Could headphones be damaging our ears?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: What's That Rash?

Episode: "Could headphones be damaging our ears?"

Date: March 10, 2026
Host: ABC News
Hosts: Norman Swan, Fiona Pepper

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Brief Overview

In this engaging, question-driven episode, Norman Swan and Fiona Pepper explore the increasingly relevant question: are headphones damaging our ears? Prompted by several listener emails, they dive into the science of hearing, the history of headphones, how modern habits might be increasing our risk of hearing loss, and what we all can do to protect our ears—without giving up our favourite music or podcasts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Questions: The Health Impact of Headphones

Timestamps: [01:45–02:32]

• Mel: Asks if attending loud music events or using in-ear headphones leads to long-term hearing damage.
• Alida: Wonders if the prevalence of earbuds is affecting hearing ability.
• Katie: Is curious about the impacts of headphone use on hearing, ear health, cognition, and connection to the world.

Memorable Quote:

"I'm really excited to get into this one."
— Fiona Pepper [02:31]

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2. Assessing Personal Risk: Noise Exposure Calculators

Timestamps: [02:32–03:43]

• Fiona and Norman discuss their results from an online noise risk calculator, prompting reflections on subtle but cumulative exposures—like blasting show tunes in the car.
• They clarify it’s not just single loud events, but chronic, frequent exposure that damages hearing long-term.

Memorable Quote:

"Turns out it is about chronic, long-term and frequent exposure to loud noise that really does do the damage."
— Norman Swan [03:22]

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3. A Brief & Fascinating History of Headphones

Timestamps: [03:51–09:44]

• Original in-ear headphones were patented in the 1890s for telephone users.
• More mainstream access came from Britain’s Electrophone service (theater/opera by subscription) and the military’s telegraphy needs.
• Evolution through stereo headphones (20th century), Walkman revolution (late 1970s), and early moral panics about youth and hearing loss.

Memorable Quotes:

"He patented a set of in ear headphones that are not actually that different to... what we would have these days."
— Fiona Pepper [04:43]

“When new technology comes along, it’s always doom and destruction, and then maybe it’s partial destruction, but not total doom.”
— Norman Swan [09:44]

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4. The Science: How Hearing and Hearing Loss Work

Timestamps: [09:51–12:38]

• They break down how sound reaches the brain: eardrum → middle ear bones → inner ear (tiny hair cells in fluid)—damage to those hair cells = hearing loss.
• Bone conduction headphones and tests are discussed, with caveats: bone conduction bypasses the middle ear but can still damage the inner ear at high volumes.

Memorable Quote:

“These little hairs in your inner ear are very sensitive and they're the ones that get damaged with loud noise.”
— Norman Swan [11:29]

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5. Prevalence and Population Risk

Timestamps: [12:46–13:45]

• Workplaces like aviation and factories need hearing protection due to occupational risks.
• The World Health Organization estimates over a billion young people are at risk for early hearing loss due to unsafe headphone/audio device use.

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6. Hearing Loss: Social & Cognitive Consequences

Timestamps: [13:45–15:37]

• Hearing loss possibly linked to cognitive decline and social isolation, though the relationship is complex and not fully understood.
• Headphones may reduce day-to-day social connection, but can be beneficial for neurodivergent individuals (e.g., those with autism).
• Noise-cancelling headphones are probably a better choice for hearing health—they allow users to listen at lower, safer volumes.

Memorable Quotes:

“Noise cancelling headphones are probably better for your hearing than non-noise cancelling. That’s because the noise cancellation allows you to turn down the volume.”
— Norman Swan [15:01]

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7. Safe Listening Habits: Myths, Guidelines & Practical Tips

Timestamps: [16:44–18:07]

• No strong evidence that noise-cancelling headphones cause "auditory processing disorder".
• General advice: use the lowest comfortable volume, protect your ears at concerts/clubs/work, and take regular breaks.
• The “80-90 rule”: Listen at no more than 80% volume for no more than 90 minutes per day.
• Occupational exposures are still a major risk.
• Earplugs are recommended for regular exposure to loud environments.

Memorable Quotes:

“Find the lowest level that you can achieve that you can hear it comfortably.”
— Norman Swan [17:11]

“Noise cancelling is a really good idea...But just keep that volume down.”
— Norman Swan [19:26]

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8. Broadening the Picture: Brian Johnson & Hearing Aids

Timestamps: [18:07–19:18]

• Celebrity "biohacker" Brian Johnson wears hearing aids due to, in his words, gunshot and music exposure in childhood—a reminder that hearing damage can’t be reversed; hearing aids are the only effective solution once hair cells are lost.

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9. Practical, Personalized Takeaways

Timestamps: [19:18–19:47]

• Bottom line:
  • Keep volume as low as possible
  • Noise-cancelling vs. in-ear/over-ear: use what’s comfortable, but volume is key
  • Protect your ears in loud environments

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sometimes, that’s the point—sometimes if you’re on a bus and you’re like, please don’t talk to me, I’m going to put on these big can headphones as a signal to leave me alone, please.”
  — Fiona Pepper [14:52]

• “It’s the volume that counts.”
  — Norman Swan [15:37]

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Start | Key Content | |---------------------------------|---------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Listener Questions Introduced | 01:45 | The episode’s central questions about headphone risks | | Noise Calculator Experiences | 02:32 | Hosts compare their own noise exposure results | | Headphones History | 03:51 | In-ear invention, Electrophone, military adoption, Walkman panic | | Hearing Loss Science | 09:51 | Biology of hearing and vulnerability to noise | | Prevalence of Risk | 12:46 | WHO stats; occupational warning | | Headphones & Social Connection | 13:45 | Cognitive/social isolation link; neurodiversity practical uses | | Noise-cancelling Headphones | 15:01 | Are they safer? Practical advice | | “80-90” Safe Listening Rule | 17:39 | Practical, science-informed best practice | | Brian Johnson & Irreversible Loss| 18:07 | Hearing loss is permanent; only aids can restore some function | | Episode Takeaways | 19:18 | Final recommendations for safe listening |

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Conclusion

If you’re worried about headphone use and your hearing:

• Keep the volume as low as possible.
• Noise-cancelling headphones help you avoid turning up the volume in noisy environments.
• Both in-ear and over-ear headphones can cause harm at high volumes; comfort and listening habits matter more.
• Hearing loss is common, can be socially and cognitively isolating, and is essentially irreversible.
• Take breaks, use hearing protection where needed, and remember: “It’s the volume that counts.”

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For more on the science, fun anecdotes, and listener questions, check out the full episode or see the reference links in the show notes.

Transcript

[Fiona Pepper]

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[Norman Swan]

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and

[Fiona Pepper]

more for the first time in over 50 years, astronauts will soon fly around the moon.

[Norman Swan]

They're ready to fly, but there are

[Fiona Pepper]

real concerns about their safety. We're playing Russian Roulette in our series the Challenger Legacy. We trace the history of two space shuttle disasters and we ask, what are the lessons for today.

[Norman Swan]

I'm Carl Krushelnytski.

[Fiona Pepper]

And I'm Fiona Pepper. Binge all the episodes. Just search for the Challenger Legacy on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Norman Swan]

So Tegan, normally we have this agony about our headphones when we start recording.

[Fiona Pepper]

Yeah, I always hear myself. I always hear myself in stereo. But have you been very, very good today, Norman, and turned your headphones down so that I'm not hearing my own echo?

[Norman Swan]

I have, but can barely hear you. But nonetheless, headphones is part of the work that we do at the abc. And I do seem to come across quite a lot of deaf people at the abc, but maybe they just don't like listening to what I'm got to say.

[Fiona Pepper]

Sorry, what's that? All right, we better get into it. This is of course, what's that Rash?

[Norman Swan]

The podcast where we answer the health questions is simply everybody's asking and this week they're asking.

[Fiona Pepper]

They're asking a lot of questions about headphones. Mel says, I have a question about long term hearing damage. I have been to lots of parties with loud music. Okay, Mel, you're popular. We get it. I was wondering if this will cause hearing loss when I'm older. I can hear perfectly fine now, so I've always assumed any damage has already been done. Or also, Mel asks, does wearing in ear headphones cause long term damage? Alita similarly is saying, I can't help but notice the number of people using earbuds. I was wondering if they affect the hearing ability of the wearer. And Katie, who loves our show, says, most of us wear headphones and or earbuds a lot. What are the impacts on our hearing, our ear health, our cognition, and our sense of connection to the world and community Great questions. I'm really excited to get into this one.

[Norman Swan]

So to help us along, you and I had to do some homework.

[Fiona Pepper]

Yes. We had to do our noise risk calculator survey. I want to know what your answer was, Norman.

[Norman Swan]

Oh, you mean the conclusion that this calculator came to about how much damage I was doing to my ears? Yes, I was on the low end. Were you? I was.

[Fiona Pepper]

I don't know if I'm just. Okay. So it's asking questions like, how often do you go to noisy gigs? How often are you at nightclubs? Are you using power tools? I can't remember what some of the other. And I was like, no, no, never, never.

[Norman Swan]

How loud your headphones when you listen.

[Fiona Pepper]

But like, it came back saying that my noise exposure was too high.

[Norman Swan]

Oh, really?

[Fiona Pepper]

Which made me go, I feel like I have a very boring life.

[Norman Swan]

You're enjoying life, but you haven't noticed.

[Fiona Pepper]

Maybe I was just over. I do, I do turn up the music quite loud in the car and sing along very loudly to show tunes pretty frequently, which is the dorkiest way to give myself hearing damage. Honestly.

[Norman Swan]

That's one of the questions they do ask in this noise calculator, which. And we'll have the link to that noise calculator in our show notes so that you can do it for yourself. And I've always assumed that it's those loud, sharp noises that really do the damage to your ears, but it turns out it is about chronic, long term and frequent exposure to loud noise that really does do the damage.

[Fiona Pepper]

Well, chronic, long term, frequent is definitely how a lot of people are using headphones these days. I'm sure more than we used to.

[Norman Swan]

Actually.

[Fiona Pepper]

We should talk about the history of headphones. It's another one of those ones where I really wish we had like a video component. So I'm going to do my best to describe some of the apparatus. But basically, when do you think sort of headphones first became like a big thing?

[Norman Swan]

Well, I'm kind of assuming the ancient Egyptians didn't have headphones, so it's one

[Fiona Pepper]

of the few things they didn't have.

[Norman Swan]

Wipe out that one, you know, Alexander the Great. Probably not. So I'm guessing when electricity started to come in, maybe 19th century, late 18th century.

[Fiona Pepper]

Yeah, fine. Okay. You nailed it. So basically, I think I had imagined like Walkmans are when people en masse, I think are going to be.

[Norman Swan]

Did Queen Victoria have a Walkman?

[Fiona Pepper]

So that was not until like the late 70s, but the 1890s. There was this guy, a French engineer, Ernest Mercadier.

[Norman Swan]

You mumbled that one.

[Fiona Pepper]

Ernest Mercadier. Mercadier.

[Norman Swan]

Mercadier.

[Fiona Pepper]

He patented a set of in ear headphones that are not actually that different to in ear headphones or earphones that we would have these days. They weighed less than one and three quarter ounces. They were adapted for insertion into the ear and they even had a little rubber cover to, in his words, lessen the friction against the orifice of the ear, effectually close the ear to external sounds. So they were soundproof and basically they were for telephone users. So this is. We finally had the telephone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Norman Swan]

So not mobile obviously, but nonetheless telephone. No.

[Fiona Pepper]

Well, and I've also got to tell you, so this is one of the things where I wish I could show you a photo of this man. He looks like, he looks deeply hipster. He's got this steampunk kind of apparatus around his ears and he's got like what I now know is like an old school telephone and he's writing a message. Anyway, the other one that became more, I think more people probably encountered it was this company called Electrophone in Britain that you could subscribe to be able to listen to the theatre or the opera.

[Norman Swan]

I'm just looking at the photograph now. It looks a bit like a wishbone in your ear.

[Fiona Pepper]

It does, it does. This very glamorously dressed young woman listening to the opera with a great big smile on her face. I can only assume it's working. Anyway, not surprisingly, the technology really kicked up a notch in the lead up to the two world wars. And so because we had the telegraph system and we had telephones, having the ability to hear remotely was really useful. Anyway, so there was this guy who invented telephone headsets that were for military use. And he was this guy, he basically wrote to the US Navy to be like, you should use my invention.

[Norman Swan]

So this is like one of the letters we used to get the abc. It came with different colored handwriting and it did. And normally you throw it in the bucket thinking this is a.

[Fiona Pepper]

How dare you not take listeners feedback seriously, Norman, One day I'll tell you

[Norman Swan]

some of the stories of listener feedback we enjoy. Let me tell you, we love your feedback, but in the olden days had some weird shit.

[Fiona Pepper]

When you get a handwritten letter, it's either really, really good or really, really bad. Anyway, this one 19, can we tell

[Norman Swan]

you about the guy who walked? Who walked?

[Fiona Pepper]

Go on.

[Norman Swan]

So this guy walked into our office. Gone was how he got past security and, and walked straight to my cubicle and sat down and he had a Plastic bag in his hand. And he said, I've been trying to get a hold of you, and now at last I'm sitting with you. And he said, I've invented a device to cure erectile dysfunction. And he lifts up his plastic bag. And I said, really? And he said, would you like.

[Fiona Pepper]

I'm terrified of what's in that bag at that time.

[Norman Swan]

Exactly. Would you like me to show you? And out comes all these sort of plastic tubes and stuff. Luckily, at that point, the commissionaire came in and removed him from the premises. So I'll never know what was in that plastic bag. But luckily, life has changed and we get very sensible from. What's that rash? OD is back to hearing.

[Fiona Pepper]

No, I was going to say the only thing that could have made that interaction worse is if he'd lifted up his shirt and said, what's that rash? It would have been a great orange

[Norman Swan]

history before his time. Long before his time.

[Fiona Pepper]

Anyway. Anyway, Nathaniel Baldwin writes a letter, purple ink on blue and pink paper, to the US Navy in 1910. And he's like, I've made these telephone headsets, you guys. They didn't take it seriously originally, but they did eventually test it, and they found it was much better than the model that was then being used by the naval radio operators. And so they're like, okay, yes, please, can you make us a whole bunch of these things? And he said, well, yes, but I can only produce 10 at a time because I build them in my kitchen at home. And they go, okay, let's make you a factory somewhere else. He was based in Utah. Turns out he couldn't leave the state of Utah because he was a polygamist.

[Norman Swan]

Oh, so he had to build a factory in Utah.

[Fiona Pepper]

Exactly. It then evolves into stereo headphones. And then, like we said before 1979, the Walkman comes out. And in the long tradition of health reporting, there's a story just three years later agonising over the fact that this new technology is going to be the downfall of us all.

[Norman Swan]

That's right. Distraction of children and the destruction of their ears.

[Fiona Pepper]

Correct. They're worried about people on city streets because these young kids with their Walkman stereos are not going to pay attention to where the traffic is. And then, yes, this idea about the volume damaging the listeners hearing, they quote a young bank employee in Tokyo, I do not think they are good for your ears. My parents warned me not to get a headphone stereo, which we're going to get to the sort of damage that these things can do. But when I read something from back in the day where everyone's sort of wringing their hands over this, like, oh, the world's going to end, the sky's going to fall, the young people doomed. It's a good little bit of seasoning to put on top of our current reporting about things like AI and social media. I'm not saying that it's good for us. I'm just saying that sometimes the bad can be overstated.

[Norman Swan]

Yeah. When new technology comes along, it's always doom and destruction, and then maybe it's partial destruction, but not total doom.

[Fiona Pepper]

Well, let's talk about the destruction of our hearing. I suppose to do this, it would be good to recap on what actually happens when sound encounters our ear and how our brain decodes that.

[Norman Swan]

Yeah. So sound waves come in through your ear canal and then gets to your eardrum. The eardrum vibrates and then there are three tiny little bones connecting your eardrum to the inner ear, which then transmit the sound to your inner ear. And in your inner ear there are fine hairs in fluid filled tubes which then translate those sound waves into electrical impulses which then go through the nerves and to part of your brain, the auditory cortex, which then reassembles them into sounds that we can make sense of. So it's a very complex apparatus.

[Fiona Pepper]

It's very complex. The fact that I can hear your beautiful dulcet tones. So much is going on to get that decoded in my brain.

[Norman Swan]

Norman, there is an alternate route, which is via the bones.

[Fiona Pepper]

Oh, because you can have those bone conduction headphones these days.

[Norman Swan]

That's right. And in the old days, when I was less of a pretend doctor, more of a real doctor, when you were testing somebody's hearing or a child's hearing, you would bang a tuning fork and hold it by the child's ear, and then you'd hold it in the bone behind the ear to see where the child might hear it more loudly. Should hear it more loudly via the air in front of the ear. So when you hear it in front of the ear, but if they heard it more loudly via the bone conduction, it meant there was something going on in the middle ear because you could transmit straight to the inner ear via the bone conduction. But these little hairs in your inner ear are very sensitive and they're the ones that get damaged with loud noise.

[Fiona Pepper]

So you've got like. Is it like a physical damage because of the sound waves impacting the hairs? In a very physical sense, the transmission

[Norman Swan]

is a very physical transmission through these little bones. To the inner ear. And then you get these waves of energy going through the tubes in the inner ear. And that wave of energy, if it's strong, can damage these delicate hairs. That's the theory.

[Fiona Pepper]

Is bone conduction a safer way of listening then? Because I'm hearing you say that the same loudness would be heard softer bone conduction than through the ear hole. Which makes me think if I'm using a bone conducted headphone and maybe having the volume louder to be able to hear it.

[Norman Swan]

I'm not sure we fully know the answer to that question, but all that the bone conduction avoids is the middle ear. It still goes directly to the inner ear because there's no way that you can actually translate those sounds back into sounds that you can make sense of other than going through the inner ear and then being transmitted by the auditory nerve to the auditory cortex. So one would assume that if it's really strong energy coming in through the bone, it could damage the inner ear. In theory.

[Fiona Pepper]

So we know then the physical damage to that apparatus is what might cause hearing loss long term. What do we know about how prevalent it is?

[Norman Swan]

So if you look, let's just take a step back. If you look at the questions being asked by this evidence based assessment of your risk, they put a lot of emphasis on pubs, on concerts, on venues, that you are actually being exposed to loud sounds on a regular basis. And we already know that occupations where you are exposed to loud sounds, like aviation, in factories and what have you, you really do need ear protection against those loud sounds because those loud sounds in an occupational setting are at high risk. But if you don't have one of those jobs, then if you are exposed on a regular basis, frequently to high volume sound, you are at risk. And that includes through headphones. And the World Health Organization reckons on that basis that over a billion teenagers and young adults are at risk of developing hearing loss on of age related hearing loss because of unsafe personal audio devices or noisy environments.

[Fiona Pepper]

That's crazy. So I think it's implied. But can we talk about what that means for people if they lose their hearing? One of the questions we got was about social connection and cognitive health when your hearing is impacted.

[Norman Swan]

So there's two really interesting angles to the social connection issue. One is there is a relationship between hearing loss. It's controversial by the way, because there's been some dubious research into this. But there is a relationship between hearing loss and cognitive decline. And it's unclear whether it's entirely due to the hearing loss or the social isolation. That occurs due to hearing loss and therefore you're not connecting with other people as well. But that's after you've got established hearing loss. There is another angle to this social connection issue, which is through the headphones themselves. So there's this debate about noise cancelling headphones. One is that when you're wearing headphones all the time and you're listening to stuff, you're not communicating with other people.

[Fiona Pepper]

Sometimes. That's the point. Sometimes if you're on a bus and you're like, please don't talk to me, I'm going to put on these big can headphones as a signal to leave me alone, please.

[Norman Swan]

So that's social connectedness, and there's not a lot of research to back that up one way or the other. And some people who are on the autism spectrum find it comforting to wear headphones because they can control the amount of auditory input that they get because they can be highly sensitive to loud sounds. It turns out that noise cancelling headphones are probably better for your hearing than non noise cancelling. And that's because the noise cancellation allows you to turn down the volume.

[Fiona Pepper]

Yes.

[Norman Swan]

And it's the volume that counts.

[Fiona Pepper]

I think about when I'm on a plane or something, if I've got my noise cancelling function on, because I do have noise cancelling headphones, I'm not competing. I'm not just turning the volume up and up to compete with the sound of the plane.

[Norman Swan]

So you won't find very many studies on this, but the theory would be that they're better for your hearing. And a lot of these new earbud or relatively new earbuds that you find that connect to your phone or your laptop, they're also noise cancelling and therefore you could listen to them at a lower level.

[Fiona Pepper]

Okay, can I sense check something with you? I saw an article about something called auditory processing disorder and whether maybe wearing noise cancelling headphones makes that more likely or makes it worse in people. This idea that all the time when we're listening, like when we're hearing normally, we're tuning in and out of different sounds that we can hear. So if I'm in a busy environment and you're talking to me, I can tune into your voice and kind of tune out the rest of it. I've read that there's an argument by some people in the know that perhaps if people are wearing noise cancelling headphones all the time, that their brain isn't getting as good at tuning out that less important sound. Is there Anything to that?

[Norman Swan]

Theoretically, I suppose it's possible. There's not a lot of research to back it up one way or the other. And the reality is that most people are not wearing noise cancelling headphones 24 hours a day and that for a lot of the day you are actually receiving the complexity of sounds in the general environment.

[Fiona Pepper]

Okay, so let us then give people some guidelines around what's a safe listening guidelines if we're trying to protect our ears without depriving ourselves of our show tunes.

[Norman Swan]

Well, I think first of all, if you love going to live music, live music venues, protecting your ears when you go into those loud environments is a good idea. If you're listening to music or the spoken word via headphones or earbuds, you really find the lowest level that you can achieve, that you can hear it comfortably. And if you are in an occupation where you're exposed to loud noises all the time, then you do need ear protection because that it's length and intensity that really makes the difference.

[Fiona Pepper]

I mean, Hearing Australia has some pretty practical guidelines around it. One of the things that they suggest is the 8090 rule, which is basically listen at no more than 80% volume for no more than 90 minutes per day. So then I guess for most people that would be 70 minutes per day because 20 minutes at least once a week is taken up with listening to whatsat rash at full volume. I assume, I can only assume.

[Norman Swan]

Yes, but we get our message over.

[Fiona Pepper]

It's, it's very subtle, very subtle, very soft, very asmr.

[Norman Swan]

And I noticed that one of our favorite people, Brian Johnson, who spends squillions a year trying to keep as young and not dying, is actually wearing hearing aids.

[Fiona Pepper]

Yeah, I was interested in this as well because we basically devoted a whole episode to tearing holes in Brian Johnson's entire approach to life.

[Norman Swan]

And now it turns out, including his

[Fiona Pepper]

eardrums, well, you and me probably need to eat at least some of our words because basically one of, okay, he has a whole thing about keeping his biological age as low as possible so that he can live for as long as possible. And there's all different sort of factors that he's looked at. And he shared that his left ear has a biological age of 64, which

[Norman Swan]

is sort of my old, knocked him for six.

[Fiona Pepper]

Well, right, I know, but he said he had repeated exposure in childhood to loud noises like gunshots and music. He's noticed that he's hearing damage and now he's getting hearing aids, which he speaks about things like the social isolation that we spoke about the cognitive decline that you referenced as well and just decreased quality of life. And he points out that there are no therapies to treat hearing loss apart from hearing aids, which I can't argue with. So I guess we've got to give him at least one point here.

[Norman Swan]

Indeed. So he's gone over to that to keep himself socially connected as a high priority.

[Fiona Pepper]

So for Mel, Alida and Katie and anyone else who's worried about ear health related to their headphone use, what's our bottom line today?

[Norman Swan]

Keep the volume as low as possible. Noise cancelling is a really good idea. Don't worry too much about in ear versus over the ear. It's just what you find most comfortable. But just keep that volume down and if you're going into loud venues where you're really going to get blasted and you're doing it a lot rather than just once every so often, maybe think about earplugs.

[Fiona Pepper]

Mel, Alida, Katie, thank you all so much for emailing us with your questions. You can be like them and email us your questions. Our address is thatrashabc.net au and our mailbag this week. Yes. So we talked about vitamin C supplementation and scurvy a lot last week. Terry has given us a bit of a history lesson on why Pommy sailors were called limeys and it's because they used limes to ward off scurvy.

[Norman Swan]

Yeah, we didn't say it on the show because we were down on James Lynde who supposedly did the study, but yep, the the daily dose of lime. But the trouble is, according to Terry, is that limes have way less vitamin C, he says.

[Fiona Pepper]

Jackson has also emailed in respons to our episode on doing nothing and I think the takeaway from that, at least for me, was doing nothing is whatever you want it to be. And for Jackson, that is a 40 minute hard effort on his road bike, typically accompanied by some electronic music from my bone conducting headphones. It's where he often solves work and personal challenges and comes up with creative ideas. Is a hard bike ride doing nothing, Norman?

[Norman Swan]

Well, it's allowing his mind wandering so his brain's doing nothing other than mind wandering. So that's what Jackson gets out of these bike riding and bone conducting headphones. That's great.

[Fiona Pepper]

Love that for you, Jackson. And one more email from Kylie just because it gave me the warm fuzzies. Kylie says, I'm a longtime listener of your show and honestly it's the only thing that gets me to my weights workout. Knowing I can listen to an episode to get me through. I also love the health report and the varied and interesting topics covered.

[Norman Swan]

Well, you just must have the biggest muscles possible.

[Fiona Pepper]

I'm really impressed because we never shut up. And for all of the people who emailed correcting my pronunciation last week, I think you both speak very well, but I particularly love Norman's pronunciation of necessarily. Thank you for providing great information to listeners.

[Norman Swan]

Robin Williams is always going on about how I say necessarily.

[Fiona Pepper]

You said it differently just then. You usually say necessarily.

[Norman Swan]

When I'm under the pump, it just all falls apart.

[Fiona Pepper]

I've got a long list of Norman pronunciation words that I treasure in my heart, but we've talked about them before so I won't go over them again.

[Norman Swan]

I'm just going to have an apricot

[Fiona Pepper]

for a some yogurt. All right, well, thank you all very much for your emails. It's been very silly and fun. Our address, if you've forgotten it, is that rashbc.netau See you next week. See you then.