B (2:14)

And clinical advisor@besttherapist.com and I'm Christy Plantinga, founder of Best Therapists. And I've been in a Lot of therapy.

A (2:22)

This show is brought to you by.

B (2:23)

BestTherapist.com, a therapist directory that vets therapists so you can focus on fit, not quality. You can find your best therapist@besttherapist.com it's time to find out what therapists are really thinking. Today we are joined by John Lee. John Lee, they them is a California licensed MFT who identifies as queer, non binary, autistic and Taiwanese American. John specializes in supporting the recovery and healing journeys of people with dissociative experiences, complex traumas, and intersecting marginalized identities. They are a Level 3 TIST certified clinician, which stands for Trauma Informed Stabilization Treatment, and a senior facilitator for TIST or T I S T certification. John recognizes that therapy, trauma and resilience are political. They believe a trauma informed practice requires clinicians to commit to decolonizing and advocacy for liberation of all oppressed people. You can learn more about John's therapy practice@johnlee mft.com John, welcome to the show.

C (3:29)

Thank you. So excited, so honored.

A (3:32)

Yeah, yeah, we were super grateful to have you on the show. I know John. I've gotten to work with John for quite a while and I was just so excited when you said yes to being on the show.

C (3:44)

Oh my God. Same. And thank you for helping me level up my practice, Felicia.

A (3:49)

Oh, you're so welcome. That really does mean a lot. People might also be confused. They're like, wait, what are you talking about? In my other life, when I'm not hosting what your therapist thinks, I am the host of my own podcast called the Bad Therapist show and I am a business coach for therapist. I'm a private practice business coach. So that's how John and I know each other.

B (4:10)

One of Felicia's many skills. This is going to be a heavier episode. This is about trauma, the types of trauma. We'll have some Reddit stories to pull from that. Both of you, I would love to hear from you because Felicia, you also work with trauma. First things first. I think trauma is something that is, you know, maybe thrown around a lot online. Like I remember a couple years ago, there's kind of a general sentiment of people getting frustrated where it's like everything's a trauma response. And like, I think the general public was getting kind of annoyed by that. And again, that's kind of my world. So that's what I was picking up on. But again, you know, maybe that's the case that so much of our behavior is a trauma response. But before we go any deeper, John, what is Trauma.

C (5:04)

I like to think of it as a lasting adaptation from the nervous system to something that's essentially too much or too soon or maybe not enough. When more is needed, it's always in the context of threat and danger. It could be physical, could be emotional danger. It could also be psychological danger. But I like to think of it as some kind of adaptation to that danger that has left a legacy inside. So that could be from, like, single events, that could be from ongoing events.

A (5:44)

Felicia.

B (5:45)

Yeah.

A (5:46)

No, I mean, no, no, no, no. It's so well done.

B (5:49)

It's a challenge. I mean, I've never heard it described as a legacy before.

A (5:54)

Yeah.

B (5:54)

Which is such an interesting way to conceptualize it.

C (5:58)

Totally. I actually learned of that specific framing from Janina Fisher, who was such a mentor of mine, and she founded the TIST Framework and Approach. She has a whole workbook, literally, called Transforming the Living Legacy of Trauma. And, yeah, that just really speaks to how the remnants of it just continue to live on in us and continue to play out in our lives, in our relationships, in our worlds, even intergenerationally, too. Oh, that's true.

B (6:31)

Think of legacies. You know, that's something we kind of leave or that lasts.

C (6:35)

Absolutely.

A (6:36)

Right. The epigenetics of trauma and how that gets passed down in our genes, but also in how we take care of each other or don't. Right. I also appreciated, John, that you mentioned that a trauma response isn't just to experiences of too much or too soon, but it can also be to experiences of not enough. Right. Like, we often think of trauma as like, something happening to us. Right. Or trauma as a response to something happening to us, but it can also be a response to something not happening to us that really needed to happen. Right. And you also highlighted the difference between trauma that can be event specific and trauma that can be part of what we call like developmental trauma. Right. Or complex trauma, which is experiences that have occurred again and again throughout our childhoods or just throughout our lives. And how that can compound even like, quote, unquote, small things can compound to create a trauma response.

C (7:44)

Yeah. And I've also learned how things can really set the stage for a nervous system that's more sensitized to threat and danger. So in addition to something that happens again and again and again, there's a way that something early on might set the stage for a whole period of life that just feels like too much. It just feels overwhelmingly stressful. And it's because of the way the nervous system was set up from something earlier.

B (8:19)

Right.

A (8:19)

It makes Me think of a raw nerve, you know, or like a toothache. It's like under normal. Under normal circumstances, there would be like a layer of protection, a layer of like almost resiliency. Exactly right. And like you said about sensitizing the nervous system, it can break down that resiliency so that something that might not have triggered a trauma response before is now going to trigger a trauma response. It's like repeated traumas can really wear down. And I'm thinking about like two of our earliest episodes. I'm thinking about our episode with Haley around hypervigilance, because you mentioned that just like kind of being stuck on high alert. And then I'm also thinking about our conversation with Ariana around emotional numbness. Right. So you can both, as a result of being exposed to traumatic experiences, be stuck on high alert and also start to numb out. Right. Or to fracture. You talked about dissociative identity disorder. Right. Which can be a way that we begin to dissociate to the extreme sometimes of having multiples. Yeah, maybe I'm getting too far ahead here, but like, my brain is just starting to like, it's connecting all of these dots of things we've discussed here so far.

B (9:34)

Is, you know, a trauma response overstated online? Can everything in a way be attributed back to, to a trauma? Or is everything a trauma response? What do you two think about that?

C (9:48)

I might need to think on that a little more. Like, I do know that some clinicians who come from an earlier time where there needed to be a lot more advocacy around what constitutes childhood trauma might have a strong stance on not making everything into a trauma related response because they come from a time where they fought hard to have more forms of trauma get recognized, whereas it used to be mainly seen as combat related or like really, really big events. But as far as, like, whether a lot can be traced back, I'm honestly kind of inclined to say yes from my experience of what I've seen. But I'm only going off what I've seen and my own lived experience. I have found that when you peel back enough layers, it always makes sense. And you can usually kind of trace the threads of how some kind of adaptation set the stage for more sensitizing, to threaten, which set the stage for the way some beliefs got internalized. And that sets the stage for more sensitivity to things.

A (11:12)

It can be a bit of a feedback loop. Right. Because something happens and you're more sensitive and then inevitably life throws you more curveballs, which might be like extreme events or might be things that are less extreme, but because of the way your nervous system is operating.

B (11:28)

Right.

A (11:29)

It's like when you've got a raw nerve, when you've got a toothache, and, like, just the slightest thing can, like, feel super painful.

B (11:37)

Right?

C (11:38)

Yeah, exactly.

A (11:39)

I think what you said earlier on is, like, really important to highlight, which is, like, the context of the mental health field over the last, you know, several decades. And like you said, historically, when we've talked about trauma, we were talking about combat, and we were talking about extreme, singular events, like, say, a rape or, you know, the death of a love with a violent. Experiencing something violent, like witnessing violence. These things that for a lot of people, obviously not all people, don't actually happen that often, but are very extreme and very violent. Right. And so it didn't take into account things like complex or developmental trauma, which were subtler, quote unquote, smaller traumas, little t traumas, but that really added up over the course of someone's lifetime. And so it makes sense that, as you're saying, like, some people fought really, really hard to have that understood as trauma. And how when therapy speak kind of bled into, like, our culture at large, and suddenly it seemed like almost anything could get called trauma. There could be a reaction to that. But I think it's really important to just say, ultimately, trauma has more to do with your physiological response to an event, and it's not actually about the event itself, because what can be traumatizing for one person is not necessarily traumatizing for another, and what might be traumatizing at one stage in your life may not be traumatizing in another.

C (13:13)

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. Because our temperament that we're born with on a more biological basis and. Or our brain type, whether that be autism or adhd or just having a stickier brain type where things just kind of stick more in the brain.

A (13:37)

All.

C (13:37)

Of that plays huge roles in how somebody adapts and moves through the world, navigates environmental stressors, interpersonal stressors, like, all of that. So I love that you said that. That is such an important piece. It is both nature and nurture, I.

B (13:55)

Found, I think based on your definition and thinking about how really so much of our behavior is just a reaction to something. I mean, it makes sense that if we were to categorize it in a.

A (14:08)

Way that would be, you know, traumatic.

B (14:11)

If even a little thing, but your reaction is, like, negative. Could it be thought about that way?

A (14:18)

So I want to be clear that, like, having a quote unquote negative reaction is not necessarily the Same thing as having a trauma response. Okay. Like that's there.

B (14:27)

What I want to get down into, like, is every little reaction. And I don't want to like, you know, minimize anything where it's like, oh, little.

A (14:34)

That's. No, this is a really, really good question because I do think, like, let's talk about what's really happening in a person's nervous when they are having a trauma response. It is a. Not just like, I feel uncomfortable right now. It's your body having response to stimuli to an event in which your body is essentially coding this as a threat and your system is going into hyper or hypoarousal. John, do you want to talk a little bit about that? Because I know you can take it from here.

C (15:05)

Oh, totally. Yeah.

B (15:07)

Yeah.

C (15:07)

It could be hyper arousal, could be hypoarousal, it could be a freeze, which I love learned is kind of like both at the same time. Foot on gas, foot on break. Like, oh, there's a lot of activation. Gotta do something. But also like, don't make a wrong move. Be really cautious. It could also be a dissociative experience where the nervous system is like, let's turn the volume down on your experience right now. Yeah. And oftentimes when it is a trauma related reaction, it's in reaction to some kind of cue. The cue can be outside side of you, it can be inside of you. Like some kind of internal sensation that's got some associations to it connected to some really overwhelming time. The inner cue could be a thought, a memory, could be an emotion. It could even be like a posture in the body that just kind of brings up traumatic implicit memory.

A (16:07)

Yeah, you're taking me back, John. Like I've definitely, I've definitely freaked myself out to the point of having a trauma response. Like usually there is some sort of external trigger, but then there can be a cascade of internal experiences that can put me, put a person into a trauma loop. And over time, I've gotten better at noticing when I'm beginning to tip into that place and kind of pull myself back out resource so that that cascade doesn't continue. So to take it back again to what is the difference between having a negative response and having a trauma response? A trauma response is one in which our nervous system is no longer functioning in a way that allows us to feel safe, to be creative, to essentially use our frontal cortex. Like our frontal cortex shuts down in a trauma response. And though we may think we're being logical, we're not using the most highly developed part of Our brain, we are relying on earlier brain systems. We're relying on our brain stem to operate and to make decisions. So that's like one of the definitions of having a trauma response is like your frontal lobe has gone offline. So when you're in an argument with your partner and you're like, I'm making so much sense right now. I am so right. Like, da da, da, da, da. No, you might think you're making sense and sure, you might be making some logical arguments, but you are literally not in your right mind. You have gotten back into your reptile brain, essentially, and that's where you're functioning from. So what we want to do when you're having a trauma response is to maybe as quickly as possible get your brain back online. And how we do that is going to look different depending on whether or not you are hypoaroused. Like your nervous system has kind of dropped. Like you said, shutting down, you're dissociating or you're hyper aroused and your nervous system is really amped up. There are going to be different strategies that a therapist is going to help you use depending on which direction your nervous system has gone in to help get your whole brain back online so you can be really present in your body and use your full capacity.

C (18:29)

Absolutely. Love it. Love it. It's also just speaking to the way that our brain and our bodies get flooded in a triggered trauma related reaction. And then there's something about this automaticity that happens in the brain and body. I've learned to really look for this kind of subtle difference between something that feels like it's kind of got a momentum of its own that we might reinforce in a triggered state versus a mindful choiceful, like, this is me in the driver's seat using my medial prefrontal cortex making a conscious, intentional choice. Right now. Right. Like in a triggered state, we might feel like there are moments of choice like that, but if we really slow it down, it actually is more like there's a strong current pulling us in a direction and we're reinforcing the current or participating in it. Kind of like you were saying, Felicia, about a strong urge to tell someone off. Right. And I've also learned to look for other classic signs that the medial prefrontal cortex is offline. Like we have a hard time seeing nuance when the medial prefrontal cortex is offline.

A (19:46)

Which is important because if you're in danger and it's like it's adaptive that.

B (19:52)

This lion is chasing me, like nuance here it's like, no run.

A (19:57)

Yeah, exactly.

C (19:59)

It's about time. Yeah. Don't get slowed down by thinking too much.

A (20:06)

And I want to be really clear here. Like, this is. This is a place where I'm not going to be like, you all need to do this. Because, again, working with a therapist to really help address and heal your trauma and build resilience, like, does need to be specific to you. So if what I'm about to say, like, doesn't work for you, that's okay. You're not broken. Help is still out there for you. But one of the things that I've learned as a somatic therapist is how we can kind of like, backwards engineer getting out of a trauma response. Right. So one of the things that can happen when we're in that trauma response is we. We get into black and white thinking. We can't really hold a lot of nuance. It's really hard to do creative problem solving again, because you're just like, I've got to solve this as quickly as possible. If there's a lion chasing me, I don't need to. Like, maybe that's not even the lion, but that doesn't matter. If it looks enough like a lion, I am running. Like, I'm not going to sit here and try to figure it out, because in the time it takes me to do that, that lion could eat me. So I'm just going to imagine it's a lion whether it is or not, because that's the safest thing for me to do. Right. So that's how your body's reacting, and you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm in fight or flight. Some of the things that can really help is moving your body. It can help to actually move your head, to rotate your head and look around your surroundings.

B (21:27)

That's so interesting to summarize. For the non therapists in the room, it kind of sounds like it's instinct versus thinking. So if, you know, prefrontal cortex is like, we have the capability of thought and creative thought and seeing nuance, and we are maybe more kind of grounded in the moment, I guess you could say. And then being able to recognize a trauma response in yourself is you're doing something that maybe you're not consciously doing.

C (21:58)

Is that actually, like. I found that in addition to thinking, there's something even more indicative of your medial prefrontal cortex online, which is like this real mindful noticing that we're capable of when it's online, because thinking can kind of pull us more into our Head more into rumination, more into analytical thinking, which has its own limitations. We're going to be relying on schemas that we already have in our left brain. But when I think of signs that a medial prefrontal cortex is online, like, usually that means someone's got the capacity to really take in the subtleties of some kind of experience they're having. And that's a different quality of experience than thinking about it. It's like, oh, I'm actually taking in the experience I'm having inside. It's almost like being on a balcony and being able to look down and be like, okay, that's happening and that's happening over there. And, okay, there's a sensation here, and whoa, there's all this activity in the mind in the front and then in the back, this is happening. Holy shit. I'm taking this all in right now. That's usually a sign I would look for.

A (23:19)

I agree completely, John. I'm really glad you brought that up, because as soon as you said that, Christy, I was like, well, you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, yeah, like, not exactly. Because when I think about hypervigilance and when I think about having a trauma response, like, some of it can be that, like, hypo aroused, like, really numbed out, really kind of like I'm playing dead, like, everywhere in my body and in my brain. But the hyperarousal is often super thinky, right? It's very, very, very thinky. So, like, having your medial prefrontal cortex online does not necessarily mean there's lots of thinking. If anything, it is that. That perspective. There tends to be peace. There tends to be some calm. There tends to be not so much thinking as there is, like, a deeper knowing. This sense of, like, subtled resonance of. Of wisdom more than thinking. When your brain is, like, all nice and connected and feeling really safe, then you've sunk into something. There can also be a flow state where maybe I am thinking, but I'm also in this place of intuition, in this place of deep knowing. And what John's describing here is like being in the seat of the knower, being in the seat of that awareness so that you are able to notice your sensations, notice your thoughts, notice even, like you said, your schemas. It's like your automatic beliefs and be like, oh, like, I can see that there's reality, and then there's also all the meaning I'm applying to it. And I. I'm not necessarily taking all of this as truth. I'm. I'm able to be curious about it. And I'm able to decide, like, which pieces I'm really going to focus on and which pieces are maybe not so helpful for me right now. So there's this sense of both being engaged with the world and with your life and with your experience without being so attached and gripped onto it.

C (25:14)

I'm so grateful you said curiosity. Yeah, curiosity is a huge one. And I've learned that in order to use curiosity, you have to use your medial prefrontal cortex. And when your survival brain is trying to shut down the prefrontal cortex, I've learned that bringing curiosity to that moment can have a bit of a containing effect on those really. And sometimes it feels like 2%, sometimes I feel like 5%. But that 2 to 5% might give you a little bit of space to stack on another small percent solution. As Janina often talks about stacking 10% solutions. Capacity for curiosity is another sign that there's some connection to the medial prefrontal cortex still available.

A (26:04)

And you can be curious about things that are not related to solving the problem you're trying to solve.

C (26:09)

Yes.

A (26:10)

Right. Like, you might hear this and be like, okay, cool, I'm just going to be more curious about the thing I'm already obsessing about. No, probably, right. That is not what we are recommending here. Like, I would actually recommend that you get curious about your environment. A really, really simple tip. Pick a color, any color, and slowly rotate your head to look around your environment. Let your eyes relax. Receive. Receive what's around you. Again, if you're actually safe, right? Like, we're talking about you having a trauma response in a scenario where you are not actually in immediate danger. If you are in immediate danger, handle it, obviously. And the other thing to note is, like, beginning to heal your nervous system does not mean that you will not have the appropriate responses in actually dangerous situations. We just want to help your nervous system be less reactive to situations where you are not actually under threat so that you can make better decisions. So again, if you are in a situation where you are not actually under threat, slowly rotate your head and look in your environment to see, like, just name for yourself. Like, what are all the things in this room that have this color, right? So I have a lot of like blue in my room. So I could rotate and be like, the couch is blue, that painting is blue, that book on my shelf is blue. And just keep on. Then pick another color, right? And you will likely feel your nervous system kind of begin to unwind a little bit. It really doesn't take much to begin to feel a shift. And like John is saying, you maybe get just like 2% relief, 2% less activated, but then that allows you to stack a little bit more on because maybe you're like, oh, you know what? I actually haven't eaten yet, and I'm. I'm like, really hungry. I need to go eat. Or like, man, I haven't looked outside today. I haven't gone outside today. I'm going to go outside. Right. It allows you to do just maybe one other thing that's gonna bring you down a bit more. And if you stack those things, like minute after minute after minute, day after day after day, year after year, your life gets like, way better. And it's kind of frustrating because you're like, no, I want the thing that's gonna make everything better right now. The truth about healing trauma is it really is about stacking over time.

B (28:26)

Yeah, that's a really good tip, Felicia. And one of the things that I've noticed online as I'm, you know, reading about different people's experiences, especially on their healing journeys, they want to know what type of trauma they have. And that's often a starting point for how do I. How do I deal with this? How do I move forward? So, John, what would you say the different types of trauma are?

C (28:54)

I think of different, like, kind of like umbrellas. One umbrella is what people might typically call capital T trauma, which are more like big events. Another umbrella might be complex, which means the cumulative nature of some kind of overwhelming stress. And then beneath that complex umbrella, I think of developmental as a very particular subset, which specifically speaks to the legacy that was left behind because the overwhelming stress happened during really formative stages of development. Actually, though, I think in a lot of cases, there's a lot of overlap at the same time. Like after a big event, like, it's kind of like Felicia was saying, there's a lot of sensitizing to threat, which then can become its own kind of feedback loop. Or maybe after a big event, like a natural disaster, like, resources aren't mobilized efficiently or quickly enough, and that can lead to an ongoing kind of overwhelming stress afterwards. So I find that, like, while these are like, somewhat useful ways of thinking about it, I think there's also a lot of overlap and nuance. But capital T, single event traumas, people typically think of as some kind of natural disaster or some kind of assault. Really, anything that's just like, really out of the ordinary, out of ordinary day life, I would say. Yeah. I mean, I Can't help but think about like a place like Palestine, which has been war torn for so many decades. And that's their normal life and that's their ongoing cumulative trauma. And it's not a single event war. It's. It's something that's been going on for so long. So that's an example of like some overlap.

A (31:04)

Right. It becomes complex trauma. It also becomes like ways that, that's passed down through families with epigenetics, with like trying to raise children in a place where there's so much instability. Yeah. It may have started as like a capital T trauma, but it becomes over time this complex trauma. And then there's also. Yeah. We can talk about the positionality of being a person in the world, you know, any person in the world where there's persecution happening. Right. Whether that's because of your ethnicity, your ability, your race, your gender identity, your sexuality, your drug use, your mental health issues, like whatever the case may be.

B (31:55)

Yeah.

A (31:55)

I mean, and I'm thinking about how capital T traumas can, like we said, set off a chain of events that makes it really hard for a person to cope and function and can put them at further risks for even more trauma. Right. Like when we look at folks who, who have a history of substance abuse or who are experiencing homelessness, some of those people have experienced a lot of trauma early in life. That developmental trauma which you talked about, what can happen, the things that happen or don't happen in our lives, really early on, they can have a capital T trauma of a really big event happening in their lives, including losing housing. Right. Which is a traumatic experience. And it can put folks in a position where they're then exposed to just daily trauma. So traumas of, of hunger, of, of physical threat of instability. And then it's really hard, it can be very hard to get out of that loop. Right. Really hard to get out of that loop when you're continuing to lack resources.

C (32:53)

Exactly.

A (32:54)

And at that point, turning our head and looking for something green is like, you got bigger fish to fry, Right?

C (33:00)

Absolutely. Yeah. Like a really traumatized nervous system tends to have a lot of reactivity and impulsivity. And that's the nervous system's attempt to try to seek relief or a sense of psychological safety as quickly as possible. And that often can set people up to experience like, recurring challenges that can have their own overwhelming traumatic effect on people. But also under that complex trauma umbrella, under the developmental trauma umbrella, I often think of things like childhood abuse, whether that's physical, sexual or emotional. It's also emotional neglect, which has a really lasting effect on young people going into adulthood. Bullying can also be another ongoing overwhelming traumatic experience kids can go through for a while. Yeah, I love that you said the persecution. That's like another huge one that happens when kids have certain identities and are in certain peer environments or school environments or even just this world in this.

A (34:16)

Country or the adults around them, for crying out loud. Like, we are no longer just worried about kids being mean to other kids, but like grown adults, which is heartbreaking.

B (34:28)

So it kind of sounds like this question is a bit messier than people want it to be.

A (34:32)

I'm glad you brought that up, because I. I'm imagining people are asking this question because they want to know what to do. It's like if I know what kind of trauma I have, then I can know what to do and I can simplify this thing. That probably does feel really messy and hard for me. And. And maybe there's also folks wanting to know if what they're experiencing is a trauma response almost to help guide. Well, what kind of help should I be looking for?

B (35:00)

You know, does my trauma a big enough deal to get help? Which actually leads us to some interesting Reddit stories.

A (35:09)

Maybe we want to get into that. Maybe it's time.

B (35:12)

Yeah, it's time. Great. So this is in the CPTSD community. Do you think all trauma, pain and suffering are the same? This might trigger some of you. Please, skip, I'm asking this question out of pure curiosity. I'm not doing any sort of traumalympics, which I love this term. This is the first time I've heard of it. Traumalympics. Someone told me the hardest pain they've experienced in their life is losing their grandparents. I could not really empathize much. I've seen people getting killed, hit parents, neglecting kids. I feel this is way worse than the priority. I could be wrong. What do you all think? Is the impact of all trauma the same? The person who lost her grandparents, grieved their death and managed to get through her life fairly quickly within a few months time. On the other hand, I know people with complex trauma, having lived a not so great reality and still struggling to manage the symptoms due to neglect and violence. If so, how is the pain the same?

C (36:11)

My autistic brain is wanting to go in so many directions with that question, so I'm trying to reel it in. Well, first, I'm actually kind of reminded that I left out neglect of basic needs under the developmental umbrella subset. It's kind of like we've been speaking to. There's a cumulative nature of all the different vulnerabilities and risk factors and even protective factors in somebody's life. At the same time, though, I'm cautious to not invalidate somebody's experience of a legacy of trauma because I know there's always layers to unpack that might not be as apparent as well about why somebody is really traumatized by something that someone else might be like. Well, that's not as big of a deal as what so and so experienced. I think there's always like layers to uncover. And when we uncover enough layers, it always makes sense. And I've found that often at the root, temperament, like I was saying earlier, really makes a big difference. So does brain type. And also the societal impact of navigating the world with a certain brain type also can have a cumulative stressful impact on somebody. Kind of that persecution piece or the rejection alienation piece. I really love what Janina has said just to. In a really concise way. She says the symptoms tell the story. If someone is having trauma related symptoms, it tells the story already that there are reasons why it was too much for somebody.

A (37:57)

I think there is a difference here between like the trauma response and access to basic human needs and sort of like what is and isn't okay for humans. I don't think it's okay for humans to be violent towards each other. And I think that we should work to end that. That's just like a real thing that some people are going to experience and other people aren't. Right. So whether or not someone's experienced more trauma or had a stronger trauma response is they almost want to separate those two things because it's like, should people have access to food? Should they have access to housing? Should they not experience acts of violence committed against them? Like, yes, period. And like, should we be creating a society where, where it's true that people don't have to experience that 100% then it's not a question of like who's experienced more trauma. It's like, are we taking care of each other? First of all? Right, so that's just like one, one piece of what I feel like is embedded in that question. And does someone have a categorically different life experience when their basic needs are not met, when they are under physical threat than somebody who doesn't have those challenges? Absolutely. But could they both also be having a trauma response to whatever stimuli are happening in their lives? Yes, 100%. And so for me it's, it's not a matter of like having experienced more trauma, I think we could ask like who has had more trauma responses. But that's not necessarily necessarily the one to one ratio with like the different experiences they've had in their lives.

B (39:28)

Right.

A (39:28)

Because like I said earlier, what generates a trauma response in one person will not necessarily generate a trauma response in the other person. So for instance, it's like if you are already super under resourced and then yet another thing happens in your life, like you get in a car accident, one person might walk away from that being like, oh, you know, other things are going well in my life, I'm pretty well resourced. I don't have a trauma response to this. Another person whose life is already in total chaos and they're already struggling, they might be more sensitized, they might have a stronger trauma response to that. Right. So same event, but different responses. So annoying. When therapists are like, it depends. Right. But like there are so many, there's so many different factors here. But yeah, I think with this question it's really important to separate out just should humans even be experiencing these hardships? Like just. No, no. We should be working towards a world where people are not physically violent or violent towards each other. We should be working towards a world where people are housed and where people are fed, period.

B (40:36)

I think what you said John, about if you unpack the layers enough, it'll make sense, tells me what I need to know. And if you're just more predisposed to be. Yeah. Reacting to something with a trauma response because of the period of life that you're in or obviously your past experiences. Like even for this person lost their grandparents, that's objectively a traumatic thing. Like any loss is always going to affect you and last with you. But then we get into like was something traumatic? As in was the thing that happened traumatic or was it the response traumatic? I think that's what's tough too for a non therapist where it's like, is it the thing or is it the response to the thing?

A (41:14)

You know, which one is the trauma donor? Like we can, we can wrap that up. It's 100% the response. And I think like this is one of those things that it. 1 Therapists don't always talk about it this way, so that can be confusing. And then certainly when therapy speak gets into like the general population like this can get muddied even further. But even though we colloquially will say traumatic events or traumatic experiences, we don't mean the events themselves. We are talking about the response. There is some relationship between like Certain events tend to cause trauma responses, but that is not a given. And what you said earlier about all loss is traumatic, I would say no, it's not. Like there is a difference between feeling a lot of sorrow and grief and having a trauma response. Those are not necessarily the same thing. They can both happen, but is not the same thing. Like, I have experienced many losses and not all of them were actually traumatic. Some of them I was grieving and I was filled with sorrow, but I was not having a physiological trauma response.

B (42:26)

I feel like that could be cleared up more because also I. I do think I know quite a bit about mental health for, you know, a non therapist, but that's always something that's kind of confused me. So when we talk about types of trauma, that it's. Yeah, is it like the fight, flight or freeze or is it developmental versus complex? And I think that's where this stuff gets really kind of convoluted for people to understand. Because all therapists are like, oh, it's your response. But then I think the everyday person doesn't really know that. I, you know, I think obviously when you start to research it and you learn more about it, yes, that will make itself apparent. But I don't think that's necessarily clear. And it's certainly not the way it's often referred to. People like, oh, that was traumatic. Like, that's how that word is typically even used.

A (43:11)

Right. It's one of those things where there's like a colloquial meaning and then there's more of like a clinical meaning. And since this is a mental health podcast where we are taking the time to like get actual licensed therapists away in, like, we're giving you like the clinical perspective and how we think of it. And when we say things like complex trauma, we are certainly in those situations, like tying the trauma response to a particular set of events or type of events. But we could also imagine a world in which, let's say someone was very, very well resourced, their nervous system was super robust. They had a lot of resources, but they also had a lot of really hard things happen for them. There's a world in which that person still doesn't have a trauma response to those things. Right. And I want to be clear, I'm not saying that if you have a trauma response to an event, you're somehow weak or it's like your fault that you're having that response, because that's certainly not true. Like you were saying, John, we come into this world with like certain temperaments. We have different, you know, things that happen throughout our lives that are going to either make us more or less resilient. But yeah, I think it's really important for us to like separate out events from responses and understand that when we're talking about trauma, we're talking about responses.

C (44:28)

Right. I'm also just reminded of certain stories I've heard and folks have sat with where they did have a good number of material resources in their lives. They had their basic needs met, but psychologically and emotionally it was really under resourced. And that meant there was a lot of emotional neglect, emotional abuse, really disruptive transitions in their lives where they weren't supported enough. And like, all of that added up to having a real difficult time in adulthood. And these are folks who often struggle with like, but I've got the, I had the resources, I was privileged. Why am I still struggling with this? Other people had it worse. Mine wasn't that bad. And it's like, well, when we really unpack the impact that all of these experiences had in that young version of that person's world, like, we really start to understand, like, that was a lot. It's just, it wasn't so visible to them or the people around them. But the impact was heavy. And it wasn't just one thing. It was like an ongoing day in, day out, multiple things.

B (45:44)

I think it's important to say that just like that heaviness or the too muchness, you know, even if things on the outside look okay and you're the person that has it all together, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that, oh, your mental health is perfectly intact, you know, that's really not how it works at all. Okay, so I have another Reddit example that I would love to hear from both of you on. And this kind of does get to the event versus reaction kind of thing. So I think this will be really helpful in parsing that out a little bit more. This is also in the CPTSD community. Does your trauma dictate what type of you are? Fight, freeze, etc. I have a theory that your trauma probably dictates your trauma type. I was thinking just now about how my trauma comes primarily from other girls and women, often my own age. I didn't usually feel a physical sense of fear for them, often felt like I was desperate to physically fight them. But considering the situation, this would have meant trouble for me in the long run. I think this has developed into a fight complex for me. Growing up, I had to suppress all that anger because I would have been kicked out of school, punished, etc. When people hurt me as an adult, it's hard to not want to defend myself physically, to take back the power. Possibly the freeze or flight response is more common in this. Who are more often physically abused than I was and by people who are much larger or male. This is just a theory, though I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

C (47:11)

I can totally understand where this person's coming from and wanting to theorize in this way. And in some ways it does make sense. Um, I've also learned that it's really the totality of someone's experience in that moment that causes a nervous system to want to adapt in a way that's most likely to bring safety. So I would imagine if whoever posted that were a kid who was smaller, framed, maybe has lived up until that point feeling like everyone around them is terrifying and they don't have a say. If they speak up, they're going to get really hurt. It would probably make more sense to kind of be really small and not rock the boat, not fight. So I think so many things play into what responses are going to feel the most, quote, unquote, safe in a certain context. And it can be even down to somebody's like, physicality and also lived experience up until that point.

A (48:20)

Yeah, I don't know that there is research on this. And if you know of research on this question, like, particularly like, please do let us know because that would be really interesting. But yeah, I'm with John here. I think for better or worse, though, trauma has been studied and though there are some things we know about is such an individual experience. Right. And so maybe, maybe there is some truth to this. And there's almost like typologies of trauma responses that correspond with particular traumatic events. Or. See, now I'm doing it that correspond to particular events that are of a certain type. But I, I don't know about that, but it sounds like what's more important here is this person's experience with, yeah, feeling like, really not connected to her peers and wanting to be connected and being angry and being, you know, feeling the sense of, like, aggression but not being able to experience it. And now as an adult, maybe with more power, feeling those same feelings that she felt as a child, but now feeling more capable of doing that, but also having the recognition that I can't just, like, attack people. Like, that's also not going to work. Yeah, it makes sense that she's trying to make sense of it. I think what can often happen when we're Trying to heal trauma is like there can be this overarching desire to like make sense of it and to philosophize. Over the years I've worked with clients where it's like I want to like, I want to understand this and it's not like a. I want to understand in my body and I want to be curious and I want to get to know. It's like I want to understand, I want to dissect it, I want to name all the different things and I want to da da da da da. And it's like you wanting to think your way through your trauma. Yeah, right. Which might feel a lot safer. Then like we're gonna have to get a bit messier. You're gonna have to get into your body.

B (50:19)

That's like the nature of this question. You want to be able to think through it. Oh, if I have the type, then I can safely navigate. I'll have my definitions. Any kind of way to make something as complex as, as trauma just feel a little bit more right sized so it's less intimidating to balance. Yeah.

C (50:41)

That approach. It's a really understandable response that's driven by a need to feel a sense of control over something that's just so complex and messy. And like I often think of that with like an analytical approach to something really hard and like messy and nuanced. It's like our brains just so want that sense of control. If we just understand it enough and at the same time we can, we can understand something analytically. Yet our instinctual brain and body are still going to have these responses. And that's like a whole other part of our whole other system in our brain.

B (51:26)

100% people think therapy is, is like, I just have to understand this and talk about it enough and then I'll be better. You know, back when I started therapy too, that's what I thought it was. If I talk about this enough, if I think about it enough, it'll eventually go away. You know, I really think that's what a lot of people think therapy, which.

C (51:49)

Is why unfortunately, healing from trauma, recovering from trauma, it's, it's a very incremental process a lot of the time. I mean there can be moments of breakthroughs, especially with some kind of really potent modality like psychedelic assisted therapy, ketamine therapy. Ketamine assisted therapy, brain spotting, EMDR parts work modalities, somatic modalities, somatic approaches that there can be some breakthrough moments. And also it's really important to know it is a very long term process. And it can be very, very incremental.

A (52:29)

Yeah, it's. It sucks to have to deliver this.

B (52:33)

That message.

A (52:35)

That message. Because I, I know of people who have experienced a lot of trauma and it's like, I don't even want to. Like, I know it's affecting me. Like, I can tell, but I just don't even want to go there because it's, it's so much. And I don't know how long it's going to take to feel better. And it's kind of, it's honestly a little bit easier just to stay numb. Like, I just don't even think I.

C (53:00)

Want to do it because the analyzing could be a way of not going there.

B (53:05)

Totally intellectualizing it versus feeling it, you know?

C (53:10)

Yeah, right.

A (53:10)

Because understanding what happened in my personal experience, both as somebody who has had trauma responses to very negative events. Right. And as a therapist who's worked with a lot of people with trauma, like, there really is no thinking your way through it. I've tried personally, you know, I understand what happened. That doesn't help my body in the ways that I hope it would. Right. There's still something left that pure intellectual understanding doesn't address. And that's just how it is.

C (53:47)

Exactly. In addition to the journey being a very long game process, I will say though, like, at the same time, I've seen a lot happen in even a year. Doesn't happen with everybody. I think there's so many factors at play. I think it also depends on how much psychological and emotional safety someone has in their life when they're doing trauma therapy. Also the types of supports in place. But I have seen like incredible progress in even a year with some of the folks I've sat with. So I do want to add that too, that yes, there is still a very long term process. Even in my personal journey. Like sometimes I've been surprised some part of me is getting triggered by some transition in my life and I'm like, I thought we dealt with this the hell.

A (54:42)

Like, I feel like that's, that's like the title of the book on trauma is like, I thought we already dealt with this. You know what I mean?

C (54:51)

Right. But somehow like the, the way everything's playing out is just bringing stuff up again.

A (55:00)

And it's not that things can't get better. Right. I'm really glad that you said that, John, because we were kind of leaning towards like, this is a long process and it's like, yes, that is true, but it's not forever. And it's not like there can't be faster improvements. It's like on the journey to healing your trauma, like I would say it's probably not going to be 100% over. They're always going to be like, you're going to be a human. And experiences keep on happening and they keep on, you know, making you look over here and look over there and it might connect to trauma in a way that you didn't expect. But your life can get better. It can get better relatively quickly. There can be improvements that happen, but like you said, it's going to be incremental and those improvements will stack on each other. Right. And a lot of times with trauma, yeah, there are some modalities where we like directly address the trauma. But in my experience, a lot of it has to do with like taking care of yourself in really basic ways that you're like, wait, this is healing from trauma? It's like, yeah, like the impact trauma has on us can sometimes be we don't take care of ourselves and then that makes it harder, that makes us less resilient and makes us more susceptible to having trauma responses to different stimuli. And so part of healing from trauma can be like, let's get really, really basic. And your thinky brain is going to be like, but wait, I'm not working on trauma. It's like, no, you actually are because you're, you're making yourself more resilient. You know, you're caring for yourself in a way that maybe you've been trying to think your way out of this, but actually like, you're right here, right now. We've got to take care of that.

B (56:40)

That's beautiful.

C (56:41)

It really depends on what's available in someone's life. The amount of psychological, emotional safety in someone's life, the supports and resources they've got in place, like all of that can really have a strong effect on the movement that can happen in someone's recovery and healing journey. And even a year, I would say.

A (57:05)

Yeah, I would say with like regular weekly therapy, you can start to see improvements. One of the things that's generally true about trauma is yes, there can be trauma that happens as a result of a natural disaster or a non relational event. But most of our trauma happens in and through relationships with other human beings, which I'm shocked we've gotten this far and actually haven't talked about this before.

C (57:30)

Yeah, it's over.

A (57:30)

Like, how did we get here? Okay, we're getting, getting.

B (57:34)

You guys didn't cover everything about trauma.

A (57:37)

Literally everything about trauma.

B (57:38)

This episode.

C (57:39)

Sorry, Julie.

A (57:41)

Most Trauma. Most trauma occurs in and through relationships. So one of the things that's true about being in therapy for trauma is that part of the way that can get healed is literally through having a supportive relationship with your therapist. And to be clear, this doesn't always mean that you're going to have zero conflict with your therapist. One of the things that I would say to my clients early on is, you know, this is a relationship between two human beings, you and I. And relationships, if they last long enough, are gonna have friction. There are going to be ruptures. There will be someday again, if you're with me for a long time where I don't get it right with you, somehow I'm not there for you in the way that you hoped or wanted me to be. And there's an opportunity here for you to say that there's an opportunity here for us to be in that experience together. That doesn't mean me rushing to apologize. Sometimes there's an apology warranted, but sometimes it's actually just really important to be in the discomfort and not rush in to try to, quote, unquote, fix my client's experience. Yeah, rush in, oh, I'm so sorry. And then they have to be like, oh, oh, it's okay.

B (58:49)

It's okay.

A (58:50)

I just. No, it's like sometimes we need to be in the place where they're like, you. I'm really angry at you, Felicia. That was really hard. And I think you did X, Y, Z. And it's like, okay, I've got to be able to stand there with them. I'm trained to do that. Like, that's. That's part of being a therapist. Especially like if you're a psychodynamic therapist and you're a relational therapist, is to be in that space with your clients. And so having that relationship with your therapist where they can move through ruptures and help repair with you can be so healing. Totally. Yeah. For the relational trauma you may have.

C (59:31)

Experienced, oftentimes, too, when people have had really injuring relational experiences, especially over and over again or prolonged, or from some of the most significant people in their lives, there can be this really implicit, kind of subtle thing that happens in people where even just the relationship itself is really triggering, even before any friction, before any ruptures happen. And this can happen in so many ways. Like, one way this might happen is like one part of somebody is really craving that closeness, but it feels really threatening. It brings up all these implicit memories of what could happen. And another part of them gets really protective, maybe vigilant about any missteps or perceived missteps. Another thing that can happen that I've seen is, like, even just the attention and the sense of intimacy can feel really, really vulnerable, and that can bring up some protections. Sometimes the connection can bring up a lot of implicit memories around rejection, Just the connection alone, and that can be really painful and bring up all kinds of other reactions that come into the therapy space with the client. So that's why I really love the TIST approach, because it really speaks to all these complex things that can happen that can feel really contradictory at times or maybe confusing to somebody, but it really gives a map for how to navigate this with a lot of sensitivity. It really equips therapists to be prepared for these kinds of inner conflicts in the client.

A (61:25)

Yeah.

B (61:26)

And I think that's absolutely debunking the myth that therapy is for people who are weak, because it's actually such a brave thing to engage in this kind of relationship and engage in this kind of work and revisit very, very difficult things to revisit.

A (61:43)

There's basically no other type of relationship like this on the planet. Like, a therapist is a whole human being bringing their whole 100% humanness to the relationship. And then they're also bringing their training, their experience, their dedication to your healing, and they're doing work outside of the therapy session to make sure that they're equipped to show up in that way. Where else does this happen? You know, it's truly unique and special.

B (62:18)

So, John, we always like to ask at the end of our episodes for what you really think, you know, if you could share something to the world, John's take on trauma, what would it be?

C (62:30)

Absolutely. I think two things really come to mind. One thing I wish I could say more, but just saying this so directly often can be understandably, really triggering for parts of people. But the thing I would love to say is, like, be gentle, be patient. This is deep, incremental work that can just be so triggering for the parts of people who are like, we've been suffering for so long.

A (62:59)

So long.

C (63:00)

Like, patience. The are you talking about?

A (63:04)

Totally. So there might be times in a session where you're like, I. I want to say that, but I have, like, I'm skillful as a therapist, and I know you, so I know that this is not the time.

C (63:16)

Yeah, right.

A (63:17)

But, like, that's what you're feeling. You're just like, oh, my God.

C (63:20)

Like, I mean, it can. It can land in a very invalidating way for some part. Who's Like, I need this suffering to end as soon as possible. Understandably. Understandably. Another thing I really would love to say that I'm not always able to is that therapy as we traditionally think about it is so western. And the quote unquote, founding people, founding fathers are like white CIS straight men. And like, there's so much more that's possible than what we're traditionally taught and what traditionally makes its way into the therapy space. There's so much ancient indigenous wisdom about healing and the power of community, the power of like ritual, rhythm, movement. A lot of somatic modalities have taken from indigenous wisdom that's been there about our bodies and our nervous systems. Something maybe to summarize around that is like community is just so healing. So many ways to find healing are available beyond traditional therapy as well. And I know for trauma survivors, community and relationships often can just be really complex to navigate. But I so wish that more people got access to the right types of connections at the right time, where it felt safe enough and maybe that cracked open more and more and more space for more safer and safer connections and community.

B (65:15)

Yeah.

C (65:15)

Just speaking from experience, like chosen families in my journey have taken my healing journey to whole new levels and they happen to be like, at the right time, the right fit for my system to feel safe enough to take in these connections. And I just wish that for everybody.

A (65:34)

Oh, I'm beaming over here, John. Like my heart is so touched by that and I'm right there with you. I relate to that so much. I think it can be so scary when you've had all these trauma responses and so many of them have happened through relationships. But you know, it can be hard to hear this when you're experiencing so much suffering and when you're so afraid of it happening again. But I think our message here to you is like, we're talking about like little tiny percentage shifts, you know, however you can get some started is great. And whether that's starting with a one on one therapist and eventually branching out to finding communities that feel supportive, or it is like, I don't know, just, just testing the waters. Anything counts for some people.

C (66:26)

It's an animal. Maybe that's like the next.

A (66:29)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And thank you also for bringing in a perspective outside of traditional western therapy that like, there are traditions that are much, much older, that are super diverse in terms of like their, where they came from, their legacies. I love that you brought in ritual and how healing that can be for folks who have experienced trauma. Yeah, I'm just really like feeling this in my heart right now. We hate to say goodbye to you now. I'm sure our listeners feel that way too. I know, I know. But if folks want to learn more about you and your work, if they want to stay in touch, how can they find you?

C (67:12)

Yeah, I think the easiest place would be my website, which is johnlee mft.com and that's John with no h j o n l E-E-M f t.com I.

B (67:24)

Love how it rhymes side down.

C (67:26)

Yeah. And it's like three letters.

B (67:28)

Three letters. Three letters. So satisfying.

C (67:31)

So satisfying for my autistic brain. It's like 3, 3, 3.

A (67:35)

Boom.

B (67:35)

This is the neatest thing that's actually been said on this episode.

A (67:39)

I think John has an amazing website. Like, even if you're not shopping for a therapist, it's very cool.

B (67:46)

I love it.

A (67:47)

It's beautiful to look at. The information is so helpful and thank you for tuning in today. If you found this helpful, please do leave a review and rating. If you know someone who's dealing with trauma who would benefit from this episode episode, please do share it with them. And thank you so much for tuning in. We really do appreciate you listening and giving us your time and we hope that you find something valuable here today.

C (68:12)

Thank you all so much. It's such a pleasure to be here.

A (68:16)

Oh, we're so grateful. That's all for this week's episode.

B (68:19)

If this conversation resonated with you, the best way to support us is to follow, rate and review the show. Wherever you're listening right now. Are you watching watching on YouTube? Subscribe and drop us a comment.

A (68:30)

Have a friend in line who could use the advice in this episode? Text them the podcast. You can also connect with us on Instagram yttpodcast. We want to hear from you, so slide into our DMs with your mental health questions. They just might be featured on a future episode.

B (68:47)

What yout Therapist Thinks is hosted by me, Christy Plantinga and Felicia Keller Boyle. This show is brought to you by BestTherapist.com a therapist directory that vets therapists so you can focus on fit, not quality. You can find your best therapist@besttherapist.com Our.

A (69:03)

Show is produced by the team at Podvision.

B (69:06)

See you next time.