A (1:59)

We're so glad you're here.

C (2:00)

Now let's get into the episode.

A (2:02)

Welcome back to what your Therapist thinks. I'm your host, Christy Plantinga, and I've been in a lot of therapy.

C (2:08)

And I'm Felicia Keller Boyle, licensed somatic therapist in California.

A (2:13)

Lindsay Bryan Podvin, lmsw, is a certified financial therapist, author of the Financial Anxiety Solution, and founder of Mind Money Balance, a financial wellness business focusing on the intersection of mental health and money. Her insights have been Featured in Vox, CNN, Real Simple, CNBC, NPR, Bustle, HuffPost, and more. Lindsay holds a degree in sociology from Michigan State University and a master's in social work from the University of Michigan with certificates in financial social work and financial therapy. She lives with her partner and their dog on the occupied land of the Anishinaabe, also known as Michigan. Lindsay, welcome to the show.

B (2:55)

Thanks, Christy. I'm very happy to be here.

A (2:58)

Yes, and today we are talking about your specialty, which is financial anxiety. And I think we've all at one point or another repressed thinking about our finances like crazy because talking about money, thinking about money, it's stressful and it's often taboo. So we just have the perfect person here today to help us all through this. So thank you so much for people.

B (3:24)

Yeah, I'm very excited to talk about this.

A (3:26)

So to start off, what causes financial anxiety?

B (3:29)

Oh, great question. It's a very simple answer and it's very succinct. Like Felicia can probably imagine, there is no one cause of anxiety and there's no one cause of financial anxiety. And I appreciate, Christie, that you mentioned that all of us have experienced financial anxiety. Financial anxiety, just to back up, is feeling nervous, worried, anxious or on edge about your money and having the those worried thoughts impact the way that you behave with your money. So financial anxiety might look like avoiding looking at your bank account or double checking how much money you have in your bank account. It might look like avoiding talking to your friends, partner, roommates about money because you think it is awkward or doubling down and talking about money all the time with those people because you need them to know how you are thinking and feeling about money at all times. And while anxiety is a healthy, normal emotion for all of us to experience, financial anxiety is okay so long as it is time limited and isn't impacting our ability to do the things that we need to do with our money. So, for example, it would make perfect sense if I were a little bit nervous if I got a new contracting job and my invoice wasn't paid on time and I was like double checking that my invoice system was talking to their bank account. Like, that would be a healthy, oh, my stomach's a little nervous because of this. I'm going to double check. I can't figure it out, so I'll send an email type of response to anxiety. Whereas unhealthy could, you could argue all day about where that line is. But I would argue that much like in mental health, unhealthy is when it impacts your ability to live your life, take care of yourself, do the tasks that you need to do at home, at work, or with your family. So to use that same example, financial anxiety might be harmful if you are so insistent on checking and double checking and quadruple checking that that invoice is connected to the person who is going to pay you that you are emailing them multiple times a day, you're calling them, you're texting them, you're following up, and you end up burning that relationship. And after you finish your particular work engagement with them, they're like not going to work with you again, because that was very uncomfortable for us. So as far as what causes it, it could be, honestly, almost anything. I think it's important to name that we live. You know, the three of us are talking from the United States. We live in a society that has gossamer thin social safety nets. And that anxiety is very, very real. Whereas, in other words, I don't love this term, but I'll use it for the purpose of our conversation. In other developed nations, there are far more resources for the people who live there. There's far more financial dignity and respect given. So the amount of financial anxiety I think that Americans experience is higher. And it also makes sense that it's higher because we all know people who have been victim to the system that is fundamentally broken. And the reason that I want to point that out is that it makes perfect sense that you'd be worried about whether or not you are going to make rent if the system is designed to evict you within 30 days. Or it makes perfect sense that you are worried about not having enough gas in your car. Because most of our employment places don't have any nuance or understanding for when your paycheck comes and when you can put gas in the tank. So if you're running 20, 30, 40 minutes late or you don't have enough gas money to get to work, you might be at risk of losing your job. So I think just like foundationally, there are really good reasons to be financially anxious. Other reasons that people might experience financial anxiety could be from the way that they were raised. They could have been raised in a household where things were tight financially, so they absorb the message that it's important to count every penny and be very diligent about what money comes in and one money goes out. I think the biggest myth about financial anxiety is that people who have some sort of dollar amount or dollar figure no longer feel financially anxious.

C (7:47)

When we start talking about money, it really Just connects to everything else. And I'm so glad that you are a financial therapist. I wish more therapists would dig into this topic. And this is something that I always talked with my clients about really explicitly. I thought it was really odd that we would have all of these really intimate conversations, but then so rarely would we talk about money directly. But that's something I really wanted to normalize in my practice. I love how you just kind of acknowledge the impact of living in a country with, like you said, gossamer, thin social safety net. Like that is put so perfectly. And so, yeah, like that is just the water we swim in as Americans, so that we're in a culture, an economy where there aren't a lot of protections and just that is enough to like, give you a very reasonable amount of anxiety. You pair that with the particulars of your own life and it can just so easily become really, really hard to deal with. I also appreciate, Lindsay, how you distinguished between having a sort of appropriate, for lack of a better word, amount of anxiety or reaction to something that's going on versus the sort of more extreme response that becomes almost obsessive where you really can't do other things in your life and it's starting to actually create even more problems as a result. It's not just a sort of helpful response to a problem and therefore you're addressing it, but it starts to actually be so much anxiety that now it's creating new problems that didn't exist before.

A (9:22)

So is it possible then for someone to come from a very wealthy background, never having to worried about money, and still have financial anxiety?

B (9:31)

Yes, absolutely. So we don't have exact data on this. And at the same time, I think it's fair to make an informed guess around inherited behaviors and inherited traumas. So what we know, you know, doing somatic work, that we inherit things from our parents, our grandparents, and our great grandparents, even if we didn't personally experience them. So, for example, grandchildren of grandparents who perhaps had to flee their country for safety reasons may experience the same types of physical or somatic responses to a stressor that their grandparent may have experienced, even if they personally did not experience it. The reason that I think it's important to name that is even if you were raised in a household where you were financially comfortable and safe and secure, you could have lineage in your family where there was some financial instability or financial anxiety. Particularly if you have lineage where your family were refugees or asylees in any way, shape or form. I think it's imperative to remind Ourselves that if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food, clothing, shelters, like all on the bottom. And in our society, we need money to get those things. So reminding ourselves that, like, it is very much a basic need in order to care for ourselves. And then I also think it's important to know that even if you come from multiple generations of financial stability and financial privilege and you still experience financial anxiety, it's not that there's something wrong with you or you, like, inherited this weird anxiety gene. It's that again, there are many other systems that could impact your relationship with money. It could be that a close friend of yours experienced financial stress or financial trauma and you soaked up some of that messaging. It could be that in school you were told time and time again the importance of getting a degree and getting a good job so you don't end up flipping burgers somewhere. Right. So there are many different places that we can absorb financial anxiety. Both the things that we inherit and kind of, Felicia, using some of your language, like the water that we swim in.

C (11:39)

Yeah. And it makes me think that even if you're a person who has grown up with many, many generations of passed on wealth, there might be anxieties that come with that, like making sure you don't lose it or the pressure to perform that you already alluded to.

B (11:53)

And financial survivor's guilt, I don't think we give a lot of airtime to that because there's so much, like, ickiness around. How is it that I have enough when others have so little that there's a lot of financial survivor's guilt that I see in my practice and with clients.

C (12:12)

When you are a person who grew up without a lot of money, which I am personally, and you want to change socioeconomic classes, first of all, that's really fucking hard. Like, if you're a person out there who's trying to change socioeconomic classes, it is not easy. Like, oftentimes you didn't grow up in a world where you got taught financial literacy. You might have inherited all sorts of ways of approaching money that actually don't help you grow wealth. And then there's the reality of what it means to be a person who is starting to shift out of one socioeconomic class to another. Not that, like one's better, but it's just like a shift. Right. While you still have family members and loved ones who are, like you said, in some cases relying on that gossamer thin Social Security net. And any form of survivor's guilt can be really, really hard I'm glad you brought that up.

B (13:03)

Yeah.

A (13:04)

So I am curious how the guilt and shame stuff plays into financial anxiety, why money is so taboo. And I think, think what I've just noticed generally is if guilt and shame are involved, taboo comes kind of with it. So can you speak more to how those emotions play into financial anxiety and financial wellness?

B (13:28)

For sure. So guilt and shame, just a brief reminder for your listeners. Guilt is external. I did something bad, I made a mistake. Shame is internal. I am bad, I am a mistake. So the money version of this would be guilt is oops, I made a mistake with my money, my bad. Whereas shame is, oh, I'm bad with money. Money isn't for people like me. I'll just never understand it. And so we can deal with guilt a little bit more easily than we can deal with shame. Because when we experience shame, we take on whatever that negative language is and make it some sort of attribute about ourselves. And it's really hard to, to push up against that. As far as the taboo of it all, we get messaging constantly. And it's also very confusing. If you're in high school, you might be getting messages like, it's important to go to school and get a degree, so you get a good job. But what is not said there is how much a college degree cost. Who can afford it, who cannot afford it. What do you mean when you say a good job? Are we talking a dollar amount? Are we talking some sort of class indicator? So there's a lot of stuff that goes unsaid when we talk about money. And we also infer a lot. So if we hear our parent or caregiver say something like, money doesn't grow on trees, we might not know exactly what it is they're trying to convey to us. And we often get messages from a very young age that money is taboo. So if a kiddo says, why do we eat here? Or are we poor? Do we have money? Right? They might just be like generally kind of asking a question. And we respond most likely with like, shh. We don't talk about that. That's really rude. That's impolite. And similarly, even as kiddos get older, they might ask a question like, why do we live in a different neighborhood? Or why do we drive? And so and so takes the bus. And there's so much discomfort around class. In our country, we love to pretend that everyone is in this so called middle class. There have been studies done again and again. You ask almost anyone in America what they think their class is, almost everyone says Middle class. We have a deep cultural tie to the vision of what middle class is or what it means. It means to work hard. It means to care about your family. It means to be responsible and being a contributing citizen. It means you're not getting a handoff from the government, and you're not so rich that you can't relate to your neighbors. Right? There's a lot of stuff that we really pile on, and then the guilt and shame of it all is also constant. Guilt and shame can also be enforced or be reinforced when we judge ourselves, when we judge others. So somebody might take a nice vacation and post on Instagram, and we instantly judge ourselves. Why can't I afford that? What's wrong with me? We went to the same school, we're the same age, and we jump to conclusions because we have no idea how that person afforded it or paid for it. Right? We can't know whether or not it was like they work in an industry where they get a vacation as a bonus, or maybe they put it on a credit card and don't care that they're paying 25% interest. Right? So our brains try to make meaning of the pictures that we are given, but when it comes to money, we are given very few clues. So our brain is constantly jumping to conclusions, which only further feeds guilt and shame.

C (17:08)

You've been in this world for a while now, helping people with financial anxiety. From what you've seen from your clients, do you think it's gotten worse, or do you think the impact of things like social media has increased financial anxiety like the example you just gave there? Have you noticed a difference for your clients? Are there any indications, Are there any signs, Signs in terms of your work with clients that things like social media is getting bombarded with, like, obvious displays of wealth negatively impacting people who feel like they can't access that or like they should be able to access it? You know, I was thinking about this a while back, like, when I was really young, before I started having to go to a school in a much nicer part of town. Like, I don't remember being as aware of the things that I didn't have. It wasn't until going to another neighborhood where I was like, oh, that's a thing I don't have. Because when I was just with all of my peers in, like, the same neighborhood where we all shared the same socioeconomic class, it was like, yeah, I'm satisfied with my life. And so I'm curious, as your clients are on social media, potentially seeing all these different displays of wealth. Is that changing how they relate to money and how they experience financial anxiety?

B (18:19)

Really good question. So I would again pull from a different study that didn't specifically address money, but I think we can probably assume similar impact. So there was a study done about people's self esteem and how social media impacted their positive self worth or negative self worth. And what they found was basically social media just amplified whatever experience they were already having. So if they had positive self regard, they felt good about their life, they had a good social network in real life, then being on social media media reinforced that. When they saw their friends doing those things, they felt like, oh, that's so nice. Even if I wasn't invited, et cetera. If you were experiencing negative self worth or low self esteem and you went on social media and you saw people doing things without you, you would feel more isolated, more excluded, and more unkind toward yourself. I would imagine that it's probably similar when it comes to our relationship with money and our relationship with social media. It is much easier to let something like roll off your back. If you are feeling comfortable with your relationship with money. You have your own financial goals and they are rooted in your values and in your belief system. So that when you do see somebody who posts a vacation, you are better able to look at it as good for them, not they took something from me. Right. You're able to go, oh my gosh, they went to Italy. That's amazing. I'm saving up to go hiking out in Wyoming and I can't wait for that trip. So this is me kind of imagining what it might look like.

C (19:57)

I love the direction you're going in and I think I really want to highlight what you just said because I think this is so important for our listeners is knowing what you want.

B (20:07)

Yes.

C (20:08)

And being able to confidently say that. I'm working towards that. And maybe like what's possible is maybe you can't move the needle very quickly, maybe you can't move it like in really big jumps. But just knowing what you want and feeling like that's aligned with your desires because you're so right. When you see somebody who's getting to do something in their lives that you can assume brings them joy, if you know what you want and you know that you're on track for something like that, then you get to feel like excitement and joy on the other person's behalf. You get to feel that compersion.

B (20:41)

Yeah.

C (20:42)

Conversion is that sympathetic joy when you see someone else having a good time that you're able to Say, like, I'm so happy for you because, like you said, it doesn't take something away from me. Yeah, there's a term for it in Pali. I think it's mudita, which is that sympathetic joy. It's one of, like, the qualities that folks who meditate in a certain tradition are trying to, like, cultivate is that sense of, like, sympathetic joy. And what's so beautiful about that sentiment is getting into a place where there is enough to go around, where, like, my ability to generate, like, joy and happiness in my life isn't harmed by your ability to generate joy and happiness in your life.

A (21:22)

Okay, so I have a question for

B (21:25)

you, because I think when we talk

A (21:28)

about financial anxiety, a lot of times it's the bros, like the finance bros, coming in with solutions. And they're like, well, do you have a Roth 401K? What's your budget? Are you spending X percent on your rent? And it all becomes solutions. When you hear advice like that, where it's all just like, well, what's your plan? What is your response to that?

B (21:48)

So anxiety, generally speaking, doesn't like uncertainty. Right? When we don't know what to expect, it is more likely that we will be nervous about that thing, which I think most of us can understand. So when it comes to financial anxiety, it makes sense that a lot of us would jump to conclusions of, how do I solve this problem? By kind of consuming the information from the finance bros from the personal finance space of how to. And what I often find happen is that a lot of my clients are actually incredibly well versed in the how to's of money. They can tell you how many months you're supposed to have in an emergency fund. They can tell you what a good credit score is. They can tell you how much they're supposed to be saving for retirement and what a good match is and, like, what step to do things in. And yet that doesn't always lead to behavior change or a decrease in financial anxiety.

C (22:39)

Wait, can I jump in real quick? Because you just, like, you lit something up in my brain. This reminds me so much of diet culture.

B (22:47)

Yes, of course, they're the same. Wait, is diet culture financial anxiety? Yes. Yes. 1,000%. Yes. So to self disclose a little bit, I struggled with an eating disorder for many years when I was younger. And when I started working on my relationship with money, I was experiencing being triggered again because so much of the messaging was rigidity. This is the only way you can do it. And if you do it in a different way, you're Bad. And that's when I was like, full body was like, red flag. Something is wrong. This isn't working for me. And really rethinking how I came to find, if not peace, peace enough with my body and my relationship with food and movement. So, yes, you're spot on.

C (23:35)

One of the things I've heard about diet culture and one of the things that people who are fat phobic will assume is that people who are fat, who have bigger bodies, like, don't know that much about health and dieting. And it's like so often the exact opposite.

B (23:50)

Right.

C (23:51)

And it makes so much sense to me that with money it would be similar. It's like, okay, if you have financial anxiety, it's may not be because, like, you're uninformed. You might be super informed, but that doesn't change like the emotional relationship. And we can throw all of the strategies and tactics, whatever, you could have a big old fat pile of money sitting there. But that won't necessarily mean that you're not anxious because that's like a whole different category of work that needs to be done. We're not saying that like strategies around improving your material finances are bad, but we're saying that addressing that is not the same thing as addressing the anxiety itself. There needs to be a different approach and solution for that.

B (24:34)

Correct. And, and what often happens is people assume if I hit X, Y, Z milestone, then my anxiety will go away and it becomes very distressing and upsetting when they reach that financial milestone and the anxiety still exists and you like, never arrive.

C (24:52)

Right. That's gotta be so the frustrating thing. It's like you set goal after goal after goal and there's no relief. You maybe get like a temporary hit and then immediately you start worrying about, but wait, what happens if I lose it? Or what happens if I can't hit the next goal?

B (25:08)

Right.

C (25:09)

The good news about that to me is that's just so deeply human. It just happens to be about like food or body or money or whatever. But deeply, deeply human.

B (25:20)

Yes, absolutely.

A (25:21)

Okay, I want to get to Reddit because I am dying.

B (25:25)

Oh my gosh. Can't wait.

A (25:26)

Okay, so obviously we want to discuss solutions knowing that's this stuff is so nuanced. I'm sure it's so personalized, but at least some things that people can take away. Because I did try to find stories that were representative of things in my mind that seemed like pretty common scenarios with some of this stuff. So I'm just going to start reading and then I want to Know what you think. So this is in the subreddit Personal finance. I'm doing okay on paper, but still feel weirdly anxious about spending any money. I'm in my late 20s and for the first time in my life my finances are fine. Not amazing, not rich, but fine. I have a steady job, no credit card debt, and I've managed to save a decent emergency fund. Nothing crazy, but enough that if something breaks, I'm not panicking. And yet I still feel stressed every time I spend money. Last night I was sitting on the couch playing on Rolling Riches and my bank app sent one of those weekly summaries. I looked at my balances and thought okay, objectively this is fine. Then five minutes later I was arguing with myself about whether I should order takeout or just make eggs. For some context, I grew up in a pretty money is always tight kind of household. Even now when things are stable, my brain still acts like every non essential purchase is a mistake I'll regret later. My car needs new tires soon, my laptop is starting to slow down and my dentist told me I probably need some work done this year. I can afford these things. I literally have the money sitting there, but every time I think about actually spending it, I get this tight feeling in my chest like I'm doing something irresponsible. I keep telling myself that's what the savings are for, but emotionally it still feels like I'm breaking some rule. On paper, my finances look way healthier than they've ever been in my head. I still feel like I'm one bad decision away from messing everything up. Did anyone else go through this phase after they finally got a bit of financial stability? How did you retrain your brain to stop treating every expense like a crisis?

B (27:25)

Oh my gosh. Well I have so much empathy for that person and I would just say to them one that I hear this literally all the time. This frustration and this inability. Kind of like we were just talking of. Wait, I don't understand. I thought when I had the emergency fund, had extra savings that then I would feel less anxious. Yet on paper they have enough money for an emergency. It sounds like they are contributing to their retirement. They are making sure that they can make ends meet and have a cushion for if and when life happens. And what I often find here is they're taking that self awareness of. I grew up in a household where things were tight. I know my brain is responding to this thing, but what do I do with it? Felicia, I'm sure you can imagine there's a few things that we could do with a person like this to help them approach it. One is just kind of building a bridge between their current thoughts and where they want to be when it comes to their money. So the reason I find like a lot of money manifestations or mantras are really well intentioned but don't work that well is because it's a big leap for our brain to go from I don't have enough money to survive to repeating to ourselves, I am awash and a fountain of wealth, right? Like that is just a huge jump for our brain and our brain's gonna go, that is a lie. So instead for this person, I might extend like a little bit of compassion and empathy for why they think they should get the eggs instead of the takeout and then thinking about where they would want themselves to be. So that mantra might not be I'm awash in a fountain of wealth, but it might be. It makes sense that because of the way you grew up, you feel it's important to hold on tightly to money because that is something you equ. Security and you are safe enough to order takeout for dinner tonight and enjoy the meal that you get. Like giving yourself that permission to kind of bridge that gap. But I think so often the advice, Kristy, you mentioned, like, oh, people want the advice. The advice would be like, oh, go take a five star vacation and see how it feels. It's like, that's gonna be a big old jump. Some people might be able to do it, but for a lot of us, we need to kind of stair step into it. And then the other thing I like to do with folks like this, and I've had one of these for 12 plus years, a fun money fund. It's basically a grown up allowance. And every single month I'm allowed to spend my fun money however I want. And that means I can save up for something that I want or it means I can blow it all that day, it does not matter. But practicing giving yourself permission to enjoy spending money just for the fun of it. I usually like to listen for like what they like to do for fun and use that as a jumping off point. Like if somebody really loves bird watching, like giving themselves permission to download the app that you do have to pay a monthly fee on and like, hey, that's actually going to be just fine. But for a person like this, it sounds like their identity and their hobby has been to be quote unquote, good with money. So my invitation to them would be like, what do you like? How do you have fun what are things that bring you pleasure and joy? And practice spending, like, a nominal amount, whatever that is to you, $10, $20, something like that, on that particular hobby. And giving yourself full permission that you might make a mistake. You might buy a book that you end up hating. You might buy a crochet kit and decide crocheting isn't for you. And giving yourself permission to practice nurturing other aspects of your identity and practice spending money on it, too. And the idea there is that then you can give yourself permission to both make a mistake that won't impact you in a big way because you will make a mistake and it's okay, and to practice making those mistakes. And the other thing is to start associating not just saving money with a reflection of worth or identity or goodness, but also spending money as an act of joy and care, you know, tending to yourself. So those are the couple of things that come up.

C (31:32)

Love that. Especially the permission to make a mistake. I think when you grew up in a home where money was tight, you really couldn't waste any money, right? Like, you literally couldn't. It was so precious. And I think when you're in a place where you're. You've had that background and now you can waste money. I mean, I guess there's also, like, a moral thing around this, too. I think it, like, hints at it. Like, our puritanical ancestry roots. Yeah, yeah. Our puritanical heritage as Americans, this culture is steeped in that. Even if you're not from, like, a European background, it's still, like, everywhere in the culture. And so I think there's a lot of moralism around not wasting. And so if you're in that culture, plus you grew up in a home where there really wasn't room for that, it can feel really, really scary to consider spending money on something when you're not 100% sure that you're really, really going to like it or it's going to be really good. Or it's like, I could just eat eggs because I have eggs, and that's fine. And you just keep on telling yourself that, like, it's fine. I don't have to do this. I don't really need that. I'm going to put that back on the shelf. I'll do that later. I don't really need to go to that dance class or buy that shirt. And I think for people who are maybe so far in that extreme of restriction, giving yourself little ways where you can, quote, unquote, waste money on something small. I remember I Had a friend who would always go to the same restaurants and order the same thing because they knew they liked it and they didn't want to take the chance to order something that they didn't know they would like and potentially waste the money. So I gave them a challenge, and I was like, well, the next time you go to a restaurant, try ordering something you haven't ordered before. And then if you don't like it, order the thing you do.

A (33:25)

Like, yeah.

C (33:26)

Like, buy two meals. And it's like, this is 100%, quote, unquote wasteful, but it's like, something you can actually afford this. You're not going to, like, buy the second meal and then lose your housing. Like, there's enough wiggle room that you can tolerate this. And just so you can get that exposure of, like, oh, I'm allowed to make a mistake with money.

B (33:46)

Yes. Okay. I'm obsessed. So two things that jumped out at me is, like, this. How much denying pleasure we associate with, like, being morally good. Right. That's everything that I heard in those examples. This reminds me of, you know, doing your part to try and combat climate change. I don't know if we all have had this moment where you're like, oh, my gosh, I. I threw something out that was compostable. I'm such a bad person every day. Right, Right.

C (34:15)

Like, every day I'm like, I think I breathed too much air today.

B (34:19)

I know, I know, I know.

C (34:20)

I'm so sorry.

B (34:21)

Like, oh, my gosh. I. I can't believe. Right. Just the amount of guilt and shame we put on ourselves for, like, this teeny, tiny thing.

C (34:29)

And also, being women, like, I just. I feel like that's a part of it. This conversation, too. I'm like, women restricting pleasure. It's dangerous for women to feel pleasure. But, like, it's just like a firestorm. There's, like, at least five different things.

B (34:44)

Yes.

C (34:44)

Happening.

B (34:45)

Yes. Yes.

C (34:46)

To create this, like, scenario.

B (34:48)

Yes, exactly.

C (34:49)

One really goofy example from my own life is I really wanted a Roomba. I had a roommate, he had a Roomba. He moved out. He took the Roomba. And I was like, man, I really miss that Roomba. That was so nice. And I really wanted it, but it was expensive and I wasn't making a lot of money. And I just remember, like, months. And there's so many things that I've wanted that I literally waited years and years and years and years and years to get. And some of that was because I didn't have the money, but some of it was because I was afraid to spend the money because I thought something bad would happen if I spent the money. And then in this whole Roomba situation, I finally was like, okay, so what are the chances that I buy the Roomba? And I'm like, many years into the future, my life is a mess. And I'm like, it was that fucking Roomba. Like, it all started with the Roomba, and now it's all. And if I just hadn't bought that Roomba, I wouldn't be here today. And it's like, yeah, that's insane. Like, that's not how that works.

B (35:47)

Yeah, feel you okay?

A (35:50)

I want to move on to something that according to the Internet, 30% of Americans have, and that is, well, not currently have. I'm talking about students.

B (36:03)

Okay, gotcha.

A (36:04)

30% of Americans have taken out money at some point to pay for education. So this is about student loans. This is in the subreddit student loans. How do I stop spiraling about my student loans? I feel lost and scared. Hello. I graduated from undergrad college in 2018 with a business degree. I don't remember my studies and feel financially illiterate. I went to college because I was told I needed to and I studied a subject I was told would be successful in. I studied while having anxiety and adhd. I don't even like business. I don't know how I finished, but I got the degree and still have no work experience in my field. I have 28k in student loans and I haven't touched them in 5 years. Now that the save plan is ending. This was posted 2 months ago. From the time of recording, loan interest is accruing. I keep kicking myself that I didn't pay towards the principal of my student loans back when I had 0% interest from 2020 to 2025. I currently work as an assistant English teacher in Japan and make 4,300,000 yen annually, which is 27,000American dollars when converted. It's bad. I've worked here for four years and every time I considered paying towards my student loans, I stopped because I felt paying wasn't worth it with the money, I would lose with the interest rates between Japan yen and USD. But I was so dumb. I hate that I made this mistake. It has to be one of the worst financial mistakes I've ever made. I could have paid nearly half more, or who knows, all of it by now. I feel resentment for myself. I can't stop thinking about these loans. I feel like this job can't help pay down this loan with the new interest occurring at 100American dollars per month due to the median interest of 4.3%. Would I be stupid to stay in Japan with this income? If the exchange rate was better, then maybe I'd have a fighting chance, but it isn't the case. Am I in a bad spot financially? Should I be panicking? I can't stop thinking about how I feel so overwhelmed just living life. Bills are scary. What if I can't find a better job? I have no faith in myself to find a higher paying job and I feel like even this loan will be the end of me. Please tell me I can beat my anxieties. Has anyone felt like this unmanaged? Any replies are appreciated. Thank you.

B (38:13)

Oh, I just want to give them a big hug. Oh it's so, so hard. And given what we were just talking about, the individualization of systemic problems, I hear a lot of that in this Reddit message. It's my fault. I was stupid. Something's wrong with me. How will I ever fix this versus you did the best you could in the system that we have with the information that you had and now you're feeling frustrated and overwhelmed and anxious and continuing to try to go. This alone is not the answer. Something that comes up with shame is that the more we keep it to ourselves, the bigger it gets and the importance of having some community care or a person to talk to. Even this like Reddit bread, these things really matter. Having social recognition of the experience that we have helps to take away the intensity of the shame. It doesn't fix it, to be clear, but for this person, I would strongly recommend checking out the debt collective.org they are an organization that advocates for things like canceling student debt, canceling medical debt, and they have webinars almost daily targeted toward different audiences. Things like what to do if you're in default, what to do if you're a borrower, what are the updates or how to advocate to abolish medical debt so it isn't just the big picture policy of how do we figure this thing out. They also have tangible what to do if you're in this situation. And because the landscape of student loans is so confusing and changing constantly, I would highly recommend getting involved with some sort of organization that does this work full time to give you some relief that a you're not the only person in this situation, b it is not individually your fault to figure this out and then c to give yourself some of those solutions. Having a little bit of information around what's actually happening and what you can do I think will help to quiet it down. And having people who do this full time is a tremendous help.

C (40:27)

Yeah, I want to second just talking to other people about it. We've been talking about the taboo of money throughout this conversation and just not feeling like you have to keep it to yourself. I think we often assume that other people know more than we do. Other people have got it figured out. Like, man, this is so bad. I really, really fucked up. Other people wouldn't make a mistake like this. But I think, like, going out into the world and talking to people about it, like this poster is doing, going into Reddit and sharing it. And then like you're saying, Lindsay, going into other communities where you can, like, commiserate with people, not feel so alone, not feel like you really, really messed up and know that other people are in the same boat too, and then get some practical help as well is such a good path forward. Because, you know, poster, you are absolutely not alone. And I bet that there are tons of comments on this post basically saying that Christie, I'm guessing they got a

A (41:20)

lot of it was other people recommending different plans and, like, helpful stuff. And I think that's to your point why it's so important to talk to other people, because I think when something like that feels so heavy and it just sounds like from the way that OP was speaking, they just feel like they're in this hole they are never going to get out of. And to have one person come be like, hey, there actually is a plan for you. Even that, again, it's a solution. But yeah, and also, how ridiculous to have an expectation for yourself to keep up with all the student loan shit, because it changes all the time.

C (41:55)

Like, it's been chaos now for years.

B (41:58)

It's just, I think it's a really

A (42:00)

tough expectation to have. And also that is not a lot of money to also pay student loans on. That is really, really tough to work out. And obviously, I'm not exactly sure, but it's very, very expensive to live in the United States compared to a lot of other countries. And I think Japan does have a lower cost of living than the United States. So maybe that's enough in Japan, but you're still paying American student loans, you know, so it just seems like a really, really logistically tough situation. And then just having compassion that it's like what Lindsay's been saying this whole time, the system is against you. And that's not your fault that you didn't know all the nuances and you were making the best financial decision. For yourself at the time.

C (42:42)

Right. And they also mentioned that they got advice when they were younger to like go to school, as if that was the solution. And like study this, get this degree, because this is the degree that will be helpful for you. And you were young when you got that advice. You probably had no reason not to believe the people who are giving you that advice. And like, it's not as if that advice is like categorically wrong either. Like, there can be a lot of truth to that, but it doesn't mean that it works out for everybody. And I think beating yourself up because, you know, you couldn't have seen into the future, you couldn't have anticipated these things that happen and how they would impact you. Like, yeah. Again, lots of compassion for op. I hope after posting this and getting some feedback that you're feeling some relief.

A (43:27)

Okay, well, I think we have time for one more. And this is about something that I really, really love clarity on for listeners, and that's when does financial anxiety become financial ocd? Which is definitely something that I was seeing a lot online. Okay, so this is in the subreddit. OCD recovery, financial anxiety, not diagnosed, but something isn't right. 29, female. I think I'm struggling with serious financial anxiety and OCD. Some background on my financial situation. I bought a condo myself and built a ton of equity from it. I can afford to live here on my own and still put money into savings, have money in savings and investments and about six months of living costs. I paid off all my student debt, $65,000, and I have no credit card debt or loans other than $2,000 left in my car which I could pay off. I also have a government job which I'm paying into a pension and it offers financial stability. Yet I'm absolutely terrified that I'll somehow spend everything and end up homeless. If I have dinner plans with friends, I look at the menu ahead of time and cap a max spend on what I can get. I'm the type of person that will opt out of adding something if it costs $1. I'm so frugal to the point that it makes me feel anxious and limited on going out and enjoying life sometimes. I also check my bank app multiple times a day and my checking account always has to be even numbers. I've never been diagnosed with ocd, but I think I may have it and I certainly have anxiety as well. I've been going to therapy for eight years now, on and off different therapists working on childhood trauma and past abusive relationships. I'm in a healthy recent relationship now where we're learning a lot about each other and our triggers. I'm realizing that I'm projecting a lot of my financial anxiety and obsessions onto my partner because his career isn't as stable as mine and he doesn't save money like I do. I feel terrible that I'm projecting this onto him and he knows this. We're planning on sitting down to discuss budgeting together as he may move into my place soon. But I feel so anxious. Does anyone have any advice on how to navigate this? Perhaps seeing a doctor to discuss diagnosis? Maybe I need to focus specifically on finances and therapy. And I know that a lot of financial anxiety comes from my childhood. Any advice is super appreciated.

C (45:42)

First of all, I'm so, like, blown away by all of the work OP has done, both internally, mental health wise, like how she's showing up in her relationship and owning her part in that, and then also the financial stability that she's created for herself. Just like, wow, like, she's done so much and I don't know, my first instinct here was like, yeah, probably a financial therapist would be a really good fit for this person. What do you think, Lindsay?

B (46:11)

Yeah, a hundred percent. So obviously, you know, Felicia and I can't diagnose somebody over the Internet, nor would we try. It sounds to me like there's a lot of anxiety going on here. I'm actually not hearing ocd. Regardless, it's impacting your ability to enjoy your life. And that is the big key here. When we think about is it time for me to see a therapist about XYZ thing, the answer almost always is, is whatever your pain point stressor, mental health issue, is it impacting your ability to live your life? And if the answer is yes, then yes, by all means, get a therapist. So there aren't a ton of financial therapists and there are more graduating and getting certified every single year. So absolutely. If your current therapist isn't comfortable talking about financial anxiety, then by all means, ask to find a financial therapist. I think that would be very, very beneficial. But yeah, my heart goes out to you. It sounds like you're aware that this is maybe not the most helpful pattern that you have. And I also hear that maybe there's a part of you that wants it to change. Like, I can't order the $1 add on. Like, I'm hearing like an urge. Like, it'd be nice if I could add, you know, that upgrade to tofu or whatever. The thing is, like, I'm hearing, hearing some desires there. And I love that you're already thinking ahead about what it'll look like with your partner. I see all the time the issue of money in relationships and in romantic relationships. And a big kind of misnomer there is, like, if we talk about money, we'll fight. Research actually shows that people who talk about money in romantic partnerships report being happier than those who don't. And conversely, people who argue about money tend to say that the arguments about money are deeper and more. More negatively impactful than other topics that they fight about. So basically, talk about money, because if you don't talk about it, you're gonna fight about it, and the fights about it tend to be bigger. So kudos to you for wanting to bring it up to your partner, for already acknowledging your kind of part in it. And I always invite people to remember that there are two people or three or four in a partnership and making sure that they are having their say. Like, I. I heard, you know, some things about they don't do this or they do do that. Like, give them some floor space to see what their financial goals and dreams and aspirations are, to see if you can find a landing pad where the two of you align. Maybe you do spend your fund money wildly different, but you both agree that you like to have a solid cushion for an emergency fund. Start there. Start with where you agree. As you get ready to have that conversation, that would be some tangible next steps.

A (48:54)

So about the OCD piece, When does it become that, and how does that change how you would approach it as a clinician? How would that change even your advice that you would give?

B (49:06)

Here we use terms in our kind of, like, cultural lexicon, like, oh, I'm so ocd, or so and so is so bipolar without considering, like, the full weight of those words. So I think when people think, oh, I like my bank account to have round number, I must be ocd. It's because what we have in pop culture is kind of a representation of OCD that is about perfectionism or liking things a certain way. But really, when we're thinking about ocd, it is both the obsession and the compulsion. And oftentimes those things are impacting that person's ability to move through the world. They obsess about their money, and the compulsion is that their money is at a round number. So then in order to get it at the round number, they're constantly spending money to get it there or earning money to get it there, and that becomes the obsession and the compulsion. I just heard. I prefer a round number. But not, I don't leave my house if it's ending in a seven instead of a two. Right. Like, I'm not hearing things that would be impacting their ability to live their life. But of course, there's way more nuance on that. But that's why I. Yeah, that jumped out at me. But, Felicia, I'm so curious.

C (50:20)

No, I'm with you there. I don't think there is enough information in this post to be like, yeah, this is very obviously ocd. And like you said, Lindsay, it would be so inappropriate for us to try to, like, diagnose somebody via a Reddit post if that is not what therapists are supposed to do. But, yeah, I completely agree. And we did a whole episode on ocd. And you're right, that along with things like bipolar get thrown around colloquially. And, yeah, I think it's important to consider those things carefully. I think either way, Lindsay and I, our advice is, yeah, go work with a therapist. Again, it sounds like you've been in a lot of therapy, but, hey, a lot of us have been in a lot of therapy. That's not a bad thing. There are different types of therapy that you can engage with, depending on what you're really wanting to address. And so it sounds like you've done tons of work. Work around childhood trauma, which is fantastic. And now that it sounds like this financial anxiety is really acute, maybe some of the other things that were really bothering you earlier in your life have been addressed and they're not as much at the fore, but this is the thing that's really causing problems and really identifiable. Then it would make a lot of sense to go work with a therapist that can really target that area of your life. So, yeah, I think you're looking in the right direction.

A (51:33)

And anxiety is pretty obsessive.

B (51:35)

Like, I think that's definitely a hallmark

A (51:37)

of anxiety is like, you're checking your bank account because you're like, I just have to know it's fine.

B (51:41)

You know, Totally. Right.

C (51:43)

And a person who's really well versed in ocd, like, a therapist who's a specialist in ocd, should be able to distinguish between, like, is this OCD or is this another disorder that has similar features but is distinct? Because there are a lot of disorders that have things in common. But a therapist is trained to be able to distinguish between these different disorders, and depending on what your diagnosis is, the treatment will be different. So, yeah, it could be anxiety. It could be an aspect of ocd.

B (52:15)

Great.

A (52:16)

I think it's time for our. Our Last segment.

C (52:18)

Okay, Lindsay, so have you ever been in the room with a client and you are kind of holding back on saying what you really, really think about something or what you really want to say? Because, you know, they're your client, they're not your buddy, they're not your friend. You're their therapist. Has there ever been, like, a thought that's popped up into your head or, like a thing you've wanted to say, but you're like, I'm not going to say it quite like that. What are you really thinking when your clients are talking to you about financial anxiety?

B (52:42)

I mean, the problem is that my answer is, yes, of course I have things that I want to say and it just would not be appropriate to say. And because it can show up in so many different ways and shapes and iterations, there isn't like this go to refrain in my head that I wish I could just say aloud. And I think that really speaks. Speaks to the nuance of financial anxiety and the nuance of our relationship with money. Because the thing that I do say all the time is you're not the only person. You're not alone. Obviously, I would say it in, like, a more therapeutic way, depending on the person, but I think that really stands. But I don't think that's like, a hot take. It's just true.

C (53:21)

Yeah.

B (53:21)

I mean, I wish I could, like, have some sort of magic power that just took this individualized financial anxiety and worry and put it on the people who actually should be worried and feel bad and terrible. Like, if there was something that I could do to take all the blame and shame and guilt from them and, like, put it on someone else, that would be what I would do. So it's not even like a thing I would say to my clients. It's really like, fuck, I'm so sorry. You are carrying so much weight and so much guilt and so much pain and so much frustration. Because, like, maybe 3% of what you're carrying is yours to carry and we can work on and deal with, but, like, the bulk of it is the world that we live. I'm even sorry that we have to do this work as financial therapists. Like, what a messed up thing that in order to talk to somebody about money in a meaningful and empathic and compassionate and holistic way, you have to find a fricking financial therapist to do it. Like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that the system is so set up to make you feel like this is your fault.

C (54:24)

So in your perfect world, you'd be like, hold on real quick. Brb. Gotta go, like amalgamate all of this stress and worry and then like, you know, knock on some doors and be

B (54:35)

like, you deal with this now like a US Government. The collective rage room is the solution.

C (54:42)

Yeah, right.

B (54:43)

Yeah, yeah.

C (54:44)

Okay. So you're like, let's all get together and break some things and then like go do a march and like, let the people who have power know that they need to make this different. I mean, I'll take it. I love that. I'm so with you. Thank you so much for being here, Lindsay. This has been such a great conversation. Like, I love that we're already starting to break down that taboo of talking about money just in this episode itself. So grateful for this conversation.

B (55:11)

Yeah, same.

A (55:12)

Thank you so much, Lindsay. And I know you are a very busy lady, but if listeners hearing this, they really want to start working on this stuff, where would you point them other than your book, which we are linking to in the show notes.

B (55:25)

So if somebody is experiencing financial anxiety or is now thinking after this episode that they've got some financial anxiety, want some help with it? My business is called Mind Money Balance. I put out podcasts, YouTube episodes, Instagram clips. But I'm most consistent in my weekly email. So make sure you go to mindmoney balance.com newsletter. It is perfectly free and I usually do some sort of in real life story with some sort of actionable advice that isn't always a tip, but as often, like, let's reflect on this. Let's think about this so I always have a trust yourself to try section so people can take some of the information that I'm giving them and practice implementing it. So that's a place for sure that I would recommend people go. My book, the Financial Anxiety Solution. I recommend your local bookstore order it for you or order it through like bookshop.org or even better, ask your local library to get a copy and make sure it's in circulation in your area. That's always key. And then on my website as well, if you go to mindmoneybalance.com stuff/resources, I have a list of different places I often am recommending and I try to keep that quite up to date. So those are the places people can go. And right now I'm not taking on new financial therapy clients, but if you have a workplace and you're like, hey, maybe they could pick up the tab and we could bring Lindsay in for a financial anxiety workshop, you could totally do that. And then you, you and your colleagues could all get some good information and have some tools and some tips and some language. So again, my newsletter is the best place to figure out how that all works and how to hire me to come in and help y' all out.

C (57:08)

Thank you so much Lindsay.

B (57:09)

Thanks Lindsay. Yeah, this was so fun. Thanks y'. All.

C (57:12)

Thank you so much for listening to this episode.

A (57:14)

We're so glad you're here and we hope you got a lot out of it.

C (57:17)

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A (57:34)

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C (57:40)

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A (57:42)

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C (57:44)

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A (57:47)

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C (57:57)

What YOUR Therapist Thinks is hosted by me, Felicia Keller Boyle and me, Christy Plantinga. What your Therapist Thinks is produced by podvision. See you next time.