119. Another near miss?

Summary

Podcast Summary

Where Politics Meets History – Episode 119: "Another near miss?"
Released: April 27, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale (broadcaster), Dr. Tessa Dunlop (historian)

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Overview

This episode centers on recent high-profile assassination attempts and state visits, particularly in the context of the United States and United Kingdom. Iain, podcasting live from Washington D.C., and Tessa, in the UK, use current headlines—most notably an attempted attack at a major political event in the US—as a springboard to analyze patterns of violence, security, and political symbolism through historical parallels. The discussion weaves in personal anecdotes, travel stories, and social commentary, punctuated with their trademark humor and candidness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking News: Assassination Attempt at a Political Event

[01:07 – 04:45]

• Iain recounts being in New York when news broke of a shooting at a major political event, initially rumored to be an assassination attempt on Trump but soon clarified.
• Security concerns are dissected, such as the permeability of hotel venues for weapon assembly (“Did they vet the people who were staying in that hotel…?” – Iain Dale, 02:52).
• Both hosts discuss the tendency for conspiracy theories to rapidly arise in the wake of such events, and Trump's typical reaction to criticism.

“He hasn’t blamed the Secret Service for the fact that this happened, which he easily could have done, but he must, behind the scenes, be absolutely furious about it.”
— Iain Dale [03:36]

2. Personal Anecdotes: Life, Loss, and Healthcare

[04:45 – 19:10]

• Tessa shares personal updates, including her mother's recent recovery from pneumonia—a segue into a discussion about health disparities in the UK and US.
• Candid conversation about losing friends unexpectedly, particularly in the context of inadequate health outcomes and social isolation. Tessa reflects movingly on the recent death of her autistic friend Mark and the emotional toll of illness and loss:

“I feel so angry that he’s died and I didn’t see him. So we’re now both crying at the beginning of podcast…”
— Tessa Dunlop [14:58]

• Connection made between socioeconomic status and health:

“…if you come from somewhere like Blackpool … you find your health is compromised from the age of 51, which is my age today.”
— Tessa Dunlop [06:22]

• Both hosts express frustration over the UK’s inability to debate NHS reform rationally.

“It ought to be all about outcomes and our health outcomes in this country, I’m afraid, do not compare with other countries…you can’t have a debate on it anymore. And it’s pathetic.”
— Iain Dale [17:02]

3. State Visits & The Power of Symbolism

[19:46 – 29:03]

• Tessa quizzes Iain on the first British state visits to America (King George VI, 1939) and reciprocation from US presidents (Woodrow Wilson, 1918).

• Exploration of historical, personal, and political dynamics of these visits:

  • The Queen Mother’s appeasement sympathies and their effect on American isolationism.
  • The enduring role of monarchy in fostering diplomatic ‘soft power’.
  • Memorable one-liners from previous state visits, e.g., Queen Elizabeth II’s congressional speech:

    “I do hope you can all see me today.”
    — Queen Elizabeth II (quoted by Tessa, 44:09)

• Discussion of upcoming King Charles III state visit and what it means for the special relationship, especially amidst current political turmoil.

4. History of Assassination Attempts

[29:03 – 37:41]

• Comparative overview: U.S. presidents vs. British royalty/prime ministers as targets.
• Iain details a chronology of American presidential assassination attempts:
  • From Andrew Jackson (1835) to Reagan (1981), with memorable asides (the famous “But apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?” [29:56]).
  • Motives range from personal grievances, lone “nutters,” anarchism, to political terrorism.
• British experience: Fewer direct attempts, with IRA actions and the unique separation between ceremonial monarchy and political leadership cited as possible reasons.
• Notable moment:

“If you are an American president, you have a one in four chance of somebody trying to kill you.”
— Iain Dale [36:10]

• Debate over ease of obtaining firearms in the US vs. UK, and the implications for public safety.

5. Reflections on American Society, Travel Tales, and the UK/US Divide

[38:18 – 45:52]

• Iain’s observations on visiting New York and Washington D.C.:
  • Noting decline (empty shops, urban decay) but also differences in infrastructure and vibe.
  • Cultural quirks: Americans’ disregard for personal space, noise, tourism density.
• Exchange about monarchy’s unique allure in America and King Charles’ expected reception.
• Tessa shares insights into Britain’s greater capacity for state banquets vs. the White House, prompting playful banter about Trump’s competitive nature and the ongoing importance of royal pageantry in diplomacy.

6. Listener Questions & Banter

[49:55 – end]

• Answers to listener mail: personal travel histories, historical pedantry (who “gave” whom independence), and the impact of language in public discourse.
• Tessa notes the challenge of remote podcasting and the dynamics of debate (vs. echo chambers in other pods):

“You can’t have a relaxed argument with someone down the line.”
— Tessa Dunlop [56:00]

• Final question: How do the hosts keep their spirits up amid global instability?
  Iain: Focuses on the limits of personal influence, refusing to be drawn into despair.
  Tessa: Critiques the negativity bias in media and the perverse incentives of the news cycle.

“We in the media are part of the problem in that we treat bad news as news and good news as advertising.”
— Iain Dale [58:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On historical parallels:
  “History has a habit of repeating itself, but never in quite the same way.”
  — Dr. Tessa Dunlop [paraphrased from overall tone]

• On health disparities:
  “If you’re a posh... high socioeconomic category, your health hasn’t deteriorated... But if you come from somewhere like Blackpool... your health is compromised from the age of 51.”
  — Tessa Dunlop [06:22]

• On political violence:
  “In a sense, anybody who tries to kill a politician has to have some sort of deep psychological problem, otherwise they wouldn’t do it.”
  — Iain Dale [31:07]

• Lighthearted: “I think I could describe you as the diaphanous Tessa Dunlop.”
  — Iain Dale [22:14]
  “You bloody couldn’t!”
  — Tessa Dunlop [22:19]

• On travel reunions:
  “When we parted, he said, ‘Well, let’s not leave it another 14 years.’... The thought went through my head, I might never see him again.”
  — Iain Dale [14:30]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Assassination attempt and reactions: 01:07 – 04:45
• Health disparities and personal loss: 05:39 – 19:10
• State visit history and symbolism: 19:46 – 29:03
• Assassination attempts: US vs. UK: 29:03 – 37:41
• Impressions from US travels: 38:18 – 45:52
• Monarchy in US diplomacy: 42:11 – 47:18
• Listener questions and reflections: 49:55 – End

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Tone & Style

The hosts expertly blend sharp analysis, anecdotal warmth, and irreverent humor. They are unguarded about emotion—shedding tears over lost friends, poking fun at each other, and reflecting on life’s fragility and privilege. This episode is a tapestry of historical insight, lived experience, and genuine curiosity about how the past shapes the present.

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For listeners seeking both depth and character, this episode is a poignant, witty, and revealing look at political violence, health inequalities, and the enduring (sometimes awkward) dance of UK-US relations, seen through history's persistent lens.

Transcript

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[Ian Dale]

This is a global player original podcast,

[Tessa Dunlop]

but the king is the the antidote to Trump. He's like a balm and I can't see. Maybe I'm naive, but who on earth would want to pop a shot at the old British king? For goodness sake.

[Ian Dale]

You're almost on the verge of trying to explain it. There is no explanation for it. It is just absolutely outrageous that anybody should want to kill another person in that way.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So it does speak to how available weaponry is some of this.

[Ian Dale]

But you and I both know that if you really want to get something, there will always be a way to do it. It's Monday morning. It's live from Washington D.C. it's Monday morning Live with Ian Dale and Tessa Dunlop.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, God, the Dale has landed stateside. Has the continent tremored?

[Ian Dale]

Well, yeah, it really has with the news events that have been going on. We were walking up the street into Times Square. My friend says to me, there's been a shooting. And I said, what? Who? He said, trump. So of course there was no other. He hadn't got any other details. He just sort of seen a headline on his phone. So we went back to the hotel, switched CNN on and of course, I mean, it wasn't an attack on Trump. I mean, it could easily have been, but it wasn't. And so of course I then get open my WhatsApp and messages from LBC. Can you come on immediately with James Hansen at some ungodly hour in the morning there? So I did that and it was, yeah, quite, quite an evening and, and It's.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You've seen all the conspiracy theories about

[Ian Dale]

it being rigged, doesn't it? I mean, please tell me you don't buy into any of that, because it is just so preposterous. I mean, the guy. I mean, obviously there are huge security questions to be answered following this. I mean, did they vet the people who were staying in that hotel that was in the Washington Hilton? I'm in the Capital Hilton, and I do know that hotel. That's where I've been to two CPAC events. It is a massive, massive hotel. So they could actually vet all the people that were staying there just as ordinary guests. I don't know. But the fact that he managed to assemble his weapons there in his room and then just ambled down and, I mean, it's. It's unthinkable, isn't it, really? And. And Trump. I mean, to be fair to Trump, he. I mean, he said some batshit crazy things about it, sort of like, this is why we needed a new ballroom. But he hasn't blamed the Secret Service for the fact that this happened, which he easily could have done, but he must, behind the scenes, be absolutely furious about it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, it's interesting, because it was the. Was it Correspondence Bureau or some big correspondence dinner? Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

And which I could have been because Corey. Corey said to me last Tuesday or Wednesday, he said, do you want to go to it? Because there was some other people, some of the British journalists going, and one of them, I think, had said to him. Unless I've imagined this had said to him, or does Ian want to go? But of course, I. The reason I was in New York was to see Chess that very evening. So I couldn't have gone down to Washington earlier, but. Oh, my God. Think, think. Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

All the good and the great were there, though. So the head of the FBI, was there. Anyone that Trump might want to blame or point a finger at was actually in the dinner. But my favorite memes and videos were the people who rushed in and stole all the wine. Like in their. They were literally. Yes. Grabbing bottles of wine.

[Ian Dale]

My favorite was the one journalist who didn't get under the table, who just carried on eating his meal. And I thought, well, that. I bet he was British. That would be a British thing to do, wouldn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Why waste a salad? Well, it must have been a big Saturday night for black tie events, because I never go to events like that, Ian. I avoid them like the plague. But I was asked if I would give away an award at a Mariposa International charity. And saying Goodbye charity. Which is to do with baby loss. And you know that I went through a sort of thicket of dead babies and miscarriages for five years. And so I know how impossible it is and how much help you need. So I said yes, I would. This was a while back and then I didn't tell you this. It's a side hustle. God bless her soul. She's now out of hospital, but my mum was in hospital in the middle of last week with pneumonia and I had the big remaining event. Yeah. So I kind of put a bit of a semi break.

[Ian Dale]

You. How could you keep that from me?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, do you know life goes at such speed. I was in firm radio contact with her. I kind of felt she went in, I think the day after we recorded the pod and by the time we were back in, I felt, you know, she was going to be okay. She was an Edinburgh Royal being very well looked after. She's now out. She's actually just celebrated yesterday her 84th birthday. So she's not part of the health crisis that we need to come to. There's a. Since you've left, apparently Britain has fallen to the second bottom out of 21 developed countries in the world for poor health. Guess which country sits at the bottom? We're number 20. Who's number 21?

[Ian Dale]

Is it a little country?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, it's a very big country.

[Ian Dale]

America.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes, America. We're one behind America and we know all about health equalities in America. So Mum is in the upper percentile because she actually was in reasonably good health till she was 70. It's. If you're a posh or a well off or whatever the word is, high socioeconomic category, your health hasn't det. Deteriorated and you're likely to not need many interventions at all by the age of 70. I. E. Ladies who lunch in Richmond. But if you come from somewhere like Blackpool and I'll just add in now Tunbridge Wells, then actually you find your health is compromised. From the age of 51, which is my age today. So I would be having lifelong health conditions, for example, from right now for the rest of my life if I was conforming to what's normal for a lot of Brits. For the lower socioeconomic categories, which are growing, that's just a cheery note to make you feel homesick. But it was actually I was going to take us back to baby loss, keeping all the cheerful elements up. And so I sort of. I sort of said, oh, I don't know if I can give away an award actually, because I didn't know about Mum's condition. And anyway, so they said, oh, we'll come anyway if you're okay. And so I went because Mum was out of hospital and everything was fine. My brother said, everything's in control. And I thought, well, I'll just pop in quickly for a couple of hours, you know, eat the main course and do some social media for them and then go home because I've got the big Romanian thing going on. And, and then they told me as I came in, oh, you're giving away an award. And I said, oh, gosh, am I? I thought I wasn't going to be doing that. And I was. The very last award of the night.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, no.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So obviously. So I did six hours at a black tie event.

[Ian Dale]

Oh my goodness.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hoisted by my own petard.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So there we are. But it's actually, it was a very moving event. But they are full on, aren't they, these, these big hotels and their big banqueting balls.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And Trump clearly is so annoyed, isn't he, that his banqueting room in the White House just isn't big enough for the king.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it's not big enough. It hasn't been built yet. That's the problem. I mean, I don't know how many people are being invited to the current one. But we'll, we'll come on to that in a minute. But let me tell you, because I know our listeners like my travel experiences. We, we got the plane from Heathrow, Terminal 5, all really, really smooth on a Friday morning. It was incredibly smooth. Took off on time. We were in row 36 of 40, so in slap back in economy because I was too mean to pay for anything else and it cost the flight.

[Tessa Dunlop]

How much was it for one ticket?

[Ian Dale]

Well, because I had to change my flight to make it two separate singles because I'm coming back from Washington. I think it was about 900, something like that. And the other, the return one was about 1500, so not cheap. Anyway, we get to JFK Airport in New York, go to through immigration, or at least one of us did. I sailed through, didn't even take fingerprints or anything. My friend got apprehended and. Yeah, why? Because I, I, because we were in sort of like adjacent booth things. So I, I was just waiting for him, sort of thinking, why is it taking so long? And I could see him talking to the guy and suddenly this red light went on and, and then this man, this Chinese looking man with a gun approached and he marched, he marched my friend off to immigrant and I said well can I come this. No, no sir, you go to baggage reclaim. I didn't have a bag to reclaim. So anyway, so I sat there and I got my phone charged a bit and the woman who let me use her phone charger, I said well how long do these things normally take you? Oh, it can be hours, sir. Oh God, here we go. Anyway, about 15 late 15 minutes later he comes in and it was all over a seven year old speeding ticket that he got when he was in America the last time. And apparently the address that he gave he'd only be, he moved out of about two months afterwards. But they didn't make any attempt to contact him by phone or anything. So he had this $192 speeding fine and so they said to him, well you need to pay it now sir. He said what if I don't? And they said well we'll arrest you and detain you. So he paid.

[Tessa Dunlop]

My goodness.

[Ian Dale]

So that was quite a dramatic start. Then we got a cat, a yellow cab into Manhattan which took about an hour and a half. Luckily it was a fixed flat of $70. But this driver was one of those kangaroo drivers, stop start, stop start, sort of jerky driver and my friend, should we say is not a good traveler and at one point said me, I'm going to be sick. I said you cannot be sick in, in this cab. Anyway, we got to the hotel and yeah and everything else passed very smoothly and the one more little thing and then I'll, then I'll shut up. The next day at 10 o' clock we met my best friend in America, Daniel Forrester, who is the nearest thing I've got to a brother. And he. We hadn't seen each other for 14 years and it was, it was one of those things I said to Dan, you should film this. It'll be like one of those Instagram real reunion things. And it really was. And so we, the three of us sat there watching West Ham Everton and then just sort of like I was really afraid that my other friend A would get on with him or would just be bored by the conversation because you know what it's like when two people haven't seen. I'm sure you're exactly the same, you haven't seen each other. So you reminisce on all the funny little anecdotes from your previous past and

[Tessa Dunlop]

it might be a good spree. The third person.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, and Daniel's a very sort of political history person. He'd be very good on this podcast actually. And my friend is not. Has no interest in any of it, but they just formed this really lovely bond and it was like almost a teacher, teacher people kind of thing. And afterwards my friend said, I learned so much from that guy. I said, you weren't bored? No, no, not at all. So it's actually an absolutely lovely day.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But can I just do a point of information that you've gone all the way to America, land of the free and the orange buffoons, and you sat there watching Everton versus Western.

[Ian Dale]

No. You're not a football fan. It's. It was such an important game because we had to win it to keep our fight against relev allegations. So I mean, ordinarily I probably wouldn't have bothered, but it was a very important point. And then.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, you are a philistine. I'm sorry I have to label you a philistine.

[Ian Dale]

No, no, you'll like this next bit. This is not philisthenic at all. Come on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's like a shaggy dog story, this.

[Ian Dale]

No, he. He then said, right, I'm going to take you somewhere. So we, we walked for about six blocks and went into this sort of very dowdy looking entrance. I said, what's this place? Anyway, it turned out to be the birthplace of Theodore Roosevelt and it's now a museum. So he spent about, well, I don't know, about an hour there and that they were. The reason he wanted us to go there was because they had the, you know, when Theodore Roosevelt was shot and then he carried on with the speech that he was giving. They had, well, we thought they had the, the, the copy of the speech that he had in his pocket that the bullet passed through. And I think he passed through a glasses case as well before it entered his body. And anyway, he knew that if, if there was, if you coughed up blood that meant your lung was damaged. Anyway, he coughed and there was no blood. So he thought, well, my lung isn't damaged, so I just carry on. And the bullet stayed there. I mean, nowadays the bullet would be removed, but he, the bullet stayed there for the rest of his life. So he went there and then finally we went to this place called Italy, which is this five store shop, all with all Italian foods and goods in it. And there's a restaurant. So we just sort of talked in the restaurant for a bit and then at the end we left because we had to go to the theater.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think you should host a travel podcast.

[Ian Dale]

Literally, I'm composing myself now because I don't want to break down. But when we parted, he said, Something, well, let's not leave it another 14 years. And I thought to myself, well, that that would make me 77. And the thought went. The thought. So I can't speak. The thought went through my head, I might never see him again.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, you might not. And my friend died at the weekend and people die and it's horrible and it reminds, it reminds me of, you know, talking lightly about health and, and things, but actually our life expectancy hasn't risen, our quality life has gone down. And when I was been so busy recently rushing around talking shite to you, it's called a podcast, and, and doing Romanian GCSEs and God knows what else. And I. And Mark, my friend who had leukemia from 2023, I. I wanted to get over to see him in Essex at Easter time and I didn't. And he died. He died at the weekend. And the bottom line is he died living. Absolutely. But. And I was one of his very few friends. He's pretty goddamn autistic. Weren't you, Mark? You bugger. How dare you die. I feel so angry that he's died and I didn't see him. So we're now both crying at the beginning of podcast, but I know this sounds ridiculous in but we are the. Well, I certainly was the last generation that went to university before we used email. So even to get on this podcast every day it feels hairy. Are my headphones going to work? Is my computer going to work? Is the Zoom going to work? And Mark was always there for me and he was tortured for three years to stop the cancer, which didn't. He just ended up being killed by the side effects, not the cancer. And the last time I saw him, we met after he'd had a hospital appointment a couple of months back and I was called to go into Piers Morgan and he came in with me in what looked like a fat suit, full stone of fluid retention from the drugs he was on and his bright white trainers and his weird one. I just loved him compared to all those shiny telly wankers. And there was Mark sitting in the green room and I've never felt such deep love for him. And I did look at him and I'm really vain. I realized this because I thought the way he was so distorted by his illness, and I thought, I don't think I could manage that. And. And I said, I think you're really brave. And he said, well, I just. What choice do I have? And I thought, yeah, but you're still really brave. Does that make sense? It is illness, ill Health. God, Ian, we're lucky. We're so. I know you still inject every day a vast expense, but we are so lucky, aren't we?

[Ian Dale]

Well, in some ways, but I mean, you said. And I'm, I'm really sorry because I know you, you texted me and I know how upset you've been over it and totally understandably and particularly when you weren' expecting it to happen. But it does bring, what you said about this health survey, it does bring into sharp focus the fact that we lionize the NHS and then you. But it ought to be all about outcomes and our health outcomes in this country, I'm afraid, do not compare with other countries. And this brings it into sharp focus, doesn't it? And yet any criticism that I utter of the NHS is automatically followed by, oh, so you want to privatize it then? And you can't have a debate on it anymore. And it's pathetic.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's actually about social inequalities. I was digging deep into why this is. And when they say poor health, it includes depression, anxiety, people falling off the grid, isolation, not getting seen for maybe a knee operation, then they can't work, then they get depressed, then they get anxious, then they get isolated, et cetera. And Mark was a really interesting point, actually. He died of cancer, so, you know, was coming from anyway, didn't have any bad habits, but he was really isolated until he joined a band and that his band members, little Thief members in Essex, changed his life. And actually we could all do more to engage, could we not? We could all do more to. Because once I got through to Mark, and actually it was me came and played the guitar one night here and I said, you're a genius. And then I said, why don't you join a band? And so it went from there. If we all just. You find the most incredible jewels of people, if you turn the stone over and spend some time and it's a kind of a time poverty. And one of the big things for me that I hate and it's part of my job, is social media. I think if I didn't wasn't posting on social media, I would actually have more time to engage with real people around me. And I think there is, there's a real imbalance in the world. Peter. I was going to call you Peter there. I don't know why, you look like a Peter to me. Peter. Peter. Ian. Anyway, we go to a break and crack on with the news of the day. Before we get to maudlin, I think

[Ian Dale]

we should

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[Tessa Dunlop]

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[Tessa Dunlop]

Ian, I've got a question for you. The first British state visit to America, when and who?

[Ian Dale]

1939.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes. How did you know?

[Ian Dale]

King George VI and the Queen Mother, who wasn't obviously the Queen Mother at the time, they were the first to go. But let me put one back to you. When was the first US presidential state visit to the United Kingdom?

[Tessa Dunlop]

December 1918.

[Ian Dale]

Correct.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It was Wilson and his wife Edith. And actually it was less successful in terms of harmonious relations between the two heads of state. So George V was really pissed off he had to give up shooting pheasants and sandringham and hang out with this clerical pompous bore called Wilson and his stupid bougie wife. And also they found Buckingham palace very cold. And where in comparison, actually Roosevelt got on very well, was rather charmed by Elizabeth the Queen Consort. They were less impressed by stumbly old George vi. He was a bit underwhelming, wasn't he? Let's just be honest about it.

[Ian Dale]

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have really understood his speech impediment either, which I think was still apparent at that time.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What's really interesting though, and I thought there was such interesting parallels, the Queen Mother, when she died, there was all these platitudes rolled out and nobody talked about her really ardent stance towards appeasement. She was a massive Chamberlain fan, couldn't bear Winston Churchill and really cut the Nazis way too much slack. Luckily, by the summer of 39, it was fairly obvious the direction of travel, but in many ways that appeasement and isolationism had meant that the American ambassador, of course they were keen at that time, America to stay out of the war, found actually a lot of what the Queen was saying rather acceptable because it fed this isolation.

[Ian Dale]

Was that Joe Kennedy at the time, or did he come a bit later?

[Tessa Dunlop]

It was. Well, he was, he came over in 38.

[Ian Dale]

Thoroughly reprehensible individual.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Again, the Queen Mother, because she looked diaphanous and wafted around smiling and waving in late old age.

[Ian Dale]

What she Looked what?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Diaphanous.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that's a new word that I've learned today, and I'm sure most of the listeners won't have heard it either. Oh, she. Oh, she's so excited.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It means sort of floaty, you know, like all those expensive materials she wore in late great old age.

[Ian Dale]

I think I could describe you as the diaphanous Tessa Dunlop.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You bloody couldn't.

[Ian Dale]

I nearly said Theresa Dunlop. Is that actually your real name? Theresa?

[Tessa Dunlop]

And I've got to say, if anyone's thinking of giving birth, apparently we've given up doing that recently. But if you are, please don't give your child a name that isn't the same name as she's later going to use in life, because it's cost me a fortune. I've even recently, because all the data laws have changed, I had to prove, in order to buy Mum's house or all that jazz, or help her out on it, I had to prove that Theresa and Tessa were the same person. And I had to pay a lawyer to do that.

[Ian Dale]

No.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes, I did. It was really annoying.

[Ian Dale]

That is one advantage of having a name like mine, which you literally cannot shorten. Although our head of security at. Or head of the building at Leicester Square, Royston, he does shorten it. He calls me E.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What's not even an E?

[Ian Dale]

It's an Ian, isn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Also, your name's annoying because predictive always wants to make it I A, N. And names that have two different ways of being spelled are annoying.

[Ian Dale]

It wants to make me either A appear common or B to Anglicize my name. But Ian is I. A I, N is the Scottish version.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I just say I'm desperate to get back to the state visit.

[Ian Dale]

Go on, then. You started it using a word I'd never heard of.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Okay, so diaphanous Queen. She needed two cabins. Obviously they chugged over in a ship or a. I don't know, a yacht or something. I can't remember. Via Canada. They came. Dropped down into America from Canada. They were doing a sort of circuitous tour, which included King, the Prime Minister of Shut. Don't laugh at the way I pronounce things.

[Ian Dale]

I think you mean circuitous.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's the one. You can imagine what my Romanian is going to be like tonight, can't you? It's absolutely horrific.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I'll have to imagine, because I won't be there, which I feel very guilty about.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Don't worry, there'll be another. I'm telling you now, this won't get it across the line. Anyway, back to Prime Minister King in Canada. So him and Roosevelt and George VI will get together and agree that they need to push Europe towards intervention in terms of what. What's happening in Germany. So they do get a kind of a note, an accordant note, an agreement, if you like, even if it's not overtly political, because obviously that's not the role of the monarch. And it was very much seen as helpful scene setting prior to Winston Churchill's flagrant, desperate sort of flirtation with America, until finally the Japanese decided to detonate Pearl Harbor. And I don't think these state visits are ever wasted. And a lot of people say, you sit on the left and why are you monarchist? But actually, if you look at Trump, and so there's three attempts on his life now, Ian, and I don't know if it was inappropriate to have said this last night, I was a bit tired and emotional, but they said, oh, would you think it's dangerous for the King or will it be helpful? And I said, the thing is, I don't think the King will be in danger. Trump is quite literally triggering. And we can include. Where does the word trigger come from? Three people have now attempted to kill him, but the King is the antidote to Trump. He's like a balm. And I can't see. Maybe I'm naive, but who on earth would want to pop a shot at the old British King, for goodness sake?

[Ian Dale]

Well, if that was proper logic, then the King doesn't need any security wherever he goes. I mean, it's for the birds. Of course there will be people who want to take a potshot at the King, certainly many in this. Many deranged people in this country. I'm sure there are, There are plans among various terror groups. I mean, the IRA obviously was the prime example of one that killed his uncle, but there are plenty of other terror groups that would want to, if

[Tessa Dunlop]

we agree some people are clearly more prone to being targeted for their political. That's, by the way, not to excuse targeting anybody ever, but some people are more prone, and Trump is one of those individuals by the very divisive nature

[Ian Dale]

of his politics, which he recognizes because he's. Well, you could say it's because. Partly because of the divisive nature of his politics, but also it's the case consequential politicians are always more targeted than inconsequential politicians, whether it's for a terror attack or just sort of very harsh criticism. And. But the trouble is, whenever you have this conversation, you sort of almost. You're almost on the verge of trying to explain it and there is no explanation for it. It is just absolutely outrageous that anybody should want to kill another person in that way.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I agree, but we are talking about America, the land of the gun.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. It's not just in America that you have these things.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Come on in.

[Ian Dale]

Is it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Before the pod, you said you looked up in your incredible erudite research tool chat, gdp, how many assassination attempts.

[Ian Dale]

Don't give away my secrets. Yeah. Should we go through them? Because I have them here.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And by the way, hold in your head, at the same time, how many assassination attempts on British Prime Minister? And that's not even comparable.

[Ian Dale]

Well, actually, you know, I mean there aren't that many. There's only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. There's 13 different occasions in history where you see, I thought, I never said this at the time, but I thought that Barack Obama would be a president that would have lots of assassination attempts. Now he faced many threats but no actual attempts. Attempts. And I thought that was actually sort of a great thing that he, he didn't, there were no attempts on his life. But do you know, can you think of who the first one, first American president to have survived an assassination attempt?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Funnily enough, when you. I don't know which end we're going from, but I know in the same hotel Reagan was in the Hilton.

[Ian Dale]

That's, that's much. You're stealing my thunder. Well, no, he, he didn't survive. Andrew Jackson was the first who was the Trump of his day. I mean he, he was president in the 1830s and he was attacked by a guy called Richard Lawrence. But he survived because purely on the basis that both of Lawrence's pistols misfired. So that, that was the first. So they'd been presidents for nearly 50 years at that point and he was the first one to have had an assassination attempt.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And then here, just to interrupt you, at the similar time, Queen Victoria, you know, seven people attempted to kill her. But again that was, a lot of people thought that was about after the Napoleonic wars, you know, and us fighting. There was a lot of people with firearms. Most of them weren't very good, didn't work very well and therefore failed to hit their rather large, certainly quite plump target. So it does speak to how available weaponry is some of this.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, and I think what a lot. Several of those attempts were made by so called Fenians, weren't they? People who wanted Irish independence or home rule. Right. Moving forward, you go to Abraham Lincoln, he was shot by John Wilkes Booth at the ford Theater in 1865, which prompted the famous quote, well, apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how do you, how did you enjoy the play? Which I do think is one of the great quotes of all time. I can't remember who said it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It.

[Ian Dale]

And then only 16 years after that, James A. Garfield, a president who I had never heard of before I did the book a few years ago. He was shot by a man called Charles J. Gitto. And he didn't die on the scene. He died much later, in fact, I think I'm right in saying several months later from complications, as they put it. And then you had 20 years after that, William McKinley. He was shot in Buffalo, New York, by Leon. I can't pronounce.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What year is that?

[Ian Dale]

1901. So he, he was the.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Why, what, what inspired that, for example?

[Ian Dale]

I can't remember.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It doesn't, it doesn't say, look at these lone nutters. You know, what's the motivation behind the attacks? Because what's interesting is you cited. You're right, there was some Irish, a couple of the attempts on Victoria. Some of them were kind of lone nutters. Others were inspired by the, the Irish separation issue. But the attack, for example, on Margaret Thatcher in 1984, that feeds into that same issue, but in the form of the ira. So what are the motivating factors behind the assassination attempts against American presidents?

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think they, they obviously vary. Each. Each one is very different. I mean, I think some of them are from people and this is just from memory when I did the president's book, some of them were from people who were just like mentally deranged. And I mean, in a sense, anybody who tries to kill a politician has to have some sort of deep psychological problem, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Let me just find out about McKinley. I mean, he was an interesting one because I've got this book coming out later in the year on American presidential campaigns. And I've got Carl Rove, Bush's former strategist. He's written the chapter on McKinley's election because he is apparently the one world Expert on President McKinley. So hang on. Right, let's see. So why was President McKinley. McKinley's assassin, Leon Kajols, was an anarchist. Anarchists at the time believed that governments were oppressive and should be abolished sometimes through violence. He saw McKinley as a symbol of that oppression. So.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I mean, same thing. You, you've seen similar sort of motivations writ large across most of the free world. When there's a gunman taking out somebody in a position of power or even if it's just a sort of horrible massacre like the one in Norway. Do you remember a few years ago

[Ian Dale]

it was a similar motivation cited now also Theodore Roosevelt. Now I don't think this was when he was in office, but he was shot by John Shrank doing a campaign speech in 1912 and he survived and continued speaking. And I've already explained sort of how that happened. Earlier on fdr, he was shot at by Giuseppe Zangara in Chicago. He was unharmed. But the mayor, Anton Samak was killed. Harry Truman. In 1952, Puerto Rican nationalists attempted to storm Blair House where Truman was staying.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm going to interrupt you here, Ian, just. I do think there is something as well. Yeah, I do, because I think it's important to, to try and unpack some of these. Otherwise they just rumble past as names with a kind of a number on their head. There is something about your symbolic head of state also being invested with political power that makes him or her more vulnerable. By separating our symbol of power, our, you know, symbolic head, the King with his crown and his scepter and his, you know, political views we're not really meant to know about except for him being a green bean versus the political clout of a Boris Johnson or a Keir Starmer. When you have both funneled into one individual, that really enhances, does it not, their potential vulnerability.

[Ian Dale]

What about vulnerability? I think it enhances their attraction for a would be assassin. Yes, I mean it's. I can't. Were there any attempts on the Queen during her reign? I don't. There's one. There was one kidnapping.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Charles wasn't there.

[Ian Dale]

There's a kidnapping of Princess Anne, wasn't there. But that, that's, that's about it then of course it moves.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Sorry, there was, wasn't there? Do you not remember she was riding Bermuda in the Trooping of the color in 1981 and someone fired blank shots and she stayed on her horse and continued.

[Ian Dale]

That wasn't an attempt on her life though, was it? It.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, and King when he was Prince. I think Charles came under gunfire, didn't he, in Australia. But I'm shooting from the hip now. Let's just stick with your presidents and then roll on to more love of America for the royal family.

[Ian Dale]

Right, well, obviously JFK, 1963 shot in Dallas and then Gerald Ford, which people don't remember this, but he, he had two attempts on his life in one month by a woman, Lynette from. And. And then another woman Sarah Jane Moore. That's unusual, isn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. Why was that? Did you, did you look into why he was particularly susceptible?

[Ian Dale]

No idea.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's fascinating. I do think it's such a risky job. I mean, Trump, to be fair, he does speak a lot of shite, but he did point out just how risky his job was last night. I'm like, yeah, fair play, mate.

[Ian Dale]

And then Reagan in 1981, shot by John Hinkley. I remember that. I mean, that, that was a ma. A massive thing. And Reagan did nearly die in that. And that didn't really emerge for some time afterwards.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And extraordinary, Ian, is it's the same venue.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, no, it was the same venue and he was, he was on the operating table and said to the surgeons, well, I hope you're all registered Republicans, which, I mean, when you're in that situation, to come out with a line like that, that's quite good. And then finally, George w. Bush in 2005, in, in, he was in Tbilisi in Georgia and a grenade was thrown but failed to detonate. So I mean that essentially, if you are an American president, you have a one in four chance of somebody trying to kill you. I mean, that's quite, quite something, isn't is?

[Tessa Dunlop]

And what's fascinating is, particularly if you're a Republican president, you generally are very anti gun reform. I, I find it quite extraordinary that the likes of Trump is actually vulnerable precisely because of his own politics. Just look at the gun ownership in America. Look at the way you can wander around a hotel with a gun, the number of guns that then came out.

[Ian Dale]

Well, to be fair, Tessa, take down

[Tessa Dunlop]

of the industry, you could do that

[Ian Dale]

at the Hilton in Park Lane in London, if you brought all the components, you could, you could put it together in your hotel room and, and do it there. It's not just in America in any way. If you've got the components you've got, you can do it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's not true. Ever since Dunblane, actually owning a handgun even, has become really challenging. And that's 1996. It's very different now, actually.

[Ian Dale]

It is. It is difficult to buy a gun legally. You're absolutely right. But if you want, if you want to get a gun and you can get it on the black market somehow, you can go into a hotel and compile it in your hotel room.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But that's the point, isn't it? That is getting the gun in the first place, that's the chance.

[Ian Dale]

Absolutely, absolutely. But you and I both know that if you really want to get something There will always be a way to do it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I would argue that the ease with which you can obtain a gun or somebody near you might have a gun, mummy or daddy has one for self protection means that vulnerable individuals are much statistically we know this, Ian are much more likely to have access to guns in America. Will we take a break before I shoot you?

[Ian Dale]

I think we probably should, yes. If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Ian?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, you can start.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Who said yes? This is section three of a remote podcast, Ian out of Harm's way in America, the land of the free. When do you go to Washington, Ian?

[Ian Dale]

I'm here.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, so you traveled yesterday.

[Ian Dale]

I traveled down by train yesterday, which was quite an experience actually, because I've never been on an American train before. Took three and a half hours from Penn Station in New York to union station in D.C. which used to be my favorite place in America. I just love. They had. It's a really grand building, not like sort of British railway station. It's very different. It's lots of stone and marble and it's very shiny. And in the main hallway they had this central cafe, which sort of two story thing, which I used to spend hours just sort of watching the world go by and it's not there anymore. And honestly, I wandered around Union Station yesterday, sort of wanted to revisit all the shops that I used to go into. None of them are there. Half the shops are empty. There was very few people there. It was so sad to see how that place has deteriorated. But it, it was the train though. I mean, it's like you're sitting in first class. I was in coach, but you. It's. The seats are like you're sitting in first class. In Britain that it would be a luxury train, but it only goes about 30 or 40 miles an hour. The whole time you get a feeling

[Tessa Dunlop]

that it's a country in crisis. Do you get the vibe? I know it's very hard to say you've just stepped off the airplane. You're going around to theaters and unrepresentative sort of venues and hotels, but is there a Changed vibe.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I've only been in Washington since yesterday afternoon, so it's probably too early to say for here. New York City, which I had been to a couple of times before, but only for brief visits I didn't like at all. I really didn't. It's dirty, it's. There's no architecture to speak of. And I suppose you, if you look up, you see the architecture, they just honk their horns all the time for no apparent reason.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've always done that. But I sort of needed something more insidious.

[Ian Dale]

Well, no, I mean, I can't, I can't say from this visit I could judge it in that way, but anyone that thinks that London is not a great city than New York. I mean it seriously is. I didn't feel unsafe at all. Although my friend going back to the hotel, going back to JFK yesterday, got the wrong train and ended up in the Bronx. And somebody approached him on the train platform and he found out a train, train, the train that he needed to get and said, sir, I put your phone away if I were you. So it's not just London where, where there's phone theft. But I mean, I have to say, look, in the middle of Manhattan, you don't feel unsafe. I mean Times Square, which is I suppose one of the biggest tourist attractions with all its sort of Piccadilly Circus style screens. I mean it is just so garish and gaudy and Americans have no, no idea of, of sort of their own space and that you are all. It's almost as if you're walking down the street and you're invisible to people. They just bump into you for no apparent reason because they don't really give a.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Even you towering above them at 6 foot 100.

[Ian Dale]

Indeed. In my green loading.

[Tessa Dunlop]

How dare they, Ian? In their own country, no less.

[Ian Dale]

Mind you, they could all, they could have all been tourists. I suppose. So I, I won't, I won't be rushing back to New York York, but Washington from. I mean in the taxi journey I took from Union Station to my hotel, I would look the same Washington as it ever did. But the last time I came back here, most of the places that I used to hang out at were not there anymore. So from that point of view, I think it, it's a city that has its challenge. Well, it's always had its challenges. To be fair,

[Tessa Dunlop]

it does. I want to now, if you don't mind, take us back to a couple more state visits. Charles has a big day tomorrow, straight after his jet lag inducing Flight. He's going to be addressing a joint audience in Congress. Previously, first time this privilege was accorded to a monarch. As a Channel 5 talking head expert in royalty, I expect you to be able to tell me, hook, line and sinker, who it was, when it was and what she said.

[Ian Dale]

It was Queen Elizabeth II in 1991. And I seem to remember that she had a bit of a challenge because the microphones were set too high. Was it? Was it, Was that it? Was that the occasion?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, almost. Right. The day before, in purple, she'd stood up on the podium. She was being hosted by George the first Bush. Is it George W Bush? Which is the first Bush? Anyway, it was just George H.W.

[Ian Dale]

bush.

[Tessa Dunlop]

George H.W. bush. That's it. Just after the first Gulf War, she gives a little speech and she is obliterated by the podium. This is the day before she addresses Congress. So the next day, in she goes. First British monarch to be accorded.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, that's right, yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. Two houses. This time. She's in tangerine, a pale tangerine. She did wear a pastel. Well, did she not? And the. The extraordinary. I put it on my Instagram, actually, because I was so struck by this welcome. And of course, it was the 102nd Congress. Do you remember? They were gridlocked. Everything was going wrong. I mean, compared to today, it was nothing. It was a walk in the park. But it was a particularly aggressive time in American politics. In came this lady. It was like the parting of the waves. All these men putty in her hands. Douglas Hurd, would he have been the Foreign Secretary at the time? He literally sat back and looked like he was the cat that had the cream. This was his queen. All these supplicant Americans. And what does she say? She goes up to the podium and she delivers her most famous one liner of all times.

[Ian Dale]

Can't remember what that was.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I do hope you can all see me today.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. Because I think it was in the Rose Garden at the White House where she made the speech the previous day. Nobody could. They saw the top of her hat and that was about it. That was classic.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So funny. And then they're so desperate to be pleased and to please. They all give her a standing ovation just for that one line. And what's interesting, actually, about the subsequent speech, because I got totally hooked into watching it on YouTube yesterday, is she literally. Lion Sinker delivers a version of consensus politics. How Britain and America, America stronger together, standing up to, you know, standing up for NATO. What we can learn from history, of course, at that time, Eastern Europe was changing. It was just post the collapse of the ussr, it was everything that Trump isn't the message. But I did think, my goodness, for Britain to have been given that platform simply because we had a monarch, what a privilege. How lucky we are to be able to do that.

[Ian Dale]

No, absolutely. And in a sense, I mean, I don't, I can't remember when this state visit was first mooted. It was what it must have been a good few months ago now. I mean, it is an honor for any head of state to get that. Some people listening will never say, oh, well, it can't be that good because Benjamin Netanyahu gave an address to the joint session of Congress not that long ago. Well, it really, it really is. And I, I genuinely hope that the state visit can be used to try and put the relationship between the two countries back on track. I think that's probably asking a bit too much. But that, let's face it, that is the whole point of it. I mean, let's not beat around the bush. That is King Charles's aim in this visit.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I think it's worth bearing in mind the affection the Americans have for monarchy. A lot of their original sort of first generation Americans came from European monarchies, so they understand and it's sort of baked into their DNA, this kind of inbuilt reverence of the transcendent glamour, hereditary monarchy that they don't have in their own country. And that I think leaves them predisposed to feel warm towards our monarch. It's, it's just the way in which Trump, even though we know he's, he loves monarchy, he's also weirdly competitive. Like, I heard a clip, and I alluded to this at the beginning where he was like, if only like, we had our big ballroom built by now. He's demolished his east wing. He doesn't have his venue. So earlier you said you didn't know how many the White House estate dining room in sitting seats. Guess how many it seats and then have a guess at how many we seat in St George's hall, for example, at Windsor Castle or in Buckingham Palace.

[Ian Dale]

I don't know how much the White House seats. Probably around 250.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, much fewer. 140. Isn't that interesting? I would have thought it was far greater.

[Ian Dale]

No wonder Trump wants a bigger one.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, our state banquets only hold, for example, about 170. But you so know that Trump is fully aware of the fact that our state quits have a greater capacity than his. And I've just really loved that fact for the last 24 hours. I'm so glad I've been able to share it.

[Ian Dale]

We're gonna be bigger, we're gonna be better. Oh, my God. That's the best Trump impression I've ever done.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Ian, you've already come into your own in America. How I miss you. I can't control you as well down the line. I'm now worried that Elliot won't have edited the inappropriate thing I said, the gun wielding comment I made earlier, before the last break.

[Ian Dale]

So I was a professional and I'm sure he will have done.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Cut it.

[Ian Dale]

So. So he's arriving, we're recording this very early in, well, sort. Nine o' clock in the morning, my time, two o', clock your time. And tonight he arrives. It's going to be, I think, the garden part. It's the garden party tonight.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. Gentle garden party. Yeah, yeah.

[Ian Dale]

And then, so the, the big events. The big events are really tomorrow, the, the joint session of Congress and then the State dinner. Dinner. We've already talked about how the Charles might handle things at the State Dinner if, if Trump goes off script a little and then he's going to spend a day in New York and then go back down to Virginia and on Thursday he'll be. They'll meet the Trumps again, I think, for a fond farewell, by which time I will be back in London because I'm coming back on, in fact, as soon as the program finishes on Tuesday, heading up to Dulles Airport Court. So I'll be back on Wednesday lunchtime. We're going to record a day early, aren't we?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do we have to endure another travel log? Ian's Tales. You're like the Alistair Cook of lbc.

[Ian Dale]

A letter from America with you. Now there's a thought. That could be a good retirement job, couldn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Strap in, guys.

[Ian Dale]

And, and one of my colleagues at LBC said, now, you will be doing Wednesday's program, won't you? And I thought, well, of course I will, but. But, I mean, I don't normally get jet lag, but at my advanced age, who knows?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Frankly, Ian, if the King can do it, you can do it. Especially with all that help you get from the nhs.

[Ian Dale]

All right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's the least you can do public service. Now I think we should go for a break and questions.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, let's do that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

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[Ian Dale]

Right, I'm going to start with. Well, it's not really a question, but it's got a bit of history to it. It was actually from my Sunday newsletter rather than the pod, but the Jill is a listener from Crosby in Liverpool. She says, hope you arrive in Washington safe and sound later on. I was a nanny there in 1974. Well, they lived in Carder Rock Springs. Never heard of it. I was with a fabulous family who really only wanted someone to be there for when the kids came home from school while mum finished the degree she started before she had had kids. The dad was Senator Adlai Stevenson's legal bod. So imagine my. Well, then she puts an emoji, but I'm not quite sure what the emoji means. Well, imagine my surprise, I think, when he came home with the Watergate transcripts before they were published to the public. Think, oh, think an OMG deserved. Here. I can still see him in the kitchen flicking through them. I came home after six months as I was homesick. No surprise there then. I've continued to Google do to not go far from home for more than a few days at a time. And I'm 71 now from March to September. I do go away every month for the. For a few days. Just landed on Lindisfarne and Holy island for my second visit in two months. Love it here. Take care. Love from Jill. Love your POD with Tessa. I think she's as mad as me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, well, I think Ian induces that from us, to be honest. There's something when I listen back.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, so it's my fault sometimes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, it is your fault. Sometimes I don't listen because it makes me cringe a bit. Hearing yourself back is just totally cringe. But I did listen back and I thought, my God, I'm like that kind of schoolgirl trying to get. Trying to, like, control her uncle. See, I still have this much bigger age gap in my head, okay, between the two of us. Maybe it's your status in society, you know, maybe it's your height or your masculine presence. But I do sound like this pushy little schoolgirl next to avuncular Ian, spouting as usual. Anyway, that was my one person that

[Ian Dale]

spouts on this podcast and it's not me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, you with your Chad. GDP homework, my friend. Okay, feel free to cut that, by the way. Elliot. No, don't cut it. Right, moving to a question. This is railing at you. Hello, Ian. Oh, no. So, just listening to episode 118. Hello, Ian. He said there were no issues with Andrew having sex with someone aged 26. It's not just about age, though. Freedom of choice. Consent must be given voluntarily without coercion, threats or pressure. If someone agrees because they're scared of manipulating legal consent.

[Ian Dale]

Of course, I've no idea what this person is referring to.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Just thought I'd throw it in a nice anti Ian question. I'll move on to another one. Hello. Still enjoying the squabbling? Keep it up, Ian. Today you were talking about the independence of former colonies and you said we. Brackets. The UK gave them brackets. The colonies, independence. As if this was some kind of benevolent act. Independence was. Was not the UK status. I think it's important, Ian. Words matter, don't they? Remember, I got told off for using the word biddy. So take it on the chin.

[Ian Dale]

I think it's a bit different using the word biddy and saying gave someone independence because the fact is we did.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And then she. Oh, and she actually says, this is from inner. She goes, language matters. It's like I knew what she was about to say and I love her even more for this next bit. Also, please stop typing when Tessa is talking. Makes me tut over my porridge otherwise. Love you lots. Yes, that was a bit of a shit sandwich. We love inner. More, please. Inner. But then my favorite one is from a lovely woman called Liz because I did a post about baby loss on Saturday because I was going to the big Mariposa Ball and she got in contact about how sad she is because her daughter had a miscarriage and she was so looking a late miscarriage. It sounded really horrid and she was so looking forward to being a granny again. And then she sent another follow up text in which she says, I promise I'm not going to stalk you, but thank you for your words because I said I was sorry. On a different note, we just adore listening to your podcast with Ian in the car. It's just so funny. We are laughing so much as we sat at traffic lights in the car. We were laughing so much as we sat at traffic lights. The car next to us wound his window down and asked us what was so funny. Funny as we were in stitches. We told him to listen and he put his thumbs up.

[Ian Dale]

Liz kiss Extra listener.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Marvellous I hope he hasn't listened to this one. I don't think it's the best.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, I don't know. I think we've done all right given that we're not in the same room. Right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

This is harder, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's like having tantric sex.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I wouldn't know. I've never had that. Is it harder? Because you see Jackie and I used to do for most of the podcast, for most of all the many we work but in different places and it, I think because we did it every week, it, it, it wasn't hard and in fact we found it quite challenging initially when we did it in the studio together because we, I, I found that I couldn't do that as much smart when she was actually sitting opposite me. That soon changed though.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I find it harder my. From the questions I realized my usp, for better or for worse is pushing back that and it's definitely harder to do that remotely. Which is why some of the more you know, professional podcasts, dare I say Alistair and and Rory do that really annoying. Over to you.

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[Tessa Dunlop]

you at the end. Like they're sort of on walkie talkies and it sounds really unnatural and you can't have a relaxed argument with someone down the line.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. I mean Rory is particularly good at doing that because. And it always sounds as if, well, I've given the public the benefit of my super intelligence. Now let's hear from Alistair. It doesn't really work, does it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

We're talking about it, so maybe it does. Oh, I forgot to say I've been invited on another pod. The troll. Two left wing women, Gemma Forte and Marina Hyde I'm going to say not Marina Hyde. Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

Because they only talk to people from the same political gene pool as them. They, they never ever want to be challenged on any anything.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I am going to go and spread the bipolar love from our pod. All right.

[Ian Dale]

I mean Gemma Forte I really like. I used to do Jeremy vine with her quite a lot. So we got on very well. And Marina Perkus, I mean, she's made. She. She's actually one of the first people, I think, to really make a reputation through her online presence. I mean, she was sort of an influencer before the term was was coined.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They're both impressive women.

[Ian Dale]

Come on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They're impressive.

[Ian Dale]

I'm not saying they're not, but. What? I don't like podcasts where they just agree with each other all the time, and that's what those two do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But I'll go in and be Monarchist R Us. I'll look literally right wing compared to those two. So I'll go and trigger them.

[Ian Dale]

It wouldn't be difficult.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, final question. If you don't have one, I do.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, go on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Question for the pod. Ian and Dr. Dunlop, please. With all the instability and doom and gloom going on in the world right now, what do you both do to try and lift your spirits? That's from Rich on the Instagram.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I don't think of it in that way. I don't get depressed by world events generally. I, I do find myself thinking that, that this is probably the most sort of unstable time in, in my lifetime, but there's nothing I can do to influence it. So what, what, what do you do if you want to sort of turn, put yourself in a slough of despondent depression? Well, go ahead, but I mean, look, life, life goes on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

For most people, I think one of the problems is. And where we are privileged, Ian is. And I think this is also one of the dangers of the news cycle. The darker the news is actually the harder and faster we feed off it. And so in some ways, those who are looking at current events and commentating on them profit from the negative. And I do think that's one of the reasons why often the news cycle is so negative. Yeah, we're the problem.

[Ian Dale]

Well, we, we in the media are part of the problem in that we treat bad news as news and good news as advertising. We don't talk about good news at all. Did you know, for example, that Britain has now, did we talk about this the other day? That Britain's now overtaken India to become the fifth world, fifth largest economy in the world? I didn't know that because nobody had reported on it. But if there's ever any bit of bad news about GDP or whatever, we pounce on it, don't we?

[Tessa Dunlop]

We do. I'm going to have to leave now because I've got a very important Westminster event to get a Romanian GCC you do. I've just heard another Labour MP has confirmed his attendance. Mark Seward. I think I've got about 12 MPs, including Conservatives. Your friend Tonya is going to come and see me before the event. As I quickly buttered in unprofessionally at the beginning of the pod every time. It's like finding a cow on a beach. Every time a politician has said they're to attend. I literally feel like I've put a piece in a jigsaw puzzle. It's such a cheap thrill. I love our constituency politics at the moment. It'll probably change next week. Let's see how it goes.

[Ian Dale]

Can I respectfully suggest that you don't go around kissing all of them?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Thanks awfully for that, Ian. You're just, you know, so supportive and you always come up with really intelligent comments. All right, so right off, I'm gonna kiss all of them. All right.

[Ian Dale]

Seriously, I hope it's a brilliant event. I hope you actually managed to enj. And I hope it's really the thing that kicks Kickstarter camp. It's already in existence, but really takes it to a different level. So best of luck and let me know how it goes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm quite nervous, actually. There's a lot of adrenaline flowing. Sorry if I butted in on you a bit today. Sorry if I wasn't perfect on Wednesday. We're recording. We're going to do quite a lot on Scotland, which has interesting statistics coming out of Scotland. Half the number of polls are being done there than in the rest of the country. There's no money in the media there and there's no interrogation. Why aren't the SNP being interrogated like Keir Starmer? Let's come to that. And your little Welsh sojourn.

[Ian Dale]

That's a very, very good point. And the next episode will go out a day early because we need our figures boosted this month. So we're recording on Wednesday and it'll go out early Thursday morning.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is that because April is one day short? Ian gets very upset.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. I mean, it's very serendipitous that we are doing it a day early so the figures can go into April. So it might be our best of a month. Who knows? Right, get off with you. Bye. Bye.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Go and enjoy the King. Flirt with the King.

[Ian Dale]

And those of you who are getting the podcast on Tuesday, do listen to my live show from Washington D.C. from 7pm UK time, 2pm Eastern. Tata.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hi.

[Ian Dale]

This has been a Global Player, original production.