117. When You Wish Upon a Starmer

Summary

Where Politics Meets History

Episode 117: "When You Wish Upon a Starmer"
April 21, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale and Dr. Tessa Dunlop

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Main Theme & Purpose

This lively episode sees broadcaster Iain Dale and historian Dr. Tessa Dunlop dissect the latest political turbulence surrounding Prime Minister Keir Starmer, particularly the fallout from his handling of the Peter Mandelson appointment fiasco. Threaded throughout is their signature sharp historical perspective—drawing parallels between today's headlines and echoes from Britain's political and imperial past. The episode also features a spirited debate about process in government, the reputation and future of the Commonwealth, and, as always, a dash of witty banter and listener interaction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Starmer–Mandelson Scandal & Westminster Fallout

[10:45–24:41]

• Diane Abbott’s Parliamentary Intervention
  • Tessa sees Diane Abbott as the "hero" of the day's Commons proceedings for asking a pointed question: "The question is, why didn’t the Prime Minister ask?" ([11:14], Diane Abbott quoted)
  • Tessa, impressed: "I think that was a bit of a killer question. And he completely fluffed the reply." ([11:57])
• Starmer's Response and Style
  • Tessa: "He had a choice. He either went in all guns blazing and took all of his critics on... or he was contrite and calm..." ([12:12])
  • Ian sees Starmer’s self-defensive statement as justified, though Tessa criticizes his “everyone else is to blame but me” posture.
• Pattern of Sacking Senior Officials
  • Notably brutal sacking of Sir Oliver (Ollie) Robbins is debated. Tessa: "If I was Ollie Robbins listening to that, I think, well, fuck you, I’m going to go for it." ([13:33])
  • Discussion of Ollie Robbins’ murky past, his role in both government and private sector, and the implications for vetting and state transparency.
• Process, Competence & Public Trust
  • Both hosts debate whether process obsession in British politics is healthy, invoking historical analogies and the dangers of “becoming the butt of jokes.”
  • Ian: "This obsession with process,...prevents us and our system from delivering a Trump and therefore we must endure." ([23:35])

2. Starmer’s Authority Versus Civil Service Power

[14:50–19:38]

• Ollie Robbins and the Authority Gap
  • Tessa claims: "He is the personification of the authority gap. I’ve never heard anybody speak about a female public servant in those terms." ([17:13])
  • Ian: “He was the remainer’s remainer…” ([18:26])
• Breakdown in Ministerial Oversight
  • Both agree it’s a “complete failure of our system” if the Prime Minister isn’t told crucial information by senior mandarin staff.

3. Historical Parallels—The Queen, Commonwealth, and Post-Imperial Britain

[29:03–40:33]

• Legacy of Elizabeth II and the Commonwealth
  • Tessa: "She managed the transition...from empire to Commonwealth." ([31:00])
  • Iain draws a comparison between the Queen’s blend of maternal symbolism and the diminishing of British global status—“She made us feel okay about it.” ([31:05])
• Britain’s Colonial Legacy and Modern Debates
  • Tessa rejects "the assumption that the whole of our colonial legacy was bad." ([31:38])
  • Discussion about the Queen’s 1961 visit to post-independence Ghana symbolizes adaptability and resilience.
• Why Countries Remain in the Commonwealth
  • Iain probes: "Why did you think people might leave [the Commonwealth] when the Queen died?... It was stronger than her." ([39:05], [39:18])
  • Both recognize the institution’s surprising endurance and contemporary relevance amid global uncertainty.

4. Other Notable Political & Social Threads

• UK Energy Pricing & Systemic Challenges
  ([05:53–07:30])

  • Discussion on why UK's energy is so expensive, including criticisms of energy pricing being pegged to gas and the political difficulty of changing this system.
  • Tessa asks: “Do you ever wonder why and what could be done about it?” ([05:51])

• Education, Exam Boards and the Fight for a Romanian GCSE

  • Tessa highlights “cartel-like” interests among exam boards: “A decision taken by four private bodies, exam boards. I think it’s very wrong.” ([09:50])
  • Ian laments the exclusion—and thus devaluation—of Ukrainian and British Sign Language GCSEs.

• Listener Q&A and Personal Banter
  ([41:55–55:56])

  • Engaging with listener feedback; humorous and self-deprecating exchanges about Channel 5 appearances, podcast reviews, and accusations of double standards.
  • Tessa’s “Romanian GCSE campaign” and its personal and community relevance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|--------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 11:14 | Diane Abbott (quoted by Tessa) | “The question is, why didn’t the Prime Minister ask?” | | 12:41 | Tessa | “...everyone else is to blame but me” | | 13:33 | Tessa | “If I was Oli Robbins listening to that, I think, well, fuck you, I'm going to go for it.” | | 17:13 | Tessa | “He [Ollie Robbins] is the personification of the authority gap. I've never heard anybody speak about a female public servant in those terms...” | | 18:26 | Ian | “The reasons why Ollie Robbins is revered within the Civil Service is because he was the remainers' remainer.” | | 23:35 | Ian | “...this obsession with process, while it is all consuming and it sucks the oxygen out of government ... it prevents us and our system of delivering a Trump and therefore we must endure.” | | 31:00 | Tessa | "She managed the transition, didn't she? From empire to Commonwealth." | | 31:05 | Ian | "And also, if we put it more boldly, from being a global power to being a mid ranking industrial nation. And she made us feel okay about it." | | 39:18 | Iain | "It was stronger than her." (On the Commonwealth outlasting the Queen) |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Diane Abbott’s Key Question in the House: [11:14]
• Sacking of Ollie Robbins and Mandarins’ Power: [13:02–18:26]
• Parliamentary Process and Starmer’s Weakening Authority: [20:00–24:41]
• Queen Elizabeth II, the Commonwealth, and Colonial Legacy: [29:03–40:33]
• Listener Questions and Banter: [41:55–55:56]

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Tone & Style

• Witty, at times irreverent.
• Robust, opinionated debate balanced with humor and mutual ribbing.
• Engaging, anecdotal storytelling—historical context drawn lightly and vividly into present issues.

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For Further Listening

• The next episode will be recorded with Tessa in the US and Iain in Westminster—expect time zone hijinks!
• Listeners are encouraged to send questions and leave reviews. Five stars (and tough love) welcomed; the hosts thrive on both critique and praise.

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This summary covers all major content sections and debates while omitting ads, intros/outros, and non-content filler. For fans of contemporary British politics with a historical twist, this engaging episode is not to be missed.

Transcript

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[Ian Dale]

This is a global player original podcast.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Today was an opportunity for the Prime Minister to tell us everything that he knew. And to be fair, his statement was okay as far as it went, but it was still, well, everyone else is to blame but me.

[Ian Dale]

He was defending himself, Ian. That's what you do when you defend yourself.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But there was no acknowledgement, it was at the top that he should have known about this. Who on earth think thinks of the Commonwealth as an evil post imperial construct? Apart from the likes of Zara fucking Sultana or Zack fucking Polanski?

[Ian Dale]

There's a huge number actually of sort of academics and professors.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, all on the hard left. Tessa Dunlop, Ian Dale with you for the next hour with incisive political debate.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, I'm glad you've changed your tune.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And the odd smidge of history too.

[Ian Dale]

Earlier today Ian said, well, obviously I will be glued to the screens at 3:30. We'll have to move the pod along a little bit so that we can after Starmer has given us his legalese in front of the house and then been taken down by one Diane Abbott. And then Ian added in a next WhatsApp. And then he said, I will wang on about my eight hour journey south from Scotland. To which I replied, ian, we don't

[Tessa Dunlop]

wang on this podcast. I think you said wang.

[Ian Dale]

I did say wang. Honestly, we are incision.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We are. But anyway, let me tell you about my journey.

[Ian Dale]

Oh God almighty, brace yourself. So just scroll on by two minutes

[Tessa Dunlop]

before we get on. Two minutes before we get on to important matters of state. I spent the weekend in your homeland northeast in Aberdeen.

[Ian Dale]

I hope this has got a good punchline, this story.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, there isn't a punchline at all.

[Ian Dale]

God Almighty.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But no, I. Anyone in Aberdeen, do stay at the Royal North University Club. It's brilliant. It's really, really. It's a lovely place. Not one of these stuffy old gentlemen's clubs. It's really nice.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, how would you know as an old gen gentleman, Are you the most discerning judge of that, Ian?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm just One of the older ones there.

[Ian Dale]

I raised my game.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So I did a nice little speech and answer questions on Friday evening about sort of 85 people say that.

[Ian Dale]

How'd your ego message?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Loads of books.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, yeah, A bit more of the

[Tessa Dunlop]

standard drilling for sponsoring the whole thing.

[Ian Dale]

God almighty. As I said, this is like a mini advert at the top. You know those really big podcasts that have four adverts. This is just us getting our own back. So first of all, we hope to

[Tessa Dunlop]

get, you know, a night at the

[Ian Dale]

hotel and a free night. What does the sponsor sell?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oil drilling.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, no, we don't. Oh, we don't want to. Silence.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We do that. We absolutely do. Drill, baby, drill.

[Ian Dale]

Now I've discovered why we've got such high energy. But we'll come to that when you

[Tessa Dunlop]

finish this nice EasyJet flight. It was all fine way back after. On the Saturday I was doing the Conservative event, Harriet Cross MP was interviewing me. That was good too. So on one o' clock I left the club to go home. Supposedly getting a plane at 3:40, took off at 6 o'. Clock. So I didn't get home till 9 o'. Clock. An eight hour journey. Tessa Dunlop. And is that enough wanging talking?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. Wait a sec. To our last podcast. How much of that dead time did you spend reading and how much did you spend scrolling?

[Tessa Dunlop]

What did I do?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, what did you do?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I didn't. I didn't read at all. I hadn't got a book with me.

[Ian Dale]

I know, but you can read. You can. You've got a subscription to the Financial Times.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I didn't do any of that.

[Ian Dale]

So. So what did you do?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I looked at the football quite a bit because I was hoping results would go in West Ham's favour.

[Ian Dale]

Do you not believe in self improvement over 60?

[Tessa Dunlop]

And I did do a bit of doom loop scrolling.

[Ian Dale]

He doesn't, ladies and gentlemen. He doesn't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't need to improve. You do.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, that is so flawed. You know, you're more likely to live longer if you believe that you're a continual work in progress. Just saying. Dear Ian, can I tell you about gas prices before we get on to the Queen's birthday? Just because you always drop your mujer appearances. Guess where I'm talking tomorrow, Ian.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Woman's Hour.

[Ian Dale]

And why?

[Tessa Dunlop]

On women's issues.

[Ian Dale]

No. Yeah, well, yes, I mean, she was the woman, but.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, it's the Queen's birthday, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

It would have been the late Queen's hundredth hundredth. Yeah. So I'm gonna Get to slip in a statue reference. And I'm almost gonna see if I can be a sales hawk as much

[Tessa Dunlop]

as a statue refere. What do you mean?

[Ian Dale]

You know, because I wrote a book about statues and her statues being constructed.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Isn't the paperback out of that soon?

[Ian Dale]

Well, work it out, Ian. How else do you think I wanged my way onto Woman's Hour? Anyway, so we've got that. We've got your dissection of the Keir Starmer Circus in Westminster and why I've come to believe it might be important. Against my better judgment, I also have found corruption, you'll be delighted to hear, or what I think is cartel like interest in our examination system. That's my ongoing pursuit of a Romanian GCSE has uncovered other travails. But before all of that, this morning I was listening to the Today program and I had to rewind and start listening again to make sure I understood it properly. You know, there's always that, like, really weird question of why does Britain have such expensive energy? Does it not confuse you a bit sometimes, given that we've got wind and wave and we've got a bit of our own oil from the North Sea and it's really not that bad being an archipelago in the 21st century, surely, for energy, does it never worry you, you, your natural curiosity? Do you ever wonder why and what could be done about it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Why? About why what?

[Ian Dale]

Why we have such expensive energy, the most expensive.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I know why. We have such expensive energy because of Edmund's Green Levies, that's why.

[Ian Dale]

It's also because the price of our electricity or energy is pegged to the price of gas. And actually, if you remove the gas player from the equation, we could then peg the cost of energy to one of the other supplies, for example wind or wave, etc. And that's what Rachel Reeves is trying to do. But it's very hard to unpick the system and guess who's resistant to it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do tell.

[Ian Dale]

Well, wind, wave, etc, because they will get much less of a premium if the energy price is pegged to a certain cost per unit and suddenly that unit is bought down in real terms, then who does that benefit? It benefits the customer. And if it's benefiting the customer, it's not benefiting the supplier.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, what I don't understand is why Spain's electricity costs, I think, about a quarter of what ours does, and yet we have all of this wind energy. We have all this.

[Ian Dale]

I was just saying, because we peg the price to gas, we peg the price to the gas supply. And if you remove gas or try and demote the importance of the.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, why do we do that, then?

[Ian Dale]

Well, good question. It's a bit like changing your bank. It's bloody hard once you're stuck with a certain system.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Actually, I did change my bank about four years ago, but it was actually quite easy.

[Ian Dale]

It's a good question, actually. If anyone can throw further light on that, we've got listeners who are way more intelligent than we are. Keeps me up at night sometimes. Some of their questions. A lot of questions coming in at the back end of the pod. And so much interest about my quest to get a Romanian GCSE in. Much more interested than you are.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm very interested in it. I've been promoting it to, in fact, at least one Cabinet minister, if not two. So don't have a go at me, otherwise I might stop. But.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, okay. God, is that a threat or a promise?

[Tessa Dunlop]

It is a threat.

[Ian Dale]

Heaven Forefather, can I just tell you quickly something that's quite shocking, though, that I've discovered about GCSEs? I know it's a long time since you did an exam and you never actually were around when GCSEs were introduced.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes, I was. In fact, I was doing the pilot GCSEs in 1978 in maths and biology. So there really.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, gosh, was that a real fart?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I didn't know if it was.

[Ian Dale]

God Almighty. He's the size of an elephant, by the way. It's my word. And the mangiro hasn't helped. I've discovered, and to call me naive, that actually Bridget Phillipson, although a very important person, and I do need her blessing and support, she cannot control what exams are taken up by exam boards and offered as GCSEs. There are four exam boards in this country and they decide ultimately what becomes a gcse. And already signed off, with the approval of the Secretary of Education, is a Ukrainian GCSE and a British Sign Language gcse. And neither have been taken up by the exam boards. Neither. And so therefore, this is. By the way, you may roll your eyes and think, it's not a big deal, Ian, but our education.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Don't roll my eyes. Don't give people the impression that I did.

[Ian Dale]

You might have done. I felt there was a little internally.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I might have done.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, exactly. I know you so well, I could tell. Actually. This is me wanging. By the way, it's my own back for that earlier Aberdeen wang. But, Ian, if you Think of the dei. Do you know what DEI stands for?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Diversity, Equality and Inclusion.

[Ian Dale]

Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. But you can get a B for the effort. That is the sort of benchmark, isn't it, that much of our education system is directed by and aspires to. And yet because exam boards won't offer a Ukrainian GCSE or a British Sign Language gcse, what does that say about the value of those pupils who by the way, can study a Russian GCSE or, you know, can speak fluently in a. In a language understood by those who don't, you know, that don't rely on oral communication. And they're totally devalued because they have not had their subject accredited with our system. A decision taken by four private bodies, exam boards. I think it's very wrong.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Okay, should we have a break?

[Ian Dale]

I told you I'll be bloody listening. I told you, Corey. How can I get people to care if I can't convince my own bloody podcast Pont.

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[Tessa Dunlop]

Who would have thought that the hero of this afternoon would have been Diane Abbott?

[Ian Dale]

That's because you like Punch and Judy style question and answer brouhaha. Winners and losers, politics. I was quite content with Keir Starmer's process, to be honest with you. Didn't need that kind of. What did she say again? Let's just remind ourselves of the question.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, let's actually play it out. I mean, the question is like two minutes long, so let's just play the last 20 seconds or so. Because it was a bit of a killer question, wasn't it?

[Peter Mandelson (quoted)]

Peter Mandelson has a history. Peter has a history. And what this house wants to know is why. Knowing Peter Manson's history going back now 30 years and given what has been known, it's one thing to say, as he insists on saying, nobody told me. Nobody told me anything. Nobody told me. The question is, why didn't the Prime Minister ask?

[Tessa Dunlop]

So I think that was a bit of a killer question. And he completely fluffed the reply. Now you say, oh, I just like Punch and Judy. Politics today was an opportunity for the Prime Minister to tell us everything that he knew. And to be fair, in his opening statement, he had a choice. He either went in all guns blazing and took all of his critics on in a very sort of brutal way, or, or he was contrite and calm and reserved and just sort of wouldn't let himself get annoyed. And he took the second option, which I think was probably the right one. So I thought his statement was okay as far as it went, but it was still, well, everyone else is to blame but me type statement.

[Ian Dale]

But that's what he was doing. He was defending himself, Ian. That's what you do when you defend yourself.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Of course, but there was no acknowledgement,

[Ian Dale]

it was at the top, that he

[Tessa Dunlop]

should have known about this.

[Ian Dale]

He said at the top. It was a gross error of judgment. I shouldn't have appointed Peter Mandelson.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He said that before.

[Ian Dale]

Well, he's owned this already. Now we're getting into the weeds of how it happened.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anything I think he's done is thrown people consistently under the bus. I mean, you look at all the, all the senior people that he's either sacked or resigned over the 18 months that he's been Prime Minister. He's got a consistent record of doing that. He sacked Sir Oliver Robbins. Now I happen to agree that I don't think that what Oliver Robbins did was right, but to do it in the actually quite brutal way that he did do it this afternoon, it's gonna be very interesting to see what happens tomorrow morning. I mean, people will be getting this tomorrow, so this morning, because if I was Ollie Robbins listening to that, I think, well, fuck you, I'm gonna go for it.

[Ian Dale]

Do you know, it's interesting, but he's

[Tessa Dunlop]

a civil servant, so he probably won't.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I was hearing a lot of commentary and almost all of it. Ollie Robbins, the kind of pin up civil servant that has had this hallmark unimpeachable career. And indeed, I think it was Baroness Kennedy, a Labour peer who said this morning that she thought the decision to fire him was precipitous. And then I was listening to Keir Starmer having also been reminded of Ollie Robbins spat with David Davis when he was Brexit Minister under the Theresa May administration led to David Davis's resignation because basically, more or less, yes, the unschooling of the situation. Ollie backed his Prime Minister over his ministry.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That wasn't the reason David Davis resigned.

[Ian Dale]

No, but it contributed you just said it was. Well, I think there was a cause and effect and certainly David Davis talking about it today allowed one to. To reach that conclusion, that it paved the way to his departure.

[Tessa Dunlop]

There's no doubt about it that David Davis didn't appreciate the fact that he went behind his back on many occasions to the Prime Minister. You're right on that point. But, I mean, there are various things at play here. Ollie Robbins has a background in the security services. He was basically. He applied to be the head of MI5 and Keir Starmer didn't appoint him as head of MI5. I'm not suggesting that there's cause and effect here. And one thing I didn't know. Do you remember when the Guardian's offices were raided over the Edward Snowden thing?

[Ian Dale]

Yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That was Ollie Robbins. He was actually there physically present when it happened. It's quite something, isn't it? So, I mean, he. It's interesting just to get that sort of background to this. I mean, he is a senior guy. He spent a couple of years outside the Civ. When he left after Brexit, I think it was. Was it Morgan Stanley or JP Morgan, one of these big American banks that he worked for, then came back into the civil Service in the middle of

[Ian Dale]

this appointment, where he was certainly the Mandelson appointment was midway through due process when Ollie Robbins is appointed to the Foreign Office. That's the other peculiar thing about this story, is he doesn't arrive until halfway through Act 1 of appointing Peter Mandelson. But the point I was going to

[Tessa Dunlop]

say, I think he'd only been office for two and a half weeks when the appointment was announced.

[Ian Dale]

Exactly. So I. But I think the way in which he clearly took executive decisions all by himself and then subsequently didn't do what you might call fessing up if you were still at school. I later on post the sacking of Peter Mandelson when there were questions about due process. He never actually said to David Lammy or Keir Starmer actually, you know, he failed.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. I mean, it's actually worse than that, though, because what he did, and this is why I have some sympathy with Starmer here, what he did was allow Keir Starmer to mislead Parliament.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, yes. And that speaks to his arrogance.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And Starmer. Well, possibly. Well, what it speaks to is a complete failure of our system where, I mean, to my mind, the Prime Minister of this country has the right to know everything. There is no differentiation between telling civil servants or ministers. He is the Prime Minister, he's the person who runs this country and therefore has every right to know not only if Peter Mandelson had failed the vetting, but why?

[Ian Dale]

Right. And so I'd like to speak to two things on this front. I think the way in which everyone from Douglas Alexander to Baroness Kennedy to, I don't know, people in all the leading comments in yesterday's newspapers were talking in the most hallowed, in reverential terms about Ollie Robbins. It gave the impression of this untouchable individual. He's tall, he's reasonably handsome, he's credible. He is the personification of the authority gap. I've never heard anybody speak about a female public servant in those terms, and I swear to God I haven't. Ian. He was untouchable. It reminded me of way back in the day when I had every week a different producer when I was on the radio, and the laziest producer was a tall, upstanding man. And I always dreaded the following Monday because I knew you wouldn't have done a damn thing. And when I took it to management, they said, oh, but he's our best producer. And I thought, you think that because he looks like he should be your best producer, and Ollie Robbins embodies what I call a British Establishment.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But I think it's worse than that. And you'll probably think this is a conspiracy theory too far. The reasons why Ollie Robbins is revered within the Civil Service is because he was the remainer's remainer.

[Ian Dale]

All right, I thought the. I thought, why has Ian let me get away with man bashing? And it was because you were getting onto a bigger point of remain bashing. You let me win that battle to win your Brexit war.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I mean, he does. He looks the part, doesn't he? I mean, I actually didn't know what he looked like until yesterday, but he looks like a proper civil servant. You can imagine him appearing in. Yes, Prime Minister. And I mean, it's no doubt about it, he's a very clever guy. I'm not displaying. But his defense that, oh, well, it would be improper for a civil servant to tell ministers anything about security vetting. It's bollocks. Keir Starmer was right. There is no law that says you can't do that. I mean, it might not have been appropriate to give all the details of why he failed, but all the Prime Minister needs to know is that he failed and he didn't. Well, he said he wasn't told that and nor was anybody else. Well, that is a failure of the state.

[Ian Dale]

It's Absolute bollocks. I think also little Kirs got one up on this big handsome civil servant, formerly untouchable. I love it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He might have today, but whether he will have done by tomorrow, I don't know. But the thing is, I mean, a few people have entered this debate who've actually been in number 10. I mean, somebody I know who was a chief of staff in number 10. So they find it inconceivable that the Prime Minister wouldn't have known about this. Dominic Cummings.

[Ian Dale]

But do you believe Keir Starmer? I believe him when he said he didn't know. And I think even Kemi did today because she tried to hang him up to dry on his fumbling behavior last week. But she. I think she realized he's not the liar she said he was.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I've never accused him of lying. I mean, it is lying by omission.

[Ian Dale]

Well, certainly Kemi did. Kemi was quick to call him a liar.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I thought she was brilliant today. I thought she was forensic, I thought she was calm. She didn't go for the histrionics, which I think a lot of people might have expected. And she had him on the ropes. His body language throughout the whole. I mean, the questions are still going on. It's what, now? 20 past five? So he's been answering questions now for nearly two hours now, that's not unprecedented because Boris Johnson certainly used to do that and Rishi Sunak did. But his whole body language, he was like a reed sort of waving in the wind. His voice was weak, his arguments were repetitive. And I suppose that's inevitable in a sense because you are often asked similar questions by different people. But there were some really good questions. And in actual fact, this ought to say to the British people, well, this is Parliament doing its work. It's at its best in these situations where nobody was just making petty political points. They were asking reasonable questions which the Prime Minister should have been able to answer. And he, to be fair to him, he did attempt to answer questions. I mean, there were a few times when you thought, well, you didn't really. I mean, he went through her six questions which she'd given him pre sight of, which is never done normally. He did answer some of them, but not really, not to the extent that he probably needed to to get out of this once and for all.

[Ian Dale]

I feel what's interesting is this is red meat to the likes of you, and I totally understand why you are 100 political. It's the lightning rod that drives you from morning till night. And while you say you don't know what you were doing in Aberdeen. I bet you were actually rummaging around in your brain for good analogies. I thought the one you came up with, by the way, on Thursday evening was very good. Kelvin McKenzie pouring a bucket of over John Major.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, that monologue that I did on Thursday evening, that, I mean, I was. I sort of almost hesitate to say this because it sounds self aggrandizing, but I think it's the best one I've ever done.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, did you hear that, Corey?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Corey does as well, Ian.

[Ian Dale]

Self aggrandizing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've never heard of like on you. They put it on YouTube and it got a lot of traction.

[Ian Dale]

You were good.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And I got 400 extra Twitter followers out of it.

[Ian Dale]

Good. I thought you were. I thought you were credit where credit's due. You were very good. But what I'm moving on to say is, but for people like me, who are much more, I'm sort of a fringe player. I expect government to get stuff done to keep me safe, safe to deliver for my idea of Britain. And when I feel it keeps on getting blown off course, and we spoke about this last week, I get really frustrated. I want to sort of just, I don't know, give them a good kicking, you know, I mean, we're not allowed to do that these days. Obviously the era of the Jewel is over. I feel sure. I would have beaten Starmer, by the way, but I was brought up short when I was pomoning it and said, oh God, I'm gonna have to go into the pod and talk about all this with Ian. He'll be loving it, getting in the weeds and working out whether Starmer's a liar or a truth slayer. And actually my old ph professor said, yes, but what you must remember is that this obsession with process, while it is all consuming and it sucks the oxygen out of government and it delays things and it leaves people feeling frustrated, it prevents us and our system of delivering a Trump and therefore we must endure. And I thought it was a very good point.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I think it goes way beyond process because this is in the end about competence. It is about truth, but that is

[Ian Dale]

what process is about.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And the argument that, oh, the general public aren't interested in this. It's a Westminster bubble issue, okay? I'm sure there are people whose head goes straight over, but when you see memes going around social media taking the piss out of him for being furious because he didn't know where, I mean, there's one sort of. Well, I didn't know I was Prime Minister. Why didn't any of my staff tell me I was prime minister? I mean, okay, so it's a weak joke in a way, but when you have a serious political situation and it develops so that you actually become a butt of people's jokes, that is the worst position for a politician to be in.

[Ian Dale]

It's undignified. But I think the broader point is Ian. And it was spoken to by this friend of mine who's a film director. He's German, but he lives in America. And he'd always been quite a MAGA fan. And I sort of of goaded him since the start of this Iran war with Hay. You know, he directed the Lives of Others, you know, the German film. Exactly that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

One very good film.

[Ian Dale]

And he wrote to me, and it speaks to what's happening in America that I don't think could happen in Britain, partly because of the process. And even as we speak, to give Starmer his due, since the unraveling, the latest unraveling of Mandelson in September, he's tightened the process so that actually we don't now have people in appointment who haven't yet been vetted. For example. Anyway, just to go to Florian's text, he said, but even quote. But even I did not anticipate Trump becoming the war criminal and violator of sovereignty that he turned out to be. I thought the American institutions would provide more structure and defense against something like this. I was naive. Now, call me naive, but I believe that we couldn't have a Trump behaving in the way that he's doing in Britain. And that's partly because of President.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't think we could either. But then again, you'd never get a repeat Trump. I mean, people try and make out that Farage is some sort of Trump. He just isn't.

[Ian Dale]

No, but he'd be bloody awful for the country. So let's not. Let's not give that a try.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let's not even go down that road. But Farage has a respect for British institutions and process that Trump just doesn't have. So I don't think that really works now. I have no idea where this is going to go. A lot will depend on what Ollie Robbins says to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee tomorrow. And it's very interesting because, of course, Emily Thornbury is yet another one of these people that Starmer has offended because she was in his shadow Cabinet. She expected to be in the Cabinet and then wasn't.

[Ian Dale]

You can't please everyone.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, you can't no, you can't. But he's gratuitously offended so many people. I mean, he's gratuitously offended the speaker last week by having a spat with him at the dispatch box. Not the dispatch box by the Speaker's chair. And hey presto, today the speaker calls all of Starmer's enemies on the Labour backbenches.

[Ian Dale]

Politicians are so God damn politicians.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, so they might be, but it's life. They're human beings as well.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, don't we know it. With giant slippery egos. How many do you think will turn up to my event next week?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I'm a bit worried about how many might turn up, if I'm honest with you.

[Ian Dale]

Do you not think anyone?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Because. No, because I think that it's. Well, I've told you this before, I think it's been organized too quickly.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it's the first one. Events, dear boy, events. Will we go to a break?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Have you been watching Channel 5 over the weekend?

[Ian Dale]

Do you have any idea how busy I am? Channel 5. Channel 5. How do you have time to watch Channel 5 when you're stuck in an airport?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I haven't been watching Channel 5, but John, my partner has.

[Ian Dale]

Right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And apparently I've been the star of Channel 5 over the weekend.

[Ian Dale]

Was it earlier that Ian apologized? Is this a self aggrandizing number two?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, it's not. I'm just stating a fact. Apparently Next Saturday Channel 5 are doing this documentary on the royal state visit of which I recorded bits of talking heads last week.

[Ian Dale]

Is this you replacing me?

[Tessa Dunlop]

And apparently every ad break they've been having an advert for this program in which I say about three words, but I'm the only talking head on the ad break, so I'm feeling rather chuffed about that. I haven't seen it myself.

[Ian Dale]

And who was it that got you in as a royal correspondent?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, Tati.

[Ian Dale]

And who got you in with an agent for television?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I actually had a zoom with Tati this morning.

[Ian Dale]

And who was it that got you in with Tati? Thank you very much.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You now so regret it.

[Ian Dale]

Now, what was that? Yeah, I do. Because it's more confidence for this mediocre white man who sits in front of me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Mediocre? I think I've given you two reasons to explain why I'm not mediocre.

[Ian Dale]

In this book podcast, I would like to talk about the exceptionally ordinary and therefore even more exceptional individual that is the Queen. I had an interview for Women's Hour on Friday, Ian, because it's the Queen's or would have been the Queen's 100th birthday.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So you've actually already done it. I thought, it's live tomorrow.

[Ian Dale]

No, it's live tomorrow. But they checked whether I had something worth saying, obviously, and all I could do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You still passed that test?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Have they listened to the podcast?

[Ian Dale]

No, but the first thing I had to get off my chest was Romanian GCSE. So she listened. She listened to 15 minutes of that. Surprisingly, she didn't say, could we change our mind and book you to talk about that?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I wonder why.

[Ian Dale]

But she sounded quite like, oh, I suppose we better now talk about the Queen. Like, she did it quite well. She flat at me. But one of the questions that's interested me was, you know, we're talking about, you know, her success, how she's remembered, obviously, and I'm hugely grateful for being asked about, you know, statues to her. What was interesting about the woman who interviewed, she was of Jamaican heritage and she said to me, I don't really like statues, I hate statues. No statues that I like. And then she said, oh, but I love the Mary Seacor statue. And I was like, there you are. It's because there aren't enough statues that speak to you, but you like the statue that speaks to you. Mary Seacoil, you know, the Crimean War nurse, Jamaica, et cetera.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I do know who she is, I

[Ian Dale]

know, but some other people might not. And so it's useful. She asked me about the Queen in relation to her colonial legacy and reputation. And I'm still working out how I'm going to answer that question if it's posed tomorrow. But it did make me think of the feminine aspect of the Queen's reign, the idea that as a symbol, obviously she was unavoidably a woman from the beginning to end, either a young, unimpeachable Queen or this maternal, slightly middle aged figure halfway through her reign. And then latterly, the national treasure with grey hair, everyone's granny brackets who didn't hug. And that was this sugar coating, if you like, for a really difficult transition period for Britain. And when I looked into it and you look at the numbers and the size of Britain and Britain's empire in the 1930s and then this extraordinary diminishment, global diminishment. So by the 1960s, well, there's just a few rocks and islands left that call themselves Great Britain and its empire and how she somehow symbolised this conjurer's trick. She made us feel it was all

[Tessa Dunlop]

alright, really well, she managed the transition, didn't she? From empire to Commonwealth.

[Ian Dale]

And also, if we put it more boldly, from being a global power to being a mid ranking industrial nation. And she made us feel okay about it. And what was interesting was when I heard the question, I thought, but am I meant to? Should I? I mean, there's no pressure on me to answer either way. But is there? And there is, by the way, from some quarters, an implicit criticism that the Queen didn't own her family and her nation's colonial legacy more. And I wonder how you would respond to that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, the way you phrase that is. I mean, it's kind of typical the way those questions are asked because it's on the assumption that the whole of our colonial legacy was bad. And I would reject that assumption. I think as a nation, I mean, we gave independence to all of these different countries.

[Ian Dale]

Or they took it in some cases.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, some took it, but mostly we did it in a way that was managed reasonably well. I mean, India, you could certainly argue was not, but I'm not sure that it could ever have been handled particularly well. I think there would have always been these sort of internal conflicts. But in most countries it was managed without too much violence or conflict. And most of those countries still operate, unless they're dictatorships now. They still operate a similar system to the one that we do.

[Ian Dale]

Which country, African country, was first to claim its independence? Can you give me the year and the country?

[Tessa Dunlop]

God, no.

[Ian Dale]

If I give you the name of the president, would that help? Yeah, probably will say it wrong. You'll love telling me that I've said it wrong. And Kruma Kwazi Nkrumah?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No idea.

[Ian Dale]

Ghana, 1957. Why that's significant is she then had this planned visit to go to Ghana, this first country, to basically reject her. And I did think of all the male posturing at the moment and this hyper masculine world that we're operating in, where there is no nuance, there's very little compromise. It's the antithesis in so many ways of what the Queen represented. The late Queen, where it was all about actually holding this really broad, challenging church together and. And when he was in opposition. Even Winston Churchill cautioned about her going on this visit to this new Republic, Ghana, in 1961. She'd already turned them down or let them down in 59 because she was pregnant with Andrew. God, Andrew was a problem before he was even born, to be honest, wasn't he? God's sake. But she insists on going. It was seen as a risk because there was a lot of violence. In fact, the President himself had been targeted. He was hugely charismatic, but there was a real fear that Khrushchev was trying to woo him and he was looking for investment into his new independent country. And the Queen was absolutely adamant that she had to go. And she actually declared at some point how silly I should look if I was scared to visit Ghana. And then Khrushchev went and had a good reception and she actually told the Prime Minister, I'm not a film star, I'm the head of the Commonwealth and I'm paid to face any risk that may be involved. Nor do I say this lightly, do not forget I have three children. Although I think sometimes she forgot she had three children. But anyway, that's the side issue on the Queen.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, let me give you a quiz question.

[Ian Dale]

Yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Which Prime Minister and in which year made a similar decision to go to challenging former colony, a Commonwealth country? It was for a Chogham meeting and she was advised not to go because of the fear.

[Ian Dale]

There's not been that many Prime Ministers who begin with a huge sense, well,

[Tessa Dunlop]

it was Margaret Thatcher in 1979. She was attending, I think it was the Commonwealth Herzogen in Lusaka. And apparently there was intelligence there that she might have acid thrown in her face.

[Ian Dale]

But I thought she also didn't want the Queen to go to that. She was worried about the Queen's safety at that particular Commonwealth visit. There was tension between the two.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't know about that. But she did go, though I think she might have worn dark glasses as she came off the plane in case there was acid thrown at her.

[Ian Dale]

Well, we know that as Macron has worked out, it can embolden one's image and give one a certain je ne sais quoi.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But just going only for weak minded

[Ian Dale]

women, just going back to the Queen. She was then revered by a neo Marxist newspaper in Ghana as being the ultimate Soviet Queen. They couldn't get enough of her. She danced with Nkrumah, they just gobbled her up. And later the Prime Minister rings up JF Kennedy and he goes, I've sacrificed my Queen. You invest in that goddamn country. And American money came in and it kept it out of the Russian side of the Cold War. And it was seen as a big win for monarchy, for British American relations and for Ghana.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And Ghana comes so far because I think this year it's outlawed homosexuality.

[Ian Dale]

Well, there we are. It's a big love cycle. It really all is. But I think what that spoke to was the Queen's ability to shake off rejection. That's the first country that basically I think to begin with they claim their independence and she's Queen still. And then they're like no, we'll sack off the Queen as well. We'll just become a full blown republic. So that's kind of two knocks.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But they're still in the Commonwealth.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, they are but. But if you think every time a country departed they generally also shelved the Queen. She's only now head of 14 as it states. Well she is, she's dead now but the King and the way in which she just took those body blows and actually they all end up saying we love the Queen, the individual. And I thought yeah, because although she's got this incredibly powerful and perhaps because she has this incredibly powerful role, she always knew she was, was arguably the most eye catching important person in the room. She didn't have to do this appalling gesticulating we get from the likes of Trump.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Isn't it interesting though that in the three years since she's been dead I don't think there's been a single country that has left the Commonwealth. And I did wonder whether that might happen once she went, whether it might all change and I don't think why is Jamaica in this? Because didn't they get rid of her as actual head of state or were they going to. Or was it Barbados? One or the other Barbados. They were certainly thinking about it.

[Ian Dale]

There was, but that was before she died. I think Charles went to the flag lowering. Can we check? It was Barbados.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Corey, as far as I'm aware, no one, no country has made a move to leave the Commonwealth.

[Ian Dale]

Do you not think this is partly because of the strong man thesis that operating with impunity. No, I mean it that the kind of uncertainty in a world that's on fire.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But do you definitely come back to this strong man thing?

[Ian Dale]

Because I think we're in a really, we're in quite a fearful time. It's one of the reasons why Keir Starmer by the way, I don't think Will immediately, immediately was that because of all the Mandelson hoo ha is because actually there's, there's bigger fish out there and the scarier sharks and the Commonwealth why you could have a go at it or she just slips her son in, you know, some ridiculous post imperial organization with no power. But actually I think small countries are realizing, you know, if we can belong to something, if there can be somewhere some kind of refuge that makes a bit of sense, we'll hold on to that. A broad church for example like the Commonwealth, it's the lesser of two evils. If you want to see it as an evil post imperial construct.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I don't.

[Ian Dale]

No, I know. But many do, don't they? Always looking.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Who does? Apart from communists? Who on earth thinks of the Commonwealth as an evil post imperial construct, apart from the likes of Zara fucking Sultana or Zack fucking Polanski?

[Ian Dale]

It was a huge number, actually, of sort of academics and professors.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, all on the hard left.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I'm sure many of them are driven by ideological concerns, but the idea that the Commonwealth is not criticised is for the birds. And the fact that you express surprise, no one's left. It speaks to either its ideological inconvenience or its lack of utility. And I.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It doesn't speak to either of those.

[Ian Dale]

Why did you think people might leave

[Tessa Dunlop]

it when the Queen died? I thought there was.

[Ian Dale]

Why?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Because she wasn't there anymore. She was the one that bound it all together. But actually what we found in the last three years, it was stronger than her.

[Ian Dale]

So in other words, that speaks to its endurance and its utility. So you're. So you're countering your thesis there because. By suggesting.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I'm not. You're just trying to pervert it.

[Ian Dale]

No, but I think you were suggesting the Queen was the only important thing about this group of nations.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think she was the most important thing.

[Ian Dale]

But not the only important thing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Now we've discovered, obviously.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, so I don't want to argue with you.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, you're doing bloody good impression.

[Ian Dale]

No, it was just. The inference was without the Queen, it's pointless. And I'm saying, actually, when you have people like Trump with all this Willy waggling actually makes us think it's not such a bad thing to hang out with who's in the Commonwealth. Let me have a little think, my brain. Australia and Rwanda. Indeed, yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Rwanda actually applied to Georgia.

[Ian Dale]

Malaysia. Malaysia.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Because Rwanda was always in the French sphere of influence and once the French did the dirty over them in the genocide. Rwanda has pivoted to. I mean, Tony Blair started this and David Cameron carried it on. It's pivoted to Britain and they're now a full member of the Commonwealth. Commonwealth?

[Ian Dale]

I think it's one of the few.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think it's one or two other countries that have joined.

[Ian Dale]

There are a couple. And you know what? One of the binding issues that holds them together is partly because a lot of them are small countries and exposed.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, it used to be British international aid, but we don't really do that anymore.

[Ian Dale]

No, it's some. It's climate concern, is it? Yeah, that'll be the climate, Ian. The. The existential crisis that no one talks about anymore. So 2017, I'm told as the penguins. The Empire penguins die. Corey, time for a break. We've got rather hot in here.

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[Tessa Dunlop]

Right, we're going to do some questions now.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, This. A super listener sent me this question and I've cropped the picture and I've lost her name. I'm really upset about it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, she'll be very upset.

[Ian Dale]

She flagged that. Oti Mabusi, most famous dancer to ever, ever, ever appear on Strictly Come Dancing. All right, is. Drum roll please. Married to second. Drumroll, please.

[Tessa Dunlop]

A Romanian.

[Ian Dale]

Yes. And has.

[Tessa Dunlop]

How did I guess that?

[Ian Dale]

A three year old child. She said. Tess. I wasn't aware that Ota Mabusi's husband's Romanian. She may be a great voice to get involved in your Romanian GCSE campaign. She's very popular, has great reach and also has a daughter, so could have personal interest. Funnily enough, my lovely Romanian, you know the one I. I won in the ball for £250. It's not a slave. She's good at her job. I recommend her to anyone. By the way, who wants a virtual assistant. She's been amazing. She's got all these people and she's done all the paperwork and everything. She's even got us £4,000 worth of sponsorship for our event.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, you told us this.

[Ian Dale]

I'm telling you again. But she said to me about a Week ago. She said, tess, what do you think about someone coming with a. With a child? And I said, well, how old is the child? Thinking secondary school children are good. And she said, said this is young. A three year old. And I said, no, no, no children under 10. And then when I got that post in from. From one of our listeners, I rang up Georgiana. I said, hey, Georgiana is. You mentioned the otamabusi. Because I already knew she had a Romanian dancer partner. I said, you mentioned she might be coming. Can we double check? Is she still coming? And Georgiana went, oh, no, no. I told her not to come because you said there were to be no children. I was like, what? What? No, no. Otma Boosie. She can bring an entire family. She can bring everyone she wants to bring. She can be bring a hundred children like this. Can you believe it? Anyway, she got back in contact.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Enough of your fucking remaining.

[Ian Dale]

No, but you're not interested in the Ota movie, sister. I thought that was quite a funny story.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'd never heard of her until she was on Strictly. I don't even watch Strictly.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but she's, she's a big deal. Anyway, give us a question. That was from a listener. So somebody.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right. This is from my Auntie Eileen.

[Ian Dale]

Okay.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Love the thought of Tessa Dunlop getting the better of Piers Morgan. He hasn't an ounce of the intelligence she has. I haven't watched any of your podcasts with her. Well, that's because you can't as she. As I can't manage to get Global player for some reason. You can also download it on Apple Podcasts, Auntie Eileen, which I have email.

[Ian Dale]

Can't you go do it for her? Go and visit the old girl.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She's one of these older people who doesn't seem. She's never seemed old to me. She's from your neck of the woods.

[Ian Dale]

Chop chop.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I'm on form today, aren't I?

[Ian Dale]

Not really, no.

[Tessa Dunlop]

When the grandchildren are about, I will get it sorted. It won't be long before the six year old can do it. I'm feisty though. And a Scott.

[Ian Dale]

What's her question?

[Tessa Dunlop]

That. What? That wasn't a question, that was just a comment on you and Piers Morgan. I thought you'd like to hear it.

[Ian Dale]

It's good. This one is from Shushila. Thanks, Auntie Eileen. This is from Shushila. Another listener. Hi, Tess. Love the pod. Don't tell Ian, but I prefer you. Actually says I prefer you to Jackie, but I might just say I prefer you. Okay, You're Better at pushing back. Yeah, I know. That's what Ian thinks. That's one of my big problems in life. Shashila. Anyway, she says, I was talking to my son, head of mfl, whatever that is, a large comp in London. He's organizing all the language GCSEs at the moment and he absolutely agrees there should be one in Romanian. He has a question for you. As a relatively new father living in Brixton, do you have any recommendations for a primary school? Oh, okay. I thought that was a question for the pod. I did read it, but I'm so pleased she wrote to me and was engaged in. In the remaining story. I did actually privately send her messages for a recommendation of my local primary, but she didn't seem to be so engaged by the idea of a primary school that's only 67% full. I said that was a selling point. And we're like a cottage. Cottage industry school. We all know each other right now.

[Tessa Dunlop]

This is going to be an interesting one. This is from Chris. Dear pseudo Professor Ian. And thanks, John Major, for making it a real university for your PhD. Dr. Tessa.

[Ian Dale]

What a wanker. Do you need to read it out?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I have listened to every single one of these podcasts and it's substantially more enjoyable than the precursor, but I'm really struggling to continue listening.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, what have we done?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let me continue. Dr. Dunlop expresses more double standards than anyone I've come across, aside those who write for the Groniad Tortoise or navara. And as much as Ian's ability to make any story about himself is equally irksome, I can cope with that, as we've all had to be Billy Big Balls from time to time. Any mention of a man we are the minority in this country causes Dr. Dunlop to squeal in anguish and it's tiresome. Who does? She thinks fuels the manosphere she regularly mentions and attributes all societal blame to. In last week's podcast, she complained that President Trump has no control over his wife.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, not that wife.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Which is one of the most ghastly ways of un. Undermining a fellow lady. Can she make her mind up? Let us not forget Dr. D's impressive lineage as a pseudo aristocratic Scot. And her begging for Ian's connections is below her class. This is great. Which isn't the working class she purports to be. Although he says pre ports to be.

[Ian Dale]

I don't say I'm working class.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've never said her private education, of which she had no choice, like three years.

[Ian Dale]

I Had three years of private education

[Tessa Dunlop]

by her regular subject. Skipping habit. But how dare I, as a man, mention the truth? I'll keep trying to listen, but why should I when she constantly states how much she hates me and other British men? Maybe she can try and pronounce her misandrist hobby correctly. Please, Dr. Tessa, stop cutting Ian off when the truth doesn't adhere to your narrative.

[Ian Dale]

You cut me off way more than I cut you off. But you know, on double standards. I have another text on a more minor issue, but again, a double standard, apparently.

[Tessa Dunlop]

This is from, you see, Ed Balls and George Osborne. They would never read out any of these that were against them, would they?

[Ian Dale]

I don't know who this is from. Please, when you write a message, can you just put your name at the end of it? Because what I do is I take screenshots of them and then I don't see who they're from. But anyway, he writes. I think it's a he. I both loved your latest episode, listening to Tessa talk about her morning coffee. But I must say I'm incredibly disappointed in the now disgraced doctor. For someone who sings the praises of the eu, is she not aware that the European Parliament has recently voted against against plant based products having meat names, along with the ECJ ruling to limit milk to mammary secretions? Will you issue an apology and correctly refer it to Oat drink? Lots of love. He has a point. She.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He.

[Ian Dale]

She. They have a point.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right? Hello, Dale and Dunlop Trollope here again. Hope you're both well. Interesting to hear Tessa mention Hegseth and his invocation of militant Christian language in the last podcast. I happened to stumble across this article back on Friday, just after I finished listening to the episode. Seemed too relevant not to share. And then he shares it, which obviously I haven't clicked on. It's all about Pete Hext's Christianity in the Iron Iran War. The Guardian do have some good articles every now and then. Well, they had a great scoop on Keir Starmer's vetting, didn't they? Also a slight but not complete change of tone. Topic. The Times or the Spectator? I have enough of an income to realistically afford a subscription to only one. Which do I choose? Or should I go for something else? A GB News subscription? Maybe that was a joke. P.S. my birthday is on Tuesday 14th April. We're a bit late with this one, so if you were to wish me a happy 30th birthday, I'd be one happy trollop. Well, happy belated birthday wishes. Happy trollope. Develop if you. So if you had to choose one, the Times or the Spectator, you would obviously go for the Times.

[Ian Dale]

No, I would go for the Financial Times over both of those, to be honest.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I have to say, since you recommended that I get a Financial Time subscription. Well, when we say recommend. Yeah, it. Actually, I've been enjoying it.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They do have some really good articles.

[Ian Dale]

They're not pandering for clicks. It's become debased, I think, the Times.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's so tabloid. I've almost been driven to doing the Guardian thing because I just so fed up with. Every time you click on a Guardian article, half the page disappears, I think. So this is what we're up against.

[Ian Dale]

Given your wealth, I think you should actually. And given that you believe in journalism and you're now in a privileged old age with free injections, I think the least you could do is pay a Guardian subscription. Incidentally, when Ian says, like in a week when I'm writing about Meghan Markle just to be able to fund my Romanian GCSE campaign, and he goes, you're raking in. Actually, you know, I can write articles all week. No, I'm. Cut this bit, actually, Corey, I've changed my mind. I didn't want to. Otherwise people will say you're obsessed with money and Ian earning more than you. It's not an obsession, it's just a fact. Thank you. I've managed to self edit. That was disciplined, wasn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Leave that bit in. Corey.

[Ian Dale]

I hate you. Do you know, I've got to go because I've got to rehearse for Women's

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hour and I've got a program.

[Ian Dale]

Do you think I should talk to the Mirror?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Just rehearse for Woman's Hour?

[Ian Dale]

Get four minutes and I want to make key points and get a book

[Tessa Dunlop]

reference and mention where politics meets history.

[Ian Dale]

Do you know, I always. Tonight on Times Radio, I will plug the pod.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Did you see the BBC program on the Queen last night?

[Ian Dale]

I should have watched it, but I was so busy having original thoughts about the Queen, I didn't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I only saw the last 15 minutes. It's actually really good.

[Ian Dale]

What was it saying?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, it was. It was one hour of the Queen's Last Life. I can't. There's no message from it particularly, but I thought they just did it rather well.

[Ian Dale]

What do you feel about this new statue done by this sort of, you know, establishment player in architecture? Forster. And it's in. It's got to be involving a bridge, whereas all the designs are online. You can see there's a sort of bridge. And the whole point is, you know, she bridged lots of different areas.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's not a statue of her.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think that there might be somewhere in. In the actual edifice.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What I've been meaning to ask you is what do you think of the appointment of this woman to write her official biography? Biography, whose name I unfortunately can't remember.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. She is a bona fide historian who. I thought, of course, the irony won't have escaped the Royal House and I'm sure it's part of the decision behind her appointment. Writing most famously about Oliver Cromwell in the Enterigum, King Charles particularly wanted a woman. I know that Hugo Vickers was desperate to be the authorised biographer and was overlooked. Yeah. And I think it's only right that all these ghasts. And he's lovely, Hugo Vickers. But there are other sort of male cronies, you see.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The one I would have liked to have done it. And you won't like this at all. No, I don't like Charles Moore.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, no.

[Tessa Dunlop]

His biography of Thatcher. Honestly.

[Ian Dale]

But he's politicized. And the Queen wasn't political. That's the whole point. You can't have a politicized animal writing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I think he would have been. He's a historian as well. He would have been able to do it.

[Ian Dale]

And he's a man. It would have been a total miscast. No, terrible.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He would have a man writing a biography.

[Ian Dale]

I'm sorry, King Charles wanted a woman. But what immediately undermines that whole idea of kind of some truth slaying exercise and, and history deliverance is that she said it was such an honor. Well, if you're feeling honored, of course it's an honor. I know.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You're telling me that if they picked you, you wouldn't have thought it was an honor.

[Ian Dale]

I just think to say that it's an honor. I don't think feeling honoured suggests all.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She's not even being paid for it.

[Ian Dale]

Of course she's going to earn a fortune.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, she's not going to get any

[Ian Dale]

advance, but, well, she's got a staff. She's a university appointed historian, isn't she? Doesn't she belong to the university?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't know.

[Ian Dale]

I wish I'd gone into it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, she runs a charity, doesn't she?

[Ian Dale]

Don't worry about her making money from the project.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm not worrying about it. All I'm saying is that she has not. Normally for a book like this, you would be paid in advance of Several hundred thousand pounds and she's not going a penny. Now she will earn money from the royalties clearly so she's not going to be sort of poor from it. But it's just the honour.

[Ian Dale]

How can I interrogate my subject if I'm feeling honoured by them?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, easily.

[Ian Dale]

It's time to call a day on this I think is I'm off to Onostana.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We've only got one more podcast to do before I depart these shores for the United States of America for my

[Ian Dale]

Westminster event with the Romanian GCs which

[Tessa Dunlop]

I can't go to.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, the policing minister emailed me from Croydon. Sarah Jones?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. No, she listens to the podcast.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I love her.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She was an absolute devotee of all the many.

[Ian Dale]

Well she, she listened, she emailed me and I emailed her back but she didn't reply. I think maybe I just got too much. She. Everyone's busy. Oh fuck off. Don't worry, I'm sure. I think still there'll be one or two MPs.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Next Tuesday's episode will be coming from the United States.

[Ian Dale]

We haven't worked out when we're actually going to record it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The time difference is a bit of a bugger.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. And as we've established I'm in Westminster and you're in Washington.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, we'll have to do it.

[Ian Dale]

We'll work it out.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Of course you are. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, Ian.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes, we might have to record it on Sunday evening.

[Ian Dale]

Your problematic then.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We can't do that because Corey will be. Be Cory's going on a lads stag do to Prague this weekend and next week he's going to come on the microphone and report all the salacious goings on and how many.

[Ian Dale]

Ian. Oh cut that bit Corey. This has been so much ripping into this pod needs to be done before it's released on the poor unsuspecting general public.

[Tessa Dunlop]

K doesn't listen to this, does she?

[Ian Dale]

No.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Thank God.

[Ian Dale]

Where Politics Meets History for your follow up questions and your support.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Lots of questions. Goodbye.

[Ian Dale]

And five star reviews.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, we keep. We don't say that often enough. If you give us five star reviews and you leave a comment you can say whatever you like. You can say we do love the podcast but we do wish it was presented by Emily Maitlis and Piers Morgan. You can say that and we still get credit for it.

[Ian Dale]

Can I just tell you that the problem is quite a lot of people leave a one star review but there's balance.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do they?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. First there's a one star for you. You and then there's a one star for me. It's like either they really hate you or they really hate me. There's a sort of symbiotic thing going on among the 1 stars.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's better to be for people to have an opinion than just think we're vanilla and beige, isn't it? We're not that. No, we're certainly not. Goodbye ladies and gentlemen. I hope you've enjoyed our festiness in this podcast.

[Ian Dale]

I'm glad you attributed that to your gender as well as mine.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I did

[Ian Dale]

this.

[Tessa Dunlop]

This has been a global player original production.

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