What Should I Talk About During Ketamine Therapy? How to Get The Most Out Of A Session

Summary

Podcast Summary

What Your Therapist Thinks

Hosts: Felicia Keller Boyle & Kristie Plantinga
Guest: Dr. Shannon York, Clinical Psychologist & Specialist in Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy (CAP)
Episode Title: What Should I Talk About During Ketamine Therapy? How to Get the Most Out Of a Session
Release Date: October 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the nuances of Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy (CAP), including how it works, common myths, who it's for (and who it's not), and—centrally—how to get the most out of a CAP session. The hosts are joined by Dr. Shannon York, who specializes in identity-affirming therapy, people-pleasing recovery, and psychedelic modalities. Listening in, you’ll better understand how to prep for CAP, what to expect during and after sessions, and how to know whether this transformative therapy might be right for you.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is Ketamine & Why the Recent Hype?

• Origins & Classification:
  • Ketamine originated as a dissociative anesthetic in the 1960s, safely used on battlefields as it doesn’t suppress breathing or heart rate (02:58).
  • Unlike psilocybin or ayahuasca, ketamine is synthetic and came from the medical world.
• Surge in Popularity:
  • CAP’s rising profile stems from its legality (compared to other psychedelics), promising research, and public interest in new healing modalities, especially for depression (06:07, 07:27).
• Internet Perception:
  • “Anytime something is taboo, myths are going to arise.” — Kristie (10:55)

2. CAP vs. Other Ketamine Therapies

• Medical Model vs. Psychotherapy Model:

  • In the medical model, ketamine is the direct agent of change (e.g., IV infusions in a clinic).
  • In CAP, ketamine enhances rather than replaces the therapeutic process; the “medicine is the helper, not the healer. The actual... relationship is what is creating the change.” — Dr. York (08:54)

• Different Dosing Experiences:

  • Full psychedelic (higher doses, “trippy”)
  • Psycholytic (lower doses, lucid, “hyperfluent,” talkative therapy)
  • Not all CAP requires a psychedelic experience to be impactful (09:42).

3. Debunking CAP Myths and Common Concerns

• Common Myths:

  • “All the bad press… people are saying they’re using ketamine and don’t look like they’re in the right mind…” — Dr. York (11:09)
  • The experience is not losing control in public or while working; sessions are short and contained (usually 45-60 minutes) (12:04).
  • “I think a lot of people want it to be magic. I want it to be magic. It’s not magic.” — Dr. York (15:53)

• Safety & Customization:

  • It’s crucial to work with a clinician who supports your sense of safety; factors like dose, the presence of supportive people (even pets), and timing are adjustable (12:50).

4. Who Is (and Isn’t) CAP For?

• Cautions:
  • Those with a personal or family history of psychosis should be especially cautious (32:31).
  • People with active or recent ketamine addiction, or those unsure they can safely handle access to the medicine at home, should be closely evaluated and often referred to more tightly controlled settings (20:35, 22:32).
  • It’s not the only or always the best tool. “This is not going to be the only way we get there. So if you are absolutely against it or if you change your mind, I am with you, and we’re still gonna get where you wanna go.” — Dr. York (37:36)

5. How Does CAP Facilitate Healing?

• Mechanisms:
  • Boosts Neuroplasticity: “It makes it easier to learn new things—whether it’s a language or… coping skills.” (16:40)
  • Elevates Mood Rapidly: Especially for treatment-resistant depression. “If you had 40% less hopelessness, it would be easier to do the other things…” (16:40)
  • Quiets the Default Mode Network (DMN): Reduces rumination, making it easier to adopt new patterns of thought (16:40, 42:27).
  • Creates a Neuroplastic Window: For up to two weeks post-session, efforts to make change can be especially fruitful (39:22).

6. Preparation, Intention, and Set & Setting

• Psychological Preparation:
  • Spend time journaling; articulate intentions, but keep them flexible and not too narrow (23:23, 25:29).
• Physical Preparation (“Setting”):
  • Create a comfortable, safe space (bed, supportive person nearby, non-disruptive pets, snacks and water, curated music).
  • “Music plays such a meaningful role in the actual experience. So you’re really thinking about, am I setting myself up to get the most out of this experience?” — Dr. York (24:58)
• Therapeutic Process:
  • On lower doses (psycholytic), talking can occur during; higher doses, experiences are inward, with integration discussed afterward (27:28).
  • Integration sessions 24–48 hours after are key to processing and applying the experience.

7. Reddit Q&A: Real-Life CAP Experiences

• On Talking During Ketamine:
  • It’s normal to feel unable to talk; pressure to converse can feel disruptive, and support people should avoid initiating conversation unless invited (28:05–31:24).
  • “If talking feels good to the client, yes, we’re going to do that. If it doesn’t feel good, we’re not.” — Dr. York (29:19)
• On Breakthroughs for CPTSD:
  • There’s no single definition—clarity, relational trust, ability to invite in “exiled” parts (from the IFS model), and integrating new micropractices can be breakthroughs (39:22–41:59).
  • “The breakthrough is what you want it to be. And let’s be intentional about getting there.” — Dr. York (40:19)
• On CAP Making Therapy More Effective:
  • Many find ketamine increases openness and receptivity. However, “winning at therapy” is usually less effective than letting go and being present (46:48–48:19).
  • “Therapy is not exorcism. We’re not here to get rid of any parts of you…we want to invite more people to the party…” — Felicia (50:10)

8. Internal Family Systems & Parts Work

• CAP and IFS Synergy:
  • CAP can make it easier to meet and integrate exiled parts of the self (53:06).
  • “What they found is that people literally had this internal experience of confronting and meeting death… Can you ask what it’s there to teach you? Can you lean in instead of running away?” — Dr. York (52:15)

9. Integration and Healing Mindset

• Letting Go of Control:
  • CAP can be a powerful practice for safely experiencing surrender and for developing self-trust (36:13–38:13).
• Agency and Choice:
  • You’re not more “evolved” for trying CAP—it should always feel like your own choice, and practitioners should never be pressuring clients (36:43–37:36).

10. CAP: Not a Magic Wand, but a Powerful Hammer

• Memorable Summary:
  • “It is an incredible tool. If it’s a hammer, not everything in therapy is a nail. It’s a wonderful addition to a toolkit. A fantastic option… not a magical solution that is necessary to get to the change that you want to have.” — Dr. York (56:12)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Magic vs. Reality:

  “I think a lot of people want it to be magic. I want it to be magic. It’s not magic.” — Dr. York (15:53)

• On the Power of Integration:

  “The actual… relationship is what is creating the change.” — Dr. York (08:54)

• Letting Go and Openness:

  “Really, the set is just, what does it feel like to let go?” — Kristie (37:50)

• On Therapy as a Process:

  “Therapy is not exorcism… we want to increase the range of possibility, the flexibility and the integration of the self.” — Felicia (50:10)

• On CAP and Self-Trust:

  “My specialty is helping people retire from people pleasing... is this coming from you? Are you feeling pressured?” — Dr. York (36:53)

• On Meeting Difficult Parts:

  “If you find something scary, one, know that it’s you. It’s part of you…can you ask what it’s there to teach you? Can you lean in instead of running away?” — Dr. York (52:15)

• CAP as a Tool:

  “It’s more like a hammer, less like a wand.” — Felicia (56:37)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:58] What is ketamine? How does it work medically and in therapy?
• [06:07] Why is CAP suddenly everywhere? The resurgence of interest.
• [08:54/09:42] Medical model vs. CAP model; distinctions in administration & experience.
• [11:09] Myths, “bad press,” and safety in CAP.
• [15:53] The “magic” myth; examining realistic expectations in psychedelic therapies.
• [16:40] Three main neurobiological effects of ketamine in therapy (neuroplasticity, mood boost, DMN).
• [20:35/22:32] Cautions and contraindications (addiction, psychosis, self-trust for at-home use).
• [23:23] How to prepare for a CAP session; importance of set & setting.
• [27:28] What to expect during CAP (inward vs. talking, integration sessions).
• [28:05–31:24] Reddit Q: Trouble talking during ketamine.
• [32:31] Adverse reactions—who should avoid CAP.
• [36:43–38:13] Finding readiness, especially with family/personal history of addiction & need for control.
• [39:22–41:59] Reddit Q: Breakthroughs with ketamine, especially for CPTSD.
• [46:48–48:19] Reddit Q: Did CAP make you more receptive to therapy?
• [50:10/53:06] “Parts” work, IFS, and CAP.
• [56:12] Dr. York’s unfiltered take: “CAP is a wonderful tool, but it’s not a magic solution.”

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Further Resources

• Dr. Shannon York: inalignmentwellness.com
  • Blog, information on people pleasing, emotionally immature parents, kink, polyamorous relationships.
  • Free guide: Supporting a loved one during their CAP journey.

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Takeaways

• Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy is a promising, customizable tool—powerful when integrated into a thoughtful therapeutic relationship, but not a cure-all.
• Preparation, intention, and integration are critical for meaningful and safe experiences.
• CAP is not for everyone; choosing it (or not) should always be client-centered, without pressure.
• Healing is not about “winning” at therapy or finding quick fixes, but about curiosity, flexibility, and expanding the sorts of emotional experiences and parts of the self you can access and understand.
• Openness, safety, and a supportive context are as important as the medicine itself.

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For more on CAP or to connect with Dr. Shannon York, visit inalignmentwellness.com.

Transcript

[A]

I think a lot of people want it to be magic. I want it to be magic. It's not magic.

[B]

Anytime something is taboo, myths are going to arise.

[A]

One of the first things that got me interested in psychedelic psychotherapy people who had terminal cancer diagnoses, they gave them shrooms and people literally had this internal experience of confronting and meeting death.

[C]

If you are experiencing a lot of suffering and you've been hearing so many good things about cap, but like you're not quite sure, I think that's important for people to hear because.

[A]

The Internet.

[C]

Loves throwing around words like gaslighting, narcissist, and toxic. But most of the time they're getting it wrong.

[B]

In this podcast we unpack the Internet's most asked anonymous mental health questions that.

[A]

You wish you could ask a therapist.

[B]

And by anonymous we mean the Reddit questions you post in the middle of the night.

[C]

If you're new here, welcome. I'm Felicia Keller Boyle, licensed somatic Therapist and clinical [e-mail] and I'm Christy Plantinga.

[B]

Founder of Best Therapists and I've been in a lot of therapy. This show is brought to you by BestTherapist.com, a therapist directory that vets therapists so you can focus on fit, not quality. You can find your best [e-mail] it's time to find out what therapists are really thinking Today we are super excited to be talking about Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy. We'll get into quite a few dimensions around this topic, but we are also going to be focusing on what we're doing what to think about during Ketamine therapy. We are joined today by Shannon York, who is a specialist in Ketamine therapy. We are so excited to hear from her. Shannon is a queer licensed clinical psychologist and the founder of In Alignment Wellness, a virtual therapy practice serving clients in Florida and New York. She specializes in providing identity affirming care tailored to individuals, navigating the complexities of people pleasing behaviors, two SL GBTQIA identities and polyamorous and kinky relationships. Dr. York supports clients through individual and group therapy on their journey of recovering from emotionally immature parents and systemic oppression. A key offering in her practice is Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy, also called cap, a transformative modality that supports clients in reconnecting with their own inner wisdom. She has been astounded at how impactful CAP can be in disrupting people pleasing at roots. Its restoring self trust and making space for corrective emotional experiences that reshape how clients Relate to themselves, others and the world. Shannon, welcome to the show.

[A]

Thank you so much. I'm really delighted to be here.

[B]

Yeah, Felicia and I are just here to be absolute sponges on everything that you have to share with us about ketamine assisted psychotherapy. So first things first, what is ketamine?

[A]

So ketamine is a psychoactive substance. It is classified medically as a dissociative anesthetic. And so when we're thinking about the world of psychedelics, it's one of the few psychedelics that we have that came out of the medical world as opposed to natural world, like psilocybin, like ayahuasca. This is something that was actually created for medical settings. It was originally used as a battlefield anesthetic back in the 60s because it was a little bit safer. It's one of the few anesthetics that doesn't lower your breathing and heart rate, which is one of the reasons, because it has that kind of safety feature that it's now being prescribed for people to self administer at home because it's not something that carries some of the other risks.

[B]

That's funny that it was in the 60s and whenever I think of the 60s, I feel like that was like the drug era, you know, they're like, oh, shit, rocks.

[A]

And it's so interesting how the research on it has changed from that time. I was just doing a little kind of recon before this and looking at the history of the research on this. When we first start studying these kind of drugs, it is kind of more open field and people are curious like, what can it do? What can't it do? And then a lot of times what happens is once it becomes recreational, they lock it down. And that's what happened with ketamine too. It was starting to get leaked into the party scene, the rave scene in the 80s. And then they were like, nope, we're going to put a lid on this. And that slows the recreational use, which might be okay, but it also puts up all these obstacles in research too. So it's taken some time to get back to the research of, like, what can this do beneficially, especially in a therapeutic context.

[C]

So why do you think we're seeing a resurgence in this in recent years? Because it seems like, you know, when I was growing up, like, I didn't really hear much about ketamine.

[B]

I had never heard of it until.

[C]

Like a few years ago. Right. And now it seems like it's on every everybody's lips.

[A]

I remember.

[C]

Yeah, I feel like I started really hearing about it. When I went to grad school, I went to cias, which is like a hippie, dippy grad school. Super legit. Turns out, great therapists, but also a bit trippy. So I feel like that's one.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So that's when I started hearing about this, but I hadn't heard about it before, and now it just seems like all of a sudden it's everywhere. Like, CAP has become so popular, but also we're hearing more and more about people using recreationally with mixed results. To put it lightly.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Why do you think it's suddenly, like, does it feel like it's everywhere or is that just me?

[A]

I'm not sure if it's just you and me or if it is, but I think I have heard it's at.

[C]

Least the three of us. At least the three of us.

[A]

Hopefully we'll. We'll get it out there to some more people too, and maybe learn about.

[C]

It on the show. Like, if you're experiencing this too, leave us a comment and let us know. Like, when did you first hear about ketamine? We would love to hear your stories about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And how did you first about it?

[A]

But, yeah.

[C]

Shannon, why is this everywhere all of a sudden? What's your take on that?

[A]

It's a great question. I had a similar experience to you if I started hearing about psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, mostly with psilocybin in grad school.

[C]

And mdma, which isn't exactly a psychedelic, but gets kind of used in that world.

[A]

Yeah. And I think what we were seeing is, okay, we know therapy can do X, Y and Z. It can get us this far. But are there other things that maybe unlock a different type of heal? Could they speed up the process? Could I do two years of therapy and not 10? That would be nice for my heart and my wallet. And so I think that's a part of it. So the research was showing there's something profound that is happening in a psychedelic experience that might be meaningful and might be something that we can add. I think the other thing with ketamine is that it's legal. And all these other ones, mdma, psilocybin, lsd. You cannot go to your therapist around the corner and do that yet unless you live in maybe Colorado, maybe Oregon, so area. The other reason, yeah, we're hearing it is that ketamine is much more readily available because of the legality. And I think it's that legal issue that scares a lot of people away from pursuing this in the first place, which I get.

[B]

Yeah, I know we've been referring to also the recreational use of ketamine, just like any other, any other drug. But what is ketamine assisted psychotherapy? And we might be referring to this as CAP throughout the episode, just because ketamine assisted psychotherapy is a bit of a mouthful.

[A]

A couple distinctions. So there is already a world of, I would say ketamine treatment. Right. And this is like the medical model. And so in a doctor's office, in a psychiatrist's office, you might get a ketamine treatment, which is more in. They see the ketamine as the change agent itself. You go, you're in a sterile environment, there's a nurse, there is not usually a therapist. Sometimes they assume you have therapy, sometimes they don't. You get an infusion, it's really intense, the experience, but also the benefit, and then you go home. And the idea is that's what does the work. Ketamine assisted psychotherapy says, we think the therapy part is the important part. So ketamine is the assistant. It makes the therapy open up other pieces that maybe weren't as accessible without the medicine. But the medicine is the helper, not the healer. The actual, the therapeutic relationship is what is creating the change.

[C]

I'm really glad you're making that distinction. Honestly. I want to be like in a cozy office with someone I trust who is going to be like, monitoring my experience.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's. That's really helpful to understand because I think a lot of times people might just say ketamine therapy. And there is a difference between, like, therapy that you do with a therapist that is assisted by ketamine versus just like a massive dose of ketamine in a medical office or, or just taking it on your own by yourself and calling that ketamine therapy. It's like, right, that's therapy in the way that like, hydrotherapy is therapy. Like, that's not psychotherapy. That's just like you hoping that the ketamine you use will be therapeutic.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I will say I'm biased, Right. I'm a CAP therapist. I believe in therapy. I'm really into that part of it. There are clinics that have a more integrated model, so you can still get iv, you know, higher dose treatment and have a wonderful supported experience. So they're not mutually exclusive, but there is a spectrum. And I would say, you know, we have the medical model over here. We have in the middle CAP at like a moderate dose, different route of administration, a whole different experience. And then we have like all the way at the other end, there's something called psycholytic cap. So it's not psychedelic, it's psycholytic. You don't go into another universe. You're still very lucid. And what it actually does is just remove some of the defensive barrier and some people become hyper fluent. So there's like, here's like, here's all my trauma. And it's really, there's more access to it. It's one of the cool things that I think ketamine does. So you could have a really meaningful CAP experience and never have a psychedelic experience because you're taking a much lower dose.

[B]

Anytime something is taboo, myths are going to arise. Right. So when we think about ketamine assisted psychotherapy, what are some myths around it that you run into and you'd like to debunk right now?

[A]

For listeners, Great question. The biggest one that comes to mind is all the bad press that we've seen with certain individuals who are saying they're using ketamine and don't look like they're in the right mind, frankly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I really worry that people are going to think, oh, that's what would happen to me. I'm going to be in a work meeting chasing imaginary sparkles in the air. And that's just not what happens. What I really like about ketamine assisted psychotherapy that is different from other psychedelic psychotherapies is that it's really brief. It's 45 minutes, 45 minutes, 60 at best. And that allows you to move through it and then be out of it and go back into your normal life. Whereas if we're looking at something like psilocybin, that's a six hour day, that's a longer commitment. If you don't like it, you don't get to get off the train.

[B]

Yeah, you're a little skewed.

[A]

But if you don't like it with cap, it's like, okay, I lost 45 minutes. Okay, that's fine. I can decide I don't like it and do something else or I can make adjustments. It's such a gentler on ramp. Especially when we think about psycholytic. You don't even have to have the full dissociative experience and you can really have a lot of control. This is what I'll say. If you are working with somebody that is doing this in a safe way, they should be hearing your concerns and adjusting your experience based on that. So if you are nervous, a good CAP clinician is going to go, what can we do? To make you feel safe and in control. Do you want to lower the dose? Do you want to do it at a different time? Do you want to have your supportive person next to you? Do you want your dog in the room? Do you want to take a break? Do you want to talk to your physician again about it? Because this all gets prescribed through a physician. So really thinking about when you're vetting your clinician, how are they making you feel safe and in control in this process? Because you absolutely deserve nothing less.

[B]

I think if my dog was in the room, if I was on any kind of substance, I'd just be like, I love you so much.

[C]

You do that, Christy. You do that when you're not on a substance. Just you with your dog snug once a day.

[B]

I'll just like. I'll just, like, catch him out the bed and like, God damn it, I love you so much.

[C]

So what I'm hearing, based on what you shared, Shannon, is that probably when you're starting CAP therapy with a therapist, like, your first session probably isn't going to be doing ketamine, right? Like, they need to do an assessment. They need to understand your goals. They need to get a sense of what sort of dosage would be right for you. But of course, like you said, you're also going to be consulting with a physician who would be, you know, primarily making that decision. But probably a really seasoned CAP therapist could still have a conversation with you about dosages. And also, I think this is helpful for listeners to hear because if what you've heard about ketamine is that it can be so transformative and so helpful, you might also feel like, well, I want to get going. Like, I want to do it. I'm ready for the changes. Maybe you've also spent a lot of time in therapy, and you're like, enough's enough. But it sounds like from what you're saying, it's really important to slow that process down a bit and make sure that you're working with the right practitioner and that you've done some pre work so that your experience with CAP can actually be beneficial.

[A]

You are spot on with that. And there's a lot of debate within the community of how many sessions before you start. The consensus I'm hearing in our community so far is no less than four. That's an intake and at least three sessions. Because you gotta be able to trust me. You're going into an altered state. Like, I want you to feel safe, and I want to have had a lot of time together so that. That feels okay. The research study that I just recently read did 10 sessions before they even touched it. 10. And all of the ketamine assisted psychotherapy I've done with my clients so far have been clients I've been working with for years. And so we know each other really, really well. It would be really different with somebody new. I'm gonna go slow. I spoke with another colleague, waited three months, and just wanted to check in and say, do you really need this? Is this gonna be beneficial? And if so, how? Let's really talk through that.

[B]

Any other myths about ketamine assisted psychotherapy? We want to go over.

[A]

Gosh, there's so many. I think one of the big ones is that it's not magic. And I think a lot of people want it to be magic. I want it to be magic. I want your magic.

[C]

We all want it to be magic. Magic, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was just talking with my neighbor about this right before we recorded, like, what are some of the myths? And the idea that this has made its way into mainstream and when something new shows up, it's often touted as, like, this cure all. It's going to solve all our problems. It's going to be great. And then, like, some time passes and we're like, ooh, maybe not. Like, maybe it's a bit more nuanced than that. And it's actually not for everyone. And, like, we do need to proceed with some degree of, like, caution.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There are a couple of different ways that it is helpful. And I think it's important for people to know that so they can see how that might fit with their symptoms and kind of what kind of goals they have. So you have three awesome ways that it helps on a neurobiological level. One is increasing neuroplasticity. So it makes it easier to learn new things, whether it's a language or an instrument or, I don't know, coping skills, communication patterns. It just makes things a little bit more flexible. When we're thinking about traditional talk therapy, sometimes that's a little clunkier. Sometimes it feels hard to get a skill in the repertoire. With cap, it's a little bit easier. Not magic, but a little bit easier. So neuroplasticity is one. The second one is it almost immediately boosts your mood. And so when we're thinking about, it's often used for treatment resistant depression. There's a lot of hopelessness. And if you had 40% less hopelessness, it would be easier to do the other things to get yourself out of that trough. So the mood boost, Huge. Love that. But again, people mistake that for like, I'm done. And that's not it. Yes. You still have to build the life that supports that feeling staying. Because the goal is not that you're on ketamine forever. It's a time limited treatment, usually about eight sessions as your first round. Sometimes there's another round or two, but it's time limited. So we want to really build the other pieces of the puzzle. And the third neurobiological piece is that it quiets this part of the brain called the default mode network, which is what's happening when we are not focused on something. So it's the daydreaming part, but it's also the rumination part. It's the thinking about that weird thing you said in sixth grade part. It's thinking about how sad you are and how much work is going to suck. And if that's quieter, then again it's easier to do the other things. So there's all that cool stuff going on and then there's like the trip itself, which some people get these little nuggets of meaning that become touchstones for their progress. That's not necessary. But sometimes it's a cherry on top.

[C]

That is so helpful. I love understanding all of the ways it just creates new possibilities in our brain and in our nervous system. How it kind of raises the floor of maybe how we're feeling. Because yeah, like you said, when we're really depressed, it's so hard to do the things that will make us feel less depressed.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[C]

So just getting a little bit of a boost enough that you're like, oh, maybe I will go outside today.

[A]

Right.

[C]

We're like, oh, I had this really deep seated belief about myself, but, like, my brain just got loose enough for.

[A]

Me to maybe consider that that's not.

[C]

True or like, have a slightly different thought. Like, I love thinking about it as this, this helpful thing that just allows us to get just enough change so that we can really begin to build those habits that are going to like massively improve our lives in the long run. Yeah. Would be nice if it was just magic and we're like, cool, it's great. I could just do it forever. No side effects. But obviously nothing's actually like that. And I'm glad we're making that like we're dispelling that myth because.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

People need to know there's no magic bullet.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For like healing from a lot of this stuff. I mean, it sounds like Cap can accelerate things Just because of the effects neurologically. Because talk therapy doesn't necessarily always have those kinds of benefits, at least so directly because it's medical, but it's still not a magic bullet to.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You're better. Yay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Are there any conditions that CAP is not recommended for? Like, are there people or any, like, issues that we should not be treating with cap?

[A]

I love that question. I would just be a little bit cautious or thoughtful when we're thinking about addiction. There are people who have a history of ketamine addiction, you know, when this was a really a much more popular club drug. If that's something in your recent past, maybe not ideal. And if you have a. A history of addiction and it doesn't feel like you have a sense of control, like if you are not in a place where you trust yourself enough to know where those boundaries are, if there's part of you that is so into escape that you might misuse this, I would just be cautious. I will say this, though. There are a lot of studies out there that are using ketamine for alcohol addiction, heroin addiction, cocaine addiction. And so it has these same benefits again, of increasing that neuroplasticity. So you can make a different choice. And we want to think about what stage of recovery are you in and what is your sense of self trust to use this in a therapeutic way, not in an escaping way. Got it.

[C]

So I imagine for folks who might be dealing with active addiction and are wanting to do some work around that, wanting to recover, heal that, and they're interested in ketamine assisted therapy, they should probably work with a practitioner who's very experienced in working with addiction and CAP and can really help guide that client in knowing if this is really the best time.

[A]

Right.

[C]

To utilize this or if it's not, it puts them at risk essentially of becoming addicted to another substance.

[A]

Yes. And when I'm talking about that, there's a difference too, of like we talked about that spectrum of kinds of ketamine treatment. If you're getting an infusion, you can't self infuse at home. If you really worked hard, maybe you could find a loophole, but it'll be harder. The kind of CAP I do, the prescriber mails the rapidly dissolving tablets to your home. And so if you don't trust yourself with having the medicine in home, that's a different story. Even if you're not sure about that kind of self trust, there are other routes of administration that could still make that available. But again, like you said, you Want to work with somebody who is very specialized in that, who can walk you through the options, the pros and cons help you make an informed choice.

[B]

What should people be thinking about during ketamine therapy?

[A]

Well, I think, first of all, we place a lot of importance on something called set and setting. Whereas if you're familiar with any kind of psychedelic psychotherapy, that's a very popular term. Set means mindset. So when you are coming into this kind of treatment, you're really thinking about, what's my intention? Have I done the prep work psychologically to put me in a good headspace to have this medicinal experience? So I recommend the folks journal, and I have like four pages of journaling prompts. Pick, like four questions, really go deep with what that feels like. It doesn't have to be a lot, but I have seen a major difference in folks who are doing that preparation work and folks who are not. So the prep for the mindset, but also the prep for the setting. Can you make this a lovely experience? I work with people virtually so they are in bed when they're doing their ketamine treatment. They're getting their space comfortable. They're making sure their pets are in a place where they're not going to be disruptive. They have a supportive person who's physically there in case they need anything. They have water, they have a snack for after there's really good music. Sometimes cap is considered a music therapy because music plays such a meaningful role in the actual experience. So you're really thinking about, am I setting myself up to get the most out of this experience?

[B]

So set kind of mindset, going into it and setting your kind of physical. Physical experience?

[A]

You got it.

[B]

So does it start where maybe you're speaking with your therapist and you think, I want to think about this part of my life? Or maybe we can discuss this memory and maybe even how much talking is involved in all this. Is it just kind of you in your head or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you explain what that's like?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So when you're thinking about the intention, you want to be mindful of how wide and how narrow. Because if you're like, I'm really going to work on this one specific thing and I'm going to feel exactly this. It's just not going to happen. So I think about setting an intention that is a little bit wider of like, I am going into this looking for clarity. I'm looking for relief. I'm wanting to feel empowered, and I'm just welcoming in whatever information might help me feel that Sometimes you get a direct, clear kind of experience that aligns with that. Sometimes you don't. Setting the intention and then letting go of the outcome and knowing that we're going to make meaning of it regardless. So whatever comes up is okay. But an intention that is not too specific but also not too vague when we're thinking about psycholytic. So that's the lowest dose. You can have the medicine and you're able to talk and so you can talk during that one. Sometimes that's encouraged, Sometimes it's really fluent. The other ones, a lot of folks are encouraged to really just go inward. So you're wearing eye shades, you're wearing headphones, you've got the music going, you're in your cozy blanket, maybe in your bed, maybe at a treatment center. And you are just having an inward experience. And that talking comes after. A really common thing that people say after the treatment is that there are no words. It's so different from our day to day. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes can take time to get there. Which is why we schedule an integration session where we really unpack things 24 to 48 hours after. Sometimes you'll have words, then sometimes it takes longer.

[B]

Interesting. And that actually brings us to our first post from Reddit which is about talking during ketamine assisted psychotherapy. This is from the subreddit Therapeutic Ketamine. Should you be able to talk during an infusion? I went for my first infusion and I have never experienced any drug other than THC edibles. I tried for anxiety once. My husband went with me and started discussing pharmaceutical engineering. I normally know about that stuff, but my mind knew and my mouth wouldn't work. Unfortunately, this made me really scared because I had to fight the med to keep up with the conversation. Is it better to be alone or is it just because it's my first time?

[A]

Oof. I love that.

[B]

Pharmaceutical engineering first.

[C]

My goodness.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like I think it's better not to be with your husband while he's having a hyper intellectual conversation while you're on K. I think, like I concur with that. I said goodbye. That's my humble opinion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe that was the intention. Maybe that was the set, you know.

[A]

Coming to solve problems. Wow. Figure out this engineering thing. Yeah.

[C]

Also who is he talking to? Is like, was it like him and the practitioner just like gabbing about this?

[B]

And I also think the practitioner would not be engaging in that discussion. Right.

[C]

Like what is happening?

[A]

Pharmaceutical engineering wouldn't be on my top 10 list of things to discuss during.

[B]

Not a Great set.

[A]

Wouldn't be my choice, but, hey, like.

[C]

I don't know, sound client wasn't really this person's choice either. Yeah.

[A]

One of the trainings I went to talked about how important it is to coach your support people. A lot of people find that you're having this experience that is so far beyond words, that is so different from anything you've experienced. And it's really hard to communicate that to loved ones. Both what it was like and then also what you need and what we see too. In systems that aren't prepared, they'll either have really, really high expectations of the client of, like, this was supposed to be magic. You're cured, you're fixed. Do all the things. Or there will be some frustration of like, oh, this person's getting better and now I have to look at myself. So preparation also includes the people around you. And that is something that I am incorporating more and more into my practice because I'm seeing the ripple effect of what happens when loved ones are prepared and have realistic expectations versus when they don't. And it makes a big difference in my client's experience. So if I were in that situation, I might have warmly asked that person to table the conversation until after, maybe hours after, and to really let that person go inward. If talking feels good to the client, yes, we're going to do that. If it doesn't feel good, we're not. And so that decision, ideally, I wouldn't want to come from the client themselves. Does this feel helpful? What I've seen is because it's a dissociative anesthetic, it makes everything feel really heavy. The words are kind of syrupy and talk. And so if you're holding yourself to the same expectations as a sober you, it's going to be really frustrating. And so just saying it sounds like.

[B]

It would ruin it. Yeah.

[A]

It sounded like it took that person really.

[B]

Yeah. Just out of the experience. Because I think when I'm getting from this person is her real question is, did I do this wrong? Did I. Did I overdose because I couldn't speak? That's kind of what I'm getting from the post.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I would say normal experience for the words to be harder to find. I wish that that person had some more support to know that. And helpful if the support person is quiet unless explicitly asked not to be.

[B]

Pharmaceutical engineering.

[C]

It just seems so ridiculous. I know when I did ketamine, I was talking, but I was just like, whoa, Like. And laughing. Yeah, I was just like, laughing. And the person I Was with was like, they had told me before. They were like, oh, yeah, you probably won't be able to talk. And I was actually talking quite a lot, but it was mostly just me laughing and being like, like, wow, this is so cool.

[B]

But for listeners, it's okay. If you feel like you physically can't speak. That's not a sign that, like, things are going bad or you're having a bad reaction or something like that.

[C]

It'll go away. It'll go away as you come out of it. And I think from what you're saying, Shannon, like, you know, really depends on the dosage, and it probably also depends on the person, you know, and, like, what their inner experience is like. I'm sure there are a lot of variables that go into it, but are there actually adverse reactions to ketamine? And when there are, what do those look like?

[A]

Sure, yeah. I think when you're dealing with a pharmaceutical product, there's always something. There's always, you know, the little side effects on the commercial that you hear. One of the things we think about in the psychological world is personal and family history of psychosis. So if you have personally experienced a break from reality, if that runs in your family pretty deeply, we just want to be curious about it. And both myself and the medical practitioner will do a thorough background and really look at what is the risk, because this does break you from traditional time and space. And if that is unsettling or that creates an anxiety that could be really painful.

[C]

And maybe even dangerous to an extent. Right. So that is something to definitely consider and talk with your therapist and physician about.

[A]

Yeah. And like, all things, you want to think about the informed choice and do a gut check if somebody is trying to talk you into it and assure you that it's okay. Probably not the best person. If somebody is saying, here are the risks, here's the prevalence of the risk, here's what I think, based on your family, how does that feel for you? Is that feeling safe? Is that feeling scary? We have a hundred other options. Like, again, cap isn't magic, and I don't ever want people to feel like it's the only option because there's so many other things. People come to it as a last resort, and I think want it to be salvation. We have a really robust mental health world to work with, and I don't want people to feel like they have to take a risk that doesn't feel comfortable. Absolutely.

[C]

I think that's important for people to hear, because if you are experiencing a lot of suffering and you've been hearing so many good things about CAP that, like, you feel nervous and you're not quite sure to know that, like, it's okay to keep on trying other things. You don't have to do Cap, because it actually isn't for everybody.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And it sounds like we. You know, there are definitely some things that are contraindicated, like a history of psychosis. But, yeah, I mean, I think we should just be able to make the decisions that feel right for us. Like, if you feel really nervous about doing this, then you shouldn't have to do it, because there are other options, and you should be wary of, like, people or practitioners who are trying to, like, convince you that this is the thing you should do. I feel like, for me, I do have a very strong history of addiction in my family, and I have not dealt with substance addiction myself, but I've been very nervous about substances throughout my life because of my family history. And so, for me, it was so important to get to a point where I felt safe, where I found someone that I felt safe around. And there were so many times that, like, people I knew and friends were like, hey, let's do it. Like, I'll take care of you. There's something about being a person who doesn't do substances that I think other people just find really fascinating. And they're like, I want you to get high.

[B]

Like, yeah, but have you tried it?

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, I don't want to. So finally, I did find someone who I trusted, and there was none of that kind of, like, curiosity about, like, I want to see you get fucked up or, I want to see you get high, like. And I was like, actually, I do feel ready to do this. And by then, I had done so much other work in my life, and a really big piece for me, honestly, around that was, like, preventing me from doing it was my fear of being out of control.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And so finally, when I did enough work in myself, had nothing to do with psychedelic experiences about being able to surrender and release control but do that in a way that I was still safe.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And I felt safe once that occurred, I was able to start to use some of these other modalities, and that was really helpful. But, like, hopefully that's helpful for people to hear. Like.

[B]

It might.

[C]

You might do this eventually, you might not.

[A]

And that's okay.

[C]

You're not, like, more evolved if you want to or do this work. Like, everybody's journey looks so different.

[A]

Absolutely. My specialty is helping people retire from people pleasing and so we really work on the trust piece. And, like, is this coming from you? Are you feeling pressured to do this? What would it look like if there wasn't any pressure in a vacuum? Would you make this choice? And what I tell folks when I bring this up as an option is saying, we can get to your goals without this. I don't have any doubts about that. This is not going to be the only way we get there. So if you are absolutely against it or if you change your mind, I am with you, and we're still gonna get where you wanna go. But this is an option, and do you wanna look at how it might be helpful?

[C]

I love that.

[B]

I love thinking about the relationship to control piece. That's what my therapist tells me. She's like, oh, life is just about your relationship to control. And I'm like, God damn it, Alicia.

[C]

Calling me out.

[B]

It's an interesting exercise to just be like, wow, I really am in a very safe environment. But practicing what that feels like. So it's definitely, I think, an opportunity for growth from that alone. Even if you don't have these really specific therapeutic outcomes, really, the set is just, what does it feel like to let go?

[A]

Yeah, it's pretty.

[C]

That's been so huge for me.

[B]

Yeah. I love this next post, and I'm super, super excited to hear from you, Shannon, about this. This is also in the Therapeutic Ketamine subreddit for cptsd. How does a breakthrough with ketamine look like? As someone who did several mdma, psilocybin, and other psychedelics, I'd be happy to learn more about ketamine and how breakthroughs look like. I'm dealing with several issues stemming from CPTSD and would like to learn how to navigate this space and trying ketamine with a provider.

[A]

Oh, gosh. I have so many thoughts and feelings.

[B]

Where to start.

[A]

You know, this is the preparation. What is your wish to. What is your wish of what a breakthrough would look like? That's what I want to know. If this treatment got you where you wanted, what is the breakthrough that you're looking for? Can we use that information to be intentional? Can we use that as an intention? And can we look at. So you're going to have this ketamine experience. You're going to have this neuroplastic window for up to two weeks after dosing. It's really.

[B]

For me. Oh, I didn't know that.

[A]

What happens in the two weeks that is gonna get you through to this place that you wanna be with cptsd? I think about trust, relational trust. There's so much pain in relationships. There's been so much harm done. What's the next level for you? Is it to practice letting somebody in? Is it to practice reaching out? Is it to listen to yourself when your gut says, this isn't safe, I need to get out, as opposed to numbing or putting that in a box? But it's so personal. So the breakthrough is what you want it to be. And let's be intentional about getting there. And let's use this neuroplastic window to do these tiny, tiny micro practices that will move you in that direction so that your body can experience the safety of this new version of you.

[C]

Amazing. I love it. I love how you took that question and you were like, actually let's completely reframe what a breakthrough is. Because there can be so much pressure on these experiences to have something really profound happen. And like with, with mind altering substances, we often think of those as like a vision or a completely new radical thought or whatever. And it's just like my, I walk out of the room and I'm in a different life, you know, and then when you don't have that, you're like, you might feel really disappointed or like you messed it up, you know. But I love how having that intention beforehand and thinking about, well, what is the change you really want to see in your life and how can we use this rather than it needing to be some fantastical experience.

[A]

Yeah, I have clients who have no inner experience during the Kennedy. Oh, wow, nothing. And initially it was really disappointing for them. And pardon me, like, I have a lot of like rich inner world. I've gone through this experience because I wanted to know what it was like for my clients. So I've gone through that. And mine was like magical, fantastical, but like, I'm an only child who was raised on books. There's a lot going on in there. And there are other people who just don't have, I mean people have aphantasia. They don't have like an inner visualization system. You can still get amazing effects because it's not just what's happening in the trip, it's what do you do after with whatever that information is. And worst case scenario, you get an hour of relaxation. I'm cool with that. That sounds good. A lot of the people I'm working with aren't having a lot of time for that. But yeah, it's what comes after that matters.

[B]

Interesting. Do you find that the brain almost kind of like rearranges things to kind of get there because we can't do it ourselves. But maybe the pieces kind of fall together. I've found sometimes if I have a problem and then I just kind of leave it and I don't think about it consciously, but in the back of my mind, maybe a week later, I'm like, oh, that's what I'm gonna do.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

Does that happen?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not crazy.

[C]

You're not crazy.

[A]

I think that's kind of that. That quieting of the default mode network of, like, I'm not gonna spin out and be like, what's the solution? What's the solution? What's the solution? What's. I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna let there be quiet so that, again, something can happen in the background to get me there. But maybe it's not so effortful. Maybe it's not so painful. Maybe I'm not. Not, like, chewing on it day in and day out.

[C]

Yeah. Our default mode network is not the seat of wisdom.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Right. That's not where wisdom comes from. That's where, like, worry and busyness and this kind of contraction occurs. I don't know what the brain looks like when we're accessing our. Our wise selves, but I'm assuming it's not the default network. Right. It's something that's probably much more integrated and something that is much more free. Right. And I. What I would often say to my clients is like, you're too close to the problem to figure it out. You know, when. When the mind goes to this place of, like, obsessively trying to get the answer to why. Why is it this way? And I really. It's like all of this contraction happens both, like, somatically but also psychologically. And that is not a place where our minds can be integrated and where creativity and flexibility happens. That brings our deep inner knowing to the surface. So sometimes when you just kind of let go, you, like, sink into the flow of this. Things start to connect in your brain, and the answer becomes more clear. And it happens in a way that actually feels good instead of like this, like, oh, come here. Good idea. I'm going to get you. That's not pleasant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I like what you said about it feeling good. It's just not such a struggle and not such a fight. And I think too, you know, when we're not super stressed and depressed, our default mode network can go into the joy of, you know, what happens when you're looking out the window and it can Be that playful daydreaming, and it can be that background problem solving, but we've got to get it to a place where it's not just sitting with our stress and our pain. So I think there's just room for it to be more than the rumination. I love that.

[C]

Okay, so what you're saying here is our default mode network can actually be a seat of wisdom.

[A]

It's a both. And I think it's like, what is it being occupied with? And can we give it a different task? Can we let it rest from the task that it usually has, which is beating ourselves up and worrying about the future? Can we let it look out the window? And maybe when it's looking out the window and daydreaming, the answers will come.

[C]

I feel soothed just hearing that. I'm just like, ah, yes. It makes me think about going for a long bike ride. I feel like that's when I would have really good ideas. It's like, oh, I've been riding my bike for miles, and all I'm doing is just, like, eyes in front of me, pedaling.

[B]

Not even pedaling right.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And the answer would emerge.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

That's what feels right. Instead of, like, wrestling so much.

[B]

Yeah. I love these moments we have on the show where we just get to be calmed by our guest. Felicia and I are like, totally.

[C]

No, seriously, I'm like, wait, where are we?

[B]

So thank you, Shannon.

[C]

Thank you for that.

[B]

Okay, I think we have time for one more. I'm very interested to hear about this because this might just be a benefit of ketamine alone for. For some people. So this is also in the therapeutic ketamine subreddit. Did you find ketamine made you more receptive to therapy? I have hit a wall therapeutically. My therapist and I have decided to try ketamine to help me as my other medications have lost their efficacy. I want to work hard in therapy, but I'm so locked into my fears and negative thinking that it's impossible for me to work on anything. Did anyone find ketamine allowed them to be more open and receptive to therapy? I'm hoping this helps.

[A]

Hell, yeah. Yes. Yes, yes. And this is the neuroplasticity part of, again, there's more flexibility and openness to hearing things in a different way. So your therapist could say the same thing that they've said to you in 25 previous sessions, but you hear it after the treatment in a different way, and you're like, oh, something is just a little bit more Spacious there, not magic. So I have seen folks who get a ketamine infusion and come to therapy, and the rigidity is still there, the defensiveness is still there. But I think that's more the exception than the rule. So what I see mostly is that it really unlocks and creates some more flexibility. But again, this asterisk of like, and it's not magic. And when I'm hearing someone so tightly holding onto, I want to work hard, I want to do this, this. I'm thinking, how do we, like, let go a little bit? And so maybe not repeating the cycle and saying, now ketamine's gotta do it.

[C]

Ah.

[A]

But instead going, what would it be like to let therapy be gentle, easy for the way you're showing up to be good enough to maybe be intentional about one small thing that we can get you some sense of achievement and accomplishment in, as opposed to needing to win at therapy or do it perfectly?

[C]

I can see why you specialize in people pleasing. It's like you've really got, as I'm hearing, you know how to speak.

[B]

It's helpful for others, not for me. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

I can't even imagine what that's like.

[A]

But hopefully this resonates with somebody. Yeah.

[C]

No, the winning at therapy, I've never heard that before, but that really, really hits me like that when people come in and they. They're just such hard workers in their lives, and they're like, okay, so now I'm doing therapy, so I'm gonna do the best at therapy, and I'm just gonna kill it.

[B]

I'm gonna deal with this, and then it's gonna. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm gonna do this faster than anyone's ever done this before.

[B]

And also be like, oh, my God, should you be a therapist? Like, you're that good at therapy.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. I have so much compassion for that. And just. It just makes me think of, so how. So often when we go to therapy, we're like, this is what needs to happen. And I feel like oftentimes it's almost like the opposite.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I feel like as a therapist, so many people came in being like, I need to figure out why I. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so I can start doing this thing different. And in my experience, it's almost always, you have to start doing the thing differently, and then you start to uncover why. Right. Because so often the block to changing your life is like, I've got to figure it out. And it's like, yeah, there's probably a really good Reason why you haven't figured it out yet, you know, because it.

[A]

Sounds like you're trying and you're really invested.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And I feel like our medicine is so often, like, the thing that we're not already doing, you know, so if the thing you're already doing all the time is figuring it out or trying really hard or being the A student or, like, whatever.

[B]

Usually.

[C]

Not always, but usually your medicine is to, like, do something that's over there. Right. And then. And then you increase your range. Right. Like, I would also say, like, therapy is not exorcism. We're not here to get rid of any parts of you, or, like, love that everyone who's here gets to stay. But we want to, like, invite more people to the party. Like, we want to increase the range of possibility. We want to increase the flexibility and the integration of the self. If these are all the people who are always at the party, it's like, well, who are the other people who we normally don't invite to the party? And could we, like, maybe let them come and, like, get to know them a little bit better?

[B]

Ketamine's the doorman in this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, come on in.

[A]

Everybody's welcome.

[B]

I'm not checking IDs, so get on in here.

[C]

And maybe you get to meet some parts of yourself that have been, like, previously exiled. And you're like, oh, I thought you were gonna be really scary, but actually you're pretty cool.

[A]

Right?

[C]

I just was always looking at you from across the room and thought you were a little scary, but, like, no, you're. You're awesome.

[A]

That's actually one of the first things that got me interested in psychedelic psychotherapy. In grad school, we read a paper about psilocybin for end of life experiences. People who had terminal cancer diagnoses, and then they gave them shrooms. And I was like, that's wild. I hope to be the cool person at the end of my life. Then I'm like, I'm doing drugs. I'm going out anyway. And what they found is that people literally had this internal experience of confronting and meeting death. Whoa. And part of the preparation work in all types of, I think psychedelic experience is, is if you find something scary, one, know that it's. It's you. It's part of you. It's in your head. Right. Two, this experience is going to end. Three, can you ask at what it's there to teach you? Can you lean in instead of running away? Because what we've been doing our Whole lives is running away from the scary thing, trying to find safety from the scary thing in this container. We want to lean into the scary thing and say, who are you? What are you here to do for me? And it's kind of like making friends with those parts of ourselves of those people at the party who are causing a ruckus and really loud or really judgmental or whatever. Can we relate to that in a different way? So I love the doorman party metaphor very much. I think that's spot on.

[C]

I guess ketamine is, like, either really good at its job or really bad at its job. Right? Right. Depending on how you look at it, we'll see. It's a very inclusive club that this man is trying to create.

[B]

That's interesting because I know we were talking about combining ketamine with internal family systems, which is, you know, definitely newer, I think, for non therapists. And that's like, parts work. So we all have different parts of ourselves. Like, we're one person. But then letting all of those come to the party with ketamine is a healing experience. Is that fair from the non therapists in the room?

[C]

It can be. In an ideal world, it is a healing experience. I think there are probably instances where someone gets invited to the party and they show up. And, like, the other parts, the more dominant parts are maybe not as ready to receive, and that could maybe not be so fun afterwards. But I do think it is part of the process of healing. From my perspective of, like, what is healing? Like, my theory of change is. Yeah. Like, it is having more integration. It is starting to hold the parts of ourselves that we've always seen as good and also being able to love and appreciate the parts of ourselves that we historically have seen as bad.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I don't know. I think it makes our experience of ourselves better, but I also think it creates tons of compassion and understanding for other people. I think it leads to us being truly better people in the world. Because if we can't alienate ourselves and see ourselves as evil, then we can't really see other people as evil either. You know, we're sort of forced to find some amount of compassion for every person. And I. My theory is that's probably going to be helpful. You know, like, that's not the same as saying we can't have boundaries.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

That we can't say no to certain things. That. That is not what I'm saying. But just understanding that, like, you're not evil, other people aren't evil.

[A]

Right.

[C]

That seems like it shouldn't be a controversial thing to say, but I somehow feel like that's not People respectful by everyone. I don't know.

[B]

It's very healing. If we think, what would the world look like if none of us could ever even have the thought that someone else is evil?

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like, if we didn't walk around hating ourselves sometimes, you know, like, how do we first, how do we learn to hate other people? Like, how do we. Yeah, it's like we hate parts of ourselves. We wish they weren't here. We think they're terrible and should die, and it's judge ourselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It makes it so much easier to do that to other people. Now I just feel like we're. Now we're, like, really trippy. We're like.

[B]

With these two in the room at their hippie dippy levels, it's you guys.

[C]

It's just so simple. Just love each other, right?

[B]

That's it.

[A]

We did it. Podcast over. Nailed it.

[C]

Okay. We want to know what you really think about ketamine assisted therapy. What is your unbridled, unfiltered opinion thinking about ketamine assisted therapy?

[A]

I think it is an incredible tool. And if it's a hammer, not everything in therapy is a nail. It's a wonderful addition to a toolkit. A fantastic option that I want more people to have the space to explore and not a magical solution that is necessary to get to the change that you want to have.

[C]

So it's one of many tools that we can use. It's more like a hammer, less like a wand, right?

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Amazing.

[C]

Well, thank you for being here with us today and sharing so much of your wisdom and knowledge about this topic.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So how can people find out more about you?

[A]

So they can visit me on my website, inalignment wellness.com I'll be there. I have a blog I talk a little bit about more of the nuance of ketamine assisted psychotherapy along with some other fun stuff. People pleasing emotionally immature parents, kink, polyamorous relationships, all that good yumminess. And there's also a button there, if you're interested to learn more, to schedule a free consultation where we can dive a little deeper and see if it might be a fit for you. And one of the things we talked about today was how important it is to prepare the people around you if this is a journey that you're going to embark on. And so I have a little freebie. If anybody's interested in learning more, you can find it on my website. And it's just a little guide for loved ones of what to expect if somebody that you care about is embarking on this journey and how to support them through that so they can really reach the goals that they're trying to reach.

[C]

Amazing. Okay, so you can grab that on our website and we'll also make sure to include the link to that in our show notes so that you don't have to go looking for it. That's all for this week's episode.

[B]

If this conversation resonated with you, the best way to support us is to follow, rate and review the show. Wherever you're listening right now. Are you watching on YouTube? Subscribe and drop us a comment.

[C]

Have a friend in line who could use the advice in this episode? Text them the podcast. You can also connect with us on Instagram yttpodcast. We want to hear from you, so slide into our DMs with your mental health questions. They just might be featured on a future episode.

[B]

What yout Therapist Thinks is hosted by me, Christy Plantinga and Felicia Keller Boyle. This show is brought to you by BestTherapist.com, a therapist directory that vets therapists so you can focus on fit, not quality. You can find your best [e-mail] Our.

[C]

Show is produced by the team at Podvision.

[B]

See you next time.