120. I Just Can't Wait To (Meet The) King

Summary

Where Politics Meets History

Episode 120: “I Just Can't Wait To (Meet The) King”
Date: April 30, 2026
Host: Iain Dale (broadcaster)
Co-Host: Dr. Tessa Dunlop (historian)

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Episode Overview

This episode, recorded shortly after Iain’s whirlwind trip to Washington, D.C., takes a deep dive into the recent state visit by King Charles to the United States. Iain and Tessa dissect the historical echoes in the week’s biggest headlines, with a focus on monarchy, populism, the state of UK-US relations, and the state of media and politics in Britain and Scotland. The duo blend humor and sharp debate as they explore how history shapes today’s news, sometimes clashing on the significance—and framing—of recent events.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The King’s US Visit: Celebrity, Symbolism, and Political Parallels

• Royalty and Populism in America

  • Tessa argues that the concept of celebrity culture, rooted in America, is now partly upheld by the British royal family (00:44). She highlights how the monarchy’s glamour resonates across the Atlantic, influencing the American public’s perception of Britain.
    • “That idea of the celebrity culture which took root and began in America has been partly held up by our royal family.” – Tessa (00:44)
  • Iain is skeptical, suggesting most Americans—especially within the MAGA movement—are inward-looking and indifferent to such state visits (00:35, 07:44).

• Trump, Alpha Male Politics, and Monarchy

  • Tessa humorously claims Trump found more comfort standing alongside King Charles (“our little medieval-esque king”) than the late Queen, interpreting Trump’s stance as craving to be the dominant figure in any room (01:54).
    • “Trump wants to be the most important person in the room and alongside our late queen, he simply wasn’t.” – Tessa (01:54)

• Viral Moments: “Two Kings” Social Media Post

  • The hosts discuss a White House tweet showing King Charles and Trump, captioned with a crown emoji, and debate its intent—Tessa describing it as “playful bromance” (02:32).
    • “I think there are those… concerned that is Trump going to be hanging around until death us do part? I believe this was much more a kind of bromance…” – Tessa (02:56)

Populism: UK vs US

• Economic Roots or Something More?

  • Tessa points out that, in Britain, populism can be directly linked to prolonged economic stagnation, unlike in the US where growth has boomed since 2008 (04:56).
  • Iain counters that US populism is about anti-elitism, with Trump presenting himself as a revolutionary outsider—despite his elite status—while Farage’s supposed anti-establishment persona in the UK is less authentic (06:17).
    • “The political phenomenon which you're describing as populism in this country is not the same as in America. It's almost two different things.” – Iain (06:17)

• Farage, Trump, and Changing Alliances

  • They note Farage’s decreasing public enthusiasm for Trump, reflecting shifting political winds (07:02).

Tessa’s Campaign for Romanian GCSEs: Power, Integration, and Britishness

• Grassroots Political Mobilization
  • Tessa shares a passionate account of her Westminster event advocating for a Romanian GCSE, highlighting stories from second-generation British-Romanian pupils (09:47–14:15). She underscores the significance of language education in integration and representation.
    • “The fact I had to come down here to London to tell you that we need the GCSE, she says it's messed up in it.” – Larissa, 15-year-old attendee, as recounted by Tessa (13:20)
  • Iain notes the need for parliamentary champions to move such campaigns forward (14:30).
    • “That's what you need to do in any campaign. You need to have three or four MPs who you can just pick up the phone to and say, look, can you do this, can you do that…” – Iain (14:30)

Broadcasting in Washington: Challenges and Guests

• Live News Complexity

  • Iain recounts technical and logistical headaches of broadcasting from the US, including debates with controversial Trump supporters (16:14–17:56).

• Clash with Pastor Mark Burns

  • Iain describes an on-air confrontation with Trump’s spiritual advisor concerning claims about the UK’s “dangerous path” and Christian identity, rebutting by citing the King’s overt reference to Christianity (17:35–18:37).
    • “The King has just made a speech in which he spent two or three minutes talking about his own Christian faith and the fact that Britain is a Christian nation. So don't give me that.” – Iain (18:30)

Monarchy’s International Role and King Charles’s Speech

• Special Relationship and Monarchy as a Diplomatic Tool

  • The hosts debate whether the monarchy was key to the US giving such a platform to Britain (21:50–22:38). Tessa insists only the monarchy allows such access during periods of weaker British leadership.
    • “Our country is accorded a platform… because of our shared history and the way in which monarchy speaks to more than just Britain.” – Tessa (22:38)
  • Iain points out past UK prime ministers have addressed Congress without monarchical intervention.

• Analysis of the Royal Speech

  • Both agree the King’s speech was impressive in content, if not fully in delivery, with notable self-deprecating humor referencing 250 years “just the other day” (28:07).

• Controversy Over “Anglo Saxon Courage”

  • Debate erupts over Trump’s reference to shared Anglo-Saxon ancestry and courage, with Tessa worried about racial overtones and Iain dismissing concerns as over-interpretation (24:01–25:07).
    • “Any generalization based on race and suggestion almost of a superiority of that race… was a huge amount.” – Tessa (23:26)
    • “We're in 2026 now. Nobody who describes themselves as Anglo Saxon… is going to say that we're superior to other races.” – Iain (25:02)

Scottish & Welsh Politics: Media, Elections, and Devolution

• Upcoming Elections and Media Decline

  • Iain previews chairing a six-way Welsh leaders’ debate, lamenting lack of public recognition for political figures (31:41–32:13).
  • Tessa details the demise of the Scottish press and its consequences for democracy and scrutiny of power, including less investment in polling and investigative journalism (33:03–38:43).
    • “The way in which the political landscape and its interrogation by the media has changed since devolution… has been, I think, devastating for Scottish democracy.” – Tessa (35:35)

• SNP Accountability and Media Relations

  • Iain accuses Scottish media of being “craven” to the SNP, sharing frustration at failed attempts to organize an all-party Scottish debate due to SNP non-cooperation (38:56–44:14).

• Devolution’s Unintended Consequences

  • Both agree that devolution has empowered nationalist movements, with Tessa declaring it Blair’s great tragedy and Iain noting UK media’s limited coverage of Scottish, Welsh, and especially Northern Irish affairs (41:25–42:47).
    • “Devolution was supposed to basically scupper the Nationalists and it's done the exact opposite.” – Iain (42:12)

• Personal Note: Political Engagement

  • Tessa reveals her brother is standing as a Lib Dem candidate, musing on family political involvement (33:09).

Antisemitism, Security & Freedom of Speech in Britain

• Attacks on Jewish Communities

  • The hosts react in real time to news of an attack in Golders Green, debating the effectiveness and risks of expelling ambassadors versus maintaining diplomatic dialogue (47:09–48:50).

• Policing and Protection

  • Both discuss the struggles of keeping Jewish communities safe, with Iain criticizing police for only boosting presence after attacks occur and Tessa referencing the need for deeper societal dialogue and resisting community fragmentation (50:12–51:10).
    • “Visible policing… would send a signal to those who wish harm on Jews.” – Iain (50:12)

• Media Interviews and US-UK Freedom of Expression

  • Tessa references a notable BBC interview with Tucker Carlson critiquing Britain's handling of free speech and antisemitism (52:16–53:43).
  • Iain concedes the UK’s hate speech laws sometimes stifle legitimate freedom of expression compared to the US (54:39).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Trump wants to be the most important person in the room and alongside our late queen, he simply wasn’t.” – Tessa (01:54)
• “That idea of the celebrity culture which took root and began in America has been partly held up by our royal family.” – Tessa (00:44)
• “The political phenomenon which you're describing as populism in this country is not the same as in America. It's almost two different things.” – Iain (06:17)
• “I mean, did I win that? No, quietly.” – Tessa on interpreting Trump’s comments (25:10)
• “Devolution was supposed to basically scupper the Nationalists and it's done the exact opposite.” – Iain (42:12)
• “The way in which the political landscape and its interrogation by the media has changed since devolution… has been, I think, devastating for Scottish democracy.” – Tessa (35:35)
• “Visible policing… would send a signal to those who wish harm on Jews.” – Iain (50:12)
• “But the cosiness of Westminster does concern me. But I think you make a good point that actually it's an even smaller piece.” – Tessa (40:45)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:35–02:47 – Debating the public’s awareness and reaction to the King’s US visit and celebrity culture
• 06:17–08:34 – Nuances of populism: UK vs US and the role of personality/presentation
• 09:47–14:30 – Tessa’s campaign for the Romanian GCSE and the power of youth voices
• 16:14–18:37 – Iain’s US broadcast experiences and row with Pastor Mark Burns
• 21:50–23:26 – Monarchy’s diplomatic role, special relationship, and King’s speech to Congress
• 24:01–25:07 – The Anglo-Saxon “courage” debate and historical framing in US/UK relations
• 28:07–29:14 – Highlights and humor from King Charles’s speech
• 33:03–38:43 – Decline of Scottish/Welsh media and consequences for democracy
• 41:25–42:12 – Devolution and unintended rise of nationalism
• 47:09–51:10 – Antisemitic attacks, policing, and the challenge of communal security
• 52:16–54:39 – Tucker Carlson on the BBC and UK vs US free speech
• 57:39–59:00 – Scottish political flashpoints (Thatcher’s legacy, devolution, and the 2014 independence referendum)
• 60:20–62:59 – Closing laughs: stag party chat and light-hearted banter

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Tone and Style

The episode retains the hosts’ signature banter—mixing robust disagreement with warmth and wit. Tessa frequently injects historical context and passionate advocacy (not least for Romanian students), while Iain is unfiltered, sometimes dismissive, but always well-informed and rooted in the political present. Their chemistry is both adversarial and endearing, offering serious political analysis lightened by jibes and playful asides.

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Conclusion

Episode 120 delivers a spirited, multifaceted discussion: from the symbolism of monarchy in contemporary diplomacy, the persistent allure of populism, and the fragility of British/Scottish media, to urgent challenges of antisemitism and speech in the UK. The hosts’ friendly sparring and personal anecdotes ensure the episode is both informative and entertaining, making history feel as close as today’s headlines.

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For listeners:
You’ll come away with new perspectives on this week’s news—and with a few hearty laughs at Iain and Tessa’s expense.

Transcript

[Tess]

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[Ian]

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[Tess]

This is a Global Player original podcast.

[Ian]

Most of the MAGA people are not interested in anything outside the borders of the United States. Were they aware of the state visit taking place? Probably not.

[Tess]

I couldn't disagree with you more. That idea of the celebrity culture which took root and began in America has been partly held up by our royal family. Everything that Christian Turner said, we already know. We know that Kir's been on the ropes. We know that special relations.

[Ian]

You don't say things like that.

[Tess]

Well, so what can you say, Ian? What can you say if you're standing

[Ian]

talk about the relationship between our country and America? You don't talk, don't speculate on the future of your prime minister. That is a job for people like me, not ambassadors.

[Tess]

I actually suggested as a point of information that the best way to start a pod probably wasn't with Ian snoring. It would appear that I've been overruled by my entitled male counterpart on the pod. How is America, Ian?

[Ian]

15 seconds it took you to have an anti male comment.

[Tess]

Is that a record?

[Ian]

I was watching your Instagram reel today. I can't. I didn't bother going on with it because again, you. You basically had to go at Prince King Charles because he was a man.

[Tess]

No, you're quite wrong. You got. How could you possibly get the wrong end of the stick? Oh, because you gave up?

[Ian]

Yeah, I didn't bother going on with it. Here she goes again.

[Tess]

No, I merely pointed out on TMZ because I'm so down with Dem kids, that Trump clearly felt more comfortable as a strong man alongside our little medieval esque king than he did beside the superwoman global phenomenon that was the late Queen. Okay, that's not anti man, it's anti Trump. Perhaps suggesting he couldn't make room for a woman and also identifying that alpha male type. Trump wants to be the most important person in the room and alongside our late queen, he simply wasn't.

[Ian]

What did you make of the fact that during the King's speech to Congress, the White House put out a tweet with a Picture of the king and Trump with the caption two kings with a crown emoji.

[Tess]

That was one of Trump. I mean, it wasn't dust. It wasn't a Trump truth social, was it?

[Ian]

Because it was released official White House Twitter feed.

[Tess]

I think it was being playful. I think there are those who are understandably concerned that is Trump going to be hanging around until death us do part? I believe this was much more a kind of bromance, an idea of Trump suggesting that they've got more in common than they have what divides them. I also think it speaks to that inherent child in Trump where he wants what he can't have and he can't have the transcendent glamour of hereditary kingship. Sorry about that, mate.

[Ian]

Well, we will come on to discuss more of this later in the podcast. I'm slightly struggling to find any words today which doesn't really bode very well for the program.

[Tess]

Can you cut that bit, Corey? Oh, rather wonderfully. The editor of our remote pod. Elliot didn't cut the bits you needed cut. I did have a chuckle.

[Ian]

Yes. I did make my feelings very clear on that to Elliot and he has exercised it and reloaded it, has he?

[Tess]

So will Elliot be booked again?

[Ian]

Possibly not.

[Tess]

Don't get on the wrong side of Ian.

[Ian]

No. A lesson you should learn.

[Tess]

Although sometimes what Ian does when I need things cut is he says, why did you say it in the first place?

[Ian]

Well, there is that.

[Tess]

Yes, indeed. Anyway, let's move swiftly on.

[Ian]

Anyway, we're recording this at half past two on Wednesday and I got back into the country at about 11 o' clock and having endured an economy flight,

[Tess]

six foot, all six foot five of you, how was the great land of the free?

[Ian]

I really enjoyed Washington because I love Washington. It has changed quite a bit, though. When I arrived on Sunday, when did we record the last Patty, Helly and

[Tess]

Monday, Darling, it's only been a couple of weeks.

[Ian]

I may have said this before.

[Tess]

I'll tell you if you have.

[Ian]

Did I talk about Union Station? I think I did, yes, you did. Yeah. We won't go there. But Washington itself is so much quieter than it ever was.

[Tess]

Explain the conundrum that is the appeal of populist politics. Very similar things going on in different packaging in Britain and in America. And yet in America, they have had pretty much untrammeled economic growth since the financial crash of 2008, unlike Britain and most of Europe.

[Ian]

There's a reason for that.

[Tess]

So I can understand our populism. I listened to that. Oh, that oozing Charm from every pore. Oiling his way across the radio floor, Nigel Farage this morning on the Today program, sounding worryingly, eminently electable. Don't fall for it, ladies and gentlemen, but I did think I can understand why people go for populism in this country because we've had anemic economic problems for well over a decade. There's not enough to go around. So there are a set of have nots and the have nots kick the system by voting in an anti establishment populist way. Explain why the same phenomenon is manifesting in America, which is far richer than it was 10, 15 years ago.

[Ian]

Well, part of the reason, in fact, I would say a large part of the reason that America growth is much better than here is because they understand that the more you regulate, the more you stifle growth.

[Tess]

Yes, but why populism? Why is it also why, despite their wealth, if we say we've got populism partly because of this economic stagnation, you

[Ian]

use this word as a catch all. The political phenomenon which you're describing as populism in this country is not the same as in America. It's almost two different things. In America, Trump has managed to portray himself as almost a revolutionary, not part of the elite, not part of the system. But of course he is.

[Tess]

But likewise, Farage went to Dulwich College, poses an anti establishment character. I think there's clear similarities between the two.

[Ian]

I don't, I don't think I agree with you, really. I mean, yes, you can say, well, because he went to Dulwich College, therefore, that he must be part of the establishment. I don't buy that at all.

[Tess]

But even he aligns himself to that, to the MAGA sort of ethos often flies over there. Less so, less so now because it's politically not convenient.

[Ian]

Well, I think the scales are starting to fall from his eyes about Trump and you see that in all sorts of public comments he's made recently. I think it's, and I know people who are reasonably well, I say reasonably close to him. They know him, they see him a lot and they say the same thing, that he no longer is boasting about his relationship with Donald Trump.

[Tess]

That's partly because he understands what Trump's doing doesn't go down with his base. Likewise with a lot of people in America. They're feeling pretty nonplussed, which is why the King's visit was as much of a win for Trump as it was for Britain, because it actually rebooted the MAGA movement in Their more old school monarchical two kings.

[Ian]

I think you're claiming quite a lot there. I don't think it had any such effect at all.

[Tess]

I think it was a welcome distraction, actually.

[Ian]

Well, I don't think the MAGA movement as such, the ordinary members of the Maga movement from Alabama or wherever they are, I don't think they would have paid any attention to the King's visit.

[Tess]

I think you're wrong. I. I think you underestimate the mythical appeal of performance when it twins together old school ideas of America with their heritage, with their. And Trump said it in a speech, they're Anglo Saxon, veins filled with courage. There's so much dodgy stuff.

[Ian]

Most of the Maga people are not interested in anything outside the borders of the United States. They might be vaguely aware that England has a king. Were they aware of the state visit taking place? Prob. Probably not.

[Tess]

I wonder on what basis you say that. I. I couldn't disagree with you more, funnily enough.

[Ian]

And on what basis do you say that?

[Tess]

Well, it. That she was incredibly popular. Victoria, for example, in the 19th century, in the Gilded Age. And when I say popular, she ranked as a celebrity. And that idea of the celebrity culture which took root and began in America has been partly held up by our royal family. And if I go on the likes of tmz, they're not talking to the chattering classes, they're asking me how come the old bicycle has been recycled so well, I'm saying that perhaps somebody in Alabama was listening. We were meant to do the King's speech in the second part of the book.

[Ian]

I know. When you keep going on about it,

[Tess]

well, I can't get away from it. You've just come back from America. God, you look threatening. You look like one of the founding.

[Ian]

I thought I would just tell you about my trip, but clearly you're not interested, so.

[Tess]

Corey, don't cut that bit. Oh, dear. Well, I'm glad you've made it home, Uncle Sam. That's all I can say. You haven't asked me. Normally I'm the one being berated for not asking you about what you've been up to.

[Ian]

Oh, my God.

[Tess]

But come on.

[Ian]

I did say at the beginning. In fact, what was it before we started? We want to hear about your Romanian event, which I couldn't attend.

[Tess]

You couldn't and you were missed. It was the most extraordinary, overwhelming, had a massive hashtag adrenaline slump the next day event. I've got to say, I was appalled and impressed in equal measures. I was quite impressed. By some of the politicians, many of whom popped in and registered their interest. Those that stood out, Gareth Thomas, who not only hosted the event, but he sat beside me throughout and he informed me of all the politicians that came in, made sure I knew their names, made sure I was therefore primed to bring them in spontaneously throughout the evening. I was also impressed, just so that I spread the accolades evenly, by Caroline Noakes, who is a Conservative mp, deputy speaker, Southampton and Romsey, I believe. And she was fascinating. She was totally engaged. She stayed throughout. But the real stars of the show in, they made me almost cry. They were just amazing. Were these children, 15 year old children who came in from Northampton, from Leeds.

[Ian]

Really?

[Tess]

Pass. Pass. Oh, yeah, we were properly organized. I'm not going to put on an event in Westminster and spank it. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm going to deliver. And I had the most inspiring teacher called Caleb Dodd, and he reached out when he saw this article in BBC London a couple of months ago about the need for Romanian gcse. And he said, you've got no idea. He said, I've got hundreds of Romanian kids and they're the only cohort who can't do a GCSE in their language. And it's devastating because actually it's a real way of reaching children. If they feel they succeed in something, then you've got a gateway into them. And he bought two of these children who don't have a GCSE down with him. They're passing English, Ian. They are the second generation Romanians. The problem with Romania at the moment is the adult Romanians are foreign, innit? Quite right. They've got every right to be foreign. But actually we know the political climate. We don't allow foreigners the rights and the space and the oxygen they deserve. But we will hear it in a package that speaks to us. So when you get children coming down from Leeds and Northampton that passes English and they stand up and they sound English. I can't do Northampton and I can't do Leeds. But by God, they sounded like they were born and bred in Yorkshire. Okay. And they.

[Ian]

I can do Leeds. We've got a listener, Tyler, in Leeds, and he rings up and goes, hey up. And I say, hey upcock.

[Tess]

Right. But thank God, they're 50 years younger than Tyler. All right, so they're in it.

[Ian]

No, Tyler is in his 20s. He doesn't say, well, I do.

[Tess]

They didn't. You do. But these kids, they were on the money. We've got all these people, the ambassadors, obviously they're stuck way back when in the 1990s. So they're addressing a room, mumbling, no one can really hear. And I'm like, oh, God, hope the evening, you know, gets going, because you have to hear what people are saying for it to make an impact. So I go to the young blood in the room and I see Stella Creasy. Stella Creasy, who pops in as well, literally sit up. When this young teacher stands and says, I'm not angry about this. He says, I'm furious that I've got hundreds of children in my school who can't even be given a GCSE in their language. And then two kids either side of him. And at the end, one of them. I asked at the very end of the evening, because I was aware that MPs were coming in and out and they hadn't all heard from the young ones. I got Larissa and another girl from Northampton, Anna Erica, to come and just give concluding thoughts. And they was like, but we haven't. We haven't prepared for this bit, Miss. I said, it doesn't matter. As you've seen this evening, you know, it's all. It's all hitting the ground running. And also, I hope they took away from the fact that not all adults can do it either. And Larissa turned around, she went to the entire room, she went, the fact I had to come down here to London to tell you that we need the gcse, she says it's messed up in it. She said it was absolutely winning. And then the girl next to her stands up. Anna Erica, ballroom dancer too, doing a GCSE in dance. And she says, how come it is. She says that there is one native Spanish speaker in our Northampton Academy and we all is doing GCSE Spanish, and there is 300 Romanians in our school and we ain't got a GCSE. They were spellbinding, Ian. And do you know what? All of them could. Could. They sounded like their parents might well have voted for reform. And that is their secret weapon. If I can somehow get them as a cohort and get them seen as a. Well over a hundred thousand of them.

[Ian]

Well, I hope when she said, ain't you corrected, say haven't got no.

[Tess]

I God damn well didn't. I just was like, punching the air. And Caroline Noakes emailed me afterwards and she said, anything I can do to help. She said the young people were, well,

[Ian]

that's what you need to do in any campaign. You need to have three or four MPs who you can just pick up the phone to and say, look, can you do this, can you do that, can you talk to so and so? Because I think the next stage of this is going to be quite interesting as to how, because it's not clear to me who has the power here.

[Tess]

No.

[Ian]

Is it the exam boards that hold total control over this, or is there an influence that government can bring to bear on it? Because there ought to be.

[Tess]

I need both. I need, first of all, Bridget to sign it off. And then I need to start getting my young ones to stand with banners outside the exam boards and get some press on it, get channel 4 news, etc, and that's where I'm gonna lean on you and Jackie. Interestingly, I'm going to send an email to Jackie with a dossier of the incredible success.

[Ian]

You might need to send that to me first. Vetting.

[Tess]

It's all right, I'll. I'll apologize before I start the email. Do you know Tati, the other day, just quickly because it is time for a break call. You can cut here. But I thought I'd done a really bad job on telly last week because I was overtired and Tati said, you know, Tessa, if you're not worked out, you can perform mediocrely. The key things is don't say anything sexually inappropriate or assault anybody and you should be fine.

[Ian]

She's never had the need to say that to me.

[Tess]

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[Ian]

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[Ian]

So, as we all know, I was in Washington for two days.

[Tess]

Where were you?

[Ian]

Washington, D.C. district capital. And so we did two shows, live shows, where I had a live picture of the White House behind me, which I thought I felt, because originally someone said I should just have an LBC screen. What is the point of me being in Washington if it's not obvious that I'm in Washington? So I won that one. But it's, I mean, live television, when you're in a foreign country and you've got a slightly dodgy earpiece so you can't necessarily hear everything that's being said to you from London, it is, I think, the most challenging broadcasting that you can do. But I really enjoy it because you are literally flying by the seat of your pants and there's no script or anything like that. And of course, in London, I've got an earpiece in each ear, so I'm used to sort of hearing myself as I'm speaking, whereas there, I only had one earpiece in that ear. And it, because it's so different, you at times you sort of wonder, well, am I on air or not? And was quite challenging at times.

[Tess]

Who were you guests?

[Ian]

Well, we had various sort of like, we had a couple of former ambassadors. Oh, my God. We had Donald Trump's spiritual advisor, Pastor Mark Burns.

[Tess]

And what was he saying?

[Ian]

Who is one of these guests that, as the interview goes on, gets progressively louder and more intemperate. And I ended up having a real row with him, which was in a sense quite difficult because I could only hear about half of what he was saying because he was so loud. And he then started going on about the dangerous path and our nation is taking.

[Tess]

What about immigrants or something?

[Ian]

Well, just. I don't know what he meant. I let him finish the. What he was saying. I said, let's just scroll back a bit. What do you mean by dangerous path? What, what right have you got to say that our country is going on a dangerous path? That's very insulting. Then he starts on a rant again. We have an, oh, I can't remember. So we have an absolute barney for about two or three minutes. And I then accused him of being. He was going on about how Britain wasn't a Christian nation anymore, about immigrants. And so you knew it was about that. So I then said, well, hang on a minute, the King has just made a speech in which he spent two or three minutes talking about his own Christian faith and the fact that Britain is a Christian nation. So don't give me that.

[Tess]

But we're not entirely Christian. I mean, our establishment church is Christian.

[Ian]

And much of our conversation, well, we are a Christian nation because we have an established church. Now, some of us think we probably shouldn't, but there we are, just if

[Tess]

we may, because we are where politics meets history. I was fascinated by the different ways that history has been weaponized over the last two days, because for a lot of us, and including, of course, the latest ambassador to America, yes, Christian Turner, he, for turning. Do you think he might be showing the door quite quickly?

[Ian]

I don't think he will be, but he probably deserves to be because I thought the comments that he made to a group of sixth formers, you don't have to be Einstein to work out. When you're two weeks into the job, you don't make indiscreet comments to anybody. And Kim, we had Lord Kim Darrick on, who used to be ambassador, and I said, you wouldn't. You wouldn't have done this. And he was basically saying, oh, well, it's all the fault of social media and the. And the fault of the person who leaked it. No, actually, it's the fault of the person who said the words.

[Tess]

I've got to be honest, I've. Because of this whole Romanian campaign, I've had extensive communication now with three ambassadors, with the British ambassador in Bucharest, Giles Portman, with Lara Popescu, the Romanian ambassador, and with, of course, the ambassador to the Moldovan Republic. And it now explains some of what might be caveated as shortcomings in their personality. Actually, they just can't God damn well say anything, can they? Because sometimes I'm like, come on, give me a bit, Lara, tell me something, Lara. But they can't. Everything that Christian Turner said, we already know. We know that Keir Starmer's been on the ropes.

[Ian]

We know you don't say things like that.

[Tess]

Well, so what can you say, Ian? What can you say if you're standing with.

[Ian]

Talk about the relationship between our country and America? You don't talk, don't speculate on the future of your Prime Minister. That is for. That is a job for people like me, not. Not ambassadors.

[Tess]

But this was off the record.

[Ian]

Oh, was it?

[Tess]

Well, nothing in a formal.

[Ian]

Sorry, yeah. I mean, did he say these are Chatham House Rules? Did he explain what Chatham House Rules are? I suspect he didn't, but even if he did, it's naive in the extreme to think that you can say things like that to a group of sixth formers and not expect one of them to think, oh, I just switched my phone recorder on for this, and then leak it at the most inopportune time.

[Tess]

Tracking. They sold it.

[Ian]

Of course they did.

[Tess]

Financial Times got loads of credits yesterday.

[Ian]

Although, actually, to be fair, Lucy Fisher, I doubt whether she'd part with money. Does the FT buy things like that? I doubt whether.

[Tess]

I don't know. I was just interested as how it rose to the surface and with such impeccable timing, just as we were examining our own special relationship, although, as the King referred to it, the special ingredient, which I thought was a very effective euphemism for the fraying tension.

[Ian]

Well, let's get back to him, because I, to be honest, I wasn't expecting an awful lot from This, I thought it would be going. Going through the motions and I thought. I didn't think he delivered it particularly well, but I thought it was a brilliant speech. Now, of course, he didn't write it and we have to keep making that clear. The speech is written by the government. He can tweak it, he can add bits in, he can take things out with agreement. But whoever did write that speech pulled off a blinder.

[Tess]

Well, the interesting thing is, of course, it's a reminder of the power of the institution of monarchy and the pan national power of monarchy, because there's no way little Britain would be allowed that space in front of a joint audience in Congress. This was about the institution of monarchy and about its share with America.

[Ian]

That's simply not true.

[Tess]

It is. It is true.

[Ian]

No, it's not.

[Tess]

Because Trump told me.

[Ian]

Well, let me tell you why it isn't true. You go first, because Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair have given addresses to Congress

[Tess]

at the moment, at the moment, Britain would not be given this platform. It's because of monarchy. But right now. I know, but it's because of monarchy. So Keir Starmer, for example, is what I'm trying to say.

[Ian]

If we didn't have a monarchy, hasn't turned it. He's only been Prime Minister for two years, he's done nothing really to support America, so why would he.

[Tess]

That's what's interesting. That's the point. I'm trying to come to where our country is accorded a platform that, as you have just said, it hasn't earned in America's eyes, at least at the moment, in the metrics of loyalty as a. As an ally in a nation. And yet we're given it anyway. And that is because of our shared history and the way in which monarchy speaks to more than just Britain and other countries that come under King Charles's reign. And I think it's spoken to in Trump's speech, you know, the fact he said, you know, before 250 years, the colonials who were here were saying, God save the King. And that, I thought, highly dodgy comment about Anglo Saxon courage running through their veins. There was quite a lot in there, if you flip.

[Ian]

Dodgy.

[Tess]

Well, I think any generalization based on race and suggestion almost of a superiority of that race, which was a huge amount.

[Ian]

Sorry, we are Anglo Saxons. Why, why can't we say that?

[Tess]

Yeah, we're suggesting that it's a particularly courageous. It's one way of framing the frontiersman who went and crashed into the Native Americans. But I don't know if it was hugely comfortable. I didn't think actually as an expression

[Ian]

for woke lefties like you may be, but for me it's just stating a fact. We are of Anglo Saxon heritage, but obviously we're not allowed to say so because we're not ethically mixed. I mean, for fuck's sake.

[Tess]

It was just the veins, you know,

[Ian]

it was just that you don't half over interpret things.

[Tess]

I think Trump was speaking to his base and therefore he was deliberately trying to trigger those on the other side. And I wasn't triggered. I'm not that immature.

[Ian]

Well, I don't like Trump at all, but I mean, why. Why insist on trying to paint him in the worst possible light when you have no clue whether he meant it like that or not?

[Tess]

I think we do have a bit of a clue. I mean, the Anglo Saxon idea of it being the Anglo Saxons being a superior race absolutely prevalent in the late 19th century. Americans bought into it heavily. The British bought into it heavily. All the kind of revering the 1870s.

[Ian]

Fine. But we're in 2026 now. Nobody who describes themselves as Anglo Saxon unless they are an out and out racist is going to say that we're superior to other races.

[Tess]

And you don't think there's a little bit of that philosophy that drives the MAGA base? A little bit of that thinking?

[Ian]

I'm sure there are parts of it that does.

[Tess]

I mean, did I win that? No, quietly.

[Ian]

Because, I mean, you're basically saying that he, the king was only invited because he was Anglo Saxon.

[Tess]

Yeah.

[Ian]

I think it's strange how Benjamin Netanyahu did a speech recently and he's not Anglo Saxon.

[Tess]

I think it's the way. Well, we know they have the other, according to our ambassador, special relationship with America. That's a very different story and we can go down that. But there are lots of particular racial path. Another day.

[Ian]

There are lots of people who get invited to give addresses to Congress. They're not all Anglo Saxon.

[Tess]

No. But Trump highlighted the commonality of what's flowing through the veins.

[Ian]

It's a fact that we have common ancestry.

[Tess]

Yeah. It's also. It was interesting to hear our colonial past served up to us on this wonderful MAGA silver platter. You know, given how the colonies and our imperial history is so often held up as a sort of whipping boy for all ills. I was fascinated by this reversioning, especially from an American. The country that of course was one of the first to kick off the mothership. It was historically I found Tantalizing But I also was. Well, it was noteworthy that he plucked that Anglo Saxon courage and colonialism as the positive. The USP that tracks back our forefathers and beyond to this start point. Whereas Charles was looking at the Magna Carta and thinking of checks and balances. So we have the unelected king worrying about checks and balances and we have the democratically elected MAGA leader looking at what surges through Anglo Saxon veins. That's all.

[Ian]

I genuinely don't know where to start with that load of old rubbish.

[Tess]

But that's the whole point.

[Ian]

I mean the King, the king talked about our colonial past. He did it with humour. He did it in a way that, that people weren't going to be offended. He talked about us burning down the White House, I thought in a really, I mean, funny way. And he did what he was there to do. And his, his mission was to try and rebalance the terrible relationship that has come about over the past, well, couple of months really. And I think he achieved more than anyone could have expected him to. And I don't think we need to over interpret individual words or phrases.

[Tess]

That is what everyone's been doing ad infinitum for the last two days. And just because my interpretation doesn't match up with the establishment media's interpretation, you're giving me hell.

[Ian]

Well, I just think it's ludicrous the way you've interpreted it.

[Tess]

But also remember, I'm not criticizing Charles speech, which by the way, I thought the two winning points. One was when he was referring to the 250 years that have fast since American independence. And what does he say? Oh, we just, just the other day.

[Ian]

Yeah, that was the best. I actually I, I roared with laughter when he said that. That was a brilliant line, good line

[Tess]

and a reminder that American culture is based on novelty. Which is why going back to your

[Ian]

point about Alabama, American culture discuss.

[Tess]

Yeah, based on novelty. And we give them the inheritance they need. We give them the history heft. Yeah, which is why I disagree with you about Alabama not being engaged.

[Ian]

Well, we'll never know that, will we? Unless we go and do a poll in Alabama. But I think the events of Saturday night in the ballroom obscured the visit for a lot of the American media. They were still. CNN was still banging on about all of that yesterday. And okay, it did get coverage in the American media, but not to the extent that it would have done had the Saturday night thing not happened.

[Tess]

Really? Or was it a fitting juxtaposition? Was it an emollient that was so desperately Needed. I also loved it when Charles was it in the White House last night when he said, you know, there might be things going on in the Middle east, you know, a bit like there was when my mother came over in 1957, just after Suez.

[Ian]

Yeah. Which was, again, was a brilliant way of putting it. I mean, I struggle. I've never been Chance's biggest fan, I'm gonna admit that, but I struggle to find anything apart from the delivery of the speech, which I thought was a little bit hesitant.

[Tess]

He was very tired and he.

[Ian]

He kept trying to unstick the pages of the speech, which. I mean, anybody that's been in that situation, which I have once, I mean, it is completely just disconnected.

[Tess]

You thought someone would have worked out that might happen.

[Ian]

Well, yeah. I don't know why.

[Tess]

He's also got very big hands. Doesn't. He's got a problem with his hands. And that makes dexterity with paper and pens and stuff difficult.

[Ian]

I'm glad he didn't use an auto key.

[Tess]

Yeah. Oh, it's much easier to read off paper.

[Ian]

But, yeah. I mean, I think Keir Starmer. Bear in mind that he was sent there by Keir Starmer. Can be very pleased about the way that went.

[Tess]

The other thing is, it's taken the heat slightly off Starmer this week.

[Ian]

Well, it has. And, I mean, but we haven't got this on the agenda to discuss. But that. That vote yesterday, I actually think that signed Keir Starmer's death warrant, because to whip your MPs in a way that even Boris Johnson didn't whip them over being referred to the Privileges Committee. I mean, obviously they won the vote. But to say how many rebelled? 15. 15 Labour MPs rebelled. It was, I think. Was it 3, 2, 3 to 2, 1, 2 or something like that?

[Tess]

You didn't need to whip them. It was weird.

[Ian]

Well, I agree. And what he should have done is actually referred himself to the Privileges Committee, because if he really is confident that he didn't mislead House, I mean, what have you got to fear?

[Tess]

I'll tell you why I don't think you should have done that after the break. Because I think actually, in terms of balance, the level of scrutiny that goes on south of the border relative to, for example, north of the border, where there's also significant elections, is striking. Hey, it's your ceiling vent. So I'm dripping. Could be the rain, could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin. Do we know if he's licensed or does he just own a ladder?

[Ian]

Listen to your home.

[Tess]

Go with thumbtack. Upload a photo or voice note and we'll diagnose your project and match you with the right pro for the job. Thumbtack.

[Ian]

We know, Holmes.

[Tess]

Hire the right pro today.

[Ian]

So we have the sc. I was going to say the skelch. The Scottish and Welsh elections on May 7. So what is that? Is that. That's. Is that a week today? A week tomorrow?

[Tess]

It's a week today. It's Thursday. The election's on a Thursday normally, aren't they?

[Ian]

Yeah. So only a week to go. I'm off to Cardiff tomorrow to chair a six way Welsh leaders debate, which in some ways I'm really looking forward to. But in other ways, how do you control six people in a debate for 90 minutes?

[Tess]

You're gonna have to learn their names. And so many.

[Ian]

You know that. That is you. You have absolutely hit the nail on the head with that remark. Because would I recognize any of them if I walked past them in the street? And the answer is probably not.

[Tess]

Let's hope none of them listen to the pod. You're hardly ingratiating yourself to Wales, are you, at the moment, Ian?

[Ian]

Anyway, Corey has done me a very good briefing document. He sent me all loads of stuff to read on the plane last night. Did I read any of it? No, I didn't.

[Tess]

Tonya Antionozzi for Gower, MP for Gower, the Deputy of the APPG on Modern languages. She popped in and spoke to my committee meeting or whatever it was called on. On Monday night, which I was very appreciative of. So if you do happen to see her when passing through, she won't be there. Oh, well, I appreciated her appearance anyway, very much.

[Ian]

But I think Scotland and Wales are going to be the big stories of that, those elections on May 7th.

[Tess]

And I want to have a little chat about Scotland. Now, I must declare my vested interest here, although I can't decide whether I want to win or lose just because the idea of having a politician in the family I find, well, vaguely nauseating to be honest. Especially as it's in Scotland. So bloody no good for my GCSE campaign whatsoever. But my younger brother, Duncan Dunlop is the list candidate for South Scotland for the Liberal Democrats.

[Ian]

No, he's an actual candidate as well. We discussed this.

[Tess]

But it's called a list. It's called.

[Ian]

No, no, he's a constituency candidate too.

[Tess]

Oh, is he? Okay, good that you've got your. Your. More.

[Ian]

He won't win that one, but yeah, okay.

[Tess]

But he's up for grabs.

[Ian]

Yeah. And we're not allowed. Well, actually, you see, I don't know about the rules for podcasts because if we were doing this on the radio, you could not say vote for my brother.

[Tess]

I'm not saying no, I know I've made it clear that I'm ambivalent, but

[Ian]

I don't know whether you're allowed to on podcasts or not. So let's, let's, let's play safe anyway.

[Tess]

But, anyway, so good luck to Duncan. But what I do think is fascinating, bearing in mind I grew up with a highly engaged, although not active, political father. He read the Glasgow Herald from front cover to back cover. He was incredibly well informed. There was a vigorous press, isn't it,

[Ian]

for a sort of Highland farmer to read.

[Tess]

Yeah, he wasn't a landowner, remember, he was a factor and he was a free thinker. And the Glasgow Herald, it was a bit like sort of channel, the Channel 4 News of Scotland in the 1980s, I would say an equivalent of the more conservative with the small C was the Scotsman.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tess]

But equally well funded with a. With a wide subscription. What's the word? Come on, help me here.

[Ian]

Circulation.

[Tess]

Circulation, that's a wide circulation. The Scotsman came from Edinburgh and was that a little bit more conservative? And those two papers, I mean they are not even fish and check paper now a couple of pages. They have been absolutely clobbered in the demise of the legacy media which has hit Scotland disproportionately. And yes, there's the national now, which speaks to the independence movement. But the way in which the political landscape and its interrogation by the media has changed since devolution. You can track this. But of course it's been exacerbated because of the depletion of traditional media has been, I think, devastating for Scottish democracy.

[Ian]

Well, I think the Scottish media. Sorry, I'm going to cough. I think the Scottish media, the print media and broadcast media are very different to the English counterparts.

[Tess]

They're a shadow of their former.

[Ian]

Well, it's not just that. I mean, in a way, see, the UK wide newspapers have actually embraced the Internet to an extent where they can survive. You look at the Times and the Telegraph and now the Mail were a bit late on this. And the sun also, I think. But the Times and the Telegraph have built up a really big subscriber base online.

[Tess]

But there's the key big, the word big. But the problem is with Scottish devolution, it means that those big Circulation papers

[Ian]

no longer really bothered, but they were never big circulation. I mean, if you look at The Glasgow Herald 20 or 30 years ago, it had a circulation and what of about 80,000? Well, a UK wide newspaper couldn't exist on that. So I think it's wrong to say they had a big circulation but they had enough to make them work financially. So. But what's happened now is that they've cut back on the print side as, yeah, virtually everyone.

[Tess]

And they can't make it work on the Internet side.

[Ian]

Well, because you need more clicks. Well, I don't know how they're. I mean, I have a subscription to the national and the only reason I've got that is not because I support it, it's because they, they wrote a story about me and I needed to know what they'd said so I had to subscribe and I've never cancelled it and it is quite useful actually. But I haven't, I don't subscribe to the other ones but I sort of now feel maybe I should. I subscribe to the Irish Times because it is a brilliant product.

[Tess]

But I tell you why this matters. It matters because, for example, in Scotland there have been half the number of opinion polls done in the run up to this May election than there were for its equivalent in 2021. That speaks to a lack of interest and a lack of media investment in what's going on in Scotland. And we see it manifest in the electoral results of Scotland. The snp, who have been besieged by scandal after scandal, failing after failing on a governmental level, are about to flip all the conventional wisdom at the moment which says incumbents can't be re elected on its head. And I would suggest it's because they are simply not interrogated. As we speak next week, up for sentencing former SNP council leader who had to stand down as North Lanarkshire council leader in 2022, Jordan Linden, because of a series of sexual offences for which he'll be sentenced next week. If you look at the disparity between the way in which we go over and over Keir Starmer and the Mandelson story and the SNP walk scot free every time.

[Ian]

Okay, I'm going to agree and disagree with you. I think the opinion poll thing that you raised, I think is a red herring. The reason, I mean, you may be right that maybe it's because they can't afford to commission these polls. You might be right.

[Tess]

Money behind everything.

[Ian]

But I don't think you are. I think it's more that if you know what the result's going to be. Why would you waste money on opinion polls? Because they're quite expensive.

[Tess]

No, they don't know.

[Ian]

I'm sorry, we do know what results go.

[Tess]

Where reform and Labour come is the big fascination.

[Ian]

Well, we know reform are going to come second.

[Tess]

I disagree with you. I disagree that it's because it's a foregone conclusion, because actually, about a year ago people thought labor was going to be winning. So arguably that's been fluid in itself, I mean.

[Ian]

All right, well, I think that is one explanation as to why there haven't been so many polls. Where I do think you're right is I think that the Scottish media have been craven to the SNP ever since the days of Alex Salmond. I don't think you're wholly right to say that they haven't covered the Peter Morrell issue very extensively. I mean, they really have. But they do seem to give the SNP the benefit of the doubt. Now, that often happens because broadcasters and newspapers are reliant on whichever party is in government to give them interviews. And Scottish politicians, I think, as a generalization, are much more. What's the word I'm trying to find? No, not particularly. They're much more sensitive. They don't like overt criticism. And if you overtly criticize a politician as a judge, journalists, you don't get any cooperation from them, again. Whereas in England, I think it's less so. And I think they. They just know it's part. I mean, I had a. Did an interview last night with Jake Richards, the Justice Minister, on. I mean, partly about the King and partly about Starmer and what happened yesterday, and I gave him an absolute shellacking.

[Tess]

You did? Yeah, because you're Mr. Nice. Not that I would ever accuse you of corruption of any sort, of course.

[Ian]

Well, I would hope you wouldn't.

[Tess]

Or befriending people for perks. No, no, no, I agree.

[Ian]

Who have I befriended for perks?

[Tess]

But the cosiness of Westminster does concern me. But I think you make a good point that actually it's an even smaller piece.

[Ian]

But you see, Jake Richards, I mean, he's a newly elected mp, he's a minister, but he. I mean, he's the son of Steve Richards. He knows the game and he knows that just because I gave him a bit of a going over last night, that won't stop him from being interviewed, me interviewing him again. Whereas I think if I did that to John Swinney, that would be the end.

[Tess]

So basically you're saying it's a much smaller pool so you can't afford to make big ripples.

[Ian]

Yeah, I think that is part of it, I really do. I don't think it's necessarily just down to the snp, though. I think the same thing happened when Labour were in power.

[Tess]

But I think that speaks to the danger, one of the many dangers of devolution. I always thought devolution is just a slippery slope, hope in the end, to flicking off what has worked for centuries. And well, it is for me, it's going to be the great tragedy of Tony Blair's administration. We say it's the Iraq War. No, for me it was ticking that box to sort of itch a scratch, but in fact not really ever addressing some of the root causes that. That demanded devolution because it just means that Scotland is never properly addressed on national media because really we're always talking about surveys and, and schools and hospitals in England and Wales. So they then for feel disengaged and marginalized that then exacerbates the tendency towards ideas of independence.

[Ian]

I totally agree with you because I think devolution was supposed to basically scupper the Nationalists and it's done the exact opposite. It's let the Nationalist genie out of the bottle and once it's out, very difficult to put back. But the other point I want to make is that. But I think the UK media pays lip service to covering what goes on in Scotland and Wales and particularly Northern Ireland. I mean, Northern Ireland gets no coverage at all and I've tried to fight against that. We wanted to do a similar debate to the one we're doing in Wales, in Scotland. Why aren't we?

[Tess]

Why aren't you?

[Ian]

Because John Swinney wouldn't take part. All the other leaders said they'd take part. The SNP said, well, what's in it for us?

[Tess]

Well, why don't you just do it? And because platform him or whatever the word is.

[Ian]

Well, we then. They then said, oh, we'll have Stephen Flynn. I thought, okay. And then they withdrew him and they gave us some housing minister whose name I now can't remember, a woman. And I thought, well, I've never heard of her. And we'll have. The rest of the UK listeners have heard of her. And I thought, well, the other parties aren't going to do it if they're, if they're all. If there's five leaders plus the housing minister. I mean, I wouldn't do it if I was one of the other party leaders. So it all collapsed and that is Purely down to the SNP deciding that they were more important than democracy.

[Tess]

But why couldn't you have just platformed the other five leaders and left the.

[Ian]

Because they wouldn't have done it without the snp.

[Tess]

Because of balance.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tess]

So it would have gone against regulations.

[Ian]

Well, no, no. I think as long as you've given the SNP the opportunity to take part, that's fine. But I don't think the others would have still taken part if the SNP weren't part of it, really. They gave that clear indication because they

[Tess]

need the oxygen more than the snp. So I'm surprised at that.

[Ian]

I think it would have just been seen as all the opposition parties fighting amongst themselves and the SNP would sort of just float on. So we took the decision to abandon it because it would have cost us quite a lot of money to do.

[Tess]

Yeah, but it's interesting as well because of course, John Swinney, reasonably decent man, horribly, I think naive in terms of his politics, but I think that about all independent candidates. But he's dull as ditch water, so anything he's on kills listeners anyway. He probably got off scot free there, to be honest with you. It would have been a massive killjoy moment.

[Ian]

I do think it's a shame because elections are about debating and we have a good listenership in Scotland and I think the SNP have basically let them down.

[Tess]

I know the expression is he's had a personality bypass. That's it. You used to use that a lot at school. Poor old John Swinny. I remember him arguing over the kitchen table with my dad. He said, any bugger who votes for the SNP around here is thick. You must be thick, man. Get out the door. And I stand by that. I just think it makes no sense in a joined up world. Brexit proves that. Mentioned it. We go to a break.

[Ian]

Right, a few questions and comments here. This is from Rich Dyson who does the photographs My Edinburgh Fringe shows. He's done it for the last few years. He says. Hello, Ian, I hope you're well. I heard Tess mention that you would be discussing Scottish politics today. I thought I'd share my experience to support Tess's trail. As you would expect, I've been covering Scottish elections events over the last few weeks. However. However, despite many efforts of contacting press teams, I've only been able to get on the list of three of the six parties in the Scottish election from speaking with other photographers. The same parties are also restricting access to a few photographers. Generally the main agency, Snappers From PA and Getty, three of the parties, Scottish Greens, Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Liberal Democrats, have been open to welcoming photographers to their events. Again, this is common to the other snappers I've discussed the issue with. The second issue I see with Scottish journalism was a gain trail by Tess Cool, Obviously a fan of yours, and that is the lack of money in the Scottish media. As a freelancer, my income depends on the rates newspapers will pay for Images. Over the 14 years I've been covering Scottish politics, the picture rates have steadily declined to the point where I don't send to one of the entirely Scottish broadsheets because I know that they don't have the budget to cover parking, never mind my time. With the financial incentive to reporting becoming less and less, it concerns me that the fourth estate in Scotland will provide less and less scrutiny of Scotland's government. Hopefully I'll see you again in August at the Fringe. Well, you will, Rich, and I'm very delighted that you do the photographs. My vet sense, because I think virtually every event that we do one of Rich's pictures gets in the press in many of the Scottish newspapers. So I hope I can provide you with a bit of income, Rich.

[Tess]

As we've been on air, of course, this appalling attack in Golders Green has been unfolding. And a couple of comments on our Instagram, where politics meetshistory. The nature of the appalling attack and what can be done to. To stop these attacks on Jewish people.

[Ian]

Well, I'll tell you, one thing that could be done is closing the Iranian embassy and chucking the Iranian ambassador out after the disgraceful statement that they put out the other day urging Iranians in Britain to sacrifice their lives for Iran, that is go and kill Jews. That was the effective message on it. And I think the Foreign Office Minister, Hamish Faulkner, has called in the Iranian ambassador for an interview without coffee. But he needs to go further than that. I mean, that was an outrageous thing to do, don't you think?

[Tess]

Yeah, I'm always worried about kicking out ambassadors if you have to. If at the moment. I mean, let's see. At the moment, this attack is unfolding and it's horrific. We don't know the genesis of it in terms of the individual who's perpetrated it. At least we didn't when we came in to record the pod. But I worry in a very different context about closing the door entirely on Iran, because the only way you're going to resolve the conflict in the Middle east, the Strait of Hormuz still closed Etcetera, Is through communication, not through collateral and bonds.

[Ian]

Well, I would normally agree with you on that, but I think there comes a point where people cross the line and I mean, I'm surprised the Russian ambassador frankly is still here.

[Tess]

Yeah, that shocks me more in some

[Ian]

ways when I see him being interviewed, not least on our own station. I mean I, I don't think we should be interviewing him frankly, because the

[Tess]

Russians actually invaded, full scale invasion of Ukraine and we are Ukraine's ally. Whereas we know it's a much more murky story in the Middle east, east at the moment as to the, the genesis of the war and the justification for the war. But let's just stick with the streets of London if we may. This is within a month, isn't it? Since the last attack. The usual exclamations of horror from our party leaders. But how do you stop Jews feeling afraid in Britain?

[Ian]

Well, if I had the answer to that, then they wouldn't be feeling afraid. I think this is where I, I think it's really difficult for politicians because there is, there is no single answer. Because the moment you, you take emergency steps to protect synagogues, Jewish community centers,

[Tess]

often they protect themselves. They pay for.

[Ian]

I know, I know, security guards.

[Tess]

My Jewish friend in Hull, in their Hull synagogue, they have a sort of bloke, they pay, she mainly just drinks coffee, has a bit of a bar, you know, every Sunday.

[Ian]

And I think the Metropolitan police have a responsibility here. It's no point in saying as they have done today after this attack, well, we're going to increase patrols. Well, they should have done that weeks ago. I mean maybe they have to an extent, I don't know. But that would be one thing because visible policing in areas where there is a substantial Jewish population that would send a signal to those who wish harm on Jews.

[Tess]

It was interesting, I was listening to the rabbi, one of the rabbis from Golda Green speak to the BBC just before we came in to record the POD and you know, doing that existential quest for answers in the fog of grief and shock. And he said we just need to talk to each other more. This sort of idea, the way in which we've allowed ourselves.

[Ian]

That's what, well, let's say we'll have a group hug. I mean, that's what that says. I mean that's not a solution to this at all.

[Tess]

But I thought he was actually speaking more broadly to the Balkanization or the splintering of national conversation where we no longer have kind of shared ideas about right or wrong or a kind of Collective cohesive idea of, you know, the ways to approach certain international situations. And I think we've allowed ourselves to be dragged into a sort of yabu sucks. You're either on the Palestinians, you know, and that bleeding into or refracted through into a judgment on a group of people who live thousands of miles away in Britain. And I wonder how you overturn that. I was fascinated by the exchange between Tucker Carlson and Laura Kloonsberg, Victoria Derbyshire, Laura Klunsberg's replacement on Sunday Morning Live a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if you saw it. It was extraordinary watching where he challenged.

[Ian]

They actually had Tucker Carlson on the Laura Keensbury show.

[Tess]

Yes. And they had.

[Ian]

Why?

[Tess]

They had. It's a fascinating interview and I would urge you to watch it. We needed Laura Kloensberg there because Victoria Derbyshire wasn't of sufficient hef to be able to push back or challenge his thinking. He was challenging hers, I. E. The establishments. Because she's not allowed to think, poor woman. As a sort of, you know, the

[Ian]

very disparaging about Victoria.

[Tess]

No, no, no.

[Ian]

But she's going to say she's not

[Tess]

allowed to think as in. As a partial human being because she was the BBC. So he was leveling at her as if she was a sort of spokesperson for Britishness cast through the prison of the BBC. His point being that America has more freedom of speech, that, you know, there are Palestinian action kind of clamping down on any kind of groups or descent. And this way in which the Benjamin Netanyahu had been able to weaponize an idea of his version of Israel and for that to bleed into the safety of Jews worldwide and his speaking to that narrative. I'm not anti Semitic, you know, in one breath and in the same breath, you know, absolutely smashing into Britain's handling of the conflict on our streets, if you like, or the tensions on our streets was. It was really interesting. And she was left without a response. Everyone saw.

[Ian]

I had a similar experience last night, right. Some friend of mine who I first met when he was interning in Parliament in 1987 and we've kept in touch ever since. I was hoping to see him in Washington and he phones me while I'm at the airport leaving Washington. I saw your timing is immaculate. I've been really busy. So anyway, he started and he's not a Trumpist, but he's certainly on the right of American politics. He started going on about freedom of speech in this country, which has become a big thing over there. And I will admit that I found it quite difficult to argue against some of the points he was making because they have their sort of constitutional freedom of speech rights, which we don't have. And we do have laws that, that can.

[Tess]

That sort of say you can't put up a placard saying Palestine Action if the group's been prescribed.

[Ian]

But more generally we have hate speech laws.

[Tess]

Yeah, we do.

[Ian]

And then people have been taken to court for things they've put on Twitter. And I can't defend that, I'm afraid, almost regardless of what they've said. I mean, if you say, if you incite people to kill, fine, I'd get that. But some of the cases that the police have launched, and I think they're pulling back from that now, but kind of the horse has bolted and I found myself not being. Or I didn't feel that I really put forward a very convincing argument.

[Tess]

But the other interesting thing about Tucker Carlson was he's speaking sort of from the. He's right of maga, isn't he? In some ways he's coming from this isolationist perspective.

[Ian]

Increasingly conspiracy theorists too.

[Tess]

Yeah. But where they also feel very let down by the Trump administration. Administration. Because this wasn't what they were promised. They were promised peace.

[Ian]

And this was a guy that people thought Trump would appoint to his administration.

[Tess]

Indeed. And actually they blame Israel for a large part of Trump delinquency as they see it, because they're so anti the war in Iran. And it was fascinating to watch how he wrong footed Victoria. But it reminded me if, as you've said, a very accomplished broadcaster found it that hard to ask articulate in front of this man who was obviously very well versed in his thesis. It pointed to where we've got to in the world, where you've had this continual violent Middle Eastern story, 7th of October, then the war in Gaza and the appalling conflict and violence there, now the war in Iran and how different ideas of the the blame or the genesis has ended up allowing antisemitism to not just rear its ugly head, because let's not pretend anti Semitism ever went anywhere but to actually be a threat, a real, a physical threat on the streets of Britain today.

[Ian]

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

[Tess]

And by the way, I'm also going to park some of it on Benjamin Netanyahu because we've talked about this before. The way in which he suggests criticism of what he does, his executive does is somehow able to be conflated as. As anti Jewish.

[Ian]

Right. Another question from Barry in air.

[Tess]

Ian, I just want that's where your ancestors come from.

[Ian]

It is near there.

[Tess]

That's why you've got an annoying extra eye in your name.

[Ian]

I just wanted to say thank you for the interview you gave me for my university assignment last year. Just got the results and got 74% and your insight genuinely made a difference, so I really appreciate it. Also, it went down a storm on University of West Scotland radio station. Question for you.

[Tess]

Bark at you, Ian.

[Ian]

I'm big in air. Question for you both. What one moment in Scottish political history do you think really helps explain what's going on just now? Oh my God, what a question.

[Tess]

Give me that again, that last little bit.

[Ian]

What one moment in Scottish political history do you think explains what's going on just now? I'm not sure what you mean by what's going on just now.

[Tess]

Okay, well, I'm gonna tank in. I grew up in 1980s Scotland and what Thatcher did to Scotland, I think, and the way in which it left

[Ian]

us, it's gonna trigger me, don't you? When you.

[Tess]

It's the end of the pod.

[Ian]

You know, I'm at my tiredest and weakest.

[Tess]

Get to walk away in two minutes.

[Ian]

Yeah, well, no, we've got to hear about Corey's stagger first.

[Tess]

I. I would say that you don't get away with neglecting a significant, you know, a nation, one of four nations in the way that she did without paying the price. And chickens came home to roost with it. Basically made devolution an inevitability. I blamed Bear Blair earlier, but I think whether it's the Smith's Chris factory or before, it is it started or it or after. And don't forget, you had before that the oil. So you had ideas of Scotland being emboldened financially by the discovery of oil, particularly in the 70s. You then have Thatcher looking like she's reaped the rewards and kicked the door in at the same time. And that meant that the way was paved for a different spirited nationalist agenda.

[Ian]

I. I just can't be bothered to argue with on that.

[Tess]

Got him on the ropes. It's a bit like Keir Starmer, but.

[Ian]

But I'm going to pick the Indiref of September 2014 as the key moment because everyone thought that put the nationalist genie back in the bottle. It did exactly the reverse. And I think that had in 2016, we had voted to remain. I don't think the Brexit genie would have gone away at all. And I think that whole debate would have mired our politics even more, even worse than it has since 2016, but sort of on in the other way. And I think there would have inevitably then been another referendum and our whole country would have effectively stopped functioning because of that debate.

[Tess]

I disagree insofar as Richard agrees on anything in this podcast exacerbated the calls for the independence Reformation. Reformation might have that effect. Seismic and spiritual. Spiritual change. I think that because it led to a serious change of constitutional circumstances that gives intellectual heft to the idea. Therefore, the Scots deserve another referendum whether they're not too f to have another independence referention. Now they've seen what? Damage.

[Ian]

It's a very good word that, isn't it?

[Tess]

Damaged.

[Ian]

Alex Salmond used to use it a lot.

[Tess]

Well, I think with. Right. They can feel fit. The other final anomaly is just because we discussed at the beginning of the pod, you know, why populists get voted in whether the country's doing well or not economically. It's fascinating to me that Nigel Farage, who's the architect of Brexit, looks like he might become the next Prime Minister. And yet most people when polled nationally think Brexit's been bad for our own economy.

[Ian]

Now, I think Corrie needs to put up the third microphone and then enter the vestibule so he can be held to account for his actions in Prague over the weekend where he was on a stag do with. I think it was friends from school and he did have some advice given to him as to how to enjoy a stag weekend in. In Prague from a friend of mine. For the many listeners will know as more Dan and what we all want to know, Corey, is did you take Dan's advice? I think it's important at this point to state that when you receive advice from Dan, it is very important that you do not follow it. I did not follow a single letter of that advice. I want that to be on the record.

[Tess]

I would like to put on the record that Corrie has returned to Britain physically maimed.

[Ian]

Yes, in two places. And he's shown me both of them.

[Tess]

I know.

[Ian]

And me and you. Thank God for that. A little bit of a graze on this leg. Well, beer can do. It's quite a big gray.

[Tess]

Did it need stitches?

[Ian]

No. Well, if it did. And can we discuss the circumstances in which these injuries were sustained, Young Corey? A little bit of beer was had because it's very cheap. A little bit.

[Tess]

He was wankered like a true Brit aboard that mate Corey, innit? Oh, Was it Jet 2? Did you fly on Jet 2 and

[Ian]

get too pissed for the air Jet 2 is great.

[Tess]

Apparently everyone gets pissed and they sometimes have to do detours via Sofia in Bulgaria because the clientele are so rowdy.

[Ian]

So how many steins did you have? I think it was.

[Tess]

Oh, God.

[Ian]

This is. I'm a professional, by the way. Everyone.

[Tess]

But I suppose we had about, maybe,

[Ian]

I'll be honest, about eight or nine. Nine.

[Tess]

Jesus. Remember, Ian doesn't drink. It's like talking to the Virgin Mary about sex.

[Ian]

I did. I did drink when I was in America. Yeah, I had a Perno and black currant and then a vodka and orange. What is Perno? Well, I think it tastes like cough mixture, but it's got a licorice taste to it. It.

[Tess]

Could we end the pod now? There's lots of cutting to be done. By the way, Corey, not just your leg, mate.

[Ian]

Right, well, this. As everyone will know, this episode has gone out a day early. But the next one, we'll be back on bank holiday Monday because bizarrely, I've said I'll work because I thought, well, it's election week, so I have to work. So I'm unusually working a bank holiday. So we will reconvene next Monday and that puts POD will go out on Tuesday. So it'll be the last one before the May election. So I suspect we may concentrate our fire on those elections next week. It's been a pleasure. I'm now going to fall asleep for the next two hours, which is what

[Tess]

most of our listeners might have done.

[Ian]

I know, and I'm sorry if I found I've sounded a little bit tired.

[Tess]

Cranky assholes.

[Ian]

That's because I am.

[Tess]

And I've had with. With the King's visit and my Romanian shebang and my friend.

[Ian]

Well, you must be Reiki it in.

[Tess]

I'm not. When I say to people you earn 10 times more than me, I mean it. And of course, you're worth every penny. Love you all. Let's record a trail to advertise our wares. Hey up, hey up. Roll up and listen.

[Ian]

This has been a global player original production.

[Tess]

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