot of things right, your reaction to them doing not a lot of things right can also become a not so good thing.

Kenny Levine (48:52)

Right. That's why we call this a dynamic. It's a relationship.

Felicia Keller Boyle (48:56)

Yeah, exactly.

Christy Plantinga (48:58)

Okay, so I'm going to jump into this last post and this is also from the Marriage Subreddit how to Deal with Resentment slash Contempt My husband and I have been married for seven years. Having kids really changed our relationship, but it was not great. After the first two years of marriage we've been navigating parenthood and trying to get by in this economy so it feels like our relationship hasn't been a priority for him at least. I've brought up therapy, have gone to therapy, have seen a psychiatrist and have started medication to clean up my side of the street. I've also been struggling with my mental health postpartum, which I've tried hard to work on, but I often cry and get upset at how he treats speaks to me. He has a lot going on, including possibly losing his job due to our lack of support, my emotional instability and childcare situation. He's had to take over any time I go to work and has neglected his work doing so when our childcare calls out, isn't available or we can't afford the amount of care we need. That's a lot of pressure. So it is hard to be upset that he hasn't put forth the effort into self improvement therapy and working on his own traumas and issues. But I feel like the definition of contempt is how he treats me now and it's affecting me a lot. Sarcasm, always disguising his mean words as a joke, condescending words, mockery, being dismissive, never talking about anything I feel is important. I've tried to give him time and space, but I want him to be able to lean on me when he needs support and is struggling. I don't want him to feel suffering, but how do I even navigate this? It's getting harder to even want to be around him anymore when all I get are mean jokes get pushed away and he tells me that therapy and fixing our issues is not a priority for him. Today he told me something I did six years ago when I was emotionally immature and dysregulated. I feel hated by him and like nothing I ever do will ever be enough for him to love me like he once did. Is this just from all the pressure from work and life? He claims it is, but how can you treat someone you love this way?

Kenny Levine (50:52)

You know, sometimes you hear these stories and they're just hard, hard to hear because I really feel for this person and I can hear all of the pain and struggle in their description. There are clearly just tons of issues going on in this relationship. There are individual issues going on. It just sounds like you're experiencing so many stressors and there's what's going on between the two of them. This sounds really unhappy. And I hope that they can find some ways of improving the dynamic between them, because this does not sound sustainable.

Christy Plantinga (51:38)

So her question was kind of how to deal with it. And we've talked about the antidote being.

Kenny Levine (51:44)

I think you said the slow, so the gentle startup.

Christy Plantinga (51:49)

Gentle startup. Okay.

Kenny Levine (51:50)

Yeah. So I don't know if we have the financial resources for therapy or what. Are you going to the Gutman website? There's all kinds of resources there. There are things that you can do at home. There are videos you can watch. The antidote to contempt is two parts, is learning to express your emotions and your needs in a gentle startup instead of through criticism and contempt. Then there is strengthening the fondness and admiration between the two of you. So like I said before, if it feels like too heavy a lift to try and, like, stop the. The contempt between the two of you right now, like, that you don't even know how to strive that. Let's just work on building positive, strong, warm, connected interactions. Seeing can do things that, you know, the other appreciates and makes you feel attended to. If you are willing to start doing that and just changing the ratio of conflict interactions to positive interactions, that can really start to make a significant difference. So if they were with me, I would be teaching them about the four Horsemen, but one of the first things I would be doing would be trying to increase the positive interactions between them.

Christy Plantinga (53:10)

Yeah. And it sounds like it's really tough for them right now because, you know, their mental load is so much right now. It sounds like with job insecurity and financial stuff and kids and, you know, surviving postpartum and all that kind of stuff. I imagine it's so difficult to then have to kind of step out of all that and be like, how can I do something nice for my partner today? That sounds so hard.

Kenny Levine (53:34)

You know, also let me tell you, if you think that there isn't a huge mental lid with divorce, it's not like that is an easy path that can be just as challenging and painful a path as the one you're in. I think it's always worth it to do what you can to see if you can improve things, you know, before you just throw in the towel.

Christy Plantinga (53:58)

Yeah. So it sounds like trying to build up as much as you can those positive interactions throughout the day. And then ideally, of course, couples counseling is always the best way to deal with any kind of, you know, conflict in a relationship. But, yeah, we don't know if it's accessible to them.

Kenny Levine (54:16)

You can hop on YouTube. You can watch videos about entities to the Four Horsemen. There are other resources out there if couples counseling isn't accessible to you.

Christy Plantinga (54:27)

Yeah. And we just kind of hope that the partner who did not write the post is kind of willing to engage with some of that stuff, because it sounds there's less willingness.

Felicia Keller Boyle (54:37)

I think what's hard about all of these posts is, like, we're not hearing from that partner. You know what I mean? It's like, it makes sense. Like, that's not the person who's going to be writing these posts. It's the person who is, like, already trying to figure it out, trying to fix it. And so often they're coupled with somebody who is almost, like, on the opposite end of that spectrum of, like, either this isn't a big deal or this isn't going to help anyway, so why should we? Or, I don't have the time or whatever. I mean, that's just so hard when that's the dynamic. So I think you just have to look for, like, the small ways and really check your own personal willingness. Like, am I personally willing to continue to show up for this? And, like, really, what do I need from my partner in order to do that? Right. Because I think maybe for some people, it isn't totally clear for them. They're kind of asking themselves, like, is this enough or is it not enough? And, like, they're not totally sure what they would need from their partner in order to, like, stay engaged. So maybe it is a really clear, like, hey, I need you to come to therapy if we're going to continue this. Maybe you are at your wit's end and you've been trying to do all this stuff yourself, you know, and you feel like your partner isn't really participating. So it might come to a point where you're like, we need to do this. But that's. I mean, you just have to make.

Kenny Levine (56:00)

That call, you know? Nothing against the Reddit community, but if you reach out to a couples counselor instead of the Reddit community, like that.

Christy Plantinga (56:10)

We talk about that a lot, actually.

Kenny Levine (56:12)

Your relationship more. I don't know.

Christy Plantinga (56:15)

Yeah. Because I think the thing is with Reddit. Absolutely. I think especially in all the relationship stuff, people are definitely going to bring their own experience to the table, you know?

Kenny Levine (56:25)

Well, I see this in couples counseling. I see this through, you know, with co parenting and divorce. We are living in a really polarized society right now, and that sort of ambient polarization is seeping into our relationships, and it's. It is Creating this permission structure or conflict and polarization in our most important relationships, we need to be aware of that and know that, like online communities are in social media is sort of one of the biggest contributors to this. And if you want to save your relationship, we're trying to depolarize, we're trying to view things dialectically and sort of understand things from a systemic point of view rather than this really binary point of view.

Felicia Keller Boyle (57:20)

And that takes a lot of work and energy. I think that's why this kind of slash and burn, like, place that we seem to be in of like, I just don't like that, therefore you're dead to me, is in many ways easier than. It takes less energy than like trying to see something from your partner's perspective or work something out. I mean, I think that's a really big barrier to couples therapy for so many people is they're like, oh, it's just like so much work. And it's like, yeah, it is. You're two humans with all of these unique backgrounds, like, really trying to work something out.

Christy Plantinga (57:54)

And it's.

Felicia Keller Boyle (57:54)

It takes effort.

Kenny Levine (57:56)

One of my favorite things is when people come to couples counseling. And part of the presenting complaint is I'm having to do all the emotional labor in this relationship. And you know, guess what? First of all, you're both doing emotional labor. And second of all, relationships are emotional labor.

Felicia Keller Boyle (58:11)

That's the thing. That's the thing.

Kenny Levine (58:14)

Nobody promised that you could do this without emotional labor. So let's, let's radically accept that. Let's make emotional labor constructive and productive. And then it will not read that level of resentment. No.

Felicia Keller Boyle (58:28)

This reminds me of when I was in therapy years ago and I had, I was telling my therapist, like, I'm so sick of dating people and having them tell me like, at the end of it, oh my gosh, I learned so much from you. I'm so tired of being people learning from me in relationships. And my therapist was like, well, Felicia, I hate to break it to you, but, like, that's part of it. Like, there's no. And I was just like, girl, like, I hate this. But he was so right. And I think, you know, the reality is that it's, it's a deeply time and energy intensive process to be in relationship with whole humans. If you're gonna kind of imagine somebody oversimplify a person, it's a lot easier to be in relationship with them. You can think they're bad, or you can think they're good, and you can keep it really simple. But people aren't bad or good. They're these very complicated people. And it takes a lot of psychological strength to hold that complexity of another person. And it doesn't mean you have to accept and appreciate all their behaviors. But having a deeper understanding can be really helpful.

Kenny Levine (59:34)

Helpful. And we should try to learn from everybody. I've learned from you today, Felicia. I. I could do a whole show on what I have learned from Chrissy. Oh my gosh. Life changing having gotten to know her. Yeah, let's all try to keep on learning from each other.

Felicia Keller Boyle (59:51)

I love that.

Christy Plantinga (59:52)

Well, thank you so much, Kenny. I mean, speaking of learning from someone, this was absolutely incredible. So many, you know, personal takeaways and I hope listeners get a lot out of this as well. So we always have to ask at the end of the episode, contempt in relationships. What do you really think?

Kenny Levine (60:10)

What I really think is that all of these conflict interactions happen at times in all relationships. I don't think that there is any one thing that dooms a relationship and I don't think that there's any one path to saving a relationship. Making your relationship work takes investment, it takes commitment and it takes willingness. And if you're bringing that to the table, you can overcome all kinds of relationship challenges.

Christy Plantinga (60:41)

Where can people find you if they want to learn more about your work, maybe potentially work with you?

Kenny Levine (60:47)

You can find me online@www.kennylevine.com. that's my website. I am licensed in the state of Utah and North Carolina and hopefully soon we should have a multi speed license for lcsw. I will be really thankful for that. I do also have a coaching practice that is my thriveskills.com thank you so so much.

Christy Plantinga (61:11)

Again, what a great episode.

Felicia Keller Boyle (61:13)

Thank you for being here.

Kenny Levine (61:15)

We appreciate it. Wonderful to see that.

Felicia Keller Boyle (61:17)

That's all for this week's episode.

Christy Plantinga (61:19)

If this conversation resonated with you, the best way to support us is to follow, rate and review the show. Wherever you're listening right now. Are you watching on YouTube? Subscribe and drop us a comment.

Felicia Keller Boyle (61:30)

Have a friend in mind who could use the advice in this episode? Text them the podcast. You can also connect with us on Instagram yttpodcast. We want to hear from you, so slide into our DMs with your mental health questions. They just might featured on a future episode.

Christy Plantinga (61:46)

What yout Therapist Thinks is hosted by me, Christy Plantinga and Felicia Keller Boyle. This show is brought to you by BestTherapist.com a therapist directory that vets therapists so you can focus on fit, not quality. You can find your best therapist@besttherapist.com Our.

Felicia Keller Boyle (62:03)

Show is produced by the team at Podvision.

Christy Plantinga (62:06)

See you next time.